Latest / Sales Pipeline Radio / What’s Empathy Got To Do With B2B Marketing?!

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What’s Empathy Got To Do With B2B Marketing?! · Sales Pipeline Radio

• 0:16
  Matt Heinz: All right, back here, day two of Forrester B2B Summit.
• 0:19
  We're live here on the marketplace floor.
• 0:22
  Thanks again to Forrester for making this possible.
• 0:24
  We did 10 interviews, Helen yesterday.
• 0:26
  10, 10 episodes of Sales Pipeline Radio.
• 0:29
  We got another eight-ish today.
• 0:31
  So it's just a content machine over here sitting in the corner.
• 0:34
  But yeah, excited to be here.
• 0:36
  And really, it's been fun to talk to analysts.
• 0:38
  It's been fun to talk to some of the practitioners walking around that are
• 0:41
  in the pit trying to get this work done.
• 0:43
  Great to talk to a number of ROI award winners and excited
• 0:46
  to have Helen Baptist here.
• 0:47
  Helen, I don't even know how to introduce you.
• 0:48
  Like normally I've got like someone's title, like you're just, a woman of
• 0:51
  the people, you are a multi exit, multi-time COO, running all of the things.
• 0:57
  You're a force.
• 0:58
  Helen Baptist: Thanks Matt.
• 0:59
  It's a pleasure to be here with you.
• 1:00
  Honestly, I think more like a friend and a brother, than just somebody
• 1:05
  who's in the network and it's a privilege to be on podcast or radio
• 1:09
  with you, whatever we're calling this.
• 1:10
  Matt Heinz: Podcast radio.
• 1:11
  I will, I don't think I've told you this, but I've mentioned it before.
• 1:13
  I was in the radio broadcasting club in high school.
• 1:18
  And we're not on video, but you should see the look I just got from Helen.
• 1:22
  It was one of those,
• 1:22
  Helen Baptist: a voice for radio.
• 1:23
  Matt Heinz: It was one of those, you should not say that out loud.
• 1:25
  It is a voice for radio.
• 1:26
  We basically, there were five of us and we would, every once in a while there was a
• 1:29
  sponsor teacher who was super into it and every once in a while we'd get together
• 1:32
  at lunch and like just practice recording commercial reads into tape recorders.
• 1:36
  That's what we did.
• 1:37
  Helen Baptist: So I wanted to be, a little known fact, a sports broadcaster.
• 1:41
  Yeah.
• 1:42
  I have a physical education degree from McMaster University
• 1:44
  and I managed the rugby team and I wrote all the articles Yeah.
• 1:47
  For the school newspaper.
• 1:49
  Yeah.
• 1:49
  And then I wanted to be one, but you know, there weren't that many back in the day.
• 1:52
  Yeah.
• 1:53
  Now I think about some of the, you know, Sarah Walsh and Erin Andrews and mm-hmm.
• 1:58
  The women that are in sports broadcasting.
• 2:00
  But this is divergent and I feel like I'm doing a Brent
• 2:02
  Adamson Friday call with you.
• 2:05
  Matt Heinz: That's what we do here.
• 2:05
  I told you right before, like we were, I had two CMOs on yesterday
• 2:09
  and we were talking about like AI integration or some bullshit like that.
• 2:11
  And then we finally realized that we all had teenage boys and then
• 2:14
  it got really interesting, right?
• 2:16
  Yeah.
• 2:16
  So that's where, to your point, that's where like, getting together in person.
• 2:19
  And as even as technology creeps into the go-to-market motions and eventually
• 2:24
  maybe robots sell to robots, we're still gonna exist in this world.
• 2:27
  And our lizard brains wanna make connection with each other.
• 2:29
  And those connections are not usually over sales integration.
• 2:32
  It's usually over bacon stuff.
• 2:34
  It's bacon.
• 2:35
  It's bacon.
• 2:36
  It's
• 2:37
  Helen Baptist: yeah, Matt actually sent me a package of his homemade bacon one time.
• 2:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:40
  And it arrived a day when I wasn't there.
• 2:43
  Oh.
• 2:43
  And the dry ice was kind of.
• 2:45
  Getting done.
• 2:46
  Yeah.
• 2:46
  But the bacon was still delicious.
• 2:47
  Yeah.
• 2:47
  But thank you.
• 2:48
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 2:48
  No, the nice thing about bacon is if you send it frozen, if you
• 2:51
  send it in the right package, you can send it across the country.
• 2:53
  And if you're there, it's gonna come.
• 2:54
  And it's still gonna be cold, frozen, maybe not quite frozen.
• 2:56
  What is it still frozen?
• 2:57
  It's still frozen.
• 2:57
  Oh, see, that's good.
• 2:58
  Yeah.
• 2:58
  So thank you.
• 2:58
  Yeah.
• 2:58
  There's a family ranch in California that we sometimes order from.
• 3:01
  Helen Baptist: Five Marys
• 3:02
  Matt Heinz: said Five Marys.
• 3:03
  That's right.
• 3:03
  And they will send it all in this like prepackaged thing with all
• 3:06
  the dry ice and it's fantastic.
• 3:08
  It's like a lot more expensive than buying it for the supermarket, but
• 3:10
  you know where it's coming from.
• 3:11
  Helen Baptist: Yeah.
• 3:11
  You know where the meat's coming from,
• 3:12
  Matt Heinz: You know where it's coming from.
• 3:13
  You know that they put a lot of care into, you know, it's a
• 3:15
  small family business doing it.
• 3:16
  Yeah.
• 3:17
  So there's something to be said.
• 3:18
  Helen Baptist: I think the relationship to this conversation is
• 3:20
  about small family business and you know where things are coming from.
• 3:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 3:23
  In that the CMO and the marketing team is usually a small family
• 3:27
  business inside a large organization.
• 3:30
  And that's a stretch.
• 3:31
  I get it.
• 3:32
  Matt Heinz: But a little bit.
• 3:32
  But let's talk about, the analogy I think is interesting.
• 3:34
  There is the relationships, right?
• 3:36
  Yeah.
• 3:36
  The relationship you have where you have a foundation of trust.
• 3:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 3:40
  If you're gonna go and like, 'cause none of us run businesses or a
• 3:42
  part of businesses that are easy and it's always smooth sailing.
• 3:45
  It's always gonna be hard or get hard.
• 3:47
  But the people you do that with, the people you can have those arguments with.
• 3:51
  If you have a strong foundation of trust That's right.
• 3:54
  You can get through those moments and figure it out.
• 3:56
  And I don't know, man, in my career, I think about the places that haven't
• 3:59
  always been the easiest to work, but the places where I have gotten the most value
• 4:02
  and it's because we cared about each other and we were there for each other.
• 4:05
  Helen Baptist: Yeah, I think that the business, especially in private
• 4:08
  equity backed or VC backed, and maybe even more so in public, I
• 4:11
  don't know, but where there are other people's money on the table.
• 4:15
  Yeah.
• 4:16
  The human component of work is, and it's been hard, right?
• 4:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 4:21
  For the last five years of remote and all that other stuff.
• 4:24
  But I think through the power of things like the CMO Coffee Talk from
• 4:27
  6sense and the Empowered CMO or CXO as they're calling it this year mm-hmm.
• 4:32
  There is a network of people that you can have life stories with, right?
• 4:37
  Yeah.
• 4:37
  So I lost my mom.
• 4:38
  I talked to you about it.
• 4:39
  Yeah, I've talked to a bunch of other people.
• 4:41
  There's some people who've been through cancer and life changing situations.
• 4:46
  And then there's these emerging CMOs who are in their first CMO
• 4:49
  role where, you know, you're sitting at the table and you're talking.
• 4:52
  I just came from a breakfast, actually.
• 4:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 4:55
  An Empowered CMO breakfast and talking about how do you make sure
• 4:59
  you get the right compensation Yep.
• 5:00
  And how do you present yourself to the board and make sure that you're
• 5:03
  not the arts and crafts department.
• 5:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:05
  And the way that I've always thought about it in that role of being either the
• 5:09
  Chief Strategy Officer or the Chief Market Officer or the Chief Operating Officer.
• 5:15
  You look at my titles, that those are all the same kind of role.
• 5:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:18
  Is that I think about the CEO has one job if you're in private equity
• 5:22
  or VC-backed, is he or they are trying to sell the company mm-hmm.
• 5:26
  For the shareholders to get their money.
• 5:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:28
  So I always think about three pipelines.
• 5:31
  Yeah.
• 5:31
  Three funnels, whichever way you wanna talk about it.
• 5:33
  The first is obviously the marketing funnel.
• 5:36
  Am I driving enough through the funnel?
• 5:39
  Do I have enough materials and content to enable the sellers?
• 5:43
  Look, I don't play the attribution game, I'll say that.
• 5:45
  I've never done attribution.
• 5:46
  What I look at is do I have enough velocity and volume in the Pipeline Yeah.
• 5:50
  To hit our numbers, whatever the goal is, and can I accelerate the
• 5:53
  conversion rates and improve those over a trailing five quarter thing?
• 5:57
  Traditional kind of marketing stuff.
• 5:59
  The second funnel, obviously is the Pipeline and the conversion
• 6:01
  through that and understanding where you're getting stuck and having
• 6:04
  very clear entry and exit criteria.
• 6:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:07
  But the one that we don't talk about a lot is the investor funnel.
• 6:10
  Yeah.
• 6:10
  And whether that's investor for fundraising or an exit
• 6:13
  or a strategic acquisition.
• 6:16
  And yet there's the same plays are in play.
• 6:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:18
  Like how do you warm those people up
• 6:20
  Yeah.
• 6:21
  To buy.
• 6:22
  And believe mm-hmm.
• 6:24
  Whatever you're selling mm-hmm.
• 6:25
  The selling the company, right?
• 6:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:27
  And selling the product vision the unique IP that you might have or otherwise.
• 6:31
  So, as you're an emerging CMO, if you're listening to this, take a look.
• 6:35
  Matt Heinz: Yep.
• 6:36
  Helen Baptist: What story do you need to tell about the market?
• 6:40
  To the people that might wanna buy from you.
• 6:42
  Yep.
• 6:42
  What competitive intrusion are happening.
• 6:44
  Use your data analytics tools, or voice recordings to mine
• 6:49
  for competitive intrusions.
• 6:50
  Think about things like, how do you get your team to realize that you
• 6:54
  need to warm up those investors?
• 6:57
  Yeah.
• 6:58
  Is it because you're gonna play a strategic partnership in quotations or
• 7:01
  they're in your ecosystem and therefore you might want to steal some of their
• 7:07
  customers or partner with their customers?
• 7:09
  And I think about, in the MarTech industry particularly, which
• 7:11
  is where I spent some time.
• 7:13
  Matt Heinz: Yeah, I think I could make the case that the Chief Market Officer's
• 7:17
  primary role is product market fit.
• 7:20
  And not just like defining that in the market, but also deciding what should
• 7:24
  be in market and making sure that there is a market for what you're building.
• 7:28
  And the way I've sort of described that is say, look, if you ask a sales
• 7:31
  team, what do you need from marketing?
• 7:32
  Like they're probably gonna say leads, right?
• 7:35
  But leads is simply a manifestation of a market that craves what you're selling.
• 7:40
  And so, you don't need to create leads if the market is beating down
• 7:43
  your door and there's never gonna be a build it and they will come.
• 7:46
  But if you nail product market fit, then you're gonna have a lot easier
• 7:50
  time driving and building Pipeline.
• 7:52
  Yeah.
• 7:53
  Because you're in the right place at the right time.
• 7:54
  Helen Baptist: Yeah.
• 7:55
  I think the effort that you put into positioning, messaging, ICP
• 8:01
  development and your campaign strategies underneath that mm-hmm.
• 8:06
  Is probably one of the most underrated value that the CMO brings to the table.
• 8:12
  Yep.
• 8:13
  And it has to be infused with the voice of the customer, the voice
• 8:16
  of the competitors, et cetera.
• 8:18
  So, you know.
• 8:19
  I look at, there's no Chief Financing Officer,
• 8:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:23
  There's no Chief Executiving Officer.
• 8:26
  Right.
• 8:26
  Take the verb out of the title.
• 8:29
  Yeah.
• 8:30
  And own the market.
• 8:31
  And market is about selling product and you have to have fit.
• 8:35
  So to your point, product market fit.
• 8:38
  You have to help drive the product roadmap based on the changes in the marketplace
• 8:42
  or competitors or whatever, what your customers are saying to you they need.
• 8:47
  So yeah, you're absolutely right.
• 8:49
  It is about representing the product and the market fit
• 8:52
  Matt Heinz: Well and you just came from the Empowered breakfast.
• 8:54
  I give a lot of credit to Latane for the work she's done to really evangelize
• 8:57
  that Chief Market Officer role.
• 8:59
  And it's not just about the title, it's about what that role represents
• 9:02
  and what that role needs to and should own, and we're sitting here in the
• 9:07
  midst of what I think might be sort of a critical moment for the Chief
• 9:10
  Market or Marketing Officer role.
• 9:11
  A lot of talk about like, is that really someone that should be at
• 9:15
  the C-suite should, a lot more heads of marketing are reporting to CROs.
• 9:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:19
  A lot more companies are thinking about marketing as a support
• 9:23
  function for the go to market teams.
• 9:26
  I believe that is short selling the opportunity.
• 9:28
  I think that's leaving a lot on the table.
• 9:29
  I think that's thinking about the near term needs of the business
• 9:31
  while sacrificing the long-term value and health of the business.
• 9:35
  Curious what you think about it.
• 9:36
  Helen Baptist: I a hundred percent agree.
• 9:37
  I think that the Chief Market Oficer has to balance pipeline
• 9:42
  generation and brand awareness.
• 9:44
  And if you put that position underneath a revenue officer.
• 9:49
  You don't have the latitude and the permission and the
• 9:53
  grace to focus on brand.
• 9:56
  You are always focused on demand and pipe, and I think that that
• 10:00
  is very shortsighted because.
• 10:03
  Accounts aren't always in market, and if you don't have brand
• 10:07
  awareness, you can't build pipe.
• 10:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:10
  Right.
• 10:10
  I think Kerry Cunningham from 6sense quote, and I like, we're talking about
• 10:13
  6sense a lot, but 6sense has done some research that like only 2 or
• 10:17
  3% of accounts are in purchase mode.
• 10:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:21
  They are doing their homework, 90% of the journey is done before they
• 10:24
  have four or five vendors in mind before they even contact the company.
• 10:29
  And how do they know about you?
• 10:30
  That is a brand awareness factor.
• 10:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:33
  Where does brand manifest itself in the marketing that you do?
• 10:36
  In the communities that you're in, in the relationships that you have.
• 10:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:40
  And so the Chief Market Officer also has to be somewhat of an evangelist.
• 10:45
  In my mind for that brand.
• 10:47
  Again, talking about how it fits the needs of the market, and then that
• 10:52
  builds in the extra pipeline factor.
• 10:55
  Matt Heinz: You mentioned earlier, prioritizing velocity.
• 10:58
  I don't think a lot of people know what that means or how it's defined
• 11:01
  or how even to operationalize it.
• 11:03
  Can you unpack that a little bit?
• 11:04
  Helen Baptist: Yeah.
• 11:04
  One of the key metrics that I always look at is obviously everybody looks
• 11:08
  at conversion rates through those different funnels, whether it's the
• 11:12
  marketing funnel or the Sales Pipeline.
• 11:14
  Yeah.
• 11:14
  Everybody's trying to improve those conversion rates to the end of CAGR.
• 11:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:19
  CAGR has two levers to pull on mm-hmm.
• 11:22
  Velocity.
• 11:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:22
  Which is the speed by which those things move through the different stages.
• 11:26
  Right.
• 11:27
  And the conversion rates.
• 11:28
  And if you can focus on both mm-hmm.
• 11:30
  Rather than just one, which is the conversion rates.
• 11:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:33
  You actually have a compounding factor on your net present value or NPV can
• 11:38
  accelerate even further and faster.
• 11:41
  So it's about making sure that you are monitoring both and that you're
• 11:46
  identifying the factors and attributes that increase that velocity as well.
• 11:52
  Matt Heinz: There's concepts like velocity, NPV, the rule of 40, like these
• 11:57
  things are foreign to a lot of marketers.
• 11:59
  Yeah.
• 11:59
  And even marketing leaders.
• 12:00
  But this is the language of how a lot of those growth businesses like talk and if
• 12:04
  you want credibility for your Chief Market Officer role or just marketing in general.
• 12:08
  Yeah.
• 12:09
  Like we have our own language of MQLs, SQLs, ABM.
• 12:13
  It'd be better for us to speak the language of the CFO and the board
• 12:17
  Helen Baptist: That's right.
• 12:17
  Matt Heinz: To be taken more seriously.
• 12:19
  Helen Baptist: Yeah.
• 12:19
  It's interesting 'cause I've exited four times and the CEO plays a critical role
• 12:24
  in that, but the best partnership mm-hmm.
• 12:26
  That I've ever have usually is with the CFO.
• 12:29
  Yeah.
• 12:29
  Because that is the person who has to report the financials and what
• 12:33
  we do is a factor of financials.
• 12:35
  Yep.
• 12:36
  I think the other part of it is, I think about it from a consumer perspective
• 12:39
  and you know, when you think about where people make their money in financial
• 12:43
  services like credit cards mm-hmm.
• 12:46
  It's on compound interest.
• 12:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:48
  It's on mm-hmm.
• 12:49
  net present value.
• 12:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:50
  It's on even in your retirement funds, if you wanna put it in a
• 12:53
  different light, a be a better light.
• 12:55
  Yep.
• 12:55
  Is what is the run rate in the market and how do you play the game.
• 12:59
  Where do you take more risk?
• 13:00
  Where do you not take risk based on your age of the company and yourself?
• 13:03
  Yeah, like I'm at the end of my career, and my husband and I are evaluating
• 13:07
  our retirement fund, and I have a high risk account, and he's older than me.
• 13:11
  He's retired.
• 13:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:12
  And he has a low risk account.
• 13:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:13
  Because he wants the longevity of that money to stay stable, especially
• 13:17
  in today's macroeconomics world.
• 13:18
  Right?
• 13:19
  And so that mindset is how I play in the CMO role is where's the risk
• 13:25
  and the reward going to come from?
• 13:27
  That's right.
• 13:27
  And how do I optimize and maximize the money that I have in a marketing budget
• 13:32
  or in a sales budget or whatever it is to the end of what is the board asking for?
• 13:37
  Are we a late stage in their funding?
• 13:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:40
  Are we early stage in their funding?
• 13:42
  Are they a new private equity or VC fund because they need a win.
• 13:46
  Right.
• 13:47
  So understanding the dynamics of who your owners are, what their objective
• 13:52
  is, what the CEO's role in that is.
• 13:55
  Yeah.
• 13:55
  Whether that is a builder or an operator or whether that is a
• 13:59
  run the business kind of person.
• 14:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:01
  Those are all things that I look at when I'm taking roles
• 14:03
  or I'm looking at companies.
• 14:06
  Matt Heinz: Why do you prioritize coming to an event like this?
• 14:09
  I mean, you know, it's a hassle to travel.
• 14:11
  We all get comfortable working from our home offices these days.
• 14:14
  It's so easy to do things through Zoom.
• 14:16
  I mean, all the keynotes and things that are happening in the other room.
• 14:18
  We can all watch those on YouTube later.
• 14:20
  Yeah.
• 14:20
  Why is it important still to come here in person?
• 14:22
  Helen Baptist: Well, first off, there are new entries into the marketplace mm-hmm.
• 14:26
  From a vendor perspective.
• 14:27
  So I'm always looking at who those are and who's investing in their marketing
• 14:31
  and what kind of marketing they're doing.
• 14:32
  So I'm trying to Yeah.
• 14:32
  Steal some potential best practices or not.
• 14:35
  Yeah, yeah.
• 14:36
  Avoid the dumpster fires that we talk about a lot.
• 14:38
  That's right.
• 14:39
  I also come to reaffirm my knowledge and my skillset from basically
• 14:44
  the ARs obviously the analysts.
• 14:46
  I also get some confidence from myself in terms of I am doing the right things.
• 14:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:53
  Or I'm actually ahead of some of the things that they're talking about.
• 14:57
  Yeah.
• 14:58
  And more importantly, I think for me it's about the relationships.
• 15:01
  Right.
• 15:02
  So I can walk around, it's like old home week.
• 15:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:04
  And I see a lot of people and I've seen clients, I've seen prospects,
• 15:08
  I've seen former employees, I've seen some of the analysts I've worked with.
• 15:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:12
  And for me it's about the community of B2B marketers.
• 15:17
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 15:17
  Yeah.
• 15:18
  I would agree.
• 15:19
  I think there's conversations you can have efficiently.
• 15:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:23
  Air quotes, from your home office, from zoom, from digital channels, but there's
• 15:28
  a depth of relationship that happens in person that is irreplaceable elsewhere,
• 15:32
  like you mentioned getting to know people on a personal level, like you and I have
• 15:35
  talked about sick and dying parents.
• 15:37
  Helen Baptist: That's right.
• 15:38
  Matt Heinz: Latane and I met at a conference and, within five
• 15:41
  minutes we were talking about our neurodiverse children.
• 15:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:43
  Right.
• 15:43
  And I can almost guarantee that that connection helped spark the
• 15:47
  relationship we had, which turned into a business relationship.
• 15:49
  And then here we are five years later doing CMO Coffee Talk together.
• 15:52
  That wouldn't have happened if we weren't together at a conference in Toronto.
• 15:55
  Helen Baptist: That's right.
• 15:55
  And I think one of the things my mom said is you'll always be authentically Helen.
• 16:00
  Yep.
• 16:01
  And I think the ability to be authentic in human, in person adds
• 16:08
  just this exponential multiplier of being able to be vulnerable Yeah.
• 16:15
  Or being human when you are on camera.
• 16:17
  Yeah.
• 16:18
  And so I'm forever grateful for, going through the five
• 16:22
  year journey with you all.
• 16:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:24
  At CMO Coffee Talks.
• 16:25
  I was on the first one, which was March 20th.
• 16:27
  You were 2019.
• 16:29
  Yeah.
• 16:29
  It was the first week of shutdown.
• 16:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:31
  In the United States and Canada.
• 16:32
  That's right.
• 16:33
  And that was a tumultuous time in life, right?
• 16:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:37
  We didn't know, was it the end of the world and then few
• 16:39
  weeks later was George Floyd.
• 16:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:42
  And we were managing people's lives.
• 16:45
  We had a lot of people looking to us to make informed decisions, and yet we
• 16:50
  weren't any more informed than they were.
• 16:52
  Right.
• 16:52
  And so this community has really allowed me to accelerate personally,
• 16:57
  professionally, emotionally, psychologically, there is a
• 17:01
  psychological safety within this group as well, is what I wanna say.
• 17:03
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 17:03
  No, I appreciate that.
• 17:04
  And that is something that I'm very proud of, to have a place where people
• 17:07
  lean in with each other, but also feel like they can sort of be themselves.
• 17:10
  Yeah.
• 17:10
  Admit to all of our fallibility.
• 17:13
  Do you remember we did a session on imposter syndrome?
• 17:15
  We had an author come and do a talk who's written a book about it, and at
• 17:18
  one point in the session we said, raise your hand if you have felt like or
• 17:21
  feel like you have imposter syndrome.
• 17:23
  Helen Baptist: Yep.
• 17:23
  Matt Heinz: And I think 93% of people raised their hand.
• 17:25
  And the other 7% were not paying attention.
• 17:27
  They must have been multitasking,
• 17:29
  Helen Baptist: riding their bikes or walking.
• 17:30
  Right.
• 17:31
  Exactly.
• 17:31
  Matt Heinz: Which is totally fine.
• 17:32
  It's totally fine.
• 17:33
  But like I had people call me for both sessions afterward.
• 17:35
  Multiple people say, I thought it was just me.
• 17:37
  No, and these are heads of marketing.
• 17:39
  These are very successful senior people who have clearly been very successful
• 17:42
  in their career and yet, A, they have imposter syndrome and B, they thought
• 17:46
  they were the only ones with it.
• 17:47
  Helen Baptist: Yeah.
• 17:48
  It's interesting.
• 17:49
  I think, as, again, I've been in the business for too long.
• 17:52
  I have imposter syndrome, I'm changing jobs again and that
• 17:56
  interview process and the rejection.
• 17:59
  But I had this conversation with a woman this morning actually at the
• 18:01
  Empowered CMO breakfast, and I try to diverge from what is my job mm-hmm.
• 18:07
  To balancing, how do I make other people grow and feel better?
• 18:12
  Okay.
• 18:12
  Yeah.
• 18:12
  Right.
• 18:12
  When things are shitty at work, sometimes the wins that
• 18:15
  other people are having Yeah.
• 18:17
  Allows me the grace to feel good every now and then, right?
• 18:20
  That I've done something right?
• 18:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:22
  By promoting people, giving them opportunities to stretch, try new things.
• 18:28
  It's fun to see people grow in their career Yeah.
• 18:30
  Or want to work with you again.
• 18:31
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 18:32
  There's a book I think we talked about before called From Strength to Strength,
• 18:35
  and it talks about moving from the most productive times in your lives, which
• 18:38
  usually is like late twenties, early thirties, into later stages of your life.
• 18:42
  And I'm not at the end of my career yet but I'm closing in on 50 and
• 18:46
  I know that I got a lot of time to go, but, the book talks about
• 18:49
  going from dynamic intelligence, meaning you are doing and building
• 18:52
  things to crystallize intelligence.
• 18:54
  When all of your experience in learnings becomes wisdom.
• 18:57
  Yeah.
• 18:57
  Something you could not have had earlier in your career.
• 18:59
  Something that is, was frustrating to me early in my career.
• 19:02
  'cause I just wanted to move faster, but you literally need
• 19:04
  the time to get to the at bats.
• 19:06
  And so even though you cannot produce what you could in your earlier
• 19:09
  days, that knowledge is priceless.
• 19:11
  Yeah.
• 19:12
  And so to be able to think of that as like, this is now part
• 19:14
  of my gift back to others.
• 19:16
  So the question I guess, this is the first time I've heard you say you're
• 19:18
  towards the end of your career.
• 19:19
  I cannot imagine you retiring, first of all.
• 19:21
  I just, I don't understand that, but as someone who's like
• 19:23
  thinking about that mm-hmm.
• 19:25
  What advice do you have for others that are starting to come in here?
• 19:28
  For others that aren't at that stage and really haven't thought about it and
• 19:31
  have no idea how to even think about it.
• 19:33
  Helen Baptist: Yeah.
• 19:33
  Matt Heinz: What would be your advice to them?
• 19:37
  Helen Baptist: So it's contextual.
• 19:38
  I'll say this.
• 19:39
  My mother never graduated high school.
• 19:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:41
  She had dyslexia and yet she was one of the smartest women in the
• 19:44
  world and one of the kindest Yeah.
• 19:46
  She passed away a year and a half ago and there were 300 people at her wake.
• 19:51
  Yeah.
• 19:51
  Why?
• 19:52
  Because she gave back to people Yeah.
• 19:55
  In ways that they didn't even realize.
• 19:57
  Yeah.
• 19:58
  And so if you are starting out your career, if you are climbing.
• 20:03
  Think about what legacy you want to leave.
• 20:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:06
  And how do you start laying those stones that become the
• 20:09
  path for others to trail on.
• 20:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:12
  My personal one, and I've been working on it for 15 years, is resume making moments.
• 20:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:18
  How do I give people the opportunity and how do I tell them that they've
• 20:23
  actually had the resume making moment?
• 20:25
  'cause many people don't recognize it.
• 20:26
  That's, that's the other part, right?
• 20:27
  That's right.
• 20:27
  Is how do I give people the opportunity?
• 20:29
  How do I stretch 'em?
• 20:30
  How do I tap into their passion?
• 20:31
  Yeah.
• 20:32
  To either guide them in the role they're in mm-hmm.
• 20:35
  Or find them another new role Right.
• 20:37
  Where they can be highly successful.
• 20:38
  Right.
• 20:39
  And yet I often sit down and I say to people, you know you just had a resume
• 20:44
  making moment and I did this recently.
• 20:45
  Yeah.
• 20:46
  And the person I was talking to was like, what do you mean?
• 20:48
  And I said, you have just created something that didn't exist here.
• 20:51
  Matt Heinz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:53
  Helen Baptist: And so as you are growing up in your career is, think about.
• 20:57
  What your legacy might be.
• 20:59
  How will people talk about you at your funeral?
• 21:02
  Because this is a job and nobody's gonna talk about how good you were at your job.
• 21:06
  What you're gonna talk about is how were you as a human?
• 21:10
  Matt Heinz: I think about that at work, and I increasingly
• 21:12
  think about that at home.
• 21:13
  My kids are 15, 14, and 11, and I distinctly remember all of them being
• 21:17
  born, and yet now my daughter is driving and thinking about college.
• 21:21
  And I was telling someone earlier today, like I travel for work a lot.
• 21:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:24
  I'm not there every day.
• 21:26
  But I have never missed one of my son's wrestling meets, my daughter
• 21:29
  and I have a tradition of going to the Nutcracker every year.
• 21:32
  And this year we're gonna go see Romeo and Juliet at Pacific Northwest Ballet.
• 21:35
  And I wanted to see it and I wasn't sure if she'd want to, but
• 21:37
  she's like, yeah, we're going.
• 21:38
  Helen Baptist: Yeah.
• 21:38
  Matt Heinz: And it's those moments.
• 21:39
  You know, last night she was having a tough time on stuff, so we just called and
• 21:42
  talked for 40 minutes through some things.
• 21:44
  And even though I'm not there, just being there and being present and having
• 21:47
  those moments, life is a long time.
• 21:50
  Yes.
• 21:50
  And you can't be present all the time, but you can create those connections,
• 21:54
  you can create those moments, you can prioritize those moments.
• 21:58
  That's right.
• 21:59
  And it costs you nothing.
• 22:00
  Helen Baptist: It's interesting.
• 22:01
  My son is 26 and I went to a wedding, and he was the best man in the wedding.
• 22:06
  And I've never seen him speak publicly.
• 22:08
  Yeah.
• 22:09
  Except for high school.
• 22:10
  Right.
• 22:10
  You don't see it in college doing presentations.
• 22:12
  He has a full-time job.
• 22:13
  I don't see him do his job.
• 22:15
  Yeah.
• 22:16
  And yet people came up to me afterwards and said, great speech.
• 22:19
  But he's a great guy.
• 22:21
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 22:22
  Helen Baptist: And that's the legacy that I have in him.
• 22:25
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 22:25
  Helen Baptist: I want that for people who I know and work with.
• 22:29
  Matt Heinz: You know, it is such a simple answer, but I think about
• 22:31
  what's gonna make for a successful kid.
• 22:33
  And I think about that for all of our kids.
• 22:34
  And I worry about all of them, but I think I want them to launch with good values,
• 22:39
  with good heads on their shoulders.
• 22:40
  I want people to think of them as good people.
• 22:42
  Yeah.
• 22:43
  Right.
• 22:43
  Like you think about like people you hire, like you can hire people
• 22:46
  that are technically proficient at their job but are assholes.
• 22:48
  Helen Baptist: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Matt Heinz: And so you can hire people that are good value.
• 22:51
  I want values fit culture adds, and I want those people where
• 22:54
  that high degree of trust exists.
• 22:56
  Yeah.
• 22:56
  What we're doing here is not rocket science, right?
• 22:59
  Like it's getting increasingly more difficult.
• 23:01
  But this literally is not rocket science.
• 23:02
  This is a teachable thing.
• 23:04
  I'd rather find people that are the right foundation.
• 23:07
  Yeah.
• 23:08
  And build a business based on that, especially as a services business.
• 23:11
  Helen Baptist: Yeah.
• 23:11
  I totally agree with you.
• 23:13
  I think the values that you have in your home life and what other
• 23:18
  values people have as well.
• 23:20
  And look, I grew up all around the world.
• 23:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:22
  My parents were in the mining business.
• 23:23
  I've lived in Indonesia.
• 23:24
  I went to boarding school in Singapore.
• 23:25
  Yeah.
• 23:26
  I've traveled around the world probably 10 times.
• 23:29
  The ability to assimilate into a new environment.
• 23:33
  Yeah.
• 23:33
  I got that from traveling and moving around the world.
• 23:37
  I was the blonde girl in an Indonesian village.
• 23:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:40
  I was the outcast.
• 23:43
  Yeah.
• 23:43
  And so my tolerance for other peoples and perspectives is different.
• 23:47
  Yeah.
• 23:48
  And so I think, what values do you have?
• 23:50
  How can you bring other people's values to your value pool?
• 23:55
  How do you align, how do you interview for those?
• 23:58
  That's part of being a good CMO as well.
• 24:00
  Yeah, right.
• 24:00
  Is interviewing, so anyway.
• 24:01
  Matt Heinz: Yeah,
• 24:02
  Helen Baptist: I diverge.
• 24:02
  Matt Heinz: I love it.
• 24:03
  Helen, thank you for doing this.
• 24:04
  My life is better from getting to know you in the last five plus years.
• 24:08
  I just really appreciate your insights.
• 24:10
  You've inspired me and challenged me and just I'm so
• 24:13
  proud to consider you a friend.
• 24:13
  So thank you.
• 24:14
  Yeah,
• 24:14
  Helen Baptist: Matt, we've had some tough conversations in the last couple
• 24:17
  of months and so on and so forth, but I think the ability to have those
• 24:20
  conversations is because we are very good friends and we've invested in
• 24:24
  each other, and so keep investing.
• 24:26
  I am grateful for seeing you at five o'clock your time every
• 24:29
  Friday morning on CMO Coffee Talk.
• 24:32
  If you're not part of CMO Coffee Talk, and you are CMO or Head of Marketing.
• 24:36
  Reach out to Matt or Latane.
• 24:37
  Matt Heinz: Love to have you.
• 24:38
  Absolutely.
• 24:38
  Helen Baptist: The value in those relationships is impossible
• 24:41
  to measure, but truly there.
• 24:42
  But thank you, Matt, for having me on your podcast.
• 24:44
  I'm so thrilled to be here.
• 24:45
  Matt Heinz: Thank you for being here.
• 24:46
  Thanks for making the time and, enjoy the rest of the day.