Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Sound of Drums

Transcript

Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Sound of Drums · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blump pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:39
  Quicker, quicker 432 Welcome back to Hamster With a Blump Pen
• 0:44
  Knife, the Doctor Who Commentary Podcast.
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  I'm here today with the very English so he won't like me
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  complimenting him too much. Magnificent Toby Haydo.
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  Hello, Toby. Hello, Joe.
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  I've been listening and very English as I am.
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  I've been disapproving of the filth that you pedal.
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  So I'm glad we've chosen because there was a suggestion that I
• 1:08
  might have climbed aboard the filth train and I reject that's
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  just. Which is why I've chosen some
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  very sensible episodes. The the sound of drums, because
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  obviously you you don't like hearing a banging.
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  You don't like imagining A banging going on in your head,
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  do you? Repetitive banging.
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  Just banging in your head. Morning, noon and night and and
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  you don't you don't like you don't like thinking about
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  somebody else playing their own instrument, do you?
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  You or would you prefer playing the instrument yourself, Joe?
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  Thinking about this, I mean, and I felt I felt dirty doing it.
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  Garrulously accused of everybody, we're here today to
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  talk about the Sound of Drums and last of the Time Lords,
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  yeah? First foray into series 3.
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  I think this is a really, really strong season of the new series.
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  But I don't know what you think of this series overall, Joe, it
• 2:02
  was a marvelous time to be alive.
• 2:05
  I mean, it's funny, isn't it? You don't appreciate good things
• 2:10
  until they're in the past. Well, that's not quite true
• 2:12
  because I mean, it was amazing at the time and I just bought a
• 2:17
  DVD player that you could also record on as well.
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  So I was going to be making my own individual DVD's with their
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  own menus and stuff like that. Then sort of real life got in
• 2:26
  the way. But I remember that, you know,
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  that was a bit like when you were collecting your own old VH
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  S's and I used to make my own VHS covers and all of that sort
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  of thing suddenly is a great, you know, the wheel turns and
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  and the same old things happen, but you you manifest themselves
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  in different ways. But you know, Doctor, I remember
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  the trailer for this season. I remember hearing Freema
• 2:47
  Adjuman being announced and then her being interviewed on Radio
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  One I think and and you know, like they're doing now where you
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  get little bit pictures of costumes, little bits of
• 3:00
  trailers, little bits of this nice they they keep feeding the
• 3:04
  beast just to keep you know just to keep it alive.
• 3:08
  And I mean, I I sense that the public know about it and that's
• 3:13
  always exciting as a Doctor Who fan because it's yeah, it's nice
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  when when you've got something to look forward to, but when you
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  feel your thing is something that's on everybody's lips and
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  that is making waves and is making ripples.
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  And there was also the worry of course because you know we we'd
• 3:28
  already lost one Doctor but then we David and the Dayton as Billy
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  Piper had been so successful and then she went and you have that
• 3:34
  amazing bending to the previous season.
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  So now we've got things going okay.
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  Well now we've got a change of companion and Billy Piper been
• 3:41
  so important to the success. How is this going to work?
• 3:46
  And that new dynamic came in and of course it worked brilliantly
• 3:48
  there and they have the, you know, obviously they had, you
• 3:52
  know Rose and the Doctor will they won't lay whereas do they
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  don't lay and and with this one it's very much, you know, she
• 4:00
  likes him but he's oblivious because they couldn't repeat the
• 4:03
  same dynamic. It's a hard it's a hard thing to
• 4:05
  do isn't it but they but there was you know there was still an
• 4:08
  attempt to cover that element of does the the you know do the
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  companion and the Doctor you know have have something beyond
• 4:15
  the friendship and and you know finding out how the series moves
• 4:20
  on from that. It's one thing to launch a
• 4:22
  series and have a dynamic that sort of works but then when the
• 4:26
  series, if the series is going to be as long running as Doctor
• 4:28
  was first time around, things have to keep getting mixed up
• 4:31
  and it keeps having to reinvent itself.
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  So there was always a worry that the magic would not be repeated
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  or that they would drop the ball or that and and they kind of
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  never did. And I I mean I remember this
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  series being, you know we're, I mean especially at this point
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  when you get to sound of Drums we're on the back of human
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  nature family blood and and then and then Utopia is.
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  I'm glad, by the way, that we're not doing that thing where we're
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  doing Utopia Slash, Sound of drums, Slash, Last of the Time
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  Lords, because I think of Utopia as a separate episode, even.
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  Though I it is. But it's it's it's not it's it's
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  it's the mission to the unknown, to the Daleks master plan of
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  rather than episode one of a three parter from.
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  I mean it doesn't form a lot of and just in a very bleak moment
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  yeah I I can understand people who want to lump the three
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  together but they're not welcome in my house.
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  But no it was good. But look I'm looking at it now.
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  I mean, I I remember the being a bit of a a the the the Dalek the
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  Dalek 2 Parter and and Lazarus Experiment had been a slight
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  dip. I mean it was but the but but
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  but just in terms of because the bar was so high they were still
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  great but they were as close to being sort of you know, run of
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  run-of-the-mill if you like, but but a great you know, gridlock
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  I'd loved and and and Martha was, you know, Martha and
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  Martha's family, you know, were quite an interesting and new
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  dynamic and and yeah it was a time.
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  It was a time to be alive and I think there's been a gap in the
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  middle hadn't there, for Eurovision.
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  So we'd had a week off so there'd been another there'd
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  been a midseason trailer instead of the next time trailer for was
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  it for 42 or was it 40? Yeah.
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  Was it between Lazarus Experiment and 42?
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  Instead of there being a trailer for 42, there was a trailer for
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  the second-half of the. Season was fantastic.
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  My I was and it is what before as well that I thought was was
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  even better. Do you know what the weird thing
• 6:50
  was? Was like when Chris Brickson
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  left the show and we did it, you know, that cancellation anxiety
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  hit us again. Yeah.
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  Will the show survive? I actually think people were
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  asking even more Will the show survive if Billy Piper leaves?
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  Absolutely. It shows you the shift from the
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  classic series to the new series.
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  Well it shows what an impact she made.
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  But she did. And in fact when a friend of
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  mine had watched you know you could watch Rose a week early if
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  you were so inclined. And I chose not to.
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  I thought I've waited this long but I but I said you know you
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  know how is Eccleston And he said he's great but the the real
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  revelation is Billie Piper and and then you know it it was you
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  know that that that that secondary character was actually
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  an equal lead really. And as as as much of AA key
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  figure in a way that I'd argue companions never quite been.
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  Even the very best companions of the classic series were never
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  really a Co lead in that way and and and yeah and it and and and
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  it could easily have been a real problem for the show because she
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  was such an important character and I think Freeman Rajuman had
• 8:02
  such a difficult job to do and not just in terms of following
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  Billie Piper but also in terms of the dynamic of the character
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  had to be the unrequited. She fancies the Doctor the
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  Doctor doesn't notes her which is quite a hard thing to to be
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  It's it's not it's not as it's not as positive a role to
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  inhabit as the one Billy Piper had.
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  Which because it makes you it makes you subservient.
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  It makes you overlooked. She is as a character Martha is
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  one of her character traits is that the Doctor overlooks her
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  and doesn't realize that she fancies him which is an
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  interesting dramatic dynamic but as an actor it's.
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  I think it's a it's it's it's it's it's more of a bum deal.
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  And I can see why some people might look at this season and
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  not like that element of it, because the Doctor is a bit of a
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  Dick in the first half of the season at times, so he doesn't
• 8:55
  realize he's, you know, how much she feels for him.
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  But what's great about that is just like with the Davidson and
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  Billy Piper survived the run through two.
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  It means that in the second-half of the season when Martha sort
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  of gains her independence. And then especially in like the
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  last two episodes, I think she comes out all the stronger for
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  sort of, you know, realizing actually, you know what?
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  I'm pretty amazing whether you look at me or not.
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  It's a great run for free management.
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  And I remember watching Smith and Jones as well, and going in
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  with such a sense of trepidation and just feeling it felt so
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  confident and fresh. That first scene with with all
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  the family on the phones and how he really economically just got.
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  We knew that all those dynamics in a couple of minutes.
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  He has so many skills as a writer, but economy I think
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  nobody does does better than him.
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  You can't have too much economy. But his the deafness with which
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  he paints characters and dynamics with, you know, in in
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  in a series of seemingly very trivial scenes that, as you say,
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  tells you everything you need to know.
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  And then you can get up with the business of what Doctor Who is
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  really about, which is, you know, yeah, hospital being
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  transported to the moon, but you already know where all those
• 10:19
  people stand with each other And it's and it's great and and
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  funny. And he likes his character so
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  much as well, which is not all writers do.
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  You know, some sometimes writers are quite cruel to their
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  characters, especially the sort of funny ones.
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  You know, they're they're they're funny because he thinks
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  they're stupid or whatever. But Russell doesn't do that.
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  You know, he he he doesn't. Yeah.
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  He doesn't patronize people like Jackie Tyler.
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  He actually really likes them. And and as we will see,
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  including one of my favorite bits of this episode, you know,
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  there are fairly feckless characters who get their their
• 10:56
  moments to shine. Not even like Francine.
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  He doesn't even look down on Francine, even though
• 11:02
  technically she's in the wrong and she's doing terrible things
• 11:07
  that she's got a motive for what she's doing it Perfectly
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  plausible 1. Do you know what I found as well
• 11:14
  is I I it's actually I had a bit of an issue with some of Stephen
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  Moffett's era of Doctor Who and I whilst I liked Chris Chipman's
• 11:24
  Doctor Who. There were problems there as
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  well. I've gone back after those two
• 11:28
  eras and watched the dots of this era, and I'll tell you
• 11:32
  what, you see them in entirely new eyes When you I watched Alex
• 11:35
  in Manhattan and Evolution of Dialects recently, I was like,
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  this is funny. It's stylish, it's got great
• 11:40
  characters, it's got brilliant dialogue.
• 11:43
  It's a lot better than I remember it being.
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  I must watch it again because I haven't watched that one for a
• 11:47
  for a while. I I watched.
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  I think it was after the Pandemic or during the pandemic.
• 11:56
  I I I went back and watched a load of RTD stuff and I watched
• 11:59
  42, which I'd always thought was a bit.
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  I think the common parlance is met and and I watched it and and
• 12:07
  apart from the city pop quiz which I think is a bit too
• 12:09
  silly. But just in terms of the
• 12:12
  structure of it that every 5 minutes there's a sort of
• 12:15
  cliffhanger or there's a change in the dynamic or there's an
• 12:18
  upping of the stakes and I was going God, this is an average
• 12:22
  episode from the first three years and yet it's utterly
• 12:31
  gripping and and I've forgotten the bit where you know she's in
• 12:36
  the escape pod and it's separated and they pull away and
• 12:38
  you go this this episode just keeps ramping up the ante and
• 12:42
  it's basically an episode about trying to get to the middle of a
• 12:44
  spaceship really. I mean that's all kind of all it
• 12:46
  is and the and the the the real time thing is a total cheat
• 12:50
  because you can just insert clock whenever you like.
• 12:52
  But it it it works. It works so well and I've
• 12:56
  remembered sort of thinking Oh well this will be all right and
• 12:58
  and actually at the end of it go wow I that I found that that
• 13:02
  moved a lick. The characters were all great.
• 13:04
  It was, I mean, the energy that Graham Harper puts into that
• 13:07
  direction. He's the secret weapon there,
• 13:08
  you know? Oh, absolutely.
• 13:10
  And you can imagine him on the, you know, on the set good.
• 13:14
  Lots of energy and and and. I just Graham some more.
• 13:16
  They're not sweating enough. Come on, if if this is an
• 13:20
  average episode, then no wonder you know, we were as happy as
• 13:25
  pigs in Dooda during this this period because it was, it was a
• 13:28
  great time to be alive and to be A to be a fan.
• 13:32
  Well, before we skip into the sound of drums, obviously Utopia
• 13:36
  does lead into this episode and I just kind of want to talk
• 13:40
  about the last 10 minutes of Utopia and the shocking
• 13:46
  revelations which genuinely for the second time in the new
• 13:48
  series, the first was the Macra revealing gridlock.
• 13:52
  But the master reveal in the Utopia did make me leap up off
• 13:56
  the sofa in July. I don't know who had ever done
• 13:59
  that to me before when I heard Roger Delgado's voice.
• 14:03
  Yeah, cuz I think I knew, But a bit like the Dalek at the end of
• 14:11
  Army of Ghosts, because there'd been one, there'd been one on a
• 14:14
  chap show or the Baftas or something, and they'd had a
• 14:16
  black Dalek and we'd never seen a black Dalek before.
• 14:20
  And I think it was Oh well, the Daleks must be back and still,
• 14:23
  but nonetheless, when the Daleks came out of the sphere, I was
• 14:26
  like, oh, and this I I knew that John SIM was.
• 14:31
  I knew that Derek Jacobi was going to change into John SIM.
• 14:34
  Or I'd been told anyway, that Derek Jacobi was going to change
• 14:37
  into John SIM and Johnson was playing the Master.
• 14:41
  And despite knowing that I somehow managed to make my brain
• 14:46
  either decide that wasn't true or forget it or whatever, There
• 14:50
  was a cognitive dissonance going on that meant, despite my pre
• 14:54
  knowledge or pre hinting at least when Roger Delgado's voice
• 15:00
  from the demons just seeped into the soundtrack, I just went.
• 15:06
  Can you hear Anthony Amy laughing as well?
• 15:08
  Yeah, yeah. And and of course because the
• 15:16
  the the FOB watch had been in a previous story and it had been a
• 15:21
  plot device to help the Doctor that that wonderful turn around
• 15:25
  there. But then the plot device means
• 15:27
  that would be sort of an important aid to the Doctor is
• 15:30
  now something of much darker purpose.
• 15:33
  When it belongs to, you know, a malevolent character that that
• 15:37
  suddenly gives it more umph as well because you're sort of
• 15:40
  invested in it a little bit more as a regular viewer,
• 15:43
  irrespective of the fact that it's the Master from old Doctor
• 15:45
  and all of that they they managed to make it important
• 15:48
  within the terms of series three of the new series of Doctor Who.
• 15:51
  So even if you don't know who the Master is, it's still a big
• 15:56
  moment, irrespective of the fact that for for people like us, we
• 16:01
  knew it was the Master. If you don't watch series three
• 16:03
  of Doctor Who, it's somebody who's got a chameleon arch
• 16:07
  buddy, blah blah blah. So that that was very clever.
• 16:10
  Through his seasons so clever. And you are not alone.
• 16:16
  Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, 10 minutes.
• 16:19
  They did have a secret weapon as well.
• 16:21
  Graham Harper. Graham Harper, absolutely.
• 16:25
  And that last and they're all again, it's because they're all
• 16:27
  charging about. And there's that scene.
• 16:30
  There's the scene with him and Jack and Martha isn't there.
• 16:32
  And and at the other end of the corridor, you know, Jacob is
• 16:35
  there looking at his watch and they're all charging about and
• 16:38
  you know, get it's the pacing, it's the tension.
• 16:41
  It wraps right up to the last thing that doesn't relent until
• 16:46
  that music is. Yeah.
• 16:48
  And it's funny because I'd I'd actually been away and so I'd
• 16:53
  not seen it on the night. I don't think I've been in Bath
• 16:58
  doing a gig, so I had to come back home and watch it, and a
• 17:02
  friend of mine decided to wait and watch it with me.
• 17:07
  But I'd had a I'd had a text from somebody and I said, you
• 17:12
  know, no, no spoilers. And they said no, it's great
• 17:16
  tonight. Bear with it because the first
• 17:18
  half hour is like an episode of Blake 7 but but then it really
• 17:22
  kicks in and so so you know I went into the beginning of it
• 17:27
  with kind of low expectations for for all of that and and I
• 17:31
  can see what he meant. You know the future kind are a
• 17:33
  bit are a bit like sort of punky Blake seven kind of baddies.
• 17:38
  But I always. But because he planted that seed
• 17:40
  I I felt like well until I get to the half an hour in I'm kind
• 17:43
  of watching a prologue to what the story is really about you
• 17:46
  know. And it is.
• 17:48
  You do kind of forget about the beginning of it, but by the time
• 17:54
  you've got to the end of it. Yeah, because it's really, it's
• 17:59
  really about what Derek Jacobi is, isn't it, you know?
• 18:01
  I think Derek Jacobi delivers the most chilling line in the
• 18:05
  whole of Doctor Who, You know, when he says now I can say I was
• 18:10
  provoked. That line is so scary.
• 18:14
  He's fabulous, so great to have Derek.
• 18:16
  Jack I think we were denied though.
• 18:18
  But I'm not doing more. I know he's done big finishes
• 18:20
  well and isn't it funny? Of course, cuz it's Scream of
• 18:22
  the Shalka. He is the master isn't he?
• 18:25
  So it's funny how they can sort of because nobody, obviously
• 18:30
  nobody went. Well we can't have him as the
• 18:32
  master cuz he's already been the master.
• 18:33
  They can sort of push that to one side and go, no, for the
• 18:36
  sake of the main program, we don't, we don't worry about
• 18:39
  things like that. But and yet there exists in this
• 18:42
  sort of subcategory of Doctor Who an instance where that actor
• 18:46
  has actually played that character in a different format
• 18:49
  of the show, which seems extraordinary.
• 18:51
  Now, you know, I have to say I think we'll talk about this a
• 18:59
  lot when we get to the episodes. I had likes Derek Jacob's
• 19:04
  performance very much, but I was very excited because John SIM
• 19:08
  was big news, you know, life on Mars for scifi fans to have, you
• 19:14
  know, Doctor but and also another scifi type program that
• 19:17
  was being, you know, lauded in the mainstream press and that
• 19:20
  everyone was loving and John SIM was a, you know, a name on
• 19:25
  everybody's lips at the time. And the fact that he was now
• 19:27
  going to be a Doctor Who as well seemed like, you know, it seemed
• 19:29
  like everything was, you know, Doctor was at the center of
• 19:32
  where everything that was going on in terms of popular culture
• 19:35
  and what was on. And it seemed like, you know,
• 19:37
  such an amazing thing to be happening.
• 19:39
  He's absolutely probably like when when Derek Jacoby turns
• 19:45
  into him and he does that stuff that he does in the TARDIS at
• 19:51
  the end of Utopia. I've seen it happen.
• 19:56
  I've known it to happen in plays, in rehearsals, when.
• 20:00
  You know, everything's going well and then an actor comes in
• 20:03
  and does a bit and everyone sort of goes, are they going to do it
• 20:06
  like that? And I'm and I'm, I'm afraid I
• 20:09
  kind of had that with him because I love him.
• 20:12
  He's brilliant actor. And I just found, especially in
• 20:15
  contrast to what Jacoby had done, which is what you call
• 20:18
  more traditional master acting, I went, oh Christ, I hope he's
• 20:23
  not going to do it like that. And and it did kind of knock the
• 20:27
  ending off kilter for me slightly because it I didn't
• 20:32
  want a I I wanted the Master to be like Derek Jacobi not like
• 20:35
  John SIM. Now as we will discover in this
• 20:40
  the the it's it's a very clever choice decision because what
• 20:44
  essentially the wiry energetic John Simmons is he is a negative
• 20:49
  of Doctor. You know, he's the the evil
• 20:51
  mirror image of David Tennant. But for somebody used to, you
• 20:55
  know, Roger Delgado's restrained, you know, villainy
• 20:59
  and the suave, you know, under playing, which I certainly favor
• 21:04
  over. You know what what Amy does.
• 21:07
  But Amy's slightly different. Again, I found this sort of
• 21:12
  jumping, jumping almost childish Glee stuff, not as much to my
• 21:21
  taste and I still, I think, prefer.
• 21:24
  I think he works really well as the feral master in the end of
• 21:27
  time with the hoodie and hanging around the backstreets and
• 21:30
  slightly damaged. Yeah.
• 21:33
  And and that that he. I think he fits that five really
• 21:35
  well. I love him when he's painting
• 21:37
  his eyeshadow in in when. When, when, when when Stephen
• 21:42
  Moffatt brings him back and that was because I because you
• 21:45
  thought you'd seen the end of him because Michelle Gomez was
• 21:47
  you know, and it was so it was so exciting to see him again and
• 21:50
  he he came out and he played. But but in in this I can see
• 21:55
  exactly why they've gone for that performance and why they've
• 21:58
  gone for that portrayal. But I don't want to lie and say
• 22:01
  I was over the moon about it because I I I find this sort of
• 22:08
  childish but it even ties in with the chocolate thing because
• 22:11
  they're quite childish and giggly as well.
• 22:13
  But it it didn't fit the suave politician that I thought he
• 22:20
  might be, that maybe I'd imagined.
• 22:24
  And as I say, I I that didn't quite fit with my image of of of
• 22:32
  sort of underplayed villainy that I expected from The Master.
• 22:35
  Now, is that still your opinion now?
• 22:37
  Well, of course. I mean because Michelle Gomez
• 22:39
  comes in and shows how a master can work who is completely
• 22:42
  unhinged and and you know, bat shit crazy and that totally
• 22:47
  works. So that sort then sort of feeds
• 22:49
  back into Sims sort of insanity sort of element and you go okay,
• 22:56
  no that I get that. Okay that that makes that.
• 23:00
  Well, I will be interested when we watch it.
• 23:03
  Now I remember. The where it all clicked for me
• 23:06
  cuz I was a bit like you. I was like, this is a bit over
• 23:09
  the top and it lacks, I mean, subtlety and in that bit where
• 23:13
  he murders the entire cabinet, which I love.
• 23:17
  Yeah it was a bit afterwards where he's he's bashing his ring
• 23:20
  on the table and the camera and I'm like shit, he's crazy.
• 23:24
  I I love that that had been in the trailer that had been in the
• 23:28
  next time trailer or one of the and I thought oh that looks
• 23:31
  really, really amazing. But I found the I found the oh,
• 23:35
  he, he, he all of that. Yeah, I it it didn't bowl me
• 23:40
  over at the time. I mean all things are
• 23:43
  comparative. Didn't hate anything I didn't
• 23:46
  stop me enjoy. But I'm talking about I'm
• 23:48
  talking from a little of somebody that that generally
• 23:50
  really likes Doctor Who and so if any misgivings are still
• 23:54
  catched in a oh that's just not exactly what I was expecting
• 23:57
  hoping for rather than I hated it and thought it was awful.
• 24:01
  But it it yeah. As I say, I it it it wasn't, it
• 24:07
  definitely wasn't what I was hoping for, I think.
• 24:11
  The yeah, we'll get there. But the the climax where he's
• 24:14
  got the Sonic screwdriver in the air and the music is playing and
• 24:17
  the bombs are raining down and he's like an agent of chaos.
• 24:22
  I just think. I don't think that for me, the
• 24:25
  mass has ever seen more powerful than in that, and that line
• 24:29
  removed 10% of the population. See, now you're describing it.
• 24:34
  I'm going. I love all of that stuff.
• 24:35
  So why did I ever have a problem in the first place?
• 24:40
  I wonder if we have just a perception.
• 24:41
  Roger Gardo, you know, he created the character so
• 24:44
  vividly. Maybe we just that's our
• 24:46
  default. Yeah, maybe.
• 24:49
  Maybe. I'm always happy to revise my
• 24:53
  opinion, but I'm just, as I said, I'm just being truthful in
• 24:55
  that it was it was a reservation for me with these episodes that
• 25:00
  Johnson wasn't quite what I'd expected.
• 25:05
  Well, let's should we head in and see what he's got to offer
• 25:08
  them? Yes.
• 25:10
  And we'll be doing three things apiece at the end of the story.
• 25:12
  So if John Sims is one of them, we'll know he's managed to
• 25:15
  change your mind at the end of the story or at the end of the
• 25:18
  episode. At the end of at the end of the
• 25:21
  second episode, we'll do three things for For the the how.
• 25:26
  I'm calling it a two-part, so it's two episodes, but would you
• 25:30
  want to count as in well, here come the drums, here come the
• 25:34
  drums in 3/2 1. I actually watched it.
• 25:43
  You know what? When this came out, I watched
• 25:45
  this episode at least 10 times. Between this and last of the
• 25:51
  time laws, it left such an impression on me and I'm glad
• 25:55
  they kind of jumped straight in with the story as well.
• 25:57
  And you don't have 5 minutes of them having to get off out of
• 26:01
  the last story, you know. And there is something very cool
• 26:06
  about not walking around London being serious.
• 26:09
  Oh, Colin T, Colin Teague's direction I think is terrific.
• 26:14
  What really makes this story work is the urban thriller
• 26:18
  Spooks kind of vibe that it has. I think it's shot like a like a
• 26:22
  sort of urban spy thriller which gives it but with added sci-fi,
• 26:28
  you know, dystopian dictator, Big Brother vibe going on as
• 26:32
  well. And I think it's, I think all of
• 26:34
  this stuff is terrific. And later on, sort of hiding
• 26:37
  down on the paths. Warehouses love all of that.
• 26:40
  Yeah, me too. That's very sort of like V, you
• 26:43
  know, where everyone sort of get the resistance of hiding out,
• 26:46
  you know, all of that Andalic invasion of Earth, you know?
• 26:49
  Gives me a bit of a season 75. You know, warehouses and
• 26:51
  backstreets and things like that.
• 26:54
  And we know we love Season 7. We do, but we've added, but
• 26:58
  we're hiding from the authorities.
• 27:00
  You know, nowhere is safe. This is, this is great.
• 27:04
  And of course, you know, we'd seen the Vote Saxon signs in the
• 27:07
  very first episode. So we knew that this was going
• 27:09
  to be the, you know, the art, the Bad wolf of the season.
• 27:16
  Very cleverly seeded as well, wasn't it?
• 27:18
  Was it a tortured episode as well?
• 27:20
  Was it in a Sarah Jane, too? Yes, it was.
• 27:22
  Yeah. I think it.
• 27:23
  I think it was. I think it was.
• 27:26
  And and again you know they they don't beat about the Bush with
• 27:30
  this. They they stick it in the pre
• 27:35
  titles and this is this is a great opening.
• 27:38
  It's the best one liner into the titles I think we ever had.
• 27:44
  Right now it's a doctor. See, that's brilliant.
• 27:49
  Fantastic. I love David Taylor's.
• 27:51
  Relax the master and his wife. Yeah, he.
• 27:53
  Just grabs her and snugs her in front of the press.
• 27:56
  It's a brilliant opening and and and again Russell's very good at
• 27:59
  doing those simple devices. The Tap, tap, tap tap, tap, tap,
• 28:02
  tap, tap. It's really unsettling.
• 28:05
  It costs nothing, and it speaks to other elements of the story,
• 28:11
  but it's just a fantastic little device to unsettle.
• 28:15
  The I love the fact that it is the Doctor Who theme tune.
• 28:17
  Da da da da da da da. I love the fact that he's
• 28:20
  utilizing mobile phones as a weapon cuz we've all got them.
• 28:24
  So, yeah, perfect sense. Yeah, of course.
• 28:28
  Well, I wonder if my sound is too high for you, Joe.
• 28:31
  So I know I wasn't just gently, but it's not at all distracting.
• 28:35
  Correct me if I'm wrong. Does this entire season take
• 28:38
  place over a few days or a week? Well, yeah.
• 28:42
  It's not very long, is it? Because, yeah.
• 28:49
  No, it's not very long. But I haven't timed it.
• 28:50
  You tell me. But yeah.
• 28:51
  I think it's a week. You've got Smith and Jones, and
• 28:53
  you've got the latterest experiment, which is a few days
• 28:56
  later, yeah? And then I think 42 is a day or
• 29:01
  two after that. And then this is a few days
• 29:03
  after that because they're talking about the election.
• 29:06
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, he's he's quite silly here.
• 29:15
  Yeah. And I know he's supposed to be.
• 29:17
  And that's the lovely contrast. I like this actor Nicholas Gecks
• 29:20
  who's who's you know channeling irritated politician and and so
• 29:26
  John Sims doing exactly what is required and what what the what
• 29:29
  the story wants him to do. But as I said, it was a bit of a
• 29:33
  culture shock that I would expect the, you know, Delgado
• 29:38
  would have would have, you know, absolutely fitted.
• 29:40
  Into, you know, yes, walls, he probably have a Brandy or
• 29:45
  something, a cigar. But The thing is, he plays that
• 29:50
  all out, you know, crazy comedy, and he murders them all.
• 29:54
  Yeah. And I, as I say, I think this is
• 29:55
  brilliant. So I don't know what my
• 29:58
  reservations were first time round because I think that's
• 30:02
  great. But this is yeah yeah but but
• 30:09
  even though he's being silly you know that he does have that that
• 30:17
  ferocity behind him and that you know that's psychotic sort of
• 30:21
  edge to his temper and and he's got a sort of troubled he's like
• 30:32
  a sort of dysfunctional youth almost isn't he who's who's
• 30:35
  who's become Prime Minister and and and that's very funny it's a
• 30:39
  gas mask for the for the gas it's brilliant.
• 30:43
  So what was my? What was my issue, Joe?
• 30:46
  I'm not sure you know, but I going by the Twitter thread that
• 30:49
  I did earlier, there are still people with serious issues with
• 30:52
  this depiction. Interesting because it makes out
• 30:55
  and again it makes absolute sense because it's the anti
• 31:00
  David Tennant, you know physically and in terms of the
• 31:03
  energy and everything. But this is look, they were that
• 31:07
  brilliant with this, the thumbs up as the guest and that's a
• 31:09
  great shot. Going across his court, it's
• 31:13
  fantastic and that. Is naughty as best murdering the
• 31:19
  You know, all the inhabitants of Downing St. brilliantly directed
• 31:22
  that scene as well. But also, you know, crazily, the
• 31:26
  Master is sort of justified because he's because they're a
• 31:29
  load of hypocrites who sided with the guy that was going to
• 31:32
  win. So in a way, even though he's
• 31:33
  murdered the whole capital, he's also murdered a load of, you
• 31:37
  know, morality. Free bandwagon jumping, ladder
• 31:45
  climbing, self interested assholes.
• 31:47
  It's not a good thing. Then couldn't you?
• 31:49
  Well, in a, you know, in a way. And that again makes you cuz you
• 31:52
  have to kind of like The Master as well, you know, That's the
• 31:55
  that's the thing about The Master as a villain.
• 31:57
  You have to like him here. She is now Nicola Mccauliff.
• 32:02
  She'd been in a series called Surgical Spirit, which I did not
• 32:05
  like, which I'd not liked as a kid because it seemed to be on
• 32:09
  all the time. So I was.
• 32:12
  So when she was in this, I was like, oh, well, she's going to
• 32:15
  have loads to do, obviously, because she's a bit of a star.
• 32:18
  But I wasn't, as I said, I wasn't very well disposed
• 32:21
  towards Surgical Spirit and she walks into this and she owns it.
• 32:25
  I think she's absolutely brilliant.
• 32:29
  How she goes in just so sort of, you know, showbiz, yeah.
• 32:33
  And when the mask drops, she love it.
• 32:37
  And then when he comes in, yeah, she does.
• 32:40
  She does so much. I mean, she's bad.
• 32:42
  She's on screen for what, about 3-4 minutes?
• 32:45
  And she does the whole thing. She makes an entrance where
• 32:47
  she's, you know, Yeah, as you say.
• 32:50
  Hair and makeup and glam. Columnist, Woman that you know.
• 32:53
  Daily Mail Reporter type woman. But then as soon as the door
• 32:57
  closes you go, oh, OK she's she's doing something serious
• 33:01
  which she's about to do now. Brilliant.
• 33:03
  Completely changes And then and then we have the change that
• 33:06
  comes later on. And I mean she probably wasn't
• 33:09
  on this for more than a day was she?
• 33:11
  And I think it's it's one of those great you know one episode
• 33:15
  even one scene performances and she's a class act and I met her
• 33:19
  and she was in a play with Julian Glover and Sheila Reed
• 33:22
  and I did the I did the thing go around afterwards and chatted to
• 33:25
  him and she was so nice and and very down to earth and all right
• 33:30
  lads and she's yeah, I really liked her And how do we feel
• 33:34
  about this McFly and Ann Widdecombe you see is he take is
• 33:38
  Russell taking the Mickey out of Annawick.
• 33:40
  Oh. Cool, she is.
• 33:41
  And I bet she was game as anything.
• 33:44
  But what does that you know, what does that say?
• 33:46
  Is it? Is it?
• 33:48
  He's basically saying to somebody, come and play yourself
• 33:50
  in a program. Where you are alive with evil.
• 33:55
  Yeah, yeah, you pregnant woman manicling to hospital.
• 33:59
  Begs evil cow that you are. But you can also give that, you
• 34:03
  know, that the, the, the satellites have done their magic
• 34:06
  on them as well. So you can give it that reading
• 34:08
  if you want to. Yeah.
• 34:10
  No, I think, I think I'm absolutely forced.
• 34:12
  She'd have just done it. Can I just say, OK, I still
• 34:15
  can't say her name Nicola Mccauliff.
• 34:17
  Is that how you say it? I said this show off Mike.
• 34:20
  Her convention appearances, given she's in this one scene,
• 34:25
  are absolutely astonishing. And the scream, the elongated
• 34:28
  scream where she dies in this she performs at every convention
• 34:33
  appearance. She does a whole song and dance
• 34:34
  routine while she's doing it, and she makes it last for
• 34:37
  minutes and the audience just goes crazy for it.
• 34:40
  She is a proper turn. She's a proper, actually.
• 34:43
  She was also the. Do you remember when Ross Kemp
• 34:46
  did Shakespeare on stage? And he did, he did the
• 34:48
  production of The Taming of the Shrew?
• 34:50
  She was. She was Kate.
• 34:52
  Yeah. Ross Kemp decided it was the
• 34:53
  only time. There's been a theater of you in
• 34:54
  the sun because Ross Kemp was married to Rebecca Brooks at the
• 34:57
  time. And.
• 34:59
  And I want. To say it, though, because I'm
• 35:01
  sure I love. Well, then she was She was Kate
• 35:04
  to Ross Kemp's Petruchio. But she's got, and of course
• 35:09
  she's got the same name as Emma Thompson in years and years.
• 35:13
  She's Vivian Rook, isn't she? And of course, that's basically.
• 35:15
  Never forgets her name, does he? No, he sometimes repeats.
• 35:18
  Dennis Potter did that sometimes too.
• 35:21
  But of course, a Gene Rook was the, I think Daily Mail
• 35:25
  columnist who wrote an article where she interviewed Robert
• 35:28
  Holmes and said what do you think you're doing, scaring my
• 35:29
  child. So it's all it's all ties in.
• 35:34
  What about Lucy Saxon? She's great.
• 35:38
  It's. Interesting.
• 35:40
  It's quite a sophisticated performance for a for a sort of,
• 35:45
  you know, cheery scifi show that flirts with sometimes very dark
• 35:50
  philosophical. Isn't it?
• 35:52
  But this is this is a dark domestic abuse, drugs, control,
• 35:59
  gaslight, all sorts of things. Going on, it was very
• 36:01
  interesting that they gave her the bruise, yeah.
• 36:05
  And she's quite sort of spaced out and strung out as well,
• 36:07
  which I think is great choice from the from the action who's
• 36:10
  barely got any lines. No, I know.
• 36:12
  It's all in her face. So dead behind the eyes.
• 36:15
  It's a really. It's a really smart piece of
• 36:18
  acting. Me at the end where she's
• 36:19
  awkwardly dancing to the music as the Salters going on, yeah.
• 36:26
  I think, and you know what, I remember watching this and
• 36:28
  thinking this was the best special effects I'd ever seen.
• 36:31
  But I think it's such a simple effect.
• 36:33
  The top of fame. Yeah, well, yeah, they're just
• 36:35
  random things, aren't they? But, and this?
• 36:38
  I mean, I can understand why people might not like this, but
• 36:43
  I think it's great. Because you know what you don't
• 36:47
  say, Rusty remembers. The kids are watching this, you
• 36:50
  know, and they want to have fun. It's it's it is brilliant, it's
• 36:54
  daring and I love it. The the tone of this manages to
• 37:02
  cohere, even though you know it flirts with a lot of dark humor.
• 37:08
  But then it's got the the the thriller element to it as well.
• 37:11
  It's I think it's tonally really well spliced together and I and
• 37:19
  it's about and look at and look at Colin Teagues angles slightly
• 37:23
  high slightly angled. And there's a lot of it now.
• 37:25
  We go outside the house when the bomb goes off.
• 37:27
  We're on a rut till we are about to enter, I think.
• 37:32
  My favorite period of the episode.
• 37:34
  Much as I love the Nick McAuliffe bit, what was my
• 37:36
  issue? I'm loving this and I and I've
• 37:42
  loved it ever since as well. But I do remember, as I say at
• 37:46
  the time, having some reservations.
• 37:50
  And it's odd. This seems so odd to me now
• 37:52
  because there's nothing, there's absolutely nothing wrong with
• 37:56
  this. I love.
• 37:57
  How Freeman plays this when she's talking about, sort of.
• 38:01
  How she supported Mr. Saxton and then she just starts tapping her
• 38:06
  hand. Very good.
• 38:08
  I think it's really well directed, the whole tempo of
• 38:15
  everything. And I love this, isn't it?
• 38:19
  Cuz yeah. You know what you get in a
• 38:23
  second before we get into bombs and guns on the street and all
• 38:28
  of that. You get a wonderful sequence
• 38:30
  where Mr. Saxon appears and catches us up on all the alien
• 38:34
  invasions that we've had so far. You know, so we are, you know,
• 38:37
  sort of continuity now, of course, but the show didn't do
• 38:42
  that before, did it? It was just like one invasion
• 38:44
  after another. We kind of forgot about it.
• 38:46
  Yes. Yeah.
• 38:47
  Every time there's an invasion, people would go, are you talking
• 38:50
  out of your hats? And you go, but hang on, it's
• 38:52
  because they made it last week and the week before and the week
• 38:55
  before that. Those dinosaurs in London when
• 38:58
  everyone was evacuated. Yeah.
• 39:00
  And and I mean I I think I prefer, I prefer a world where
• 39:08
  you know the Doctor is at odds with everybody and the and the
• 39:11
  and the it's the world today where if you said aliens, you go
• 39:14
  now you're you're bonkers. But of course this one makes
• 39:17
  much more sense because people can't.
• 39:21
  You can't. And I know Moffatt tried to wipe
• 39:23
  white people's memories, didn't he?
• 39:25
  And all of that sort of thing. And you know, if, you know, if
• 39:28
  you have obvious Earth invasions, you've got to sort of
• 39:31
  acknowledge it. But then of course, it stops
• 39:32
  being a world that we identify with because we live in a world
• 39:35
  where aliens are ridiculous. So it's a hard, it's a hard one
• 39:39
  to negotiate that. When you do do a conversation
• 39:43
  like that, you can do fun things like love of monsters, where you
• 39:46
  did see it all from Elton's point of view, you know, And the
• 39:50
  wonderful recurring joke with Donna where she's just she never
• 39:53
  noticed. You know that's coming back,
• 39:55
  don't you? Such a good joke.
• 39:57
  Well. I miss something again?
• 40:01
  From here, I love this The whole the cutting of it, the camera
• 40:04
  movement, the angles. I even love the big company
• 40:07
  sticks of dynamite, but this is. Earlier you know this is shot on
• 40:11
  high def, this explosion. They've got high def cameras
• 40:15
  here and it looks absolutely terrific.
• 40:18
  The camera's on the floor. Yeah, it's absolutely terrific.
• 40:23
  And then I absolutely look, this is my favorite bit of the
• 40:26
  episode and I love the way she does that and the music's kicked
• 40:29
  in and the action and when she said don't you dead and and then
• 40:32
  go go to her home, he said. Of course she's going to warn
• 40:35
  her family to tell them to get out, but it's too late because
• 40:37
  we know that that the lady from 42 is there, the lady who used
• 40:42
  to be in Hollyoaks, who's replaced Bertie Carville because
• 40:45
  he's got out to be really famous from the last risk experiment.
• 40:50
  Helen her as well, aren't they? You know we're going to get back
• 40:52
  together, and that's an immediate red flag that
• 40:54
  something is wrong. And then she gives it to a
• 40:57
  useless dad who's an idiot who was also in trial of the Time
• 41:01
  Lord and has just proved herself to be a Burke who's run off with
• 41:06
  this, you know, blonde, 20 year old and in true brilliant Doctor
• 41:11
  Who style. He gets to be brave and I love
• 41:14
  that because it's it's going no, instead of him being feckless
• 41:17
  and useless, he does the right thing and she yells at him and
• 41:21
  they grab him and and that's all action.
• 41:23
  And I love it. The bit where he turns and goes
• 41:26
  no run, just gets me every time. I absolutely love it.
• 41:30
  It's. I said today when I was watching
• 41:31
  this. This is the best telly ever and
• 41:34
  I love, you know when frosting is screaming you can't really
• 41:37
  hear what you're and it's so chaotic.
• 41:39
  Yeah, it's my mate and drink that.
• 41:40
  The ordinary dumb guy finding it within himself to do something
• 41:46
  brave, even though it's stage steps up and I love this.
• 41:49
  I like the sexy, sexy lady who's who's a bit who, who who does
• 41:55
  the ready aim fire the mysterious woman.
• 41:58
  Guns on the street here. It feels very Spooks, doesn't
• 42:00
  it? Really, sort of urban warfare.
• 42:03
  Oh, we haven't even mentioned Tisch, who's gone on to be an
• 42:05
  Oscar nominee as well. This time when Doctor Who was
• 42:07
  casting future Oscar nominees left, right and center.
• 42:11
  Kerry Mulligan. Andrew as Andrew Garfield.
• 42:13
  Yeah, Andrew Garfield. This bit where they just
• 42:15
  suddenly stop and everybody stops, yeah, and as a moment.
• 42:23
  It's so great Fire. I love that.
• 42:26
  I love that. It's terrific.
• 42:32
  Well, that's yeah, brilliant right there.
• 42:36
  That whole sequence from seeing the Dynamite to this bit I think
• 42:41
  is so well done and it's brilliant and it's thrilling and
• 42:45
  it makes me very excited and happy to be a doctor.
• 42:48
  And I also get a little bit sort of lump in the throaty when when
• 42:51
  Trevor Led's brave, love it all and now they're in an
• 42:55
  underground tunnel and it's all spooky and they're on the run
• 42:59
  and. And of course it's raining.
• 43:01
  It's Cardiff. I really love Martha in that
• 43:04
  sequence as well, because she has spent a lot of this season,
• 43:06
  sort of been talked down to a little bit, and now her family
• 43:09
  are in danger. She just goes, you know what?
• 43:11
  Fuck off, yeah? I'm gonna go and help them,
• 43:14
  yeah. And then she has to ring Reggie
• 43:16
  Yates, who's been double booked and can't be in the story
• 43:18
  anymore. And I live very near Brighton.
• 43:20
  That is not Brighton, OK? Oh.
• 43:24
  Not Brighton. That is Cardiff.
• 43:26
  Oh, well, it can, as somebody that is not as familiar with the
• 43:31
  nooks and crannies of Brighton as you are, Joe.
• 43:34
  It's saying a word convinced me and this is great because it's
• 43:38
  the first time they've spoken and and you know, they give this
• 43:42
  the weights that it needs. But it's also incredibly
• 43:46
  flirtatious to see. Yeah, Doctor, it's a bit sexy in
• 43:51
  it. It is.
• 43:51
  It is because I love it when you say my name, Yeah.
• 43:56
  Of course, if Russell Davis was going to write a scene between
• 43:58
  the Doctor and the Master, it was going to get a bit flirty.
• 44:02
  Yeah, it's great. But you really feel like the
• 44:06
  weight of these two, the last two of their kind, and they're
• 44:11
  not even in the same room, you know, it's it's really, really
• 44:14
  well done. And Johnson's delivery of the
• 44:17
  lie when he's talking about Gallifrey.
• 44:19
  And he's like, you know, how did it feel when it burned?
• 44:23
  Yeah, I love that. Yeah.
• 44:27
  Yeah. I mean, there's a fair bit of
• 44:30
  exposition here, but it's all done very economically and just
• 44:34
  emotionally and entertainingly, Yeah.
• 44:39
  And but you know, the doctor's, The doctor's instinct is to go,
• 44:44
  you know, it's just you and me, kids, you know, things are
• 44:46
  different now. And that's basically the Doctor
• 44:50
  throughout the entire two episodes, isn't it?
• 44:52
  He's waiting out until the Master realizes it is just the
• 44:56
  two of us, you know? Unfortunately, it doesn't quite
• 44:59
  end where I think he hopes it was going to end, but no.
• 45:02
  But and tenant's so sad, you know.
• 45:04
  There's a beautiful sadness to him here and I think they
• 45:09
  capture that very nicely because obviously you know the doctor
• 45:12
  has you know blown up many a bad guy in the past but he's always,
• 45:17
  he's always try either he's always sort leniency and mercy
• 45:20
  for the for the master. So there's obviously got to be
• 45:22
  something a bit more a bit more there and and I think they said
• 45:27
  it's just that one very, very well tenant is.
• 45:30
  So I think it's I think it's easy to take for granted how
• 45:34
  good an actor Tenant is because he's not doing he's not doing
• 45:38
  sort of the sum of the sort of character E you know where he
• 45:42
  gigs that that that that trap no or Baker do you know there's no
• 45:46
  there's there's there's you know it's it's so it comes so
• 45:54
  naturally to him that I think we forget sometimes the the the a
• 45:59
  lot of the dramatic weight and the drive of these episodes
• 46:03
  comes from the the the fact that Tenant is on point all the time.
• 46:09
  I do wonder if that's the weakness of loss of the time
• 46:12
  laws is where you take 10 and out and you bring CGI Doctor in.
• 46:17
  That is an odd decision. Again, I will be interested to
• 46:20
  see how we fare with that. But Dobby the House Doctor is a
• 46:24
  peculiar choice for your season finale to suddenly go well,
• 46:29
  let's yeah. Did you cover this episode?
• 46:31
  I mean, I listened to them all, but I can't remember.
• 46:33
  Did you cover this episode when you interviewed Rossi Davis for?
• 46:38
  Did he mention that? And I can't remember.
• 46:42
  I don't think so. What did we talk about when we
• 46:44
  talked about this? Or had I interviewed some?
• 46:49
  I honestly can't remember. It was a long old interview,
• 46:52
  that it. Was fantastic, but I think, I
• 46:56
  think I probably talked about the sort of spy that's real
• 46:59
  element of it because that's my that's the part that sings to
• 47:02
  me. But had I maybe interviewed
• 47:06
  somebody else about There's no cuz I didn't interview Colin
• 47:10
  Colin Teague about it. There's an interesting line here
• 47:17
  where he says you're ticking every demographic well done and
• 47:20
  you run. It's really no tasty, yeah.
• 47:28
  Oh you. One thing that really stood out
• 47:33
  to me watching the season as a whole was that obviously the
• 47:37
  Doctor and Martha go for this entire season, which has been
• 47:40
  manipulated by the Master. But they actually reached the
• 47:43
  Master until towards the end of the season, where they
• 47:45
  encouraged him to open the Watch, which then makes him go
• 47:48
  all the way back to the start of the season and manipulate their
• 47:52
  events through the season. It's got a real circular
• 47:55
  plotting to it. It hasn't it and this is great
• 47:58
  look with the extras. You know, tapping, tapping the
• 48:01
  drum sound out. I'll miss the news reports.
• 48:03
  You know, I I love a bit of yeah, I hope.
• 48:08
  I hope they bring back Trinity Wells.
• 48:10
  I'll give her an episode. Please give her a whole episode.
• 48:14
  And of course this is a this is an obvious, you know, repeat of
• 48:17
  the The Clangers gag from the Sea Devils, which is nice to
• 48:22
  see. Television is in their stomachs,
• 48:28
  yeah. What I like about the top of the
• 48:33
  is they're nicely mysterious and actually the payoff is chilling
• 48:38
  when we get there. Yes, it's it's it's a it's a
• 48:42
  bold choice, isn't it? Because obviously the the
• 48:44
  childish voice thing is there to create a dissonance between
• 48:48
  their deadly nature and and the way that they speak of this sort
• 48:52
  of childish phraseology and the, you know, the very childish
• 48:56
  voices. In the same way actually the the
• 48:58
  quarks, you know, how that you know, childish speech that's
• 49:02
  supposed to be a contrast to the fact that they, you know, melt
• 49:06
  people. But it does it.
• 49:09
  It is dangerous because it does mean your scary villains sound
• 49:13
  like babies and that that that can backfire in terms of how
• 49:20
  dangerous and threatening they feel when they're, you know,
• 49:24
  doing their discourse. Those who has all about fine
• 49:26
  line many times, like like the troll doll in terrily Autumn,
• 49:30
  which is a bit cute looking and a bit weird until it you know
• 49:33
  he's got his hands right. Absolutely.
• 49:36
  Or the chair. You know he sits in that cute
• 49:38
  chair. Isn't this the sexiest warehouse
• 49:42
  you've ever seen? Honestly.
• 49:44
  And also it makes it seem really quite exciting being on the run
• 49:47
  having fish and chips in a warehouse.
• 49:51
  He brings in domestic elements so effortlessly, doesn't he?
• 49:55
  But there's also something very exciting.
• 49:57
  I call it Survivor syndrome. And I sometimes when I'm sort of
• 50:00
  on my own wondering, I do sometimes sort of fantasize
• 50:02
  about it being the end of the world and, you know, you being
• 50:05
  the only person left and stop. And there is something quite
• 50:09
  sort of exciting about going, oh, what if I was cut off from
• 50:13
  everybody else and and, you know, had to make my own way.
• 50:17
  And it's frightening, but also strangely liberating in a way
• 50:20
  that suddenly you know you don't have to.
• 50:23
  You can't do any of the things that you normally do relying on
• 50:25
  other people or or or being in the usual places that are safe
• 50:29
  and have the usual home it. Would be so peaceful word,
• 50:33
  wouldn't it? But also deadly and lonely and
• 50:35
  frightening. This This glimpse of Gallifrey
• 50:39
  with a budget. Yeah, orange sky.
• 50:44
  The colors, Yeah, Doctor with glasses on.
• 50:48
  Love that. I mean, look at Tennant.
• 50:52
  He just owns the show, doesn't he?
• 50:54
  Yeah, he's absolutely phenomenal.
• 51:00
  We haven't got the music playing, but the score
• 51:04
  throughout these two episodes is my gold at his peak.
• 51:08
  But the score for this scene? It's epic.
• 51:12
  I can just hear it on mine. Oh, this poor chat is no longer
• 51:16
  with us, the young master, he died a couple of years ago.
• 51:22
  It's always sad when you see somebody so young, isn't it?
• 51:28
  It is. But he was a boxer as well.
• 51:29
  He got into boxing. But incredible eyes, isn't he?
• 51:34
  Yeah, yeah, really soulful. Soulful eyes.
• 51:38
  But that seems extraordinary, doesn't it So?
• 51:40
  This is a the close up into the Eye and the Vortex and the fact
• 51:46
  that he's wearing a costume from the War games, he's wearing the
• 51:49
  Time Lord roves from the War games you got.
• 51:51
  You know what, love it. He goes in with that first
• 51:54
  season and he made it very domestic and he pulled everyone
• 51:56
  in and now he can start doing it all, but he doesn't overdo it.
• 52:01
  I think they do do it in muffets.
• 52:03
  Time when you get to Hell Bent and stuff like that.
• 52:05
  And you're down in the Matrix and the volts and all, and I'm
• 52:08
  like, what is then the techno Bible?
• 52:10
  This is still hugely accessible, but if you're a big Doctor Who
• 52:13
  fan, then you've got your Easter eggs there.
• 52:16
  Yeah, yeah, you have to wear it all lightly.
• 52:19
  It can't be. It can't be alienating to the
• 52:22
  audience. And of course, this is Torchwood
• 52:27
  is on as well, as is The Sarah Jane Adventures.
• 52:29
  I mean, this is Doctor Who is everywhere, and it's quality is
• 52:35
  pretty consistent everywhere as well.
• 52:39
  So it's not just that they're doing 13 episodes of Doctor Who,
• 52:44
  they're doing episodes of Tortured and Sarah Jane as well.
• 52:47
  You remember later seasons. They were putting out five or
• 52:50
  six episodes a year, one episode a year, you know, and we have
• 52:54
  Doctor Who Confidential and totally Doctor Who.
• 52:58
  You read that right as tale. No wonder he was tearing his
• 53:00
  hair out. Yeah, absolutely.
• 53:02
  But you're right. And the quality just got better
• 53:04
  and better, you know, I kept waiting for it to go wrong.
• 53:08
  Do you know what I mean? It's so easy as a Doctor Who fan
• 53:13
  to live in a constant state of panic, you know, It's good now,
• 53:18
  but what if it's not good next week?
• 53:20
  Or people love it now? What if they stop loving it next
• 53:23
  week? They get cancelled.
• 53:24
  You know, I love the latest Bluray box set.
• 53:27
  When's the next one coming out? You.
• 53:29
  Know you can see it. But.
• 53:30
  But I identify with all of that because I'm I'm wired.
• 53:34
  It's a constant battle to try not to be sort of pessimistic or
• 53:38
  worrisome. And I think, I think, because in
• 53:41
  a way I don't know if people of my generation have never quite
• 53:46
  recovered from the the 1980s hiatus, where a show that seemed
• 53:53
  indestructible almost overnight went from being, you know, part
• 53:58
  of the furniture in the national treasure to being something
• 54:00
  people incorrectly written up, wrote off as this terrible,
• 54:04
  shitty program that had always been a bit crap.
• 54:06
  And the injustice of that as well.
• 54:08
  After Survival, it was so anticlimactic that, you know, it
• 54:12
  just sort of got forgotten rather than, you know, and there
• 54:15
  was no big bold attempt to bring it back.
• 54:18
  Yeah, And when the thing that you love most in the world,
• 54:22
  everybody incorrectly writes off as this sort of rubbishy relic
• 54:27
  from the past, when actually it was really successful and
• 54:30
  everybody loved it, it did make for a period of being, I think
• 54:37
  unnecessarily spiky and hard done too.
• 54:40
  And I would react in those ways. And one has to be very careful
• 54:46
  not to. And I see people doing it today
• 54:48
  in discourse about Doctor Who, when something happens to a
• 54:50
  character that they don't like what a writer has done to a
• 54:53
  character, and they take it very personally and they get very
• 54:55
  cross. And it's that way madness lies.
• 54:58
  Yeah. But as well, I think another
• 55:01
  reason why it's it gives me a glow to go back and watch these
• 55:05
  Four Seasons is there was just that collective endorsement of
• 55:09
  the show at the time, you know, And I still feel that now when I
• 55:12
  watch these, Absolutely, there's another good pit score here as
• 55:17
  well. I could sing it, you know.
• 55:19
  I've done the music so well. I won't.
• 55:23
  And it's and it's great because, you know, this gives us a chance
• 55:26
  for, you know, the perception filters are lovely or whatever
• 55:28
  it's called is a is a lovely way of getting them out to the open
• 55:31
  and not being spotted. But it also shows, you know, it
• 55:35
  emphasizes the fact that they're lonely and they're on the run.
• 55:38
  And that's really dramatic. I love the whole atmosphere of
• 55:40
  that of the blue sort. Of out with news.
• 55:43
  Yeah, Air Force One. Suddenly we're on a massive
• 55:45
  scale again, another cracking piece of music.
• 55:51
  And and there's something about having the president, Colin
• 55:56
  Stinton. I saw him on a train once.
• 55:58
  He is American or he's Canadian. I saw, I saw him getting on the
• 56:01
  train in Manchester, but I decided not to bother him.
• 56:03
  In fact, I've seen a few of them because I also saw the lady
• 56:06
  who's the professor, Ellie Hadington.
• 56:07
  In the next episode. I saw her on a train from
• 56:09
  Manchester too. So I should hold.
• 56:13
  Hold. Yeah, she's she's based around
• 56:15
  here. I think she used to be in
• 56:16
  Coronation Street. Have you met the wife?
• 56:24
  He's so playful, isn't he? Because I think it's down the
• 56:27
  back of the city. I had a look there.
• 56:29
  You know I've found a sweet I I also feel like having the
• 56:34
  American president in Doctor Who makes it feel like it's a, you
• 56:40
  know, it's a step up. It makes it feel like Doctor
• 56:42
  Who's on the global scale, our funny little British programs,
• 56:45
  even though he's only a fixable American president, has has got
• 56:47
  the president, the president of the United States.
• 56:49
  You know, because America's where all the big stuff happens.
• 56:52
  You know, a part of Doctor Who's charm is that it takes takes
• 56:56
  place in, you know, invasions take place in the Home Counties
• 56:58
  or whatever. But suddenly, if you've got Air
• 56:59
  Force One and the American president.
• 57:02
  Taking it very soon, and it really works here in a way that
• 57:06
  I don't remember In Death, in Heaven, they make the The Doctor
• 57:10
  president of the Earth or something like that, and they're
• 57:12
  trying to sort of key into the same sort of stuff.
• 57:15
  It just didn't quite have the same impact on me.
• 57:18
  No, no. But actually what's great about
• 57:22
  this of course as well, is that the Doctor and Co are on the run
• 57:28
  and on their own, and their enemy is the Prime Minister of
• 57:31
  Great Britain. That's one.
• 57:34
  Who is the Master? I mean, who is the master?
• 57:37
  And I think his coat's about to blow open and we're gonna see a
• 57:40
  really gorgeous red lining to his coat.
• 57:44
  What does that remind you of, Toby?
• 57:46
  It's and It's just a tiny moment, but it's just one of
• 57:51
  those bits of attention to detail.
• 57:53
  It has to be deliberate, right? Absolutely.
• 57:56
  But it just shows that this program is playing for high
• 58:01
  stakes at every opportunity and everybody's working on the top
• 58:05
  of their game. But just having, like having the
• 58:09
  Doctor and the Master in a contemporary setting, I just get
• 58:11
  so many Jumper we vibes here. Like Season 8 vibes?
• 58:16
  Yeah, yeah. This is horrible with them being
• 58:21
  dragged out of the cup. It is, and it's cruel.
• 58:25
  Martha's. Restraint.
• 58:26
  Anger. Well, and of course, yeah, their
• 58:28
  impotence is, again, really dramatic.
• 58:30
  They can only watch at the moment because you know, the
• 58:33
  price of being able to hide in plain sight is, is they can't
• 58:36
  actually do anything at the moment.
• 58:37
  And that is really dramatic. They're essentially stuck behind
• 58:40
  a glass partition while horrible things are happening to people
• 58:43
  on the other side. And and you know, Russell's very
• 58:47
  good at deploying, you know, this perception filter that, you
• 58:50
  know, really helps them observe the action And so bring us there
• 58:54
  too. And and Jack's.
• 58:55
  Jack's, you know, Jack's wrist thing as well.
• 58:59
  It sort of means that we don't have to dither about doing
• 59:01
  annoying, annoying things in order to keep the story going,
• 59:05
  you know? He's very good at creating.
• 59:08
  Not the psychic paper. Isn't it just to get there and
• 59:11
  established? This is one of my favorite parts
• 59:15
  of the Valeon. It's just so.
• 59:18
  I mean, it feels very Thunderbirds to me, but that's
• 59:21
  no bad thing. Look at that shot, that CG shot.
• 59:24
  Yeah. And I love the fact that, yeah,
• 59:27
  the the the Valiant almost becomes a sort of character
• 59:30
  because later because when it gets killed, then it gets
• 59:33
  destroyed. It is a bit like, oh, but it's,
• 59:36
  I mean, again, it's a thing that's on the screen probably
• 59:38
  for the whole of Doctor Who for about 20 seconds, but when the
• 59:41
  Valiant does get destroyed, it is it.
• 59:44
  You do feel like it's a part of the show's history being.
• 59:47
  And it gets that hero moment in the Poison Sky, doesn't it, when
• 59:50
  it comes out. Clears the mist, yeah.
• 59:56
  You know, he's he's a very, very bad man, you know, because not
• 59:59
  only does he murder the American president, but, you know, I've
• 1:00:04
  heard a lot of people say there are allusions to Tony Blair and
• 1:00:07
  terrible things that happened. Yes.
• 1:00:10
  In the end of it. So he's quite a Blair, like
• 1:00:13
  Prime Minister, isn't he? The, you know, the swish,
• 1:00:15
  likable, smiley, you know, guy with his wife, all of that.
• 1:00:22
  You know, it's it's that there's definitely contemporary barbs
• 1:00:26
  and all of this industrial sort of stuff is what Doctor Who does
• 1:00:29
  very well these days. You know these these smoky,
• 1:00:32
  beautifully lit, shadowy settings.
• 1:00:35
  You know they've got real industrial heft to them.
• 1:00:38
  I'm gonna make one complaint, and it's the same complaint I
• 1:00:40
  have with the Suntar structure of the Poison Skies.
• 1:00:43
  I don't think yellow and purple lighting is particularly
• 1:00:48
  dramatic. Oh, interesting.
• 1:00:50
  Yeah, Okay, okay. It's funny how the the, the
• 1:00:55
  color palettes of things do date them in a way that you don't
• 1:00:59
  expect them to when you're watching them at the time.
• 1:01:00
  It's the same with Buffy. I never thought Buffy would look
• 1:01:03
  old fashioned And I've and I've watched a bit of.
• 1:01:06
  I watched, I watched a a new who recently.
• 1:01:10
  I can't remember which one. I think it was a oh, I think it
• 1:01:13
  was Rose. It was Rose and I was and I was
• 1:01:15
  and I was thinking, oh this, this, this does look a bit old
• 1:01:19
  fashioned in places when I remember when it was freshly
• 1:01:22
  minted and that seems really weird.
• 1:01:24
  Because last week, well, yeah. And I remember when it was new
• 1:01:28
  in a way that I don't remember when, you know, the Seeds of
• 1:01:30
  Death was new. You know, it was always
• 1:01:31
  something from the past, but. But things should reflect the
• 1:01:36
  time they were made in. Of course it's not a criticism,
• 1:01:38
  it's but it's just it's it's very odd.
• 1:01:41
  How that stuff comes to bite you in the ass a little bit, you
• 1:01:44
  know where that thing that it was spanking you is now
• 1:01:47
  suddenly? Oh, do you remember when that
• 1:01:49
  came out? Do you granddad?
• 1:01:50
  You know. One of my friends is a teacher
• 1:01:52
  and he was like, Oh yeah, yeah, I remember when Doctor Who
• 1:01:54
  started and he thought he was talking about Unearthly Child
• 1:01:58
  and now it's all about Rose. Well, when we, when we went to
• 1:02:02
  the the the screening of the Sea Devils at the the BFI, they had
• 1:02:07
  a couple of the young women who were in the trailer that Pete
• 1:02:10
  Mctyre directed. And they said, you know, and
• 1:02:14
  they were asked, you know, oh, did you know when you did it
• 1:02:17
  that Doctor Who was a, you know, had been on in the olden days
• 1:02:20
  and this, this young actress went, yeah, yeah, because my, my
• 1:02:23
  dad, he remembers, he remembers it back in the old days, you
• 1:02:27
  know, with the, with the Weeping Angels and you're like, that's
• 1:02:31
  not the old days. Yeah, I feel so like.
• 1:02:34
  I mean, they were lovely, those two girls, but I they were
• 1:02:36
  great. You know the.
• 1:02:39
  Caribalized TARDIS the The Yeah. I remember I got to that point
• 1:02:44
  and I thought, my God, there's so many ideas in this, yeah.
• 1:02:47
  How is this all gonna go here? And he's very good, Russ.
• 1:02:52
  I mean, the news reportage stuff as well, but cutting to cafes
• 1:02:56
  and people watching stuff on the screens just opens in.
• 1:02:59
  It is really effective economic way of opening it out and
• 1:03:05
  bringing it into the everyday world.
• 1:03:07
  He's stolen that from the war machines, you know.
• 1:03:09
  Yeah. Well, and it's it's quite Nigel
• 1:03:11
  Neal used to do that sort of thing as well, people watching
• 1:03:14
  stuff unfolding on a pub television.
• 1:03:19
  Stresses the importance, doesn't it?
• 1:03:21
  And then the drama at the end when the talk of fame attack all
• 1:03:24
  of them. He calls himself president-elect
• 1:03:27
  here, which I think is a mistake.
• 1:03:30
  I think it sounds good. President-elect sounds good in a
• 1:03:32
  bit more formal, but President-elect is the person
• 1:03:34
  waiting to become president while the outgoing president
• 1:03:38
  finishes their term. Maybe that's his get out clause
• 1:03:41
  because when we return to but why well why have they sent the
• 1:03:46
  president-elect then That seems a bit odd.
• 1:03:50
  I I'm not I'm not a great fan of Barack Obama being in in the the
• 1:03:56
  at the end of Time. Yeah it it's it just seems a
• 1:04:00
  little bit sort of giddy to me that going oh great we've got
• 1:04:03
  this brilliant new president so he has to be in Doctor Who.
• 1:04:05
  It seems a bit. I don't know it almost points to
• 1:04:09
  the artifice by having something from the real world in it.
• 1:04:13
  I don't know how, it's how. It's a terrible double as well.
• 1:04:16
  So yes, the handheld camera here is great.
• 1:04:22
  And because of course you've also got the fact that you've
• 1:04:24
  got cameras in there as well. So it's sort of feels like
• 1:04:29
  you're in amongst it and it's being broadcast.
• 1:04:32
  So you've got that kind of meta thing going on?
• 1:04:35
  There's a brilliant clue there as to what the talk of pain are
• 1:04:37
  as well, because when they blast people it's that stead radiation
• 1:04:40
  effect from Utopia. Oh yes, Oh well, yes.
• 1:04:44
  And I love the way that John SIM delivers the line Peoples of the
• 1:04:48
  Earth, please attend. It's almost like because he
• 1:04:50
  wouldn't have known or maybe somebody told him, but he
• 1:04:53
  delivers it like it's a line that the Master knows, he said
• 1:04:56
  before. If only.
• 1:05:00
  If only the person came onto the set and said the same thing
• 1:05:02
  about metabolism. Free, right?
• 1:05:07
  Oh, this is great time in Lazarus as well.
• 1:05:10
  And the technology. Yeah, that's that episode that
• 1:05:13
  felt, you know, benign in the season is actually it's not the
• 1:05:17
  long game, you know, Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:05:20
  And this is great because this is all ramping up now as well.
• 1:05:24
  It's ramping up to the cliffhanger and the tenant's
• 1:05:28
  really acting his socks off. He's giving it the gravitas that
• 1:05:33
  it needs while we get a bit of the back story in.
• 1:05:37
  When he attacks him with the screwdriver that the effects of
• 1:05:40
  him sort of screaming and going really fun and then you got that
• 1:05:43
  weird sort of techno music playing over it as well, it just
• 1:05:46
  feels like everything's gone to shit.
• 1:05:48
  Yeah, it's really hit the fan. I think Sam is playing all this
• 1:05:54
  brilliantly. Yeah, he's great.
• 1:05:56
  He's great. It's basically having to say you
• 1:05:59
  remember that episode you had in the middle of the season.
• 1:06:04
  Yeah, cuz this is all really sort of back story, back story,
• 1:06:07
  back story. But it's it's so well
• 1:06:09
  characterized that. Yeah, it feels like he's not
• 1:06:13
  filling us in. He's actually using the
• 1:06:15
  information to to belittle and upset the doctor, you know?
• 1:06:20
  He even gets like a silly black moment where he goes, you know,
• 1:06:22
  we've flown them in all the way from and this, this is great
• 1:06:28
  that the the little side with Jack and Martha, because she's
• 1:06:31
  got no choice. She's gotta go.
• 1:06:35
  Speaking of somebody that's done a lot of commentaries on genre
• 1:06:38
  television, that's not terrible old age makeup.
• 1:06:40
  I've seen a lot. I think that's superb.
• 1:06:44
  I think that's an incredible job, you know, and it can stand
• 1:06:48
  a real close up as well. And there's something about the
• 1:06:52
  fact that they're tied up with cable ties rather than handcuffs
• 1:06:55
  that makes it worse as well, because therefore you could
• 1:06:57
  really fit, you know, That's really horrible.
• 1:06:59
  I love in the back of that scene there, that Martha's horrifying.
• 1:07:01
  You've got the master coat. Oh, he's so bad and this when
• 1:07:06
  he's when he's saying I can't hear you and all of that.
• 1:07:11
  Oh, and this pays off, doesn't he?
• 1:07:12
  If I told you what they were, your hearts would break.
• 1:07:14
  Yeah, yeah, look at that. So Giddy shot from below the top
• 1:07:19
  of his head. This is this is my favorite part
• 1:07:24
  of the episode. Here come the drums.
• 1:07:27
  I like the way it says Earthlings as well.
• 1:07:31
  And just like I was watching it and the sky tears open and they
• 1:07:36
  all come out and I'm like, what is going on, you know, But in a
• 1:07:40
  good way. Not in.
• 1:07:41
  I don't have a clue what's going on.
• 1:07:43
  This is so exciting. I always like it when Russell
• 1:07:49
  throws the song in because I don't know much about music but
• 1:07:52
  it makes it makes Doctor Who feel cool and modern and
• 1:07:55
  relevant to A to to to a bit of a square like me.
• 1:07:58
  I don't resist it at all. I love it.
• 1:08:00
  I loved it when Toxic was in. I love her little dance that she
• 1:08:03
  does. She's she's like a sort of
• 1:08:05
  broken marionette when Toxics in the end of the world, you know
• 1:08:11
  it it just felt Oh my, my funny old program is is is being cool
• 1:08:17
  for the young people and I like it.
• 1:08:20
  I just have a bit of a dance. It breaks my heart when I see
• 1:08:23
  those versions of the last of the time it was without.
• 1:08:25
  I can't decide what the Scissor Sisters yeah was.
• 1:08:27
  Did Netflix cut it out or something?
• 1:08:29
  Yeah, it was the one version. I I of course I I mean, I I
• 1:08:33
  rarely buy music. But I I bought this and I bought
• 1:08:37
  the Scissor Sister song. I was hypothetic.
• 1:08:40
  I get all the songs that have been in Doctor Who.
• 1:08:43
  These shots of the toclephone coming down and then that one
• 1:08:46
  coming straight at the camera, yeah.
• 1:08:49
  I just never envisaged Doctor Who looking like this.
• 1:08:52
  I also, it's a really Doctor Who thing as well, is to go.
• 1:08:56
  We're going to point out the true meaning of the word
• 1:08:58
  decimate at this point because people use.
• 1:09:01
  It's a word that's used incorrectly by people all the
• 1:09:03
  time. So he goes, well actually I'll
• 1:09:06
  throw in a friend of mine who's a teacher texted me.
• 1:09:09
  But I love the fact that when the Master killed everybody, he
• 1:09:12
  did it by correctly giving the correct meaning of the word
• 1:09:16
  decimate. It's got his priorities right,
• 1:09:20
  But I mean, it's just as dark as the show gets.
• 1:09:24
  Yeah, I mean, I think, I think you probably as as a programmed
• 1:09:28
  Doctor Who fan at this point, know that there's no way that
• 1:09:31
  they can't wreck on this. But that was the exciting thing
• 1:09:34
  for me. Well, I was like, how are they
• 1:09:36
  going to undo this? Yeah, I love this part of the
• 1:09:40
  score as well. This the score is really feel
• 1:09:43
  like it's leading to a oh Doctor Who's going to be a bit post
• 1:09:46
  apocalyptic for a bit. And I and I like, I love the
• 1:09:49
  Martha Jones wandering the earth and and this shocks, that's kind
• 1:09:52
  of saying she, you know, she's the only one in any position to
• 1:09:55
  do anything and she's basically in a field that's on fire on her
• 1:09:59
  own without even a change of pants.
• 1:10:01
  Death raining down on that London skyline that we're so
• 1:10:04
  used to seeing? Yeah.
• 1:10:07
  And then then the the misquote from the Bible as well.
• 1:10:11
  Is it the Bible he's quoting? And I thought it good, but I
• 1:10:15
  thought it good. It's it's Paradise Lost, isn't
• 1:10:18
  it? I'm.
• 1:10:20
  Not sure it's fantastic though. And the music here was like and
• 1:10:26
  I thought it good. Yeah, and I'm a tenant.
• 1:10:30
  Hasn't said anything for ages, but it's all in the eyes.
• 1:10:34
  And I noticed plenty of that was without dialogue.
• 1:10:37
  So them raining down, you seeing it from their point of view,
• 1:10:41
  them attacking people in their homes.
• 1:10:43
  And like a lot of, it's quite cinematic.
• 1:10:45
  In that respect, Murray Golds is vital to that McFly as
• 1:10:53
  themselves. Actually, do you know what?
• 1:10:57
  Compare to LE? This is going at a reasonably
• 1:10:59
  steady pace these credits. Yeah and I'm quite pleased
• 1:11:03
  though cuz I've got my finger on the button. iPlayer has not been
• 1:11:06
  saying to me I'm gonna jump away from the credits now because
• 1:11:11
  although we want to inform education and entertain we don't
• 1:11:13
  expect you to be able to read words.
• 1:11:16
  But no I'm very happy with this. I was watching I've been
• 1:11:20
  watching Children of Earth just for fun and but the but the
• 1:11:26
  credits zoom past and it's a it's a different kind of fun.
• 1:11:30
  It's because the next time trailers at the end, that's why
• 1:11:32
  they haven't jumped and I think this is a fairly silent next
• 1:11:39
  time trailer. It's all it's all just the drums
• 1:11:43
  and quick clip, Quick, quick clip, clip, clip, clip.
• 1:11:47
  It's basically a trailer as directed by Graham Harper.
• 1:11:50
  Yeah, it's kind of in space. People can only hear you
• 1:11:52
  drumming now. It's asking to go to the next
• 1:11:58
  episode. You should do that all the time,
• 1:12:00
  iPlayer. Or you should always imagine
• 1:12:02
  there's a trailer coming. That for me not even the stolen
• 1:12:06
  earth. Had the cliffhanger impact that
• 1:12:10
  that one did for me, and I think Wimbledon was on or something at
• 1:12:13
  the time because my mom was watching that a lot.
• 1:12:16
  But I just watched this episode over and over again because I
• 1:12:18
  just wanted to figure out how it was all going to end.
• 1:12:21
  Isn't that great? It's great.
• 1:12:26
  I think there's nothing wrong with that episode.
• 1:12:30
  I'll say to you going in, didn't I?
• 1:12:31
  I think the first episode is pretty flawless.
• 1:12:34
  Yeah. Yeah, it's excellent.
• 1:12:37
  The atmosphere and the pacing and the buildup is fantastic.
• 1:12:43
  And like you said, we slingshot, don't we?
• 1:12:45
  From comedy to high drama to melodrama to a flashbacks, you
• 1:12:52
  know there's all sorts going on in there.
• 1:12:54
  It's stuffed. But I definitely remember at the
• 1:12:58
  time that the feeling was, or maybe it was after the second
• 1:13:03
  episode, but the feeling was that this finale had not been as
• 1:13:06
  strong as previous ones because they'd, you know, for the first
• 1:13:11
  time they'd have to go well, we're not going to do it with
• 1:13:14
  any of the big monsters. Okay, they they've got the
• 1:13:16
  master, they've got the him. But the, you know, the monsters
• 1:13:19
  of the the the talk of fame, which are essentially sort of
• 1:13:21
  babyish footballs, you know, Sontara and spaceships with
• 1:13:25
  scissors. But I I remember there was a
• 1:13:29
  sort of feeling of AW that wasn't quite, whereas I think
• 1:13:33
  now it stands up really, really well.
• 1:13:36
  I think it's really strong. Well, before we out this very
• 1:13:43
  strong episode, would you indulge me with answering a few
• 1:13:47
  questions from Twitter? Cuz I think if I do it all at
• 1:13:49
  the end, yes. Well, our Twitter's been cuz the
• 1:13:53
  questions. I mean our Twitter.
• 1:13:54
  I've not really read them because I knew you were going to
• 1:13:59
  read them out. But our Twitter was a blaze.
• 1:14:02
  It was, and a lot of opinions as well.
• 1:14:05
  I felt I apologized to you at some point during the day
• 1:14:08
  because I was like, oh, this poor bloody phone must be going
• 1:14:10
  off like crazy. It was.
• 1:14:11
  It was beeping a bit. But it's all right.
• 1:14:14
  Yes, it was punctuating me writing about Nigel Neal, but
• 1:14:18
  there we go. It's all right.
• 1:14:20
  I'm gonna try and find questions that are specifically linked.
• 1:14:25
  I think a lot of them are about loss of the Time Lords.
• 1:14:28
  Do we think for Hannah? That Mrs. Simon Templar, do we
• 1:14:33
  think this master could have deliberately stolen the face of
• 1:14:35
  Sam Tyler? Ah, well, I mean, I certainly
• 1:14:40
  feel that at the time, this piece of casting really helped
• 1:14:47
  cement Doctor Who as part of, you know, the cultural landscape
• 1:14:51
  that everybody was was talking about it.
• 1:14:54
  It seemed too good to be true. You know, there was this other
• 1:14:57
  scifi show that people loved that had John Simm who was, you
• 1:15:01
  know, already a well regarded actor.
• 1:15:03
  But he was doing, you know, something with a bit of genre
• 1:15:06
  going into it and you think, oh okay, this is great.
• 1:15:08
  And now he's crossing over into Doctor Who, it felt, and he's
• 1:15:12
  got the same surname as Rose. It felt, you know, it felt like
• 1:15:16
  Doctor Who instead of being this funny little, you know, thing
• 1:15:20
  floating, floating on the outside that people was was, you
• 1:15:24
  know, sort of front and center and sort of almost controlling
• 1:15:27
  the narrative of what everybody was consuming and liking.
• 1:15:33
  But I don't think Sam Tyler can exist in the Doctor Who
• 1:15:37
  universe, can he? Probably not.
• 1:15:39
  My it's a nice idea, but maybe that's a little too mess.
• 1:15:43
  Okay. Here's a I was like, how could I
• 1:15:45
  possibly ask Toby this question? But I'm going to so Joe Short,
• 1:15:50
  the lovely Joe Short at The Brain of Spock.
• 1:15:54
  Apart from all Tory Mp's, who we would all include if you had a
• 1:15:59
  chance to kill off 10% of the world's population, who would
• 1:16:03
  you choose? Oh gosh, well, I'm a I'm a
• 1:16:09
  lover, not a fighter. Can't.
• 1:16:10
  I can't I make just not have sex with 10% of the population?
• 1:16:17
  So well, no, I mean no I, I, I, I I mean I know it's only a
• 1:16:23
  question with tongue firmly in the cheek.
• 1:16:25
  So I suppose I could say something like people who
• 1:16:29
  consider Utopia part one of a three-part story or something
• 1:16:33
  like that. Anybody who describes the 2nd
• 1:16:39
  Doctor Who story is the Daleks, The Mutants aka the Daleks.
• 1:16:43
  There's a whole list. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:16:47
  But sorry, I'm sorry. My my notifications seem to be
• 1:16:51
  beeping. I hope you're not picking that
• 1:16:53
  up. I don't know what's happening.
• 1:16:57
  I think something must have happened in the news.
• 1:16:58
  We'll we'll turn this off and find out that that the 10% of
• 1:17:02
  the population have been dissimated.
• 1:17:04
  Something because my my phone hasn't.
• 1:17:06
  My phone hasn't pinged like this since Russell T Davis announced
• 1:17:09
  he was coming back to Doctor Who.
• 1:17:10
  I thought somebody had died then, but 10%?
• 1:17:14
  So what? 10% because he chooses a random
• 1:17:16
  10% of the population. I'll tell you what my 10% is.
• 1:17:20
  Anybody who listens to music on public transport, either with
• 1:17:26
  leaky headphones or now. A phenomenon that I'm shocked,
• 1:17:30
  as as even arisen in a civilized society in the 21st century.
• 1:17:33
  People who don't bother to use any headphones at all.
• 1:17:36
  I would they seem to be on the increase.
• 1:17:38
  So this problem I would happily eradicate those fuckers.
• 1:17:43
  That's a great answer Luke is lost on Gallifrey asks.
• 1:17:51
  Is this the perfect master for this story?
• 1:17:55
  Yes I think he is. And as as we've discussed I I
• 1:18:00
  think the he he is the is the other side of David Tennant's
• 1:18:04
  coin and it's it's a it's a smart piece of casting aside
• 1:18:10
  from you know the status of the actor and all and all of that.
• 1:18:12
  But just in terms of their physicality, the energy of their
• 1:18:14
  performances that that they're slightly sort of wiryness the
• 1:18:18
  attack that they both have yet he is the perfect he he he
• 1:18:22
  doesn't quite he's not quite. I think when I imagined the
• 1:18:27
  storyline, I imagined A smoother politician.
• 1:18:31
  I don't think if this wasn't a story about the Master and the
• 1:18:35
  Doctor, if it was a story about a guy who, without any hypnosis,
• 1:18:39
  had managed to inveigle his way into the highest seat of the
• 1:18:43
  land, I think I would have expected a more sort of suave,
• 1:18:47
  sophisticated, charming sort of type to have become this
• 1:18:55
  Machiavellian politician. But obviously the story gets us
• 1:19:00
  away from that again. Well, yeah, no, he's, he is
• 1:19:03
  obviously he he has obviously messed with people's perception,
• 1:19:07
  which is why, because he's not. Because he's obviously a bit
• 1:19:10
  childish and a bit. So he doesn't quite fit to me
• 1:19:14
  the image of of the guy that would become Prime Minister
• 1:19:18
  through sheer force of cunning and charisma because he's he's
• 1:19:26
  he's they've gone for something slightly different.
• 1:19:29
  So and and I think that was perhaps one of my misgivings
• 1:19:35
  about it is it. But actually, the story explains
• 1:19:37
  that that that it does work within the context of the story.
• 1:19:40
  If you don't go in with any sort of preconditions of what you
• 1:19:44
  imagine your charming false Prime Minister to be like, you
• 1:19:49
  know, which is not this sort of giggly, childish thing.
• 1:19:53
  And how he sees that technology as the way that the master
• 1:19:57
  hypnotize everybody. So he can use that in the climax
• 1:20:00
  of the story, the market to bring him down is beautiful.
• 1:20:06
  Okay. Couple more.
• 1:20:06
  Then Tom Newsome asked how prescient were Rtd's
• 1:20:10
  cartoonishly evil politician baddies.
• 1:20:15
  Well, I mean again I having you know those those endorsements
• 1:20:23
  from famous people, you go, you know, you wonder is the is the
• 1:20:26
  joke on them. Part of my worry about that
• 1:20:31
  though is, is that because Doctor Who was riding so high at
• 1:20:35
  that point part of you is going, but hang on, you're giving these
• 1:20:38
  people kudos by them being in Doctor Who.
• 1:20:40
  It's not like 2 years before where Doctor Who was benefiting
• 1:20:44
  from anybody with any clout associating themselves with it.
• 1:20:48
  You know, Simon Callow comes in as Dickens and you go, well
• 1:20:50
  that's that's going to give Doctor Who a bit of a bit of
• 1:20:56
  respectability and bit of kudos that it currently doesn't have
• 1:21:01
  because it's the Doctor Who whatever.
• 1:21:03
  Whereas by now you know everyone's queuing up to be a
• 1:21:06
  Doctor Who. So in a way, you could almost
• 1:21:10
  say, well, by having Anne, we know she's having the piss taken
• 1:21:13
  out of her in a way, if you if you want to read it like that,
• 1:21:16
  it's also probably one, paying her and two giving her a
• 1:21:21
  platform that makes you. But I'm slightly uneasy about
• 1:21:25
  that because she's a terrible person.
• 1:21:28
  You remember, this is a woman that was so desperate for
• 1:21:30
  exposure she when I Strictly Come Dancing and was dragged
• 1:21:33
  around the floor dressed up as a Canary.
• 1:21:35
  Well, and that's my problem. Then again, when somebody like
• 1:21:37
  that, because she came a bit of a sort of national treasure but
• 1:21:40
  actually if you look at her politics they are they are
• 1:21:43
  deeply unpleasant. You know, not just I'm not and I
• 1:21:46
  don't just mean, you know, slightly at odds with my world
• 1:21:51
  view. I mean I actually think quite
• 1:21:53
  dangerous and unkind and cruel and hiding behind a profession
• 1:21:59
  of morality that I find flawed and hypocritical and and I have
• 1:22:06
  very and I'm quite difficult in in rationalizing that with her
• 1:22:10
  being in my favorite program even though her presence there
• 1:22:14
  is kind of a gag going. Yeah yeah that she she you know
• 1:22:18
  she likes the most evil man in the universe.
• 1:22:20
  The joke is on her but actually is it because she was paid to be
• 1:22:24
  and doctor you know it's tricky it it it it plays it makes you
• 1:22:30
  think but I think that's in but that's good as well I think
• 1:22:32
  that's interesting. I think I you know you can
• 1:22:34
  wrestle with that objectively and it not be because again I
• 1:22:38
  think if this happened today people would be taking it way
• 1:22:41
  too personally and and calling for this to be cancelled or that
• 1:22:44
  to be because because and I think you go no you you tell
• 1:22:46
  it's a piece of drama it's not real.
• 1:22:48
  You take a step away from it and you you you chew over those
• 1:22:50
  issues and that makes us that gives us that's good brain
• 1:22:54
  fodder and it and it and it and it and it and it means that the
• 1:22:57
  national conversation circles around you have to be a bit more
• 1:23:00
  objective I think about things like that and I I at any unease
• 1:23:04
  I have is is you know is is objectively is objectively
• 1:23:08
  wrought really but the the politicians thing.
• 1:23:10
  Well yeah I mean I mean we always are nostalgic about the
• 1:23:18
  past but it seems to me that the current crop of politicians and
• 1:23:22
  the way that we conduct our political life and and the tenor
• 1:23:25
  of political discourse is at an all time low.
• 1:23:28
  And I look back fondly to those times when I thought every lot,
• 1:23:32
  lot of people were pretty dodgy back there, I think.
• 1:23:35
  But at least at least they had a veneer of respectability.
• 1:23:38
  They don't even bother with that now.
• 1:23:40
  They've realized that they don't even have to conduct themselves
• 1:23:43
  with any sort of form of decorum.
• 1:23:46
  Now that's that. You know, I I quite like the
• 1:23:49
  hypocrisy of the old days where at least we pretended that our
• 1:23:51
  politicians weren't female scum suckers.
• 1:23:54
  What we need is the masters to take up position at Downing St.
• 1:23:57
  you know, and we'll play out the particular scene in this.
• 1:24:01
  Now, what's interesting because the last question I'm going to
• 1:24:04
  ask you, I think you've just answered this, but I'll ask it
• 1:24:07
  anyway. David GPR Should the sound of
• 1:24:10
  drums be edited to remove a certain controversial former
• 1:24:13
  politician from the sled cameo slot?
• 1:24:17
  That's David GP, by the way. You still follow on Twitter
• 1:24:20
  because he does really good things with sort of obscure but
• 1:24:26
  enjoyable bits of trivia about old programs.
• 1:24:31
  No, I'm not a believer in editing the past.
• 1:24:35
  That's what that's what the party did in 1984, a day with
• 1:24:39
  the bad guys. You shouldn't be afraid that the
• 1:24:41
  past has happened and it's got us to where we are today.
• 1:24:44
  And if we are to understand today, we should be again,
• 1:24:47
  objectively able to look at things that happened in the past
• 1:24:51
  and view them in context. If you can't view something in
• 1:24:54
  the past in context without being upset, I I I think you
• 1:24:58
  need to do a bit of work. Because because the past has got
• 1:25:02
  us to where it's happened, you can't do anything about it and
• 1:25:05
  rewriting it is dangerous. And if we if we pretend what
• 1:25:09
  went before us didn't happen, we could never live in a truthful
• 1:25:12
  version of today of the present. Because you've you've you've
• 1:25:18
  you've like you you you you fictionalized the journey to get
• 1:25:21
  us to this place. To understand the present you
• 1:25:23
  have to understand the past as it was not a sanitized version
• 1:25:27
  of it. And I don't I don't like
• 1:25:29
  censorship and counselor you know and and and removal of
• 1:25:33
  stuff anyway. I don't think it behoves us and
• 1:25:37
  I don't think it's healthy. We shouldn't always be.
• 1:25:40
  We shouldn't always be protected from stuff that we find
• 1:25:43
  uncomfortable, because it's in the things that we find
• 1:25:46
  uncomfortable that we learn about what's acceptable and what
• 1:25:49
  isn't. And again, the past allows us to
• 1:25:51
  contextualize that because it's over and done and it's happened.
• 1:25:56
  I'm dangerously close to quoting a line from the Aztecs, then.
• 1:26:00
  And I also do like I also do like the dog, but I do like the
• 1:26:06
  suggestion that she is the quintessence of evil, because
• 1:26:09
  she has a line herself with the master.
• 1:26:11
  I know it gives her a platform. It's kind of a funny joke as
• 1:26:14
  well, yeah. But also I think, and this isn't
• 1:26:17
  done of enough I don't think, because I don't like Ann
• 1:26:20
  Widdecombe, the people who might be sympathetic to her politics.
• 1:26:25
  And I, you know, I'm one of those are fashion people who
• 1:26:26
  thinks the people who have different political views for me
• 1:26:29
  might have very good reasons for coming to the conclusions that
• 1:26:32
  they've come to. They don't want to destroy the
• 1:26:34
  world. They just think that their
• 1:26:36
  approach to making the world a better place is a more sensible
• 1:26:38
  one than mine. And I think sometimes, again,
• 1:26:41
  particularly those of us have a sort of liberal sensibility,
• 1:26:43
  could be a bit censorious these days.
• 1:26:46
  And and the dismissal of anybody with a country view to yours and
• 1:26:52
  and and the desire to raise them or whatever is, is actually
• 1:26:56
  illiberal and counterproductive. And you know, we go there at our
• 1:27:02
  peril. So just cuz I don't like Amber,
• 1:27:04
  it doesn't mean that she shouldn't be in a program.
• 1:27:08
  Just as I don't take it personally when there's a when
• 1:27:11
  there's a meal on a menu that isn't to my taste.
• 1:27:15
  Do you know what I mean? We need to get over ourselves a
• 1:27:19
  little bit. I think sometimes I.
• 1:27:21
  See Toby, you are as smart as ever.
• 1:27:23
  I could sit here and listen to you all day, but we should
• 1:27:26
  probably end this episode and head into Last of the Time
• 1:27:30
  Lords, if you're ready to do so. Well, yes, I suppose.
• 1:27:34
  I suppose we should end by saying we we watched this
• 1:27:38
  episode, Joe, and we found it good.