Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #302 Guest Host Jimmy Dennis with Chester Hollman III

Transcript

#302 Guest Host Jimmy Dennis with Chester Hollman III · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flam, host of wrongful conviction. Over the years,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: hundreds of exanneries have told me their stories, and sadly,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: with the state of our criminal legal system, we're left
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: with far more cases than I can possibly handle alone.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: So I've asked some exuneries to handle some of these cases,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: is one of those interviews.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: On a hot August night in nineteen ninety one, University
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: of Pennsylvania grad student t jung Hoe was walking with
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: his friend at Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. A white Chevy
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: blazer with four people inside pulled up beside them. Two
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: of them got out of the car, robbed t jung
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Hoe and shot him. He died of his injuries. A
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: few hours later. A cab driver witnessed the shooting. He
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: told police what he saw and what he remembered of
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: the license place the first three letters YCA. Just a
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: few minutes later, the police pulled over a white Chevy
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: blazer with YCA on the plate. They thought they caught
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: the criminal. He was a twenty one year old Chester
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: home in the third he didn't match the description of
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: the shooter, and there were only two people in his car,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: not four. Chester didn't have a weapon nor anything from
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: the robbery. Nevertheless, he was arrested and taken to the station.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: In May nineteen ninety three, he was sentenced to life
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: in prison without the possibility of parole. This is wrongful conviction.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: My name is Jimmy A.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: Dennis.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: I spent twenty five point five years on death row
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: for a crime I didn't commit. I was a guest
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: on wrong for conviction and talked to Jason about my
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: own experience in the criminal justice system years ago. But
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: today I'll be your guest host. I'm here with Chester
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Holme in the third He and I know each other well.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Our stories overlap and highlight the patterns of misconduct in the.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: Philadelphia criminal justice system.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Chester, as Jason always says, I'm happy you're here, but
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: I'm not happy that you're here.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: Could you introduce yourself.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Chester Holman. I've served twenty eight years on a wrong
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: for conviction. I've now been home since twenty nineteen.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: And today we're also joined by your attorney, Alan Tarboro.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us today.
• 2:45
  Speaker 5: Alan.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: Could you introduce yourself as well.
• 2:48
  Speaker 6: Hi Jimmy. My name is Alan Tarboro. I'm an attorney.
• 2:51
  Speaker 6: I've been practicing law since nineteen eighty nine, most of
• 2:54
  Speaker 6: which has been criminal defense and civil rights. And I
• 2:59
  Speaker 6: met Chester and two thousand and four, two thousand and five,
• 3:03
  Speaker 6: I had the distinction and honor of representing him for
• 3:06
  Speaker 6: fifteen years before we actually won his exoneration. Every time
• 3:10
  Speaker 6: I see him and talk to him outside of the prison,
• 3:14
  Speaker 6: it just brightens my heart.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: Remarkable Chester.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I want to ask you, my friend, what was your
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: life like prior to being stolen away for a crime
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: you didn't commit.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: I was born in Chester, Pennsylvania. That's where I grew up,
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: and then we at some point we moved to Delaware, Womington, Delaware.
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: You know it was I said, it was a regular life.
• 3:39
  Speaker 6: You know.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: My father worked very hard. You know, my mother was
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: on dialysis. You know, me and my sister, you know,
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: we were involved and you know from the time I
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: can remember it with sports and some type of activity.
• 3:51
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: I went to community college and I started off at
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: a Wimington community college and I moved to Fildelphia Community
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: College and I was studying actual criminal justice. I didn't
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: know which field I wanted to go to. I know,
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: if it was law enforcement or you know, some type
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: of legal field, but that's what I was doing. Then
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: I got a job at a as an armored card guard.
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: I was driving for Brooks Armored Car. I went moved
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: to Philadelphia, down Northffilly to BroadOn Gerard and I was
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: there and uh, you know, just living my life. I
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: thought the world was my oyster, and I think I
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: had all these plans of how things were going to
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: eventually end up being and uh, just one that one
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: tragic night, it just all came to a crashing end.
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: And spent the next twenty eight years fighting to get back.
• 4:34
  Speaker 6: When you practice criminal defense, one of the old adages
• 4:38
  Speaker 6: is one of things you hear is that there's no
• 4:39
  Speaker 6: such thing as coincidences, right. But the other rule is
• 4:42
  Speaker 6: there's always an exception to that case, and Chester Holman's
• 4:45
  Speaker 6: case is the exception. Chester was the victim of, you know,
• 4:50
  Speaker 6: many things, but most substantially he was a victim of
• 4:53
  Speaker 6: a very very remarkable and crazy coincidence. And that is
• 5:01
  Speaker 6: in this case, which was a terrible case, a terrible
• 5:04
  Speaker 6: brutal killing of a student, the perpetrators drove up to
• 5:12
  Speaker 6: this young man at one am in Center City, was
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: walking home from a It was walking home from the
• 5:18
  Speaker 6: University of Pennsylvania campus, and there were four people in
• 5:22
  Speaker 6: a white Chevy Blazer. Two men get out, two women
• 5:26
  Speaker 6: remained in the cars, sort of the getaway driver. The
• 5:29
  Speaker 6: two men run up to the victim, push him to
• 5:32
  Speaker 6: the ground, shoot him, and rob him of his wallet.
• 5:36
  Speaker 6: There was a woman with him. His friend standing directly
• 5:39
  Speaker 6: next to him witnessed the entire thing from three feet
• 5:41
  Speaker 6: two three feet away. They get into a white Chevy
• 5:45
  Speaker 6: Blazer and drive away. It's one am. It's hot August night.
• 5:49
  Speaker 6: Actually a lot of people out in Center City and
• 5:52
  Speaker 6: the vehicle is trailed. Is followed by a cab driver
• 5:55
  Speaker 6: who witnesses this, and the cab driver gets half of
• 5:58
  Speaker 6: the vehicle's tag, follows him through traffic for a few
• 6:03
  Speaker 6: blocks and disappears. Yza right, that was the letters doesn't
• 6:07
  Speaker 6: get the numbers as the vehicle turns out to have
• 6:11
  Speaker 6: been rented by I think it was Enterprise. They had
• 6:15
  Speaker 6: three three identical vehicles on rental in Philadelphia that same
• 6:19
  Speaker 6: day and the vehicle. What made this even more astonishing
• 6:24
  Speaker 6: is they bought and put into service these three vehicles
• 6:28
  Speaker 6: at the same day, so when they registered them, they
• 6:31
  Speaker 6: got tags YZA zero zero one, Why ZA is year
• 6:35
  Speaker 6: zero two? Why is is YEZER three? And the cab
• 6:37
  Speaker 6: driver only got the letters that repeated, not the numbers.
• 6:42
  Speaker 6: As it happens, Chester's driving one of those other vehicles
• 6:45
  Speaker 6: that had been rented by his roommate and had been
• 6:48
  Speaker 6: loan given to him to use that weekend. He's driving
• 6:52
  Speaker 6: toward the crime scene. He's stopped five minutes, not five
• 6:56
  Speaker 6: minutes after the murder. Driving toward the crime scene in
• 6:59
  Speaker 6: the idea, I dentical vehicle with the same tag, and
• 7:03
  Speaker 6: he meets the general description of what one of the
• 7:06
  Speaker 6: perpetrators look like. The young woman in the car with
• 7:09
  Speaker 6: him DJ Jones met the general description of of one
• 7:12
  Speaker 6: of the women in the car, and they stop him.
• 7:15
  Speaker 6: And I mean, I could imagine you're a young police
• 7:18
  Speaker 6: officer and that's who stopped him. You're thinking, man, I
• 7:20
  Speaker 6: just solved this crime. I got you know, you know,
• 7:23
  Speaker 6: you got a car with the tag. You're thinking you
• 7:26
  Speaker 6: solved the crime. Well, all the people involved in this
• 7:29
  Speaker 6: case were then convinced they solved the crime. Never mind
• 7:32
  Speaker 6: that Chester was not wearing his clothing didn't match any
• 7:35
  Speaker 6: of the description the witnesses gave. Never Mind that there
• 7:38
  Speaker 6: were only two people, not four people in the car.
• 7:40
  Speaker 6: Never Mind there's no proceeds of the robbery, no weapon,
• 7:44
  Speaker 6: and he's driving back towards the scene. Never Mind all that.
• 7:47
  Speaker 6: Never Mind the fact that the young woman who was
• 7:50
  Speaker 6: with the person who was killed can't identify Chester. Other
• 7:54
  Speaker 6: than the vehicle, nothing else lined up.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Chester. Tell me about your note that night and you
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: were out, and what you were doing, and where you
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: were going, and whom you had with you. Talk about
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: that a little bit for me.
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: I had to just returned home from Delaware. I went
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: down to my parents' house, and I spent most of
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: the day in Delaware, and I was there to about
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: maybe midnight. I left there and I went home to
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: where I lived on Broad and Gerard came out the garage,
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: went around front, and I passed Deirdre, her sister, and
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: I spoke to him, and Sheddre asked me where I
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: was going except to my apartment. So and then I said,
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: what do you want to do now? Because this was
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: my first full day of vacation. I had never had
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: a vacation in my life.
• 8:39
  Speaker 7: On a job.
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: So you know that Monday, I was starting vacation for
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: a week vacation and I paid vacation.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah that's what I'm talking about.
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm excited. You know, I ain't ready to
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: go to sleep this Saturday night. I mean, I was like, litten,
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: let's you want to go somewhere, But we didn't know
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: where to go. So I was like, listen, I had
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: a friend who lived down on a fifty second in Greenway.
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: I sai, let's go down here check out him. So
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: we get downstairs, and I had a black Toyo to
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: Sellica GT at the time, and then we also had
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: the Blazer. So I asked her which car she wanted
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: to take, So let's take the Blazer to put the
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: miles on that car rather than my car. So so
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: we get out, we pull out, and we circle around
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: and we go straight down to broad Street. As soon
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: as we turned on to Lombard, there was I mean,
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: there wasn't a car or person in sight. I mean
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: I've never seen Philly like this. I mean it was
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: like a dead zone. So I knew something wasn't right,
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: but I kept going and I turned the music down
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: and we approached the first light on Lombard and I
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: stopped at that light and I saw a police car
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: going north. So when the light turned green, I proceeded
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: forward and you know, I'm looking in the rear view mirrors.
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: Next thing, you know, the lights pop on.
• 9:55
  Speaker 7: So I was like, damn, what did I do?
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: So I pull over, like a half a block down.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: I pull over and next thing you know, they jump
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: out with guns drawn.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, I know.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: That was very uncomfortable.
• 10:08
  Speaker 7: Yeah, so I asked you, I said, what we do?
• 10:09
  Speaker 7: What we do?
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: She said, I don't know, I don't know. Next thing
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: you know, they're in front of the car with the
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: guns pointed at us. You know, we got our hands
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: up and they took us out the car and uh
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: put the handcuffs on us, and uh.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: You night mare began.
• 10:25
  Speaker 7: Yes, tell me how.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: You felt being arrested and then subsequently being taken to
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: the police station and what happened in that interrogation room
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: with those police detectives.
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: Well, that that night, after we were put out the car,
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: I was placed in the back of a police car
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: and I saw Djre being placed in another car and
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: I didn't I didn't know where we were going. But
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: later found out we were being taken to the scene
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: of the crime. So when we got there, uh, there
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: was like maybe four or five people underneath the street.
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: Like I saw police officers take these four or five people,
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: whoever whatever it was, go to Deidrich where she was,
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: and they opened the back door and I saw him looking,
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: and then they came back and did the same thing
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: to me, and I made sure I stuck my head
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: out so they could see me, and you know, everybody
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: was like I heard everybody say, that's not him, that's
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: not him. And then uh, I heard over the police
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: radio saying the guy had died. Take take the suspect
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: to homicide. So I said what So when I heard that,
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: I said, I said, you know, my first thought is
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: this is a murder. So you know, I was like,
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: what so I'm telling I said, officer, I said, you got.
• 11:35
  Speaker 7: The wrong guy. I'm tall, you got the wrong guy.
• 11:38
  Speaker 7: And when I get in.
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: The car, when an officer said he said you're done now,
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: he said You're never going to see the light of day.
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: And I was like, you know, I'm just sitting in
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: his back seets like, hon now, what does this happened?
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: So we get to aph and Race and they take
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: me upstairs and put me in this room that's freezing,
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: and I see this green chair. This bolted to the floor,
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: so they put me in this chair. They handcuffed me
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: to this chair, and I'm just sitting there like freezing,
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: like this cannot be happening. So my first interaction with
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: the officer was Detective Jeff Pyrie. He came in and
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: I'm a little excited, like to tell my story and
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: try to get this all worked out. So I'm thinking
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: it's gonna work out, and he comes in and punches
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: me right in the mouth. He said, you like killing
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: people in my city, right, you know what I mean.
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: So I was just like looking at him. I ain't
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: know what to say or do. So I'm just sitting
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: there and he walks out. I'm sitting there just like stunned,
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: like this is this is bad. I'm just in this
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: is bad. I told him. I said, I worked for
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: Brooks Armor Car.
• 12:40
  Speaker 7: You know what I mean?
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: I said, I don't know what happened, I said, but
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: I drive around millions of dollars. I'm in and out
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: of the banks Garden Street Park, were picking up money.
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm I got three million dollars on the
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: average in the back of my truck every day.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Right, You're an honorable citizen. You are a good citizen
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: of Philadelphia.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: Period.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: So I said, if I wanted to rob somebody, I'm
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: gonna ribe a commerce on the street. I'm gonna pull
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: this truck and just keep going.
• 13:05
  Speaker 7: Looking back.
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: Where I feel like I really messed up was first
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: of all speaking to him in the first place. But
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: I just figured that, you know, since I had nothing
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: to hide, it was okay to talk. And then by
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: me working for Brooks, you know, I thought that would
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: just like bolster my innocence. And he showed him that
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: I had no reason to rob anybody. But it didn't happen.
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: So I told him that I had a gun back
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: in my apartment, my work gun, and I told him
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: where it was in my apartment. So I got my badge,
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: my my bulletproof rounds of AMMO was in my bottom
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: drawer inside my bedroom. And you know, later on down
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: the road, come to find out it was all used
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: against me.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: You did not mess up. We are taught in this
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: country that the police are our friends from the town.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: We are babies, and that we are supposed to go
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: down to the police station, cooperate and do us right,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: And that's all you did. You did what any actual
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: citizen would do. Now we know that you can't even
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: talked to them at all because they are not trustworthy.
• 14:03
  Speaker 6: That is exactly what Chester's mindset was. Because we've talked
• 14:08
  Speaker 6: about this, you were like, you thought they would figure
• 14:11
  Speaker 6: it out, they would work This is gonna get worked out.
• 14:13
  Speaker 6: They're going to get to the bottom of this. There's
• 14:14
  Speaker 6: a mistake. At some point, the police stop becoming detectives,
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: they stop trying to discern the truth, and they start
• 14:21
  Speaker 6: becoming advocates, and they start to do. Everything they do
• 14:25
  Speaker 6: is to build the case, to make it stronger against
• 14:29
  Speaker 6: who they've in their judgment or they've decided is guilty,
• 14:32
  Speaker 6: as opposed to continuing to investigate and try to get
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: to the actual truth tunnel vision. Yeah, and that is
• 14:40
  Speaker 6: one of the things I have learned in the system,
• 14:42
  Speaker 6: is that police the culture or the science of policing.
• 14:48
  Speaker 6: It's more of the culture of policing is we are
• 14:51
  Speaker 6: trying to get to the truth to a point. But
• 14:53
  Speaker 6: once we've decide or we discern in our judgment who
• 14:57
  Speaker 6: it is, everything that that point, because how to build
• 15:00
  Speaker 6: the case against that person. And they will ignore other evidence,
• 15:06
  Speaker 6: they will suppress other evidence.
• 15:08
  Speaker 8: They will hid it, they will destroy it correct, and
• 15:12
  Speaker 8: that's a problem.
• 15:22
  Speaker 9: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Tryaig
• 15:25
  Speaker 9: through its pro bono program. Greenberg Traig leverages its more
• 15:29
  Speaker 9: than twenty four hundred lawyers across forty two offices to
• 15:32
  Speaker 9: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal
• 15:35
  Speaker 9: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice,
• 15:38
  Speaker 9: Greenberg Triwerg attorneys have exonerated and freeomand in Philadelphia represent
• 15:42
  Speaker 9: numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as
• 15:46
  Speaker 9: juveniles and resentencing hearings, and receive the American Bar Association's
• 15:50
  Speaker 9: twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation
• 15:53
  Speaker 9: for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is
• 15:57
  Speaker 9: reimagining what big law can be as a more just
• 16:00
  Speaker 9: world only happens by design.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: So, while let's talk about some of the players in
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: the case, can you tell me about the police investigating
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: the crime.
• 16:16
  Speaker 6: Let's start with David Baker, who was the detective who
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: took the key statement in this case, which was dear
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: jar Jones's statement, Chester's friend who was in the car.
• 16:26
  Speaker 6: So she signs a seven eight page, single space statement
• 16:30
  Speaker 6: extraordinarily detailed about the events of the night. I mean
• 16:35
  Speaker 6: with detail that you would not be able to provide
• 16:40
  Speaker 6: unless you were there minute to minute. So how does
• 16:44
  Speaker 6: that happen? How does David Baker get the statement? So
• 16:48
  Speaker 6: over the course of the night, the police are interviewing
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: numerous witnesses. There probably were eight, ten, twelve people who
• 16:56
  Speaker 6: were interviewed who are witnesses, including Chester. So they are
• 16:59
  Speaker 6: gathering lots and lots of details and lots and lots
• 17:02
  Speaker 6: of information. And throughout the night they're going into see
• 17:05
  Speaker 6: Deer just saying you know, you're gonna tell us what happened.
• 17:08
  Speaker 6: She's like, you know, she sticks to it. I'm not involved.
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: I don't know what happened. I couldn't tell you. And
• 17:14
  Speaker 6: eventually they they get her to relent. They threaten to
• 17:19
  Speaker 6: take her children away, they threatened to charge her with
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: as a conspirator, that she's going to go to jail
• 17:24
  Speaker 6: for life. The straw that breaks, I think that breaks
• 17:27
  Speaker 6: the camel's back for her. She's not getting a lawyer,
• 17:30
  Speaker 6: is they walk in with Chester's statement, which of course
• 17:32
  Speaker 6: is completely exculpatory, and they say, oh, your boyfriend has confessed.
• 17:38
  Speaker 6: He's testified. I mean, he's going to jail. You're not
• 17:41
  Speaker 6: going to help us, We'll just charge you. He's already
• 17:43
  Speaker 6: admitted it, which of course he didn't. So she signs
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: the statement and that's how this David Baker gets the statement.
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: So he David Baker was instrumental in another exoneration that
• 17:55
  Speaker 6: happened roughly around the same time the case was a
• 18:00
  Speaker 6: little was a little later Anthony Wright. Obviously, Jimmy, you
• 18:04
  Speaker 6: know Anthony Ray. Anthony Ray was exonerated about a year
• 18:07
  Speaker 6: before Chester, same detective samem virtually very very similar situation.
• 18:15
  Speaker 6: But Jimmy, it's important to note that, I mean, this
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: is not exclusive to David Baker. I think what you
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: see in the exonerations that have occurred over the past
• 18:26
  Speaker 6: five years and even before is a pattern of this
• 18:30
  Speaker 6: sort of these sort of tactics that existed across the
• 18:33
  Speaker 6: homicide unit. David Baker was by no means the worst
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: of the detectives. I think. I think David Baker was
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: more of a sort of ordinary regular detective who just
• 18:45
  Speaker 6: followed the path that was before him.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: That's a really good point, Alan, because it's not just
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: one bad officer. We always talk about these bad apples,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: but what happens to an apple core when you have
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: one bad apple ruins the whole bunch. And what we're
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: talking about, it's a culture that encourages this behavior and
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: ultimately leads to innocent people like myself and Chesterholm and
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: having decades of their life destroyed behind bars for something
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: that we didn't do. And so now, Alan, I want
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: to talk about some of the witnesses. Tell me about
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: how the police built this case against Chester. But first
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: let's talk about Andre Dawkins. He ends up being a
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: pretty important to the state's case.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: Talk about that.
• 19:33
  Speaker 6: Andre Dawkins was a I believe at the time he
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: may have been homeless. He was sweeping up a parking
• 19:42
  Speaker 6: lot at a gas station down the block from where
• 19:45
  Speaker 6: the murder happened. And Andre Dawkins had a very tough life.
• 19:51
  Speaker 6: He had substance abuse issues, he had mental health issues.
• 19:54
  Speaker 6: He had many many arrests and conditions for petty thefts
• 19:59
  Speaker 6: and petty offenses. He had open cases at the time,
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: He had a bench warrant at the time, and the
• 20:04
  Speaker 6: police He's threatened to be incarcerated twelve different ways, and
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: basically they led him to identify Chester, make an idea
• 20:12
  Speaker 6: of Chester. But that was Andre Dawkins, and Andre Dawkins
• 20:15
  Speaker 6: recant his id years later. He was the first one
• 20:19
  Speaker 6: to recant. You know, we met him, I would say
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: about eight or ten years later, and he could not
• 20:26
  Speaker 6: have been more remorseful about doing what he did. It
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: was astonishing how much you remembered the lead detective, not
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: David Baker's. Another detective was now deceased. Knew where Andre
• 20:37
  Speaker 6: hung out. He's hung around in a certain part of
• 20:40
  Speaker 6: Center City, and Andre told me that for the entire
• 20:43
  Speaker 6: year or so between the arrest and the trial, this
• 20:47
  Speaker 6: detective would show up and give give him money every week.
• 20:51
  Speaker 6: All of this history, all of his history, was unavailable
• 20:55
  Speaker 6: to Chester's lawyer at the time. The prosecutor had it.
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: Roger King had it in the file and it could
• 21:01
  Speaker 6: have been used to impeach him, and Roger Kin kept
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: that he hit it, so the jury didn't get the
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: benefit of knowing about Andre's background and all the reasons
• 21:10
  Speaker 6: why he would not have been a credible witness.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: So Alan, you mentioned Roger King, I know him very well.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: So explain a little more about who Roger King was
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: and his reputation in Philadelphia at this time.
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: Roger King was a bit of a legend in Philadelphia,
• 21:30
  Speaker 6: a very sort of charismatic African American prosecutor. He came
• 21:36
  Speaker 6: from Alabama. His dad was a minister. He clearly was
• 21:40
  Speaker 6: raised with this. He learned the language of preaching. Let's
• 21:46
  Speaker 6: put it that way.
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: Yes, yes, he was very theatrical, very theatrical, and was
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: very very effective and deployed that in the courts in Philadelphia,
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: and you know, in a very cynical way.
• 22:00
  Speaker 6: The District Attorney's office would bring him out and assign
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: these cases where race was clearly you know, they would
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: they would never they would never say it, but obviously
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: they would deploy him in a in a very you
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: know where race was a question.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: I'll say exactly what it was for you, just for
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: the wrong for conviction listening audience, what Island has been
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: speaking to are the dirty tactics of the Philadelphia Police
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Department Homicide Division. Threatening a witness is not uncommon. They
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: did it in Chester case, they did it in Anthony
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Right case, they did it in Jimmy Dennis case. My
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: case right, and they would threaten the witness, tell them
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: they put him in jail, tell them they take away
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: their kids, so on and so forth. And then in
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: terms of Roger King, he would lie, he would cheat,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: he was still, he would pay witnesses. He was nothing
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: more than an evil man.
• 22:57
  Speaker 6: He was very He was a very a moral person
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: and a very amorl prosecutor. So prosecutor's duty is to
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: do justice, and for Roger King, doing justice was winning
• 23:07
  Speaker 6: at all costs. There was no review, There was no reconsideration,
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: There was no reflection should new evidence come up. In
• 23:16
  Speaker 6: Chester's case, we found hidden at evidence that he hit
• 23:19
  Speaker 6: that was hidden in his file that he didn't turn over,
• 23:24
  Speaker 6: and then and then after the trial when it was discovered,
• 23:28
  Speaker 6: tried to say this was that he wasn't aware of
• 23:30
  Speaker 6: it, it was accidental. It was in his file with time
• 23:33
  Speaker 6: stamps that showed he had this before trial.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Justice, speak to me about your charges. What were you
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: charged with? And then subsequently when they took you to
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: the county prison. Because I want people to understand and
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: know that it is something to be in prison, period,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: but it is a different animal when you are innocent.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Speak to that if you will.
• 23:55
  Speaker 7: I was more or less numb because I couldn't believe
• 23:58
  Speaker 7: that this was happening. You know what I'm saying. You
• 24:00
  Speaker 7: watch TV all the time.
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: You see all these different things on TV about these
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: police shows, and but you never see this. And I
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: asked one of the officers, I said, look, can I
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: use the phone? I said, I haven't got on the phone.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: I call my mom. Well when I called, you know,
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: I was so relieved to hear a voice the phone.
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: It's like it was only half a ring. And she'd
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: already pill up the phone. And uh, even before I
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: could say anything, she had already told me because it
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: was all over the news. I said, well, we're gonna
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: need a lawyer, and she said, we're already working on it.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: And I said, uh, we need the best lawyer. And uh,
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm crying back and forth, we both crying.
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: My mom, we crying. But at the same time, I'm
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: realizing I can't keep crying. Just you know, being here,
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: I knew that much. So, uh, she said, we're gonna
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: get a lawyer. Well, you know, we're gonna get you
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: out of there. So I'm believing that. And I didn't
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: know the uh you know what murder charges carried.
• 24:48
  Speaker 7: I ain't know.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: I was looking at life. I ain't none of that.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: I just knew it was. It was bad, and I
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: ended up going to d C. D C had no cells,
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: and they put me in this hallway and we were
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: just lying. There was this guy's lined up in this
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: hallway and I'm sleeping on the floor and you know,
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: I'm just looking around like.
• 25:06
  Speaker 7: This cannot be happening. I was there. I was only
• 25:08
  Speaker 7: in DC for I think it was two days.
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: And they told me, because I had a homicide and
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: it was a high profile homicide, that I was gonna
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: be moved to Holmesburg Prison and.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: That is the roughest county prison in Phila. Dulph is
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: the worst of the worst.
• 25:24
  Speaker 7: And I didn't know that at the time.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: And as soon as I walked on the block, I
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: saw my face on the TV and I see like
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: the whole block just got quiet, and everybody's looking back
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: at me, and I'm like, oh my god. So they
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: take me and they put me in the cell all
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: the way in the back, and they gave me a
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: single cell by myself, and then I was in the
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: cellf maybe ten minutes, and these old three old guys
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: came into the cell, you know, and open the gate.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: You know, I'm thinking, first thing in my mind is
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: they were about to attack me, you know, and you
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: know that's what I'm thinking. And it was three old
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: Muslim guys and they came in there and they just
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: basically told me. And we saw your situation on the TV,
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: he says, listening. He said, you're gonna be right. And
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: they gave me to run down to the block. They said, look,
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: mind your business. You know what I mean, respect one another.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying, don't look at nobody's sell.
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: That's and that's what I got. That that was my lesson.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: They gave you the layer of land and you you
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: were very fortunate to have those good Muslim brothers. Uh.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: I wish you knew their names so we could call
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: their names out. So when you get to trial, you know,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: now know that you are going to trial, how does
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: that make you feel?
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: So I was real hopeful, you know, I said, there's
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: no way a jury can find me, you'd sic because
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: the jury isn't corrupt like the police officers, and the
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: district turns up that these are people of my peers.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: So I held out a little bit more hope. Uh So,
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: you know, preparing for trial, you know, watching the whole
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: process unfold, and I'm listening to Roger King. I'm watching
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: all his movements and listening to his all his antics.
• 26:53
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: I said, man, this is gonna be a battle right here.
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: And I was just wondering, you know, if my attorney
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: at that time was time was up for it. I
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: just didn't, you know. I know, they came to me
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: with a deal, you know, offer me like the five
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: to ten. They were like, listen, just take the deal,
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: you know, and give up a shooter and you know
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: you got three years left and you'll be home.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Let me speak to that real quick though, because that's
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: another tactic. Every single one of us who had a
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: high profile case was offered a deal, and every single
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: one of us, Exonna Reeves in Philadelphia, said no. And
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: that's what you did. Chester.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Once again, this.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Speaks to his innocence, but it speaks strongly to his character.
• 27:44
  Speaker 6: So I'll just say this, the deal that was offered
• 27:47
  Speaker 6: was a phenomenal deal given the jeopardy that Chester faced.
• 27:52
  Speaker 6: Life without parole in Pennsylvania is life without parole. There's
• 27:55
  Speaker 6: no there's no loophole, there's no escape valve. I mean,
• 28:00
  Speaker 6: there are innocent people who would have taken that deal,
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: I can assure you, given the fear of facing life
• 28:07
  Speaker 6: in jail. So it's no small bit of bravery not
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: to take that. I'll just say that.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: And for me, that's why Chester is in my phone
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: as a champion. He's a brave guy. So that's no
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: small feat. Roger King presents the state's case. And they
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: have the victim's friend who was standing next to him
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: when the robbery and murder happened. They have Andre Dawkins,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: whom they were paying to lie for them, and they
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: have your friend Ddre who they threaten to get this statement. Alan.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about the defense and what did Chester lawyer
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: gerald Stein present.
• 28:51
  Speaker 6: So I thought Jerry did a good job, very good
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: job with what he had. He cross examined Andre Dawkins
• 28:58
  Speaker 6: very effectively. Again for what he had, he didn't have
• 29:01
  Speaker 6: all of his backgrounds.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Chester. Were you when you were sitting there in that
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: courtroom and you had all these lies being bandied about
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: about you? How did you feel that your attorney had
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: done for you and his representation of you?
• 29:18
  Speaker 7: Looking back?
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, and going back to that moment,
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: you know, it's all new to me, Jimmy, you know
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: what I'm saying, it's all new. So I'm watching it
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: as it unfolds, and I'm hearing it. I'm knowing these
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: are lies, and you know, at this point, I'm just
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: like it was a fifty to fifty like Alan said,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: you know, I think he did the best of what
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: he could, you know, with what he had. But the
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: thing for me and gerald Stein where we differ was
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: that I wanted to testify, and I was very adamant
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: on testifying, but gerald Stein had told me that I
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: wasn't going to testify, and he told me that he
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: was going to relinquish hisself from the case if I testified.
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: So my mom and my grandmother, you know, they were
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: so trusting of you know, the attorney who we don't know.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: But I said, okay, I said, you know, I said,
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna trust this. I said okay.
• 30:08
  Speaker 7: And I didn't end up testifying.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: You would literally put in a no win situation because
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: here it is, the decision was yours, because it's your life,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: your life.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: He said that Roger King will tell your part. He
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: did say that but my whole, my whole mindset was
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: always from the very beginning, was I have nothing to hide, man,
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: I have nothing to hide.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: And you just want the jury and everyone in courtroom
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: to know the truth. I get it, I totally get it.
• 30:37
  Speaker 6: I was gonna say, Jimmy, I was just gonna say,
• 30:39
  Speaker 6: like the conventional wisdom, and this is, you know, what
• 30:42
  Speaker 6: you learned coming up is it's better not to testify.
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: Once you exercise your right to testify, in some large way,
• 30:50
  Speaker 6: the case becomes a referendum on your testimony. It's generally
• 30:54
  Speaker 6: perceived to be a very risky move. One bad answer
• 30:57
  Speaker 6: or you get into a bad little line of question
• 31:00
  Speaker 6: and you may have a strong case, but you could
• 31:02
  Speaker 6: lose jurors because now they think you're not being honest
• 31:06
  Speaker 6: or you don't have a good answer for one thing.
• 31:08
  Speaker 6: There's a lot of people doing a lot of time
• 31:10
  Speaker 6: because they chose to exercise their right to testify.
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: Like I just felt like all these negative things have
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: been said about me that you know, and I haven't
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: had an opportunity to say anything. This was my one opportunity,
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: and I was willing to take the chance. I said,
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: they gave me the.
• 31:26
  Speaker 7: Death penalty in life whatever, I didn't care. I said,
• 31:29
  Speaker 7: you know, I want to be at sing and fight
• 31:31
  Speaker 7: for myself. Even after we found guilty, I didn't never
• 31:34
  Speaker 7: got to speak till after I got out of prison.
• 31:37
  Speaker 7: This is twenty eight years later, So twenty eight years
• 31:39
  Speaker 7: of silence.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: We all on wrong for conviction. Wanted to have you
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: on here was to give you a voice that you
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: hadn't had for so many years. And so we are
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: immensely glad that you and island that showed up to death.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Tell me about when you were finally when you would
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: convict at Trialchester and uh was your family in the courtroom,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: How did everybody feel? And what happened that day when
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: the jury came back with their verdict.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: Man, that was ah, yeah, that was that was That
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: was uh, you know, I think the roughest day of
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: my life. Actually, uh, my fate of my my future
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: was right here in these people's hands. And you know,
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: listening to Roger King make his his final argument and
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: you know, my attorney and I was just like, you know,
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: this can go either way, you know, cause I'm sitting
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: here and knowing I'm innocent, but at the same time
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: I'm listening to Roger King, and I'm like, you know,
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: he got me questioning myself, you know, because his his
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: his his closing argument was just ridiculous, you know what
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: I'm saying.
• 32:46
  Speaker 7: I'm just like, did I do it? You know, because
• 32:49
  Speaker 7: it was just that compelling.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I very well know that he came and pulled out
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: all the stops and probably even told the jury and
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: everyone in the courtroom that it was a society's right
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: to convict you that if they didn't, they were basically
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: letting a criminal back on the streets. Because that's what
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: he has did in every single closing argument, tried to
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: get the public to take up arms for justice and
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: convict an innocent person.
• 33:20
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: So, after after after conclusion of all that, you know, uh,
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: you know, I looked at East juror and.
• 33:25
  Speaker 7: The jury foreman.
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: He looked at me and he winked, you know, and
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: gave me like a you know, heads like a head nod,
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: and I'm like, okay, maybe maybe they do believe, you know,
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: And they went out, and uh, I think it was
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: maybe like a day and a half. When they came
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: back in, no one looked at me.
• 33:43
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: It wasn't the same as when they went out. So
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: my heart immediately fell, you know, into my stomach, and
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: I'm just like, this is not gonna be good.
• 33:52
  Speaker 7: But I still was holding on this a little bit
• 33:54
  Speaker 7: of hope.
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: So the judge you know, read off his spell and
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: then uh, you know, he asked for a verdict and
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: they came back and they read a first degree and
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: it was it was not guilty.
• 34:05
  Speaker 7: So I was excited. I'm like, okay, all right, maybe
• 34:07
  Speaker 7: this is you know, I'm like okay. I had hope.
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: Then when they said second degree and they said.
• 34:15
  Speaker 7: So hm hm now they said they said guilty, and
• 34:25
  Speaker 7: you know, I was just like, you know how, how
• 34:30
  Speaker 7: you know how? And then they read off the other
• 34:32
  Speaker 7: charges murdering. You know, I just I didn't understand. And
• 34:37
  Speaker 7: I turned around. I looked at my mother, and my
• 34:40
  Speaker 7: mother's face was just like I can still see it
• 34:43
  Speaker 7: so clear. I mean, she was just like she was devastated.
• 34:46
  Speaker 7: You know. My father he was just sitting there, you know,
• 34:49
  Speaker 7: but my mom's face as well.
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: I'll never forget. So after that, I just did I
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: heard nothing else. I remember my knees buckled a little
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: bit and I fell down a little bit, and and
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: they asked me if I had anything to say, and
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: I told her judge, they got it wrong. I said,
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: you know, this is this is wrong. That said, you know,
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: I said, I've never lied, you know about my innocence,
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: you know, and I read it all down and you
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: know he had but he never even didn't hear nothing.
• 35:18
  Speaker 7: I said. That was a rap.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: I guarantee.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: I listen to audience.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: If you go and look at everybody trial transcripts who's
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: been on wrong for conviction, you will see that when
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: they sentenced us, that we stood before that judge and
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: we sat once again, you're getting it wrong. We're innocent,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: we didn't do it, we don't belong here, so and
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: so forth. Talk to me Chester about your after all
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: the years go by, what was your lowest point being
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: incarcerated upstate? And then we'll get to what your highest
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: point was. But I want the audience to know what
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: was your lowest point in prison for something you didn't do.
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: There were many low low points. I think the entire
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: twenty eight year was a low point. But I think
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: my lowest point was, uh, I was losing my mom,
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: you know, because she had been my strongest advocate, my
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: my biggest supporter, and she was like everything everything to me.
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: And when you lose a loved one, it's it's gonna
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: be tough, really in prison or not. But being in prison,
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: you know, it's I think it's even harder because, like
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: I said, you know, this is the one person I
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: would I would get anything for my life, you know,
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: and did everything for me. And to go back into
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: that block and not be able to cry and shed
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: a tear and show this weakness, you know, it was
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: it was it.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Was hard, right, you can't do that in prison, right,
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: you couldn't even grieve.
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: My mom had always told me, you know, I talked
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: my mom every day. If there's a way to will
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: there was a way to go.
• 37:03
  Speaker 7: On that phone.
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: I got on the phone and I called her every
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: day and she always told me every day at the
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: end of the phone called do not lose yourself. And
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: she told me that every single phone call, do not
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: lose yourself. And uh, you know, and then begin I
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: didn't know that you know what that meant. But as
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: time went on, I said, okay, just be the man
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: and I raised you to be, and uh, you know
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: that's all I tried to do. Man, you know, I said,
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: these people have smeared my name. They've taken my freedom.
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: I said, you know, I'm going to show them that
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: they're wrong, you know. So I just tried to move
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: by my actions and carry myself in a way that
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: would speak louder than my voice could speak.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Did you take any classes? Did you did you immerse
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: yourself in the law? Did you did you have any
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: hobbies to make the time go by while you were
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: fighting to prove your innocence?
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: You know, I definitely immersed myself into the law. I
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: read a lot of books, did a lot of working out.
• 38:00
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: Matter of fact, I worked out more and probably than
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: than I did eating. I was I was actually the
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: strongest guy in the prison.
• 38:06
  Speaker 6: You know.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: I had broken so many different records you just trying
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: to take because I was that anger was being directed
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: towards these weights. So I was benching like four fifty
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: five and it's crazy, you know, but what do you
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: mention that?
• 38:19
  Speaker 6: What do you mention now?
• 38:21
  Speaker 7: Maybe one thirty five? You know.
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, But it was all about just trying to stay
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: you know, stay sharp the mind and physically. You know,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: I said, this is going to be a long fight,
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: so I wanted to, you know, keep my wits about
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: me and my physical health. So I did everything I
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: could to keep both sharp.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: So kind of summarize what happened in these twenty five years,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: you know, because there were pills based on recantations by
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Deirdre Jones and Andre Dawkins, and all of those are
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: pills were denied. So I know that it had to
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: be such a deabilitating process for you and were looking bleak,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: but you were holding on to hope. Tell me about
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: when you knew that the ebbs of life were turning
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: in your favor. Talk to me a little bit about that,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: chester about when things start to turn in your favor.
• 39:14
  Speaker 7: I'm gon say, maybe my twenty fourth my twenty fifth year,
• 39:17
  Speaker 7: maybe things I think started to you know, there's more talk,
• 39:20
  Speaker 7: and I think my case was on the front page
• 39:22
  Speaker 7: of the Daily News and all the staff had it
• 39:26
  Speaker 7: and inmates had it, and I'm like, maybe there's you know,
• 39:29
  Speaker 7: maybe things are starting to move.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: And so this is right around the time when Larry
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Krasner gets elected. This was a huge day for people
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: in Philadelphia because we had never had a district attorney
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: speak loudly and clearly about innocent people being in prison
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: and trying to right those wrongs. And one of the
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: most important things he did was he hired Patricia Cummins
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: to have the conviction integrity. She becomes his number one. So, Alan,
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: tell me about when that process took place, in the
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: petition that you wrote and got in front of Patricia Cummins,
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: and how all that came to be.
• 40:14
  Speaker 6: I had our petition drawn up, she comes in. I
• 40:17
  Speaker 6: think I walked over there and handed it to her
• 40:19
  Speaker 6: the day after she started. So she called me about
• 40:22
  Speaker 6: two weeks later and said, you know, I read your letter.
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: We're very interested in this case. We're definitely going to
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: take this up, and I've ordered the homicide file for
• 40:30
  Speaker 6: you to review, which that came in about a month later.
• 40:33
  Speaker 6: And then we found that other evidence in the homicide file.
• 40:36
  Speaker 6: I opened the file and what was, without a question,
• 40:40
  Speaker 6: like the Perry Mason moment of my life. I pull
• 40:42
  Speaker 6: a folder out. The first thing is pull this folder out.
• 40:45
  Speaker 6: It's a memo from a police officer who manned the
• 40:48
  Speaker 6: tip line the night of the crime. They received an
• 40:53
  Speaker 6: anonymous tip essentially identifying Denise Combs as the driver of
• 40:58
  Speaker 6: the getaway cars. I said in the beginning, there were
• 41:01
  Speaker 6: three rented Chevy Blazers with the same tag roughly the
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: same tag, but Denise in rent was the name on
• 41:07
  Speaker 6: the rental agreement for the one of the other vehicles.
• 41:10
  Speaker 6: And you know, we believed she was involved. We spent
• 41:14
  Speaker 6: a long time looking for her. Not that it was
• 41:17
  Speaker 6: not that easy to find her, believe it or not.
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: But when we did, she was very welcoming and we
• 41:22
  Speaker 6: spoke to her many on numerous occasions. I mean, she
• 41:26
  Speaker 6: never admitted involvement in the case, but she said a
• 41:28
  Speaker 6: lot of things that were kind of astonishing. Actually, in
• 41:32
  Speaker 6: one of the interviews, she said, I once out of
• 41:34
  Speaker 6: thirty eight we had to get rid of because there
• 41:37
  Speaker 6: was a quote unquote body on it, and of course
• 41:40
  Speaker 6: thirty eight was used in this case. That was the
• 41:44
  Speaker 6: gun used in this case. And she says this to us,
• 41:47
  Speaker 6: and that memo with the information the anonymous tip identifying
• 41:53
  Speaker 6: her gets buried in the homicide file never turned over.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: So Alan, bring me to the day when you know
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: that Chester is going to be released. Tell me how
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: you felt, Tell me how his family felt. Tell me
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: were you able to reach out to Chester and let
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: him know that she was coming to get.
• 42:10
  Speaker 6: We go to this hearing the judge ordered this hearing.
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: We didn't know she was going to release Chester that day.
• 42:15
  Speaker 6: We just thought she had some questions. And she asked
• 42:18
  Speaker 6: us a handful of question, says well, I want to
• 42:20
  Speaker 6: release him today.
• 42:21
  Speaker 7: Can you give me an order?
• 42:22
  Speaker 6: And Patricia comings, you know, the DA and I look
• 42:25
  Speaker 6: at each other like yeah. We sit down and we
• 42:27
  Speaker 6: write a hand rated order, you know, give it to
• 42:29
  Speaker 6: the judge and she signs it and faxes it up
• 42:33
  Speaker 6: to the prison. And then it was like we all
• 42:35
  Speaker 6: jump in our cars. I called Chester's family. We all
• 42:39
  Speaker 6: jump in our cars and we're like, you know, it
• 42:41
  Speaker 6: was like the amazing race we're trying to get who's
• 42:44
  Speaker 6: going to get to the prison first.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: You know, that's an incredible story, that's an incredible moment
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: for you as an attorney, and I just want to
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: say thank you for being a vessel that helped reunite
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Chester with his family. What you did was no, no
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: short of being heroic. Chester, How did you feel about that?
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: When Alan is telling you, even before you got released,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: how did you feel about that?
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: It wasn't really until I got across that bridge that
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: you know, my shoulders straightened up a little bit, because
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: you know, as you already know, Jimmy, you know what
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: I mean. I'm twenty eight years in and you know,
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: I hear the talk and I hear all the rumblings,
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: but at the same time, it's like, I'm still here.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: You know that that morning when they called me back
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: to the block and uh, the counselor called me upstairs,
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: she says, I need you to pack your stuff. You're
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: gonna be going home tomorrow morning.
• 43:36
  Speaker 7: You know. I thought she's playing.
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: So I get over there and she says, uh, uh
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: the judge is called and uh, they're releasing you today.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: So I'm just like how, you know how, and she's like,
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: I don't know, but you're going home, you know. And
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: it's just like, you know, you don't you don't you
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: know your hope, but you don't, you know, you don't believe.
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: It's just you know what I mean. So it was
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: just everything. I'm just so surreal, you know. And before
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: I can get back to my cell, which is on
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: the other side of the block, the whole jail had
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: already already found out, and I had white shirts, captains, sergeants,
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: you know, everybody coming to myself congratulate me.
• 44:14
  Speaker 7: And I didn't have it. I didn't have an opportunity
• 44:15
  Speaker 7: to really process it, you know. So now the captain
• 44:19
  Speaker 7: of security, he's telling me you have to get outside,
• 44:21
  Speaker 7: you have to get out to the prison because now
• 44:23
  Speaker 7: you're considered a civilian. I'm like, cat, I just been
• 44:25
  Speaker 7: here twenty five years. Now you tell me I got
• 44:27
  Speaker 7: to go. He's yeah, you got twenty minutes. So they
• 44:29
  Speaker 7: gave me twenty minutes to prepare myself to leave a
• 44:33
  Speaker 7: place where I've just spent majority of my life. I
• 44:37
  Speaker 7: just couldn't believe it. And then I get outside.
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: And my sister and my father and my uncle right
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: there in the lobby, and it was just like you know,
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: and I still couldn't believe it, you know, I said, man,
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 44:48
  Speaker 7: And when we.
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: Finally got across the bridge and I got out the car,
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: and I looked back at the prison, and that's when
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: it hit me, like, you know, finally, you know, like
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: you know, and what've so much about being and free
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: just about I mean, that's the main thing. But them
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: finally hearing my voice and believe in me, you know.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: Right your dad, truth came out. I can tell you
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: first hand. When you are in prison, all you want
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: is for someone, anyone to see who you truly are
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: as a human being, because you don't belong it. Chester.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Tell me about your life now, and I hear you
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: have an incredible friend that piles around which you tell
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: me about that a little bit.
• 45:32
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I was. I was.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: I was very fortunate, you know. Prior to being released,
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: I worked in activities department at retreat and they had
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: a dog program where they were we would get dogs
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: from Lazerne County SPCA and they would bring dogs in
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: inmates to train and we had a six month old puppy.
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: It was a puggle, very tiny, very tiny. Like I said,
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: I watched this dog for for months, you know what
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: I mean, time she was there and uh, you know,
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: once things started pregnant about my case, the activities managers
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: Todd Quebeca, he was actually in charge of the dog
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: program anyway. He says, if things ever work out for you,
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: I want you to take one of these dogs. I
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: think you should take Buttons. The dog's name was Buttons
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: at the time. So I was like, nah, I said,
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: if I get out, the last thing I want to
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: do is take care of a dog. You know, I'm
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: you know, that's the last thing I'm trying to do
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: so you know. Uh that that day came and I
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: found I was leaving. I was like, he said, you
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: need to take this dog. And I was like all right,
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: And I came brought her home and we renamed her,
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: uh Journey, and uh, she's upstairs right now, and I
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: and I got and I gotta say this, man, you know,
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: you know, God does things.
• 46:43
  Speaker 7: You know, just it's just it's just the way things happen.
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: Man, It's just you know, this dog really, like I think,
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: saved my life because it's been rough out here, you
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: know for me, and you know, so you know, just
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: having her and knowing what we came through and we'll
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: be you know, where we're at now.
• 46:57
  Speaker 7: It's just been a you.
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: Know, saving grace for me. And as far as where
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: I'm at now, you know, you know, the main people
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: know about the settlement. You know that was that occurred.
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: You know, that brought on a whole nother layer to
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: my life. A lot of difficulties with that because like
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: they say, more money brings more problems and uh, and
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: that is the truest statement I think I've ever heard
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: in my life. I'm not complaining about my life because
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: you know, like I said, where we came through and
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: we had to overcome to where we are now. You know,
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: I just I take it all in stride and I'm
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: grateful for it all. But at the same time, man,
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: it's it ain't as easy as people may think, you know,
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: going through all that, and then they think because they
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: give you the money that life is good now, and uh,
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: you know, you know, it's just it's a lot to process.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: You and I, you know, uh talk about these things often,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: and I know you have a great deal of wisdom.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: I want to know what you think I were wrong
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: for conviction audience can do to help people like us
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: and stop this from happening to other people.
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: Well, and only the first thing that comes to mind
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: is getting out to vote. You know, these politicians that
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: are you know, that have been there in these uh
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: uh forever with these old school mentality uh, you know,
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: people who don't believe in justice. I mean, I don't understand,
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: you know, I have a hard time understanding how you
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: know people are so hard on line Christ. No one's perfect.
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: We know that already, you know, but you know, just
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: seeing a few of the things that he's done in
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: terms of trying to right the wrongs. You know, you
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: know innocence product. You know it's one thing you know
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: to get involved with innocince product. But there's only so
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: much we can do there.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: And Alan, do you have anything to add.
• 48:36
  Speaker 6: I'll say the same thing Chester just said. Vote and
• 48:39
  Speaker 6: I'll tell you we did everything. We got recantations, I
• 48:42
  Speaker 6: got news stories, we found the other witness. I found everything.
• 48:46
  Speaker 6: Did you know what made a difference? Larry Krasner got
• 48:49
  Speaker 6: elected and was willing to look at the evidence in
• 48:51
  Speaker 6: a different way. Politics is what made the difference, Jimmy,
• 48:55
  Speaker 6: you and Chester are free because of politics and the
• 48:58
  Speaker 6: old way of looking at things doing things. The old
• 49:01
  Speaker 6: way of running a DA's or prosecutor's office was not
• 49:04
  Speaker 6: going to ever change any of this. The only way
• 49:08
  Speaker 6: things are going to change is to is the is
• 49:11
  Speaker 6: the support and promotion of progressive prosecution. Period.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: So, Chester, we have something on wrongful conviction called closing arguments.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to hand this mic off to you,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: and I want you to speak from your heart and
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: tell a wrongful conviction audience how you feel and what
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: you think.
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, if I say anything, I was just like,
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: it's just about bringing awareness to uh wrongful convictions. You know,
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: prior to you know, me entering prison.
• 49:39
  Speaker 7: And and and and.
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: Seeing it firsthand, you know, I never would have thought
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: these things are possible. You know, you look on TV
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: and see people being arrested, and you know, they paint
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: this picture of guilt before innocence. And you know, I
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: just want people to be aware that before we jump
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: to conclusions and and you know, just to listen and
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: to the facts and and learn more about these types
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: of things. You know, in regards to the law itself,
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: these people have committed crimes, you know, these people that
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: allow these things to happen. Holding people accountable. To me,
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: it's more than anything. And these police officers that stole
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: my life, your life, just just make it, I say,
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: bringing awareness to these types of things. And you know,
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: I thank you guys for having me and Allen here today.
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: Thank you Jimmy. You know, you know I got a
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: lot of love for you. You know, whatever I can
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: do to help you, man, I'm always gonna be there
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: for you as well, you know, So I just thank you'
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: all for having.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: Us, thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: guest host, Jimmy Dennis. I like to thank our executive
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: producers Jason Flumm and Kevin Waters. The senior producer for
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: this episode is Jackie Pauley and our producers are Lilah
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Robinson and Jeff Clydborne edit is Roxandra Guidy. The music
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: On all three.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Platforms, you can find me on Facebook as Jimmy Dennis
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: on Instagram at Jimmy Dennis Music. I'm also an R
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: and B singer songwriter and you can find all my
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: music on iTunes.
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: Or wherever you get your music.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: in association with Signal Company Number one.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrong Conviction,
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize winning author Gilbert King will interview Robert Dubois
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: about being sentenced to die by electrocution for a crime
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: he didn't commit. Gilbert is the host of Lava for
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Good's newest documentary podcast, Bone Valley, which follows the story
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: of Leo Schofield, a man wrongfully convicted for the murder
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: of his wife near Tampa, Florida. Leo is currently incarcerated
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: at Florida State Prison, the same prison where Robert Dua
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: was held for twenty eight long years. In this fascinating interview,
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Gilbert will talk to Robert about the shoddy police work
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: and junk science that landed Robert on death row. Listen
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed