Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller Docu: How to Avoid Getting Murdered by Your Husband

Transcript

Killer Thriller Docu: How to Avoid Getting Murdered by Your Husband · Legally Brunette

• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. Today, we are
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: looking at a case that raises heartbreaking questions about domestic violence,
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: warning signs, and whether a tragedy could have been prevented.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: So it's January 2023, and Tasha Haight, her five children,
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: and her mother, Gail Earl, were all found dead in
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: their Utah home. And the person responsible was Tasha's husband,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Michael Haight, who also died by suicide. So in the
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: weeks leading up to these killings, Tasha had filed for
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: divorce and she had concerns about abuse that had brought
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: child welfare officials into the family lives. So now there
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: is a new investigation discovery special, Toxic, What Happened in
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: the Hate House? And it examines the events that led
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: up to that morning and the warning signs that may
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: have been missed and the questions that remain about whether
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: anyone could have intervened. So guys, we are talking to
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Elizabeth Chambers. who hosts the two-hour investigation. Elizabeth, hello, and
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for being here.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Jennifer. Thank you so much.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: And thank you for shedding light on this very important case.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we are very, very excited to talk to you,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: talk about the hate case, but also because we know
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: that you have really dedicated yourself to this cause. And
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: maybe you could just give us, tell our listeners a
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: little bit about your mission right now. And I know, obviously,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: this is specific to the hate case, but there's a
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: bigger picture for you here.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: There is a bigger picture.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: And I think it's always goes beyond the headlines, right?
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: A headline loves to get our attention.
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: It's clickbait. It says a man snapped, which.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: Feels really good for us because it doesn't feel like
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: that can happen to us. Like, I think people want
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: to feel comforted, right? When they watch true crime or
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: when they consume it, they're like, oh, okay, I'm learning this.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: So it doesn't happen to me. Like there's just psychologically
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: a part of us that does that. And I the
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: thing that was really attractive about the hate case and
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: not attractive, but compelling was that this was actually just
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: the final act in a very long history of domestic violence.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: And not only with Michael hate, but with his father
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: and his grandfather and his great grandfather. And so looking
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: at those statistics and diving deep into a case, you know,
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: and I love our show for so many reasons, but
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: it's not a cold case. These are, this is recent. And, um,
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: And these themes are urgent and relevant. This was domestic
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: violence that went unaddressed appropriately.
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: I mean, it was addressed, but this was the final act.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: And so really shedding light on the fact that a
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: family annihilation and this level of familicide is not necessarily,
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: you know, rare if you look at the statistics, unfortunately.
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: And then what's behind it? So, you know, that's really
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: why this case spoke to me.
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: And nobody had spoken ever to the friends, the family,
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: the communities, very close knit. And we were just extremely fortunate.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: Our team has been doing this for several, several years.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: And we were able to really just get to know
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: the community and be able to tell the story in
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: a very authentic, deep way that goes far beyond the headlines. Yeah. Yeah.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I have to tell you, I was very drawn in
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: by Tasha's friends. And I thought that was such, it just,
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I wasn't, it's funny because I knew the story, but
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: for whatever reason, when I was watching the documentary, I
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: was surprised by how much murder there was, how much death.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: And I don't know why. I think I was so
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: caught up.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: And hearing about Tasha and the way the story was
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: told and connecting, feeling connected to these really lovely women
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: who also have now been through so much in terms
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: of the loss of their friend and the entire family,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: this neighborhood family. So listen, we have a true crime doc.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: So we are fascinated with true crime here, but the
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: true crime watching these documentaries, the ones that I like
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: best usually have me feeling something or feeling like I'm
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: connecting with the people around the story. And I think
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: you guys, I have to say, did such a great
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: job of that. Was it hard to get Tasha's friends
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: on board? I know that, I don't know if they
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: are also in the Mormon community, but, and what obstacles
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: you might've had in terms of that, getting, you know,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: people to talk about what had happened.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Sure. I mean, nobody wants to allow someone into your
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: inner circle, not knowing how they're going to tell your story.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: And We see that with the Yardley Love Special that
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: airs tonight on IED. Yardley was a lacrosse player who
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: was my sister's good friend and teammate. And even that,
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: knowing that I knew Yardley. And so even telling that story,
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: people don't want to rock the boat. People don't want
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: to point fingers. And people don't want, honestly, to open
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: up old wounds, if I'm going to be honest. It's
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: just so complex, really, to have an entire community share with.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: You and be vulnerable.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: And it's a privilege that's earned and it's not something
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: you can force. And they were, they of course, understandably
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: were reluctant. They didn't want us to paint the church
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: in a certain light, which by the way, I have
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: nothing but wonderful things to say about the community and
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: their absolute appreciation and stress on mental health. I mean,
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: after this happened, the community all came together and they
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: did EMDR together because they had all I mean, therapy
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: is just such a huge part of that community.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: I learned so much during the process.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: Ultimately, that it does take a village.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: And I've never seen– I'm born in Texas, and I
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: feel like I grew up in a tight-knit community. But
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: I have never seen anything like this community, this family,
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: the friends. I mean, they all help raise each other's children.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: They go to church in the same neighborhood. They go
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: to the same schools. It's such a beautiful place. thing
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: to see and to witness and to experience firsthand. I
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: have nothing but I was blown away. But that's also
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: what rocked it so hard, right? These women who these
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: incredible women who are like, maybe all have friends like
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: Tasha had, they helped raise these children, and they were
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: there to protect them. And it just goes to show
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: that no matter how much you have in place, when
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: a perpetrator is this abusive, there's really stopping them takes
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: a lot more education than they had.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: I feel like I got a really, really good education
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: watching the documentary. I feel like it was, you didn't
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: just tell a story, but you sort of laid out,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: you know, a plan, which I think is so great.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: So anyone watching, you know, there are, there are things
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: that happened before the murder, before, you know, this mass murder,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: there were all of these, all of these signs. And
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know that, Tasha could have even conceived how
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: this would have ended up.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: But, and I think that was also part of it
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: that I found fascinating. I didn't, it went from Michael
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: being so scary and controlling and abusive, but the fact
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: that he took the gun and killed all of his
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: children and Tasha's mother, for me, that felt like a
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: big jump. And maybe it really wasn't. That was what
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: I learned also, right? Like, it feels like from, listen,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: he was abusive to his kids. He was abusive to Tasha,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: no doubt. But taking out a gun and killing all
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: of them in cold blood, still, I mean, so the
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: warning signs, and then sort of figuring out the warning
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: signs were there. You guys have, literally, there's a checklist.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: And to be able to say, this could be coming, right?
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: If there are four more, if you hit four more
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: of these marks, You are this much more likely to
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: be the victim of murder, which is so crazy.
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: It is. And that's why the lethality assessment, I mean,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: other than the takeaway that we see the headlines, but
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: what was happening for so long leading up to this,
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: the lethality assessment is my biggest takeaway and what an
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: amazing community is.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: The lethality assessment is.
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: The one thing that we can take from this horrific,
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: unthinkable tragedy and find.
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: A way to help other people.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: I believe every 15-year-old, if you are dating, the lethality
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: assessment should be part of your vernacular, period, end of story.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: You know, we go to the doctor, we go to
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: the dentist. Why are we doing all these checkups even
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: when we're not sick? But we're not doing that with
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: our relationships. The lethality assessment to me is everything.
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: It's black and white.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: If you're answering honestly, you can see if you're in
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: a healthy relationship.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: It's there. It tells you, you know?
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: Wow. Mm-hmm. And so I wish everyone knew about this.
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: I want everyone to know about it. Like I will
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: not die happy until.
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: Everyone knows what a lethality assessment is.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Well, let's say that.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Someone checks off, you know, there are two, you have
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: two check marks and not four.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Where do you go with that?
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: Well, then you're, you're eyes wide open. You're like, and
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: one thing about domestic violence is it never gets better.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: And I hate to say that I could not have
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: told you this four years ago, I've personally not been
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: a victim of domestic violence. My passion for this came
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: from betrayal and making sure that my kids were okay,
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: just in terms of like repeating familial patterns. But one
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: thing I have learned is that domestic violence never gets better.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: And people will say, oh, he's going to change or
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: this is going to, it doesn't, it doesn't. So I think, okay,
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: I checked two on this list.
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: Now I'm aware, right?
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: Now it's wide, eyes wide open to see if three
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: presents itself because abusers don't come out all in. Like
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: that's what makes it so complex and complicated, right? It's
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: like if you open a door 10 times and someone hugs.
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: You every time, punches you every time, you're like, I'm out.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: If they hug you five times and punch you five times,
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: it kind of keeps you coming back for more. And
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: that's why Toxic, our show, is so prolific because it
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: is a matter of the heart. And matters of the
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: heart can be overridden by our gut and our mind.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: You know, it's not that easy.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: I know it's complicated.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: And yeah, they had all these kids together and the
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: community and everything.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Built this life together.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: It is. It's complicated, but I guess it can't be
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: that complicated in terms of preventing these types of tragedies.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: It has to maybe be more black and white. You know,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: when you were piecing everything together, what were the first
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: signs that you saw, like the first sort of things
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: that you saw out of Michael that had your bells ringing,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: that you were like, oh, you know, you knew the story,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: but I'm saying in your reporting of it.
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, sure.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: It was, well, first and foremost, it was his father,
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: his father's suicide and really taking things that had happened
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: and blaming everyone else.
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: It's a lack of accountability, right?
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: And we learned that with narcissists and narcissism is.
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: Really thrown around So freely.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: I think during COVID, we learned a lot of language
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: to help us deal with relationships, but sometimes those are overused.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: And during this investigation, I learned so much about the
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: different types of narcissism and how they present themselves. So Michael,
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: for example, was a covert narcissist. He loved everyone in
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: the community to see him as a beacon, right?
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: To see him as a helpful person.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: But behind closed doors, he was awful to his family.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: And I think we all kind of know those people.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, since doing this story, I'm like looking around
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: a little bit in my friend circles and identifying some
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: people with those behaviors.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I definitely have been easy prey to
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: narcissists my whole life. And I've learned so much about narcissism.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting the different types. I mean, I don't
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: know if Michael could have been also categorized as a
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: malignant narcissist.
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: Sure, sure.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: But something that I feel like does bind narcissists together
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: is this lack of empathy.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: This real lack, right, of feeling for the other person.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, you could feel that in him.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: But he also was clever. I felt like Michael did
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: a good job of when it was going to serve him,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: pretending that he was taking accountability, right? And even recording
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: himself doing that.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: Right. But, yeah. Yeah.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: That was such an interesting piece. It's like he left
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: this all on his phone, knowing that he was killing himself.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: And it was like almost a delusion of thinking this
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: is going to prove my point. That in the suicide note,
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: tell us everything we need to know about the lack
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: of accountability with Michael. Right.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: And that he cared so much that even after ending
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: the lives of his family and himself, he still cared.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: was worried about what people were going to think of him.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: Of course. And then look at the obituary that his
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: mother wrote. Plus she's still alive.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: And that was one of the challenges we had in
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: the community is that she, you know, is a wonderful
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: person in the community by all intents and purposes, but
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: like nobody really wanted to rock that boat and look
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: at that. And I look at that in men in
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: general is like, if their moms can write that about them,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: what is happening under the surface?
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And, So it's all.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: So complex, but it's never been more poignant and never
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: been more important with the Cornell 7 and everything that's
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: happening now to look at these patterns and how are
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: we raising these boys, hopefully men? What are we looking
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: at in our own patterns? Like Jennifer just said, I
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: attract narcissists.
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: What is that?
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: What is their relationship with their mom? I mean, this
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: is why It can't just be a headline. There's so
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: much more here, and it's almost an epidemic.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: And again, when you were telling the story, right, the
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: parts where you were like, ding, ding, ding. Tell me
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: a couple of those instances where you were like, oh,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: this is textbook, what Michael's doing right now. Sure.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I think the presentation at church every Sunday,
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: the presentation to the Um, the fact that Tasha couldn't
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: have a conversation within her home because she thought everything
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: was bugged. Uh, he took everyone's devices. Every iCloud went
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: to him. She couldn't have a normal text conversation. Um,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: and again, that goes back to the different forms.
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: Of abuse, right?
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: There's emotional, there's physical, there's control, all this control, coercion, isolation, like, and,
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: and She really, really tried to make it work. And
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember, but they were separated
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: for a moment and then they went back and tried.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: To make it work with another child, with their fifth child, Gavin.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: And I think that's really, really tricky when you already
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: know it's bad.
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: Yes, there's so much. There's so much there, right?
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: And just the fact that he really wanted everything to
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: be picture perfect.
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: The food on the table when you come home.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, and he was, the thing is, guys, listeners, I
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: don't know. This is not necessarily their symptom of narcissism, right?
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: Because it's a symptom of a lot of things. But
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: the control thing, it was so frustrating to watch. And
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: even hearing that he wouldn't let her refurbish the wood table.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: He had all of this money. And most of our listeners,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I hope, have already seen the film. But the control
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: of it, the way that she couldn't, she had to
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: show him her grocery bills. Those were hell-tale signs to me. Again,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: not that it was going to end. What I found
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: so interesting is that the way that you all presented
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: the story, you were guiding us as viewers to see
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: these signs that would end in something lethal, right?
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: And there is a checklist. And I would have not ever.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Thought that those types of things could mean that at
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: the end of the story, there's going to be murder, right?
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: But like, to be that aware, I think is so
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: important and such a good message. So it might not
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: seem like such a big deal. Your partner won't let
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: you refurbish a table that the kids have destroyed. And
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: it's not like you're, you ask for much and you only,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: it puts you on a budget for Christmas of, you know,
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: a ridiculous budget.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: And it has to see all those, all those.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Things wouldn't necessarily tick off Unless they got violent, kick
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: off murder, and maybe they should. And maybe it's like
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: this could happen. These are signs of something lethal.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: If you're in a relationship, yes, take a lethality assessment.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: And then you're also aware of what is to come, right? Again,
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: going back to my point earlier, things don't ever get better.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: So say, oh, I've only picked up two or three
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: of these. But, like, I'm going to be aware if
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: he starts controlling or she or your partner starts controlling
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: your electronic devices. And the fact of the matter is
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: this lethality assessment is universal. I have friends who have
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: houses in the Hamptons, who have houses everywhere, whose husbands
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: are financially abusive. And I think it knows no bounds
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: in terms of socioeconomic status. It knows no bounds in
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: terms of background. This test is black and white. And
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: that's why it's so important. Because if you're answering honestly,
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: you know where you stand in terms of safety.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: I think it's, tell me a little bit about how
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: the test was formed, who formed the test. And I
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: know you talked about.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of it, to be honest. I need
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: to do some more research. So I've only learned about
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: it here. And then I thought, okay, is it just
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: a Utah thing, like a state thing? And then I
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: did a deeper dive, and it's actually been in the
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: system but not required across the board nationally. So it
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: would be my dream and my goal to have that
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: lethality assessment taken to every CPS call, every DV call.
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: And then for, honestly, people to have it in their
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: note section.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: That is, like, I could be a happy person if everyone,
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: lethality assessment was something that people talked about at dinner parties.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: at coffee with their girlfriends, at workouts, at Pilates? Like,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: have you taken it? Do you take it regularly?
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: What do you think that law enforcement could have done differently?
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: And I know you have rave reviews about this community.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: And I know that I'm assuming the law enforcement is
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: also tight knit in terms of, you know, being part
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: of the community and they know each other maybe more
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: than most communities would. I mean, I'm guessing sort of,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: but I But tell me what you think could have
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: happened differently there. When you look at the totality of
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: the story, do you feel like there was any missed
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: opportunity in terms of law enforcement not maybe interviewing Michael?
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, listen, the legal system is a system.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: The justice system, I always say, it's just a system.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: It does not necessarily promise justice.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's a system.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: I will say that I didn't feel like there was
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: any corruption, which is a big thing to say for
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: a small community.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I didn't see corruption either.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: No.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: And it wasn't, nothing was malicious or intentional.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: Overlooked.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: I will say the communication between the school and law
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: enforcement felt very cohesive. I think Mike Bleak is wonderful
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: and I think he cares so much, but things get,
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: it slipped through the cracks. And we see that a
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: lot in all of toxic. I mean, whether you file
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: something in one especially on the East Coast where there
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: are so many different jurisdictions close by where you file
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: something here and they are not communicating with something, you know,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: another jurisdiction three miles away.
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: We see that a lot.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: We've spoken about that, another true crime.
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, I think, like,
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: they did well, I would say.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: The only thing I will say is that, again, I'm
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: not sure of Utah exactly what the protocol is in Utah.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: The only thing that I felt was really upsetting to
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: watch was that a child making those accusations and complaining
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: like that about her father over and over again. I
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: couldn't understand why maybe earlier on the children weren't taken
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: out of the home. And so we have that question
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: for you.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, that's the last thing Tasha wanted. She
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: stayed in this relationship. So she could have her children
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: with her, right? So she was running interference, which I
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: think we do as women to keep your family together.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: But you're right. I mean, are they thinking it's a
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: moody teenager?
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: If the mom's not validating it necessarily, like, you know,
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: nothing is in a vacuum. I think, and listen, no,
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying everything went well because the third CPS
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: call could have been, but at the end of the day,
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: when somebody wants to do this, I feel that they
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: are going to do it.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: There's no blame. We're not victim blaming here. Or not
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: only just not victim blaming. I mean, I'm not talking
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: about Tasha.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: I just, it was curious to me that Maisie was
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: so young and kept making these complaints. And that even
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: if Tasha had corroborated Michael's story or not, that the
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: children weren't removed.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: No, you're right.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: You're right. I think that probably has to do with the, Well,
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: I don't know because I go back and forth. If
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: this happened in LA, I live in LA. If this
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: happened in LA, I don't think the attention would have
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: been paid to it, right, in a bigger city. Or
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: would it have just been more like black and white?
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, Dustin, one of the police officers who really
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: was the first on the scene, his son was in
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: the same class as Ammon. And he knew that Ammon
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: had received this Lego ship. And so his son wanted
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: the same one. He walks in, he sees the Lego ship,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: and then you know, Ammon's body. And so I have to,
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: it's just such a different thing than when you look
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: at different cities and just different jurisdictions.
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: But you're right.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is where we learn and this is
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: where we can hopefully save lives is to shine light
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: on the discrepancies of what could have happened should they
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: have taken the kids away or would Tasha have, you know,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: died on that hill to make sure. I mean, that's
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: why she was still suffering is to keep her kids
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: under one roof. right.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: And he wouldn't leave and, and all of that. So
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Hasha was brave and she did in fact file for
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: divorce and which did not have been easy. I think maybe,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: maybe even harder being part of that particular community, but
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: she was brave and we heard it in her voice
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: and we heard those recorded conversations and she didn't sound afraid.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: She sounded really, really impressive. Once she served him with
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: papers though, is there anything different? Again, this is not
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: victim shaming. This is only educating, right? Like, is there
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: anything that you think Tasha could have done? She had
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: her mother come would it have been better if she
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: had gone for her parents? Maybe Michael would have followed them.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying it would have made the difference, but
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: if we're talking to our, to listeners, right? Is there
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: anything that you think she could have done differently that
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: may have changed the outcome?
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: It all goes back to financial control and abuse.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: If she knew that he had four and a half
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: million dollars in the bank, it was technically supposed to
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: also be her.
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: It's right.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: She's been that she, she, if she knew the financial situation,
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: she would have been fighting so hard for that house.
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: She wouldn't have been fighting so hard for the.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Only, like only like worldly possession. She thought that she
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: had left other than her kids. If she were aware
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: of that and, and was not like new, what was
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: at stake? I think she would have said, okay, we're
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: going to go to a hotel. You can stay in
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: the house and who knows, this is all hearsay. And
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: I'm in no position to say like, I'm just talking.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: I know that. Yeah, I know.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just trying to think of like looking
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: at it, right. Just to give advice to, um, you know,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: to others, to other women that are suffering. And I
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: don't know if there is an answer.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: Well, we listen to our lawyers. We listen to our
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: lawyers and there's no playbook for divorce. There's no playbook
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: for marriage. There's no playbook for any of this. And
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: that's why I was obsessed with talking to every family
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: separation therapist because I couldn't read one book that would
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: promise me that my children wouldn't be traumatized from divorce
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: by itself, right?
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: Forget everything else.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: And so we listened to lawyers. Her lawyer told her,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: you're forfeiting basically possession if you leave.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: He won't leave.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: And so it's, I think, find resources maybe outside of
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: your community that can offer different perspectives and then be
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: super financially aware because that is the most binding thing
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: is if you don't know your finances.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: It's going to be different in every state.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: In Utah, in terms of getting a restraining order, I mean,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I think she was probably... She was headed that way, right?
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: But was there... Is there more than... Did there have
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: to be a certain amount of reports in order to
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: get one? Does there have to be a certain amount
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: of evidence? And could she not get that?
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Well, I think across the board, what we know about
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: restraining orders is that a lot of time it's just
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: a piece of paper. And again, I just have learned
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: all this in the last four years in hosting and
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: executive producing this show. I think... she also wanted the
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: kids to have like at least the dad present from
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: what I understand, you know, she didn't want to light
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: a match and throw it on a gasoline fire. Like
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: she didn't want to blow everything up in my opinion.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: I think she was trying to do it as well
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: as she knew how with the guidance of her friends
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: and her family.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Living in fear and living in absolute object terror. And,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: you know, and I think what's, But you are providing
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: a roadmap here. This is not just a documentary telling
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: the story, right? We're looking at a documentary that is
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: trying to provide an instruction manual. If you feel some
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: of this, here's the test you take. Here's what you
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: can do to save yourself and your children, right? So
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at it and I'm looking at all the
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: decisions that she made out of desperation, fear, and love.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: And love of her children.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: And I'm wondering, you know, what could she have done
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: to take in, what else could she have done to
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: take in her power back without again for the 18th time?
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: And this is not about blame.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: No, of course it's learning. We're learning.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: And I think that's the only way to make sense
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: of something that's so senseless.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: And I think it's documentation, documentation, documentation.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: And we talk about this across the board with our
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: survivors on toxic is You have to document and you
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: have to advocate. You are your only advocate for yourself
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: and your children. And when it is to this point,
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: and again, that's where the lethality assessment, when you're like,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: I am answering four or more, it is now like
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: very cut and dry. It's not going to get better.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: We're not living in optimism land. It is now protection
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: and accountability. And again, if you're answering two to the
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: lethality assessment, beware. Okay, I have three or four. Now
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: it's time to lock in. And I always see this.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: The ones that really make it are the ones that
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: are documenting everything, communicating, and fighting for themselves and their children.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: And I always say, if you're not going to do
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: it for yourself, do it for your kids. Because as
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: moms and as women, and also dads, we'll do things
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: for our children that we don't necessarily do for ourselves.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: But documentation is everything. Okay.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: That's good to know.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: So tell me, before we wrap, tell me a little
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: bit about, I know that the case helped spark some
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: reform in Utah. So can you tell me about some
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: of the changes that have come about from this tragedy?
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, this community had never seen homicide.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: They had never, it was new to them. Luckily with,
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: or not luckily, but as a result of the The
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: Vegas shootings that happened a couple of years prior, they
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: had some sort of sense of community triage where they
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: did a lot of, they did EMDR as a community.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Everyone had gone through the same thing. And so they
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: did like group therapy, which I thought was really beautiful
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: to see. And a lot of conversations and a lot
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: of these children were afraid of their dads, right? As kids,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: all you know is what you hear and see from
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: your classmates. So some of them didn't want to sleep
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: alone or didn't want to sleep with their dad and
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: it was really interesting to hear the reaction, which also
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: makes sense. So I will say beyond a legal standpoint,
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: a lot of therapeutic, like bonding and community healing, and
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: then really people looking at what happened and what could
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: have changed. I do believe From a state perspective, I don't,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not aware of that right now. I can just
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: tell you from the local perspective how differently the police
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: department approaches these cases. And really how it sets them
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: off in a way to really look at other members
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: of the community that had the same tendencies and focus
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: on them in terms of this could also happen. Good.
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: Isn't that so interesting?
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: And again, I look at LA or New York and
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't, that wouldn't have happened. I'm not,
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: I sound like I'm a freaking PR person for Enoch, Utah.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: I'm not, but it was just such a beautiful thing
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: that I had never experienced.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: I was touched by it just as a viewer.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: I was touched by these women and it felt like
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: they were a big family, right?
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: Exactly, exactly.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: And I will say like Mike Bleak, the lead detective, He.
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: Was in L.A. last week.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: He came to my sister's 40th birthday party at my home.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: I had a big birthday party, and Mike came over.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: And, like, they are exactly who they say they are.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: And he says, like, there are three people.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: In this community I have got my eyes on. We're
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: checking on their families. And I think, like, if you can't,
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: you know, whatever happens legally at a state level and
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: a federal level, we have to take care of our communities.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: This has been, obviously, a huge magnifying glass in terms
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: of making sure it doesn't happen again. And now it's
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: our job doing things like this to spread the word
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: so people can see those signs, can take the lethality assessment,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: and can ensure that regardless of your community, this doesn't
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: happen again.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Will you give us, please, before we say unfortunately goodbye,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: some information about where people can reach out?
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: Sure, of course.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: We're on ID. If you have any questions about lethality assessment,
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: you can literally Google it. You can watch the hate special.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: And the.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: Thing that really is the takeaway here is it.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: Doesn't get better. Monitor yourselves. Monitor relationships. Record. Put reports.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: Give reports to your police department. It doesn't mean the
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: end of your marriage. It doesn't mean the end of anything.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: Just file the reports.
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: Just place.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: Make sure you have a record of things. Because it
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: doesn't happen in a vacuum. It does not improve. And
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: then watch Toxic on ID every Tuesday night because abuse
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: comes in all shapes, forms, and fashion.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: And the more education, conversation, and language we have, the better.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: I know ID has a website, noexcuseforabuse.com. So there's that,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: you guys, as well. Well, thank you so much for
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: joining us. Thank you for the good work.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Keep it up.
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: It's so nice to meet you.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: We appreciate you.