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SMNTY Classics: Halloween and Women · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephane.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never told you a protection of iHeartRadio, and today we are.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: It is the weekend before Halloween. Because we've been traveling
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: a lot lately.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I can't speak for Samantha, but my plans are to
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: carve a pumpkin and watch a lot of horror movies.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: I do have one more haunted house that I'm doing
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: a Monday, but that's it.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: That's all day officially the day before Halloween. Then huh, yes,
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: it's gonna be crowded. Y'all wanna have fun?
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we're gonna.
• 0:40
  Speaker 5: I do not want to go.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: No, I figured you didn't, so I hope you're not offended.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't ask you because I feel like I know
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: you well enough to.
• 0:48
  Speaker 5: Know every you do it.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: I'm like, you have fun, bye, Yes, I will invite
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: me one you and I was like no.
• 0:55
  Speaker 5: That's when I was like never.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I do love I love Halloween.
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: I have all of my like, I have my pumpkin.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna carve it, as I said, this weekend, and
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I've got my pumpkin candles.
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: I like the vibe of it that I am tired.
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: I'm tired.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I've been trampling a lot, and I'm just gonna stay in.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: But one of the things I think about a lot
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: with Halloween are foods. I think a lot about kind
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: of like fall foods, autumnal foods, if you will. And
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: we did this episode a while back about kind of
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: these old traditions around food and Halloween, like using an
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: apple to predict your future or something like that. And
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: as I have been speed watching all of my horror movies,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: I have seen that in a lot of a lot
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: of them. But also in this one, we talk about
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: gender differences in costumes. And I just recently saw us
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: side by sight, and it wasn't even about gender differences
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: in costumes, just a side by side of two costumes
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: of the same thing, and the costume Beer Girls was
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: much more sexualized. So this is still going going strong.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: But yeah, we hope that you have a fun, safe weekend,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: whatever you celebrate or don't celebrate, And we would love
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: to hear about any of your traditions, any of your costumes.
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, yes, that.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Would be amazing. But in the meantime, please enjoy this
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: classic episode. Hey, this is Annie.
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: And Samantha, I know, come to stuff I've never told
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: you production of iHeartRadio.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: So, Samantha, the other day, I was talking about this
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: old game I used to play that I'll get into
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: you more in a second, but it was a predictive game,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: right of learning who your husband are, getting a clue
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: who your future husband would be.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: And you had no idea what I was talking about.
• 3:08
  Speaker 5: Still don't.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: Have you.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, did you do anything like that, like where
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: you were trying to figure out any clues about who
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: your future partner would be.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: I mean we played the match game and then the
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: little uh fortune teller.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: Game or the Fortune Teller. Yeah, yeah, those games.
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: But I have never had a real tradition. I know that
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: there is one for Marti Gras. Is it a Martini
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Gras cake where they have a baby, a ring and
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: something else in a cake? And if you find that
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: then those are supposed to be significant of sorts. Those
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: are the only things that I know, and I don't
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: know if that's Marti Gras.
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: Is it Marti Gras?
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Marti Gras has the baby cake? I believe there is
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: a version that has like a a ring or something.
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: I know we did it at a wet like a shower,
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: and I thought it was really weird because I've never
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: seen that. And that was a college friend.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: Who they did this for at a bridal shower. Bridal
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: ludgeonals looking around like what so I was so confused.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: So obviously I don't know these traditions very well.
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: Well, you are in for Age s Reach just all
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: the time for Halloween. Uh, yeah, it is interesting.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: I believe I've heard of that cake thing you're talking
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: about too, and I believe it's supposed to predict who's
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: getting married next. Okay, yes, similar to catching the bouquet
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: at a wedding, which is hilarious for me because I'm
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: very competitive and I've like always caught it. Oh, I
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: have no interest in getting married. Oh I'm so competitive.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I'm like the person that's like bending now.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: Here we go and then all these dudes will come
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: up to you afterwards and they're like congratulations, and you're like, yeah.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: I caught it, clearly not what they're talking about.
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: Oh that's MS king cakes, king.
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: Cakes, kink.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean normally in my experience, kin cake
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: doesn't have it is a Marty grat cake, but it
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: doesn't have the ring but yes, I think, and.
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: So baby, right, James, it's a baby. Yeah, okay, but yes.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Since Halloween is right around the corner as we're recording
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: this and as you listen to it, if you listen
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: to it right when it comes out, we wanted to
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: dig into some Halloween traditions that involve women and some
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: more modern takes on these traditions or some more modern
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: things that are going on, including games and costumes.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: And one of them is.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: This sort of food tradition of like a food predicting
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: who you're going to marry. And it is one thing
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: that I've been really curious about this idea, and especially
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: around Halloween, of these traditions around women eating or using
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: certain food so that they can figure out something about
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: their future spouse, and it's usually a husband.
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: It's very heteronormative.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: And this is something that I come across surprisingly regularly
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: over the other podcast I do, Savor, which is all
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: about food and drink.
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: We just did an episode on Rosemary and there's a
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: high le.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Specific game girls used to play, and there's even a
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: more modern version where you put like your phone and
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: it has to have a picture of Rosemary on the
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: screen under your bed. If you do, you'll dream about
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: your future husband. But before phones, or you could get
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: a printed picture, because that also works. People would put
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: sprigs of rosemary under their pillow. Girls specifically would put
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: sprigs of rosemary under their pillows. And if you dreamt
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: and you saw the blurry face of a man, that.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: Was your future husband. But if it was a clear face,
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: that's not him.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: You stay away from that guy, which I love because
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: it's so vague. Okay, Yes, Another tradition involves a ring
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: hidden in a potato indicating who will get married next,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: or yes, the one I did that I mentioned at
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: the top, and I think I've mentioned a few times
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: on this show. I used to peel an apple and
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: you toss the peel for some reason. I remember it
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: specifically being over your left shoulder, but I don't think
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: it matters.
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: Well, I guess it really doesn't matter in a lot
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: of ways.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: But it was supposed to form the initial of the
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: first name of your future husband if you've left it
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: outside for a couple of hours. And I got a
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: D or perhaps a C, which I do think are
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: like the easiest right letters.
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: It was gonna for right.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: Or oh yeah, I need to know someone got a Y.
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: I need to know someone got a Q.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: I need to know if someone got like any of them, Like,
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: did you get any of those letters?
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: Because that would be more shocking yes for me?
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: Yes?
• 7:35
  Speaker 5: Or how many of those people who actually did marry
• 7:38
  Speaker 5: a D C or O, which I imagine is the
• 7:41
  Speaker 5: or L or I like, those are the people.
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: We'll see. I mean, I got my whole futurehead of me.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Of course, these are they're games, They're just games. It
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: makes sense to me that girls who we've long taught
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: that getting married is the end all, be all and
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: for a good or some history something their future and
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: security and.
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: Happiness depended on.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I would have these rituals around predicting who it was
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: they were going to get married to. I believe we've
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: talked before about mash like that was a really popular
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: thing that right, Oh.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: I played match. Apparently I call it a different thing because.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: I didn't want to stand for it.
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: Didn't you want a shack, so I got a cabin.
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: So you changed the.
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: House.
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: I love it.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: You made the rules fit you almost a shack. That's fantastic.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: I love that says a lot about you. I really
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: appreciate it.
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: I mean my own future, dammit, I love it.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: But anyway, so many of these games were ideally performed
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: on celebratory days when seasons were changing, like Halloween. I
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: know there's a lot of autumn festivals, and the Maypole
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: thing is very seasonal as well, like spring, right, spring, summer. Yeah,
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: so when people believe that the veil between the living
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: and the dead was thinner, potentially allowing them to see
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: into the future, to get some sense of what was coming.
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: Done, done, done so.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: Halloween and its predecessor festivals in Europe also marked the
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: end of the harvest, beginning of winter less sunlight hours
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: periods some worried may one day never end.
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: I feel like that's plot to a show. Which show
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: is that?
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: To that end, people would celebrate and make offerings to
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: gods and spirits, and food was often a part of
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: all of this, including something called the dumb cake, though
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: it came around a bit later.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, and shout out to Jan who's been listening to
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: all the backlog, and it's been wonderful to hear hear
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: from Jan as they work through from bringing this one
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: to our attention, IM pointing us out to this very
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: helpful and fun article over at Atlas Obscura written by
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Ann Ubank about this whole thing. Also shout out to
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: listener Renee for calling in about using the word dumb
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: and how hurtful it can be in the deaf community.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: And we're going to try to do better in the future.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: This is the name of this cake, but we're going
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: to try to use it as little as possible, but
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: always appreciate these notes so we can do better.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: Oh bt dubs, because it just reminded me of the fact.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: So I just rewatch American Horror Story some of the
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: old seasons and they do talk about Halloween and the
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: fact that during the season of the Witch Season, rather
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: where Madame Laurie coming back, and she was like, Oh,
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: it's Halloween already, Do I need to set out the
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: lanterns and get ready for the bonfires and the festival
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: essentially she talked about. I was like, Oh yeah, that
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: used to be the whole Jaquelineer thing. But then a
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: listener also pointed out the fact that we forgot to
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: mention Sarah Paulson being a screen queen.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: I was like, oh yeah, because she.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Has that trend going on on dot saying help me
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: the killer is escaping. Okay, this just reminded me of
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: all of those things, so I feel like I needed
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: to say that, and thank you to our listener for
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: reminding me of that.
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: Keep going.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, she did appear on some list Yes, okay.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: So from the seventeen hundreds to nineteen hundreds, unmarried women
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: in the UK and North America would take part in
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: this baking ritual to divine their future husbands. As far
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: as games go, it was more of a spooky sleepover game,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: kind of like Bloody Mary, with the goal of seeing
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: your future husband in your dreams. That's a recurring theme
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: is it's like in your dreams you're going to see
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: this person. The origins of it are hard to pin down,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: but it was probably first played in or around Scotland,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: perhaps a riff on eating bread on Shrove Tuesday to
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: see your future spouse. Though again, different versions of this
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: game have existed around the world for pretty much forever,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: and listeners, we would love to hear you have any
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: experience with any of these, or if you have any
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: history in your country with any of these, please please
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: let us know. The first known written description of this
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: cake appeared in a sixteen eighty five book on witchcraft
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: by George Sinclair called Satan's Invisible World discovered. Sinclair, a
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: demonologist and mathematician, likened it to a very silly and
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: potentially dangerous superstition the world discovered.
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: I know, that's the whole thing, all right.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: So in the early days they were certainly viewed by
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: Christians as an unsavory remnants of pagan religions that would
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: bring evil down upon any fool to partake in them.
• 12:43
  Speaker 5: You're fool, any you're one of those, now, I know.
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: I didn't know. It's damned you.
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: For instance, take this quote from the seventeen fifties book
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: God's Revenge against the Breakers of the Ten Commandments, that
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: execrable way of making what is termed a dumb cake
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: with a thousand other tricks in order to see or
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: dream of their sweethearts, which are still too much in
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: use among young maidens, in in order to satisfy their
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: insatiable curiosity and inexcusable impatience.
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: Inexcusable in patience.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: How dare the take on such witchcraft?
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: I'm very bad at this.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, I thought it was great. I thought it
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: was great. I mean, I guess you should put a
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: note in here. Like again, it's really easy to make
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: fun of things like this because it sounds silly, but
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: I did the same thing, and especially at this time,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: your whole future was really as a young girl writing
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: on this future sweetheart or spouse, right, So it just
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: really really makes sense to me. And I know we've
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: talked about witches and witchcraft and especially women around that,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: and you know, violence, it led to violence, and all
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: the suspicion of what usually just young girls or maybe
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: beliefs that weren't didn't fit into this very strict idea
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: of Christianity.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: So it's yeah, just a note, right. This guy, I'm
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: sure was terrible. He sounds like a real piece of work,
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: a real piece of work he does. No one's too
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: sure where the name came from. Either.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Some suspect it comes from an older definition for dumb,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: meaning silent. Others think it might be derived from the
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Middle English definition for doom, meaning fate or destiny. But
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: wherever it came from, it was incredibly popular for a
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: couple of centuries in the UK and North America, to
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: the point accounts of it appeared in news stories, folklore, anthologies,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: and even research papers. These accounts paint a general picture
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: of how it went. Late in the night, maybe around midnight,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: two or three girls gave together to bake a cake
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: in complete silence.
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: And side note, I love how many of these games
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: involve complete silence, almost as if the parents created them
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: or something.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: The ingredients were simple, typically including flour, salt, and water.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Each girl then wrote their initials into the cake, and
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: then it was placed into the oven to bake again
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: total silence. Once done, the girls pulled the cake out
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: of the oven and broke it, perhaps each taking a bite.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: Then they walked backwards.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: To their beds, placing their piece of cake under their
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: pillows and going to sleep so that they could dream
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: of their future husband.
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: So they didn't eat it. They spit it out and
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: put it under their bed.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I think they took a bite, but there was
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: still a piece left to put.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: Under the pillow.
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: Sounds messy.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: It was a harder cake than what we're used to.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: It was kind of a tougher Yeah, all right, it's checking.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And as you're talking about, yeah, I can't imagine
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: what these processes were like. Because if you didn't dream
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: of someone, that means you're doomed, right.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that it wasn't a It sounds like aus.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: We're going to get into it in a second. It
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: was kind of scary no matter what. If you saw someone,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: it was kind of scary. If you didn't see someone,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: it was kind of scary. There's a lot of fear
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: around it, which again also makes sense to me if
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: this was something you truly believed. But also the Atlas
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Obscura article I mentioned earlier, the author and a friend
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: attempted this and it was funny because she was like,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: I dreamed of.
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: Nothing, not a damn thing.
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: Well, yeah, so that would be the less frightening outcome.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: So in some versions, the husband was supposed to show up,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: and here's a quote from an eighteen sixteen description. Man,
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: we have good records on this quote. A few minutes
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: after midnight, a husband of her, who was to be
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: first married, will appear to lay his hand on the
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: part of the cake marked with her name.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: That does sound a little creepy to me.
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: Why are you in my bedroom?
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: Come on? Oh?
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And speaking of sometimes the boyfriends were pretty annoyed at
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: being summoned in some versions of these, as in this
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: nineteen thirteen article about folklore Out of England by Angelina Parker.
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: Quote.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: An old lady once told me that a girl in
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: this way brought her future husband, who was a soldier,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: into the room, and in passing through the doorway, he
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: broke his sword in two. The girl picked up the
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: broken piece and kept it after she had been married
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: to him some years. In turning out her trunk, she
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: came across it and showed it to her husband, and
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: he was so angry he could hardly forgive her. He
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: told her he suffered dreadful agonies during the time she
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: forced him to appear, although he did not then know
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: of the reason.
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: The way to blame a woman.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: True, true, true, true, these mysterious agonies, it must have
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: been you.
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: That's the only explanation.
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: That could have been a whole plot point.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure I've ever seen, like a horror version
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: story of what we think is a romance and then
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: it turns out to be it was very painful for
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: the other.
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: Person involved, or something. I think I've seen.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Some fairy tale versions that are similar but not quite
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: mm hm. In another version of this game, a dark
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: shadow would appear upon the breaking of the bread, chasing
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: the girls, and the only salvation from a mysterious but
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: surely terrifying fate was to jump straight into bed again.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: I love how many of these.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm right, but it just feels
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: like parents trying to get their.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: Is go to sleep and be quiet, get into that bed.
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: He go straight to bed, or your future husband's going
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: to come and chase.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: You, terrify you. Uh huh.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: And at least once, making one of these cakes did
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: lead to disastrous real world consequences. Three girls working at
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: an English estate accidentally made their cake using a poisonous ingredient.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: That night, they woke members of the estate with their
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: agonized screaming. One actually died, the other two survived, only
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: to be derided in the news as quote two deluded females.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: But again, as one writer put it in eighteen forty nine,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: a young maiden will go through a great deal in
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: order to get some kind of answer to a question
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: that so deeply involves her happiness.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: Here's a description of the whole thing by Charles Dick
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: from nineteen eleven.
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: Quote.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: The two must go to the larder and jointly get
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: the various ingredients. First, they get a bowl, each holding
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: it and wash and dry it together. Then each gets
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: a spoonful of flour, a spoonful of water, and a
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: little salt.
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: When making the.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: Cake, they must stand on something they have never stood
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: on before. They must mix it together and roll it.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: Then they draw a line across the middle of the
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: cake and each girl cuts her initials, each on opposite
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: sides of the line. Then both put it in the
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: oven and bake it. It seems like a really big
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: bonding time.
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: Annie. Should we try this?
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: I think we should.
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: I think we should.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: The silence far will be hard, and if we have
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: to walk back anywhere that I'm done for.
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, because if I have to go down some stairs, no, no.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: So this is actually the one I believe that the
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Atlas Obscura article that they used, and my favorite part
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: was them trying to find something to stand on that
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: they'd never stood before.
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: Can we get a piece of carpet that we just buy?
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: I'm sure, Okay, I think I could find things in
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: your apartment.
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: I have to run? Yeah?
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: Do I have to go to someone's house I've never
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: been before and never stand in front of that place?
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: I think the friend had an easier time finding something.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Oh no, okay, no, that's too much that I got
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to put the foot down.
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: Well, if we revisited, I think that could be fun.
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: We'll let you listen. There's know how it goes.
• 21:22
  Speaker 5: If we find out.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, But for now, let's talk about bobbing for
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: apples and the related game Snap Apple, which sounds slightly terrifying.
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: I can't wait to talk about it.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: As a summer slash fall fruit especially, and here we're talking,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: we're still talking about mostly European North American traditions. Apples
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: were often involved in early Halloween celebrations and used ensue
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: saying rituals. On top of that, they have a long
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: history of being seen as somewhat magical. I'm sure, like,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: off the top of my head, I'm already think it's
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: so white. There's just a bunch of like eve, there's
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of imagery around apples. You can go see
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: that episode Favorite did on Apples. We go into that
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: and why that is a little bit so if you
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: want to learn more. As mentioned earlier, there's the using
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: of the apple peel to ascertain the initial of your
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: future spouse. Another though was bobbing for apples a tradition
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: that most likely originated in Europe and perhaps specifically Britain.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: It started off a bit differently than what we do now.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Have you ever bought for apple Samantha.
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: No, nope. It just didn't seem sanitary.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I think i've I mean especially now, I'm like, what
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: were we thinking? I think I've only done it once,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: and I'm so bad. I never got an apple and
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: I hated it. It was pretty miserable to be honest, have.
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: A giant mouth, uh huh, and then also really good teeth,
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: and I do not have either one of them. Well,
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: I have a big mouth, but you know what I mean?
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean now I have with my front fake juice.
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: I would never ever tip something like this.
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: My teeth are so sensitive. I couldn't do it.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's highly it like bounces away, it
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: bobs away. But there there was never any who's your
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: future spouse going to be element when I've thought of it,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: or that one time that I played it.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: It was just can you get the apple? But there
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: did used to be.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: In one version of this tradition, as it used to go,
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: girls and women would secretly mark the apples and put
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: them in a barrel of water. Then potential matches would
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: dunk their heads into the water and bite into an
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: apple as a way to look into romantic futures or
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: bring people together. However, in some parts of Scotland, bobbing
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: for apples once and still does. Listeners please write in
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: if you know share the same name as the practice
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: of dunking women.
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: In water to test if they were witches.
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that makes sense and that's how apple.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's also interesting to me. Again, this all
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: makes sense in terms of a game people would play,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: but it's also kind of like teenagers being shy about
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: asking out somebody. Oh yeah, so there's that element as well.
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: On the other hand, there's snap apple.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: This one is a Halloween tradition also from the British
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Aisles that has roots and paganism.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: Here's how it went.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: The goal was to snag an apple in your teeth
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: without using your hands, instead of dunking your head into water.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: The apple was attached to one end of a stick,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: while a burning candle was attached to the other end.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: The stick itself was.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Dangled from a string and then the whole thing was
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: spun around.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: The player then tried to.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Get the apple, but failure might mean a candle in
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: your face.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: Whoo.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Getting the apple first could either mean you were going
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: to be happy in love or that you'd be the
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: first to be married. A similar, related version of this
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: game called for suspending a hoop from the ceiling. The
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: hoop was adorned with various candies, peppers, breads, cakes, and apples.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Depending on what food the player got, it foretold the
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: nature of their marriage, like spicy or sweet.
• 25:01
  Speaker 5: I don't like any of those games.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: There's some risk involved, for sure, I guess I would
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: rather have the ladder than but still.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, as our friend and coworker Laura likes
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: to say, they didn't have Netflix back then, So find
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: your own entertainment, I suppose so.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: One tradition claimed that you would take an apple to
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: the mirror, shine a candle in it, and eat the apple,
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: which would cause your future husband over your shoulder to
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: appear Tuta. That sounds like a bloody merry game, are there?
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: And another you'd cut an apple into nine pieces, and
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: after you'd eaten the eighth, your lover would.
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: Appear to ask for the ninth. All of these things
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: are how the hell did you get in my house.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Bro they do sound I mean, for someone who watches
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: a lot of horror movies, this doesn't sound romantic. However,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: like I said, some of them were. It just something
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: like Bloody Mary. It was kind of freaky. But okay,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: enough about apples, let's talk about nuts. Nuts were also
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: used for seeing into the future to figure out who
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: you were going to marry. In some places, Halloween may
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: have been called nutcrack Night or the Sacrifice of the Nuts,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: because they were used so much in these sort of
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: future attempts at seeing into the future. Women would name
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: the nuts and put them in the fire. If the
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: nuts cooked together and smoothly, that was good for your
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: chances with that person the nut was named after. If
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: the nuts jumped and cracked, not so good, not looking good.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Another belief held at this time was that if a
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: man brought a woman walle nuts, it was true love,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: which again it feels like if the man knew that,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: then yeah, it's.
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: Just like right right, I did.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, with all of these there's a lot of
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: historical distortion of trying to understand what people believed back
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: at this time, and a lot of different accounts. And
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I did read one where it was actually the opposite,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: and if the nuts cooked slowly and together, it meant
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: boring times ahead for you with that person. But if
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: they jumped in practice gonna be really exciting and fun.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: So the bit about him bringing you nuts, it's kind
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: of a little more of what I had thought of
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: as a kid, like I had two to three specific
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: things that my future husband would do for me for
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: me to know that he was the one, And I
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: did have that, and it was very specific.
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: It has not happened.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: That sounds like practical magic territory.
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: You're getting You're right, You're right. I think about that.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: But yeah, as a kid like, these are the things
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: that I know that I love. And if he does
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: these two things, because I had two specific, very specific things.
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: Then I know he's the one.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: Which makes me kind of gag a little bit, but
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: hey whatever, a little bit nauseous on that one. But anyway,
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: So let's talk about cabbage, types of cabbage or once.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: I feel like this is very Korean for some reason,
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know why. I feel like a lot of
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: Asian food just it just has all the cabbage. So
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, this feels right, so it ties with
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: cabbage or once believed to have Halloween love predicting properties too.
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: What a delight? I love cabbage.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: So I'm not sure about these things. But here's a
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: fun vague one. Great women would go into fields pulling
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: up stocks of kill, examining them for things like link, girth, taste,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: weight to kind of get an idea of what their
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: relationship with their future spouse would be.
• 28:47
  Speaker 5: Light. So is it kind of phallic? Am I pictoring
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: this right? Am I wrong? Or is it just about
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: the entire relationship? Do I just have a dirty mind?
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: It could be either or.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: It was a lot of like a lot of its
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: wordplay right, like if it's long, then the relationship will
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: last long.
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: Oh see, I was completely darny.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: So lots of earth clinging to the roots were often
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: interpreted as a substantial dowry.
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: Didn't the dowry come from the woman?
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think. So he's supposed to be
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: the woman's family.
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: Okay, so this is for guys too, then.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: No, I think it was like I would assume that
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: would I would at the time, you would interpret that
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: as getting married to somebody higher up?
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: Okay, kid, ask for a bigger dowry.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Okay, so if a woman was looking to live a
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: bit more on the wild side, she could steal a
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: cabbage and see who she met on the way home.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: And over in Ireland and Newfoundland, the dish colcannon made
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: of cabbage and potatoes. People would hide a ring and
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: button underneath it, and whoever found the ring was going
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: to get married soon, and the button portended you would
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: never marry. Say it can be yeah, I guess so, yes,
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: I don't want to be married. That is a really
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: interesting reaction from me because it's supposed to be how
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: it's supposed to be seen, right, But yes, I am absolutely.
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: Parsons was like, I don't want to be married. That
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: sounds awful.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean not to harp on this point
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: too much, but it was. It's still a big deal now,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, but back then it was a
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: much bigger right.
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: Woman's value was in marriage, absolutely.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, and also as a game, you know, sort of
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: similar to old maid. And this is still something we
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: have to shape today culturally.
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: But like, there's nothing worse or scarier than being old
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: and married woman.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: So I can imagine at a party.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: On social media being like this is not even be
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: alone like it's the worst thing to put on someone.
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: They're like, Okay, cool, it's.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: Fine, I'm good. Yeah, I think yeah. And that's just
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: the sampling.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: There are so many of these, and these were Halloween focus.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: But again, listeners, if you've got some or if you've
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: played them, let us know. We did want to talk
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: briefly about costumes. And we've done several episodes in the
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: past around women's costumes and even the history of Halloween
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: and especially here in America and the commercialization of it
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: and how women were heavily involved in the early days.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: So this is going to be a much more modern look.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Also, thanks again to Jessica who suggested we look into this.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: So there has been some recent research around gender differences
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: and costumes and why these differences matter. The researchers duck
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: through sixteen hundred costumes in this recent research on two
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: online costumes superstore websites sites that have a fairly strict
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: line between men's costumes and women's costumes, same with boys
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: and girls. Some of the findings of this research weren't surprising.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Women's costumes are tighter, sexier, and if that wasn't what
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: a woman wanted, there weren't many options outside of that.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: We've all heard the arguments, I'm sure around why do
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: women always have to wear sexy costumes? It's slut a weird?
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: Oh no.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: But if the only options for women are sexy, which
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: shouldn't really be an issue, if that's something the person
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: in question wants to wear, then we're limiting what women
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: can dress as and then judging them for it. In
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: the words of one of the researchers, Aaron Hippel, the
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: issue isn't really that adult women are wearing sexy costumes.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Women should be allowed to choose what we wear all
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: year round. The issue is that there are limited choices.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: If one shops on the women's side of the Halloween
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: sales floor divide, the choices are very limited. U.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: So it sends this message that women and girls should
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: be sexy, that they're looks are our front and center
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: and should be front and center, and that their bodies
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: are for consumption for the mail.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: Gays.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Again, if you want to dress sexually, totally should a.
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: Big believer in that. But it's the issue of options.
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: Right, And they've got numbers to back this up too.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: So they found eighty eight percent of women's costumes showed
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: skin compared to sixteen percent of men's. The number is
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: sixty eight percent for girls compared to one percent of boys.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: So since for a good chunk of the people who
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: are celebrating Halloween are celebrating it in public, Halloween falls
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: in cooler months, that means options for comfort and warmth
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: are limited unless you are like me and you get
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: a onesie and you're like, nah, I'm good bro in
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: my Panda onesie.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: I have had so many cold halloweens. I remember there
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: was a cold.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Snap in Atlanta, Oh, when I was in college, so
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: you know, many years ago, and just being so cold
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: and uncomfortable and going home because my costume was very skimpy.
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: Yes, right.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: And on top of that, ninety three percent of women's
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: costumes over tight, even uncomfortably so, compared to the twenty
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: eight percent of men's And that's forty nine percent of
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: girls versus five percent four boys.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I had a friend that almost passed
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: out once from her tight Harley Quinn outfit.
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: So you can get really uncomfortably tight, right, Yeah.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: For those that are just like pre manufactured, obviously very
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: cheaply made costumes is typically the worst material size, like
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: for young preprebescent girls, and the fact that's thin see
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: through not necessarily on purpose, it's just the way it is.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: It's like this is the worst combination of costuming, or
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: they're ridiculously expensive and I'm like, I'm not spending one
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: hundred and fifty dollars on that antique.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, right, well yeah, I mean that's another good point
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: is if comfort isn't clearly isn't a priority for women's costumes,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: and it's again kind of sending this message that it's
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: not about you know, and it's.
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: About how you look and how other people see you.
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: So in interviews, the researchers described how they would have
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: to go through several pages of women's costumes before finding
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: one that wasn't sexualized, whereas for men, the very first
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: option wasn't nice. This finding put out numbers that demonstrate
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: just how big this gender gap is. And I was
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: just thinking about this too, like if you think about
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: even historical levels of costumes, they're all made sexy, and
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: you're like, that was That's not what it was. You
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: kind of have this moment of trying to figure out
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: why something that is already nice has begun even beyond
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: and then we won't talk about the cultural appropriation that
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: happens within these costumes, but how they're also sexualized. I
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: was thinking about there was just a recent argument on
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: TikTok because I'm now officially on TikTok all the time and.
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: I need to ban myself from it.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: But whatever, the whole idea of why people are arguing
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: with other people about why can't I dress up as Pocahontas,
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: why can't I dress up as Mulan and being there
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: to be like, it's not the point that you may
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: have really liked these what you know of as Disney characters,
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: but the appropriation of what you're doing and what you're
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: trying to do, especially when we talk about indigenous communities,
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: Hey watch it.
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: And then especially the.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: Overly sexualized tones of these costumes and what you're doing
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: it for is not because you're doing it because you
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: appreciate these individuals and you see them as iconic. You're
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: doing them because you're being a sexy version of something
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: that is known, and that's disgusting.
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: On so many levels.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's interesting how it's such a big,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: accepted kind of thing about like women's costumes will be
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: sexy that I think that. Just the other day I
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: heard like three for jokes about it, you know, sexy
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: crayons or sex just like random object right and it's sexy.
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, And I know.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: I've heard, And I suppose there could also be an
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: argument that this is one of the only times of
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: the year women feel it's acceptable to dress as sexy
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: as their heart desires, which is also a problem. Most
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: likely all these things are going on at once. I
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: remember one year I dressed in a cute what I
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: was like, modest outfit and went around telling everyone I
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: was tired of having sexy costumes, only sexy costume options.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: I just remember being at this party and being like,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: already kind of going off about this.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: So I'm a proponent of being really silly, and that's
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: kind of one of the things that I try to
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: do for Halloween. And there have been some moments of
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: like me trying to be sexy did not pull off
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: really well, and I was like, I don't feel comfortable
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: in feeling like something that I am not on the constant,
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: and that also again the bigger conversation of being sexualized
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: fetishized as well as just not having confidence.
• 38:06
  Speaker 5: So it's all kind of a layered bunch. But the
• 38:09
  Speaker 5: few times that I have I'm like, this is really bad.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: So one of the costumes that I did because as
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: an Asian person in a white community, I always felt
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: like I couldn't dress as anything and be that, Like
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: I couldn't be the Asian version of something like that
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: just felt wrong and felt weird. And I will say
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: that because it felt like I was trying to put
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: myself in the hierarchy, trying to be white. Not because
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to be one of the white people.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: It was because I was ashamed for not being white,
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: so I couldn't possibly be accepted as white. So that's
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: again a different conversation. So I dressed up as a
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Geisha is being an Asian partment like, oh, this is
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: one thing that I can be that can be kind
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: of sexy. And then coming back to realize, holy, I'm
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: fitting into that same narrative of sexualizing and fetishratizing women
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: with this whole moment of the memoirs of Geisha coming out.
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: And be like this was written by a white man.
• 38:58
  Speaker 5: Do we really want to go into all this?
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: Like this is all of those things, but coming back
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: to realizing, even though it is kind of more accepted
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: because I am at least an Asian woman doing it,
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: I had two white friends do it with me. By
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: the way, the whole big conversation in that that wasn't
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: their fault. It was my idea, I will say to that,
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: But it was problematic then and problematic now. Be going
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: back to looking at it and being like, oh, yeah, okay,
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: I did bad and even though I am Asian, this
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: was bad on me as well, and that bigger narrative
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: of why do I feel like the only things that
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: are sexy are a fantasization of what men think of
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: Asian women, and which is what it can be dangerous
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: for Asian women, Like there's such a bigger narrative of
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: this conversation that it's okay to be sexy, be the
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: sexy creon if you want to, and you feel a
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: fit about it, go ahead your sexy self in that,
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: but have an understanding that, yes, there is a lot
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: of backlash, and that's the bigger conversation of what it is,
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: especially for women once again to sometimes feed into the
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: stereotype that can be really harmful or if you're a
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: white person being like, but I want to be a
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: squid gaze person.
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: Please don't do the eyes. Please don't do that. Don't
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: be racist. That is racist. That is not good.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, no no, And we have I
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: mean for something that feels on its surface level very frivolous.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: There are so many aspects of this, and we've talked
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: about a few before, and I've talked about how sometimes
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: I feel really self conscious when I do like my
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: winter Soldier outfit, which I don't think is very sexy,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: but it's slightly sexy, and kids see that and it's like,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: you know, I like it and I feel good in it,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: but I know that kids are observing that, and they're
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: observing how men might treat me in that, and then.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: That's makes me feel weird, that big strange.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: That's again the conversation of like, why are we not
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: putting the responsibility on men?
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: Yes? Absolutely, mm hmm right. It shouldn't.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Again, you shouldn't be like, oh, I'm this object for
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: you to just treat however you want to treat. But
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: it does turn into that, and I hate when kids
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: see it because it's just like I don't want to contribute.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: And you're right, and it becomes that that's the lesson
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: of the story, not the other problem of the fact
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: that you have been taught as a child and or
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: the parent has been teaching the child. Oh see, the girl,
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: don't do that, because she's the problem. And that's not
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: the truth in this at all. And of course, and
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: I know I'm preaching to the choir when we talk
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: about all of this, but this again same like stripped
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: down of the fact that if done appropriately, everything has
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: been in that caveat. If done appropriately and you feel
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: sexy and you feel good about it, then wonderful. Let's
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: talk about the fact that that is not an open
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: invitation for us to be addled. If you want to
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: look from afar and appreciate, because sure, maybe they put
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: some I'm in that outfit and do want compliments? Okay,
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: if they don't, if they're uncomfortable by you, then don't.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, never touch, Always ask before you take a picture. Anyway, Yes, yes,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: And I was also thinking, I guess there's an argument
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: that in our entertainment, a lot of women's costumes are
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: more sexualized.
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: They're costuming in general.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: And if Halloween costumes are at least in part based
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: on entertainment.
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: Then it filters into that too.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: That doesn't explain things like sexy Bernie costume, but it
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: does explain a lot of uh that sexy Bernie meme costume.
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: Mysel the other day.
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I just saw a sexy ted lasso costume.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: Oh and I didn't know I had. I had a
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: moment of huh.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: See, yeah, I guess my thing would be, is there
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: a non sexy women's ted lassus?
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: I've seen a few.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, couseplaying just straight right, But could you like
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: the sto.
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: So the sexy I will say, the sexy ted lasso.
• 42:59
  Speaker 5: She may on her own. That's pretty good.
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: I'm awesome.
• 43:04
  Speaker 5: But I don't know why that. It doesn't enter my
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: head to do things. I was like, yeah, that's pretty good.
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: Like that's all I could think.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Saw on people's minds, that's for sure. So going back
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: to this research, these are not the only findings they had.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: They also discovered women and girls costumes rarely come with masks.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: One percent and four percent of women's and girls respectively
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: come with masks, compared to thirty five percent and forty
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: six percent of men's and boys. Why researcher Laurie Hier
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: speculates we found that girls and women's costumes provided less
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: coverage and accentuated the wear's own physical attractiveness as the
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: character herself rather than her costume character, so that she
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: became the featured subject. It seems that girl's costumes had
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: to fulfill demands for feminine ornamental display. She must not
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: simply be a princess. She must display herself as pretty
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: in her princess costume. On the other hand, costumes for
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: boys and men put the alternate identity and character at
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: the forefront. Hires went on. Costumes marketed to girls and
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: women consistently promise that she will look cute, sexy, pretty,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: and all eyes will be on her, whereas costumes marketed
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: towards boys typically promise that they will be strong and
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: tough or scary and gross and then yeah. I read
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: another interesting article about this. I wasn't sure how much
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: of waiting to put in it, but they were saying, like,
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: you know, the original intent of Halloween, which we are
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: way off of what it was originally, was that you
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: were supposed to hide your face and like hide your identity,
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: and that was the costume. So that you know, ghost
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: or spirits can find you. I do think that's interesting,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: and I mean, it's just hard for me to like
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: make that argument in our modern times when we've just gone.
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: So far away from that.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: But that is an interesting point when it comes to
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: these boys costumes having so much more coverage and mask
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: whereas women's and girls generally don't. Right.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: I will say one of my favorite costumes that I
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: did as the Grudge Ghost, and I just follow people
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: around making the noise oh freaky.
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: And I stay in character so I'm super annoying.
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: Oh I'm sure you know, like is no longer scary.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: It's well, no, I still did enough that freaked people
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: out and they would all say stop, and I'd be like,
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: I appreciate your dedication, thank you. So another study found
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: that costumes of strong feminist historical icons are lacking when
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: it comes to costume stores, which is why you'll find
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: article after article instructing women and young girls how to
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: diy them. I definitely saw plenty of like Rosie the
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: Reveter and of course RBG with the necklace and all
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: of that. I've seen so many of that, but I
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: have also seen amazing diy like these parents are doing
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: for their young kids. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's amazing.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: I knew that costume.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: I would say that was probably when I was researching this.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: That was a good chunk of the articles on the
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: early Google pages where you know, like.
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: Don't want your young girl to wear sexy costume.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Here's eight costume ideas of famous historical female figures and
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: how to make them, which is another argument that we
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: could make and has been made. It's that that's better
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: for the environments. Right. So, yeah, there's a lot going
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: on in this conversation.
• 46:31
  Speaker 5: A lot more than you thought.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Annie. Well, listeners, we would love to know if you've
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: got any cool costumes you would like to share. Please
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: please please let us know whether you're celebrating or not.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: We hope you have a lovely, safe weekend. And yes,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: if you would like to email us, you can. We
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: would love to hear from you. Our email is Stuff Media,
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Steffon Never sold you thinks It's always too Our super producer, Christina.
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: Happy Halloween, see yes and.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: Thanks to you for listening. Steffon Never Told You his
• 47:03
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• 47:06
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• 47:08
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