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Transcript

What I've Learnt - Autumn Series Gems (May) (2022) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_06: Hi, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_06: I'm Luke, one of the producers of the show.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_06: As a producer, I love my work and helping Deborah and our team share so many amazing stories.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_06: From food to fashion and art to music, we've got you covered.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_06: In this episode, we'll be highlighting some of the best moments from this past May.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_06: So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_04: Well, today I have a very special guest joining me on the podcast, Sue Blashkey, my beautiful mother.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: As her 80th birthday is around the corner, we've joined forces to tell her story and capture her legacy and wisdom in honour of mothers across the world.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_04: Mother of four, wife, barrister, magistrate, and now a mediator, Sue has been a role model for many.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: Friends, some of who went into law inspired by Sue, her children, grandchildren, and of course me.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, Sue, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Deb.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, thank you for having me on your beautiful podcast.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so proud of the work that you're doing and the wonderful interviews that you have.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: I wait for them each week to hear the next one, and each one is better than the last.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a great privilege to be on this with you and thank you for your beautiful introduction.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: And what more can I say?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: What a relationship we've had over so many years, a lifetime.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And let's hope it's going to go on for a lot longer.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks so much, Mum.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: I'm very, very happy to get your vote of confidence.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: This one's going to be beautiful.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's really special to have you joining me.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: I'd like to start talking to you about life as a young girl.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_04: Your parents traveled quite a lot for work, and I think you learnt resilience and self-sufficiency quite early.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_04: Can you talk to me about some of the earliest memories of that time?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, well, that's true.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: My father was um a businessman.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: He was self-made.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: He started his business in the middle of the Great Depression in 1929.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um he started it on his own.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually, his brothers came into the business with him, and then other male members of the family came in with him.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: It was um he he managed to build um with my mother a very successful life and a very successful business.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: But it did involve during my early life a great deal of travel because uh that's the way business was in Australia.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: We were a long way from the rest of the world, and his business involved other other countries and bringing in products from other countries, and it was a very different way of working.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: So he would actually, here my mother would go overseas um quite regularly, and sometimes my father would go away for six months at a time because the only way in the very early days to get to Europe was by ship.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's why it would take so long.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's true, I think it did give me a feeling of self-sufficiency, resilience, and independence.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: But also we often had visitors from overseas visiting our family home and coming for dinner, and I was all met was made to feel quite important at the dinner table.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: And what I had to say, um, they would listen to me and taught me to speak for myself, I think.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a good start.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and that was unusual at that time because often children were seen and not heard, but you were given a voice at the table.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that's very true.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's only as I've reflected later in my life that I've thought about that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't really think about it when I was younger at all, but I realized that I was never told to keep quiet, or what do you think, or what do you know?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was included, and I think that that uh was a very positive thing.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um I had two brothers, one a lot older and one a lot younger.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we were all included in whatever family activities there were.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: And it shows how that sometimes sets the stage for a child to have the confidence to go on and out into the world, because you went in to be you went on to be quite progressive in the way you pursued your career.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_04: But we'll get on to that.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, as a teenager, you were a very good student, but you got quite seriously ill.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_04: I think you were 15.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm interested in how that changed your perspective of life because I think you were bedridden for about a year.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_04: Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yes, well, well, that's true.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I um I started school as a five-year-old at a girls' private school in Melbourne.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, when my mother came to pick me up the first day from PrEP, um the teacher said, Look, I'm sorry we can't keep her in this class because she's been taught to read.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um so my mother said, Well, um, that's interesting.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so what happens?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: And they said, Well, we haven't got room in the next class, but we'll put her into the next one and she'll be fine.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: So within two days, I went from PrEP to grade two, and that meant by the age of 15, I was in year 12, doing what was in those days what's now VCE, but in those days was called matriculation.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I developed a virus of some sort, nobody quite knew what it was, and that put a bit of a halt to my studies, but only temporarily.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually, I managed to get back and complete them.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: But that was that was my early beginnings at school.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you graduated at 15?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: 17-year-olds during matriculation.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Probably um in this day and age, I don't think that would really happen because it was for practical reasons, really.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: It just worked for the school.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Probably didn't work that well for me.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I did clamber my way back um with some degree of fortitude and finished eventually.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Story of my part.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think that's right.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: I think fortitude is a very good word for you, mum.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it's also interesting because I know that was quite a difficult year for you.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like a lot of things do in life.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, when things are challenging, you put them in the box they need to go in and you put them on the shelf and then you move on.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_04: Is that very much what you had to do with that year, or how did you handle it?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yes, I think that's right.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I didn't actually continue my studies that year because I was ill.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I didn't want to stay home feeling ill either.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I looked up the newspapers and I managed to get a job at a law firm in William Street in the city by the name of Blake on Riggle, which was a very significant law firm in those days.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I worked there for a few months and loved it.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I wandered around to Little Burke Street um to see my father in his office, and I asked him if he knew the law firm.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, yes, of course he did.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Oh, well, I work there.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: And there's history, so to speak.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's quite amazing because I suppose what you did is just pick yourself up and saw that.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, from a very early age, you had a sense that you're in charge of your destiny.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, where do you think you got that from?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_04: Is that something that was just genetic or was it something enculturated from your mom who had a different journey, I know, but where do you think that came from?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really, I'm not sure, uh, but I do think um that um my parents always um allowed me to make my own decisions.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there was not a great deal of discussion.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there was always approval of what I wanted to do.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was only if I was going to get out of line a bit and then they'd stop it.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: But um, but otherwise, I sort of learned at a very early age just to make my own decisions about my own journey.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: And they were never critical.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: There was no judgment or criticism of what I wanted to do.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Which was probably reasonably unique for that era.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it probably was.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but of course, um, if you think of it, um I was born in 1941, so right in the middle of the Second World War.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the world was such a different world.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we're in a bit of a different world right now.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: But the world I was born into, um people were really just trying to survive, even here in Australia.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and of course, it was different, but there were hard times generally.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so um to try and build a business was a a major, major feat, um, say for my father.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so the preoccupation really wasn't with it, was looking after the children, but not how the children were feeling particularly.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Children had to fit in a lot more than they do today.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I hear you.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: I think that in some ways what you're saying is that the focus was on the survival of the business and making sure that everybody was working and functioning.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I know my grandfather worked very hard.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you're essentially saying, you know, it wasn't helicopter parenting.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, it was quite the opposite.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, my mother didn't drive a car until um until I was about five or six, I think, when my younger brother was born.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so she finally got her license, um, but was always very nervous driving a car.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was not really her way of doing things.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I would walk down um a road and catch the 69 tram to school, or I'd ride my bike, or I'd walk.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that was the way of the world.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Children were not picked up from school by parents.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a bit of a different world.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_04: But it makes sense because there was a bigger priority of people just trying to manage their lives, and kids were part of it, but they weren't the whole focus in the way that they are now.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: And then obviously, I'm speaking more generally, it's different with everybody, and there's a spectrum of different families as such, even now.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: But I find that a really interesting reflection.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_04: Later on in life, your mum became very unwell.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: You were 27, your husband was doing medicine, you had three kids under 10.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: Is that correct?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, oh younger than that, um, no younger than that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: I at that time it I had a six-year-old, a three-year-old, and I was having another baby, and a year later I had another baby.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Very easy time, um, a very challenging time.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but of course, the children, those four children that we had, of which you're one of them, have been so precious to us in our lives, of the very central focus of our lives.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you know that.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: I think also the fact that you had to, you're quite the exemplification of a multitasker.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: You were trying to support dad, trying to run a family, you had a sick mum, and so often um, you know, you become the central piece of that by virtue of your role.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, what did you learn during that time?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_04: How did you sustain yourself?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_04: And what do you think were the key elements that allowed you to survive that period when Nan was particularly sick?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, um I look, I I think that um when when things go wrong, I mean, I did come from a very happy family, um, and life had been wonderful.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I traveled overseas with my parents um when I was 16, and that was a long eight months traveling all around Europe, and it was wonderful.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think things changed very dramatically when my mother had um an operation that was really unsuccessful and was then um in a coma really for a number of years, and that was a very difficult time.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: But um I trust tried to focus on caring for her, caring for my father, caring for all a few children, and something there was some impetus that just got me going to keep my own career going alongside all of that.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: My mother-in-law lived in Sydney.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have a sister, you're very lucky you have sisters, um, but you're all a bit like my sisters anyway, and so are the granddaughters.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Incredibly blessed to have all of you around me, popping in and out at all sorts of times.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_04: Well, what makes a super intelligent doctor and professor with a stellar career in medicine and academia, a mother of four, immerse herself in the complex, often tough fray of politics.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_04: Cadies lived in the Higgins electorate for 40 years after growing up in Aubrey, New South Wales.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: She was sworn in as the member for Higgins at the opening of the 46th Parliament in Canberra, making her first speech in 2019, where she took the opportunity to speak about her passion for her diverse local community.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_04: She outlined her vision for ensuring a healthy and educated start to life for the next generation, an environmentally and economically sustainable future for all, lower taxes, and a strong economy.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's that's where the frustration was for me, is that we were giving a lot of advice to you know health ministers at state and federal level.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, I just I like to be a receptacide on the inside, so to speak, with science background, with an evidence-based approach, with an expert-informed opinion.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: So governance, um, when you're running a board of a hospital or of a school, it's all about drawing ideas from the experts.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: But then at the end of the day, the board and the chairman of the board are the ones that make the decisions that enable things to happen.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a bit like that in politics.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: The executive of the government is what ultimately makes the decision.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the ministerial portfolios and the prime minister.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: But they seek their advice from the backbench.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: They seek their advice from people who are representing their community.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: And how hard was it for you to adjust?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I suppose because you'd had such experience in the in the CEO context and you've been on boards, as you say, it's not dissimilar.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_04: Did that prepare you a lot for navigating the politics?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually surpissed by how easy the transition was.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: I used to say to people in medical research, it's 80% content and 20% politics.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in real politics, it's 80% politics and 20% content.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, in my view, everything is political, you know, when you have relationship negotiations.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: So, Katie, you you were just referring to the notion of, you know, it's like a family that makes a decision to change something.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_04: Can you just elaborate a little bit more on that?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_04: That was interesting.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's like you get in a car with your family and you're deciding, do you go to an Italian restaurant or a Japanese restaurant?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um one one day you might say, Look, it's gonna be an Italian restaurant, and someone says, Look, I'm really unhappy with that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's negotiate.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: We go Italian this time and Japanese next time.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that sort of negotiation aspect, that's kind of what politics is.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And people get upset when they hear that you know, not everyone wins all of the time.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: But in fact, that's what politics is about.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so you get politics in families, or you get politics uh in institutions or businesses, and you get politics in politics.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the skills you have to work as part of a team uh is what is the basic premise for politics.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_04: And actually, it's interesting because you obviously had to learn to navigate that quite early on in your career, because medicine by nature is that, and it's about relationships and it's about ensuring that, you know, uh, like my daughter's doing medicine, so I know you have to climb the ladder and you have to be very uh, I suppose, mindful of what is required expectation, listening, understanding, all of those things.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think there's skills you learned early on?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: And and growing up, were there mentors or people that really inspired you in that sense?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: Insight into the value of those relationships or that ability to communicate, which is not for everyone, not everyone can do it.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love being with people.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of a kind of a probably necessary um, you know, characteristic, I think, being being a politician, because you spend a lot of time with people.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I've been brought up in an environment of doctors and nurses and teachers, and that's all about to you know, emulate my father.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: He was, you know, a much loved community doctor.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: The community loved him and he served them by being there for them.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I was one of four kids, uh, two older brothers and a younger sister, and it was a very contested space.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there was a lot of Me too.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up with the same.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: I my father was a doctor and four of us, so I understand you.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And to really, you know, argue your case at the dinner table to get your way.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it was a lot of persuasion that was happening and arguing.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I probably, you know, I went to boarding school uh in year nine, and I remember my brother saying she's not going to survive.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: She's too bumptious.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: So that shaped you.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_04: Definitely.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_04: Boarding school would do that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: That there's no uh tiptoeing, is there?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, you need to learn to get on with others.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think boarding school was a very defining moment for me and and you know, made me question a little bit, you know, how do I influence others and and you know, do it in a way that's kind of brings people together.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I became, you know, I I remember when I was in year 12, I was nominated to be school vice captain and boarding house captain in the same in the same poll, I suppose, and I failed to get either of those.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was nominated to be sports captain and sports vice captain and house captain.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I kept not being nominated by the year older than me because they obviously thought I had some levels.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and eventually I did become the house vice captain, but I remember things being kind of rejected six or seven times before I was given a leadership position, which was you know very um So do you think we learn as much from our failures as we do from our successes?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I I've had as a medical researcher, you get a lot of failures.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's only a I think somewhere between around 10% success rate through medical research projects.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say to people, if it's a good idea, stick with it and it will win through.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so take the feedback and change the idea and improve it.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's a bad idea, throw it out and start again.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So get the feedback, listen to it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's a good idea, you've only failed when you stop trying.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: And clearly, persistence is definitely a trait that I observe in your career.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you couldn't possibly have got where you've got, and also just the reality of for children.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_04: I have children myself and I know what what it requires is, you know, tenacity and persistence and consistency, which is another thing.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that they're innate or do you think they're enculturated, those sort of traits, or is it a combination?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that um I do think these things are pretty innate.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, I think that you can you can learn skills, um, but that sort of innate drive.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I've often been sort of said, look, you you why do you keep pushing so hard?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I say it's a little bit like if you look at the horses in a paddock, you know, there'll be someone who'll be quietly chewing their card and you know, enjoying their hay.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And well, there'll be the frisky ones up the back who have got more energy to so I have been given an abundance of energy.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I often say that I've probably a bit overconfigured for being at home.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Though, you know, being at home with your family is the most joyous, wonderful experience.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I would have been uh a little bit pungent to be at home full time.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_04: I I hear you.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think that's true because I think you can't really um, I suppose when you've got certain traits like you have, but also the energy and the drive, you need to get out into the in into the fray, as I referred to in the introduction.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_04: And and whether it be politics or medicine, I mean, how did medicine and the complexities of those many board roles prepare you for your role as an MP?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think they did?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you mentioned yes, you you developed the ability to communicate clearly, but also to to, you know, I suppose there's tussles along the way.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think three parts to the role I have as a as a member of parliament.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: The first one is a community, serving the community and being a doctor and serving my community perfectly for dealing with people from all sorts of you know, all backgrounds, all sorts of walks of life, and um having different opinions, not necessarily the same as mine, but being there to help them, to listen and to help them.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, running a political campaign is a bit like being a medical researcher where you have an idea, no one hands it to you on a plate.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: You need to bring the team together, you need to um give them a vision, you need to encourage them, um, you need to raise funds, um, you also need to talk to the media.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: All those things are what medical researchers do.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: So those experiences definitely prepared me for running a political campaign.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then being up in Canberra, I always say, is a bit like being in an international conference.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I need to fight for you know the best outcome.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to come together and find common ground.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I've known Lara Carey, a fellow journalist, since we both anxiously walked through the gates to a journalism cadet ship exam.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: We were in our twenties, eager and determined to score one of the minimal spots on the competitive cadetship ladder.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: We both walked nervously and sat the gruelling exam.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_04: Fortunately, we were both successful.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_04: Lara headed to the ABC and I began a Herald's Sun cadet ship and then became a Melbourne Age reporter, and the rest is history.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_04: Time would see us working together in later years when Lara took a studio space in my publishing offices, and it was from there she met her future husband, Ben Cowan.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: We attended their beautiful wedding and have been connected in so many ways.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: But tragically, Ben died suddenly in a paragliding accident a few years ago.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I've watched this incredible woman navigate the complex, challenging roles of mother to three who started Parachutes.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: A charity to help support other young people struggling or suffering loss.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think as a writer, that's where you, you know, the the outpouring and the the working through comes in.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_05: But I don't know whether the navigation or you pick your way through, I think, you know, when you're, and particularly it's it's really interesting being on that trajectory.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_05: I've met lots of people, lots of widows on my past since Ben died.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_05: And the sudden death bit is different you know, there's it's it's actually interesting because in the widows group that I'm part of, there's often an argument or a discussion about which is worse, you know, the sudden death or the long sort of um protracted illness.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: And I think, you know, and they both have they're both awful.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but the unexpectedness of not being able to come to terms with something, not being able to say goodbye.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_05: Not, I mean, literally the last thing I said to my husband was, be back by five, because I've got to hit the road and get back to Melbourne.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_05: And, you know, it was kind of like, and he goes, Love you, back by five, and that was, you know, sort of it.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_05: And and interestingly, you know, my kids were in the pool and didn't get to say goodbye.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_05: And they have developed, you know, more than five years later, this um kind of, I don't even know what you call it, a little tick almost, where they have to say love you before you leave a room, before you get off the phone.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, and it's an and if you don't, there's a huge thing around that.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_05: So, you know, we have all developed sort of coping mechanisms.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but you don't really, yeah, you you you navigate and it changes all the time and it continues to change even today.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_05: It's not like you move on, you just move forward.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the other thing that's important to note is that you do have that resource, which is quite valuable, of being able to tell the story.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that is a real asset in terms of informing, educating, engaging, and communicating with others about what happened to you.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: I personally like whether it's through your eulogy or I'm sure in the widow's group, your ability to communicate and to engage with people is actually something that um speaking to other people who have had loss, they don't always have that.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, I interviewed, although I did interview Natasha Scholl, who had also who was an extraordinary interview, and she used her writing skills in her book, as we discussed.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_04: And she said that was quite cathartic.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think some of your ability to communicate has helped you?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_05: No, it's it's helped to educate because I think there was a sense, and a lot of people said that, you know, you'll be fine, you know, you'll get through this, you'll, you know, and people say it's so great to see you've moved on.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_05: And I get frustrated with that idea because, you know, grief and this sort of grief settles into your bones, and you do get on with life.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_05: Like you don't have a choice, you know, and definitely in my case, my kids didn't give me a choice when I tried to choose otherwise.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and and so you deal with it and you live with it.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_05: And people want to see you happy and want to see that, oh now everything's okay again.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_05: And for them, Ben is not present every day, every minute.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_05: But for us who live without him and who built lives around him, it's just a matter of, you know, he's here every day.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_05: And I've watched my kids grow into people who have gone from kids who saw their dad as the father of a child to teenagers who've asked other questions and sort of realized, oh, he was a person with all of these kind of different attributes they hadn't thought about, to adults who've reflected on their own behavior as children in that relationship and have been hard on themselves sometimes.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_05: And it's moving all the time.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_05: So our relationship with Ben hasn't stopped at all.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that I write and I talk about it to educate other people to make them understand in a gentle way, but what's it like?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_05: Because people are also a bit fascinated.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_05: You know, at the beginning, no one knows what to say.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_05: They bring lots of pastries and bread products.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_05: And in fact, my sister termed the phrase bagel face when people would turn up with bagels and say, I'm so sorry for your loss.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_05: And she'd be like, What's with the bread and the face?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_05: You know, and and you have this, you know, thing when you're going through, particularly in the early days, where you feel guilty for laughing where someone's seeing you.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_05: Because how can you be happy?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_05: How can you, you know, what if they think that I'm not inside falling apart?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_05: So you're being watched in a different way.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_05: And so I guess that I take certain milestone opportunities to tell people, what's it like at this stage?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_05: And remember that it keeps going.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know, it's probably highly irritating to people that I continue to.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_04: No, not at all.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, I think what is important, and that's what I think your skills do give you, is your capacity to comfort others because there is a sense of comfort, people who have gone through or going through.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, there's somebody today that I know who's going through a really tough, tough time as a result of something that happened in her life.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_04: And she speaks very similarly, actually, about the notion of it being ever present and it being something that you live with and it's in it's embedded in your almost in your DNA, becomes part of you.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_04: So I think there's some sort of universality in in talking about grief in that way.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_04: And in that universality, it becomes it gives people a sense of comfort that you don't feel as alone.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's not to say that it's not a lonely journey at times.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_04: But tell me that story.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, I think that's really interesting, you know, that you had tickets to South Africa.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: Can you tell me that little that little story of how you went on your trip and you pursued trying at a very early stage, trying to keep the kids a little stabilized?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_04: And can you tell me that story?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_04: It's really interesting because I think that goes to your tenacity and determination to try in a state of complete grief to push through something.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_05: Ben had been to Africa, he'd done the big safari, he'd done, he had amazing stories about it, always had been somewhere that I wanted to go.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_05: And we'd waited for a point till the kids were sort of old enough to appreciate it, and we had great adventures with the children together.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_05: And um, even on the day of the accident, he had been booking what would be our holiday.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and his so he his accident was in the January, and we were going to go, I think, in the July.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_05: And of course, that didn't happen.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_05: But then the therapist that I was working with, the grief um counsellor, uh, said to me, Why don't you do it?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_05: And I said, I couldn't.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you know, at the end of the day, Ben made me brave.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_05: Um, he was that kind of person who just absolutely embraced life.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_05: And I was the one who went, hang on, hang on.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_05: We got, you know, snacks and what about times for sleeping?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_05: And I so the idea of doing it on my own was just terrifying.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_05: Um and she said to me, you know, if it was a big city or something, I would say don't, but I think it will really do you good.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_05: And so we uh planned this kind of trip and we went to, you know, Kenya and we went to Nairobi and we went to we went on safari and we it was a really amazing adventure, really, because we were in a um a van, the four of us with a driver.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_04: You and your three kids.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so you and your three kids, just to clarify, you you went on that trip after the tragedy in almost in honor of what you felt you needed to do for your for your kids, for yourself, and almost in honor of what Ben had planned.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_04: Is that right?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_05: Is that the well it was, and it was part of because I made them, you know, a couple of promises after Ben died, the kids.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_05: So that the you know, the children were age 13 with my son and 12-year-old twin girls.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_05: And at that time, you know, they were very worried about what was going to happen in all aspects.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_05: And one of the things I promised them that was that we'd still have adventures, and that was very much part of our life and and our marriage and our values.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_05: And so I thought, okay, I'm gonna see if I can do this with them, not on my own, but as the only adult.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_05: And um, you know, we did it I mean fairly safely.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_05: It wasn't like we were wandering around uh Johannesburg or anything on our own.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think that would have been a good idea, but it was a really intense experience.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_05: And it was also a point, it was a year after the accident, and it was a very much as a tribute to our life going on, but also honouring this big adventure that we were going to have.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_05: And I cried most of the way through it.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_05: I have to admit that I was I was not uh and and it was interesting because we were in on New Year's Eve, the kids said to me, We need you back.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_05: We've lost our father, but we've also lost you because I was so deeply in grief and just miserable.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_05: And they said, You have to be happy again.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_05: And so it was at that moment that I promised them, you know.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_05: So Africa was kind of the moment where I said, Okay, I'm gonna, whatever it takes, live in a way that's gonna be a fulfilled life.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think brave is a really good word for you because, and I like the way you say Ben taught you to be brave because you're probably brave innately anyway, but I think that's a really good exemplification of the way that you took what was a really tough thing to do on your own anyway, let alone carrying this incredible parcel of grief that you were managing.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: But maybe do you think there was a catharsis in that in some way?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_05: I've tried to find that.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_05: I don't, I just think it is so incremental, you know, this the journey that I couldn't see that there was, oh, this big thing happened.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_05: I was waiting for that.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_05: And it, I don't think I had that.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_05: But it's interesting talking to people who were surrounded.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_05: So, for instance, one of Ben's business partners tells the story about, I mean, they lost, you know, their their partner, their lead partner, and the person who pushed through everything who taught them what they know um and how to do what they did.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_05: And Jason said he's the advice that his therapist gave was you've got to become comfortable with being uncomfortable.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_05: And so he wrote a list of the things that made him most scared and most uncomfortable, and then went through that list.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_05: And so some of it was swimming in open water and the dark.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_05: And so he went and started swimming at night in the bay.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_05: And he talks about looking up at the sky and talking to Ben during that period.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_05: So everyone did the people around him, really, a lot of people took his death as also a lesson of his life.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_05: What can I learn from this?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_05: And how and how do I deal with you know his loss and how do I make it meaningful?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_05: And how do I actually go forward in a different way?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_04: Well, filmmaker Ling Aang has been documenting her dreams through written records across the span of three years.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_04: Combining journals with her photographs from the conscious world, she brings to life these personal subconscious narratives.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_04: Familiar landmarks turn into the locations of a sci-fi fantasy, recurring themes revolving around her childhood, hedonism, and the afterlife.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_04: A visual artist with over 10 years of experience across a diverse array of international productions, her work is rooted in a documentary language exploring contemporary issues with a strong narrative format.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely, I think in the same way where some of our favorite directors maybe will only release three feature films in a decade or so, you know, where I guess on one hand, concentrating on the one medium can quote unquote lead us to master it.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes we do hit, you know, a mental block where I struggle with trying to express myself through that one medium.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so freeing when I realized that, you know, I could try and experiment with other mediums if I wanted to further express myself in that way, to tell or if not to share other people's stories through other mediums.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, yeah, with my project surrounding lucid dreaming, there's still no camera that can go inside my heads yet to record some of the scenes that we could remember.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what led me into writing.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Writing was never my strong point, but I started developing it as I started writing them every day.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm up to I think 1,200 written accounts since 2018.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's definitely developed.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then from there, you know, wanting to, you know, see that visually on the wall by hand so other people can walk through it, you know, in the same way, I guess, you know, if we wish that people could walk through films, you know, that is also the exploration that we can do through augmented or virtual reality.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_04: It is like I was I was looking at you know, some of the um material that you have created, the notion of journaling your dreams, the bravery of recalling and honoring that memory is actually, I mean, as a writer, I understand how much effort that must take to actually take the time to, and I'm assuming that in order to recall your dreams and journal them, um, you do that pretty much when you wake up, or how do you make sure that what is reality and what is memory?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like often you'll go, did I dream that?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: You know, is that did that actually happen?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_04: Or did I dream it?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or like how do you It's as soon as I wake up, you know, and um it I won't answer phone calls, I can't have any conversations, I have to write them then and there.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sometimes I would, you know, write all the dot points if it was in the middle of the night that I would remember, so I could try to go back to sleep.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then um the next day, if I wanted to kind of flesh it out a little bit more, um, because I would recall some of the details.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, you know, I guess going back onto you know, um, what is memory and then what is reality, I mean, it is is still any any recount is still my perspective.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, it's a lens, isn't it?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, anyway.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that's true.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_04: That's that that is actually true.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I suppose what you're saying is it really almost is immaterial, whether it's a reflection or memory or your lens on that experience.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_04: And your souvenirs of sleep is so just for our listeners, can you just expand a little bit on what that is and how that came to be?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's referencing obviously you honoring your dreams.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: I coined the term souvenirs of sleep after um my first physical installation of the work.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that was in 2019, uh, that was built at my sister and her husband's uh art space, L'Espace.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I took over one of the studios and they asked me what I am going to do in there, and I said, I'll do whatever I want to do in there.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to see what at that point I had 400 uh written accounts, and I wanted to see what did 400 dreams look like across all the walls.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to invite viewers to come in to read the dreams, and I mean to also feel like they could feel comfortable with their vulnerabilities.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's some I mean, recounts that are quite confronting, very private scenes, and I mean, especially kind of as a as a woman, these are not, I guess, usual interpretations into dreaming.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: When I first started examining the world of dreaming a little bit more and going into readings, all the references that were given to me um were from wonderful male writers, but you know, I thought be more curious to see, you know, what could a recount from you know, in the modern day pretense, you know, as a woman uh could be.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that then that led me into my larger installation for NGV Design Week, which was a nod towards the film industry as well.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with you know the early practicing of virtual production.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was fortunate enough to um go to Alex Theatre and experiment um with their virtual production studio that they had taken the chance to turn into during lockdown.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was a ballet studio before that.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then they and then they um built all these LED screens for us to experiment with 3D environments.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it's really quite exciting to see the sort of the things that are coming up in terms of creativity.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I think something that you have tapped is this endless willingness to push out and to explore new mediums.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_04: For example, what you've just outlined in the Alex Theatre just sounds really exciting and interesting to explore.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, do you think we all dream and do you think creativity is linked to our access to the unconscious?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I grew up, my father's a psychiatrist, okay?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: So we grew up like at 12 with him going, and what did you dream last night?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we'd all sit there and talk about our dreams.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_04: It was very unusual upbringing in the sense that there was a very great honouring of dreams as a means of understanding oneself.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_04: So it was just, you know, not your average breakfast off before school.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_04: We'd often, you know, and I remember just being very excited to talk to him about those, those things because often, you know, and obviously it come, you know, he'd come from an understanding with Jungian views of dreams, and there's a whole lot of, as you know, complex psychiatric and and philosophical elements to interpreting dreams.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_04: How many of those constructs do you apply to yourself and what revelations did you encounter on this journey?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: It it's, I mean, I over the last month there's been a lot of heavy rain in my dreams.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you know, I think after the years of understanding and breaking down, um, it's definitely helped me center myself a lot more, treat the people around me way better, uh, because I understood from after waking up and recalling those dreams that those were my feelings surrounding that situation.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then hopefully that then as the next situation would come forward, that I could, you know, detach myself a little bit from applying too much, you know, kind of say negative emotion um before approaching the situation.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_04: So you're saying you can learn from we can learn from our dreams.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_04: Is that is that what you're saying?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_04: And that that helped you, it helped inform your response to things in reality.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think if we were writing a recount of our day-to-day, the same way as we're normally trained, um, to write journals of today I woke up, I went to someone's birthday, I ate this piece of cake, I went to sleep at seven.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: You don't really know how you can't how you felt.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: You would assume that you had a lot of fun at that birthday party.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: But if you dreamt that, you know, there was tidal waves and sharks, I mean, you that's way more interpretive that something is not right.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_04: And actually, the heavy rain in your dreams of the last month, what is what did you determine that was a reflection of?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um mixed between um a lot on my mind, um, especially in and out between the floodings um that's been happening in this country, a combination between, I guess, a lot of the work that I've been trying to concentrate on, um, whilst a lot of the issues, I guess, our country and our world are tackling right now.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, you know, as an artist, kind of have feeling that kind of pressure of you know, trying to make more work that you know is activizing towards um those issues.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've been having a lot of that discussion lately where I feel that you know, a lot of our work can be so metaphorical and very beautiful in that sense, but you know, we have a lot of issues that need urgent attention.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so maybe the work needs to be a bit more urgent.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you so much for listening.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_06: The What I've Learned podcast comes out every Tuesday for more fantastic stories from amazing guests.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_06: Check out the What I've Learned Instagram for more updates.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_06: And as Deb would say, stay tuned, kind, and curious.