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Staying at the Table When We Disagree | Terri Hord Owens · Future Christian

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  Martha Tatarnic (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Martha Tatarnic (00:18) Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. is in conversation with the Reverend Teresa Terri Hord Owens Reverend Hord Owens is the General Minister and President of the Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United States and Canada. She is the first person of colour and second woman to lead the
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  denomination and the first woman of African descent to lead a mainline denomination. Elected in 2017, Reverend Hord Owens was re-elected to a second term as General Minister and President in 2023. Her ministry actively reflects the disciples' priority of being an anti-racist church, being a movement for wholeness, welcoming all to the Lord's table as God has welcomed us. Her exhortation to the church is, let's be the church we say we are. It is in being who we say we are that we actively bear
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  witness to God's limitless love for all. Reverend Hord Owens earned her bachelor's degree from Harvard University and her MDiv from the University of Chicago Divinity School, where she subsequently served as Dean of Students for 12 years. Reverend Hord Owens' resume includes more than 20 years of leadership in corporate America, leading diverse teams in data management. She serves on the National Council of Churches as the vice chair of the governing board and is a member of the World Council
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  of Churches Central Committee. Reverend Hord Owens is married to Walter Owens Jr. They are the proud parents of an adult son W. Mitchell Owens and daughter-in-law Adriana Owens. She is also the joyful grandmother of Zachary Owens. Before we start today's podcast, please take a moment to leave a review, to share Future Christian with a friend, or to connect with Loren or Martha on Instagram. Your support means a lot to us in making this podcast possible. Loren Richmond Jr (02:15) This is Loren
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  Richmond Jr. and today I'm pleased to be joined by the Reverend Terri Hort Owens. Hello, welcome to the show. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (02:23) Thank you, Loren. It's just always a pleasure to have a conversation with you. So thanks for the invitation. Loren Richmond Jr (02:28) Yeah, thank you. I'm looking forward to this conversation. As we were just discussing, we're recording this on the Monday of Holy Week. So I pray and I hope that as you're listening, this will probably be certainly after
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  Holy Week, but I, pray that your Holy Week is fruitful and, and hopeful and, ⁓ you know, not too busy, I guess, as we've already discussed, right? Rev. Terri Hord Owens (02:49) Yeah, exactly, exactly. Our theme for ⁓ the disciples, our Easter offering is, ⁓ on this day love answered. And so I just love the many ways that people have been exegeting that. we should be able to reclaim the power of the resurrection every day, but during this week it's particularly ⁓ close to us and hopefully
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  people are, it's encouraging them and revitalizing them in important ways. Loren Richmond Jr (03:18) Absolutely. Well, you've been on the show before, so maybe just for a refresher for listeners who may not be familiar with you, do you want to share about yourself, your background, faith journey, all that? Rev. Terri Hord Owens (03:29) Sure, ⁓ just briefly, I have been the general minister and president of the Disciples of Christ for almost, it will be nine years in July if you can believe
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  that. Sometimes I still feel like the newbie. ⁓ But prior to that, I was both a local pastor in Downers Grove, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago, and ⁓ the Dean of Students at the University of Chicago Divinity School. Loren Richmond Jr (03:37) Wow. Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (03:53) which I did for like 12 years and prior to that I had a career in information technology as both a consultant and a systems engineer with IBM and I worked for Ernst & Winnie and then lived through the merger
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  with to become Ernst & Young and spent a good you know almost eight years as the head of corporate data management for Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield and went through as we all know the Blue Plan slowly but surely started to consolidate in the planet Indiana. was the original anthem, it was the initiator of that strategy. And so I lived through several due diligence processes as these entities emerged and put their data together. I... I'm a mom, a grandmother, a wife ⁓ of almost 39 years and
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  did my undergraduate work at Harvard in ⁓ government, political science with a minor in African-American studies and did my MDiv at the University of Chicago Divinity School. So places that are still close to my heart. So it's been a joy to be in this role in the church. I'm the second woman to be elected and the first person of color to lead the church. and I believe I'm the first African American woman. or women of African descent to lead any denomination, mainline or otherwise. Watkins of
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  all people is always reminding me of these facts. ⁓ it's, I'm not the last though. There are now other women of color, Hispanic women, Asian women, and just in the last ⁓ maybe two or three years who have been elected to lead some of our mainline denominations. So that is, ⁓ it's an exciting time and grateful for the work that God has given me to do at the Decisive. samples. Loren Richmond Jr (05:42) Absolutely, Sheriff Wood, I'm just thinking again as we're in Holy Week, like, what are you
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  doing now even, you know, or maybe for yourself, what would you offer to pastors or church leaders who are listening this after Holy Week for spiritual practices? Rev. Terri Hord Owens (05:53) Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, my own spiritual practices include ⁓ I do Centering Prayer. which is, there are lots of apps that you can get on your phone to even do that, give you a nice little gong sound or whatever, but I find that just spending a few minutes, usually at the beginning of my day, just in
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  quiet and not asking God for anything, but just the practices that you have a word that's a mantra that you use to kind of keep everything else out of your head so that you can kind of focus. And I find that I'm physically more energized and refreshed when I do that. And then I do, Intercessory Prayer every day. I have a Wednesday Facebook, I call it Wednesday Prayer Live with Terri, on Facebook every Wednesday at noon when I'm not traveling. Unfortunately it won't be ⁓ this week. At noon,
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  we're gonna do an evening prayer across the whole church. I've invited about a dozen local pastors to join me in prayer. This will be gone April 8th at 8 p.m. So probably ⁓ before any of your listeners will have had a chance to listen to it, but the recording will probably still be out there. But intercessory prayer, I do a brief reflection on the lectionary series or whatever those texts are. And so my daily prayer, my daily meditation, and I try to go back to my social media sites and lift up
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  prayer concerns that people have left there and try to do that daily. But I also try to engage in the scripture in some way. And since I'm no longer pastoring a local church, and most of our churches are in the lectionary in some way. I use the lectionary text as my weekly Bible study. So those are the texts that I reflect on every week. And I have a lot of fun, actually. Loren Richmond Jr (07:43) That's great. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (07:49) just sharing maybe 10 minutes across those texts,
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  right? Lifting up something that's in those texts. But those are the things that I think keep me grounded and I try to practice what I preach. I think we need these spiritual practices. We need familiarity with the sacred texts, not in a dogmatic way, but in a way that allows us as followers of Jesus to be both encouraged and equipped by them. There are things that we're called to do. Loren Richmond Jr (08:05) Yes. Yes. Yes. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (08:17) We want to understand unless we know
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  what did Jesus say? know, what's the even the Old Testament? What's the context for God and society and justice as revealed in the Old Testament? Because those are the scriptures that shaped Jesus. So we can't just throw ⁓ Hebrew Bible way because we're New Testament Christians, we have to understand that perspective. So those are my practices and I always tell people start with five minutes. Start with five minutes of prayer just reading a few words of scripture but try to build that habit
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  over time. I don't think we can be effective Christians if we don't understand what the word is saying and are clear about how we're interpreting and trying to live out the word. Loren Richmond Jr (08:43) Mm-hmm. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Terri, can share. I have a Sunday prayer practice where I pray for pastors and I'll say, you're on my prayer list. So I'm glad to pray for you and support. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (09:06) ⁓ thank you. I'm gonna have to return the favor and keep you on my
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  intercessory list, yes. That's right, that's right. Loren Richmond Jr (09:14) Well, we all need prayer, right? We all need prayer. Yeah. So Terri is the author of the book, staying at the table, being the church we say we are. And I imagine, Terri, this is directed at our denomination, the Christian church disciples of Christ. But I think these, this is applicable, right, to the broader church at large. So, ⁓ I think one of things that struck me most about the book is you write about staying
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  at the table. And I think we're really in a time right now in least America where it's easier to leave spaces of disagreement. Like what makes you stay? And then I think conversely, I think we all agree that there are times where it's, it's not a safe space. Like we need to leave. Talk more about those discerning those times. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (09:53) Mm-hmm. All right. You know, you make such a good point that sometimes it is not safe to stay. in ⁓ retrospect, as I look back at the book,
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  I spent more time talking about that, actually. ⁓ And I have lots of conversations with people about that. had a member of our LGBTQ community once say to me, well, you're asking us to sit at the table, but you don't understand how prickly my seat is. Loren Richmond Jr (10:33) Mmm... Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (10:34) And I shared, there's no hierarchy of oppression or discrimination. said, but my seat in particular is not a comfy cushy one all the time either. And the idea of staying at
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  the table really, you know, in John 17, we're always lifting up that text because Jesus says, Lord, make them one. ⁓ But he says, make them one so the world will know that you sent me. Loren Richmond Jr (10:45) sure. Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (11:01) And so that's the reason for our unity not so that we necessarily feel good amongst ourselves But particularly disciples of Christ if we truly say that we're the ones who walk together even when we disagree, right? the that kind of ability to
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  hold intention certain kinds of disagreements or practices or whatever We we confess that Jesus is the Christ son of the living God proclaiming Lord and Savior of the world That's the formulation that we have in our documents Loren Richmond Jr (11:13) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (11:31) Beyond that, we don't try to ⁓ curate any doctrinal formulas or there's no faith statement that you have to sign, et cetera. And I think opening up to the power and the wisdom that other people are
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  given through the Holy Spirit is really important. And so at least learning to listen so that people feel that there is a space in which they can share and communicate and be themselves without being hurt or destroyed. ⁓ Just because you disagree with me, that does not, gives you no right to sanction my destruction by you. So that's an argument for staying at the table. And I think there are lots of times when we feel, I have left in my ⁓ corporate life, I was meeting with our youth leadership
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  summit over the weekend, our high schoolers who are part of a program that higher education leadership ministries runs. Loren Richmond Jr (12:09) Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (12:29) and was saying to them, have to sort of know who you are, what your values are, and what makes you tick. I have left jobs, I have left spaces, because I didn't respect what was going on. If you don't understand something, that's not a reason to leave. think we need to gain understanding and spend time talking
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  with one another. ⁓ if you don't feel respected, or if you don't physically feel safe in a space, then maybe that's not the right congregation for you. Maybe that's not the right... denomination for you, but I really believe that God doesn't hurt people, people hurt people. And that's why our spiritual practices and our knowledge of the text has to be strong enough to help us discern in the various ways in which human beings come together as the body of Christ, whether or not this is a safe
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  space for us. So you can believe certain things and we give you broad latitude there, but Loren Richmond Jr (13:05) Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (13:26) ⁓ The behavior that would hurt another person, I think, is where the community has to have the right to ask you to leave, or you have the right to take yourself out of spaces where you're not comfortable. But I do think, just like we have standards for clergy, right? We have clergy ethics. ⁓ If you're going to be in the space where you're part
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  of the witness we're trying to make to the world, then I think we have the right to hold you accountable for not hurting other people. Loren Richmond Jr (13:43) Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (13:55) and for respecting other people. think those are things that we can hold each other accountable for. So accountability is part of being able to stay at the table ⁓ as well as reaching out and listening and learning. So it's a hard thing and it's a real gift. We always say unity is a gift from God. We
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  have unity, we just have to live into it. Jesus, God has made it possible. But gosh, it's hard. Loren Richmond Jr (14:19) right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (14:22) As a human being, if you're not spiritually grounded, it's even harder because you'll resort to all the organizational things about your committee and your structure and your power. And that's not what God has called us to be, is an organization with structures. He's called us to be a real revelation and manifestation of God's, Jesus'
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  love in the world. And that takes lots of different forms, but people don't come to a church to... know, lots of places where can get a good cup of coffee on Sunday. These days, right? But people want to know, you care about my own flourishing? Do you care that I can eat, that I have a job that pays me enough to take care of my family? Do you care about my own human dignity? That's what people want to know about. And if we show them that this Jesus cares about those things, then we can invite
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  different kinds of conversations and encourage people to stay. Loren Richmond Jr (14:53) Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to ask you, you mentioned biblical literacy, spiritual practices in the book. You talk about these having an impact on staying at the table. Talk more about that. And then how do you think, especially as a denomination, as a tradition, we can emphasize these practices. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (15:39) I start the book because, in fact, think the chapter is like, know,
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  everything begins with what we believe about God. And I think if we ground ourselves in that understanding and just, know, making, you know, God is beyond our knowing and our understanding. And we as Christians who value the thinking part of our faith, right, as much as we value what's in our hearts and spirits. Loren Richmond Jr (15:45) Right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (16:05) have to acknowledge that God is beyond our full understanding and we have to develop a certain kind of humility before
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  God, I think. And if God indeed is limitless and God's love is limitless, then gee, you actually don't get to decide, Loren, ⁓ who God loves and who God doesn't love. ⁓ None of us get to decide that. But if we're not grounded in that kind of spiritual understanding, which then takes us to scripture and we're like, well, Loren Richmond Jr (16:21) Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (16:32) You know, people will say, this is it says this in the Bible. This is an abomination. But if you believe that
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  God's got of limitless love, the only way to read the Bible, I think, is through a lens of love. So how does this text, how do these scriptures connect to the very essence of who God has said God is in the text? ⁓ How does it connect to the love that Jesus proclaims that that emanates from that same God? And so. That spiritual practice in reminding and grounding ourselves in who God is, is first and foremost. Otherwise, we lean into our own human ambition of wanting to be in charge and wanting
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  to, we're going to argue over ⁓ carpets and pews and where the screens are in the church and that sort of thing. But if we're not grounded in those things first, then we do see the church as just another club, another organization that we belong to. And I think at our own church, because we give each other, Loren Richmond Jr (17:14) night. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (17:26) There's no test of fellowship as Campbell and Stone would have said. There's nothing where we say, we've decided that based on
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  this, you don't belong in our community or you can't come to ⁓ the table for the Lord's Supper. We've got to take that welcome, that deep and radical welcome beyond the meal. And we've got to take it to understanding our communities must be these open welcome spaces. Loren Richmond Jr (17:36) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Rev. Terri Hord Owens (17:54) No, we don't invite people in who want to hurt or destroy other people. Your behavior can be cause for you to leave. If you're hurting other people and not
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  listening, I certainly believe that there are ways that we can and should deal with that. But I do think that, and I say it, and William Barber lifts this up in the foreword, my diagnosis of the church is that we are often spiritually dry and biblically illiterate. And because of those things, Loren Richmond Jr (18:19) Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (18:22) We can't operate with this lens of love that God wants us to use. None of us are perfect. all have, God knows there are people that we would
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  choose not to work with or choose not to be around and people that, you know, kind of get on the last nerve as they say. But ⁓ God has called us to be witnesses of how we can work together even when we disagree. But if I'm not grounded spiritually to, you know, the fruit of the spirit, right? That's love, patience. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (18:32) Ha Rev. Terri Hord Owens (18:52) Kindness mercy all of those things that we only get through regular interaction With God, know through the Holy Spirit
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  We're gonna you don't want Terri to show up. You really don't you want a Terri that's been softened and shaped By God's love to be able to respond to the world because Terri on her own I'm telling you is gonna not be afraid to just you know Loren Richmond Jr (19:08) Yes. Yes. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (19:20) They say, cut you with the sword of the tongue or my own personality, I know as I've gotten older, has certainly been shaped through spiritual growth and development. And I think we lack that
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  in too many places and we've got to hold each other accountable for that. I think God can only work when we have that kind of humility and when we're also saying, we have to use this lens of love about everything that we do. How does this reflect God's love for all? Right? Are we restricting? The more exclusive your God is, the more I have questions, the more inclusive God is, the more comfortable I am with where you are because you've come to the decision, I cannot be the one who decides who
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  God loves or what God loves. We have no right. God has said certain things in his word, but we need to default to this limitless God and not try to take on this task of deciding who's inside the box and who's outside. Loren Richmond Jr (20:14) Right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (20:19) So I think our own practices and you know, we've had a couple of different communications consultants work with me when I was first elected and they said, you're the church they know we know of our beautiful
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  statements. You know, I was worshiping at a church that my husband is doing some consulting with this weekend and they have a the Baptist Church. They have a mission statement that says we're disciples. ⁓ We're here to making disciples. of every generation for generations to come. And so we could say we are disciples of Christ, a movement for wholeness in a fragmented world. what does that mean? We can't live into that unless we are grounded in the God who calls us to do these things. Any
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  organization can have a statement and a mission and a vision. And we know all of our words. Loren Richmond Jr (20:50) Hmm. Right. Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (21:12) as the new general minister and president nine years ago, I was like, I'm not sure we need new words. I think we just need to be who we say we are. We say we want to be an anti-racist church. We just need to do and live into those things. We don't need new mantras. We need ⁓ to be who we say we are. Loren Richmond Jr (21:29)
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  I'm thinking about, I imagine you might've seen these news stories and unfortunately it's been in the last, what, last few months, I think around as immigration has been such a painful topic in our nation, especially the treatment of undocumented migrants. But I've seen stories of pastors saying that they would not serve communion to undocumented immigrants, which is frankly just like shocking and heartbreaking to me. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (21:45) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (21:57)
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  Certainly there's been stories of Catholic leaders saying like they would deny ⁓ communion to, I think, like Joe Biden or ex-presidents, which, you know, I'm not a Catholic, so I can't speak for them. You know, I think the open table, as you've said, like this is not our meal, it's God's meal. Certainly you've also alluded to times where like we do need to keep people accountable. I'm thinking of like, if I'm remembering correctly in Matthew where it does talk about boundaries or dare I say it,
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  like church discipline. How do you balance that all out with like recognizing that it's not our table, but also sometimes people are not appropriate. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (22:34) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we deal with this a lot, ⁓ even in our clergy disciplinary process, right? Where we have, you know, clergy ethics, it goes beyond just the definitions we have for sexual harassment or assault to ⁓ just overstepping boundaries in terms of how one uses one's power, failure to keep
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  confidentiality, ⁓ disrespectful kind of conduct. And I think there are... Loren Richmond Jr (22:48) Yeah. Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (23:12) ⁓ And we struggle with this in our own denomination. And I know lots of other denominations are much more legalistic than we are about. You do X, it's boom, ⁓ you're out. I mean, in the Methodist Church for a long time, you know, the idea that there's such a thing called the Book of Discipline, right? And again, not to disparage any of our Christian
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  siblings, but that's a theology that's very different from when you and I are used to. Loren Richmond Jr (23:19) Mm-hmm. Right. Right? Rev. Terri Hord Owens (23:39) ⁓ And that would say you marry a gay couple you're out, right? ⁓ and I think the the the boundary that I hold is is how do you how do you respect other people and are you doing something that harms their flourishing and are you Impeding that person's ability to have a relationship with God. So even if I disagreed with you
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  theologically Loren Richmond Jr (23:43) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (24:04) It's not my place to tell you you're not worthy of receiving the Lord's Supper. ⁓ What I could decide is that I'm not going to give you a position of authority within this body because I've observed behavior. We have collectively observed behavior that makes it difficult. We have to manage these things if we have ⁓ members of a church who are, say, registered sex offenders, right? We have a responsibility to
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  keep people safe. Loren Richmond Jr (24:09) Yeah. Hmm. Yep. Yep. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (24:34) You know, I've referred people to other churches outside my own simply because I knew maybe the congregation was too small and couldn't keep people safe or to allow that person to be active. Everybody who walked through the door would need to know this person is a sex offender. And we can't be so concerned about, I had someone, a retired minister say to me, well, we don't want to their ministry
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  career. And it's like, well. Loren Richmond Jr (24:43) Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (25:03) We have to keep them accountable because they're affecting ministry. Yeah, they're affecting ministry. So if you're affecting the witness that we make as Jesus Christ, if you're hurting the safety or dignity of other human beings, then I think we can take action either to limit your fellowship, but we can certainly limit the amount of authority that you have in the organizational structures that we
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  have around our church. Loren Richmond Jr (25:05) Yeah, that's a wrong answer. Right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (25:31) every denomination and the courts don't even enter into this because they will say you know employment is one thing but who a church recognizes who a denomination recognizes as its ministry is is there that's there our right to do that we have the freedom to do that so i i think we do behavior that affects other people's safety and dignity is certainly something we hold people
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  accountable for Would we withhold baptism? Would we withhold the Lord's Supper from them? ⁓ I don't see that we have really the right to do that. And hopefully by extending that kind of grace that's been so freely extended to us, then people begin to see that our goal is not to keep you from God, right? Our goal is to help you to be accountable to a higher standard for being a part of our community. Loren Richmond Jr (26:16) Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I think, I think
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  for my, for our Methodist friends, right, I think they've updated their book of discipline, thankfully, right, to be more inclusive. But certainly that's a great example. We do not have a book of discipline on the shelf, which is, you know, Rev. Terri Hord Owens (26:33) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and we've and we've in my time we've had to really work to ⁓ to get people to understand that we needed a a more ⁓ detailed and defined ⁓ misconduct policy, right, so that we can
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  identify, know, churches are employers and clergy are employed. So if you're employed by a general ministry, a region or congregation, we have to abide by employment law. But we also have these other sets of guidelines that say Loren Richmond Jr (26:46) Right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (27:12) just because you were ordained doesn't mean that this church has to recognize you. If in fact you have done something that violates the trust of the community, ⁓ then we have the right to
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  say, God bless you, you may practice ministry. We just don't have to give you an official standing within our church because you've done things that have been damaging. And we don't do that. When we do that, it's because you've really damaged a community. And by doing so, Loren Richmond Jr (27:35) Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (27:42) you damage the cause of Christ. Loren Richmond Jr (27:45) Absolutely. Speaking of denominationalism, I do want to ask something that I really appreciated in your
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  book. Did you talk about a love of institutions, superseding a love of the gospel? And I've, I've often joked at like, I bleed the gospel. I don't bleed like a denominational color. Like I bleed gospel red, not your brain. Your brain person could tell me, suppose what, what hex color the disciples. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (27:55) you Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (28:12) red chalice, what that color is. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (28:13) You can't tilt it to the side. Yeah, all those things.
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  Loren Richmond Jr (28:16) But talk more about how do we need to do better so that we're not loving institutions, but we're loving the gospel. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (28:24) And you see it in every part of, and not just even with disciples, because ⁓ we have full communion partnerships with the United Church of Christ. ⁓ All of our general ministers and presidents have always served in the National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches. And every group comes to these tables with a
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  strong sense of identity of who their church is, right? Who their denomination is. Loren Richmond Jr (28:33) Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (28:52) And we discuss the differences in our polity and how we're governed, et cetera. ⁓ And one good example of how institutions have gotten in the way, I think, of the gospel is that one thing that we cannot do at World Council of Churches or National Council of Churches is have the Lord's Supper. Why? Because everybody disagrees about who can receive.
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  Loren Richmond Jr (29:13) Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (29:19) who can serve, who can preside, how the elements are to be blessed. ⁓ And it's a very sad thing because, know, in our church, we don't have any of those. Our kids learn how to preside at communion at camp, right? So it's in Sunday school. And that is always a very painful thing. But I've also witnessed people, not just in our denomination, but in others, who become more concerned about the power or the influence that they have once
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  they Loren Richmond Jr (29:30) Right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (29:49) ⁓ assume a particular role in the institution and therefore become blind to the faults of the institution. We've just gone through several governance changes and there have been some people who have responded ⁓ to the changes as though, they're trying to take away our power. And it's like, whoa, I thought that you were a person that when you got ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (29:59) Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (30:18) you were
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  interested in elevating all of us, including these structures, and that you were open to change to make the gospel more powerful or to improve our ability to be real and relevant. And so if your only concern is what it does to my ministry or my institution or how much money I'm getting from the church-wide funding system, it could be the case. And our forebears gave our general board, general assembly. And most church structures have the ability to decide how we should be organized and what we
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  should do. But too many of us, we've seen what it looks like from a distance and once we get there, we wanna inhabit that same aura that we always saw from afar. And we become kind of blind to the weaknesses of that and what should or should not be. ⁓ And I had a young woman one time ask me, or it was actually a young man, ⁓ so how did you prepare to become a? Loren Richmond Jr (30:59) Yep. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (31:14) the general minister and president. And I said, I never prepared for this.
• 4:12
  I never even in million years thought I'd be in ministry, let alone be the head of my denomination. ⁓ But ministry is not a career ladder that one climbs. And if you're really called, you understand who you are and what you do, the spots could shift, the structure could shift, and you could still see yourself in there somewhere. ⁓ And to be open and honest, Loren Richmond Jr (31:18) Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (31:43) to say, oh, what we're carrying, it's too heavy and it's not
• 4:16
  effective. And we need to join forces over there or local churches where you have multiple churches within a two mile radius who can't afford their building, can't afford to pay a full-time pastor and yet don't wanna come together because this is my church. And I walked down this aisle and my child was baptized in that pool and we're holding on. Loren Richmond Jr (32:03) Right. Right. Yep. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (32:13) to these institutional memories ⁓ more than we want to continue to ask
• 4:20
  ourselves, are we being effective for the gospel? So I've ⁓ watched people climb ladders in the corporate world and was always even turned off by that in the corporate world. And when people arrive in power and are too closely tied to it, it concerns me greatly. And it's one of the things that turns me off about. about certain individuals that I run into. It's like, this is gospel. This is not your career. If you don't see this as, that your call to this is your vocation and not constantly
• 4:24
  trying to ascend a ladder, you've forgotten why we're here. And that's when we've started to reflect too much of the world's priorities. Your gifts will make room for you, right? ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (32:48) Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (33:10) I truly Loren Richmond Jr (33:10) Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (33:11) believe if you the best way you can achieve if that's what you're looking for is applause or success Do what God's called you to do and do it well and that just
• 4:28
  people will be grateful for you for those reasons, you Loren Richmond Jr (33:23) Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for sharing that. I want to shift gears a little bit and ask about there's been so much conversation and in social media and beyond about the so-called ex-vangelical and folks who are deconstructing or leaving more conservative Christian spaces. Myself and many others have felt like, you know, the Christian Church disciples Christ is like a really great home for these kind of
• 4:32
  people. Talk more about Rev. Terri Hord Owens (33:47) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (33:50) how churches, maybe even beyond just like reaching a certain subset, but talk more about how churches can be more welcoming, ⁓ evangelical. I know it's a word that we get scared of saying. Talk more about how we can do a better job of reaching out to folks. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (33:57) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, you know, one of the things that we did at the Louisville General Assembly in 2023 is every night we
• 4:36
  ended with a testimony, I am a disciple, and we invited people who've chosen to be disciples. And I speak about this in the book. It's just because you're third, fourth, fifth generation, sixth generation disciple. It's sort of like the parable that Jesus talks about, the workers, just because. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (34:17) Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (34:30) you've been working in the vineyard longer, your reward isn't any greater and you're not any more holy. ⁓ Because we do that. And so
• 4:40
  that's one thing that we can do is just welcome people and move away from this language of who's been here longer. I've been a member of the denomination for longer. ⁓ The other thing is that we... Loren Richmond Jr (34:35) Yes. Well, then I'll preach. Yes. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (34:53) People will find safe and welcome homes from more conservative spaces. When I was a pastor, we became open and affirming. we had a family who was inviting people from their old church because they had
• 4:44
  basically been excommunicated simply because they had gay children or trans children. And inviting people, ⁓ not holding up ⁓ requirements about what it means to be there. Loren Richmond Jr (35:10) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (35:20) If we just get to know people, let people visit, we're so prone to want to, ⁓ there's a new person. I hope they join. And we're going to put them on X committee once they find out what they like to do and what they're good at. We immediately want to slot
• 4:48
  them into our structures. And sometimes it's just enough to let those people become community. Let those people become part of their community before we... try to fit them into a structure. Let people develop their own relationship with God. ⁓ Having Bible studies or small group discussions where people can just ⁓ meet or talk, ⁓ I think is just as important because we can't, the moment that we start to make ⁓ some sort of requisite behavior be a requirement for being safe in this community,
• 4:52
  then we move people away. Loren Richmond Jr (36:01) Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (36:18) Listening, talking with people, use coffee hour to get to know people, right? ⁓ Use that time to get to know people, use your Bible study and Sunday schools as an opportunity to get to know people. Do work in your community. ⁓ Data shows that younger generations care about what you do, not just about what you say. ⁓ More than just a food pantry, are you advocating for humanitarian ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr
• 4:56
  (36:36) Yes. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (36:46) public policy around living wage and the things that we march and advocate for. People want to separate this idea of evangelism and justice. For me, the work of justice is the best evangelism I can do because what I'm showing to you publicly is that I want you to know about Jesus and the Jesus I follow cares about these things. The Jesus I follow, as I said before, wants you to be able to eat, wants you to be able to have decent and safe housing.
• 5:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (36:48) Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (37:15) wants you to be able to have healthcare. The Jesus I follow wants you to flourish, you and your family. I want your kids to be in a decent school that's not dependent on your zip code or your property value. And so that kind of outward work is just as important as what we do inside our buildings on Sundays, showing people that the work of Jesus extends to their community, I think is an important part of radical
• 5:04
  hospitality. But we gotta get away from being too quick to invite people to become part of our structures, because they don't really care, they don't know or understand. ⁓ And it's like, do we have, if we have 50 people in worship on Sunday, why are 22 of them on the board? It's those sorts of things. And so, we can't get people to work on the board. Well, what are we doing on the board? Why? We have to be willing to explore and examine ourselves carefully, but I really believe that... ⁓ Loren
• 5:08
  Richmond Jr (37:51) Yes, yes, yes. Ha ha ha ha! Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (38:14) Part of making people feel comfortable is giving them a sense that we care about the outside world. Be it our local communities, be it some kind of overseas missions or a justice project. I don't think we're church unless we care about other people. Loren Richmond Jr (38:29) Let me ask you this question too, as someone who, you know, was going to say from the top, it's obvious that you're someone who's worked
• 5:12
  in data, cares about data. I hate to use this word, believes in data. Certainly with you've, you flush that out with Alex and other tools, I think to collect denominational data. There's a lot of, there's a lot of speaking data coming out in recent years showing decline across. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (38:41) you Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (38:55) Christianity in America, the mainline church, our denomination. The data is what it is, broadly speaking, but rather than just get depressed about
• 5:16
  data, what gives you hope about the future of our denomination, the future of the church in America? ⁓ Yeah, what encourages you? Rev. Terri Hord Owens (39:01) Right, right. Mm-hmm. You know, what actually encourages me is that the data can help us really see ourselves for who we are, right? We're no longer a denomination that has 1.5 million people. Loren Richmond Jr (39:20) Mm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (39:25) we're probably less than 500,000. We're just a little less than 3,000
• 5:20
  denominations. ⁓ One of the things that we've learned and we shared at General Board every year for our in-person meeting in the spring and then we have an online one in the fall. But for our in-person meeting in the spring, we put up infographic boards that have charts of some of the data that we've given the congregational reporting. And again, we're bound by the congregations who report. Loren Richmond Jr (39:55) Right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (39:55) We think we've got ⁓ almost 3,000
• 5:24
  congregations that are part of the disciples, but maybe only 16 or 17 hundred of them actually report. Of that number, maybe 50 to 60 percent of them are actually what we will call a connected congregation. A connected congregation is one that either reports or gives to either Loren Richmond Jr (40:07) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (40:20) our unified giving system or one of our special offerings. But of the ones that report, only about half of them actually give. So that tells us a
• 5:28
  lot about the fact that we are disconnected. Congregational polity, we think it's just, we can do whatever we want to do. And we're not doing a good enough job of helping people understand that there's a bigger whole that we are part of and that that bigger whole Loren Richmond Jr (40:26) Hmm. Yeah. Right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (40:46) does a lot of work on your behalf that you wouldn't be able to do alone. And so telling people, for example, that two thirds of our churches worship an
• 5:32
  average of ⁓ 60 people or less on a Sunday, what it's actually done is help those smaller congregations understand, ⁓ I'm kind of the norm. We've compared some data with the United Church of Christ, very similar. And so instead of lamenting our size, Loren Richmond Jr (41:06) Right, right. Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (41:15) I've always, I became a member at a disciples congregation that was over 2,000 people. And when I joined 40 years ago, it was probably one of the fastest growing
• 5:36
  churches in the denomination. My home Baptist church where I grew up, my progressive Baptist church was probably two, 300 people, which would be in today's terms, considered a mega church with the disciples. But I pastored, Loren Richmond Jr (41:41) Right. Certainly, yeah, certainly a large church regardless in American Christianity. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (41:46) Yeah, yeah, right, right. And I pastored a church that was that average, right? 50 to 60 people. And I know what those size
• 5:40
  communities can do, but acknowledging this is who we are. Two thirds of our churches are located in areas that from a census perspective would be designated small town or rural. So we're a small town, small church church. the better, you know, we're about 80 % white, maybe 10%. Loren Richmond Jr (42:10) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (42:15) Black, two ⁓ to three percent Asian Pacific Islanders, six to seven percent Hispanic. And we got to keep looking at those numbers and remind
• 5:44
  ourselves who we are. ⁓ We have 18 different languages that are spoken just within NAPAD, North American, Pacific, and Asian Disciples. So the data simply helps us get a track of trends. We could see since the 70s, the size of the denomination has been getting smaller. That's true for Christendom. If you look at the Pew Research polls, the number of people who affiliate and call themselves religious is getting smaller. ⁓ But people who affiliate with institutions is a very different thing than
• 5:48
  people who feel that they're spiritual or religious. And I think the data also tells us that it is the institution piece that's hurting people, and it's not that people don't want some sort of relevant relationship. with whatever they call holy. They want that. It's just that they're often not finding ⁓ relevant ways in which to engage that. So I've seen some hopeful understandings of just looking at the raw data going, ⁓ so we're not so far off the curve as we thought within our own
• 5:52
  denomination. so we continue to share that data. We're trying, we're putting it online. Loren Richmond Jr (43:33) Yes. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (43:40) We were working on expanding a lot of our sort ad hoc analytic ability, know, trend analysis. I got a person on my staff, Reverend Adam Freberg, who has done doctoral work in like geospatial data analytics. Adam is just phenomenal. His dissertation work was focused on, he ⁓ scanned in like... ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (43:54) Wow. Rev. Terri Hord
• 5:56
  Owens (44:05) 20 some years worth of data for a multitude of denominations and did this kind of analysis. And he and I were talking right after I was first elected about, I was telling him what I was doing and he was what I wanted to do. And he's like, ⁓ this is what I'm doing now. Yes, this is possible. So it's kind of exciting that he's now part of the team making it happen because he was somebody I was talking to and it was just an idea saying we got to do this. But I think data can ground
• 6:00
  you in reality. so that when you're looking at solutions, you have some context for whether or not those solutions are reasonable or doable. So two thirds of our churches are worshiping 50 or 60 people and we're in small towns. So let's be honest with that in terms of the work that we need to do in our communities and what it means even when we try to recruit ministers to go to different locations, right? Bivocational ministry is on the rise. Loren Richmond Jr (44:47) Yeah. Right, right.
• 6:04
  Rev. Terri Hord Owens (45:01) When I was in Divinity School 25 some years ago, I was an anomaly. It was almost like, well, when are you going to quit your job and just be a full-time pastor? As if that was just going to make me more faithful in some kind of way. And we have fewer and fewer churches that can afford to pay a pastor a living wage. There's no nobility in poverty. And as churches, we ought to want to Loren Richmond Jr (45:10) Right, right. yeah, yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (45:24)
• 6:08
  our pastors be able to support themselves and take care of their families. And if we're too small to do that, then we have to make other kinds of decisions. But the data can help us sort of look at ourselves very honestly in the mirror. Loren Richmond Jr (45:37) Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. I appreciate you sharing that. Let's move on to some closing questions I really appreciate your time here already. You're welcome to take these as seriously or not as you'd like to. But if
• 6:12
  you're Pope for a day and you know, what would you want to do with that day? Say you're, you're an influential leader within Christian dumb, within America or the world. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (45:42) Yeah Mm-hmm. gosh, ⁓ there are a couple of things I think I'd want to be able to, and maybe this is a little more magic than God would allow, but be able to pop into as many churches and places of worship as I could. Loren Richmond Jr (46:16) Hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (46:17) But I'd also, in
• 6:16
  terms of, if you're talking about beyond, if I were Pope for a day, of like the whole world, all Christians, I'd want to pull people together and share the Lord's Supper together. Loren Richmond Jr (46:25) Yeah. Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (46:31) and have a real conversation about what grounds us and what unites us. And start there at the table, at the table of the Lord. ⁓ The story in Acts on the road to Emmaus, he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread. And perhaps have an
• 6:20
  opportunity for leaders across all the various Christian traditions to get together and start our conversation at the table. Remind ourselves of the covenant Loren Richmond Jr (46:35) Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (46:59) ⁓ that Jesus established there and calls us to remember every single time we come to the table. I think that that could be a starting place of a lot of good work if we would get back to that. to that central spot and see if there might be one thing. keep
• 6:24
  saying I'd like to see African American community had a million man march. We had the march on Washington in 1963. I'd love to see a million clergy march. just the visual Desmond Tutu shared the story of what happened in the South African Parliament when clergy came to the parliament. They were all fully in their vestments and they were just hundreds and hundreds Loren Richmond Jr (47:29) Hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (47:44) hundreds of them and ⁓ a white member of parliament turned to one of
• 6:28
  his colleagues and said, apartheid is dead because these people see this as holy work. What if we could all come together, doctrine aside, theology aside, and just our love? Loren Richmond Jr (47:52) Hmm. Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (48:05) for Jesus, our belief in Jesus as the Christ, and our call to bear witness to God's limitless love. What if we could agree on something that we would all come together for and show up, show a sign of force in person, but also some unified action across all
• 6:32
  those places to let people know we see this as holy work. It's not just a few of us over here on the left or on the right ⁓ arguing or demanding certain Loren Richmond Jr (48:30) Mm-hmm. Right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (48:35) things, but we as clergy who literally mediate the presence of God, right? What can we do to let the world know we see it as holy work? It made a difference ⁓ in South Africa. Nelson Mandela said if it hadn't been for the action of the World Council of Churches, he's not
• 6:36
  sure that he would have ever been released, but it was the voices of faithful people that were able to shake some of the structures of oppression. ⁓ And I just believe that people need to see more of us saying, this is holy work. We don't see it as politics. We see the benefits to mankind and humankind. We see this as holy work, not just political advocacy. Loren Richmond Jr (49:18) Yeah. Yeah. How about a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life?
• 6:40
  Rev. Terri Hord Owens (49:28) gosh, if not Jesus, I think too, if I could have Howard Thurman and Walter Brueggemann. Yeah. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (49:34) Sure, yeah. And am I thinking Thurman? Who? Perkins. Perkins is the one that just passed, right? John Perkins. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (49:40) Howard Thurman, African American mystic. Yeah, John Perkins is the one who just passed. Howard Thurman ⁓ was really one of ⁓ Dr. King's ⁓ great theological mentors and passed away in the early 80s, I
• 6:44
  think. But ⁓ the word mystic gets assigned to him because he was certainly one for meditation and spiritual practice. And I always wonder, is the fact that, is the use of the word mystic more about people not understanding? Loren Richmond Jr (49:50) Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (50:10) what he was about because he's not really all that. We think mystic is some sort of, you know, higher realm, which to me is not beyond the bounds of Christianity, but ⁓ he was all about reflection, spiritual
• 6:48
  practice, ⁓ and really thinking deeply about the things of God. And every time I read his work, like our past year's Christmas offering, The Work of Christmas, comes from an Advent reflection that he did in a book called The Work of Christmas. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (50:14) Right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (50:40) And yeah, it's he and Walter Brigham is, you know, biblical scholar, but also a really powerful theologian. And his writing about ⁓ prophetic imagination and truth telling have really ⁓
• 6:52
  underscored a lot of my work, particularly in this role. Loren Richmond Jr (51:00) Yeah, I just read both those, Howard Thurman's, Jesus and the Disinherited, and the Prophetic Imagination again in January, they both go well back to back, so to speak. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? Rev. Terri Hord Owens (51:10) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think history will remember either what we did or what we did not do. I think ⁓ history will reflect on these two
• 6:56
  administrations of the current presidents as perhaps some of the most inhumane times and cruel times in human history. And people will want to know, what did you do? Were you silent? Did you speak up? I have a three-year-old grandson and I'm always thinking about what will he say about his grandparents? Loren Richmond Jr (51:20) Hmm. Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (51:46) mom and dad about what we did or are not doing in this time. And I think future generations will want to know, how did you
• 7:00
  let that happen? What did you do or what didn't you do to respond to the erosion of human rights, the erosion of constitutional rights, the ⁓ failure to hold people accountable for unconstitutional action? Loren Richmond Jr (52:06) Mm-hmm. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (52:14) the desire to be, to care more about your elected seat than to do what's right. ⁓ We've abdicated a moral center and not that America is perfect, but we certainly at least shared some aspirational ideals that we've just
• 7:04
  completely, completely violated. But I think future generations will look back and say, what did you do? And if we don't at least try. Loren Richmond Jr (52:20) Yeah. Right, right. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (52:41) who knows what future generations will face, but I don't want people reading in the annals of our denomination's history saying that this general minister and president who has served during these two terms, I was like, God, why? Why me? ⁓ But somebody else said, you're built for this.
• 7:08
  And I was like, I pray that that's true. I certainly, if God intended to get me on my knees, Loren Richmond Jr (52:58) Yeah. Rev. Terri Hord Owens (53:10) it's worked. I'm certainly much more intentional about my spiritual walk than I ever have been because I think we need to stay strong and not get weary for I do believe in due season. We will reap if we don't faint. Loren Richmond Jr (53:27) Yeah, I've already asked you sort of broadly about hopes for the future. Anything else you want to
• 7:12
  share about hope for Christianity future? Rev. Terri Hord Owens (53:33) Yeah. You know, I just really hope that ⁓ this connection that we have with the gospel story in a personal way is something that Christians, that we can all do, that ⁓ we're more committed to being spiritual beings and paying attention to that part of ourselves through prayer and our sacred text as Christians. I think that's our only hope of keeping the gospel relevant. Our churches may not look the same, our
• 7:16
  institutional denominational structures may not look the same, and we may not need the same kind of buildings or organizations to do the work, but I pray that we are more connected ⁓ with a broader movement both within denominations ⁓ and across denominations. We can be very still very insulated and siloed. And I think there's something to be said. Jesus said, make them one so that the world will know that you've sent me. I want people to look at Christianity and say, my God, how do they do
• 7:20
  that? They're all so different. How are they working together for this cause? And look, they came together and people listened and they made this happen. ⁓ But I think that kind of unity, visible unity that we speak about in such aspirational terms is only possible. if we do the investment in our spiritual lives because ⁓ it's not going to come together just as the result of some sort of human organization. It's going to require really the supernatural power and the supernatural love of God.
• 7:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (55:14) Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time and the conversation. ⁓ How can folks get in touch with you? Certainly the denominational website, any other links or ⁓ things you want to share? Rev. Terri Hord Owens (55:22) Sure sure Yeah, I'm I'm on Facebook at Terri Hord Owens and I have a public page Reverend Terri Hord Owens, which if you follow I do ⁓ Intercessory prayer on and a reflection on the lectionary Bible text every week on Wednesdays at noon Easter
• 7:28
  whenever I'm stationary So if you follow that page, then you'll get to know exactly ⁓ What's happening and what I'm doing? And I'm on Instagram at T Horde Owens, I'm on LinkedIn at T Horde Owens, I'm ⁓ on X sparingly at T Horde Owens, but you find me either at Terri Horde Owens or T Horde Owens anywhere. Loren Richmond Jr (56:05) Well, thank you so much again for the conversation. I really appreciate your time. We usually folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. Rev. Terri
• 7:32
  Hord Owens (56:14) Thank you, Loren I appreciate the conversation.