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CLASSIC: Susanna Caroline Matilda: The Colonial Grifter Princess · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians, we are returning to you with some
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: peak ridiculous history. Back in twenty nineteen, we learned the
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: story of someone called Susannah, Caroline, Matilda.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do love three first names. It's always a
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: good time. You may see in the title of this episode.
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  Speaker 2: She was considered a colonial grifter, princess, an elite grifter.
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  Speaker 2: She got up to all kinds of shenanigans, narrowly escaping
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  Speaker 2: death after stealing from the queen. Boy oh boy, she
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: really lived on the edge. And what I love about
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: this one is we are featuring none other than a
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  Speaker 2: friend of the show, a brother, a compatriot in podcast
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Arms named Christopher Hasiotis. This is the guy that we
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: shout out at the end of every episode, so please
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: please check.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: In, folks. He is way smarter than either of us.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: And he's not only here in spirit and this one
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: he's here corporeally, and I am presiding over the proceedings spiritually,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: but not there corporeally. I'm replaced in this episode by
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: our previous and long suffering producer, Casey Pegram for this
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: really cool conversation that I'm bummed that I missed, but
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: y'all are going to benefit from him.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Let's roll the tape. Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeart Radio.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much for tuning in. Casey,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: can we get a little sort of you know, genericly
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Colonial times US in the background? Perfect, We've got a
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: pitch for you today, folks. Have you ever thought about
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: changing your identity? Have you ever felt that you should
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: break free of the bonds of your previous life and
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: become someone else entirely? That's a question we're addressing today.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I'm Ben, my co host nol Is off on adventures. However,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: we have a very special episode for you today with
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: a very special guest, our returning friend of the show.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Thanks for classing up the place yet again, Christopher Hasiotis.
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  Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me. Guys, I can't promise I
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: can fill Nole's chair, but I will do my darnedest.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I am incredibly excited about this. We didn't we We've
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: teased your return for some time over the previous epade.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, set expectations, Thank you very high.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: You know, we asked people to write it in immediately
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: as soon as they heard your voice. But we didn't
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: tell We didn't tell everyone that you would be coming
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: on for this and maybe some other episodes in the future.
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  Speaker 1: But we're quite excited to have you. Thank you so much.
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  Speaker 1: I know you've been traveling a lot recently, right.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, We've got a lot of really great new shows
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: in the works for the iHeart Podcast Network. So listeners,
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: if you big ridiculous history, keep your eyes on your
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: screens and your ears on. I don't know what, Ben,
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: you're better at promoting than I am. What do you say?
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, ears to the wind, Keep.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Your ears to the wind of the podcast realm. There
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: you go.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, keep your eyes peeled, your ears to the ground right.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: Right, and fingertips at the mercy of your soul.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: I like the gravitas the Basically, I just want everyone
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: listening to scroll through their iPhones or their Samsungs or
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: what have you and subscribe to whatever strikes your fancy.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: This is just a long, ridiculous way of saying, yes, Ben,
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: thank you for having me on. I have been up
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: to a lot lately. We're putting together a great slate
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: of new shows coming to the network. All centered around
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: food and travel and stories of humanity and how all
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: those things relate to our lives. I will have a
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: lot more information for you and the listeners of Ridiculous History,
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: probably in the next month or two, about some really
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: really great shows that they can watch out for and
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: hopefully subscribe to and really really dig So in the meantime,
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: I've just got time to sit here in a booth
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: with you, which makes me super joyful.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Oh thank you. Also, of course, we are not diving
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: into Ridiculous History alone. We are joined as always with
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: our super producer, Casey Pegram give it up for them, folks.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Casey aar, why I stop like you are also going
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: to put it in a plaus Q. But Christopher has
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: just given us a delight full, tantalizing, I would say,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: exclusive teaser, because this is the first time we've talked
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: about some of these projects on air.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, on this show. Yeah, that's right, And so.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: We'll say no more. You pay for the whole seat,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: you only need the edge. Check back in in a
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: month or so and we may have we may have
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: some new news for you. However, Christopher, you noticed at
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: the very top of the show we set up the
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: concept of changing one's identity. Have you ever have you
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  Speaker 1: ever thought about this?
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  Speaker 3: I remember when I was in college, I was at
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  Speaker 3: a rock and roll club and someone had taped on
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  Speaker 3: the wall of one of the restrooms, you know, over
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  Speaker 3: all the terrible band stickers and the graffiti and the
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  Speaker 3: cigarette burns and the scars scratched into the wall, someone
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  Speaker 3: had taped something that said, reinvent yourself, start a new life.
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  Speaker 3: And it was basically not quite an anarchist cookbook, but
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  Speaker 3: directions on how to access a manifests on how to
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  Speaker 3: essentially fake your own death and seize a new identity.
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  Speaker 3: And there was just some sort of narrative, well, who
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: is going around spreading these pamphlets around rock and roll
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  Speaker 3: clubs in the late nineties and early two thousands. So
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  Speaker 3: I don't know how many how many people out there
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  Speaker 3: are living under assumed identities. You know, we can't all
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  Speaker 3: be Don Draper. But if there is anywhere that's prime
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  Speaker 3: for reinvention and developing a new persona and reinventing yourself,
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I think the United States of America is like,
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  Speaker 3: that's one of the HotBits for it, right, That's one
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  Speaker 3: of the things that we do. We burst forth from
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  Speaker 3: the shackles of our past. We reinvent ourselves. We set
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  Speaker 3: aside our family histories, we invent new family histories. We
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  Speaker 3: just present ourselves as we hope to be. And a
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  Speaker 3: lot of times people just kind of buy it. That's true,
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  Speaker 3: that's so true. The word of the day I'll introduce
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  Speaker 3: here is a pseudo side. That's the technical term for
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  Speaker 3: faking one's death or intempting to do so. And today's
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  Speaker 3: episode hinges on, yeah, just as you said it, Man,
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  Speaker 3: hinges on a fundamentally American idea. We have a somewhat
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  Speaker 3: romanticized or idealized concept of this, of this purposeful reinvention,
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  Speaker 3: this resurrection, rebirth by design, but we don't often talk
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  Speaker 3: about the real life cases, you know, in which these
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  Speaker 3: sorts of tropes occur. And today's story is about a
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  Speaker 3: person who did just that, who reinvented herself. And that's
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  Speaker 3: the sort of thing that normally is it's praised right
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  Speaker 3: to come from humble beginnings to set yourself up to
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  Speaker 3: a life that's that's grander than anything you could have
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  Speaker 3: imagined or that your parents could have set out for you. Normally,
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  Speaker 3: it's a good thing.
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  Speaker 1: Is that the case here, Well, let's dig into it.
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  Speaker 1: How about that. Let's dig into it and then maybe
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  Speaker 1: at the end you and I can make the call,
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  Speaker 1: and fellow listeners please chime in and let us know
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  Speaker 1: what your take is after you hear the entirety of
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  Speaker 1: the story, because it's important to hear the entirety of
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  Speaker 1: this particular tale. Our story today begins with a woman
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  Speaker 1: named Sarah Wilson. She was born in a Staffordshchild village
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  Speaker 1: in seventeen fifty four, and she was i'd be relatively
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  Speaker 1: well off, not super destitute, because her father was a
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  Speaker 1: professional and he's a bailiff. However, they did have money problems,
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  Speaker 1: and the money problems were such that at the age
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  Speaker 1: of sixteen, Sarah is sent away from home and she
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  Speaker 1: is sent to London to look for employment. This was
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  Speaker 1: not terribly uncommon during this time.
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  Speaker 3: No, it's not. She came from humble beginnings. You know,
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  Speaker 3: it's this West Midlands region of England. It's not super industrialized.
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  Speaker 3: She's looking for more opportunity, like many people do. She
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  Speaker 3: heads to the big city. There are some suggestions maybe
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  Speaker 3: she wasn't just looking for money, Maybe she was off
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  Speaker 3: to seek her own ideas of fortune and fame and
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  Speaker 3: kind of build a name for herself, whatever that might mean.
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  Speaker 3: But she does head to London and within a few
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  Speaker 3: weeks she finds work. She's working as a maid for
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  Speaker 3: a woman named Caroline Vernon, and Caroline Vernon was a
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  Speaker 3: lady in waiting for Queen Charlotte, now Queen Charlotte, Queen
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  Speaker 3: of England, but born in Germany. Spoke German German accent
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  Speaker 3: when she's speaking English. You know, this is the sort
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  Speaker 3: of thing where, looking back three four or five hundred
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  Speaker 3: years from especially the vantage point of the United States,
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  Speaker 3: where royalty is a bit of a novelty, we don't
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  Speaker 3: realize how little national borders and family lineage crisscrossed, and
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  Speaker 3: one may or may not have informed the other. So
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  Speaker 3: you have German nationals who are actually the King of England.
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  Speaker 3: You have people from Austria ruling Greece. You have the
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  Speaker 3: mix of whatever blend of Austro Hungarian Habsburg that situation
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  Speaker 3: ruling over bits and pieces of Europe. So it's sort
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  Speaker 3: of like a dual layer in Europe. And it's I
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  Speaker 3: always like to think that the movies just get it wrong,
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  Speaker 3: because everyone's speaking with the same accent, whether it's an
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  Speaker 3: accurate accent or not, it's generally somewhat uniform, whereas it's
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  Speaker 3: maybe not the case then. But I've fallen down a
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  Speaker 3: rabbit hole just talking about historical specificity.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's a great point, though, and you've picked
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  Speaker 1: the right show to do this on, because it may
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  Speaker 1: be difficult for many of us in twenty nineteen, in
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  Speaker 1: these our modern days, to understand that it was normal
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  Speaker 1: for the rulers of a country to be completely foreign
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  Speaker 1: in most what we would consider completely foreign in today's terms,
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  Speaker 1: and quote unquote qualified for their position entirely due to
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  Speaker 1: their ancestry. And that's that's what happens. There's a feedback
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  Speaker 1: loop around this time and the centuries preceding it, wherein
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  Speaker 1: you know, if you are a member of a powerful family,
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  Speaker 1: you want your children to only marry members of other
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: powerful families, and so things get mixed. I'm not making
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  Speaker 1: an inbreeding joke. I'm just saying that's how the thrones
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  Speaker 1: end up being collected and consolidated and passed around.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's absolutely true. And I will say that this
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  Speaker 3: discussion of languages and accents does come into play a
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  Speaker 3: little later on Sarah Wilson's story.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, nice foreshadowing. Yes, okay, So Sarah quickly ingratiates herself.
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  Speaker 1: She is a people person, a slick talker. At this point,
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  Speaker 1: she is playing the role of the perfect maid as
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  Speaker 1: far as Lady and Waiting Caroline Vernon is concerned.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's working at the Queen's House, which if
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  Speaker 3: you or I were to go to London, or any
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: of the listeners wanted to go to London and go
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: check out the Queen's House, you can't find it because
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: what's now there is Buckingham Palace, a little larger, a
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: little more grand, but that original Queen's House. But that's
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: the region of London we're talking about. It's still, you know,
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  Speaker 3: the seat of royal power.
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  Speaker 1: Right, quite prestigious. Yes, and at the Queen's House where
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  Speaker 1: as you said, Christopher, Buckingham Palace now stands. Sarah frequently
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  Speaker 1: saw the actual Queen, the wife of King George the Third,
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  Speaker 1: and she quickly, in addition to ingratiating herself with the
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  Speaker 1: upper crust of this community, she also familiarized herself intimately
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  Speaker 1: with the scuttle but the gossip, the things that only
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: the maids and the butlers and what Downton Abbey would
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: call the downstairs people were aware of and this got
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: to her. You know what I mean, because we know
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: how human psychology works. It has not changed for many
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  Speaker 1: thousands of years. Happiness is often defining comparative terms. So
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  Speaker 1: she is, she's smart, she's quick witted. She has escaped
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  Speaker 1: her small town and done more than many people in
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: her town would have done. But then she looks around
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  Speaker 1: and she sees, you know, this opulence and these lives
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  Speaker 1: of leisure, and she says, I'm paraphrasing here, why not
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: me where they got that?
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: I ain't got That's right? Yeah, I want to get
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  Speaker 3: me some of that.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: That's that's a quote, that's you exactly. I think that
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: was on some plaque somewhere in some dusty tone. But yeah,
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  Speaker 3: that's the thing. So Sarah Wilson being around royalty, knowing royalty,
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  Speaker 3: knowing the comings and goings of royalty, that wasn't enough
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  Speaker 3: for her. She wanted to get a piece of the action,
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: have a slice for herself, carve out a little nook
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: in that world. Or maybe she just wanted the things
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: that she knew she would never ever have on her
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: own and I mean, this is such a stratified culture
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: at the time. It still is in many ways. But
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: when you come from completely humble backgrounds and you are
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: spending your day around someone who is wearing let's say,
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: a ring or a crown, or today a pair of sneakers,
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: or you know, you drive a car that is essentially
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: worth what your family could make in a decade, and
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: this is just a trinket to this person. That wealth
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: imbalance creates tension, and most people in the world can
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  Speaker 3: handle that. Some people can't. And Sarah Wilson was one
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: of those people. So there was a night when she
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  Speaker 3: was by herself in the Queen's room. She snuck into
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  Speaker 3: a closet, breaks into this cabinet and she takes some jewelry,
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: some dresses, a ring, and a little miniature portrait of
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: Queen Charlotte. So it's like, you know, we don't have
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: an image of what it looks like, but I imagine
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: it's one of those little sort of cameo portraits. So
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: maybe a little silhouette, just something that would be a keepsake,
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: something that a family member of Queen Charlotte would keep
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: and would you know, would refer to to lovingly remember
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: their relative. So she takes all these things for herself.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she thinks it's no big deal. No one's
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: going to find out for Pete's sake. This is the
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Queen of England.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: Right, She's got countless dresses, countless rings, dads of Julia. Yeah.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: But the thing is they were not countless. They were counted,
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: accounted frequently. As is the case with sometimes people of
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: immense wealth, they also are immensely focused on the things
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: that make them wealthy. And so Queen Charlotte was no different.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: She kept fastidious inventory of her inventory. She knew what
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: she had, and she knew when something was missing. So
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: very very very soon after Sarah took these items, they're
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: notice missing. So the Queen says, all right, we don't
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: know who did this. I need someone to keep an
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: eye on.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: I thought that was quite clever too.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, you don't want to just go off
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: and start accusing people willy nilly. That might fly with
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: some royals. Not Queen Charlotte.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Not Queen Charlotte. No, she sets up a surveillance operation
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: and think about how many servants must exist in a
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: royal household. So there's clearly going to be several factions,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: and there's also going to be some servants that she
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: trusts completely and then some that are still a little green,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: and then some that she doesn't really interact with. So
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: we can only imagine that she goes to one of
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: the servants she legitimately trusts someone or some people with
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: whom she spent years and years right, and she asked
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: these people to watch not just the room, but this
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: particular closet. And this is where Sarah Wilson makes her
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: first error.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the criminal returning to the scene of
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: the crime. It's a trope in crime fiction, but that's
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: because it happens. That's human nature. You know, maybe your
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: prime criminal would go for the big score and then
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: never touch that room again, never go back. But Sarah
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: was not a professional criminal. She knew she got away
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: with something once, so she went back to the well again,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: or in this case, the cabinet. Yes, but this time,
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: you know that law and order style stakeout whatever was
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: going on. It worked, and Sarah Wilson was caught in
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: the act of trying to rob Queen Charlotte once again.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: So this is very very very bad news. The way
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: the laws work at the time, Sarah Wilson is charged
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: with theft and violation of the royal privacy.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: And that's serious.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: That is serious. Yeah, that is serious.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: How serious?
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: More so than more so than theft, a violation of
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: the royal privacy carries with it the death sentence.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Oh that's serious.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, So she receives the death sentence, and her original employer,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Lady in waiting Vernon, has not given.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: Up on her. That's Caroline Vernon, right, Yes, that is.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Lady car Lady in waiting, Caroline Vernon, and Caroline takes
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: it upon herself to personally plead to Queen Charlotte please
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: spare Sarah.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: She's made a mistake. But she maybe is a good girl.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: She comes from a good background. She's I like.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Her, and she's so young, right, she's what's how young?
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Sixteen seventeen at this age? So her please work somewhat,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: and her punishment, the death sentence is commuted to what
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: they called transportation.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: That sounds nice, it does, it does.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: So she was just on subways.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so where'd they transport her?
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: They transported her transportation? We should say it was a
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: didn't mean the same thing it means today. Transportation was
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: forcible exile. Oh, it's deportation. Got to be the closest
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: analog we have today, right, So in July seventeen seventy one,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: she is placed on a prison ship and sent to Baltimore, Maryland.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: It's a long transportation, it's a long ride.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: It is long. You wouldn't want to put the Uber
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: bill for that. However, things get worse because when she
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: arrives in the what would become the United States.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: So this is it's seventeen seventy one, who were five
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: years before? Right, everything kind of comes together still.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Just colonies colonies, yep. And she is not put in prison,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: she has not given some sort of state level employment
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: or colonial level employment. She is put up for auction
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: and sold as a slave.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: So she can't just kind of do her own thing
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: in the United States or in what would become the
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: United States. She's just in Maryland, transported there against her will,
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: although maybe willingly because otherwise the other option is to
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: be put to death. But then she's just in servitude.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's looking grim for Sarah. At this point, she's
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: sold to a fellow named W. Dval. He is a
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: planter from Bush Creek, Frederick County.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Do you know what she was doing for mister Devaal.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I have not seen too much detail about that.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: That makes sense though, because I think she wasn't with
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: him for long.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right, She wasn't with him for long. And
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: at this case, you know, it's it's an unpleasant thing
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: to imagine, but physical abuse was prevalent with people who
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: were enslaved in this manner slavery in general. So while
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: we do not have confirmed records of what happened during
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: her time there, we know that she did not spend
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: very long there at all. As you said, Christopher, she
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: sought to improve her situation almost immediately, right she escapes
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: to Virginia lickety split, and she doesn't just go with
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: the clothes on her back. This is the weirdest part
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: of this story.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the sort of thing where our lack
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: of a time machine is just really a bummer, because
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: I want to know the details of how this exactly happened.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: When she escapes, she still has in her possession, which
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: means she brought over with her on her transportation from Britain.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: She still had one of the rings she stole, she
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: still had some dresses, and she still had that miniature
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: portrait of Queen Charlotte.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: But how do you have that?
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, we like to think that
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: systems of power are in place and everyone does everything perfectly,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: but anyone who has ever dealt with let's say, the police,
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: or the local county clerk or the ten and collector whoever. Yeah,
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: sometimes people who are supposed to be doing their jobs,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: you know, they check the wrong box, they forget a comma,
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: and then when you go back to renew, they say, wait,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: you're not even in our system. And you say, but
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: I was in your system. I had a hyphen in
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: my name and you took it out, and they don't
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: know what you're talking about. And then all of a
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: sudden you say, I had a thing of Queen Charlotte
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: and where is her? And no, I promised this dress
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: is mine. And I think that's probably how it happened.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: And the romantic in me, you know, the fan of
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: fiction at least, has this this cinematic moment stuck in
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: my head, which almost certainly didn't happen wherein the queen says,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: and take these garments with you, take them. Hence they
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: are soiled, you know.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: They've been touched by the poor.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they Yes, they've been touched by the boor, which
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: should also be a crime.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: So at this point we although we're gonna be with
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: her for the rest of this story, we kind of
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: say goodbye to Sarah Wilson. We do. We say goodbye
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: to Sarah Wilson, and we say hello to Princess Susannah
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: Caroline Matilda, sister of Queen Charlotte.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Forced into exile in the colonies following a very enigmatic
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: family scandal.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: Oh, you don't want to talk about it. It's too hard,
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: it's impolite. Now, it's royalty. It's not the sort of
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: thing you bring up at a polite dinner conversation in Virginia
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: when you are a princess.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: When you are a princess. And also, it would be
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: violating the privacy of the royal family, and who would
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: want to do that. That's a crime.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: That's terrible.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: So this is strange. First off, the hutsba alone, you know,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: congratulations to Princess Susannah Caroline Matilda. This is the kind
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: of con that is difficult to pull off. However, she
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: has several powerful things working to her advantage. First, as
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: you mentioned, Christopher, she has all this stuff. Probably the
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: most powerful or most impactful of the material possession she
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: has for her new identity will be that miniature portrait
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: because of the sentimental value you mentioned earlier. But also
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: and equally as important here, she has intimate knowledge of
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: life in the royal court.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she's on the other side of an ocean, but
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: she can still talk to people about the goings on
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: at the Queen's house, who's speaking with whom, and who's
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: falling out with whom, and how things are going upstairs
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: and downstairs. And you know, she's presenting herself as Susannah
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: Caroline Matilda, which I should also add of Mecklenburg Strelitz.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes, yes, very important.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the Mecklenburg Strelitz is a Northern German dynasty sort
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: of who you know, Queen Charlotte was part of that
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: family and they've had their bloodline influencing royalty throughout Europe.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: But as the former Sarah Wilson is presenting herself as
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Susannah Caroline Matilda princess, you know, she really harnesses I
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: think a bit of nostalgia for what's going on back
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: to because again, a lot of the people living in
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: the United States or what would become the United States
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: still think of themselves as British subjects as you know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: not as American citizens. To them, the stories of the queens,
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: stories of the king, stories of what's happening in London,
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: those to them are stories from home. And so there
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: is that nostalgia and that yearning. And apparently Princess Susannah
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: really had an easier end with some of the older
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: generation in Virginia, the ones who still thought of themselves
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: as British, as English, and you know, she could tell
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: them what was going on and kind of let them
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: relive there and maybe it's been decades since they were
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: back home.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And there's also this there's also this interesting mechanism that
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: could occur whenever you're working with nostalgia, which is she
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: could mention a name or a title that these people,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: especially the Old Guard, would have been familiar with, and
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: then let them fill in the blanks based on the
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: scant information she actually had. And when she does that,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: they would feel that they were learning something new, but
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: just as importantly, they would feel that they were displaying
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: their knowledge and therefore they were still people with their
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: what do we say, with their ear to the wind,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: their eyes peeled under.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: There, toenails to the grindstone, something like that.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Sure, yes, their fingers and the toenails on the pulse,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: so they would still feel relevant. Having this knowledge, we
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: can also, I think reasonably assume that even for the
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: people who were not the older generation, there was tremendous
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: social cachet to be had in hosting not just a
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: member of English aristocracy, but the sibling of the Queen.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: And you know already again seventeen seventy one, seventeen seventy two.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: As you said, we're just a few years out from
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: the revolutionary war as we call it in this country.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: And this also plays into displays of loyalism.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: Well that's the thing. So, you know, Princess Susannah is
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: telling people she's been sent to the colonies because of
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: some falling out back home. She can't get into the details,
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: but she will soon be restored to her rightful position
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: back home. Ah, yes, and that's you know. So she's
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: at these dinner parties, at these salons, at these social events, mingling,
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: whining and dining, and so people are eager to really
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: buy into the story because if she's telling the truth,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: even if there's doubt in their minds. If she's telling
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: the truth, they are now socially connected to a princess.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: So if she's restored to power, Let's say they need
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: a favor. Let's say they have a son who needs
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: a high paying position at a company. Let's say they
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: need some land grants. Let's say they need to, gosh,
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: I don't know, raise an army for whatever they want
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: to do, whatever that might be. Yeah, you know, old
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: rich people, they got things armies can do.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: That is absolutely true. There is a third advantage that
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: this part of American colonial society sees, and that's you know,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: I can pay you, princess, since we are such very
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: good friends. The typical let's call it an administrative fee,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: not a bribe, but the typical administrative fee that would
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: be expected in order to have myself or a relation
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: of mine granted a position maybe on the court, maybe
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: associated with it somehow, with some government organ or body
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: as soon as you return, and we know that will
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: be soon. So they saw this as an investment in
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: many ways. They were they they were actually giving This
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: is where the con part comes in. They were actually
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: giving Princess Susannah currency.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: They were giving her money cash money, yes, yash money. Yes.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: They speaks just as strongly three hundred years ago as
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: it does today, but also gifts. You know, I imagine
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: places to stay, access to carriages, you know, a nice
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: a nice bedroom for a week, or wardrobe, all that stuff. Here.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: Have a horse, yeah, why not?
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: We've all been in that situation. Here. You look, take
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: this horse.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: This one for me, whichever one, princess, whichever one you
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: want to and you make me feel like one. Chris,
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: take you Christo.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Learned it all from Casey Pegrove. But you know what,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: these sorts of shenanigans are increasingly difficult to pull off
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: over time.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: Over time. And so she went all over the colonies.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: This wasn't just Virginia, this wasn't just Maryland. She was
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: in Georgia, she was in the Carolina. She met the
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: governor of North Carolina. I mean, this is like high level,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: high level stuff. She has access. But people have some questions.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: That's right, and they want to be very careful with
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: the manner in which they poose these questions.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: To someone like Princess Susannah Carolina Matilda's sister to the
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: queen family of Macklenburg. Strelitz nailed it. Not only but
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: she had a couple other aliases too. She also went
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: by the Marquisonis de Walde Grave. She was also known
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: as the Princess of Cronenberg.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: No association with the director that we know of, that
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: we know of, Yes, it's very fair. Yeah. She would
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: use these names on different occasions, and she would, as
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: you said, travel widely. She was meeting tremendously influential people,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: and folks were starting to ask questions because in these
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: circles there would be people who speak German.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if she was supposedly from Germany, raised in Germany, Yeah,
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: how come you don't speak German?
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Right, she refused to perhaps because of the quarrel, yeah.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: Or she was in the new in the new world,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: speaking a new language. But even then she spoke perfect English.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Flawless English.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah you know why, because she was English.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, kiser SoSE a moment for me. Yeah, but yeah,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: people people were saying, well, that's weird because I have
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: been speaking English for decades and decades and decades. I
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: grew up speaking German and I still have a little
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: bit of an accent, you know. What I mean, So
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: why is she flawless with it? And then there was
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: another question that seems very obvious to us in retrospect.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: Well, that's it's the one where everyone thinks, wait a minute,
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: does Queen Charlotte have a sister?
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Right? Why haven't I heard of her?
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: Maybe maybe she's able to turn it around and really
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: play on people's insecurities and say, maybe I wasn't important
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: enough to know about the Queen's sister.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Or maybe you're not. Yeah, maybe you're not as
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: plugged in as you want other people at this dinner
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: party to believe. And so people probably for some time
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: that strategy is effective, and people are reticent to voice
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: their concerns because they don't want to seem to be
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: the odd person out.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: Might I also suggest that maybe men act a little
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: dumb in the presence of someone who might be a princess.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: I think that is an excellent suggestion, having not, to
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: my knowledge at this point in life, interacted with a princess.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: I can't speak from experience, but I feel like that
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: is I feel like that is, unfortunately a very stute observation.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: Men can be dumb no way.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: So you're right, though, that's a good point. That's one
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: that a lot of historians don't talk about.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: Well, it's not necessarily brought up. It's not like all
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: these people who are giving her gifts are described as
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: as suitors particularly, but knowing men, knowing that sort of
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: patriarchal society that was in place at the time, I
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: have to imagine that some of these people who are
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: wealthy landowners in the colonies, meeting a single young princess
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: applying her with gifts might have some motives of marrying
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: into royalty or other motives. Yeah. Absolutely, And men will
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: do dumb things, yes, when they have those motives. Absolutely.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I mean I would say people in general. But in
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: this situation, it's only fair to note that that trend
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: toward thick headedness is probably accelerated in men.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: So the scam didn't hold.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: The scam did not hold because speaking of men, we
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: have to reintroduce a character that briefly appeared earlier in
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: the tale, a mister w Devall, who it turns out,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: is not happy about Sarah Wilson as he knew.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Her, and maybe not that dumb of a man, because eventually,
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: after a couple of years pass he hears a description
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: of this princess. He hears talk and he probably says,
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: oh that wow, a princess in the colonies. That's interesting.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: What does she look like? And they say, this is
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: what she looks like, and he says, I know someone
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: who looks like that, Yes, and it's Sarah Wilson.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: And he has been trying to find this the one
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: that got away. Literally, so it is autumn of seventeen
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: seventy three. Remember, she's been on the runs since seventeen
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: seventy one ish, and.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: He's been looking for her, actually since seventeen seventy one.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: I have here in front of me from the Pennsylvania Gazette,
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: published on October eleventh, seventeen seventy one, an advertisement for
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: a runaway slave. And this is what William Devall wrote
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: in the newspaper back in seventeen seventy one. It took
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: out an ad run away from the subscriber a convict
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: servant maid named Sarah Wilson, but has changed name to
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: Lady Susanna Carolina Matilda, which has made the public believe
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: that she was His Majesty's sister. And here's where we
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: get into the realizing what she looked like she has
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: a blemish in her right eye, black rolled hair, stoops
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: in the shoulders, makes a common practice of writing, and
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: marked her clothes with a crown and a bee. Whosoever
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: secures the said servant woman or takes her home, shall
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: receive five pistols besides all costs and charges. So if
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: you find Sarah Wilson, all your expenses are paid and
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: you get five pistols.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: What a deal.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Five pistols. And I should say, I'm going to applaud
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: myself for reading that, because this is an old timey
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: advertisement from an old timey newspaper, and it's got those
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: medialess's which are such a pain. They look like an
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: f they do look like without the crossbar. They go
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: all the way back to old English, and I'm glad
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: that they're gone. Now, you know the thank thank you
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: movable type. We don't need all those weird looking s's
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: that make everything sound like an Act of Congress.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Act of Congress. Yes, yeah, it's true. Those are a pain.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: And I applaud your recital there, Christopher.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: I applaud Casey for cutting out all of my flubs
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: love flubs. No, well, that's the thing you use a
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: curvys at the end, but not at the beginning. So
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: if it looks like the word flub is flubd, but
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: the word flubs would to us look like flubs.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: And we can only hope that old man Willie D
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: was going through the same process as he was writing
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: this advertisement.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: So I really really hope at some point there's some
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: sort of merchandise out there that people can have a
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: bumper sticker or a a little a little pin, or
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: some just gaudy T shirt they can wear that says,
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: you know, I am a proud, ridiculous historian.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: That's great, Casey, do you like that one?
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: I love that idea historians. Yeah, medial s's for everyone.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Casey on the case. We'll put it to a vote
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: to let us know what you think about these What
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: are they called medial.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: A medial s? Yeah, it's it's also known as a
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: long S because a short S is the short, round
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: one or curvy or you know, just an Sso as
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: we would say.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: I like the I like the depths of resentment that
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: are that are emanating across the tape.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: Hey, Mat, you didn't have to read this, so I
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: might we do have another bit of old timy newspaper
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: right here, I may pass it to you and uh,
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: and you to the test.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: We've created a monster.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: But months monthter month, monthter.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Monthter, that's fun to say.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: I actually we should get back on track. So they're
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: on the hunt.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the word is out. And in addition to publicizing
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: this advertisement and appeal in offering this reward, he sends
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: he being Willie, sends one of his employees, a man
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: named Michael Dalton, to retrieve Sarah. Dalton has you know,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: he has a certain set of skills. Liam Neeson's style
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: we can only assume because he does eventually track the
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: princess down to a plantation in Charleston right after she left,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: so he is hot on her wake, hot on her trail.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: And then he doesn't give up. He follows the clues
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Carmen San Diego style, and he finds her at a
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: neighboring plantation. He captures her. He takes her back to
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: that estate in Bush Creek, Frederick County.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: And that's in Virginia.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that's in Virginia.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: Is that the end of the story. She just gets
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: captured and she goes right back into servitude.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Sometimes things just end I'm kidding.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: I'm kidding, Okay, I I mean it's always home on
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: this pony.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, you still have to take some time to
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: name the pony before before we ride it out, and
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: I would I would advise something heavy on the f's
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: and the s's. But this is not the end of
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: the story, is it, Christopher.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: You know it's not. There's more scamming ahead, as as
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: may not be so surprising with miss Sarah Wilson. So
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Sarah is on the plantation, she's working at this point.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: It's seventeen seventy five, though, but Devall's not at home
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: because he has left the plantation to fight in the
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: militia for the American War of Independence.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, which we now know as the Revolutionary War. And
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: while he is gone, a very very strange qui sentence
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: of hers. This is the kind of thing you can't
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: write in fiction because no one will believe you.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like this seems like a really unsatisfying
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: end to things because it's just so improbable. But according
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: to the historical record, this is what happened. Another either
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: enslaved person or servant girl, also by the name of
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: Sarah Wilson crosses paths with Sarah Wilson that you and
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: I and the listeners now.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: And this is very vague. We want, we want to
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: let all of our fellow listeners know. We are very
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: well aware that this is incredibly vague. Somehow our Sarah Wilson,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: the former princess, is able to switch I guess, bodies
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: or make people confuse the new Sarah Wilson for her.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: And then during this confusion, while her owner is away,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: while this creep the all is away, she escapes and
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: this time she heads north.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the southward direction did not work out so well
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: for her in the past when she was a princess,
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: so she splits. She goes north. She leaves Sarah Wilson
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: the second in place of Sarah Wilson. The first too
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: bad for Sarah Wilson. The second. I guess. We think
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: this is the end of her story, although maybe she
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: was already gonna be on that plantation anyway. And Sarah
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: Juan was like, oh, no, no, that's Sarah Wilson over there.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Are you looking for Sarah Wilson. That's Sarah. Hey, are
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: you named Sarah Wilson, And she says, yeah, that's me.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: And then she's like, well, I'm just gonna walk away
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: as you guys go talk to her. And you know,
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: there's just a lot of this like convincing people and
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: gift of gab. You know, you've got to really be
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: a smooth talker. This reminds me of the story a
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: little bit of that bridge.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Tabor Bridge, right, the two French marshals who
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: decided to con their way across the Daniel.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you and Noel had a really great episode about this,
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: and thanks man. Yeah, you know, ridiculous historians. If you
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: have not listened to that episode, go dig it up.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, we kind of just gave you the surprise ending.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: But it's still a great story regardless. There's all sorts
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: of weird boasting and French chest puffery and you know,
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: almost bombings and Hungarian Confusion and which, by the way,
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: really good band name.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: I think Hungarian Confusion. That is an excellent band name.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: My friend, Yeah, Hungary. I'm hang on, sorry, everybody listening,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna write that down.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: Okay. Ken's actually just filing for an LLC right now, Yes,
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: Gary Revolution. But Sarah Wilson, she is not confused about
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: what she's doing. She heads out of Virginia goes north
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: and at least for the foreseeable future, lives a somewhat
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: normal life. Still has a lot of her money, which
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: she again.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Like, where where is she put it?
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: Where does the money go? Where does she keep it?
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Are there secret bank accounts? Does she have secret pockets?
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Has she literally buried boxes of coin?
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: Maybe she has just like a lot of hair, Yeah,
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: just like a huge head of hair, and there's just
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: like envelopes of money in there. Could be I.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Mean, at the time, it may have been a sound investment.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, some money sewn into the lining of
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: a coat or something like that. Anyway, she's got all
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: this money, and she ends up all the way up
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: in New York. She actually meets a young military man
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: named William Talbot.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Or alternatively Sterling.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: Oh is that right?
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: Well sometimes it differs, it depends on the source. But yeah,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: she meets this. She meets a nice young man and
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: he is a military man. He's an officer in the
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: light Dragoons. And the war transpires. Spoiler alert, This part
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: of the North American continent becomes a country we call
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: the United States today.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: Part of it.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're familiar with its work, and the couple decides
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: to stay in this new country.
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: What are they doing?
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Probably they're avoiding arrest For Sarah, she turns to England,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: but they also she uses her money. Maybe she did this,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: maybe she kept jewelry and then sold the jewelry. That
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: might have happened. But she uses this money that she
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: has acquired to set up her husband as a businessman,
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: and they live, as far as we can tell from
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: the record, they live happily. Ever after. They have a
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: lot of kids, and they set up their residence in
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: the Bowery in New York, which at the time was
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: a quiet, nice neighborhood.
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: Kind of a happy ending for her, it is.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Especially when you consider how close she came to very
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: very terrible things. I don't know. It also reminds me
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: in a way. You remember that Disney film Pinocchio, right stories, So,
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: as a kid, I thought Pinocchio was really cool until
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: one of my friends later on, years and years later,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: pointed out to me that Pinocchio has this horrible lesson
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: for children in terms of morality.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: Tell me about it.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll keep it brief. But Pinocchio from his beginning
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: is told to do the following kind of things or
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: not do these things so that he can ultimately become
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: self actualized and be a real boy. He breaks all
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: of those rules or those commandments or whatever, and then
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: at the end he gets the reward. Anyway, that's true.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: So did Sarah Wilson have a moment? We can tell.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: One thing we can tell that differentiates her from other
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: con artists is that when she got to a good spot,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: she stopped. There are other con artists who just can't
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: give up the game.
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: Well, there was a point though, you know, And this
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: is where I'd like more detail about her life. And
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: I mean this to me seems ripe for some Hollywood
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: tale and I'd love to see this turn into a
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: film and really dig into the story. But there was
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: a time before she met her husband, after she escaped Virginia,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: Oh yes, where she she had this little side escapade.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: And there's not a lot that I could dig up
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: about this, but she she teamed up with this with
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: this criminal who was known by the alias of Tom Bell.
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: He was an irishman also known as Patrick O'Connor. But
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: they they kind of worked together for a while and
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: he introduced himself to people as mister Edward Augustus Montague,
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: a gentleman of fortune and betrothed lover of Princess Susannah
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: Carolina Matilda. Yeah, so, I maybe maybe the princess came
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: back after her her flight from Virginia and before she
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: settled in New York. Maybe there's this this sort of
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: interim of her flirting again with this world of intrigue
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: and all the scams. Yeah, and I don't know much
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: about it.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: We don't know, Like we as species don't know much
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: about this part of her life, which makes it by
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: far one of the most intriguing and fascinating. We don't
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: know much about Patrick O'Connor or his alias Tom Bell,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: but we do know that they did for a brief time.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: She did go into a two person con act, and
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: who knows, maybe they really were betrothed.
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, he was a fairly well
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: known criminal at the time. I mean, this could be
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: the sort of thing where maybe they pulled off one
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: last heist and she got out of the life. It's
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: a sort of you know, like a like a Danny
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: Ocean kind of situation where she teams up with this
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: acclaimed crime guy, she gets what she needs and you
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: know she has her happily ever after.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: You also have to wonder whether the man who ultimately
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: became her husband knew about her stint as a princess
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: knew did she tell him her true, true, true story,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: or did she say like, maybe I'm an orphan and
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: this is my family fortune. Yeah, I love you, I
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: don't want to talk about my past. Let's start a
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: new life together in the Bowery. And then maybe he
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: just went head over heels Christopher. Maybe he was just like, well,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: I'm in love and being a dude, I'm kind of dumb.
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: And I do need some money. I do and I do.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: Need some as you said, cash money.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: Oh speaking of cash money, Benett, Yes, I thought this
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: might be a good way to wrap up because I
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: this is a little off topic, but it's related to
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: some royalty and some cash money. I wanted to get
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: your opinion and ridiculous historians. If you have any advice
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: for me. I got this email from a Nigerian prince.
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, do tell And he's asking for some money?
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: Should I help him out?
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: How much money is he asking for?
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: More than I've got? Oh?
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Okay? Then without having a doctorate, in finance, I would
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: advise you depending on how much. Well, first, how much
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: time do you have.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: I don't have enough time. I'll spoiler alert. Yes I'm
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: not giving this guy any money. But the thing is,
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: you know, we're talking about this weird scam of someone
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: putting themselves forth as royalty, and it sounds like the
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: sort of thing like, oh, this is just a thing
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: that you know, those historical roubs back in the day
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: fell for. It's going on still. I in preparing to
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: come chat with you guys here. I did a little
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: digging and there was a report last year from the
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: Security Services ADT. In twenty eighteen alone, people in the
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: United States fell prey to the Nigerian scams and other
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: sort of email scams like that where people are just
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: asking for money to the tune of more than seven
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars last year alone, and it averaged out
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: to about two one hundred dollars per person.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: So this this scam of royalty, this desire to buy
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: into to a story, this ability to be hoodwinked. You know,
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: I think it's just baked into humanity. It's just who
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: we are, we want to believe, we want to help.
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: And if someone says they're a prince or a princess, hey,
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: why not wow?
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: And it gets our inner foxmoulder. Huh. I want to
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: believe what I was going to advise you to do
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: off the record, again, not being a doctorate, just between you, Casey,
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: me and the millions of us listening.
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: You're not recording this, Casey, right right, this is all
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: off the record, perfect. I just don't want this out
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: in the world. That would be embarrassing.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: I've read accounts of people who essentially scammed the scammers,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: which is on the murky side of unethical pranking.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: What do you talk that is fighting the good fights?
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Well, the idea is, you know, they'll say stuff like, sure,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: you've contacted me, I do have this money. I will
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: give you this information, but first I want to know.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: First you need to prove something in good faith or whatever.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: And I've found situations wherein someone convinced the scammer or
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: someone who knows the scammer to get a tattoo or
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: to write essays about Harry Potter and things of that nature. So,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: if you have the time and the inclination, and you
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: don't feel particularly guilty about trolling people, who are trying
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: to steal from you. Then then I would advise to
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: find I would advise you to find the funniest prank
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: to pull.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: We'll check back in.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: We'll check back in, and perhaps, Christopher, one day you
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: will be known too, as as a genius of the
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: con because one of the most American things about about
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: the way we treat con artists here in the US
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: is that they are often begrudgingly admired, you know what
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: I mean. The idea of this, this slick talking, clever
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: individual violating social norms and getting away with it, it's
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: imprinted into our DNA. And that's why the Providence Rhode
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: Island Gazette and Country Journal in January of seventeen seventy
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: four noted that Sarah Wilson is quote the most surprising
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: genius of the female sex that was ever obliged to
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: visit America. Let's just walk past that blatant, you know,
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: misogyny there. They're basically saying smart for a woman, because
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: they're being jerks. But what they're also doing, and what
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: I think is more important for our purposes here, is
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: they are praising the intelligence of this person. They're saying,
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: this is one of the smartest people in this country.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Too bad they're not a politician or you know, a philanthropist.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: Can't win them all, can't win them all. But I
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: feel like this was a big win for Casey, Nol
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: and Spirit and I to have you over on the show,
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: and we hope that you enjoyed this episode. We want
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: to hear from you. Let us know some of your
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: favorite historical cons other than the Trojan Horse, other than
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: that one, you know, that's that's sort of like going
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: to carry Oka and playing don't Stop Believing.
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: And whatever we want to call this con of you
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: somehow being convinced to let me sit in here and
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: chat with you guys, feel like I've scammed everyone.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Hey, yeah, that's it. Hey, that's a good question. Is
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: your name Christopher, isn't it? I don't know.
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: Casey.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: I believe him. He's just got such a such an
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: amicable air about him.
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: You know, no comment, all right, just call me princess.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, you guys are in on this together. Well,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: here's hoping that I don't get scammed out of millions
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: of dollars. But if I do, I'm glad it was
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: from you. To thank you as always to our super producer,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: Casey Pegram. Thank you to Alex Williams, who composed our track.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you to Gabe, our research associate. Christopher, we often
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: thank you on this show, so it's a little strange
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: that you're here now. I'm really glad to thank you
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: in person. Thanks for coming on, man.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: You're welcome. Thank you for having me Bannon, and thanks
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: for having me ridiculous Historians.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: And stay tuned for our next episode, wherein Christopher and
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: I will explore not a not a con.
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: No, things are going to get a little uh grimeier Gramer,
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: Gramer grammar Grimeer, just a little dark. Well gross, what fun?
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: It's still ridiculous.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Stay tuned
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.