Latest / The Christian Podcast Community / #104 - Why Visitors Feel Invisible At Church | Friendly Is Not Necessarily Welcoming

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#104 - Why Visitors Feel Invisible At Church | Friendly Is Not Necessarily Welcoming · The Christian Podcast Community

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I want you to imagine visiting a church for the first time.
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People smile, shake your hand,
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tell you, we're glad you're here.
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The service is excellent. The preaching is biblical.
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But you leave without having a single meaningful conversation.
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You never get past the weather.
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You're welcomed, but nobody got to know you.
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This episode, we're going to talk about what.
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Is the problem with that, and how do we fix it as believers,
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part of churches? How do we change that whole experience for a visitor?
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Because this is so important. Jeff said,
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and I think he termed this well,
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it's an emergency if that happens.
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It's an emergency.
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This welcome to Gospel Talks Podcast,
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where we help Christians all over the world become more effective.
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in relational evangelism and discipleship.
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I'm George Binocca. With me today is Jeff Musgrave,
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the author and founder of the Exchange.
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And we are excited to be with you.
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Jeff, you look great. You have a new setup there in your office.
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How you doing?
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I kinda like my new step up. Thank you so much.
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Yeah, yeah. looks awesome. we're glad to always be trying to improve the podcast
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for you guys. For those of you that don't watch us up,
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watch us on YouTube. I do have a face for radio myself,
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but Jeff has a face for YouTube.
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And so I think you guys would enjoy watching his feed on YouTube.
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And I would encourage you to go on there at Exchange Message or at Exchange
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Ministries. You could look up those channels.
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And find us, follow us, and we've got it all there.
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Well, let's just jump right in.
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let me just ask ya a question,
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Jeff. The church I was describing in the intro,
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would you consider that a welcoming church?
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Yeah, yeah, I I'm just thinking in terms of you can welcome someone
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in terms of hi, how are you? but you know,
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those are we've we say this in our seminars,
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those words are literally meaningless unless they're followed up by genuine
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care. And so when when we ask the question,
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How are you? and someone answers,
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I'm fine, we really haven't said anything at all.
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It's not only not welcoming, I think it's worse than that.
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I think it's off putting. it
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it I actually think, and I don't know,
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maybe I'm a little different, but I think if I lived in an area and and went
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to visit a church that treated me like that,
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I I doubt that person that church would get a second visit from me.
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I I mean I'm just thinking
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Mm.
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that's not the church for me.
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And you know, you George, you you've done this before.
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You get greeted at Walmart by someone who says,
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Welcome in. And and you know, they don't even look at you.
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They just say in the words they're paid to say.
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And
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Yeah.
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feel very welcome when when I'm greeted that way.
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they're they're saying what they're supposed to say,
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but it's not welcoming. Anna and I are in new churches literally every week,
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and this is
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Again, not nice, but usually I we can tell in about five minutes of walking into that
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church lobby if this is a welcoming church or not.
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Yeah, I I love the word you used,
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care. simply checking the box that you greeted the visitor is not the same
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as caring for the visitor. I think that's a better qualitative goal.
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If people feel like they're a number,
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if people feel like you're going through emotion,
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i it they're not gonna feel care at the other end of that transaction.
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you know, do you really want to know me is a question.
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In every visitor's mind, am I gonna matter here in this church?
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Yeah, and and I think
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that most it it well it depends.
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I mean, whoever's coming in the door,
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they're all they're either a believer looking for a very specific kind
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of church, or often they're an unbeliever or a a a non churchgoer,
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and they're coming in with a sense of
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if you really did know me, you wouldn't like me.
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I mean, that's
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Yeah.
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just the thought that's coming in with their mind and I don't know if I really
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belong here. And, you know, our job is to embrace them and to let them know
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you belong here. This is a place for you.
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Hmm. Yeah, I love that. I guess a question that boggles my mind sometimes is,
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maybe we can play around with this question a little bit.
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Why do you think it's possible for somebody to visit a church full
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of friendly people? Because it there's many people there's many churches that
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consider themselves very friendly,
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but they're bleeding visitors all the time.
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They're they're ri they're able to they're not able to retain very well the people
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that walk through the door.
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Why do you think that people can go to a friendly church and they are genuinely
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friendly, but still feel invisible and then walk away and never come back?
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Yeah, yeah. And and by the way,
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I'm afraid that happens way more often than it should.
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I I don't know if you remember Proverbs eighteen twenty-four.
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in the Key J King James it says a man who would have friends must show himself
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friendly. In the ESV it says it a little differently.
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It's hitting at the same thing.
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A man with many companions may come to ruin.
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And I think
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The the point is that a superficial friendship is really
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not a friendship. you you know,
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we kind of say, was this a friendly church,
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a not friendly church? Well, I greeted people.
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friendly is when we make friends,
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you know, when when we connect relationally.
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Mm, mm. Mm-hmm.
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And
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I I think that those superficial relationships of
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are are actually damaging and they they do ruin.
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It's interesting that the rest of that verse says,
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but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.
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And
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Mm.
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boy, that's that's clearly speaking of Jesus.
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And I don't know about you, but I I want to love like Jesus loves.
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I I want to pursue meaningful connections with the people that I talk to at church.
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Hmm. Yeah, I I I think that's exactly right.
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It's we've said this time and time again here.
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It's the thing that people are craving.
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it's what they want in a church connecting with people.
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you know, one of the realities that I think we could face as a question,
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if we're done with that question,
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anything else you wanna do on that question before I ask you another one?
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I
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I think George, one of the things that happens is we tend to go to church
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and talk to the people we already know and we go home fulfilled because we talk
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to our friends and the assumption is somebody else is gonna connect with that
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visitor. And
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Mm.
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I I feel like it's important for us to recognize
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That that's my responsibility.
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When I see this is the way we say it in our church,
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when I see a a guest alone, that's an emergency.
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And that's that's a if I see it,
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it's a call to me to get involved.
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Mm.
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And
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you know, there there's this axiom that we all talk about.
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if if you want to go to church and kind of remain anonymous,
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then then go to a large church where you can slip in and slip out and no one sees
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you. Well, I
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Mm.
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I I actually think it's an overstatement.
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It's not really about size, but it is about creating a culture that
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is going to relentlessly pursue the people that walk in our doors with love.
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We we want to pursue I I have a friend named Mark Halleck.
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And he says about his church: if you come to Calvary,
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you will be loved. And I think that we need to have that attitude about
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it in our church and then start building
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Mm-hmm.
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the culture that says we're not ever going to just let someone come in without really
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genuinely loving them.
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Hmm. Yeah, I I love that. we we stole something from you and Anna
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in in our church. We we tell guests from the pulpit,
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I tell them, love to meet you afterward and hear your story.
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Yeah, I love that.
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I think that's
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a very powerful tool. I also think if you do a greeting time in your church,
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I don't know if your church does a greeting time,
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but if you do a greeting time,
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telling your church
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congregation during the greeting time you have one job.
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Find the person nobody else is talking to and,
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you know, get to know them. Show them the love of Christ.
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Yeah.
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Well j George, I'll just I I'll just give you a little Anna and I have been in lots
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of churches and we actually do not like greeting times.
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And and the reason
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Mm.
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is because I've sat on the front pew,
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I mean because I'm the speaker,
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I'm gonna be there. And and literally the church can go on for five minutes hugging
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and slapping each other in the back,
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you know. I and and and I'm standing there not talking to a single person.
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Hmm.
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And so you
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if you're gonna have a greeting time.
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then it is imperative that that it that person alone has somebody running there.
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Hm. Yep. I I agree with you.
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They they are a double edged sword.
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you you either do them well or you don't do them well.
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There's not a lot of middle middle ground on a greeting time.
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Well, and I'm not saying
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that you shouldn't do them. I'm just saying that we didn't like them because
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of what actually happened to us.
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Sure, sure. Yeah, and I s I have seen that in churches.
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The visitor standing awkwardly alone,
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everybody else is greeting each other,
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and you're just like, no. so but let me ask a question here.
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Could a church be doing a great job running its Sunday service while doing
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a terrible job connecting with people who attend?
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And why do churches who do a great job can show us that they can do a great job?
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with their Sunday service do a terrible job sometimes with connecting with people.
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Yeah, I think it's interesting,
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George. my observation, and again,
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this is just my observation, 300 and some churches that we've been in the last
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sixteen years. but have having said that,
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usually the people who are thoughtful about organizing their
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service to where it is meaningful and impacting are also thoughtful in terms
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of greeting guests.
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I mean, I I don't know that it is always that way,
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but that's just been our experience.
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but I think that the point that you're making,
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and I think it's important for all of us to remember,
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is that you know, giving people a great experience in the service in terms
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of the what happens from the pulpit,
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it it's primary. I mean, that's that's the main thing people go to church for.
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But connecting with people relationally
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is imperative. It's it's not
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Mm.
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the primary thing. The primary thing is the preaching of the word of
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God and and speaking truth from the pulpit.
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but it connecting with people relationally is imperative.
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They actually go hand in hand.
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And so I we have to be thoughtful about both of them.
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I don't I I'm I don't I've been thinking about what what does the Bible have
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to say about this? And you know when it talks in James 2
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About telling the poor man who's got bad clothing and rags,
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you go sit over there and telling the rich man that's got a ring on his finger,
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you come and sit in this exalted place.
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it I think that what it's actually trying to communicate is a little different than
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what you and I are talking about,
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but it certainly helps us recognize that the way we impact
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people.
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Is not just what we do from the pulpit,
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but what we actually
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Mm.
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talk to them like in it when we're standing in the s section where the chairs
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are.
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Mm.
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so being among the people, that's that's really the church.
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The church
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Mm.
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service is the preacher and the people who are talking from the pulpit.
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Mm.
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but
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the church, that's the people and that's when we need to shine.
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Yeah, I agree with you, which means that being friendly is not just a task.
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It's part of worship. I we've talked about this maybe here,
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but I know I've talked about it as a pastor,
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even with our congregation, our church family,
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is that there is horizontal level of worship.
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There is that vertical that we're all focused on on Sunday morning,
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but there's a horizontal element as well.
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And being friendly and welcoming is not just something your pastor says.
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To increase the numbers in the church,
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hoping visitors will stay, hoping more members will join.
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It is genuinely part of Jesus Christ's gospel ministry.
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it's very, very important. And I guess as we get into why nobody is talking
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to the guest, this is where we I think we should dig into the reasons people fail
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to connect. most Christians, I think,
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are not trying to intentionally ignore visitors.
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they they might be
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simply unaware of the opportunity in front of them.
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They they might not prefer it.
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Why as you've worked with people,
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you were a pastor for thirty years.
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Why don't we talk to people we don't know?
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Why is that so hard?
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well, I think it in some respects it's not just fear,
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it's selfishness. I I have s I see someone over
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Yeah, yeah.
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there I I want to talk to, and I'm
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Mm.
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I'm just putting myself and what I want to do first and foremost.
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I really do believe the key to coming to church is coming to serve.
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Mm.
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in any relationship, look for a need and
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And start meeting that need and you're gonna you're gonna be connected.
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You know, they say a friend in need is a friend in deed.
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you know,
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so if we go to church with the intention of serving,
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looking for needs and then connecting with people,
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it's it's gonna impact the way we do church.
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It's not it's we're not going there to see the people we know.
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We're going there to serve. I mean,
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everybody has a need, and sometimes it's another it's a fellow brother or sister.
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Mm-hmm.
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but if we go there with the intention of meeting needs,
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we're gonna look at church differently.
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Just a pet peeve, don't
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Yes.
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come in at the last minute and expect to be able to help anybody.
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you gotta come
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Yeah.
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early, you gotta stay late, you gotta look for people.
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Yep. I and I know that one steps on some toes,
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but it's so true. The most loving thing Jeff could have done is said that out loud
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because
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Yeah.
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it we all need to hear it. yes,
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cu i I tell people who want to go to lunch with me after church,
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you're gonna get to the restaurant about thirty minutes before me.
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and and honestly, even if I wasn't the pastor,
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I find people in the church
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They're 20 minutes after the service,
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still talking with each other,
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which is just a really good, healthy sign of fellowship.
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I think I don't know why you you I don't know what you think about this,
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Jeff, or what your what your thought is of why this happens.
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I think some churches unintentionally train their people to be spectators.
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And I don't know why, and I don't know how that happened.
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I think it happens unintentionally sometimes.
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Any thoughts on that?
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Yeah. This is interesting. I I actually b believe congregational singing
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can do an awful lot of of change with that if we just get people to
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Mm-hmm.
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genuinely participate and then help
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Mm.
16:02
them to think in terms of I learn best with a pen in my hand.
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I mean when I'm listening to to to to write down what I'm hearing and
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so in all of those cases, I'm actually participating.
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I'm going there with the intention of being impacted.
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with the word of god and i I think we have to help people recognize it just because
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you're sitting down doesn't mean you're not a participant.
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Mm. Yep. Yep. Yeah,
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I think you're right. I watch this and you've probably watched it too.
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There are the people they get there early.
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They do get there early. That's not their problem.
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They find their seat. They put their coat on their seat.
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They put their purse down, their coffee down,
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they go find the donuts. They get in their they make sure they're all situated
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and then they sit there and wait for the service to start.
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And you're wondering, where does the
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personal responsibility Jesus gave us for others fit into that whole picture right
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there.
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Yeah, yeah. Well and and I know there are some cur churches that kind of tried
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to build moments of solemnity into their service where people are kind of getting
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themselves in a frame to to participate well in worship.
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And and I I get that, but you're right.
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In terms of when it's time to be connecting with other people.
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that's that's really what we ought to be doing is thinking in terms of where
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can I find someone that that needs a a brotherly hug.
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I by the way, I'm a hugger. I I go around looking for people that I believe I could
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be a blessing to by giving a hug,
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let them know I'm I'm glad they're there,
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let them know I'm happy to see them.
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Do you know what I mean? And and
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Yep, absolutely.
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you don't have to hug to do that.
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You can shake their hand real big.
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we could always go back to giving a holy ciss.
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Ha.
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th I just assume
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Yeah.
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stay with Hugging. but the the fact is letting people know I am so excited
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to be able to see you. I've missed you.
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I haven't seen you all week and
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Yeah.
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connecting with people.
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Yeah, I think you're right. What's funny is there's a guy in my church that he's
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a really funny guy, but he does want to greet with a holy kiss.
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I am Middle Eastern, but we are in America,
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so it doesn't work here as well.
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Yeah, absolutely. I I actually traveled to Far East Russia
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I I
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and they they did that and yeah it it is certainly not comfortable i from
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a American culture.
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but anyway, I guess the other thing that I've noticed as a pastor is
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one of the things that gets in the way of talking to a stranger and showing love
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and care is we gravitate naturally towards the people we know.
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And that's not a bad thing. I do wonder how we help people recognize that Sunday
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morning isn't just an opportunity to to fellowship with our own friends,
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because I think what can happen in a church,
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Jeff, is
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can develop clicks. We we can become a little hard to get into and break into.
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And people can feel like there's this wall of inner people that we're not allowed
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into and we're all over here on the periphery.
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How how do you how do you show people this is an opportunity to love people
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we haven't met yet? How do you instill that culturally in a church?
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Well, I I think that it starts with leadership and I think that that
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the leaders of the church should be instructed in leaders meetings
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how to do this and and you know when you have leadership that is actively pursuing
19:30
loving on people
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Mm.
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and looking for people who have needs and meeting those needs through relationally
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connecting with them. By the way,
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you're not gonna have a counseling session with someone at church.
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What you're gonna do at church is let them know how much you care for them so that
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maybe the next time you go out to eat with them,
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they want to talk to you about whatever is going on.
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Mm.
19:52
it it's but helping the leadership to see that,
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I I I think one of the things all of us have to do is we have to think.
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We're talking about guests here.
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So these are people that we don't know.
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the the thought process is I'm those guests are gonna leave as quickly as they
20:11
get a chance. And and so if I'm gonna talk to a guest,
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I'm gonna have to do it quickly.
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I have to make a beeline for them.
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I have to purpose my in my mind when this when the last hymn is done,
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I'm I'm headed that way to see that person.
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Mm. Hmm.
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It has to be
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purposeful.
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And then talk to your friends after that because your friends are still gonna
20:32
be there. If if all of us are coming early and staying late so we can help people,
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then my friend's still gonna be there.
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I'll be able to see him later.
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Yep. Yeah, you already have his contact info.
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you know, you and this doesn't I don't know,
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we're we're not picking on anybody.
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I'm not picking on anybody. I you're not picking on anybody,
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but this is spiritual stuff, so it matters.
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And okay, if it's
20:56
It does matter.
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if it's spiritual stuff, then it must be biblical.
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There there must be a blip biblical precedent to this.
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look at the ministry of Jesus Christ,
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for instance. As you've looked at that and you I know you've just finished volume
21:07
two of conversations with Jesus.
21:09
And that's getting ready to hit the print pr print press and all that.
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what stands out to you about the people Jesus chose to engage with?
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How did he show that love to people?
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Because he was a teacher of large crowds,
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but all the time you see people going one on one with Jesus and Jesus going
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one on one with them. What would you point to as some biblical texts that guide
21:29
us in this principle?
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Finding the blind man and and I mean he he didn't wait for the blind man to come
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to him. He went and found him.
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the lame man, the woman at the well,
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all of these people one of the things that just impacts me more than anything else,
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not in John, is when Jesus reaches down and touches the leper.
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I mean that man has probably not been touched physically for decades.
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Mm.
21:56
Mm.
21:57
And
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human touch d just almost you know,
22:01
sending shock waves through him.
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And you just see Jesus reaching and meeting the the genuine needs
22:10
of people in need. And I
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Mm, mm.
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just think if we go to church thinking in terms of I want to go there to meet needs
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and to help people, it's just gonna change the way I I go to church.
22:21
Hmm. Yeah, I I agree with you on that completely.
22:26
I I think there's several instances in Jesus' life where you see him,
22:29
the importance of making people feel welcome.
22:32
He even says to the little children,
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Don't keep them from me. Let them come.
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Let them let
22:37
Yeah.
22:37
them i and I was just listening to a pastor at a at a pastor's appreciation
22:42
luncheon who said there can be a temptation as a pastor to avoid the lobby
22:47
of the church.
22:48
There can be a temptation as a pastor to wanna go right from your study
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to the pulpit, right from the pulpit back to your study to home.
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and I think if that's a temptation for the pastor who's paid to be there,
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who you could say I guess is paid to be friendly,
23:02
how much more a temptation sometimes can it be for us as Christians just
23:05
in the pew to just do our own thing,
23:07
get in, get out, that kind of thing.
23:10
Yeah. Well, and I I I feel like when we are headed to church with that mentality,
23:18
it's it we're not gonna get the same amount of benefit from what God is doing
23:23
in that group and in that service.
23:25
our own selfishness is gonna block us from the blessing.
23:29
So, you know, Jesus said, If if you know these things,
23:32
happy are you if you do them. this is this is actually beneficial to me.
23:38
in spending time when I go home from church having really touched and connected
23:44
with people, I go home encouraged and and infused.
23:48
whereas if I go in and and s you know have that selfishness or inwardness
23:55
of slipping in, slipping out and then I I go home feeling a little like I something
24:00
wasn't right.
24:01
Hmm. Yeah. I'll I'll tell you the other thing that's bugged me,
24:05
Jeff. Sometimes I'll see people gravitate towards
24:12
somebody who's new, but because of their appearance or their have a that maybe
24:19
they're a bit famous, they're well known in an area,
24:22
or they just look wealthy. I hate to say it out loud,
24:26
maybe but it's I'm not gonna beat around it.
24:28
They they're the ones that pulled in that.
24:30
morning with the Benz or the BMW or whatever.
24:33
And I've seen pastors do this to kind of give preferential treatment a little bit.
24:38
It can be a temptation in ministry to people who look like they have money.
24:42
and but sometimes it's not intentional.
24:45
Sometimes it's unintentional when a church does that.
24:48
And I guess more towards the unintentional side,
24:50
how do you think churches can communicate unintentionally that some people are worth
24:54
more of our attention than others?
24:57
Yeah, I I think that it's it's if it is unintentional,
25:03
then the answer is then let's be purposeful.
25:06
So
25:06
Mm.
25:07
when we get ready to go to church,
25:09
I ask God, God help me touch somebody who needs to be touched this morning.
25:16
Mm.
25:16
Use me
25:17
to make a difference in somebody's life.
25:20
And
25:20
Mm.
25:21
if if we are that
25:25
unintentionally I'm missing people,
25:27
then let's start being a little more intentional and purposely looking
25:31
for the the people that need that touch.
25:35
Hm. Yeah. I I think you're right.
25:39
Having purpose. One of my goals on Sunday morning,
25:42
and we have a smaller church right now.
25:44
you know, it's only about a hundred and fifty people,
25:46
but it's like my goal is to go around and shake everybody's hand,
25:51
hug every one of my widows, you know,
25:53
and that kind of thing is is really important because then you're fair,
25:58
right? You're saying
25:59
I'm gonna and you could make it smaller if you're sitting in the pew.
26:02
Maybe you're not like me, the pastor.
26:03
You're gonna try to touch everybody.
26:06
You could say, I'm gonna talk to everybody in my section.
26:09
I'm gonna talk to everybody in my row.
26:10
I'm gonna, you know, talk to everybody in the row in front of me,
26:13
the row behind me, my row. There's lots of ways to kind of cut that up.
26:18
you know, Romans fifteen seven tells us to receive one another as Christ receives us.
26:24
what kind of welcome,
26:28
would a church give to move beyond a handshake,
26:30
actually begin building a relationship if we start to dig down into the details.
26:35
What does it actually look like,
26:36
that care that you're describing?
26:39
Yeah. Anna and I have some folk that we recently connected with and just
26:45
from day one we asked them, hey,
26:48
let's get together sometime this week and and have dinner and just inviting them
26:53
to our home. I mean these y your home is the most powerful communicator that
26:58
I am open.
27:00
To to new friendships, you know.
27:02
Mm.
27:02
If
27:02
if I open my home to them, it it it just is amazing.
27:07
I I've heard of people who go to church having put on dinner,
27:13
knowing that I'm going to invite somebody to come home with me with the intention
27:19
of if there's a guest in that building,
27:21
I'm gonna ask them to come home and go have lunch with us today.
27:25
That that's the most powerful way of letting people know I we want you here.
27:31
We want to make friends with you.
27:33
And and maybe I should just take that a step further.
27:36
I think most pastors are really genuinely desirous to keep
27:43
people. I mean
27:45
Mm-hmm.
27:46
I want to reach people, but I think sometimes as church people,
27:49
it's easy for us to to just think in terms of
27:53
I I need an uplift this week. I need someone to touch me.
27:57
And that's certainly okay to to even ask God,
28:00
God, could you give me a meaningful connection with someone
28:03
Mm.
28:03
who would show me they care. but if we went to church thinking in terms
28:08
of I would love for everyone that I talk to to go home thinking,
28:14
I I really want to come back again next week because of how
28:19
I felt loved. that that would just change the way we behave.
28:24
Yeah, I I agree with you. that is the goal right there is how could I go to church
28:31
and love somebody? And I love that idea.
28:33
May make an extra two or three or whatever amount of places at your table on Sunday
28:40
morning by faith, knowing I'm bringing somebody home with me,
28:44
Lord willing. that is awesome.
28:46
I mean, that that challenges me because
28:50
I feel like sometimes I'm trying to get home Sunday afternoon to make sure
28:54
my sermon is ready for Sunday night.
28:56
And, you know, and I'm just thinking about what I have to accomplish instead
29:01
of thinking about how do I rearrange my life so I can take somebody home from
29:05
church. We can get to know somebody.
29:08
so, well, the conversation was awesome with you,
29:11
Jeff, as always. learned a lot.
29:14
I hope it's a blessing to you guys and our audience.
29:17
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29:18
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