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Winning with Self Directed IRA's - Money You Forgot About · The Capital Shift

• Roger (00:01) Man, Capital Shift audience, you stewarts out there, I have a piece of gold for you today. I get the fortunate benefit of my good friend Greg Herlean's time. Greg runs Horizon Trust and we spend a lot of time together in person four times a year, coming up on six times a year because Greg doesn't know that my wife and I joined the billionaire boardroom. So we're gonna be able to hang out even more, which is cool. GH (00:26) nice. Awesome. Great. Roger (00:29) But Greg, man, the reason why I wanted to bring you to come talk to all the Stewarts today because, you know, being where we are in the calendar, we know that there's a lot of friction, anxiety, downright pain coming for some folks based on how well they may have been doing for themselves in their W Two jobs this year. So knowing that that that's true, we wanted to give you the opportunity to come in and speak to them. about Horizon Trust and what it does. But maybe even more importantly, there's this little hidden twist to the story that we're going to layer in that is an added benefit for those of you just getting started in your investing career who maybe have been coming from one of your historical businesses that you may have left behind some assets that we might be able to do something with. So Greg Herleen, welcome to the Capital Shift Program. Before I let you get started, I have one pressing question that you don't know I'm going to ask you. I think it's the most important one in the whole show. Are you ready? GH (01:34) I'm ready. Roger So Horizon Trust, why don't you quickly for the stewards out there, why don't you talk a little bit about what Horizon Trust is? 'Cause I really glossed over it pretty quickly here in the beginning. GH (03:01) Yeah, no, yeah. look, I I never thought I was going to ever like even like twenty years ago when I did have you know, I started my family, didn't think I'd be doing what I did today. So Horizon Trust Company is an IRA custodian company. Never thought I'd you know, free throws is way more fun, real estate Roger (03:19) Yeah. GH (03:19) specifically flipping and fixing and whole way more fun to talk about. but man, I love what I do today. I started this company sixteen years ago and And we help individuals, educate individuals on how to avoid paying taxes in certain investments, but also how to make better returns and avoid taxes using their IRA in asset classes that are familiar. And I say that because what we don't do is like what you you probably have heard or your parents or parent you know parent grandparents have done, which is we don't manage andor advise in the stock market. For clients that want to have money, a portion in the mu in the market, and I do too, by the way, th you should continue to do whatever you're doing, trading it on your own or using AI to do it, or however you're doing it today. we are a custodian company that educates and helps individuals to move a portion of or all of their retirement funds in with a licensed company like ours, then to allow you to invest where you want. You get to choose real estate, Bitcoin. You know, lent loans, fix and flips, the the menu goes on and on, but you get to choose it on behalf of your IRA, and that's unique because most people don't know they can do this. And so I started a company that does that 16 years ago. We have over 9,000 clients, over 2 billion in assets. still a boutique firm actually in my space, but we love the space that we're in. Roger (04:55) Amen. And you're speaking to a broad, broad cross-section of the listening audience because you basically described the two biggest pain points that we're going to have, both on an ongoing basis, but maybe even more importantly in the calendar year that we're in 2026. There's some people out there probably feeling a little bit of heat underneath their seat because the W-2 is doing a little bit better than maybe they were expecting. So For those somewhat different yet h there's some h homogeneity between those listeners, but within the two groups, within the two groups that you just described, you wanna give a little bit more meat sort of about how Horizon helps there? GH (05:41) Yeah, and and I let me take one step back too. What I'm everything I'm gonna share with you today and what we do, we've been doing it for sixteen years. surprisingly, this is every time we talk to mo almost everybody, they feel like this is the first time they've heard it, or maybe Roger (05:56) Sure. GH (05:56) the second or third time they've heard it. This has been around since the seventies. So this was approved what we're talking about by Congress over fifty years ago. And so This is not something new. And I want to start with that, because I think some people think this is new. it is is definitely is not. and so the what why why and then and then the other thing I'll share with that is just most people don't know they can can do it because their advisors don't teach this part of it. And this is not a hate on advisors, because most people probably shouldn't even do some of these things. If you're not actively engaged in knowing where you're investing and putting your money, then it's probably not for you. Most people I see that are doing podcasts and webinars and engage in their investment you know, investments, this is for them. And so going back to your original question, the for first, you know, there's an opportunity, especially with the W-2 earners, or or any earners really that are looking for opportunities to defer or avoid paying taxes today or even in the future, but let's just talk about today, to establish one of these type of accounts, to to put funds away to get the tax benefits today, and then in turn, and I'll we'll give examples here in a little bit, invest them in a real estate deal. So I'll I'll give a simple example of that. That okay Roger, I jump into an example of just this Roger (07:19) Yeah, for sure. GH (07:20) concept. So I you know there's there's individuals that might wholesale or fix and flip, right? They or lend. Let's just do those three buckets. In all c all of those case scenarios, You can invest your personal money in those investments. And then as you earn income every month, or when you've you flip the property in 30, 60, or six months, those proceeds all go back to you or your LLC and you'll pay some taxes. if you are able to then instead of doing that, establish a trust account with us, an IRA account with us, and put in part of your proceeds. W-2 income proceeds in there, a traditional even account, and get the tax benefit today, but now invest in fix and flip in a wholesale one or lend. 100% of those proceeds will go back into your IRA account and you'll pay nothing in taxes. Zero. Now, if you do it in a traditional account, you'll eventually pay some taxes, down your taxes down the road. but there's also ways of you know, kind of even avoiding some of that, which we can go into a little bit later. So First and foremost, if you don't have one of these accounts that allow you to avoid paying taxes or defer paying taxes on real estate transactions, there's never, you know, in fact, now is probably the best time before the end of the year, actually. And so that's that's probably the first thing I'd say as far as how we help individuals. The other thing I'll share, and and and probably the first thing I share with most people. in my team is think about everywhere you've worked since you've started working. No w however that long. If some of you if you're brand new, you're you know in your twenties, you you only had one job you've left, or if you're my age, maybe you've had two, three, or four, right? Think about everywhere you've worked, and most likely you or your spouse, your significant other, there's a 50% chance that you have an old Pension, retirement account that has very little money. I say very little because I've seen people find hundreds of thousands of dollars that were Roger (09:35) Right. GH (09:36) put a put away for them on their behalf in an old retirement account that you weren't aware of or maybe even forgot about. And so that's one of the first questions I ask people is do you have one of these type of pension plans or retirement accounts from a prior employer? And I I asked that because there's literally over 18 million of these dormant accounts. that people aren't aware of. And I mean eight you could be one of the eighteen million. This isn't like a lottery ticket, one of, you know, whatever the number is. You have to be one of the eighteen million. you know, so that's almost almost 10%. Actually it is over 10% of adults in the United States have one of these accounts. So just think about that for a second too, because if you have that, what we're gonna talk about today, you have the ability to go find it and take control of it. and invest it in real estate, in lending, in if you choose like my son, Bitcoin or whatever those things are that you want to invest in, but but you do have that opportunity and that you could have a little nest egg out there. So that long answered your question, Roger, but but because this is so different than like your typical, you know, fix and flip, I I I need to dive deeper into self directing in in how it works. So so hopefully that answer your question. Roger (10:54) Yes. And thank you, Greg, because I'm around you enough that I even I forget that the average person This is scary. This is un unheard of. This is potentially illegal in their minds, right? Like, GH (11:13) Yeah. Roger (11:14) and we're saying, no, no, wait. It's it's literally one of those like red Toyota syndrome. If you don't shop for a red Toyota, you're not looking for a red Toyota. And then when you shop for one, you look around and like, my God, look at all of these red Toyotas. They're everywhere. Right? And GH (11:31) Yes. Yes. Roger (11:35) So you've gotten countless thousand clients at this point. If someone was like if there's FAQ, if we're in this, like you somebody heard what you just said, and it's probably got their heart going a little bit, their pulse probably up a little bit because it seems too good to be true. So where are the like, okay, but In the in the purview of what we're gonna do, where do you typically in the FAQ hear the butt butt butts from people? GH (12:10) Yeah, w along the way, almost everywhere along along the way when they do their first transaction, because it's just different. And and and so first I I I again i if you've never heard of it, it's been around for fifty years. Number two, your typically your advisor isn't does not necessarily advise on it because they don't get paid on it. And so that's where some of the first stumbling blocks come along where it's like, okay, well I like it. I told my advisor I'm gonna move fifty thousand dollars and my advisor's like, What the F are you gonna do? Why are you doing this? And so and and and they could be right by the way, 'cause I've also had people say, I've heard Greg, he said buy re you know, he he buys real estate, so I'm gonna buy real estate with my IRA, but they have no knowledge. They have no they don't know how to underwrite a deal, don't know how to review a contract. That's not for you either. the What excites me about this and why I'm so passionate about it is most of my peers in relationships are involved in real estate at some form and fashion. So so you just didn't know that you could move like l let me back up. If someone brings you a real estate deal right now, and I'll it will answer your question, Roger. If someone brings you a real estate deal right now and you're maxed out, you have no more money. You only have fifty thousand dollars in savings, and you're like, I can't use it for this last real estate deal. So you can't buy another investment property, or you can't partner with someone on the next deal. And so you're you're tapped out at the moment. there's over a hundred million IRAs in the United States. So over forty percent of Americans actually could do another real estate deal. They just don't know it. And so Roger (13:55) Mm-hmm. GH (13:56) so I find it exciting because all of a sudden we bring the subject up and like, yeah, I do have a an extra You know, I do have a three hundred thousand dollar IRA. I would love to move fifty or hundred and go fix and flip or go lend on a piece of real estate with my IRA. Never knew they could do it. And never probably were ever gonna do it. And so so the the biggest obstacles I find is lack of education on on on you can do it. And then number two, the first time you after you get an account set up with us, which takes about twenty-four to forty-eight hours. And then the money arrives within, you know, ten days into your account with us. Once it's there, the first obstacle I've seen people run into is is it's just different. Now they have to do their own underwriting, look at the contract, make sure it's titled right. Now we help we help with every step of the way. This is why we're unique, I feel like, compared to my competitors. But there's more activity. Instead of you know, when you talk to your financial advisor, like, hey, look, he's gonna ask you, you know, like when do you plan on retiring? What's your risk tolerance on the scale of one to ten, right? They ask you this three f then all of a sudden your money's invested, right? This is a little bit more. You're gonna do some due diligence. But th frankly, what's great about today, some of the obstacles you might be concerned about, or the ne you know, if this is like, I don't know, if this is for me, you can use AI. Now it's like, okay, well, now I can re use AI to underwrite, you know, the contract to make sure it's you know, it's clean and it's how I want it. And so So today there's like a cliff notes, you know, a cheat code on on being able to do underwriting. and so Roger, I I I don't the naysayer it's more of it's just different. But you and I both Roger (15:39) Mm-hmm. GH (15:40) know like, you know, you know, ch change is a constant, but it but, you know, it is also the hardest thing. When you gotta change your routine or change how you do things in your family, it's it is gonna be your biggest obstacle. But once you do it and participate in it, it's exciting. And then I start seeing people do and invest in all kinds of fun different things. Roger (16:02) For sure. And I hate to say it feels like free money because that's not entirely fair. But at the same time, if you've gotten a match from an employer that you no longer work for and you've not done anything with that money, what's the likelihood that it's really grown? So why not give it a shot? Because that money is not doing anything really. If it's not making any money, it's losing money. So Let's at least get ourselves out of the losing money scenario and get it back to a place where. And to me, I guess, Greg, what I would say to considering the Stuart community that we're talking about, there's a group of these folks who have saved enough, but not exactly enough. And GH (16:46) Mm-hmm. Roger (16:48) it's that extra amount that is the limiting factor in them getting started. So for me, what I'm hoping that that listener is hearing right now is like, whoa, wait a minute. I have one of those. And that added with this together might mean that I don't have to wait anymore because here's the next piece of this. This is what really is interesting to me, Greg. Okay, because you get to watch where the self-directed money goes based on market condition. Okay. GH (17:20) Mm-hmm. Roger (17:21) So I just got this light bulb turned on, thanks to you. Where are a lot of people when they get to like, where's the first place they want to go take their money? What asset class is always the first thing that they're asking you about these days? GH (17:36) Well it's almost always some real estate. I mean real estate's so broad, I can give you specifics, but real estate is is almost always. Now there was a glimpse in there where the biggest question I got was Bitcoin. Now that's faded, right? That was like two couple Roger (17:52) Yeah. Yeah. GH (17:53) years ago. that happened for about six months. but it is it is almost always some variation of real estate. That is what people know and they like and they understand. Roger (18:05) Yeah. GH (18:05) It's easy for them to understand and even when the market like we've seen the last couple of years hasn't been great. But people understand when it's not great, your IRA might own an asset, but it's getting in some income, rental income might have to hold it a little longer. But it it's it they understand it rather than stock, right? Where like Elon Musk can like like you I remember when he he smoked a marijuana joint with Joe Rogan. Roger (18:31) Joe Rogan. GH (18:32) Right? Roger (18:32) Yeah. GH (18:33) And and the stock plummeted the next day. Like those and or Donald Trump says something, right? We see it every day, right? And so you're at the w you know, and obviously there's there's, you know, you you you can play the long game in the market too and the indexes. I I mean I understand it pretty you know well enough. But what I've chosen for me on majority of my funds, and so same with my clients, is no one cares more about your money than you do, including me. Roger (18:57) Hundred percent. GH (18:58) So invest in what you know and who you know. Like I'd rather invest Roger (19:01) IRP. GH (19:02) in someone I know and then I can call them up and be like, what the F? Like, let's sell this or make the payment. You know, and some people aren't comfortable with that. And again, and that's why I said this is not for everyone. But hopefully the light bulb turns on that this IRA subject that I began, you know, 20 years ago that I thought was so boring is the most exciting thing that I know of. And I know I'm s I'm I'm biased, but it Because it's new, people don't know they can do it. And because there's over $17 trillion sitting in a hundred million IRA accounts in the United States, it's such an opportunity. So when you're looking to buy that next deal, you can go talk to your buddy that has an IRA. And together, you can go get that first deal that you didn't think you could do because your buddy only had X dollars, but now he's got an IRA. So he's got a hundred thousand, you got a hundred thousand. Now all of a sudden you're the door opens to more opportunity to scale, to do bigger deals. Roger (19:57) Yeah. We what we're really hoping is stewards come in, they take the capital readiness index, they get their score, and then they find other people in the community that have a similar score because the idea is to try to work around the compass and say, Okay, we're both in evaluate phase. We scored in the fifties. I have a tax burden that I'm trying to deal with. You have an income desire that you'd like to try to deal with. We can probably buy something bigger together that would give us both benefit and make us better than if we go to do this on our own. This gives you the vehicle to then take everything that we've given people the opportunity to do to get together and then now put themselves together into real operating relationships where they can actually go do the thing. I can't wait to see within the collective when we start. getting these success stories of people who have either individually made a conversion to an IRA and made their first purchase. Or to me, the Holy Grail is what you're talking about, where we get two or more people together to want to go in with their IRAs. We also set up fractionals so that they could do that if they want to use income to do it as well. But what we're trying to do is literally, Greg, set the table for people that whichever way you want to get going. You're gonna have a way to get this done and do it within the safe confines of RealWise Collective where we can learn together. As opposed to what many of the listeners of this program have suffered through up until this point, is some guru gets a hold of them and wants to sell them $15,000 consulting package. And ultimately they don't ever get anything done because it's a lot of vaporware. So GH (21:50) Yeah, I mean well look you you're that's Raj, you you even, you know, our relationship and the way you've you know, we prepared for today, you're you you're trying to eliminate the roadblocks and and the and I wish I had that, right? Twenty when we all started, we all wish we had less roadblocks. We're gonna always have roadblocks, I understand that, but some of these things can be overwhelming. And so if you can if you can you know, like for example, we're talking about money, taxes can be overwhelming. finding money. I mean when I first started that was so over that was the hardest part. And so Roger (22:26) For sure. GH (22:26) if if you're able to kind of put together or help alleviate those roadblocks or or make them smaller, what you do for your community, I mean that's that's powerful. And so and you just you know, and then you take these tools and and you find out what's the right fit for you. So so I love it. Roger (22:44) That's all we can do is give the people the opportunity. They have to go on the journey of self-discovery, but nothing better than happening on a path that seems like it was custom made for you. And w every time you turn a different corner and you have a new question, the people who built the path for you have created a new way station for you that gives you what you need in that moment. It's really, you know, the people that we're we're talking to, that's what they do for a living too. Right. So they're solving big problems for their clients. There's a lot of stakeholders that are involved in the solutions that they build. Frankly, most of the people that they're buying the product from don't understand half of what it does. So if I can just GH (23:26) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Roger (23:27) do the same thing for this community when it comes to what we're talking about, then I've really just replicated the same value proposition that each of them are giving to their clients, which is a win for us because game recognizes game. And when you see somebody doing Things from a place of credibility. It allows us the opportunity to move even more quickly, which we're building momentum here within the the the RealWise Collective community. And it's pieces of content like this, Greg, that really are largely drawing interest because people are recognizing that, like, yeah, I have that problem. And no, I don't really know exactly how to solve it. And yes, I could go to Gemini and ask a question, claud whichever one. And have it tell me what I might do. But this group of people is more skeptical of those answers than anybody. Because they're the ones having to deal with tools GH (24:17) Yeah. Roger (24:20) themselves on a day in and day out basis. So it's just the way it works. Talk a little bit, Greg. I think the I'm trying to think through what they might want to know about. Talk through like what's the cost structure involved with executing on some of the things that we're talking about. GH (24:35) Yeah, so at Horizon Trust Company, our first year fee is six ninety-five to get an account set up. That's your setup, your annual, everything included is is in year one is six ninety-five. And then every year thereafter, it's our normal fee schedule. It's a it's a it's a laddering fee schedule, meaning it's based upon the asset value. And so the average fee schedule I would say is between fifty and seventy basis points. So but So if you don't know what basis points is, 100 basis points is 1%. So you're typically somewhere between a half a percent and three quarters of a percent. in and that's a little bit unique in in our space. A lot of our competitors will try to do a flat fee, which sounds nice in theory, but then they nickel and dime for every transaction, every wire fee, every purchase of asset, every sale of asset. And so we used to have that fee schedule because our competitors did 10 years ago. But then we become a collection company where it's like, you want that done? It's $25. So everything's included in your annual fee. And so it's less than a percent. And I like that because almost everyone I know is paying way more than one percent. You're paying three Roger (25:44) Three, four, yeah. GH (25:46) or four. Although everyone thinks they're paying one percent. but you know, when you're buying these different mutual funds and and different products, you're you you're you're definitely paying more than one percent. So that's the fee to have you basically to unlock. your options and so you know your options to what to invest in and and I like to explain that we help set up the container. You pick the contents that go in the container. We help that we help with the documentation, getting it established. and I would say a lot of our clients are not only people like you Roger that that that are active in the investment world but also are have communities and so the that refer us business Who are trying to scale and or trying to buy a piece of property. Like I have so many calls where it's like, hey, I'd set up my account. I got two partners or friends. Can you get their account set up? So now we'll have a half a million dollars and we're gonna buy this asset. And so so that's that's a a lot of the business that we do at Horizon Trust Company. Roger (26:44) Well, you just described an enormous market that I'm guessing a large percentage of the people listening or watching this program are self-identifying. I mean, unless you're fresh out of school, there's a great possibility that you've had a job before you're at the job, which is the job that you're really loving that's causing your tax problem. And I don't know about the rest of the world, but like for Greg and I, when we were moving jobs, I wasn't worried about rolling over. IRAs and all that. Like I just see ya, I don't want to deal with you anymore. I'm going over here. And then you wake up one day and realize, my God, I gave away a bunch of money because I didn't do what I was supposed to do. I think Yeah, sure. GH (27:26) Well and and l one last thing on that I wanna share that I I wasn't aware of until I started doing it for our company. Well you know, there's thing there is pension plans and four one K plans that I personally have set up for my staff selfishly so I can put away more money for me. And so I put a percentage of I put money in each one of my employees' accounts even if they put nothing in it. And I would bet to even even an IRA company like mine, right? I would still bet that twenty-five percent of my staff don't know that they have a f account. So it when they do leave us, now we don't get that money if they leave us or we let them go. It's still theirs. But it's gonna be hanging out in these, you know, these these dormant accounts that we're talking about today. So just know that even if you didn't put money into an account, there's a good chance that you might have this account out there that your emp old employer was putting money into. Roger (28:25) Right. So it behooves me to ask, is there a way for people like how do you check? GH (28:31) It's a tough one. I wish there was just like a put in my social security number and birth date and then they'll Roger (28:35) Yeah. GH (28:35) pull up all of it. not that easy. The the easiest thing to do is is you need to remember where you worked and and then c y the best thing to do, the fastest thing to do is if you can't find statements or no if you had any plans, is then to call that HR department and and ask. And and ask who the provider was and if monies were rolled over and they'll tell you. but Roger (28:57) Gotcha. GH (28:58) that that's that's the best. Roger (28:59) Gotcha. Okay. All right. This now it's now it's the fun part. You we GH (29:05) Wait, we weren't having fun? Roger (29:07) well, this is the real because we're gonna pretend like we got the money already. So now we're gonna pretend like GH (29:11) Okay, all right. Roger (29:12) okay, it all worked. I got the money. You you you are really good about like pitching examples of things. So I wanted you to give a chance, like if you're a steward. If you think that this is in your future, let me give you a couple role play. Like if you were to have this, this outcome could be possible. So why don't you run through a couple of those. GH (29:36) Yeah, I mean so you know, I can there's so many. I I l this this year so far, just to give you an idea, our company has seen over twenty thousand transactions. Roger (29:47) Wow. GH (29:48) so just you know, I didn't know that until I started getting these KPI reports, right? And these dashboards. I'm like, wow, that's I didn't so we have nine thousand clients and so we have over twenty thousand transactions this year alone. And so in and I can share some outliers with you if you'd like to hear them 'cause that's what gets people excited. but Roger (30:05) Ha ha. GH (30:06) I will tell you that boring for me is sexy, meaning like getting consistent boring returns that have collateral is attractive. And the reason why I can say that is because I've gone after the the Roger (30:21) Yeah. GH (30:22) the big ones and you know they've been painful sometimes personally, right? And so Roger (30:27) Yeah. GH (30:27) so so look, I'll start with saying the the the goal that I h have for our clients at Horizon Trust I'm is for them to to to get rid of the ups and downs of the stock market and to get consistent double digit returns. That that might be ten or twelve percent. And that's not a bad return if it's consistent. Roger (30:46) Probably. GH (30:47) And so like the market we all know, right, the market's been good the last couple of years. Well, well yeah, the it now it earned bad you know, if it has a twenty percent, but the year before it, you know, two, three years ago it lost fifteen or twenty. That twenty percent, like now you're at a break even from two or three years ago. So it's not Getting rid of the ups and downs and getting consistency, as I say, is what the goal is. So to answer your question, what I see a lot of is lending. I see a lot of people that have IRAs but don't want to be necessarily the operator. Roger (31:16) Mm-hmm. GH (31:17) I would say eighty percent of our clients that invest in real estate are not active. They are involved in a fund, in a fractional, in a an o reg D offering, in a in a lending opportunity. We're They get a fixed rate of return or fixed percent of profits. And so let's say their IRAP does X. Now they're in a multifamily deal fund or project. And it then exits it might be zero returns or four percent per year until it sells kind of returns. And then they get a big multiple. I see a a a lot of that, eighty percent of it's probably in you know, in in s you know, partnering with or buying units in an entity. And so that's I see you know quite a bit of that. Now is can you wholesale a couple of deals a year in your IRA? Yes. can you fix and flip? Yes. I look I I I if there is a big if if you are if you are blessed enough to have two types of money a couple hundred thousand dollars in your bank account and a couple hundred thousand dollars in an IRA. When there's an opportunity that comes about, if there's immediate great tax benefits like cost seg, right? The bonus depreciation, you should use your non-IRA money for that. And if if you Roger (32:44) Yeah. GH (32:44) don't have that opportunity where there's those tax benefits, which most a lot of them don't have that, by the way, most don't have that opportunity, then you should use your IRA. Now most people aren't blessed enough, and I w and I haven't been for the longest time until you know a few years ago. To be able to pick which bucket, like, I've got this here and that here. Most people have money in a retirement account. And Roger (33:07) Right. GH (33:07) so the cost SAG or bonus depreciation is not bonus is not doesn't really play into that that role. so that's for you to talk about and decide what kind of money you do have and don't have. I I have liked to f put deals that I think I could make significant returns, like double my money in three years, in my IRA. Roger (33:30) Mm-hmm. GH (33:31) Because I don't want to pay taxes ever, because I've got a Roth IRA. And so I've put some money into a with my with my Roth IRA into a startup company recently, about two well, they're not it's been two years now, but in a in a company that's does the the transportation of embryos for medical, you know, the medical field. and it's It's looks like it's already might have already doubled or tripled the value today. Roger (34:03) Well. GH (34:03) Now, right, it hasn't sold yet. But just to give you an idea, I mean that's outside the norm for me even. And and but we hear about these different ideas. And so my son has a Roth IRA and he fix and flips now he doesn't personally do it, he invests in it, construction equipment. He they buy a fifteen Roger (34:22) interesting. GH (34:22) thousand dollar piece of construction equipment, fix it up, paint it. Flip it. not something I do. you know, it's something he does. And so, and so, so, you know, I can go all kinds, I mean, I got lots of those random stories because they always like interest me, like, my gosh, that's interesting. Roger (34:40) Sure. GH (34:42) But but the bread and butter for me, even, is I like I love to lend because I don't want to oversee the project. I did that for a decade. A lot of stress, a lot of variables. And so I enjoy finding people who are good at that. who have a team for that and then lending or partnering Roger (35:01) Yeah. I think the thing that if I was listening with my Stuart ears is We repeat to these people often you you work 80, 90 hours a week already. You you're you're solving huge problems for clients. You don't have time to take on another job. So if we're gonna do this and knowing those constraints to be true, what you said, Greg, I think is the most important part is that people are just investing in operators in their funds. Because they believe in the operator and in the asset class and just realizing the return without having to do anything. I think there's probably a pretty common misconception on the average listener's part to think that if I do a conversion into an IRA that's self-directed, I gotta go buy something I'm gonna manage. And for a lot of people, that would be what they would choose to do. But that doesn't mean that's what this group should do. This group should probably never do that. In reality, what we'd like people to think about is what you said in the beginning: 10 to 12 consistent percent repeatedly, like clockwork, until you decide that you don't want to do it anymore. It's just filling up the coffers in ways that give you more flexibility around what the take home money you're bringing in does for you. And that's GH (36:33) Mm-hmm. Roger (36:34) the most important part for people to think about. When gas is more expensive, when utilities are more expensive, when travel has gone through the roof, let's take some of the things that aren't quite working hard enough for you and put them to work in a little bit more impressive capacity to help offset some of this cost. GH (36:53) Yeah. Roger (36:53) But if you don't do the the the conversion, then the rest of it is a moot point. And GH (36:59) Mm-hmm. That's right. Roger (37:00) I don't know how else to put that, but this just the reality of the situation, right? GH (37:05) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Roger (37:08) All right. T talk talk to about like the the what the government will want people to know. Like how do we stay out of trouble if we decide to do this stuff? GH (37:18) Well well look, there's there's always rules and and and one thing that we teach people is this I said talked about a container earlier. The Roger (37:31) Mm-hmm. GH (37:32) rules of if you have a traditional Roth simple SEP HSA whatever kind of retirement account you currently have, let's say at Charles Schwab or Fidelity or wherever you might be, if you roll that amount over to us some dollar amount you can move over a portion of it or all of it. It comes over tax free. But it's still a traditional, simpler SEP. You don't some people are confused like, I don't have a SEP anymore or a traditional account. I now have a self-directed account. No, no, no. You have a self-directed traditional account or a self-directed Roth account with us. And so as far as the rules go there first is all the same rules that you have wherever you are currently at with that account. apply to us as well, meaning how much you can put in, how much you can take out, what the penalties are. All those rules are exactly the same no matter where you're at. The only difference is the contents in the container, what you invest in and who you invest with. And so those are the no-nos. Disqualified persons. This is the number one thing where the IRS will penalize you and and your account can be disrupted is on Disqualified investments and persons, particularly Roger (38:48) Mm. GH (38:48) the persons. People you cannot invest and give money to. Your kids, your parents, your grandparents, the lineage that goes up and down. So I can't lend my IRA to my son's real estate deal. It's prohibited. There's lots of reasons why it's probably obvious to think why it's prohibited. If he's late in the payment, I mean I would make him Roger (39:13) Right. Right. GH (39:13) make you know, figure it out. But a lot of parents wouldn't, right? So you can't those are prohibited. Now I can lend to brothers, sisters, in-laws, aunts and uncles, which is interesting, right? But this disqualified persons thing is very important. I almost did like a Christian thing, right? So Roger (39:30) Ha ha ha. GH (39:31) this works, but this does not out or this does and so anyway, so I I would say those the disqualified persons is the most important thing. and then prohibited investments like you can't invest in collectibles, arts, stamps, alcohol. There's very few things actually. It's actually easier for me to say what you can't invest in 'cause almost everything else is you can invest in. But but you can't like let's say for example you have you want to buy an Airbnb with your IRA. Lots of people do. great investment, right? Or investment property. Well your IRA buys it and you can get financing as well, by way your IRA can do that as well. But then they decide they want to use it once a year, Christmas time, whatever, for a week. Can't use it. You're now using your IRA, that's disqualified. You can't use your investments. I had someone buy a cutting horse. Didn't know what that was, by the way. I now know what a cutting horse is. I don't know if you know what that is or not, but it it's it's Roger (40:31) No. GH (40:31) a trained horse that works, you know, it's basically a trained horse that w helps work rodeos and stuff. They their LLC. The established an LLC. The IRA was the owner of the LLC. The LLC bought a horse. you're good, di no, you're good. You're good. No, you're good. Roger (40:48) Hold on one sec, Greg. I got I got a little here. Hold on. We gotta go back upstairs. I'm talking on the phone right now. Say hi to Greg. GH (41:01) Hi, you're beautiful. Hi. Roger (41:02) We'll keep it in the show. This is Jade, she's my granddaughter. GH (41:07) beautiful. I love your coat. Roger (41:10) She's visiting from Jacksonville. That's why she's wearing a coat. GH (41:13) wow, nice. Hanging out with grandpa. I like it. Alright, grandpa's almost done. Don't worry. Roger (41:20) Yep, we're almost done. pop? We don't have any more pups down here. the pup. Okay, take the pup. Having them in town? GH (41:38) It's the best. Roger (41:39) It totally is. All right. So we have so we're gonna go back. Start with the cutting horse. I gotta hear it. GH (41:45) yeah, the cutting horse. So so look, this is just an example, right? So on a cutting horse, this is not I mean, this is acceptable, not disqualified. They established an LLC, which we helped them do, and the LLC is owned by their IRA. Roger (42:00) Mm-hmm. GH (42:00) So they moved money, let's say, from Fidelity, let's say twenty five thousand dollars into us at Horizon Trust Company and then directed us at Horizon to move the twenty five thousand dollars to their new LLC, because their LLC is the IRA. Roger (42:15) Mm-hmm. GH (42:15) Now the LLC took that money and purchased a cutting horse, basically a rodeo working horse. And then they leased out that horse every rodeo, every weekend or every other weekend for $1,500 a weekend. That's actually really good math if you think about it. These are real pretty real numbers. They bought the horse for I think between 20 and 25,000. They're they're leasing out the horse ten times, let's say, a year at a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars on a twenty-five thousand dollar investment. That's a fifty percent rate of return, right? That's all fine, right? What would not be fine is if the owner of the IRA was riding the horse. Roger (43:02) Okay. GH (43:01) So so just just an example. Like so I you know, I gave you an real estate example, can't use it, can't use the property. Same with like the asset if it was a a racing, you know, not racing well, a racing horse as well or a cutting horse. So look, I know it's not necessarily applicable to ninety-nine point nine percent of of the listeners here. but but there are some rules, you need to be careful of and and we help you with that along the way. the last thing I'd ever want anyone to be concerned about is the process, the paperwork. Do's and don'ts. we help people along the way, which is makes our company I think unique is and why I started the company is because most trust companies don't help you along the way. They send you paperwork. It's confusing. They don't help you kind of fill out the paperwork and explain the do's and don'ts. They send you to webinars, etcetera. And we obviously have those as well. but but we really hold your hand through the process to make sure it is is compliant. So yeah. Roger (43:55) Yeah, that's as a customer of the business, I would say that was the experience that we had. So we did it, it worked. Somebody's out there like flipping through their computer right now, trying to find the old email from that company five five companies ago. Like do you you walk people kind of through like the thought process that you want folks if that's how they're feeling about stuff right now? Like what GH (44:21) Yeah, for for sure. I mean that's that's the kind of find out we do in the beginning. and like I said, you'll be surprised. There's there's a there's there's a lot more money out there that you might not be aware of. Roger (44:33) Sure. And then I guess just for like discernment, right? So there's always this battle about what's a what's a traditional, what's a Roth, what's the difference. I'm assuming most of the folks that are listening to this, but in case somebody doesn't understand the difference, like you want to just follow that story out for folks. GH (44:51) Yeah, yeah. So a traditional IRA account is one where you it's it's before tax dollars you're contributing. So if you put up, you know, five thousand dollars today, it's before taxes and so you actually get a write-off today as well, meaning not a write-off, but you don't pay taxes on that income that you contribute. And so let's say you made a hundred thousand dollars this year and you contribute five thousand dollars to a traditional You're only gonna pay taxes on the $95,000 of income because you contributed five to a traditional. So you get the benefits today, but then that $5,000 as it grows over five, 10, 20 years, and you pull it out. Let's say the five now turns into $100,000. When you pull out the hundred, you'll pay taxes on the full $100,000. On a Roth, you pay taxes on the crop rather than the seed. So that seed I talked about in the beginning, that five thousand, instead of when you put up five thousand into a Roth account, you still pay taxes on your full hundred thousand dollars in income, even though you contributed five thousand dollars into a Roth. And then when it grows to a hundred and you pull out the hundred, you pay zero taxes. It's powerful. Roger (46:04) Boom. GH (46:05) And that that is that is one of the things that every individual should, and in most cases I should say, not every, but almost every individual should try to figure out how to get money into their Roth IRA. And we help people do too, convert the traditional to a Roth. When to do it, how to do it. You can talk to your CPA. I always recommend that too. But a Roth is powerful, especially if you have like another, you know, at least five, if not ten years of of growing, then you should you should get money into a Roth. Roger (46:34) That is it. That is it. And to know right, so we always the the borrow, buy and die. So you may not get rid of your portfolio that you've built with all of these strategies and the at the inheritance tax at the end is the kicker that we always want to talk about. So you want to leave that little one in place too? GH (47:00) Yeah, I mean, I don't have too much to share on it. it is a kicker at the end of the day. I mean, so the your beneficiaries and heirs and or spouse will have to pay taxes on it if it's still a traditional count. And so, you know, the reason why I don't spend as much time on it is I'm a big proponent in in in spending it while you're alive, not frivolously, but living your best life, you and your spouse, but leaving enough for right your spouse. but not really for the kids. And so I don't really talk too much about but we do have a lot of inherited accounts. And so you do need to be aware, right? Be aware of of of these types of benefits. and I would just selfishly do it for yourself because if you do think you're gonna grow your money for the next 10 years, get into a Roth. and you can do that over time. it's a whole kind of presentation we give another time, but you can do move that money into a Roth Let it keep growing so when you wanna pull it out for for you and your loved ones while you're alive, you're not paying taxes. rather than you know, it passing on to your beneficiaries. Roger (48:12) Greg, I finish them all by saying that's it, that's all, that's everything. Like if we haven't convinced them by now, we're not convincing them. So we've we've done our best. We've proven to people that there is a a reputable path with a multi-year history of successful performance in this space. We've major assets under management, under the horizon umbrella. It's super easy to do. It doesn't cost a lot of money. I don't know how else to promote what you do, Greg. Seriously. Like it it really is. GH (48:43) I don't know. Roger (48:45) For for folks who really want to get over the hump, I'll I'll draw one final analogy. Whenever you have a coach, you're gonna do the work because the coach has your money. If you get your own money under your own control, you will do stuff because there's GH (49:03) Mm-hmm. Roger (49:03) nobody to blame them. GH (49:05) Yeah. Roger (49:05) So if you put yourself in a position to be in control, which many of you tell me personally, the thing that bothers you the most is I don't have enough control of my own assets. We just gave you a major key to unlock that problem for you. So, Greg, I hope as you give people a way to contact Verizon Trust, you're gonna call me later and we're gonna be excited at the flood of people who are wanting to do this. So Let people know if they want to take the next step how they might do that with the horizon. GH (49:36) Look, just y you can find us. My name's Greg Herleen. You can find Horizon Trust Company. Reach out to Roger. He's got my information. We love to know where you're coming from anyway. So I almost prefer reach out to Roger. He'll connect us. We're very hands-on personal. I love, you know, I know a lot of CEOs don't love it, but I love getting the texts and emails from from clients. Referral is the best compliment. So I get them all the time. It's like, hey And Roger'll be on there with you and say, hey, this is a friend of mine and he wants to learn more and then I'll get you with someone on my team. but look, we wanna give first. And so just know that when you talk to us, there is no hard, you know, sales call at all. We wanna give you the information you need, the knowledge you need to go and talk to your advisors or team or CPA and see if it's the right fit for you. and then for you to take action. And so the biggest thing I'd say is you need to take action. Like the if you're not doing this or don't have one of these type of accounts, I You don't have a retirement account. You don't have a Roth account. You need to get one started. And I don't care if it's with a competitor. You need to get one started. You will thank me later, three, four, five years from down the road, like, my gosh, I already have $100,000 in there. Get it started. Roger (50:43) Exactly. Exactly. And for those of you who are like me who like to get ready to get ready for a while, Greg has the Horizon team has countless resources from an educational perspective. Greg puts on a seemingly nonstop supply of webinars. If you want to continue to learn more, just a matter of following Horizon Trust Social Ass, and you will have more than ample opportunity to learn even more should you want to do that. So Greg man, I appreciate it. Just like always. You crush it and I'm sure we'll see you again on the programme, my friend. GH (51:17) Sounds good. Thanks for having me, Roger. Appreciate it.