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Depression: Am I Depressed or Just Lazy? · RECOVERable: Mental Health and Addiction Experts Answer Your Questions

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the biggest tasks as a therapist trying to explain to somebody this is depression.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't them just saying that they don't want to do their math homework.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Agent Chavez is a licensed marriage and family therapist and licensed professional clinical counselor.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in the beginning, my depression was like a nice friend that showed up.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a kind reprieve.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're looking at me.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, I want to hear more.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you describe depression to somebody who's never experienced it?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: I welcome to Recoverable.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Terry McGuire, your host.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're going to be talking about depression.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if you have the diagnosis and are looking for more information about how to manage and live with it, if you don't have a diagnosis, but you know something's not quite right, or if you know somebody, care about somebody who has depression and you want to learn how to better understand and support them, this is a conversation you're not going to want to miss.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Asia Chavez, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to talk to you.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: As a licensed therapist, as somebody who, like myself, lives with depression.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: And, and you've said I can say this, a suicide attempt survivor as well.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: And all of those things bring such a wealth of perspectives to this conversation that I am anxious to have it because I think that people need to hear other people just talk about it, like it's something people can have.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really glad to be here.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I um really hope that this sheds some light and provides some understanding to a lot of folks.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: My first question is what does depression feel like?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Depression feels like, well, it evolves.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: It can feel like a very warm, heavy, weighted blanket.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: It can feel like moving through mud.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: It can feel like pure and utter hopelessness.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: It can feel like there is just a little lingering dark cloud that's kind of hovering around.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: It for me has felt in times just like the world's a little fuzzy and I can't quite fully emerge and focus and concentrate.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then other times it has felt like there is no point in trying to do this anymore.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: I am done.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: I tap out.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that is one of the aspects that makes depression so confusing.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe for so many folks, maybe moving away from really looking at is depression something that I'm struggling with?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not one clear, yes, we have a DSM diagnosis.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And those words, the categories there don't really encapsulate fully what depression might look and feel like.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you describe depression to somebody who's never experienced it?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, in my work with teenagers, many times I'm talking with their parents and I'm helping the teens advocate to their parents and maybe trying to get parents to see and understand what they're struggling with.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we're talking about depression, I'll say it might look like your teen or your loved ones saying, I'm so tired all of the time.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: I just can't.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to go to cheer practice or soccer practice because I just don't care anymore.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do that anymore.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it might look like this slow erosion of engagement and interaction with things that people really loved doing.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: You might observe your loved one, their diet changes a little bit.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're eating a little bit more, they're eating a little bit less.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're not engaging in things that maybe brought them a lot of joy, hobbies, activities.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: They might start isolating a little bit more.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: So these are all kind of the cues and the signs that there might be an issue and depression might start showing up.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: We might talk about this a little bit later, but it might also kind of mimic like laziness a little bit.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting you say that because one of the goals of this podcast is to address the top asked questions, the top searches on the internet.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the number one is am I depressed or am I lazy?
• 4:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I giggle because I cannot tell you how many times I asked myself that question.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I asked myself, am I depressed?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just told myself, you are so lazy.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: You are so unmotivated.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: You look at everyone else can do this.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I remember looking out my window.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was in my 20s and everyone's getting ready and they're going to work.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like 7 a.m.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking, how do they do that?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now I had to get up and go to work, but I just remember feeling this sense of, it's be just because I'm so lazy.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't love the word lazy, first of all.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think many times exhaustion and tiredness shows up as a cue that we need to rest and recharge.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the difference is with uh depression, when we rest and recharge, we don't like when we step away, we don't actually feel rested and recharged.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: It just continues and continues and continues and takes us down even further.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: The rest is I was gonna say checking out.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's the only way for me that it that I just wasn't thinking it, you know, it was the only time my mind was quiet.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I never woke feeling rested or like, now I can do this, now I can take on this day.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: I swore every morning for a long time.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: The first word was just like, oh, it wasn't L.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna guess.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: I can guess what it was.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: But I was just like, I don't, I don't want to do this again.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: I knew what it was gonna be like, you know what it's gonna feel like, you know what the thoughts are gonna be.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get into all of that, but it was not a, oh, good, you know, I have a solid eight under my belt and now I can see the reasons to be joyful and hopeful.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's not how it went.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think about, you know, when you're asking this question of how to describe it to someone who's never experienced it, right?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think about what a loved one or a parent or a partner observing that, the oh, right.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Here's another day.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: And a parent or a partner, a loved one might look around and say, but look at all the things in your life that you have to be grateful for.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And at least you have this and and this.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it can be really confusing, right?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: When especially those of us that might be high achieving, high achievers, that when depression shows up and a loved one or a partner might be like, what's happening?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: This this is coming out of the blue.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the biggest tasks as a therapist trying to explain to somebody this is depression.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't them just saying that they don't want to do their math homework.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: So many people don't believe or understand that depression is a medical condition.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: What is it?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is it, you know, a mental illness, a medical condition, a mood disorder?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there are so many different ways to look at it.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: What's the helpful and accurate way to look at it?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important that we look at it as a medical condition.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important that we look at it as a mood disorder.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also really important that we look at it that there are life circumstances and there are experiences that contribute and compound depression.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's this intersection of kind of all of these coexisting together.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's really dangerous when we move away from looking at it as a true medical struggle.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: We know we have evidence that uh medication is extremely helpful when we are walking through someone maybe out of the deep, deep depths of their depression.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when we move away from that model, I think we we lose a lot of folks.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're definitely going to talk about medication because that's that's such a big one.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, let's talk about the different kinds that you sort of mentioned, different presentations, right?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: That people can be sort of showing depression through various symptoms.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: But there are also different types of depressions.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: And somebody who's got postpartum depression is in a different category than somebody who has bipolar depression or major depressive disorder.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: So if we can just run through some of those, that would be great.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't it amazing how um depression is so shifty in that way, that there's not one clear presentation, there's not one um diagnosis when it comes to depression.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So from a clinical stance, when we're looking at the DSM diagnosis, there are a number of different diagnoses that we might consider and look at for someone.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're looking at is how the depression really shows up, how the length of time, the severity of it, um, the ability to kind of like function and engage in life?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is it compounded and has um a life circumstance like the birth of a child contributed to it?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're looking at is it something that comes and goes, right?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is it cyclical?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is it does depression show up for six weeks and then maybe it dissipates for a number of weeks and then it shows back up and we can kind of predict there's a predictability to that cyclic cyclical pattern of it?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Does it come in these big bursts of these ebbs and flows?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is it combined with some mania?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is it combined with mania and maybe some psychosis?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: So when we're looking at a diagnosis, we're looking at all of these different aspects and we're teasing that out and trying to really differentiate because when we're able to differentiate a diagnosis, then we can get really clear on what the treatment plan will be.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And when I say treatment plan, what I'm saying is like the hope, the moving towards whatever your definition of well-being is.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the therapist answer, which is yeah, I'm asking a therapist.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: How do we know?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because it'd be so easy to think, I don't know, I get up and go to work every day most days.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I must not have it because I my understanding of depression is you're sad, always sad, in a dark room with blankets pulled over your head.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's so many different ways it's described and shown in the media and in life.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: How do we know if we have depression versus if we're sad, if we're checked out, if we're any of the other things that can look and feel like?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think first, if we're questioning whether or not we have depression, we might.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we might.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say for me, the exploring if I truly had depression or if this was I was in like a little sad phase.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was the looking around my world and seeing the impact that it had on the relationships in my life.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was very high functioning.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: When I was at the depths of my depression, I was at one of probably the pinnacles of my career.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now that ended up crashing.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we can talk about that a little bit, but everything externally looked good.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so there was this how on earth?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not an Eeyore.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not what was being portrayed in movies, in TV.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, it took someone coming into my life and saying, I think you need to look at this.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: You're really not fun to be around anymore.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, screw you.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I still thought I was fun.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: The delusion, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: The delusion that depression allowed me to have was that things were still kind of operating normally when, like, no, they weren't.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and someone finally came into my life and was like, hey, you might want to take a peek at this.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, it was all of the different like ways that life didn't look or feel the same anymore.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't for like a week.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't because I was like PMSing or because the cat that I loved died.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or right, like there's a difference between grief.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's a difference between all of these different things and depression just kind of I talk about it like it's just like stage four clinger, you know, like it just kind of embedded itself in me and wouldn't release.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's when I knew, like, oh shit, I need to look at this.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: This might be something.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up always being sick.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: I had strep throat from the time that I was 18 months old.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I didn't want one more thing that I had to like deal with and look at and take care of.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that successful people just didn't have, like, I didn't, they don't have depression.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: They don't struggle like this.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: They just find a way to get through life.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me about your depression.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: What was it like?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in the beginning, my depression was like a nice friend that showed up.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a gentle, kind of kind reprieve that showed up.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I say that I know you're looking at me.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um as a young child, from the time that I can remember have been a very deeply feeling person.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: I describe it as being very porous.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect word.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like I could feel everything around me.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I could feel my siblings' experiences, my parents.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I took that all on as if it were my own.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I would interpret it that they were feeling that because it was my fault.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: But most of the time I took it on as it was my actual true feelings, and I didn't know where it was coming from, and I didn't know why, and I didn't know what to do with it.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I needed to kind of escape that, right?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Carrying all of that is really hard as a young child.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was overwhelming, and it was, you know, I could, I can still feel the like bristly yucky yuckiness of it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And depression, I feel like, stepped in and was like, I have a solution for that.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know a way to take that all away.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll help you.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: All we have to do is just kind of not feel.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's a numbness, there's a checking out, right?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying numbness, and that might sound kind of negative or bad, but it was a relief.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was a reprieve.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think in a in my teen years, I think I was able to lie to myself and say it was solitude.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know that feeling?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and really it was this depression.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I talked about this like stage four clinger coming in and being like, okay, all we have to do is get alone.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're just gonna go alone.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be alone.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we're just gonna the way to get rid of it is to just like block all of those people out.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: It took away connection.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: It took away belonging.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: It took away, but I didn't have to feel that anymore.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was like something I actually wanted and something that I feel like I needed.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: I needed rest.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I needed recharge.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And depression was this like sneaky liar that was like, Oh, I'll give you that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'll and so it looked like as a young child, it looked like my dad trying to wake me up to go to my soccer tournament and be me being like, I can't today, I'm sick.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, I don't feel good.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I had this like heavy, heavy, heavy blanket and not being able to get out of bed and feeling like maybe it was, I don't know, I was gonna go to a sleepover, I was gonna do something.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And there was no feeling around it.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, not like anxiety, oh my gosh, I'm worried about going, just like empty, blank.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do this.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do this.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Joy was gone.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And now joy ebbs and flows, but it was gone for periods of a time.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, no one would have really known because I'm really good at performing.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was still able to show up and put on the smile.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And but inside there was a void, there was an emptiness, there was a darkness.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember a lot of technical words because my head is too full of other things, but Anhedonia I remember because it's that like inability to connect with joy, like even things you know you like and and like today, yes, couldn't, couldn't, not didn't, couldn't feel yesterday, couldn't like, couldn't connect to.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really diabolical kind of thing.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because it can make you disconnect from things that you need in your life to be healthy.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was like food, but food didn't taste good.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I would listen to music.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Remember when CDs were a thing?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Of course I do.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Look at my hair.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I actually, it was like tapes, like actual like tapes.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was I would put on a tape and the day before I'd be like dancing around.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and man, when it when depression showed up, it was just kind of like gone.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would listen to that music and just be like, mmm.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it got worse than that.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: It got much worse.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, much worse than that.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: So go ahead, take a sip.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so as you got into your 20s, it it and and you said 26 was when you attempted.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: So what changed that made it from I just can't connect with joy to I'm done?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was okay.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: So in high school, there's this kind of lie that you're gonna turn into an adult and everything is gonna get better.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: I want, I was like hesitant saying lie because maybe some teenagers still need to believe that.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: But and so there was this like false sense of hope that I feel like I had in high school of like, I'll hit this next stage and everything will get better.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get into college, everything will look and feel better.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm feeling this way because high school sucks.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm in my like small town and I need to like get out and get away.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Here I am kind of doing the the things that I think are going to bring me these, this like immense sense of relief and joy.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And all of the like yucky darkness is just gonna be vanished.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, surprise, um, it didn't go away.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, things felt even more difficult.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Things felt even more heavy because now I'm I'm a grown-up and I'm I'm an adult and I have all these responsibilities.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I'm looking back now in my 20s of um decisions that I've made.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And now there's like shame is showing up.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's getting compounded.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think I I always experienced shame, but it's getting bigger and it's getting louder.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one kind of decision after another that I'm making that I think is gonna be like, I think the guy is gonna make me really happy, or like the new apartment, or the fancy job, or the and realizing, slowly realizing like this isn't taking it away.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing that's in fact, it's getting more, it was getting more and more intense.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and then I think like life, my lived experiences compounded it, right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I have this internal, I think I came into this world with like depression, you know, like I think that uh epigenetics, right?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there was this, and I say darkness and I don't mean it in like such a bad way, but there was like a depth and a darkness to me that, you know, slowly the light switch got turned up a little bit higher and then it got turned on to the point where um I felt like nothing was taking it away.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: I felt so hopeless.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I experienced a divorce.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: I had a very, I hate the word toxic, but I had a really challenging work environment and experience.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: I it was just like one thing after another where depression spoke to me and was like, see, nothing's gonna get better, but I got solution for you.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know a way out.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just like, I want a way out.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: I want a way out.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I get emotional.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, it makes me sad too, and it makes me remember.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_04: Take a minute.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_04: That was almost almost 20 years ago.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: I think about that girl in my mid-20s.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_04: Who seemingly had it all loving parents a career and a house?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I want to talk about.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's almost confusing because I truly in my life had everything that I thought that I wanted.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_04: I'll never forget that then.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: I'm done.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_04: This is too much.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't get it doesn't get easier, it doesn't get better.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was still very porous.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would watch the news.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't getting better.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would talk to my friends, they were all in struggle.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was my solution.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: It was my um, what do they call it when you pull the cord on the escape hatch?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like, yeah, like escape hatch.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it was something that I had been, it was kind of always in the back of my mind.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: I remember in my teens I wrote a poem about suicide.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought I was so um like emo and cool.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly what I was gonna say, yes.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I was so cool and so emo.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, got pulled pulled to the counselor's office for that, you know, and there was a lot of concern.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking, like, oh, like this is um, oh, do we not all?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Think about maybe not being you know the scene in Barbie when she's dancing and like the And then like I had that moment of like, oh, we don't like talk about this and we don't share this, like um but it was always something that was kind of an there if I needed it, of this like escape patch.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I used it.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I just felt like I couldn't do it anymore.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm glad you're here.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: And what changed?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_04: You mean from then?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_04: Everything and nothing.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if that makes sense.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_04: I'll I'll I'll share a little bit about that.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: I well, one, everyone in my life was like, oh dang, there's a problem here.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I never fully, openly, ever said to anyone, not even my therapist, who I was paying for many years, I never said, I have a problem.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm really depressed.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think about dying.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do this anymore.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: I never once fully asked for help.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really even know that was an option to ask for help, to say that it was depression.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And here I'm in therapy.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I still I just it was like this one, I don't think I wanted to actually let go of depression because as I described it, it was something that was there that I thought was helpful in a way.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It it allowed me to find like the gig was up.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone knew ages got ages in struggle.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a relief to that.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I could finally let the mask off.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I spent some time in an ICU.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then from there I went to a psych stabilization unit in my hometown, which isn't the most fun thing.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: You definitely knew the nurses working there.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I remember feeling for the first time in I don't know, like years this like, oh, I don't have to pretend anymore.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I I don't have to like keep the facade up.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: I could be as like in deep struggle as I needed to be.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't have to like put on the makeup or do my hair or like put on the nice clothes.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I asked for help.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I took the medication that was suggested.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I did what other people told me to do.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: I finally, I finally started to disagree with the depressive, the depression dialogue that was in my head.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now that took a long time to get to that phase.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was then able to uh disobey it, right?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and and do the opposite.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to start taking contrary action.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it wasn't this like I woke up in the hospital and I was like, whoa, that was a massive mistake.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot believe I did that.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Depression be gone.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was years of really intentional work and a decision that I wasn't going to let depression own me anymore.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Depression was no longer in control of my brain and my body.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's work.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: That was work.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: I went to two residential programs.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: I went from one that was a 45, really intensive, trauma-based, just like dove in there and did some really difficult, uncomfortable work.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went to an aftercare program for three months in California.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And my journey has has never stopped from there.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: It is the constant and consistent um daily maintenance of caring for myself, caring for my mind, caring for my body.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And depression still shows up.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you're a therapist.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Really, I think we need people who understand what it is, what it's like, how hard it is to fight, how for you soothing the the lies were.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um I did mine were different, but yeah.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know that my my struggles, the depth of my struggles are my superpower today as a clinician.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because you can understand what the teens you're working with are feeling and experiencing?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can deeply relate.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: And when they come in and they're looking for a reason to say, I can't trust you.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I won't believe anything you say because you have no idea what yep, they're um, I can say, Oh, let me tell you a little story.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Now our experiences are not going to be the same.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: But that deep level of relating.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And for them to be like, you seemingly have it all.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, babe.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing to do.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Then we're back to the medical condition.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because no one would say that.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you, cancer?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: But look at you.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: You're lovely.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like what does that have to do with anything?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: But with mental health issues, it's there's some assumption that if you're X, Y, or Z, you shouldn't have it.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're A, B, and C, well, of course you do.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's a very strange dichotomy and stigma, yeah.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think is really the word.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think we think mental illness looks messy and sloppy.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: It can look pristine.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're supposed to be asking the internet's questions, not Terry's.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I will try to get to some of those as well.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: One of the questions was like, how do you not consider yourself lazy if you can, you're scrolling on your phone and you can do that for hours?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I can't get out of bed to cook a meal.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's about that internal dialogue.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's about the understanding, and it's about the, you know, knowing the impact that depression has on every aspect of our being.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: It infiltrates our thoughts.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: It infiltrates our physical well-being.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: As I said that, I can feel the like heaviness that happens in my body.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: It like pull, it like wants to pull you down.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: It deeply infiltrates and impacts our mood.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so the dialogue, the the belief system of this is me just being lazy, that's the lie that depression tells us again to keep us in a shame spiral.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: When we're in shame, when we're in a a place of questioning worth, yeah, of questioning who we are, our personalities, that's when depression is like, gotcha.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Seeps right in there.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really challenging, I mean, it's really challenging.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can say, oh, just don't, oh, just don't think that.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Just don't think that.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the those thoughts are going to come up.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to be there.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a piece of whatever.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm so lazy.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm, and so being able to, when I, when I'm talking about like disagreeing with the internal dialogue, I like to tell myself, I'm in a day of deep struggle.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is a day of deep struggle.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I might even give myself permission to just like take a day.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: I can't take more than a day.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because then it's like, oh, that I'll just continue down, I'll go down that rabbit hole.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I will really allow myself to think like, okay, I think, I think depression might be showing up here.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in deep, deep, I'm in deep struggle.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm gonna just kind of like do what I know I need to do.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically saying you give yourself a sick day because you're feeling sick.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: And deep, deep struggle is illness.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: And and you need to do something to allow yourself to shift a bit.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: The next question from the internet, the second most searched question is what are the signs of depression?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And personally, I have an issue with the printed signs because when I read, sleep too much or sleep too little, eat too much, or eat too little.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, like, is that not everyone?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: For me, the defining thing is the thoughts, and we'll get to them all.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: But let me ask you again, what are the first signs of depression?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the first like technical signs of depression, this is I'm gonna give you the clinical answer of the we're looking at loss of engagement or joy or excitement in areas that maybe used to bring you joy.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we're also looking at um a difference in normal and typical sleep patterns.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're looking at a shift in diet, maybe more, maybe less.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: So unclear, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's so unclear when we're looking at um, and then we're looking at um maybe this like let's we're talking about loss of enjoyment.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about isolating, not not stepping in and engaging with different, different activities.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: The that's the the clinical kind of definition of depression might look and feel very different than the true, this is what the the onset of depression is going to look and feel like.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it really is that internal, the internal, the thought process, how it shifts the thoughts, how it shifts the how we care for ourselves.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if we care about ourselves really as much anymore, and then how we care for ourselves.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate the shift in the answer because I I also think that those the printed technical clinical symptoms are really hard.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's important for us to know our own, because I've been interviewing people for nine years about depression, um, and have my own.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the takeaways is that I think one of the only things we can do is learn our early warning signs.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because if we feel it coming, if we see it, I think of a train whistle.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's like, oh, oh, oh, this is I just said yesterday, I'm either getting sick or my depression's coming because I just felt off all day.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, something's wrong, something's wrong.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, then we can do some things.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: But if we wait, like you said, I can't stay in bed a second, third, fourth day.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're, you know, you I don't want to use the word surrender because it doesn't seem at all fair, but you're in it more.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk a little bit about knowing our own personal early warning signs so that we can in some way get a step ahead, maybe not slide as far.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know how to say how we can affect the course of it.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's so important to know one, what wellness and well-being looks like in our world to be in our lives to be able to know what the warning signs are because we have to be able to notice those subtle shifts when they start to show up.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just gonna speak about my experience.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's gonna have a very different experience.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's I'm a real I wake up really early in the morning.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've got two young children, I gotta get my workouts in early.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also just like my Zircadian rhythm.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an early to bed, early to rise.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: When I start waking up and I know I've slept eight hours straight and I don't feel rusted, and I feel the calling, the whisper, yes, yeah, just go back to bed.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's my first, that's a first clue for me.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now it could be that I had a really tough work, work week or whatever.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: But if I think to myself, oh man, it's just been Asia, it's just been a tough week.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you're a little bit extra drained.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And my brain is starts chattering back to me in the no, you just really need whatever little lies it's gonna tell me.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's my first warning sign.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a pop out of my my poor husband.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: He hates a spummy.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a pop out of bed.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go get this day.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna, you know, I got the coffee already brewed, I'm ready to go, which might be surprising that like depression still exists with somebody who is like, I'm like productivity, babe.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna get this day.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um when it is, I don't want to get out of bed.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I am not looking forward to going to the yoga class that I absolutely adore with people that I absolutely love because I actually don't want to be seen by people that I love and adore.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, warning sign.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a warning sign for me.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Isolation, when that whisper starts to show up, I need to pay attention to that.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: I am someone who, yes, I get overstimulated, but I get, I get refilled when I'm around others.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: So when I am not actively seeking out connection with others, that's a problem.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's a warning sign for me.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: When I am waking up and I can feel my hunger cues, I'm hungry.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to eat.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's another very subtle, very subtle clue that depression is showing back up.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to jump in and say none of these are sad.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people think it's sad.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: You can be angry.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I notice it when I'm driving.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: I notice it when I start being impatient with people or critical because I'm not inherently that way.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: And when I'm like, wow, yeah, you know, that that's one of mine.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it surprises me each time because I'm like, that's a sign, but for me it is.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for saying that.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's rarely sadness.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's always irritability.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I turn into not the kindest person when depression starts to show up for me.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, get away from me and it's all your fault.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, obviously.
• 36:39
  unknown: Yeah.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Goes without saying.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's when we can do something though.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's talk without the other like thousand questions I have for you.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: When we notice our own personal warning signs, what can we do that will actually move the needle?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: So whether that's we don't get to the edge, whether that's it's just not as deep the pit that we're in.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: What can we actually affect ourselves in terms of depression by noticing our early warning signs?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: I treat it like it's an illness.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: I treat it like it's an illness.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: Cause it is.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Cause it is.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: I, which is the most challenging thing to do.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I know what my medicine is.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not always medication, although I have taken medication and it has saved my life.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it has allowed me to do the deep therapeutic work that I've needed to do to get to the place where I can have phases in my life where I'm not on medication.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I would 100% be willing to go back on it if I needed it, because I am not willing to risk my life again to not take medication.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, off that soapbox.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: My wellness plan is we talk about contrary action.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's doing all the things that I absolutely do not want to do when I am depressed.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I get up anyway.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I do my praying, I do my meditation, I write this list to my best friend.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: We've been doing it for 15 years.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's a gratitude list, but it's a little different than a gratitude list, where we let each other know and see all of the crappy, yucky, negative thoughts and feelings that we have.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's a Melody Beattie book.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's incredible.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's like 40 days to a miracle.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I do that.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: I let another person that I deeply trust see all of the shit that I'm like feeling and thinking and experiencing.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then I drink the water, I hydrate.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those like memes where it's like, or those posts where it's like I did my little walk from my mental walk from my stupid mental health.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: I do all of that.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: I take all of the action that I know it's not gonna immediately make me feel joy-filled and refreshed and focused and clear, but it's gonna keep me from going down that spiral.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna keep me from and I, and I know that it's going to sustain me and maintain me until there's like it's lifted.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: The, the, the darkness, the, the, the, the heaviness is lifted.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I have to do all those things that, man, I do not want to do because I feel really tired.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: And my brain has convinced me that I don't need to do all those things.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: I deserve a break.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe that later on in what I call the slide, I can't, you know, or it's just so much harder that I think I can't.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's when I first notice.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that is, I mean, I literally only have two takeaways that I carry with me from hundreds of interviews, and that's one of them.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: So listen, it's really important.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I feel so strongly about it because I know it's one of the only times.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: And if I don't, oh Lord, it can get messy and long.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's been years, you know, it's been years where it's I've been under.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: So moving on.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is high functional depression real?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: I am pretty convinced that I lived with high functioning depression, and I probably do now.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, high functioning depression is, you know, we're able to, we have all the things.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: We have all the shoulds that we think we should have, right?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there is the the um the whisper, the the thread, that gossamer thread that kind of is connected to the weight over there.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: In my mind, it can even be more dangerous because if I walk in and I'm, you know, I am Eeyore, right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Someone's gonna hopefully these days, they didn't happen in the past, but might be like, hey, what's up?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: You okay?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if I come in with a smile on my face and I sit down at my desk and I do my job, why would anyone check in with me?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm unable to do it because I'm depressed.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: So in my mind, that can even be more dangerous.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is that true as a clinician?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, yes.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Depression, I think about it, right?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's um it's that like illness that no one can see if we don't want others to see it.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: And many times, and this has been my experience, and we see this certainly with teens, it is deadly.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: It is deadly.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so yeah, that um what makes me nervous about the high functioning folks with high functioning depression is the crash that happens.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a slow, steady decline, right?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And in those slow, steady declines, we can step in, we can intervene, we might see it.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: What you were talking about.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: The, and I feel like this was the case for me, is that everything's perfect, everything's great.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Boom.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: The crash was so much bigger and so much harder because of the fear of letting anyone in and letting anyone see.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so when it, when it finally took me out, I mean, just like pulled the rug right out from under.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we see.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: We see these folks that like when they hit and they crash, it is hard.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: It is hard.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: The fourth most searched question about depression on the internet is why am I depressed for no reason?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: That the smile is a a deep relating to that question.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's a reason.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's always a reason.
• 42:46
  unknown: Right.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: When we're asking that question many times, it's because we believe that depression only shows up when we have a lot to be sad about.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it can.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we put it into this category of very black and white.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think where it's like depression is over here for these people that have experienced this, or and the so why am I depressed for no reason?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there might be a biological reason that you're not aware of.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: There might be a compounding of lived experiences that maybe in and of themselves are not so bad.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: But we live a whole life of this like stacking experience on top of experience.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're not doing the process, I'm such a therapist, sorry.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: But if we're not processing and it's we're not kind of moving it through our minds and our bodies, um, it gets heavy and it gets weighted.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll jump in and say, again, it's a medical condition.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: You wouldn't ask that about a different one.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, I have strep throat for no reason.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: We like I have all I had COVID for no reason.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: But why, why do we think there has to be a reason for it?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: I can.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Name a whole bunch of reasons for when I was really depressed.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: But also sometimes it just comes because I have it.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, biologically, I haven't, you know, I inherited it.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: I and life can be depressing.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of going back to the epigenetics, right?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: It might be something that we have living with us.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: It might remain kind of dormant, or it, and then we walk through life, we have some lived experiences and it flips that switch on.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it might come, you might be in your 20s or you might be in your 30s, and your whole life you have not really felt the effects of depression.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then that switch gets flipped and boom, it feels like it's coming out of left field.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and why do I have this?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's no, there's no real reason for it.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's so funny because like I had all of the indicators and I had all of the cues of depression, and I still very much felt that way.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'd had it before.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'd been on antidepressants before.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: And when I got it the last time, which was by far my worst, I wasn't like, oh, I know this.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've had strep through before.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: I know the, you know, I know this the signs.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: It was my absolute belief that I had lost my value as a human being.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: And would never get it again.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: That is shocking.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm gonna be the one who needs the Kleenex.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I just I did I didn't look it up.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't say, like, well, my glands are swollen.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, let's check WebMD.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: What could that be a sign of?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: I that's the lies that depression tells you, right?
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: Had worn me down so far before it ever hit that by the time it did, I was like, yeah, I'm done.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: I my life and I have no value.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a hell of a place to be and a hell of a place to climb out of.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Cute.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Horrible.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: I so relate to that.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think back on my teen years when I wrote the like poem about suicide and indicator.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I saw a therapist briefly.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, this is all coming back to me.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't thought about this in a really long time.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: I saw a therapist very briefly, not a great therapist.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, walk into her office.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: The office is just a mess.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was my mom was like, woo.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was on medication then too.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was, I was put on medication.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember exactly who put me on the medication.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't remember all of the details of it.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do remember going on medication and and then later, right?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like in my 20s, in my mid-20s, having that sense of, yeah, where did this come from?
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know where this came from.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: This came from me being a bad person.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: This came from me being ill-equipped at life.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just so different from everyone else.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't get the rule book.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: I never figured it out.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: I never I am other.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: I am other.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: Unless, yes.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was so convinced that the comparison, oof, the comparison of looking around and seeing that everyone else had this whole life thing figured out.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: And man, they were kind of crushing it.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: It sure looks that way.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I just couldn't.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, that sense of depression was completely tied to my sense of self-worth and my belief in myself and my my belief in my ability to care for myself and navigate in the world, which again, I was highly successful.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: But this belief was no, you're not.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: You have ruined everything.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Time to tap out.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that wild?
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: What a lie.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: So scary.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was a reasonable person and reasonably intelligent.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I have never been less resourced than I was when I was depressed.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: I was just like, I had no solutions, I had no curiosity, I didn't call a friend.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I might add, not one person said to me, Hey, you okay?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: You should get that checked.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I always say, if I limped for two years, I would have been you get an x-ray.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: If I cleared my throat for two years, it would have been you should see somebody.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: I said I wanted to die.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: And people were like, you, she's not fun anymore.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and it's like that was really serious.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's a strange thing.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's why we're having this conversation because we need to understand it internally.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: And people, hopefully, some of whom are watching, are going to be able to better support the people in their lives who are not themselves.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you don't have to know the list, just like, what's up, Asia?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you used to like this, you used to do this, you used to shower, you know, you used to not have your room look like it does.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: What's going on?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that can start what could save people like you and me from a really serious and potentially fatal downward spiral.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: You saying all that brings up two things for me.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: One is, and I I want to pop back to this.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm saying it to remember it, is how we in our family systems, we in society, how we talk slash don't talk about emotions kind of in general.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're getting a little bit better at it.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: But in my family system and in where I grew up, it just was not something that we discussed.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you're talking about some of these other elements, right?
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: The like messiness, being unkempt, being no longer sometimes even able.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even an unwillingness, but even able to shower.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: I remember laying on my bathroom floor.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: The shower is going.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: I made it into the bathroom.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: I turned on the shower and feeling so heavy and weighted down, the thought of raising my to lather my hair, it felt like such hard work.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: Man, how that shows up and just it like validated those belief systems, though.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh like look around.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Look around, Asia.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do it.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: See?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: What a mess you are.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: What a what a cycle.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even remember what your original question was.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's okay because I think that we're gonna wrap up this first part because I I want to sort of leave people with that visual because it's so powerful.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: We'll end here.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: We are gonna come back.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: Asia will be here next week as well to continue this discussion.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: And some of the things we want to talk about are how you tell somebody you're depressed, how you support somebody who is, and how you ask for help yourself when you need it.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: So please come back, join us next week as we continue this discussion.