Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / The View from Rwanda

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The View from Rwanda · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:00
  Music Music
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  Hey everyone,
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  welcome to episode number 46 of the Deep Grace Diving podcast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can you believe it?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Tim Wright,
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  SPEAKER_00: along with John Burgess and Terry Summers,
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  SPEAKER_00: and today we're going to do something a bit different.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're going to take a pause in our Bible study,
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  and we're going to take a little mental trip over to the
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  country of Rwanda.
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  SPEAKER_00: John and I just got back from there.
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  And look at the story of what Jesus is up to over there,
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  because it's a fascinating story.
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  And we had a chance to visit with some Christian people over there,
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  hear their story.
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  Since our last episode,
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  I think this is the first time that we have recorded since I retired.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is airing probably is a month after I've retired.
• 1:02
  I finally took my bathrobe off so that the two of you wouldn't
• 1:05
  see me in my bathrobe.
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  SPEAKER_00: I still haven't showered since I retired.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Can't find my toothbrush.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: As you can see, my hair is just really grown out.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's bushy.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a mess.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a mess.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the corner that I set up for my fetal position,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: the little blankets and stuff,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're still okay.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we're good.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I do want to say that this is unrelated,
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  SPEAKER_02: but the 46th episode is one episode older than I am.
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  SPEAKER_02: How curious is that?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's just interesting.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Wives are laughter, John.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm not tracking you on that.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: You'll always be 32 to me, Terry.
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  SPEAKER_01: Always.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, the math was 45, but it's okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, uh, as I mentioned, John and I, uh, went to Rwanda.
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  SPEAKER_00: We just got back a couple of weeks ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was my sixth trip over there.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was John's first.
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  SPEAKER_00: And just as a quick story of how we got there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you a little bit about the country and then we'll,
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  SPEAKER_00: we'll just talk about some of our impressions and,
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  SPEAKER_00: and,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: some stories about our brothers and sisters over there.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
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  SPEAKER_00: Over 20 years ago,
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  SPEAKER_00: my daughter Alicia was in school in England,
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  SPEAKER_00: and she wanted to do her master's paper on the genocide in Rwanda,
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  SPEAKER_00: which took place in 1994.
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  And specifically,
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  she wanted to look at the impact of the genocide on women.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I knew very little about Rwanda.
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  I don't know where I was when all this was happening,
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  wasn't paying attention.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just knew she wanted to fly to Africa.
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  And what I knew about Rwanda at the time was that it had just
• 2:51
  had a genocide.
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  SPEAKER_00: So she knew nobody there, had no contacts whatsoever.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I quickly got online.
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  SPEAKER_00: This was back probably 2003 maybe.
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  And got online,
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  sent an email off to the Lutheran Church in Rwanda,
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  which I knew nothing about.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just said, hey, my daughter's coming.
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  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't know anybody.
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  Is there a way that we can get somebody to sort of hang out
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  with her,
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  so on and so forth?
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So she went.
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  SPEAKER_00: I read her paper.
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  SPEAKER_00: I edited her paper for her.
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  SPEAKER_00: And as I read her paper and edited it,
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  SPEAKER_00: I just had this stirring in my soul to get to Rwanda myself.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it was.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just connected with the people through her paper.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so Alicia and I,
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  SPEAKER_00: along with some friends,
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  SPEAKER_00: Joe and Michelle Hellanen,
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  SPEAKER_00: planned a trip to Rwanda for February of 2005.
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  We were gonna go over there to begin a relationship between our
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  friends in Rwanda
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  SPEAKER_00: and Community Church of Joy,
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  SPEAKER_00: where I was the associate pastor.
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  SPEAKER_00: But in the meantime,
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  SPEAKER_00: we felt called to start Community of Grace,
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  SPEAKER_00: which started in March of 2005,
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  SPEAKER_00: for those of you keeping score.
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  SPEAKER_00: So a month before we started our new church, we went to Rwanda.
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  began a relationship with the Lutheran Church over there and
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  have been in a
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  SPEAKER_00: relationship with them for over 20 years.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it has been a partnership.
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  SPEAKER_00: It has been a friendship.
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  SPEAKER_00: We've grown to really love our friends over there.
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  SPEAKER_00: Seen a lot of changes in that country.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so before we talk a little bit about the country itself and get some
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  SPEAKER_00: impressions from John,
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  SPEAKER_00: just a little background.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I encourage you,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you're interested at all,
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  go and just do a quick Google search of Rwanda because the
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  history is quite diverse.
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  John and I and our group had a chance to go and see a facsimile
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  of the old palace
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  SPEAKER_00: for the king of Rwanda.
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  And then we actually walked through the palace that the
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  Belgians built for him.
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  SPEAKER_00: So at one time, Rwanda was ruled by a king.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was then colonized by the Germans and then the Belgians.
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  And the Germans and the Belgians came in and did some not such
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  great things.
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  SPEAKER_00: One of them,
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  SPEAKER_00: many people suggest,
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  SPEAKER_00: is that they created animosity between the two groups in Rwanda,
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  SPEAKER_00: the Hutus and the Tutsis,
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  SPEAKER_00: who had gotten along prior to that.
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  Belgians used it as a way to gain some political power and
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  political capital and
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  SPEAKER_00: created some real divisions between these two groups of people who called
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  SPEAKER_00: themselves Rwandans.
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  SPEAKER_00: That led to ongoing skirmishes,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh, massacres, uh, for over 30 years.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it finally reached its high point.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I don't use high as in good.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
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  SPEAKER_00: but on April 1st,
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  SPEAKER_00: I believe,
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  SPEAKER_00: 1994,
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  SPEAKER_00: after several months of getting the people ready for this,
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  SPEAKER_00: the Hutus unleashed,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: a genocide on their Tutsi brothers and sisters,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: massacring them.
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  And that's not an understatement in some of the most horrific
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  ways that you can imagine.
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  SPEAKER_00: Over a million people were killed in the span of three months.
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  SPEAKER_00: The rest of the world stood by and watched.
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  The rest of the world refused to use the word genocide because
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  once you use the
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  SPEAKER_00: word genocide,
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  SPEAKER_00: then you have to act.
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  SPEAKER_00: Our government was complicit in this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Many others didn't.
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  And one of the things that horrified John was finding out that
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  the Catholic Church
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  SPEAKER_00: there was complicit in many of the deaths.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so this thing just tore the country apart, as you can imagine.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yet,
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  SPEAKER_00: 20 years later,
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  it's a remarkable story of a country that has worked very hard
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  to come back together.
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  SPEAKER_00: And imagine...
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll tell this story later, but they've come back together.
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  SPEAKER_00: They had, of course, perpetrators they had to deal with.
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  SPEAKER_00: Their prisons were over full.
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  SPEAKER_00: Some of them still are.
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  One of the ways that they took care of all the different cases
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  was they created
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  SPEAKER_00: what they called the Gachacha Court,
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  SPEAKER_00: which means on the grass.
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  And so the people themselves would sit in a circle and the
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  perpetrators and the
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  SPEAKER_00: victims would stand up in front of each other.
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  SPEAKER_00: and talk together as best they could.
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  And so their justice system became more about reconciliation
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  than about punishing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And now, Kigali, the capital, is sort of an international center.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's got some of the nicest hotels you can imagine.
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  SPEAKER_00: The roads are beautifully done.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's in elevation.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's called the Land of a Thousand Hills.
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  SPEAKER_00: And John can tell you,
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  SPEAKER_00: every time you turn a corner,
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  SPEAKER_00: you see another breathtaking view just everywhere,
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  SPEAKER_00: everywhere.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's a small landlocked country in East Africa.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there are people there all over the place all the time.
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  SPEAKER_00: You can be in the remotest parts of the bush,
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  SPEAKER_00: and there are just all kinds of people walking around.
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  SPEAKER_00: You have no idea where they're going.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when you see that,
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  you sort of get a sense of how quickly a million people could
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  have been killed
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  SPEAKER_00: because they're just all over.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is neighbors killing neighbors, friends killing friends.
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  SPEAKER_00: One quick story from a time I was there last time, no, two times ago.
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  Rwanda has a monthly work day where the whole country shuts
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  down and people go out
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  SPEAKER_00: and work and they just beautify the country.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we were there for that.
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  So we went out and we did some work out in Niamhata where the
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  churches that we help support.
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  And someone handed me a machete,
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  which was the tool used for the massacre.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the machete, of course, was used to knock down weeds and stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: Very, very creepy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So then we went to a village that has been put together.
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  It was an intentional reconciliation village where perpetrators
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  and victims lived together.
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  So the victims know that these people,
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  their neighbors,
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  they were perpetrators.
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  SPEAKER_00: They were killers.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they're practicing.
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  SPEAKER_00: You want to talk about forgiveness and Christianity.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're practicing it.
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  I found out that the guy who gave me the machete to use was a perpetrator.
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  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Tim.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you just think how stunning a moment to stand next.
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  And I have a picture with the guy to stand next to this guy who
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  used a machete to kill people.
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  And now he's living in a village with people who were killed by
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  family members who
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  SPEAKER_00: were killed by machetes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they're trying to learn how to live together.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to make it easier than what it is.
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  It doesn't mean that all the pain and heartache has gone away
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  because it hasn't.
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  SPEAKER_00: But in the midst of all of that, life is showing itself.
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  SPEAKER_00: Churches are doing ministry and mission.
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  And so I think it's just an incredibly heartbreaking story in
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  so many ways of the
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  SPEAKER_00: sort of what colonization did to many of our friends in Africa.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  sort of imposing westernized values on people who have a
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  different cultural mindset,
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  SPEAKER_00: what a genocide does,
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  SPEAKER_00: what hatred can do.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then to see a country come through all of that with,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's other things going on,
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  SPEAKER_00: but with a sense of grace and purpose together.
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  SPEAKER_00: that we're going to make sure we don't have this happen again.
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  SPEAKER_00: One other comment, then I'll turn over to John.
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  SPEAKER_00: And Terry, by the way, is you.
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  SPEAKER_00: She's the audience today.
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  SPEAKER_00: So as we talk, she can sort of ask questions on your behalf.
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  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that they've done with their genocide memorials,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is different,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: than Germany,
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  SPEAKER_00: is they've left them as they were.
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  SPEAKER_00: So in Germany, for example, if you go visit a concentration camp, it's
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  kind of sanitized it's cleaned up a bit when you walk into
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  these churches where the
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  massacres occurred and you see the blood stains and you see the
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  clothes on the
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  ground they've got but they've got skulls and bones they they
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  have decided they're
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  SPEAKER_00: not going to clean this up they want you to see
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  SPEAKER_00: the horror of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's hard even to hear,
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  but when you look at some of these skulls and you can see where
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  the machete hit them,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: when you see,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: one,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: one,
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  SPEAKER_00: they pointed out in the church where they showed,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: it was a,
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  a jacket and you could see that the arms had been tied together
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  behind the person's back.
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  SPEAKER_03: Um, um,
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  SPEAKER_00: So they're not shying away from their history.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're not shying away from,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I'm not saying Germans are either,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they're really not shying away from it.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're owning it.
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  SPEAKER_00: They let people see it.
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  But I think that's what makes then the beauty of the country
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  all the more remarkable.
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  To see the beauty that we were able to see through the filter
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  of that kind of horror,
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  SPEAKER_00: absolutely amazing.
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  So I've been there six times and you don't want to go over
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  there just for the genocide,
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  but you got to go over there to at least have that
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  understanding so that you
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  SPEAKER_00: appreciate really the rebuild that's been taking place
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  SPEAKER_00: there over the many, many years.
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  Um,
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  so,
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  and,
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  and then just one final thing,
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  the Lutheran church had been booted.
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  They left in the forties and they didn't come back until after
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  the genocide.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the Lutheran church there is fairly new and see that they've,
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  SPEAKER_00: they have built in that amount of time.
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  SPEAKER_00: They've got 20 to 30 congregations.
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  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just, it's amazing work and that they're not the only story.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, um,
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's some of the background.
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  SPEAKER_00: John, give us some of your impressions.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're a first-timer.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, can I say one more thing?
• 13:27
  The Gorilla of the Mists,
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  or In the Mists,
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  if you've ever seen that movie.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's where the gorillas are.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in Rwanda.
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  SPEAKER_02: And just really quick, since you mentioned the film.
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  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, John.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's like you were getting relegated to the backboard.
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  SPEAKER_02: Is John here even?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not here.
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  SPEAKER_02: Who's John?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:47
  isn't there a movie um i can't think of the actor's name that
• 13:52
  sort of gives us a
• 13:54
  peek into this i cannot yeah hotel rwanda yes is that okay yes
• 14:00
  yes and john where
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: did we have dinner
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  SPEAKER_01: At the now renamed Hotel Rwanda.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: It actually wasn't called Hotel Rwanda.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was the Hotel de Mil Colleen or however it's pronounced.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:13
  And the hotel in the movie looks nothing like the actual hotel,
• 14:16
  but we had dinner there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I had a lovely dinner, by the way.
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  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, John.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: We both sat in the hotel.
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  I don't think anybody's tuning into this to really hear me talk
• 14:29
  for a while,
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  SPEAKER_01: but thank you for a minute.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: You keep mentioning how beautiful the country is.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: It is a beautiful country, for sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that we spent a lot of time driving around.
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  I would not be surprised if we got to 1,000 Hills twice,
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  it felt like,
• 14:45
  on a couple of days.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: The people are also beautiful, and I don't just mean like
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  SPEAKER_01: they're beautiful on the outside,
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  SPEAKER_01: which they are,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: the happiness and the acceptance and the love,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: and I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: that just is effusive through these folks,
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  SPEAKER_01: which always amazes me.
• 15:06
  I mean,
• 15:06
  I think that,
• 15:06
  like,
• 15:07
  there's,
• 15:07
  you know,
• 15:07
  God's clearly at work there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I want to put some context around, so,
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  SPEAKER_01: I had spent a lot of time researching.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to be smart on the genocide before I got there.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's 26 hours of travel to get there.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I was watching movies and reading stuff.
• 15:26
  And then we got there and we spent quite a bit of time at these memorials.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And a couple of times I said, tell Tim, I'm like, I got nothing left.
• 15:35
  I got to go out and enjoy some sunshine for a little bit and
• 15:39
  take a break from the
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: absolute indescribable horror.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: What happened in the 90s.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I learned more,
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: part of what really troubled me and still does is,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: they had some troubles in the 50s.
• 15:56
  And I don't mean to minimize that for anybody who's listening
• 15:59
  who knows way more
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: than I do,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: but there were some troubles in the 50s.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, the church was a place of protection and refuge.
• 16:07
  Yep.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so for the people in the 90s that were facing just horrific carnage,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: they went into these,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: and it wasn't the entire Catholic Church,
• 16:20
  but certainly certain Catholic parishes invited them in for the
• 16:24
  purpose of knowing
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: that they were gonna be butchered later.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: so before we leave,
• 16:30
  we have to turn that question back on Tim because there's so
• 16:33
  much evil there.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's just completely overwhelming.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I said it one more time.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: I know I got you,
• 16:40
  but just in case I didn't say it one more time that the
• 16:42
  Catholic church invited them.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to be careful because there's,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:46
  we ended up spending some time with the Catholic priest there
• 16:49
  and sort of understanding.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not, it's not the entire, all Catholic churches.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I got it.
• 16:54
  But there are certain Catholic parishes who knowing people
• 16:59
  would remember the
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: troubles in the fifties,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: invited them in to the parish and,
• 17:06
  for the purpose of getting them all collected in one place so
• 17:09
  they could be
• 17:09
  butchered later and in churches that's right yep in the
• 17:14
  churches yeah oh and it's
• 17:16
  just you know it just is beyond imagination and then i think
• 17:23
  that the you know the
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: next little data point that just keeps hitting me is
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's only,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's been,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: we were there for,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: and when we were there,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: it was the 31st anniversary of the genocide.
• 17:39
  And so there was a lot of throughout the country,
• 17:42
  signs hanging and that sort of thing.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And just the goodness and the resilience of the people.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: they've been living in with it longer than I have,
• 17:52
  but just the goodness and the resilience to come back from that
• 17:56
  and talk about
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: things like,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: our church is closed because of building safety code violations,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: but we're still here worshiping.
• 18:04
  We're just trying to worship in homes and trying to spread the
• 18:08
  goodness to our neighbors.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me was the dichotomy of the horror.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And on the other side,
• 18:17
  the absolute beauty and goodness is just such a stark contrast
• 18:23
  and just so shocking.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'll end with this and then I'll stop.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So part of one of the memorials we went through,
• 18:31
  we went through sort of the despair and the tragedy and the
• 18:38
  butchery of the genocide.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the end,
• 18:43
  they had another room that was dedicated to other genocides
• 18:48
  that have happened in
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: the world.
• 18:49
  Which was,
• 18:51
  and it was a little bit like the Holocaust was there for sure.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it was also a little bit like,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: let's not forget about these people and these people and these people.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then to go through that room,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: you're just,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: honestly,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Tim,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: at a certain point,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: what are we doing here?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just so horrific overall.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then paired with just uncontainable beauty.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we had actually taken a day at the very end,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: my friend Colby and I,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: to go on a one-day safari in their national park.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just amazing to spend 10 hours back in a car,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: but 10 hours driving around seeing God's creation.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And God's creation,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:33
  we had lions 10 feet away from the car and rhinos and elephants
• 19:37
  that looked like
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: the size of my house walking by.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really nice to see nature's beauty.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: How is it that the group of you that went, went?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was Colby.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Is that the name I caught just now?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: So when Alicia and I went there last year,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: right after my 40th anniversary,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: we had a 40th anniversary celebration.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Two days later we went and it was really meant to be my last trip there.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_03: Last year?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we went there because the church in Niyamata,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: which is about 30 minutes from the capital,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Kigali,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: that's the church we've been sponsoring and working with for 20 years.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Their building had been shut down.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't meet government requirements.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so our congregation helped them build a new worship center.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so Alicia and I were there for the grand opening.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, wow.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we got to go out and for a couple of days,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: we just drove around the country and visited other churches.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then on Saturday,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: that Saturday,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: we went and they had a big two,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: three hour celebration and they had a big buffet for the community.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just a wonderful experience.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was there,
• 20:55
  when I spoke to them and then the next day I spoke at the
• 20:59
  church in Kigali,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: I said,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: this is my last trip here.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm retiring next year.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: but I promise you our new pastor will be supportive.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when I got back a couple of days later,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: one of our staff members,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Diane said,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: you really should bring Josh over there.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I said, yeah, I really should.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we put that trip together.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so two days after I retired,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Alicia and Josh and I,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Josh from Community of Grace flew over and then John met us there.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: and then Colby,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: who is a part of community of grace,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: he's the new board president met us there.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, and so it was the five of us.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then Alicia and Josh and I came back early and,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: John and Colby got to go up on the safari.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why we went.
• 21:47
  So it was a chance for Josh and Colby in particular to sort of
• 21:52
  see it now that I'm
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: not there anymore.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And John, I'd asked to come just because I had a hunch he would enjoy it.
• 21:59
  And he's been at Grace for 20 years and knows all about this
• 22:02
  ministry and seeing it
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: as something special.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's why we went.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people were very...
• 22:10
  So the interesting thing is most of the churches there are
• 22:12
  closed right now.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we never quite really know.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:19
  At first they were closed down because the government said they
• 22:23
  had to meet certain
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: building codes,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: which is great.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we appreciate that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: One of the codes was they should have toilets.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that was always nice because up until that point,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 22:33
  you took a sip of water before breakfast and then you didn't do
• 22:36
  anything until
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: about 10 o'clock at night.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: Got it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:41
  But now it looks like the government is trying to sort of up
• 22:49
  the game for churches.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: They want their pastors to be professionally trained.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And they want to root out churches.
• 22:56
  sort of the carpetbagger pastors who come in,
• 22:59
  they have no training whatsoever.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: They just shut up, set up shop.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: They make a lot of money and then they leave.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:05
  I don't know what a lot of money means there because they're
• 23:07
  still their cost to
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: live or their wages aren't high,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: high.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, the churches have all been closed down.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So they have to get,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: each church needs to get a thousand signatures from the community to say,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: it's okay to open your church.
• 23:19
  Pastor needs to be professionally trained within the Rwandan
• 23:22
  guidelines and their
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: building needs to be up to code.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: So in Niamhata,
• 23:27
  And they've got,
• 23:27
  I don't know if they had all the signatures,
• 23:29
  but the pastors trained.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: They got a beautiful building, beautiful building.
• 23:34
  In fact,
• 23:34
  the government in Niamhata uses their building for their meetings.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: But they couldn't worship.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: We couldn't have a worship service there.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we went down there and we met with their leaders.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then we went to another place and met with leaders.
• 23:49
  The only place that we could worship was our last day that was
• 23:52
  in Kigali,
• 23:53
  the capital area.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: at the Nehemiah Church there.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And John, how long was that worship service?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was like eight and a half hours.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was three hours.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: For sure, three, yeah.
• 24:06
  And I was the guest speaker,
• 24:07
  and at two hours and 45 minutes,
• 24:09
  they brought me up.
• 24:11
  And I thought,
• 24:12
  look,
• 24:12
  I know these folks are used to long service,
• 24:14
  but I can see.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: How long did I preach, John?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it was a strong five or six minutes.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's with translation.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what translation.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now I will say this, the music and the singing were unbelievable.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like some of the most beautiful things I'd ever heard for sure.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and then it had been going so long, it was a little bit hot.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And when they called Tim up, Tim gave a great grace-based sermon.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was about, I think it was only five or six, seven minutes.
• 24:46
  And then Tim sat down and then later on,
• 24:49
  they were confused that that was the sermon or not.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: So they asked him to come up for the sermon.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, no, no, no.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: That was it.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can almost feel the crowd ready to applaud.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter where you live, what your culture is.
• 25:06
  There are certain biological things that happen in your body
• 25:09
  when you sit too long.
• 25:10
  But we were very fortunate in that the choir from Neomata was
• 25:15
  able to come up and sing.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that was beautiful.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: They were beautiful.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: We had like four different choirs sing.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And but it was a beautiful service.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: But three hours is a little different than.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Did you happen to.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Did you happen to post?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: I saw something super cool on social media.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Did you post from that service?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we did.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: We posted some of the music and so on.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Just beautiful stuff.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of of what's happening with the church there.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of a mixed bag right now because they are closed.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: What I appreciate about the Lutheran church is they,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: and they're in some transition themselves right now,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: but they do have some things in place.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: They've got some churches where some really good things are happening.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're having to step back a little bit and say,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: because buildings are important in that culture as they are in ours.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the one church we didn't get to that we were supposed to,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: they've got a nice,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: good,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: healthy congregation going,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: but there's no way that their building would ever meet code.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to have to tear the building down and rebuild.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, really?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: So they're trying to figure out if they can afford that.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: I will tell you this,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: that we rebuilt,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Community Grace rebuilt the church in Nehemiah,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: and I think it cost us $36,000.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that building, John, am I right, is beautiful.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's fantastic.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's just beautiful.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Size-wise, liken it to something.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think they could fit a couple hundred people in there, if not 300.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a big, long building, kind of marble-looking floors.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just very, very nice.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Nice exterior.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: They've got a couple of toilets that flush.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: The first toilet we built for them was just a hole in the ground.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:19
  it's not inexpensive from the United States of America
• 27:22
  perspective to help them
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: build new buildings.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: For them,
• 27:27
  they just sort of have to decide what's the best use of money
• 27:29
  for this area versus
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: that area.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think they're wrestling with that right now.
• 27:34
  They're trying to build a seminary so that they can train
• 27:39
  Rwandan pastors in Rwanda,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: which is what the Rwandan government wants anyway.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: we didn't get to see it this time,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: but we did last time,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: when we were worshiping with our friends in Rwanda.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: albeit it was a special celebration to open their church,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: they had several hundred people there,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: and the community was there.
• 28:01
  And John,
• 28:02
  this might be interesting,
• 28:04
  just as a way to kind of hear how we helped.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Tell them the story about Pastor Eddie's car.
• 28:11
  Yeah,
• 28:11
  I was actually thinking of that because I think you'll like this,
• 28:13
  Terry.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if we're giving Terry a lot of time for questions.
• 28:16
  But a couple of things that I really loved about this was the
• 28:21
  church in Nehemiah.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's closed.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's people trying to figure out what worship looks like.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the pastor there is a young guy and just very servant-hearted.
• 28:32
  And through the connection with Grace,
• 28:35
  Grace was able to help him purchase a car.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: So until then, he had a bicycle.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody else had told me that when you go on home visits,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: and you bicycle there,
• 28:47
  you enter the home and you're just all sweaty because it's hot
• 28:50
  and humid out.
• 28:51
  And sometimes that diminishes the appetite for talking to the
• 28:57
  local pastor.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that was part of it.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: But the car is now called by the community,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: the ambulance,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: because everybody knows in the community,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: people of any faith or no faith,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: that if you are a woman in labor,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: if you...
• 29:14
  that Pastor Eddie gets the call to pick you up and take you to
• 29:18
  the hospital.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, this is like the feet of Jesus in 2025.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my goodness.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is just such a beautiful story, for sure.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they're not sponsors, but you'll appreciate this, Terry.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's a Kia.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: A Kia.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: A Kia.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: So my dad would have been very, very happy.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we got to ride in it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: We got pictures of us riding in it.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful car.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: So cool.
• 29:42
  So the roads,
• 29:43
  and I just learned this today,
• 29:44
  the roads,
• 29:45
  John,
• 29:45
  were built by China.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the roads are beautiful until you get into the country.
• 29:53
  And then they are like riding a roller coaster,
• 29:58
  potholes and dirt and stuff.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, to have a car,
• 30:02
  even versus a motorcycle for those kinds of things has really
• 30:06
  made the difference for him.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that was one of the needs that was raised to us again,
• 30:11
  John was gone by then,
• 30:12
  but a couple of the pastors could really use cars.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when you hear a story like that,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: that that car not only becomes transportation,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: but it becomes an ambulance for the community,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: you think that's a pretty darn good investment.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great investment.
• 30:27
  And a way to be Jesus to the community in ways that maybe you
• 30:31
  can't otherwise.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's an amazing country.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's still on the move.
• 30:38
  I do think it's one of the countries that other African
• 30:41
  countries are looking at in
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: terms of redevelopment.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And growth and some of the things that they're doing.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, they don't have it all perfect.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, we weren't wanting for good food.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: That was one of my questions I wanted to ask you.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: What did y'all eat?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Pizza.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Pizza.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: I had pizza a couple times.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you would.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're a pizza fan.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And for breakfast, it would be rolls and meat.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: John, I know you guys went.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us about the experience you had with Alicia.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we went to the Women's Center in the Capitol.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a place where women can come,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: nearly all women,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: can come and get vocational training.
• 31:32
  So they specialize in sewing and in hair braiding,
• 31:36
  which apparently are both great vocations.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: And as part of that, then we rounded the corner and...
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: There was a Muslim gal,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: and I know this because it was in the middle of their holiday,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: and I think she'd been fasting for over three weeks,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: and she was the cook.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So she cooked all this incredible vegetarian food,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: served it to us,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: and then the poor thing couldn't eat any.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: I felt a little guilty, but it was...
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it was fun.
• 32:05
  I don't eat a lot of vegetarian here in the States,
• 32:08
  but it was it was great.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: sweet potatoes and regular potatoes and all kinds of good stuff,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: something with a curry in it.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I tried some of that.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was all good.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: The yeah, the food was was really outstanding.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was for sure above all my expectations all around.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: They've really got some high class restaurants there.
• 32:28
  You,
• 32:28
  you know,
• 32:28
  you,
• 32:29
  you,
• 32:29
  you're always careful when you're in places like that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just make sure what you're eating is.
• 32:33
  And,
• 32:34
  but they always brought us to restaurants that had food that was,
• 32:37
  they knew would be okay.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I do, I know we've gone 32 minutes, which is okay.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: I do want.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: You said,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know you were going to say I have a.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: My,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: my,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: mine is going to circle back to John's question about the evil.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:53
  and um what where that comes from so yours yours probably isn't
• 32:57
  quite maybe this
• 32:58
  will be the answer like tim i know with you being having been
• 33:01
  there six trips i
• 33:03
  don't think i knew that was there something this trip that
• 33:08
  surprised you or that
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: was so so new that you had not taken that in in that way as of yet
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 33:19
  there was something new for me this time in that our last stop
• 33:23
  of our trip was
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: visiting the president or the king's palace.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it gave me a little different perspective on the country.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: My experience of the country was genocide, recovery.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the president who's been overseeing all that.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was sort of in the dark in terms of that they had a king at all.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that was just really interesting to me.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: An interesting side of the history that puts into context,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 34:01
  how white people came in thinking we got a better plan for your
• 34:07
  life than you have.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this isn't a broad brush against all white people.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a,
• 34:14
  it's a broad stroke against certain systems that believe that
• 34:17
  certain people are
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: smarter than other people.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Certain people have power over other people.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:25
  to see this beautiful pastoral country then colonized and then
• 34:31
  turned on each other,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: But then to see what's happened now is great.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we saw the royal cows.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: They have a cow that's endemic.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Endemic, is that the word?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cow that is only in that area.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't remember the name of it,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: but beautiful,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: beautiful cows with big horns that grow up in the air.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was sort of the new thing for me.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of just the history of it.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:03
  John asked the question,
• 35:04
  and I think it's good to maybe just end a little bit on this.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: We can't go deep on it.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: How do you go deep into evil and ever figure it out?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: But this will be airing on the Wednesday before Good Friday.
• 35:20
  And Good Friday is the story of evil unleashed in all of its
• 35:28
  meanness and harshness
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: onto the Creator itself.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: And in the end, it can't win.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Why is there evil in the world?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why do some churches like these Catholic parishes,
• 35:46
  why did they open their doors to welcome people and say you're
• 35:50
  safe here only to
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: turn around and let them be killed?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 35:54
  You can use things like this is what happens when religion gets
• 35:59
  too closely tied to politics.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:02
  This is what happens when religion is based on ideologies
• 36:06
  rather than on theology.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is what happens when we look at people,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: whoever they are,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: and think that they are less than,
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's calling Hutus cockroaches,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Tutsis cockroaches,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: giving us permission to slaughter them with these machetes.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or to say that the Jews are less than human,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: which gives us permission to put them into furnaces.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or even in our country,
• 36:37
  to say things about certain people groups that allows us to rob
• 36:42
  them of their
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: rights and their privileges.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's just something about the insidiousness of power and hatred,
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: entitlement,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: and all of that,
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: the full force of that,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: on Good Friday, falls onto Jesus.
• 37:03
  And he has to take it all and absorb it all like human beings
• 37:07
  have been doing since
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: the beginning of the world.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: He took those machete blows.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: He took that sulfur that kills people.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he took the abuse and the hatred and the racism.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: He took all of that onto himself.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's no wonder he said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the question John's basically asking.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's no wonder he said that.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: And yet when he breathes his last, it's his father that meets him.
• 37:37
  And three days later,
• 37:40
  death finds out that it doesn't have more power than life.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean that evil's gone.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: It just means it's not going to have the final word.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Rwanda serves as kind of a story of that.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: the rebirth of the church in many ways,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: the reconciliation,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: really hard forgiveness that has taken place in that venue,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: in that country,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: the likes of which I don't think many of us could ever do,
• 38:07
  to stand face-to-face with someone who used a machete to hack
• 38:10
  your neighbor to
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: death and you have to say to them,
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: I forgive you.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why you have to forgive them is for your own sanity.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a story of resurrection.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: out of the real depths of evil and hatred.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: So all of that stuff goes into John's question.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: All of that stuff goes into Good Friday and,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 38:36
  the hope of Easter that we can be different because of the
• 38:40
  power of the gospel.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: We can make different choices because of the power of the gospel.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: We can choose life.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we're certainly seeing that in so much of the story of Rwanda.
• 38:50
  which has been deeply moving to me and I know to John and
• 38:54
  others who were there.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: So does that help a little bit, John?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's their deep questions and we'll keep coming back to them.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: In fact,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: when we get back with our Bible study next week,
• 39:03
  we start that journey because we're going on a little trip down
• 39:07
  to Palm Sunday in
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: our next podcast.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's going to take us to Good Friday and Easter.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you everybody for listening in.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: This was a little bit of a different deal for us,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: but we're glad you,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: we're glad you enjoyed it,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: even though we don't know if you did or not,
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: but we're going to assume you did.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to assume you loved it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 39:25
  And so thank you,
• 39:26
  Terry,
• 39:26
  for being the audience and asking a few clarification questions.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, John, for your insights.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you everybody for listening.
• 39:34
  Hey,
• 39:34
  if you enjoyed it,
• 39:35
  share with your friends,
• 39:35
  be back with us next time.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: The one of the Deep Grace Diving Podcasts.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: We are here with you next week.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, everyone.