Latest / The Business of Alignment - Powered by The E1B2 Collective / Let’s Talk Performance Management w/ Judah Plaut of Canon

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Let’s Talk Performance Management w/ Judah Plaut of Canon · The Business of Alignment - Powered by The E1B2 Collective

0:02
Here we are. So, Judah, I appreciate you
0:04
coming onto this podcast here. I've said this a ton of times,
0:08
so I probably need to decide for saying it.
0:10
But I will say it one more time. I'm always appreciative.
0:13
I've done almost 800 of these conversations in different ways.
0:19
I don't know if I'm going to stop at 8:00 or stop at 9:00 or
0:23
stop at 1000. I got to stop at a round Number.
0:27
Probably let's just call it 1000, I'll probably stop at, but
0:30
I enjoy each one of these conversations and as I've done
0:33
and and develop my career a little bit more I I have the
0:36
honor of talking to people at this level.
0:38
So I'm very appreciative. So for those listening, we have
0:42
Judah plant or no, not plant. Oh, let me how do you pronounce
0:45
the last name? That's right, endanger the.
0:49
Plant. Clout there it is.
0:52
Perfect, perfect that is. My apologies to the listeners
0:54
here, don't want to butcher that last name again.
0:57
But no, you're with Cannon which is a great organization.
0:59
I think we all have heard or knowing about that that
1:03
organization in different ways. So please give us your your,
1:07
your background, your role with Cannon, what you're doing here
1:10
and and and frankly how you got into HR overall and then we'll
1:13
hop into the into the episode here.
1:15
Sure. So first of all, thanks so much
1:17
for having me, Anthony. And don't worry about that last
1:21
name, it's been butchered much worse than that, so.
1:24
I thought I saw it. End good company.
1:27
You're in good company. Yeah.
1:29
So I'm Judah Plow. I'm from Long Island.
1:32
I have a background in organizational psychology.
1:35
So you know with with that I've spent.
1:39
In my career thus far, really working internally at several
1:41
large organizations, NHR specifically in talent
1:45
management and learning and development space, you know,
1:49
I've always been really passionate about organizational
1:52
culture, understanding how that's impacted, understanding
1:56
leadership impacts that. So you know, that's kind of the
1:59
passion. That's how I kind of got into it
2:01
currently. I like you said, I'm at Cannon.
2:04
I'm overseeing talent management practices there, which really
2:07
encompasses all processes and initiatives around performance,
2:12
engagement and development. Amazing, amazing.
2:16
And yes I will. I don't know why I thought I saw
2:19
an end there where you is, but but no, I I appreciate you being
2:24
on this episode in this podcast today, but let's start this one
2:27
before we hop on some of the the topics that we outlined.
2:31
What's your overall sense just personally not even directly
2:34
connected to Cannon, What's your overall state perspective of
2:39
where the world of work is today?
2:41
I think since 2020, here we are in 2023.
2:45
There's been a lot of changes and a lot of ups and downs, a
2:47
lot of pivots. I think technology is really
2:51
ramped up in the last three years as well and how
2:53
organizations can use utilize that?
2:56
Where is where is your State of the Union perspective overall?
3:00
Yeah, it's a great question. I think, I think the best way to
3:03
kind of think about it is contrasting with the ideal
3:07
state. So you know my view, I think we
3:11
all want to be working with a blend of high levels of
3:14
psychological safety, high levels of intrinsic motivation.
3:19
So I would say from what I can tell, most organizations are.
3:23
Missing the mark one way or the other, you have some who are
3:27
working in real mission driven companies that energy's there,
3:31
but maybe it's an environment that's maybe a little bit more
3:35
competitive, maybe lacks the safety needed to maximize on
3:37
creativity, avoid burnout and and those types of issues.
3:42
On the flip side, you have people and companies that are
3:44
maybe more so going through the motions, they're perfectly
3:47
happy. To do what's asked of them
3:50
aren't necessarily internally driven to push on their own
3:54
creating you know change and and a meaningful difference.
3:56
So it depends on the environment of course, but you definitely
4:00
see opportunities for betterment across the board.
4:03
Yeah, 100%. I would agree with that.
4:05
And would you say how is it being an HR practitioner
4:10
throughout the last three years or so?
4:12
Has it been, has it been? The bandwidth has been limited
4:17
there, you know, I've, you know, and then what I mean by that is
4:20
I've seen a lot of HR leaders the last probably 18 months or
4:23
so laid off for whatever reason. That's a whole another
4:26
conversation maybe we can get into.
4:28
I've seen a lot of priorities and strategies and and focus has
4:31
changed. So are you feeling, are you
4:34
feeling I don't want to use the word burnt out, but are you
4:36
feeling that things are just a bit heavy right now in the
4:41
industry, a lot, a lot on your plate?
4:43
Like what does that feel like emotionally for you?
4:46
Yeah, I mean there's definitely a lot going on and I think a lot
4:48
of the pressure comes from being able to pinpoint the ROIA lot of
4:56
of a lot of HR practices and and and I think sometimes you know
5:03
that kind of creates the that pressure like you're talking
5:06
about and I don't know I think I've been lucky the I I.
5:12
Was at a different organization before Cannon, just I only
5:15
switched over about a year and a half ago.
5:17
But I think over the that kind of time frame with with COVID
5:20
and all that, I've been in a couple of organizations that
5:23
really have valued what we're trying to do and have given us
5:30
that support. But you definitely hear about
5:32
it. You hear about all the
5:34
different. You know my shift changes I
5:38
think really from from the employee perspective as well in
5:41
terms of what work should be, what it means in today's day and
5:45
age. You know remote work is a is a
5:48
big part of that and and and all of that.
5:51
So it definitely comes and has a reflection in terms of the
5:56
culture we want to build. Sometimes it's I think it makes
6:01
things a little bit more challenging in terms of
6:03
engagement but it also can. Kind of help steer us in the
6:08
right direction. That makes sense.
6:10
No, I'm glad you went there as it pretends to.
6:14
I think the workforce being different, right, A lot of the
6:16
employees are looking for organizations that are a bit
6:20
more meaningful. I think employees are being
6:24
more, I think they're being more thoughtful about their work
6:28
nowadays than I think ever before.
6:30
I think they're realizing that there's a lot of different ways
6:33
to just financially take care of their family.
6:36
And so they want to be thoughtful about the
6:37
organization that they go that they choose.
6:40
You know, I remember being I've never been on a podcast,
6:42
probably 2021, maybe 2022. And I was saying, look, I would
6:49
personally advise certain employees depending on their
6:51
family situation, if they feel like they're not being taken
6:55
care of at an organization contextually to the way they
6:57
want to be taken care of. I make a strong argument that
7:01
they DoorDash, Lyft, Uber, do some subcontracting work just to
7:05
get the bills paid while they go on the interviews and be a
7:08
little bit more strategic and thoughtful about the
7:12
organizations that they choose. And I think that's probably the
7:16
first time that you probably can say employees have had that
7:20
power. Do you have any just quick
7:22
thoughts on that? Yeah, no, exactly.
7:23
I I think again the the way people are thinking about the
7:27
role work plays in their life is changing.
7:29
And so you know like you're pointing out for many it's not
7:34
the priority and it it it's a matter of paying the bills and
7:37
and so that has a big impact on obviously the you know the way
7:43
people are approaching work and where they're working.
7:47
But that also has to have a huge impact on how we.
7:50
Address the employee population and and engage with them and and
7:55
have them connect with the work. Exactly, exactly.
8:00
So let's do this. Let's get into one of these
8:01
topics here. I'm a big fan of all of them.
8:03
I'm looking at them right now. You know, performance management
8:06
processes. What what's your macro point of
8:10
view on performance management? And I'll give you kind of what I
8:13
mean by that. I've always looked at
8:16
performance management from the perspective of.
8:20
Hence the title E1B2. I've always looked at it from
8:23
the perspective of how can we learn more about the employee at
8:28
an individual level to shape and mold the processes from a
8:33
performance management perspective to be very new,
8:36
watched and flexible. I feel like at times certain
8:39
performance management processes and the way that they score and
8:43
and or rate or measure employees are super blanketed across.
8:48
And I just think there's too many contextual nuances in the
8:50
mix. So what are your, what's your
8:53
response to my overall kind of points of view on it and how I
8:57
want to see more process to be a little bit more flexible,
9:01
nuanced? And then what's your overall
9:03
perspective on performance management overall?
9:07
Yeah, so I think. I I mean, I I ideal state, yes,
9:11
of course there's differences in terms of how each manager
9:14
manages. There's between how each
9:17
employee is going to connect and communicate with that manager.
9:19
And so performance management should reflect that.
9:24
You know what a big piece of it is kind of setting that stage
9:28
and having that at least baseline for ensuring there's
9:31
some sort of accountability when it comes to assessing goals in
9:36
those sorts of. Things.
9:37
So you know, yeah, so I think ideal state that would be
9:43
wonderful, kind of hard to act on it I would say.
9:50
But you know in regards to the other question I I think you
9:54
know performance management it's it's really a system that the
9:59
company has in place that's really going to be the lunchpin
10:02
when it comes to setting the work environment.
10:05
Because nothing's really more impactful than the quality, the
10:07
quantity of the communication between manager and employees at
10:11
its core, Like I said, it's really keeping employees
10:14
accountable. Ideally, you're going to have
10:17
performance goals set at some interval, you're going to have
10:20
managers and employees reviewing these goals, assessing progress,
10:23
adjusting as necessary. But really can be so much more,
10:28
which you're alluding to. And I think performance,
10:30
engagement, development, they're all interlinked, so.
10:34
Setting an expectation for continuous communication is
10:37
really important and is really good.
10:39
And even further, I think those conversations are not just about
10:42
performance but they're also about career aspirations,
10:45
They're about individual purpose, overall wellbeing.
10:48
Then then, you know, then it becomes a foundation for
10:52
trusting relationships, open, transparent dialogue, which of
10:56
course is so, so critical. Do you, let me ask you this, do
11:00
you have a perspective on? Do you have a perspective on
11:06
individual managers being involved in the shaping and
11:11
molding of the performance management process?
11:15
Like is that something we are you as an HR leader that's
11:18
probably building some of these processes have experienced doing
11:21
that? Do you take your individual
11:23
manager or your department leaders perspective into you
11:27
considered it when you're trying to reshape?
11:30
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
11:32
I mean you want to get the users feedback, right?
11:35
So have a manager is 1 responsible to use the system,
11:39
you go through the process, whatever it is 100%.
11:41
You want to get that perspective of what is, how they're using
11:46
it, practically, how it feels and and all of that.
11:49
And then and then on the other side of it too, do you how often
11:54
and I know this varies based off of every company.
11:57
But how often do you personally or some of the leaders there at
12:00
Canon, how often do you confirm double click into the box of the
12:05
employees point of view like hey you know we built this process
12:09
process, you know we've worked with we've worked with the
12:12
management team with some of the leaders here to to make sure
12:15
that it's it's reflective of the nuance variables in each
12:18
department. But how are things going for
12:21
you, you know, employee as far as these processes, How often
12:25
does do you kind of double click into that box?
12:27
Yeah. So I mean, we have our annual
12:29
engagement survey. And so I would say that is that
12:32
is the process, right. That's our listening strategy of
12:36
where we would hear really from both ends, both from the
12:38
manager's perspective and from the employee's perspective.
12:40
So we have that and that's an opportunity to see how people
12:44
are feeling about really development overall, but
12:48
performance management for sure. That's why I love that and and
12:52
are there any other kind of like key best practices that that
12:54
maybe you have in mind that that are important in this
12:58
performance management world here.
13:01
Is there any just key things that she would recommend that
13:03
every company no matter what size she color that they always
13:06
should or should not do? Yeah.
13:08
So I mean, it's a bit of a loaded question, but I think.
13:12
It happens to be we're looking into, you know, reshaping our
13:15
process right now. And so the way we're thinking
13:18
about it is, is kind of breaking this into three different
13:20
elements. There's the structure itself.
13:23
So are we going to require goal setting?
13:26
Is it going to be annual goals, monthly goals?
13:29
Are we requiring checkins? When do managers need to go into
13:32
the system and and and make notes, those kinds of things.
13:36
Secondly, there's the rating approach.
13:39
Do we have managers assign an overall rating?
13:43
If we're doing that, then how are we ensuring that the
13:46
conversations that are happening throughout the year are
13:49
leveraged so that the rating is unbiased as much as possible?
13:55
And so here we're talking about, you know, is it one overall
13:58
rating or are we incorporating other data to come up with a
14:01
rating and and those sorts of things.
14:04
And then the third element here is, is really to what extent do
14:08
we connect the process and the potential rating to compensation
14:12
and other performance related decisions.
14:14
So you know, there's different schools of thought in regards to
14:17
all those areas. In regards to the structure, I
14:20
think everyone would agree whatever your requirement is,
14:23
it's really only the baseline. So you again you really want to
14:26
get to a place where continuous communication is taking place,
14:30
so you know depending on your culture.
14:32
Having a set requirement, let's say of you know, 4 checkins or
14:35
so a year, you know that might hinder free flowing change that
14:39
you're kind of looking for. On the other hand, you might say
14:42
if we don't have any requirement, we risk there being
14:45
zero conversation taking place. So whatever the process is in
14:49
place, it's really again important to work with a manager
14:51
to understand that there's no such thing as too much
14:54
communication. I would totally agree There's
14:57
there's no such thing as too much communication.
14:59
There's no such thing as. Let me pause on that.
15:05
There is a such thing as doing too much information about
15:07
employees. I think we all you know looking
15:09
for in some other thing, but I was like.
15:12
Hold on, let me. Let me pause with that, David.
15:15
There's no such thing I I believe from a from a
15:18
professional appropriate perspective.
15:21
There's no such thing as really understanding too much about how
15:24
I believe those that you lead, how they how they want to work,
15:27
how they do work, how they, how they, their respectives of the
15:30
department work, you know, the priorities of the team, things
15:33
of that nature. I had to, I had to think, well,
15:35
don't make that. Point.
15:38
But, but no, I would agree with you everything you're saying.
15:40
Absolutely, Yeah. And and then when it comes to
15:43
the ratings, you know, I I think ideally you are incorporating
15:46
different vantage points and and you're not simply asking
15:48
managers to assign a number. You know, one one way to do it,
15:52
you could have managers answer short pointed questions
15:55
throughout the year so they kind of you kind of have the
15:57
self-assessment, you have those specific questions that can
16:01
hopefully take some of the rating bias out of the equation.
16:05
You can also do things like incorporate competencies, peer
16:07
feedback that also helps. I'll mention there are those
16:12
that are doing away with ratings altogether because of the
16:14
anxiety, the poor communication that kind of happens around
16:16
them. You know that that that's going
16:20
to create some other potential problems.
16:22
So it's hard to get away from completely but those those are
16:25
some of the thoughts around the the reading And then you know
16:30
regards to that last element, the compensation question.
16:34
Ultimately as far as I've seen there's there's really just two
16:36
approaches you can either offer, you know have reasons
16:41
specifically linked to different ratings that's probably going to
16:45
necessitate a curve so that you stay in within a budget.
16:49
You can unlink the two and ask managers to divvy up a pool
16:53
however they see fit. Again, I think both those
16:57
approaches come with their own pros and cons, but that's sort
16:59
of the some of the thoughts around that as well.
17:02
Leaning to the divvy of the pool, psychology there, Break
17:06
that down a little bit more. What do you mean by that?
17:08
So if so, again, if you're going to, if you're going to have it
17:12
linked specifically to a rating, so now you're going to need a
17:14
curve because what happens if every?
17:18
Employee gets ranked highest and you're going to have an issue
17:21
with with you know kind of being able to to make that commitment
17:25
financially. So another way to do it is you
17:27
have whatever the number is you have, every manager has a given
17:32
budget for their team which obviously would depend on how
17:35
big their team is and all that. And you don't link so, so you
17:41
unlink that the reading and the raise and you say okay.
17:46
Feel free to give reasons for this year as you feel necessary
17:51
as long as you stay within the pool that you have.
17:53
So that's one way to kind of completely separate it from the
17:59
the rating. But you know that then you'll
18:00
have managers that are looking for a little bit more guidance
18:03
and so you know you, you do it again.
18:06
Yeah, because I was going to say, how do you keep that
18:07
equitable then? Like, how do how do you stop a
18:10
manager from just being very fond of someone?
18:13
They're leading his hands. Like my little brother is my
18:16
little sister. This is someone I see myself in.
18:19
How? Do you?
18:19
Yeah, exactly. And so when you do that, you're
18:22
going to have to give some sort of guidance regardless and some
18:25
sort of tool in order to help them figure out.
18:29
Like you said, in an equitable way, what makes sense to give to
18:32
who? And essentially when you're
18:34
doing that, you're really just talking about raging again.
18:37
Exactly, exactly. Talk to me about competency
18:40
models. What are your thoughts there at
18:42
a macro level? And then let's let's dive into
18:44
some best practices there. Sure.
18:47
Yeah. I mean a competency model, It's
18:48
a wonderful way to express what's important to an
18:51
organization. Essentially, competencies are
18:54
they're the combination of mindsets, the behaviors,
18:56
approaches that an organization believes is integral to success.
19:01
So you know, it's important to really differentiate
19:04
competencies from skills or specific knowledge.
19:07
It's really about how you do your work rather than what you
19:11
do. So I do see that.
19:13
Sometimes being confused and it's really important to make
19:15
that distinction a good model. It's going to help inform hiring
19:20
decisions, succession planning. It's also really going to help
19:24
evaluate employees because you know, lots of things get in the
19:28
way of performance or hitting or hitting goals.
19:30
But if a given employees exhibiting the right
19:33
competencies day-to-day, so that's someone you can have
19:36
confidence in right in their potential and their ability to
19:39
succeed in the long run. That's really fascinating.
19:44
So I've got a couple of thoughts on that in a different
19:47
direction. A lot of the work that I've done
19:50
in the past has been around also understanding the timing of a
19:54
company, contextual to the timing.
19:57
And sorry if anyone heard that my new home here happens to be
20:00
near the Amtrak's train station. So every maybe 7 minutes or so,
20:05
there's a blistering Just train. It just goes by every single
20:09
day. Not great for podcasting, but
20:12
we'll push through. My question was going to be so a
20:15
lot of the work that I've done has been around timing of
20:17
organizations, timing. What I mean by timing is let's
20:21
say an organization is trying to roll out a new product and
20:23
service because they're trying to take a little bit more market
20:26
share. Let's say an organization just
20:28
got acquired. Let's say an organization just
20:30
went through the last two 3/4 of the lowest revenue, the lowest
20:34
sales, the most difficult moments in its, in its
20:37
existence. So that's the timing and the
20:39
reality of the org. And then how does the behaviors
20:43
and the timing and the energy of the employees match up in pair
20:48
with that? And So what I've always been
20:50
very fascinated around as pertains to not only just the
20:54
black and white skill set, but more or less the behaviors and
20:57
the ways of working of employees.
20:59
How do they actually match up and mesh with the timing of the
21:02
org? Because for instance, I'll give
21:05
you a practical example, my wife just got a new job.
21:08
My wife is amazing, but my wife is amazing in settings where
21:12
things are consistent. Things are not changing.
21:15
Things are not shifting. She is a beautiful, brilliant,
21:19
amazing. I'm doing all these things
21:21
because I know she listens to this amazing woman.
21:25
But at the same time, though, she'll tell you this herself.
21:28
She struggles in moments where things are.
21:31
Very volatile, like very just up and down, lots of changes.
21:35
I don't think she would probably excel and she's admitted this in
21:37
times where the company may be going through an acquisition or
21:39
a company may be going through a complete shift in their
21:42
technology suites and tools that they use or whatever the case is
21:46
going to be. And so I've always been very
21:48
keen on trying to find different measurement tools or different
21:51
technology that can kind of measure.
21:54
Out if an employee is what you fit into the particular timing
21:58
of a company for a certain said period of time.
22:01
I know that's a little complex and maybe a little too broad,
22:05
but what are your thoughts on that if you have any nuanced
22:07
perspectives on that? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think
22:10
what what you're really talking about is cultural fit.
22:13
And depending on where a company is in their journey, that
22:17
culture is going to be, you know, different.
22:22
To me, it comes down to the mission, it comes down to the
22:26
company's values. It comes down to the extent that
22:28
leadership is espousing those values.
22:32
And so I think it's a really interesting thing to think about
22:37
in terms of a cultural fit, in terms of where the company is.
22:43
But absolutely, I know, I know that there are, I have.
22:47
Friends that have you know expressed that that they're what
22:50
they like to call builders, right.
22:51
They they like to be on you know the ground floor new company
22:56
start up, let's build this out And then there are those that
23:02
aren't necessarily interested in that and they're more interested
23:04
in having more direction. So I think that's definitely an
23:09
interesting thing to think about and somebody who is looking also
23:12
for a company to to to kind of have that awareness.
23:16
Yeah. Is really important and if if
23:20
they can reflect that in their recruiting process or in their
23:24
communication, the more again the more transparent they can be
23:27
about it, about what's going on. I think the easier is to have
23:31
those conversations about is a good fit and or what they need
23:35
to get there. Yeah, Yeah.
23:37
No, 100% and and I think being able to measure and test that.
23:41
Maybe even on a yearly basis, Probably something that's
23:43
important. I've been thinking about that a
23:45
lot too, with some of the organizations that I face and
23:48
that I'm around. And here is the train again.
23:51
I don't know why that was less than 7 minutes.
23:54
I'm not hearing it, so no, no worries.
23:55
OK, good, good, good. It's probably just distracting
23:58
me, but no, I I know something I've been leaning into more is.
24:03
Trying to help companies kind of understand where they are on a
24:06
yearly basis because I think like for example, gearing up for
24:09
2024, I'm sure Canon has priorities, focuses,
24:13
perspectives, thoughts, changes, Things that may impact the
24:17
marketing team, may impact the sales team, may impact the
24:20
product team, may impact the HR team, whatever the case is going
24:23
to be. And I've been just consistently
24:25
keeping a pulse on. Do the people we have currently,
24:28
right now really fit with the new set of priorities in this
24:31
2024 year, this 2025 year, this 2026 year?
24:35
Do we need to change their role, restructure their role, maybe
24:38
move them to a different department?
24:40
And maybe it's time to awkward them all together and just have
24:43
that honest conversation about, hey, where we're going just
24:46
doesn't necessarily fit with your current behavior and skills
24:48
at this moment. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
24:50
It just means we're growing and evolving.
24:53
Or. You can you know, you know
24:56
upskill them and and maybe they can fit into that new evolve
24:59
into where things are going. So any any final points on that
25:02
or thoughts on that before I move on?
25:04
Yeah, no, I'll just say, I think it kind of ties into some of the
25:07
things we were talking about before because we were talking
25:09
about how, you know, what work means to different is different
25:13
for different people, especially nowadays.
25:16
And so it is, you know, something that people are
25:19
thinking about and. Again, that constant
25:23
communication is so key for this exact reason that's going to
25:27
help you know keep the keep the pulse on on, on on who feels
25:30
what and and where they see themselves fitting and then all
25:33
of that. So I think the again the more
25:35
communication that managers, employees can be having around
25:40
all sorts of things inside and outside of work is is going to
25:42
help with that. Let me ask you this.
25:46
Real quick before I jump into the last topic here and I get
25:48
you out of here because I know you're you're a busy man here
25:53
and this is a biased question because I just love this.
25:56
I geek out on it all the time. How was Canon thinking about HR
26:00
technology? Anything new, Anything new that
26:03
you're playing with, Anything that you know they're
26:05
considering adopting? It could be on the skill
26:08
development side of things, the performance management side of
26:11
things, the recruiting side of things, the.
26:14
I don't know. There's there's a lot of, you
26:16
know, internal calms, you know, there's a lot of buckets.
26:19
Yeah I mean I I what I do I'll tell you what I know.
26:22
What I know is because that that those conversations happen with
26:25
the we have an HR tech team but there is a initiative to get a
26:32
new HR system in place. I we are not currently using
26:36
Workday and we're moving over to Workday and I I think part of
26:41
the asides for just. You know getting getting with
26:45
the times and and having a a process that's a little bit more
26:49
modern, it's about having everything under one roof.
26:53
And so I think that is super critical just in order to have
26:57
all the right data in their employee data and that it
26:59
matches up with both the performance metrics along with
27:06
the onboarding stuff and and everything under one roof is
27:09
definitely a super helpful. Yeah, yeah, No, 100%.
27:17
Let's talk about high performance programs, leadership
27:19
development. What are your thoughts?
27:21
I have many thoughts here, but we have limited time.
27:23
So what are your, what are your thoughts there?
27:25
Yeah. So, you know, a lot of companies
27:29
are investing in, in, in, in different, in different types of
27:32
initiatives. In terms of leadership
27:35
development, you have leadership assessments, you have executive
27:37
coaching. I think the most widely used
27:40
method here is some sort of high potential leadership program.
27:44
There's a lot of literature suggesting that these programs
27:47
don't work that well. So I I mean, I think, I think
27:50
there are a number of issues that that needs to be worked
27:52
through. First off, it's really hard to
27:57
measure success here. You're already working with.
28:00
A group of high potential, so performance ratings are already
28:02
high as a baseline. There is not necessarily
28:04
anywhere for them to go. So you know, hopefully you see
28:07
these individuals moving upwards in the company.
28:09
But again is that you know, because they already were high
28:14
potential, is it because of the program itself that they
28:17
actually moved up, you know, hard to say.
28:20
Content wise as well, we know that people learn by doing, not
28:26
sitting in a classroom. But practically, you know when
28:30
you have a learning development team that's putting this
28:32
together, they're not in position to be assigning stretch
28:35
assignments. That's you know, the role of the
28:37
manager. So practically what happens is
28:40
in any of these programs you're going to have formal training
28:42
being the the most of it, with a little bit of application
28:46
frankled in, when really it it it should be the opposite.
28:51
You know, formal training really only works for hard skills When
28:54
it comes to these leadership skills, people skills you're
28:57
going to learn by seeing it modeled, by trying things in
29:00
real life, finding out for yourself what works and what
29:02
doesn't you know Lastly then, if you could somehow ensure the
29:07
content is super relevant to all, there's practical
29:10
application, it's taught in the way that really sticks.
29:14
At the end of the day, participants are they're going
29:15
back to their work lives, so their routines and and what's
29:20
going to influence that behavior more than anything again is, is
29:23
seeing what their leaders do. They're going to look at that
29:25
person and say you are where I want to be, so I'm going to do
29:29
what you do. And if the leaders behavior
29:32
complements what's being taught in the program, then that's
29:35
great, but maybe then the program wasn't even necessary in
29:38
the first place. It's what's in the program then
29:41
you know that program becomes mostly meaningless.
29:44
So it's it's bit of a catch 22. At the end of the day,
29:47
development is really happening on the job and the program has
29:50
to be looked at something that complements that.
29:53
But all that said, there's a lot to say for increasing retention
29:59
and engagement with these programs.
30:02
You know, like I said, engagement, development,
30:04
performance, they're all interlinked.
30:06
So when you're engaging with population and you're showing
30:08
them that love and support via specialized offerings, it's
30:13
going to do wonders in terms of building connection with the
30:16
company, increasing their personal investment and all of
30:19
that. Do you believe before we wrap up
30:23
and let me just comment on what you everything you were saying,
30:25
I totally agree. That was well said and and as
30:27
you know we probably could have sat into an entire episode
30:30
pocket of just that alone. Are you familiar with Keith
30:34
Ferrazzi? Now.
30:37
OK, so Keith Ferrazzi, Long story short, he's someone that
30:41
combines performance management, high potentials, neuroscience
30:46
all into like one. But like that's his whole thing.
30:50
He's focused a lot on that work and he's always said that he
30:54
feels too many HR teams uses individual development plans in
30:58
a bad way, like an IDP, like, hey, like this person
31:01
struggling. Usually a lot of HR folks know
31:04
if they administer an IDP, it's usually at the last.
31:06
They're pretty much fired, but we're going to give you one last
31:09
shot. We'll see if it works, he said.
31:12
He wants to start having HR lead to look at it a bit differently,
31:16
put an IDP plan together proactively in a positive way.
31:19
Give them a realistic, really tangible, really sticky, really
31:23
clear road map of how they can go from where they are to
31:27
inevitably becoming a high potential and show them and and
31:30
and and. Put them and pair them with
31:31
leaders that are high potentials.
31:33
Put them in moments realistically within the
31:35
workforce to be able to utilize and keep you know capitalize on
31:40
these skills. And so you know and each in in
31:43
his perspective. Each individual employee should
31:45
be working with managers. To to have their own IDP in a
31:49
proactive and positive way, not necessarily a negative last last
31:54
chance way. What are your thoughts on that?
31:57
Yeah, absolutely. I mean we have development plans
31:59
or we have a tool for development planning that's
32:02
available to every employee and I think 100% even I think it's
32:06
even more impactful for those that are already designated as
32:09
high potentials. If those are your hopefully your
32:13
future leaders, then how do we stay engaged with them and help.
32:17
Them see that potential out. So that is definitely super
32:20
critical you know, but it it's going to be different for every
32:24
person. So like you said it it's got
32:26
it's really the manager's responsibility at the end of the
32:29
day and it's hard because the manager has you know their their
32:35
their goals and their performance metrics that they're
32:37
responsible for and I always say that.
32:39
The job of a leader is really twofold.
32:41
You have two jobs. You have the job of whatever it
32:45
is that you're overseeing, the metrics that you need to hit and
32:48
all that. And you also have the job of a
32:50
parent, Just like a parent is responsible to ensure their kids
32:54
are growing and becoming successful adults.
32:59
That is the leaders responsibility as well for those
33:02
they lead. So it's a lot on their
33:04
shoulders, but that's why they get paid the big bucks.
33:08
That's it. That's it.
33:09
Hey Judah, this has been a phenomenal conversation.
33:12
I know, I know this could probably go another 30 to 40
33:14
minutes. There's a lot of areas we could
33:16
touch on. I'm always very happy to bring
33:19
folks back. I've done, I've done, I've done
33:21
a few guests where we've done 23456 parts actually.
33:27
So, so you're always welcome to come back.
33:29
I would love to actually to have you because I know there's a lot
33:31
of different pieces that we could double click into.
33:35
Last words, Any last thoughts, Any last perspectives and then
33:40
we'll get you out of here. You know we're coming out
33:43
leadership. So I'll just, I'll just kind of
33:45
close with this. I think you know the biggest
33:47
thing that leaders may be the biggest mistake they make is
33:50
they kind of miscast that dynamic between them and those
33:54
they lead they're typically thinking about.
33:58
You know nobody wants to work and I have to be like the
34:00
shepherd and and ever employees are avoiding work and I have to
34:03
reel them in squeeze the work out of them.
34:05
You know reality is that everyone wants the same thing.
34:09
Our fault is not necessarily be lazy and for the question has to
34:13
be why are employees trying away why are they avoiding and being
34:17
unmotivated. And and we really have to think
34:21
about that because in this day and age it's about creative
34:25
work. And you know the the yelling and
34:29
and the fear it doesn't necessarily isn't necessarily
34:34
good for creative problem solving.
34:35
So you know that may have worked in you know the with the factory
34:41
workers but they day and age that's that's not where it is.
34:45
So the end of the day it's it's not about being passive either
34:50
right. It's about really being
34:51
positive. So leaders have that
34:53
responsibility to lead and they should be leading from a place
34:55
of positivity. You know, I I I think I often
35:00
think about this example. If if a leader says, you know,
35:04
we better get this assignment done by Monday, we're going to
35:07
have good problems versus, you know, we have an opportunity in
35:11
front of us to let me know what you need in order to get this
35:14
done by Monday. You know the same message,
35:16
completely different vibe. So you know, in other words, the
35:20
approach leader needs to take is about empowering and inspiring
35:23
rather than commanding and controlling.
35:26
You know what that does is it taps into two major factors to
35:30
help individuals reach that their potential, that taps into
35:33
their intrinsic motivation, their personal drive for success
35:36
and and it also creates that psychological safe environment
35:39
to go after that success. 1000%, that was well said.
35:44
Well, thank you, Judah. I appreciate you coming onto
35:45
this podcast. Excuse me, It's, it's been an
35:48
honor and it's been a fun time and we'll talk to you soon.
35:52
Absolutely. This was a lot of fun.
35:53
Anthony, looking forward. Alrighty, have a good one.