Latest / Future Christian / Loren & Martha Live from Canada: Faith, Loss, and Life in the Middle Years

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Loren & Martha Live from Canada: Faith, Loss, and Life in the Middle Years · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Loren: Okay. Welcome to the Future Christian
0:47
Podcast, live and in person in
0:50
St. Catharines, Ontario. This is Loren
0:52
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be joined
0:56
live and.
0:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: In person in 3D by Martha
0:59
Tatarnic. This is our first time actually
1:02
meeting in person, and this is your first time
1:05
in Canada, so you're welcoming our
1:07
listeners, but really I should be welcoming you to Canada.
1:10
What do you think so far?
1:12
>> Loren: So far, so good. Trying to do
1:15
some math with the kilometers, uh,
1:18
to miles an hour, right?
1:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. You said that there's a little conversion
1:24
help at the border, but then you're sort of on your own from
1:27
there.
1:28
>> Loren: Yeah. It was 80. And they tell you stupid
1:30
Americans means 50 miles an hour.
1:33
I kind of wish, like, the car, and maybe it does. I
1:36
wondered if the car has, like, a button you can push to
1:40
convert it, Although it would still throw me off because if I
1:43
saw myself going, you know, 80
1:45
kilometers per hour, I'd still think I'm going too
1:48
fast.
1:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah.
1:49
>> Loren: I'm so ingrained in miles per hour thinking.
1:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: What about your spelling? Have you, um, brushed up
1:55
on spelling? Favor. O u r
1:58
donut. D o u, g, H, n u.
2:01
>> Loren: T. I didn't think about donut.
2:04
Center.
2:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, Center.
2:07
>> Loren: What else?
2:07
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, and then there's always the zed instead
2:10
of Z.
2:11
>> Loren: That's right. Yeah.
2:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: So try not to be a dead giveaway
2:15
about, uh, being American. I
2:18
think spelling donut is really important with
2:20
the dough. Yeah.
2:22
>> Loren: And the nut.
2:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I just really like donuts, too.
2:25
>> Loren: Well, what is Tim Hortons, Right?
2:28
What else?
2:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
2:29
>> Loren: Well, what's the good.
2:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: So here in St. Catharines is beechwood
2:33
donut.
2:33
>> Loren: Okay.
2:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Which is really a special treat. So maybe we
2:37
can get some beechwood donuts before you
2:40
head back to, uh.
2:42
>> Loren: We have time. It sounds like that's important.
2:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. I mean, Tim Hortons donuts really don't cut
2:47
it. You need sort of the local, like, freshly
2:50
baked.
2:51
>> Loren: Okay. Donuts.
2:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
2:52
>> Loren: That's fair.
2:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
2:53
But aside from donuts and spelling and
2:56
converting miles to Kilometers. What
2:59
are some of your other goals? And being here
3:02
in Niagara and being on vacation.
3:05
What's on your radar?
3:09
>> Loren: My wife and I, my wife Karina is here with us
3:12
and we'd want to do an international trip. And this
3:14
is, you know, an international trip. And
3:17
I thought this is a win, win. I can
3:20
travel somewhere internationally, you know,
3:23
see Martha and then make sure she really
3:26
exists. Right. Not just
3:30
a screen. And then it's fun.
3:32
We did this last night. My
3:35
dad's grandparents lived in Niagara
3:38
Falls, New York. And I'm pretty sure we
3:41
found their old house last night, which
3:44
was sort of amazing to think about because
3:47
you.
3:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Actually did go there as a kid. So you have
3:50
like some, um, vague memories.
3:51
>> Loren: Vague memories. But the house was built in 1875,
3:54
which is just kind of mind blowing to think about.
3:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
3:58
>> Loren: A house being, you know, especially in my
4:01
neck of the woods in Colorado, where it's such
4:04
a newer,
4:09
you know, the age of everything is few
4:11
places in Colorado or that.
4:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right, right.
4:14
>> Loren: Especially established places, built places. But,
4:17
you know, like, I don't know if my house is still going to be around in
4:20
150 years for sure. Like modern construction.
4:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
4:25
>> Loren: So, you know, it's pretty interesting to think about.
4:29
Um, you know, and I think we'll
4:32
talk a little bit more about that here of middle
4:35
age when you think about what your values are.
4:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's right. That's right. Well,
4:41
I am looking forward to the rest of our day after we
4:43
record our podcast because my husband Dan
4:46
is thoroughly steeped in the history of
4:49
Niagara. So we're just going to put ourselves
4:52
in the Dan van and he's going
4:54
to drive us around to some
4:57
different Niagara sites and some different
4:59
Niagara tastes. And I hope it'll be really fun
5:02
for you and Karina.
5:03
>> Loren: I hope so.
5:04
Well, you have a project going on right now
5:07
on, um, sabbatical and a book
5:10
deadline. Tell us more about that.
5:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well, it's very risky to ask me
5:15
about my book right now because I,
5:18
um, could just spend the next hour talking about
5:20
16th century Tudor England, which probably
5:23
isn't, uh, on your radar of topics
5:26
for today. Um, but yeah,
5:29
I'm working toward a July
5:32
1st deadline for, um,
5:34
finishing up the book that I'm working on about,
5:38
uh, Anne Boleyn and her
5:40
influence on the English Reformation and
5:43
starting what would become the Anglican Church.
5:46
Um, and I'm on sabbatical right
5:49
now in order to get that project done.
5:52
So it's all Ann, all the time for
5:55
me right now. But I will try not to
5:58
talk your ear off. And Karina's ear
6:01
off over the next couple of days. About.
6:04
>> Loren: Well, if I can give, if I can
6:06
give a kickback or reference to past
6:10
podcast guests as we're recording this. My
6:12
most recent episode was Suzanne
6:15
Nadell.
6:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
6:16
>> Loren: And we talked about making it local. So you just gotta
6:19
make Anne Boleyn local
6:22
and then it'll work.
6:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. I'm sure I'm up for that, Castle.
6:26
>> Loren: Or make it relevant, I guess would be the, the translation.
6:29
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, well, that's kind of my whole
6:32
mo about Anne Boleyn right now, why she
6:34
matters for us. But, you know, I'm sure that
6:37
when we get closer to the release date of the book,
6:40
um, you'll interview me on the podcast
6:44
and I can tell you all about it.
6:49
Yeah. Do I ever have an episode for you?
6:51
Yeah, it's gonna be great.
6:55
>> Loren: I think you've earned as much. Yeah, I think you've earned as
6:58
much.
6:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Maybe like a two part.
7:04
>> Loren: All right.
7:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. So we aren't actually gonna
7:08
talk about, um, Anne Boleyn today,
7:12
but stay tuned. Um, we're going
7:15
to have. Well, we thought that we should have kind
7:18
of more of a laid back conversation today
7:21
because we're so thrilled to get to meet each other in person.
7:23
But I, I think that the topic that
7:26
we've selected is important and to
7:29
me anyway, it's underrepres.
7:33
Um, I think in the mainline
7:35
church, a lot of our work is in caring
7:38
for seniors. Um, and a
7:41
lot of what preoccupies us is
7:44
trying to reach youth.
7:46
>> Loren: Right.
7:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like that is kind of the
7:50
split, um, attention
7:53
in the mainline church. So I thought
7:56
as two people in middle age,
7:59
that we should talk about faith in middle age because it's
8:02
pretty interesting and,
8:05
um, doesn't get a lot of air time in the
8:08
mainline church. Um, just,
8:11
you know, what do we learn at this kind of
8:14
midpoint in life and how does faith change
8:16
and what do people like us need
8:19
as people of faith? So I think
8:22
that we should just set the scene because,
8:25
um, we shouldn't assume that our listeners
8:28
remember every little thing about us.
8:30
Um, so, Loren, why don't you start off by
8:33
just giving our listeners
8:36
a, ah, reminder of your
8:39
experience of church growing up.
8:41
>> Loren: Yeah, so I was, I grew up Independent
8:44
Baptist and was
8:46
Independent Baptist for The first,
8:49
roughly 25 years of my life. Went to
8:52
Bible college and then kind of
8:55
had the, you know, I guess I
8:57
was about 10, 15 years ahead of the whole
9:00
now.
9:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: Huh.
9:01
>> Loren: What has been called the deconstruction thing.
9:05
Eventually, through
9:09
some people I met, got into the tradition
9:12
that I'm in now, and the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ,
9:15
a mainline denomination where I'm ordained,
9:19
have been through seminary. But I think what's
9:22
interesting, and we're just talking about this on the
9:25
drive over to where we're recording,
9:28
is you were talking about, Martha,
9:31
Dan's. How do you describe it? Home church or.
9:34
See, that's the kind of language I would use.
9:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
9:37
>> Loren: How did you describe Dan's.
9:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: His family church, like the church he grew
9:41
up in?
9:42
>> Loren: Yeah, I mean,
9:45
certainly in my
9:48
formative years as a, uh, young person, like
9:51
Arvada Baptist churches, like the church that I would call, like.
9:55
I don't know what language we'd use. I mean, I think
9:58
about home church is the, is the language that
10:01
most comes to mind. Yeah, well, that's certainly like a,
10:04
A Baptist or conservative
10:07
term. I don't know if mainliners would use that.
10:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I think we'd recognize that
10:11
language.
10:12
>> Loren: Yeah. So, like, I recently
10:15
got to preach at the Methodist church I'm
10:17
attending, and I kind of throughout the sermon
10:20
made a couple references or callbacks or
10:23
jokes to like, growing up Baptist and, you know,
10:26
like, memorizing scriptures in the King James verse.
10:29
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
10:30
>> Loren: And wearing a suit, because Baptist preachers always
10:33
wore suits. So certainly that's still
10:36
very influential in my faith. And
10:39
I think part of what's been important for me is kind
10:41
of like reintegrating that in a way
10:44
because, like, I remember
10:47
when Lexi, my daughter Lexi was a baby. So this was
10:50
12 years ago, like writing a real, like, kind of like
10:53
scathing like, oh, who could believe in
10:58
substitutionary, uh, atonement, for instance?
11:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right, right.
11:00
>> Loren: Kind of this, like, oh, like
11:03
rejection.
11:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Of the whole thing.
11:05
>> Loren: And now I'm like, you know what? That's not
11:08
my favorite atonement model, but I can
11:11
understand why people would resonate with that atonement
11:14
model.
11:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
11:14
>> Loren: So I think, and I think it's very interesting, like
11:17
you say about the mainline church, like,
11:20
obsessing about, like, you know, we have
11:23
all these seniors and we gotta figure out how to
11:26
get young people in the door. And there's
11:29
like, like you said, there's this important
11:32
and often missing middle ground of like, hey, if we can
11:34
get middle aged people, like, if anything,
11:37
like, there's probably a pretty good, like, financial
11:40
revenue source. Uh, they're established in
11:43
their lives and careers and they can probably support.
11:46
They're probably gonna offer a little bit more stability.
11:50
Um, but yeah, so for me, I think I feel like
11:54
now I have
11:57
mellowed out in some ways, but also
12:01
I Don't know.
12:02
And Martha, this is a question I was going to ask you too, like
12:05
for men, at least in the States,
12:08
like, I feel like 40s, that number,
12:11
early 40s, late 30s is like
12:14
the middle aged crisis happens a lot in men.
12:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
12:17
>> Loren: So I don't know, like this is a personal
12:20
question, but did you feel like for yourself, like the kind of like middle
12:23
aged crisis, like, I know especially for me,
12:26
and I'll stop here. Like,
12:29
especially kind of going through like a career,
12:33
I don't know, transition. I felt
12:36
that a lot like trying to figure out how am m. I, like
12:39
I still want to serve the church. How does that look like?
12:42
Especially as the models of ministry change.
12:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I think that. Well, I think
12:48
just a lot catches up with you in middle age.
12:51
And you know, I think that that is another
12:55
reason why this underrepresented conversation
12:58
is so important is because like, I don't know how
13:01
you could get into your 40s without, uh, having like profound
13:04
spiritual needs and like questions
13:07
and like, you know, you've dealt with some real things
13:10
by our age and are dealing
13:13
with real things. And like,
13:16
I certainly need resources to
13:19
deal with that stuff because,
13:22
um, it's, it's
13:25
not always a bowl of cherries, you know, as my
13:28
husband's grandmother used to say.
13:31
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Because even thinking about that, like
13:34
we're, you know, we're both parents of. My
13:37
daughter's not quite yet a teenager. Like, that's coming soon.
13:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And my kids are both teenagers and my
13:43
daughter's about to graduate from high school.
13:46
So there's that whole life change and.
13:49
>> Loren: I'm thinking about to like,
13:52
I, uh, mean, I don't know this. Tell me. Like,
13:55
I'm thinking about my own parents, uh, certainly my
13:58
wife's parents and my, my dad's health
14:00
and you know, their longevity. And
14:03
you know, I joke with somebody. Hopefully my dad's not
14:06
listening and my mom's not listening, but I joked like,
14:10
I'm parenting my parents much. I'm parenting my kids.
14:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, yeah, but sandwich generation, right. I mean, my
14:15
husband's parents have both gone
14:18
at this point. So you know,
14:21
we've sort of already crossed that threshold
14:24
with some of our parents. My parents are
14:27
both in excellent health. But
14:30
you know, I have been a pastor
14:33
in the same congregation for 11
14:36
years. And so the
14:39
number of people of my
14:41
parents generation who I have
14:44
watched and shepherded through decline and death
14:48
and you know, have had almost that
14:52
like, you know, they've been
14:54
figures of wisdom and like,
14:57
nurture in my life and They've been, you know, people
15:00
who have cared for my children sort
15:03
of as they would grandchildren. And
15:06
so, you know, like, the. The
15:09
losses do add up at this point. And
15:12
I just. I don't.
15:15
I don't think that you can get to this stage of life and
15:18
not feel like, okay,
15:21
life is fragile and you've got to embrace every
15:24
day. And it sounds like a bit corny to say that, but it
15:27
really is. And, you know, my parents
15:30
are. When I said that they're in excellent health,
15:33
I think we're all, like, really aware that we have to treasure
15:36
that. Because you just
15:39
don't know.
15:39
>> Loren: Yeah.
15:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like, you don't know day to day.
15:41
>> Loren: Yeah. I mean, certainly
15:44
now. And I. I'm, uh, curious.
15:47
This brings a question I'm just curious about. Like, how do
15:50
you like. Because I'm noticing this now, working again, as a
15:53
chaplain, thinking about my
15:56
wife's work in the emergency room, like,
15:59
hearing stories from her about tragedy and
16:02
loss, like, how do you. How do
16:05
you take care of yourself? Because I think that's one thing
16:08
I'm noticing again, so much working in
16:11
chaplaincy is, like, this heaviness of
16:13
these. That's so
16:16
important. It's taking care of your own self with these
16:19
heavy losses.
16:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Uh, I mean, to be honest, I
16:25
think that it is a question that I
16:27
would like our denominations to think about
16:32
carefully and intentionally because,
16:35
um, when you are
16:38
caring for congregations that
16:40
demographically, like, right across the board,
16:43
do, um, swing to the
16:45
older side,
16:49
um, that pastoral burden
16:52
that you are carrying is different than, I
16:55
think, a few generations ago. You know,
16:58
um, the losses can be fast
17:01
and furious. And,
17:04
um, I'm just, like, grateful in
17:07
the church that I serve, that I
17:10
have a couple of colleagues,
17:13
um, my co. Priest at the church.
17:16
But also we have, like, kind of an. A couple of
17:19
other key leaders at the church
17:22
who we get to share with one another
17:25
in navigating those losses, you know,
17:28
because we all sort of understand
17:31
the.
17:35
That these aren't just, like,
17:37
parishioners. Like, they are,
17:40
um, they are people that we have loved and admired
17:43
and been blessed to
17:46
call friends, you know, and they
17:49
have, like, shown us a lot about how we
17:52
want to live and how we want to live as Christians.
17:55
So I think that collegial part
17:59
is really important, and I try to lean into
18:01
that. But there are lots of. Well, and I run a lot.
18:04
Like, running is kind of my main
18:07
antidote to grief, to be honest. But,
18:10
um. But
18:13
even at that, like, I think that there are still
18:16
ways in which it can catch up with
18:19
Me in not the healthiest ways. And I try to
18:22
be attentive to that.
18:24
>> Loren: Okay. So that leads me to another question. I was
18:26
thinking about this and I'm. Don't quote me on this,
18:30
listeners especially, but I remember from my
18:33
CPE training, which is my
18:36
critical pastoral education training.
18:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: We did that too.
18:38
>> Loren: Like the leader talking about like
18:41
therapy dogs having a shorter lifespan.
18:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
18:45
>> Loren: And I, I literally saw that.
18:48
Like, because in the hospital I work at, there's like a
18:50
memorial wall to like all these therapy dogs and a lot of them are dead.
18:54
Dead. And I just think like, oh, um, every time I walk
18:57
by, I'm m. Like, oh my goodness. Like, how is this
18:59
impacting me? Like,
19:03
I'm not sure what the question is, but I sort of
19:06
am reminded of it. Like the question is in front of me.
19:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So is it like a
19:14
parallel to our work?
19:17
We're the therapy done.
19:18
>> Loren: Right. Like,
19:21
is this work of. Because I
19:24
think like there's something. And again, I'm thinking of
19:28
Nandra Roots book Evangelism's
19:31
Evangelism and ages despair about coming alongside people
19:34
and they're suffering. Like, man, I don't know how else
19:37
to say, like, I find that so
19:39
powerful.
19:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
19:41
>> Loren: At work and so addicting. I don't know else to say
19:44
it. Like, but also like after
19:47
I'm done.
19:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: I'm like, yeah,
19:50
yeah. Has a big impact. I
19:53
mean, I, I don't know what the
19:57
like, statistics are. I don't know whether
20:00
you can kind of like map
20:02
out numerically the impact that it has.
20:06
I will say that, you know, a
20:09
couple of years ago and it was in my last book,
20:11
why Gather, like, I
20:14
really took a lot of solace and I still do
20:17
from the um,
20:20
mental fitness technique called ultra realism that
20:23
I use in long distance running.
20:25
>> Loren: Yeah.
20:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: And it's like
20:31
you can spend so much time worrying about what's going to
20:34
come next or wishing that things were different.
20:36
>> Loren: Right.
20:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: And how do you, uh,
20:39
instead like attend to what's actually happening?
20:42
And I think for me the parallel
20:45
in parish ministry, I think
20:48
there's a lot of takeaways for parish ministry and for life
20:51
and all kinds of things. But,
20:53
um, but like
20:56
when I start to uh,
20:58
spiral in parish ministry, it's when I think like, I
21:01
can't do this for the next 15 years. Like, I,
21:04
like, I can't. Like it's too
21:07
hard. Like it's. There's just too
21:10
much loss. And
21:14
so I really try to not think about the next
21:16
15 years. I try to think about like, okay, but right
21:19
now like, right now I'm okay.
21:22
And, like, right now God is providing.
21:25
And right now, like, I have resources. And right
21:28
now, like, I'm, um, I'm safe.
21:32
Um, so,
21:36
yeah, I mean, obviously we do have to, as leaders in
21:39
the church, um, be thinking
21:41
long range, but I think that
21:45
we do also have to trust day to day in
21:48
the God who provides. Right.
21:49
>> Loren: I'm glad to hear you remind me that, because, you know, speaking
21:52
of, like, my own ministry context right now is very, like,
21:57
ambiguous, I guess is a word, because, like, I'm working
22:00
part time as a chaplain, still doing a
22:03
podcast. Like, I've got involved in this Christian
22:06
nonprofit, but, like, again, uh, I'm in a
22:08
stage of life where, like, I want to have, like,
22:11
more or more
22:14
certainty, and I don't. And I'm trying to tell myself,
22:17
like, I can't try to plan out the next 20 years.
22:20
I'm trying to, like, what is. What has God
22:23
placed in front of me? How can I be faithful in that? So
22:26
I'm, I'm, if anything, appreciate
22:29
being reminded of that in this moment, because it's certainly
22:31
tracking right now.
22:33
Um, yeah, I mean, we've kind
22:36
of been going back and forth, but is there anything else you want to say just about your own
22:40
background and context?
22:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, this has
22:44
come up many times as we've been
22:47
chatting with our guests on the podcast. But like I
22:50
said, we can't just assume that all of our listeners
22:53
remember our background or, like, aren't tuning in for the
22:55
first time. Um, so compared to
22:59
you're growing up in a more conservative denomination.
23:02
I really have been thoroughly,
23:05
um, formed in the mainline
23:08
tradition. I grew up in the mainline church. I've
23:11
served in ministry for the past 21 years
23:14
in the mainline church. Um,
23:17
so, you know, you would think that that might mean that,
23:21
like, my faith hasn't changed a lot
23:24
in that time, which isn't true. Like, I would say my
23:27
faith has gone through a lot of iterations in
23:29
that, that time. But one of the
23:32
things that I appreciate about the podcast
23:36
is getting to talk
23:39
to and, like, glean some wisdom from
23:43
you and from people who have that more
23:46
conservative evangelical background,
23:49
because it is pretty foreign to me. Like,
23:52
I don't know. I don't know a lot
23:55
about it, aside from kind of the negative
23:58
press, to be honest. Like, and there is a lot of
24:01
negative press, especially in
24:04
Canada, sometimes deservedly so.
24:07
Yeah. Like, I think Canadians
24:10
sort of have this understanding of the
24:12
evangelical American church being very wrapped up
24:15
in the politics of America, which It can be.
24:18
Which it can be. So I have appreciated
24:21
just hearing, like, really wise voices from
24:24
that tradition, um, that
24:27
helped to break down those,
24:30
like, barriers that exist
24:33
between our two worlds. And, you know,
24:36
I've had conversations over the years with people
24:38
from the evangelical tradition who say to me
24:41
things like, gosh, I had no idea
24:44
that people in the mainline church could be spirit led.
24:51
>> Loren: I mean, it's. Oh, we're laughing because we know,
24:54
like, there's some truth to that joke, right?
24:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
24:57
>> Loren: They wouldn't say it as a joke.
24:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: They would, like they were dead serious.
25:00
>> Loren: But there's some truth to the
25:03
observation, you know, something that I've
25:05
appreciated about another
25:08
observation you've had or you use the framing of
25:11
dialect.
25:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
25:13
>> Loren: And I think that's a really helpful framing.
25:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
25:17
>> Loren: Like, evangelicals speak a different dialect.
25:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And mainliners speak a different dialect.
25:22
>> Loren: Right.
25:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: And I think there can be a real
25:26
assumption that if somebody speaks a different
25:29
dialect, that they
25:31
don't have a sincere faith, you
25:34
know?
25:35
>> Loren: Yeah.
25:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: But they. That's not true.
25:38
>> Loren: Right.
25:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: You know, and actually, like, there is one
25:41
Spirit and we can all be led by the
25:44
Spirit, but express that, uh, in very different
25:46
language. And we don't need to disparage
25:49
one another's spiritual experience
25:52
because they speak a different dialect. And I mean,
25:55
that is, I would say, something that
25:58
I have come to feel
26:00
extremely strongly about
26:04
two decades into ministry,
26:07
which is that, uh, like, I grew up hearing
26:11
mainliners kind of disparage ourselves, but
26:14
certainly, like, being disparaged by others as,
26:16
like, oh, you know, like, we,
26:19
we don't talk about our faith. Like, we,
26:22
we don't know how to, like, give
26:25
language to our spiritual experiences.
26:28
And that just is not true. Like, I
26:31
think that I,
26:34
in, in my experience, like,
26:37
people in my congregations are just dying
26:40
to talk about their experience of prayer and
26:43
God and like, where they have
26:46
gotten spiritual strength and spiritual resources.
26:49
And just because they use
26:52
different language to talk about that than
26:55
somebody in a, uh, more charismatic tradition
26:58
does not mean that those experiences aren't, like,
27:02
deeply important to them
27:04
and, like, deeply important in shaping their lives.
27:07
>> Loren: Yeah. What do you think that lack
27:10
of talking about it is about? Because
27:14
when I grew up Baptist, it wasn't
27:17
a super common occurrence, but I definitely have memories
27:19
of, like, there being like,
27:22
testimony sharing time in church.
27:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I,
27:29
I mean, I think that it is like,
27:32
we don't have that kind of built into the liturgy.
27:35
>> Loren: Right, right.
27:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: But, you know, like, that's it because.
27:39
>> Loren: You know, Baptists are very non liturgical.
27:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
27:42
>> Loren: And even broadly speaking, Evangelicalism,
27:46
much less liturgical.
27:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. But I think that that
27:51
experience of testimony does happen in
27:54
our congregations. It happens in our study
27:57
groups. It happens at coffee hour. It happens in
28:00
one another's. Like, I think that
28:03
there is a, uh, real reluctance
28:06
in mainliners to do
28:09
anything that would be
28:11
considered shoving your faith down somebody else's
28:14
throat. Like, that is not part of our tradition
28:17
generally. But that doesn't mean
28:20
that people don't express, like,
28:23
how God has guided them and strengthened
28:25
them and blessed them like they do. Like,
28:28
we do. We do talk about that.
28:30
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, I don't think that's so important.
28:34
Again, I can't remember.
28:37
I'm very steeped in Nandra Root.
28:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
28:39
>> Loren: I can't remember which book he talks about.
28:42
Like, one of his books, the Ministry in a Secular Age
28:45
series. He talks about the
28:48
importance of testimony, at least as I interpreted it.
28:52
But. Yeah.
28:54
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well. And I would say, like, when we have been
28:57
a bit more intentional in
29:01
my churches about creating space
29:04
for testimony, for sharing of, uh, faith stories,
29:07
it does have a multiplying effect, you know,
29:11
like, it does shift the culture
29:14
toward other people, even if they're not participating in
29:17
those studies. Just feeling a little
29:20
freer to talk as well. Yeah.
29:22
>> Loren: Uh, how do you think? Maybe I'm getting in the
29:25
weeds here, but when I think about
29:28
testimony in my youth,
29:31
like, there was this kind of, like, I think the
29:34
only. The real negative. And this is kind of what I'm.
29:37
I'm kind of feeling these emotional
29:40
memories of this. This kind of, like, pressure to, like,
29:43
you're always supposed to share, like, a positive testimony.
29:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, okay. Yeah.
29:46
>> Loren: I think that's the one negative I would say about,
29:49
like, certainly that
29:52
conservative Christian culture is, like, you're always
29:55
supposed to, like, this is what the Lord is doing in my life.
29:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
29:58
>> Loren: Rather than, like, boy, I
30:01
don't. You know, like, I. I kind of remember,
30:04
like, the. The. The, um, Mother
30:06
Teresa quote of, like, story she
30:09
shared, like, at the end of her life or. Or was shared perhaps after
30:12
her life.
30:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: I can't remember.
30:13
>> Loren: Yeah.
30:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: It might have, like, come out of.
30:15
>> Loren: Like, I haven't felt God's presence
30:18
in years. That was
30:20
definitely not something you necessarily share.
30:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right. Yeah. I think that there is
30:26
a lot more permission in
30:29
mainline churches to be able to say,
30:32
like, I don't know where God is right now, or,
30:35
um, to say, like, this is
30:38
where God showed up when everything didn't work out,
30:41
you know, And I think that's a really important
30:43
testimony is, like, sometimes I
30:46
think that we
30:49
construe, like, trusting in God meaning that
30:52
we trust God to do what I want and expect.
30:55
And like, then when what I want and expect happens, that
30:58
uh, is God showing up. But
31:01
like, I, I think the
31:04
biblical witness and I think the honest
31:06
witness of like a person of faith is
31:09
that like, a lot of
31:12
times things don't work out the way that you
31:14
hope or imagined.
31:17
Um, you know, we're not a, ah, theology of
31:20
like, manifestation. And
31:23
so, like, yeah, where does God show up when it
31:26
all falls apart is a really
31:29
good testimony that I think we maybe get more
31:32
in the mainline church.
31:35
I'm like, interested,
31:37
um, because I, I
31:40
notice this in myself right now at, ah,
31:43
this time in my life. Like, my theological concerns
31:46
are quite different than they were back when I was
31:49
like, fresh out of seminary. And
31:52
like, give me some examples of curious. Well, I think when
31:55
I got out of seminary, like, I was really eager
31:58
to explain to people how the Trinity works, you
32:00
know, and like, how
32:03
it really works out. Uh, the. Jesus was both
32:06
like, God and human.
32:08
>> Loren: Yes, it was true.
32:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: He said, that's right. Yeah. And like, I
32:12
just, I was so excited. Like,
32:15
oh, people just, like, they don't. They haven't had this explained
32:17
properly. Like, once I explain it properly, they're really
32:20
gonna be on fire for this stuff.
32:23
And, And I, uh, you know, like, I,
32:26
I'm still glad that there are theologians who are
32:29
working on that and giving us
32:32
language and like, different ways of thinking about it. But it's
32:35
not really where my concerns are these
32:38
days. Like, I'm really interested in
32:41
how our Christian faith, like,
32:43
speaks to our experience
32:46
of living in the world in the 21st
32:49
century. Like how it speaks to technology
32:52
and how it speaks to pop culture and how it
32:54
speaks to mental health and
32:57
our relationship with food and
33:00
um, world peace and
33:03
politics. Like, that's, I'm
33:05
very. Like, that's where my
33:08
theological leanings are right now is like,
33:11
why does this matter for the things that are like,
33:15
most on our minds these days? But do you
33:18
feel like your theology has shifted?
33:20
>> Loren: I mean, my theology has shifted so much from
33:23
being very conservative that
33:28
it's hard to kind of like narrow it down.
33:31
I think I, I feel very much those same
33:33
kind of practical questions. Like, I'm,
33:37
I'm like an enneagram5. So
33:40
I love kind of thinking deeply and
33:42
taking m. Information. Like, I just read
33:45
like, James Cone's book basically on
33:48
the plane. Like, you know, I read
33:52
80% of it and just finished it last night.
33:57
And I think what's, I think what has really
34:00
resonated me
34:02
from that is like his basically question,
34:05
as I understand it, was like, what is, like what
34:08
is modern day lynching? Like, what is that in
34:11
context today? Because if I understand what he was saying, it's like,
34:14
you know, Jesus was
34:18
the, you know, his crucifixion was like the uh, modern day
34:21
or was an ancient version of lynching and vice versa.
34:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, okay.
34:25
>> Loren: And like we
34:28
can't, like his critique of white Christian America
34:30
was like, you can't claim to follow a
34:34
crucified Jesus and then not
34:37
uh, look the other way when people
34:40
are crucified or lynched today.
34:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
34:43
>> Loren: So I feel like it's the same, I feel like
34:46
it's the same question you're asking, just in different words is like,
34:49
what, how, how is
34:52
it? Like, how do I
34:55
honestly live out my faith today
34:58
and in America? I feel like it's so challenging right
35:01
now because there's so much going on.
35:03
Mhm. And it's like I can't
35:06
be, I
35:09
can't be responding to everything like, because
35:11
there's so many things happening and some of that's purposeful.
35:16
So how do I, like how do I respond
35:18
faithfully to
35:21
things that I think are really important, but also
35:24
recognizing that I could be wrong and that.
35:27
I don't know. I think that just the
35:30
moral complexity and ambiguity and
35:35
I think that is.
35:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: A really big piece too certainly of
35:38
like Christian leadership in
35:41
middle age is that discernment
35:44
piece. Because like, I've
35:47
found myself um, involved
35:50
in pieces of
35:53
advocacy or like community
35:56
work that I never anticipated. You
35:59
know, like, it certainly wasn't on my
36:02
agenda to like, for example, get
36:05
involved with indigenous water in
36:08
Canada or right now I'm quite
36:11
involved in um, trying to establish
36:14
a community benefits network in town which is
36:17
like working with different levels
36:20
of government around like development,
36:23
like development projects and making sure that the
36:26
community benefits from that. And neither one of those,
36:29
like, were things that I thought
36:32
I was specifically,
36:34
um, setting out to do. But like,
36:38
you do have to follow your nose a little bit in
36:40
ministry. You have to be spirit led. Right.
36:43
Like, you have to see where, where,
36:46
like where you're led
36:49
and like where your gifts kind of align with
36:52
uh, a need of the world. But then I think the other part
36:55
of that whole discernment piece is being
36:58
able to recognize
37:01
that you can't do everything, you know, and
37:04
to be okay with that as well. Like it's okay to
37:07
follow a lead and
37:11
pursue a piece
37:13
and to be
37:16
able to do something rather than nothing
37:19
because you can't do everything.
37:22
>> Loren: Okay. Something I've got to ask you and I. This is kind of off script,
37:26
but forgive me, I think,
37:29
because I like you've been in, you've
37:31
been in quote unquote ministry 20 years
37:34
now, right?
37:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, over 20 years.
37:37
>> Loren: And I, I'm curious, like, what do
37:40
you think has worked for you or helped you
37:42
sustain that? Because I think like, even now,
37:45
like.
37:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: I.
37:48
>> Loren: I don't know if it's my personality. And I wonder maybe if it,
37:51
if you think personality has something to do with it. Like,
37:55
I could not. And um, I could not be the quote unquote,
37:58
senior pastor, lead pastor. Like, I just don't have the
38:01
social energy for it. And I wonder if that's a lot of what it is
38:04
is like as much as I like would to love to be on
38:07
a church staff somewhere. So I don't know if it. Maybe it's like there's just
38:10
not the right fit right now
38:13
in my world. But I wonder, like, I know you've talked about this
38:16
before, like, team ministry being an important part of
38:19
what sustained you.
38:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I've been a bit of a broken record about that
38:23
because,
38:25
um. Because I have
38:27
always served on a team, even when I've been in
38:30
a smaller church. And
38:34
um, I feel extremely grateful for
38:36
that because it has allowed me
38:39
to, um, not
38:42
be good at everything. But at
38:45
the same time, there's a lot of parts of ministry
38:48
that I would not say come naturally to me.
38:51
And um, and I've had to
38:54
get good at doing them. Like, I,
38:57
it is not in my nature to get up in front
39:00
of a crowd and speak. It's not. I am
39:03
an introvert by nature. But like, it is
39:06
a very extroverted job.
39:09
So in those pieces, I think
39:12
what has sustained me is
39:16
calling like, just being really clear
39:18
that, okay, like this is what I'm being called
39:21
to do. So I need God to
39:25
like, provide the, the
39:27
strength and resources and right, like,
39:30
ability to be able to do it. And
39:33
also like, I will. I'm
39:36
not going to do it forever.
39:38
>> Loren: I'm curious. I'm thinking again to a past guest
39:41
and hopefully I get her name right. Ariana Malloy.
39:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh yeah.
39:45
>> Loren: She talked about. I can't remember if this is our
39:48
conversation or conversation. She was on another
39:51
podcast I listened to. She talked about kind of
39:54
like camera, the term job
39:56
mapping or like kind of if you're in a.
39:59
If you're in a job that doesn't obviously in two jobs will
40:02
like 100% align with your calling. Like
40:06
trying to shift the job
40:08
requirements so that more stuff aligns with what you're
40:12
gifted to. Yeah, that's been
40:15
something you've tried to utilize.
40:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: I think, like, what comes to mind is when we
40:20
went into Covid, and,
40:23
uh, and I sort of had
40:26
this sense during COVID like,
40:29
I do. I want to have more fun in ministry.
40:33
Um, so I have, like, tried to build
40:36
in some parts in ministry that
40:39
I just find really fun. Like, for example,
40:42
our Wednesday night worship.
40:46
Um, we have a band that leads
40:49
the worship, like, you know, probably four or five
40:51
times a year. And so I sing with
40:54
them, which is, like, totally not part of my
40:57
job description, but it is
41:00
fun. And if I'm not, like,
41:03
preaching on a Sunday, I will sometimes sing with the choir
41:06
and, like. Yeah, just getting to,
41:09
you know, be an alto
41:12
and, like, play a supporting part in worship
41:15
rather than, like, being
41:18
constantly in the spotlight of worship. Yeah,
41:20
those parts have been, like, very sustaining for me because
41:23
they just allow me to, like,
41:26
have fun, you know?
41:28
>> Loren: Yeah, well, that's. That's good. That's good.
41:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
41:33
So I'm interested. Like, you know, you've
41:36
obviously been involved in Future Christian for a lot
41:39
longer than I have, and you do the bulk of the
41:42
episodes. I. I get to play more of a
41:45
supporting role in Future Christian. But
41:48
like, these week in, week out, uh, conversations that
41:51
you're having with, like, leading minds in
41:54
Christian leadership, like, how has that
41:58
shifted your
42:00
sense of what the most important
42:03
conversations are happening in the church right now?
42:06
>> Loren: Oh, um, man, that's a good question,
42:14
I think. I don't know,
42:17
and I could be wrong on this, but I
42:19
feel like, uh. Like, I feel like
42:22
the. The big question,
42:26
and this is kind of like what I preached about when I was a preacher a few weeks
42:29
ago is like,
42:33
it's like the belief in God thing. And you. You kind of
42:36
like, you. When you hinted about that about, like. Or when you're joking about
42:38
the Trinity, like, oh, people see, like, the right understanding
42:41
of the Trinity.
42:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
42:43
>> Loren: Like, I feel like that's so beyond what most people's
42:45
concept is.
42:48
I feel like. Like, the idea is, like,
42:52
does God exist? And if so, like, what
42:55
does that mean? Because I feel like there's just so much
42:58
pressure to, like,
43:01
the whole society. And I don't know what's, like, in Canada,
43:04
perhaps even more so in the state or than in the states,
43:08
if. If cliches are correct, like,
43:11
that we can function as if
43:14
God does not exist. And because there's, like,
43:17
this performative aspect of society
43:20
right now, like, you know, you're supposed to, like,
43:23
like, almost be An Instagram influencer about.
43:26
Oh, I'm the. You know, I'm a
43:28
fitness. You know, I'm, um, a runner. Like, Martha and I
43:31
are.
43:31
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
43:32
>> Loren: You know, we're, we're into running and,
43:35
you know, we gotta like, perform that on our
43:37
Instagrams. We don't. I don't. At least, you
43:40
know, we've got to be good Christian influencers. So I feel
43:43
like, because that there's so much.
43:46
I don't know, I just. To me, and I could be wrong.
43:49
That's the big.
43:53
I feel like that's a societal Christian thing that we're
43:56
not. I don't know.
43:59
I'm struggling to put into words. Does that make sense at all?
44:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, no, I mean, I think that that,
44:05
that makes a lot of sense. And I think that it
44:08
is such an important,
44:11
um, such an important point.
44:13
Like, I think that we. And
44:16
it comes back to that, like, middle age question.
44:19
And I think the spiritual needs of people
44:22
our age, like, yeah, we've been
44:25
brought up kind of in the.
44:27
This massive, like,
44:30
communication sea change,
44:33
you know, Like, I was in high school when
44:36
we first got the Internet, and like,
44:39
we just seem a million miles away from first
44:41
getting the internship. Right. Like, now we live on the
44:44
Internet. And.
44:45
>> Loren: And my wife was watching a movie last night.
44:50
Sandra, uh, Bullock, Ryan Reynolds, the
44:53
Proposal. And then she's in Alaska and they get up, she
44:56
gets up on dial up Internet. You hear that?
44:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
45:00
>> Loren: Whatever that noise is. And she kind of like,
45:03
asks, like, what is that noise? I'm like, Sandra Bullock. She would have
45:06
known what that noise is. Like, her character would have known. But anyway, I
45:09
digress.
45:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. But like, those questions about how we do
45:12
live as authentic people in that
45:15
performative world. And you're right to say that the
45:17
pressure to perform M is way beyond people who make
45:20
their life work as
45:23
influencers. And then, yeah, that
45:26
piece around, like, how
45:29
much we can sort of
45:32
accidentally live as functional
45:34
atheists because, like, yeah,
45:37
we just are very thoroughly formed
45:40
in the secular waters.
45:41
>> Loren: You know, I feel like the question would be like, does this matter? And
45:44
maybe that's for shape from my own kind of
45:47
milieu, to use a big word of like, M, like we talked
45:50
about at the beginning, like, being middle age
45:53
people, like, trying to figure out, like, what really matters.
45:56
So maybe that's just influenced by my own context. But I feel
45:59
like, does this really matter?
46:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like, yeah. And then if it does, like, how
46:04
so?
46:04
>> Loren: Right.
46:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: You know, and like, does it matter in just a
46:07
very personal way? Like, it gives me personal
46:10
strength and meaning and direction or does it matter
46:13
in like a more
46:16
like global sense?
46:18
>> Loren: Yes.
46:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: You know?
46:19
>> Loren: Yeah. And my bias is
46:22
I, I hope it matters more than just as a
46:25
self help tool. Yeah. For me. Right. I mean,
46:28
as much as I appreciate and I think that
46:31
would be my one
46:34
angster hang up or I'm not sure. I think
46:38
certainly that Christianity has been framed, I think in
46:41
many circles as just like a self help tool.
46:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I agree. But somehow I
46:47
feel like it's gotta matter in
46:50
a way that's somewhere in between the,
46:53
like, okay, on the one hand just a self help
46:56
tool, but on the other hand, if you don't get
46:59
like the exact formulation of the
47:01
Trinity. Right. Then you're probably
47:04
not gonna go to the right place after you die.
47:08
I, like, I, I feel like the God I
47:11
have met and being led and guided by over the past
47:14
46 years of my life, like,
47:18
I, I haven't met a God who is like
47:21
extremely hung up on the, uh, you know,
47:24
doctrinal intricacies of Christianity.
47:27
>> Loren: I saw this, you know, because this weekend was
47:30
Trinity Sunday. I saw this on social media. Like, pastors,
47:33
make sure you're not preaching these trendy hairs. Yeah.
47:36
And I'm just thinking, like, I probably
47:39
at some point in my life have explained the Trinity to someone else
47:42
correctly. Like, but I'm like, is that
47:45
like, I get it. Like, people have
47:48
spent their lives and
47:50
sometimes given their lives for the sake of.
47:54
But also it's like, is that really the point?
47:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, and I, like, I, by no means would I want
47:59
anybody to hear this conversation and think, oh, like,
48:02
I don't think theology matters or the
48:05
theology of the Trinity matters. Like, I think there's
48:08
something profoundly beautiful about
48:10
like, struggling to articulate our experience
48:13
of God in words. Like, I love,
48:16
I love theology.
48:17
I love that people are still
48:20
struggling to express it in words. But
48:22
like, on the other hand, I remember
48:25
passing a church like years ago that had
48:28
on its billboard out front, no room for
48:31
heretics.
48:32
>> Loren: Yeah.
48:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Which like, there must be a story
48:35
behind that billboard. But like
48:38
the church is full of heretics. Like, uh,
48:40
everybody's got heretical, like
48:43
things that they would express about, like
48:46
how they've genuinely experienced God.
48:49
>> Loren: Yeah. I don't know, maybe this is something else too.
48:52
Which goes back to your previous question. Like, I feel like I've
48:55
become a lot more comfortable with mystery. And that's like the word
48:58
that I just lean back to.
49:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: I like that.
49:02
>> Loren: Like, I just can't quite put my finger on it.
49:06
So I just will say it's a mystery.
49:10
Not that it's necessarily a noble, but I don't know
49:13
to describe it.
49:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, the word that comes to mind for me is awe.
49:17
Like. Like, though that's the
49:20
real feeling of encounter for me is,
49:23
like, those moments of awe. Awe, like just
49:27
kind of running up against beauty, you
49:30
know? Um, and, like, I don't mean
49:33
beauty, just in sort of
49:35
the traditional ways, but, like, yeah,
49:38
that. And I think that's very connected
49:42
to mystery.
49:43
>> Loren: Yeah. Okay.
49:45
Do we want to talk about
49:47
parenthood?
49:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, let's. Let's make parenthood kind of our
49:51
last.
49:52
>> Loren: I want to hear your wisdom. Um, there
49:57
fears behind you.
49:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Well, I don't know about
50:02
wisdom, but I do have a few observations
50:05
about my kids and their faith
50:08
that I find interesting because they're Gen
50:11
Zed,
50:13
um, although they will always tell me, mommy, it's
50:16
Gen Z. So I think
50:19
that Canadian kids also
50:22
call it Gen Z.
50:24
Um, so I don't think that, like,
50:27
their experience is necessarily representative
50:30
of, like, the whole demographic, but
50:33
there are things that are so different about their approach
50:36
to church and faith from what I grew up with
50:39
that I find very interesting. So, for
50:42
me, I was the only
50:45
kid in my church by the time I was
50:48
a teenager, and that was fine with me
50:51
because for me, it was about the ideas. It
50:54
was about, like, it was about an experience
50:57
of liturgy and prayer, and it was about
51:00
learning and ideas. And,
51:02
like, that's what drew me in. I don't think my
51:05
kids are that interested, honestly, in
51:08
the ideas of Christianity. Like, they're
51:11
interested in the community,
51:14
and they're interested in the friendship,
51:19
and they're
51:21
way more, um,
51:24
interested in the aesthetic of it
51:27
than I was as a kid. Like,
51:30
they really love, like, the traditional
51:33
architecture and the, like, that
51:36
sense of sacred space. Like, that is meaningful
51:38
to them. Um,
51:41
and, yeah,
51:44
so, like, that belonging, that
51:47
friendship, that aesthetic, that space, that
51:50
sacred space. And then, like, the
51:52
piece around inclusivity
51:55
is so. And that was important to me, too,
51:58
as a kid, for sure. But
52:01
they, you know, really care about being
52:04
part of a church that is
52:07
genuinely, um, open
52:09
to difference and
52:13
affirming. So,
52:15
yeah, those are kind of the. As
52:18
teenagers that I just see really
52:21
matter to them. And I,
52:24
you know, I'm sure that we could interview various guests
52:27
who could tell us what the broader studies are telling
52:30
us about that generation, but your kids are just, like, a
52:33
bit behind them. Um, what do you see?
52:37
>> Loren: I don't know, because I. I know that I felt this
52:40
really, like, hit me, like, two, three years ago. Like,
52:43
oh, my goodness,
52:45
like, I want My kids to grow up and
52:48
faith to matter to them
52:51
and push back on me. Martha,
52:54
if you feel differently, but at least in my context,
52:57
maybe entering the main line when I was in my
53:00
mid-20s, it felt
53:03
like there was this kind of like
53:05
osmosis kind of approach to youth ministry.
53:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like right.
53:09
>> Loren: Like oh, those get it because they're around
53:12
it, but we don't want to, like
53:15
let's not push them too hard or they're going to run away from
53:17
entirely. Which is certainly true. So I've been
53:20
trying to think like how can I balance, like,
53:24
how can I balance, like not
53:27
especially. You know, my, my daughter, she's entering
53:30
adolescence. Like how can I not
53:33
push or cajole but also be
53:36
like I'm um, I'm
53:39
doing it handing motion. Like hey, these are,
53:42
you know, establishing some things that are
53:46
important.
53:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I, I mean I do puzzle about
53:51
this in terms of like just how
53:54
effectively and I think this is shifting
53:57
from what we've seen and stuff. But
53:59
you know, the general
54:02
um, like
54:05
pattern has been that the evangelical
54:08
Christian world has been a lot better about
54:11
being generative and like passing the
54:13
faith on to the next generation.
54:17
And I like, but
54:20
I don't know why, like if I
54:23
tried to push anything on my kids,
54:25
they would instantly rebel. Like I don't know
54:28
how. It's just different. Different
54:31
in evangelical families. Like how do, how do
54:34
they do that?
54:36
>> Loren: I can only speak to my context
54:39
most specifically. I mean there is
54:42
to use a family system serum. There is the
54:45
togetherness pressure a lot greater in
54:47
those cultures. So I think, I mean
54:50
I think that's the double edged,
54:53
you know, the shadow side right. Of that is they tend to have
54:58
that generation or generative effect
55:00
because of that togetherness pressure. But then you get these
55:03
people who almost reject it entirely because they're like,
55:06
want to break free of that. Yeah, strong
55:09
culture. So I mean there's a double
55:11
edged sword to that for sure.
55:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean I think going
55:17
back to the
55:20
great de Churching, I did that uh, interview a
55:23
while ago. What I
55:26
think happens in mainline churches
55:29
more than a rejection of
55:32
the faith is that
55:36
um, life just edits the faith out,
55:39
you know, like it just gets in the way like
55:42
you. And maybe that's a cultural
55:45
thing. Like you know, people in the mainline church
55:48
do tend to have social
55:50
circles and you know, sports
55:53
and arts and music commitment that are not church
55:56
reliant. So the whole social fabric of
55:59
our kids lives is not built around the church.
56:02
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's a big difference.
56:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And so then you get into,
56:06
like, you go away to school, and then you
56:09
start a family maybe of your own or get a job or
56:12
all of the above. And, like, life just
56:15
gets in the way, and it's not so much a wholesale
56:18
rejection as just like, well.
56:20
>> Loren: And I'm reminded of your guest. We're going to have to reference all these
56:23
guests in the show notes. I'm reminded of what's her name?
56:26
The Mary Elizabeth,
56:29
uh.
56:29
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, Elizabeth Schrader, Polczer.
56:31
>> Loren: Because for some reason that her story
56:34
has stuck with me because it represents kind of that
56:37
stereotypical, like, grew up in the church,
56:40
walked away for time, and then kind of was drawn back to.
56:44
So, like, part of me is, like, just counting on
56:47
and trying to seal myself emotionally now
56:50
from my kids having this kind of like, walk
56:53
away or, you know, setting it down
56:56
or whatever metaphor we want to use, and just think,
56:59
like, what can I do in the short term
57:01
to, like, kind of give them
57:04
a good taste so that there's something to
57:07
use, uh, the. The book term. Something sticky about.
57:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, sticky.
57:11
>> Loren: The fates of that. But
57:14
they're gonna inevitably almost go through that whole.
57:18
I don't know if deconstruction is the right word, but like you said,
57:21
life and stuff gets in the way
57:24
and then be drawn back, perhaps.
57:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. I think.
57:30
I mean, I think that you want to,
57:34
um, lay the groundwork,
57:37
as you're saying. I think that,
57:40
like, you want to express why it
57:43
matters to you. I think that you want to be
57:45
visibly drawing on the resources
57:49
of the faith to get through the
57:51
challenges of life, which, as we started off this
57:54
podcast, insane. Yeah,
57:56
like, we. You get to middle age, like,
57:59
you're going to encounter challenges. Right. So, like,
58:03
bear witness to how you draw on
58:06
faith to do that. But,
58:09
yeah, one of the, like, just essentially
58:12
terrifying things about being a parent is that
58:16
there are just all these things outside of your control
58:19
at the end of the day. So.
58:22
>> Loren: Okay, uh, tell me what you think of this. I.
58:25
I had this observation,
58:28
and I texted it to a friend with teenagers, and he thought it was spot
58:31
on. But I had this observation that having, like,
58:34
little kids is, like, about managing their anxiety
58:38
when having teenagers about managing your own anxiety.
58:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, like, there's definitely something
58:47
to that. I. I've been saying
58:50
lately, like, if you notice a whole bunch of new
58:52
gray hairs on my head, it's because, like, now my
58:55
son is driving as well. And,
58:58
uh, like, having
59:00
kids driving, that's a pretty big
59:04
source of anxiety. But also.
59:07
But also, like, teenagers
59:10
carry a lot of anxiety, so. Yeah, no, you're still
59:13
going to be managing their anxiety, too.
59:19
>> Loren: Wow, that's a lot.
59:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, do you think that we should take a break? And,
59:24
uh, when we come back, I am going to
59:27
quiz you on your knowledge of Canada. Do you
59:30
think that you're ready for that, Loren?
59:32
>> Loren: Yeah. Scary. And a fun challenge.
59:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, it's, um, such a blast
59:37
being able to do this in person. And we'll be back in a minute.
59:43
Okay.
59:44
Welcome back to the Future
59:46
Christian Podcast. We are here live and in person
59:49
in St. Catharines, Ontario. And
59:53
this is Lauren's first time in Canada. So
59:56
in order to really welcome him to Canada, I'm going to test
59:59
him on his knowledge of Canada.
1:00:01
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm nervous about this.
1:00:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, so I am on a website
1:00:05
here that is called the Canadian
1:00:08
Encyclopedia. I'm going to ask you five questions, and
1:00:11
they're in the easy category, and these
1:00:14
are randomly generated. So I took the quiz this morning
1:00:17
and I got 100%. But my five questions
1:00:20
will be different from your five questions.
1:00:22
And listeners, you can try this
1:00:25
quiz along with Loren from
1:00:28
home.
1:00:29
Okay, so
1:00:32
here we go. And it's multiple choice.
1:00:34
>> Loren: Oh, okay.
1:00:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. First one, Banff national park is located
1:00:39
in which mountain range? The Appalachian Mountains,
1:00:42
the Laurentian Mountains, the Coastal Mountains, or
1:00:45
the Rocky Mountains?
1:00:46
>> Loren: Oh, my goodness. I'm gonna guess the
1:00:49
Rocky Mountains.
1:00:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: You are correct. Uh, okay.
1:00:53
>> Loren: I think that was just more of a geography like. Like general
1:00:55
knowledge. Yeah, I don't think the Appalachians. Do the
1:00:58
Appalachians go up to Canada?
1:01:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Uh, you're really asking the wrong person. I
1:01:03
don't think so.
1:01:04
>> Loren: My geography teacher might be proud
1:01:07
of me.
1:01:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, who are the Metis
1:01:12
descended from? So
1:01:14
indigenous peoples and Japanese fur traders. That's
1:01:17
your first option. Indigenous peoples and French
1:01:20
and Scottish fur traders and settlers.
1:01:23
Vikings and the Inuit. That's your third option.
1:01:26
Or fourth, Indigenous peoples and
1:01:29
Russian fur traders and settlers.
1:01:31
>> Loren: Oh, my goodness.
1:01:34
I'll say the indigenous and Russian.
1:01:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: That is incorrect. It is actually
1:01:42
the indigenous peoples and French and Scottish
1:01:45
fur traders.
1:01:46
>> Loren: Okay.
1:01:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Settlers.
1:01:47
>> Loren: Wow.
1:01:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, number three. So you're 50%
1:01:51
so far.
1:01:54
Okay.
1:01:55
>> Loren: I can't believe this is easy.
1:01:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: I know. Yeah. In
1:01:59
1980, Terry Fox began a
1:02:02
cross country run, the Marathon of Hope,
1:02:05
to raise money. For what cause?
1:02:08
Cancer research, Cystic fibrosis,
1:02:11
heart disease or diabetes.
1:02:14
>> Loren: Hmm. Uh, cystic
1:02:17
fibrosis?
1:02:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: No, cancer.
1:02:22
Well, I mean, anybody who is a Canadian who's
1:02:25
listening along would know that answer because he is
1:02:28
like a national hero. But I understand
1:02:31
why. Well, no, I understand why you wouldn't
1:02:33
necessarily know that. And it's kind of interesting to
1:02:36
realize that, like, this,
1:02:39
like, national icon for us
1:02:42
is sort of outnot unknown outside of Canada.
1:02:45
Okay. Number four, what was
1:02:48
a term used to refer to Great Britain's acquisition
1:02:51
of Canada after France lost many
1:02:54
territories in the Seven Years War?
1:02:57
Okay, so the takeover,
1:03:00
the conquest, the big
1:03:03
oops or the land loss?
1:03:09
I. I don't know. Just guess.
1:03:13
>> Loren: Land loss?
1:03:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: I don't think that's right. But it was the
1:03:17
conquest. All right,
1:03:19
so, um, I'm struggling here.
1:03:22
That's okay. You're still. You're still allowed to visit us
1:03:25
in Canada. We'll still take you to Tour Niagara. Here's
1:03:28
the last one. An inukshuk
1:03:31
is typically made of wood
1:03:34
or fabric or stone
1:03:36
or plastic.
1:03:40
>> Loren: Wood.
1:03:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: No, it's stone.
1:03:45
So these are. Oh, you probably won't see them around
1:03:48
here, but when you travel a little bit up north,
1:03:51
you will see these little stone monuments along the
1:03:54
highway, and those are inukshuks.
1:03:56
>> Loren: Interesting.
1:03:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. All right.
1:03:59
>> Loren: Getting invited, you know,
1:04:02
anytime soon here for permanent residency?
1:04:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, you'd have to brush up on some things, but,
1:04:07
like, fair enough. One out of five.
1:04:09
>> Loren: Sure.
1:04:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: You're gonna know a lot more by the end of today because
1:04:13
like I said, Dan is a real Niagara,
1:04:16
uh, connoisseur, so he's gonna.
1:04:19
He's gonna share some of the history with you.
1:04:21
>> Loren: Yeah, well, uh, I think this has been great. I feel
1:04:24
like now we're gonna have, like, our. Is our home base
1:04:27
of the podcast gonna be Saint Catharines? Is that the question?
1:04:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, I really like that idea. Isn't it, like,
1:04:33
so nice recording in person? It's so much
1:04:36
better than being on a screen.
1:04:39
So, you know, if you can just like, commute
1:04:41
every day from Colorado to St. Catharines.
1:04:44
Yeah, Yeah.
1:04:45
>> Loren: I will say, like, the flight to Buffalo
1:04:49
was not that bad. And getting across
1:04:51
the border was where some wood had knocked
1:04:54
you. You know, that's not
1:04:57
wood, but, yeah, so far, so good.
1:05:00
But yeah, looking forward to,
1:05:03
uh, doing more and seeing the sights
1:05:06
today.
1:05:07
But I guess, should we sign off
1:05:09
with our traditional sign off?
1:05:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, let's sign off with our traditional sign off. And
1:05:14
also, like, maybe I'll have to come to Colorado at some
1:05:17
point.
1:05:17
>> Loren: Yeah, that would be fun, too. That would be fun,
1:05:20
too.
1:05:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, may God's peace be with you, Loren, and also with
1:05:24
you and all of our listeners.
1:05:26
>> Loren: Amen.
1:05:34
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:05:37
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1:05:39
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
1:05:42
questions, comments, and ideas for future
1:05:44
episodes. Visit our
1:05:46
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1:05:49
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
1:05:52
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1:05:54
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1:06:03
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