Latest / The Daily Writer / Book Coaching Call with Dan Cumberland, Founder of The Meaning Movement

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Book Coaching Call with Dan Cumberland, Founder of The Meaning Movement · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit Daily RiderLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: I am excited to bring you our very first live book coaching call today.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: The purpose of these coaching calls is to share a real life book coaching session to help an author or entrepreneur develop a book idea that can grow their influence and impact.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: My guest is Dan Cumberland, founder of the Meaning Movement, which is a blog, podcast, and community of people pursuing deeper meaning in what they do.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Dan has been helping people find their place and their work in the world since 2005.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: He started working professionally with clients one-on-one in 2011.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: And since then he has facilitated classes, taught, and spoken often on the topic at various events, schools, and forums.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Dan's work has also been featured in Fast Company, Entrepreneur Magazine, The Chicago Tribune, U.S.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: News and World Report, CBS, and many other places.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And on today's call, we worked through Dan's initial idea for his book, how it ties into the big picture of his business, and some potential outlines for his book.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Again, this is my first book coaching call that I'm including here on the podcast.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Probably we'll be doing many more of these, but I wanted to give this a royal because I wanted you to get a sense of what it's like to work with a book coach and also to give you ideas for your own book that you're probably planning as well.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Dan is an awesome guy, and you're immediately going to hear his heart for people, his heart for serving, and also some really cool ideas that he has in store for the book that he's working on.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So here's my book coaching session with the amazing Dan Cumberland.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Dan, I am so excited and a little bit intimidated because I have so much respect for you and what you do, and I've known I've known you for for a number of years now.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I say intimidated because it's a little bit scary to do this on the podcast, you know, do kind of a coaching call.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm super excited because I love the stuff you're doing, and I'm really excited to dive into a possible book idea.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I feel like the the feeling is is mutual.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just so so pumped to to get to to benefit from your your wisdom, wisdom, and expertise.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um love what you're doing, love love the podcast.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, listen to many, many episodes myself.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And oh thank you.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what so many others need.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for making such a great resource for us.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll see how this turns out and if I'm actually of any value on this call.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: We'll withhold judgment until the end and you can tell me whether or not this is valuable.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I hope it's valuable.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So let's kind of let's start here.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about the book idea that you that you have in mind, even if it's not really fleshed out, or you're not really sure what you want with it or you want from it.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start there and then I'll dig into what your overall business is and what your goals for that are and how a book might tie into that.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I always want to start with what what what are you coming to this call with today in terms of the book that you think you might want to do?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's so so great.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and this has even shifted since we first um touched base and kind of started spitting ideas like what if I I I could use some help with this, and what if we did this on the on the podcast?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I with my brand, I've been in a bit of a um re-evaluation and repositioning of the entire brand of the meaning movement.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, with with the podcast, with um the coaching that I do, all of that.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really um moving more, getting more specific in who I'm trying to help and what I'm trying to help help um help them with.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so really focusing in on entrepreneurs, really to put it in a sentence would be um, and I should have this like down nice and crisp.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not there yet, but uh helping entrepreneurs align their their life and business goals, so bringing balance to to the life of an entrepreneur.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Many of us start our entrepreneurial journeys wanting to uh find, you know, to get make more money, to have less stress and to have more freedom, but then end up not with with no none of those things, building a business that maybe becomes a a bit of a beast that um that we end up serving.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so wanting to recapture and reclaim our energy, our motivation and and our lives to build um a life and business that that we love.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of um been a little bit of a pivot from where I have been with the meaning movement, still really focused on fulfillment and purpose, but but really focused in on that problem that um entrepreneurs face.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so that gives me a little bit more clarity on what how a book would fit into that idea.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've for a long time felt like I want to write something around fulfillment and around work, um, but it has felt like such a broad topic that I've kind of felt like a little bit of a deer in a headlight, deer in the headlights.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've been building the meaning movement for over 10 years now.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's um, but have never really honed in on like this very specific demographic that I'm trying trying to serve.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I actually have pulled up list a list here as the in since our last conversation, and since I've been kind of further defining this um this demographic, like there's a few different ideas around entrepreneurship and identity.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like that's something that I that I love around that that feels related to all of this is um as entrepreneurs, we um and I feel like I I want to I want to hear if this resonates with you, but you have to you all you always have to become a different person, like to take your business to the next the next place that it needs to go.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's this constant process of reinventing yourself.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I feel like something about like just like I don't feel like there's there's many resources about the internal world of entrepreneurship.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so all these ideas are kind of getting at that.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: The one another is is um that yeah, the inner the the inner world of the entrepreneur.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I actually what I wanted to say with that one, so that's the second kind of these are these are my working working titles, uh is wanted to kind of play on the idea of the um what is that that book, the inside, the inner world of tennis?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the one?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, the inner game of tennis.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're familiar with that book.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's a yeah, I think I've heard of that.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a very famous as far as people who are like into sports psychology.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the inner game of tennis, the classic guide to the mental side of peak performance.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're into peak performance and athleticism, like that's kind of like one of the one of the the uh first books that really started talking about it um directly, but want to kind of play on that, like the the inner game of entrepreneurship or something like that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then similarly, like something around like emotionally the emotionally healthy entrepreneur or something like that, or mental, you know, it's it's about mental health, about emotional health, and it's about balance and freedom.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so those are that's the big jumble of topics that I'm I'm I'm thinking about as I'm thinking about writing something.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that it does feel more focused than when we first started chatting.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I was at that point thinking more of like something more like uh, I don't know, uh like I love Parker Palmer's little book, Let Your Life Speak, which is more about vocation and and maybe like these existential questions.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: But this is a little bit more.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's on that shelf right there behind me.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's somewhere on that shelf up there somewhere.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll start with that little pink book.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've given away like you know 15 copies in over over the last 10 years.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I know it well.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's where that that's that's what that's the big jumble that I'm bringing into this.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I always try and in my own mind, I I always like to restate things to make sure I can articulate the problem uh correctly.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm understanding correctly, the problem that you're trying to solve, both with the business that you that you're moving toward as well as the book, is essentially that you're helping entrepreneurs to build a business and a life that they love, as opposed to building a business that imprisons them, because that is what happens a lot of times.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, there's kind of this this narrative of people try to get away from their W-2 or their day job, but then as you build your own business, it's really easy to create a prison of your own making.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly right.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're entrapped by your schedule, by tons of Zoom calls or things.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: It could be a hundred different things, but you're entrapped by all the all the stuff around building your business, and you haven't really created freedom, you've just created a different kind of prison.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that is exactly right.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: You said it so well.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's interesting, and I resonate with some of that too.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I'm not that far into my own full-time entrepreneurial journey.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the scariest things that that we can realize as business owners and entrepreneurs is that we are the problem.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And because so many times, you know, in a if you have a day job or or if you have an employer, it's so easy to blame everybody else for your own unhappiness or your own frustrations because there's always somebody to blame.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're the business owner, there's nobody else to blame.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's it's you because if there's something that you don't like in your business, well, you're the boss, so you can change it, but it's like at the same time, it's the easiest thing to change, but it's also the hardest to change because we can be our own worst bottleneck.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we can we can be our own worst bosses, right?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh we can be the most cruel and punishing of bosses to our to ourselves.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's exactly right.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think similarly, um, like it's easy to say uh point finger at entrepreneurs and say, well, you know, we should be able to do whatever we want, but it's you know, uh I feel like in a similar similar way that entrepreneurship just brings certain things to the surface in uh ways that are um, I don't know, just maybe easier to to highlight.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And like just like you said, like we all have we always have choice, right?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: But as an entrepreneur, it feels like you have more choice.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: When the reality is, you know, someone working a job, they have choice whether or not they want to stay in that job and everything else.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's also what where it really connects to that identity piece for me, because I feel like everyone, like I feel like life is always about becoming life, is always about becoming the next version of yourself, of who you know the the universe or God is is calling you to be and becoming that.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's this ever-changing um process.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: But with entrepreneurs, it's so it feels so much more specific and so much more um like I guess again, easy to kind of point your finger at because of the uh just the way that your income so much relates to that.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and so you know you start your business and then you have to figure out how to how to be a marketer, how to how to do sales, how to build a funnel, how to write copy, how to, you know, on and on and on and on.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I feel like just entrepreneurship is just such an interesting lens to look at all of these, uh I feel like all of these aspects of being human through.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what gets me excited about, you know, writing a book, potentially, uh around around these ideas.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a fantastic idea.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: These are themes that I resonate with personally, and I see it because I just like you, I spend a lot of time around people who own their own business, writers, content creators, people doing courses, communities, memberships, all those kinds of things.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I see the same themes over and over again.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: I see people getting paralyzed by lots of options, by issues of self-confidence, by not knowing what direction to go, because you see on social media in particular, you see everybody's wins.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really easy to think, oh, that guy over there, he's doing XYZ things in his business.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I should be doing.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then you multiply that by 25, you know, over the course of a few years, and you're just you're going in all these different directions.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you can have several successful things going, perhaps, even you know, multiple streams of income.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're really imprisoned by those systems and by your schedule, it's it doesn't really produce a lot of joy or freedom.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's like, oh, I'm back in I'm back in a job except I'm the boss, and I don't have anybody to blame but myself.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and success is it's easy to measure entrepreneur success.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this is where it's like such an interesting lens for me or for humanity.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that person is uh is successful because they have a business that's you know doing X, Y, Z, making this, this or the or that amount of money.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: But just like you're saying, if their lived experience of that running that business, of owning that business isn't positive or isn't, you know, net, yeah, like taking them, like creating the life that they want, then what can they even call it a success?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there's often this um what what's the right word, uh, divide between like the the external uh view of of their life and and how others might view them as well uh versus the the felt experience that they're living in of like, yeah, this is uh this is this is a prison, this is a beast, this is a monster that I that I can't escape.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Totally uh similar, similar, maybe similar to uh, you know, maybe the the the person in a career that they're very far advanced in and uh and you know have some golden handcuffs and they hate their job, right?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a similar, maybe similar uh setup uh in in the end.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: So let's leave that there for a minute.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I I love the concept, I really, really I resonate with it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let me leave that there for a second.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And can you talk a bit about what you might be transitioning your business to and how a book like that might tie into it?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And here's why I'm asking that is because like of course, you know, I'm a ghostwriter and I write my own books as well.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the greatest sins that a ghostwriter can commit, I believe, is writing a great book for somebody, but you've written the wrong book.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because if somebody's business and life is going one direction, but you help them write a book, or you write a book for them rather, that takes it in a different direction where now they've got to invest all these resources and time and energy promoting this book and developing all the stuff around it.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, marketing assets or or maybe they're develop developing courses or talks on that, but it's not really where they want to go, then that's actually a huge detriment to their life and business.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I think yeah, it's really important to connect the book to then what you actu what you actually want to build or where you're going.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because otherwise, then you're gonna be your attention's gonna be divided and it's gonna be, I think, worse than before.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: So let me speak to that.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so what the way I view the next, at least the next iteration of the business.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the the financial engine for the for the meaning movement over the last seven or so years has been um a course called the calling course, which I'm um closing down enrollment for and pivoting towards serving this demographic specifically, entrepreneurs, um, in a group coaching um format.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not at this at this moment, at the moment of this recording, I'm not sure what that um that uh what I'm gonna call this, you know, some sort of accelerator um like that.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna it's going to be a um three-month journey um with probably we'll probably have two two sessions a week where I'll be leading people through.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: We'll start with an assessment.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that'll be the kind of the entry point.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: The entry point of the funnel will be an assessment um that I'll have probably at the meaning movement.com/slash start or something like that.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: If people want to who are listening now, uh whenever you're listening, you can go to that URL and see what that becomes.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that assessment will give uh kind of look at a lot of different areas of related to business and life and that felt experience of running the those those bit their business.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully the idea is to give some actionable takeaways for people to take that assessment, have some things that they can work on.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then also then I'll they'll have an invitation to jump on a call with me and I can put together a game plan with them, see if that's something that um you know hopefully offers some good value.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then also, um, if it's a good fit, invite them to join one of the next accelerator groups.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: The accelerator would be groups of ideally four to 10 people, somewhere in that range going through this journey together.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: That journey is going to follow the framework that I've developed uh with the calling course was based on it with my one on one-on-one work that predated the um the calling course.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I see that as being the next iteration.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh maybe down the road, I might, you know, if that as I scale that up, maybe bring in other uh facilitators to run programs like that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would see this book as being a way to get, you know, to a way to to I mean, one, just help people.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a that's a big part of it.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: But like you said, like it also needs to serve serve the business um to bring to build awareness, you know, help people and build awareness and then um point people to that that assessment or in into that, you know, hopefully into those accelerator programs.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if they want to work on implementation alongside of a lot of like-minded entrepreneurs.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the meaning movement as it exists now, will will that continue to exist in some form?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the meaning movement, it it will continue to exist in some form, but it's really um gonna be the the name under which this new focus will live.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: So the podcast will be, you know, instead of uh guests, you know, across a lot of different demographics, a lot of different career paths, we'll be I'll be doing more interviews with entrepreneurs um and other experts who are serving entrepreneurs.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the resources available at the meetingmovement.com will have an entrepreneurial flavor to them.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha, gotcha.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the so will you continue with your podcast?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: I will, yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it will be, you know, just kind of more directed towards entrepreneurship.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you spent so much time building up the meeting movement as a as a brand and as an identity that it just makes sense to continue with that, but like maybe shift the focus of it a little bit.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that that's been one of the hardest parts because I like I know that there are people in my audience that aren't entrepreneurs, and will I, you know, will I will I lose them um due to this shift?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and I might.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also I hope that again, by using this lens of entrepreneurship, even if you're not an entrepreneur, the truths that I think that emerge by by focusing even on a more specific demographic, the truths about what it means to to be human and to to um you know this process of identity and formation, hopefully then will also translate to the folks who aren't entrepreneurial in their choices.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I really love all this, and I I think that you bring a super interesting perspective to all this because so much of the business stuff out there, masterminds or courses or podcasts or whatever, it's it's like focused on the strategies and the nuts and bolts and and you know 16 different ways to make a million dollars in the next 17 seconds, you know, kinds of you know, Facebook sponsor posts and all that stuff.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: I get those too.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a there's a place for all those things.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I love that you're bringing a a heart and a perspective to it that that's if I'm interpreting this correctly, is basically saying let's let all of the the business stuff flow out of who you are as a person and knowing what your purpose is and being comfortable with that and embracing that because when you have those elements in your life and business, what you do in terms of the stuff that you're producing or the the programs you're offering, that has so much more depth and uh authenticity to it.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, rather than just saying, I think I'm gonna do this three-month program on XYZ and I'm gonna offer it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then then you see the person two years from now, they've radically adjusted to something else.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, to me, this this it's almost like you're living out in front of people's eyes the very thing that you're wanting them to take away from it because you're transforming, you're transitioning.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you're you're evolving as a business leader.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would assume you're not doing the exact same thing as you were 10 years ago.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that none of us is.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, totally.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: I totally totally agree.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it I I I love that this is you know resonating with you because I haven't I haven't shared it with that many folks yet.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really fun to be to be you know getting your your feedback on it.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I really do believe that like I I am so turned like uh before we hit recording, it was just recorders talking about a conference I was at a couple weeks ago.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: It was about all focus on business and owners and entrepreneurs, a whole room of business owners and entrepreneurs, and some of the sessions people got up on stage and talk about all their numbers and and you know all the great things they did as a business leader, but like some of them just felt so devoid of heart.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I just like yeah, I and and I don't know that that's just a that's just a bit of who I am.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And anyone who if you listen to my podcast, you know, like I cry, I cry, I cry a lot, you know, I get emotional.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's just who I am.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: But also I feel like um I uh maybe because I've I've lived in this body for you know 40 years now, and uh I've just come to accept that about myself, but also like maybe that's not just a a uh something to to get over, but like I think maybe one of part of my my gifts, uh one of the things that I can uniquely contribute is is inviting people to to feel and that we can bring do business in a way that that is more human, that it has more feeling, more soul in it.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe there's a handful of ramifications of that.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that one, if we're doing things that that that make us feel fulfilled, that we are excited about, you know, being a being a part of.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there's you know, we can talk about how all my theories of the different things that that um that make for meaningful work, meaningful business.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you're doing business you love, you're gonna stay with it a lot longer, which means that it's gonna, you know, whether or not, you know, I I Not gonna you know make any promises that you're gonna you know make seven or eight figures or whatever as being a part of the the program that I'm that I'm building, but I believe that you're gonna be more successful even by the numbers simply because you're building a business that you want to be a part of for longer.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of us make um when you're when you're in a role, when you're building a business that you don't love that is disconnected from who you are, you end up making other sacrifices.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's got to give one way or the other.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So either sacrifices on your the personal side where your you know your marriage falls apart, or whatever, whatever else, you know, the the uh the reason there's a reason that we talk about the midlife crisis and whatever, whenever that happens, or whatever that looks like, it's a category of the the the fallout of giving your life to something that doesn't align with who you are.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So whether it's it happens on the personal side or on the business side because you're like, I just need to sell this business because I can't do it anymore.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Either way, they're million-dollar mistakes, and I want to help people avoid those mistakes.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they are avoidable mistakes.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is one of the most profound things I've heard in a long time.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: That what can you say that again about midlife crisis?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Did I want to make sure I heard it correctly?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I heard it.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was the idea of the midlife crisis comes from giving your life to a business that what was the thing you said after that?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh something along the lines of like that a mid midlife crisis, the the reason midlife crises happen is that we're giving our lives to something that we don't believe in, that we're we're having to um, you know, put maybe you could think of it as as you're a you're you're forcing a square peg into a round hole, you're doing that long enough, like something something's gonna break.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's one of the ways that that's one of the ways I believe that that's things break down.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's either gonna happen on the personal life, um, if you if you you know prioritize the work life and and just stay the course there, it's there's gonna be a blowout on the personal side, or if you actually attend to that, to the personal things, and again, the work, if the work isn't a good fit, then that work has to change.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so then people end up, you know, you're selling your business, quitting your job, making sacrifices on that side in either direction.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: In my opinion, they're they are you know, as I said, like they they're million-dollar mistakes, whether that's a divorce, whether that's you quitting a quitting or selling a business way too early because you couldn't make it um into something that you loved.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that that's really profound.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm 48 and I went through a not to go on a whole long thing, but when I in my starting in my late 30s, I really began to go through this really pu strong period of questioning what I wanted to do, and I was very frustrated for a whole bunch of reasons.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh, none of which had to do with my family or marriage.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, that I feel like that was the only like really stable thing in my life.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was holding it together.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: That was, you know, like home is where I found my being rooted and uh and everything.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt very fortunate about that.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I also happened to marry a very patient and uh amazing woman who I'm still married to, my wife Melanie, of course.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting because I I've seen a lot of people, a lot of friends of mine, crash and burn, beginning in their mid-30s to up through probably 50s, I guess.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: But but there's something about at least for guys, that late 30s to mid-40s time where a lot of people crash and burn.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder if that's not analogous in some way to what you're talking about related to entrepreneurs.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Where there's there is a midlife crisis of sorts for people in their business ownership and their business leadership.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And what what do those things look like and how can you help them avoid that?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a all is that kind of a fair analogy to make about kind of where you want to take?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think it I think it's completely true.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So whether whether you're work, you're applying your work to a to a job and have a you have a midlife crisis or to a you know building your business, and and there's there's this crisis that that emerges because the business isn't in line with with who you are.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think that they're they're they're perfectly line up.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's interesting to me that it seems like that you that you maybe thought the heart component of what you bring to it could potentially be a liability because you don't want it to be you know, you want it to be practical and helpful and everything.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think I've at least in my perspective, you've seen the heart element as something that was central to the meaning movement as it has been, but maybe wouldn't be central to this new thing.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, like you mentioned before, I think that's your main gift.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, to people because this is where this is where I might our feelings about this, Kent.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I spoke at a conference, this is probably seven or eight years ago.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I um Yeah, no, well, it wasn't quite that long.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was four years ago because I was talking about when my my daughter, my second child, was was born.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and she's she's four now.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was, you know, had this this um it was all about affiliate marketing, and I was gonna share about you know what I'd done with affiliates and all this stuff.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh a friend of mine challenged me, he's like, that doesn't sound like Dan.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you're right.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I changed the the whole the whole thing the the night before.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: I stayed up super late and I just told my story and got really emotional about it and like ended up ended up in tears, which I often do.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I was just like, it's helped me, you know.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm chat I'm yeah, I'm I'm jet lagged, I stayed up too late writing this.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then um in his room, you know, the people in the room didn't, I think a lot of them maybe didn't even know what to do with me.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then the guy that got up afterwards, he got up and he's like, if I end up, if I end up crying up here, well, wouldn't you come up here and punch me in the face?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um like the the first thing, the first thing that he said.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um which I just like, I mean, that was clearly just directed right at me.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but I I carry that in me even as I'm thinking about this, because I because I know that not everyone, not everyone is.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he even said it, it's not his exact words.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was much more um misogynistic.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: He said something about being a you know, a sissy girl or like whatever, like um, and you know, that's that's him and his problems, but I still carry I still carry that in me of like, yeah, I don't, I don't, I know I know that not everyone is gonna relate to like the fact that I have that that I have a lot of feelings.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Not everyone wants to live their lives like that, but I think a lot of us a lot of people do though an invitation, an invitation to feel more and that and to know that that's okay, and that that that's even a even a gift, and that those feelings can guide us into like the work, the the businesses, building businesses that we believe in, that we love, that we want to stay committed to for the long haul.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever seen the Godfather movie?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that movie.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it too.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: One of the the this conversation makes me think of you know one of the catchphrases in there where Michael Corleone is is making these plans to go to go take care of uh a mobster and a police officer that are really causing their family problems.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and they're just saying, hey, you know what, it's it's uh it's business, it's not personal.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of a phrase that people toss around a lot still.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: That well, this is business and our personal lives don't have any, don't have any place in that.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's completely the opposite.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing more personal than business.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's always personal.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's one of my like one of my like of course you have feelings at work because you're human at work, just like you are at home, just like you are in all of like and you are the same person in all of those areas.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, like sure, we don't, you know, you have to show up differently for the different responsibilities, right?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, like um, it is personal.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Work is work and should be.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think work at its best should be personal.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: It almost makes me think that somebody should do a book called it's not instead of it's it's business, not personal, it's business and it's personal.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that's not actually a very good book title, but but kind of that concept.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: It gets at the right concept, yeah.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: It feels it feels on brand for me.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I love it.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I love the direction you're going with this, and I think there are a lot of people who resonate with this.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the ones who don't, who who just are like the hard charging people who don't they're uncomfortable with emotion and those kinds of things, you know, that doesn't seem to be the crowd that would resonate with this, nor with me because I'm wired very much the same way that you are.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: I try to be very heart-centered in what I do, and yeah, and you do as well.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that's just part of uh, you know, choose choosing to to put your stake in the ground a little bit and just say this is what I'm about, and some people are not going to resonate with that, and that just has to be okay.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get back to the to the book for a minute.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um do you have do you have some specific ideas for what you would want to include in a book?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like framework.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, even so I feel like this idea is this idea is resonating with you.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Can't I'm like, okay, no, I can't tell me what what do I need to write now?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do I write this book?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do have there's a handful of things.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think the way that I would try to tackle this, I the way that I would think about it, is one I would think about, you know, some of my own story of struggling with these things and um want to use that narrative, you know, throughout the book.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I have some frameworks that um that I've used with clients in the meaning movement and you know that the calling course was was based off of, which I you know uh loosely call called the meaning, the meaning method, um, which is a methodology for for uh traditionally or in the past I've used it for helping people discern what to do next.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that it also can be helpful for uh helping entrepreneurs really clarify what it is that they want their business to be about or how they fit, you know, how they want to build their business in a way that that suits them.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, break that down into two different sections.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: I also have a framework, um, the four the four P's to talk about it, the the four different areas of meaning in um in work, which are the people, the process, the product, and the profit.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that that's a really, I think, a really helpful lens for thinking about the business that you're building and how you're cultivating meaning in in those four different areas.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of things that I'm like, yeah, I think I could put all these things into into the into a book, but I don't really know beyond that, like how how to how to go from that to a to a structure to a you know to chapters to sections to to all of that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's all that's all figure addable.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even sure if that's a real word, but I like it.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: But uh all all that stuff is kind of it's I'm not just gonna I'm not gonna say it's just details because I don't want to minimize it.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say my main my main question at this point would be as someone reads your book, what do you want them to do at the end of the book?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever the book ends up being, what specific actions would you like them to take with you when the book is done?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Would it be so like from a funnel for the accelerator program?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, from a business standpoint, it'd be a funnel for the accelerator program.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as a as a you know, a larger aspirational goal, like to go and like make the world a better place and make make it build a better business that they love.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think totally I think also, and I we haven't even talked about this, but I really believe that if you're building a business that you love, it's gonna be a better business for the people that are in it and a better business for the world.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so there's there is like high, I think, a higher philosophical or aspirational you know vision behind it.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: But as far as the business objectives, exactly like you said, um, I would love to have people you know opt in to be a part of one of my accelerator programs.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any thoughts on on are you going to share a specific framework in the accelerator program or whatever it ends up being, some kind of a process or or whatever that might be?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'm still kind of constructing that as we go.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll be running the first accelerator starting next the beginning of next year, um, which it will be kind of my my my guinea my guinea pig, my test kitchen.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I have some ideas of of similar content that I've just shared, you know, whether it's the the meaning method, the the four Ps framework, probably piecing together a few few pieces from that to make a guided experience out of that.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I think a lot of the power of of the accelerator is going to be from doing it, doing it with people that have similar values and have a similar approach to their to their business, and to get their input on um, because so many of these things are like you you can't um it's like you can't see the forest for the trees, you know, a little bit because you're like so so close to you're so close to your business that you can't really even see like how how it might need to change.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so to be able to have collaborators, you know, who are looking at it and saying, you know, you you keep talking about this, but then I see you doing this, like what's going on there?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's I think there's gonna be a ton of power, even just you know, from that aspect.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: But so we'll have a framework, we'll go through that framework, and then I think there's it's just gonna be multiplied, you know, the power of the experience will be multiplied by the people that are participating.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my oh my gosh, yeah.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like before I hit recording this, we were talking about last week.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm not this this episode will come out probably late November, early December, or something like that.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but we were talking so we're recording this on October the 24th.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: So last week we were talking about how I did a retreat for my Daily Writer Club group, and it was great.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think those live events are so great.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: And being a part of a mastermind or a group is great because you get the combined wisdom of the whole group.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, like whatever process you're teaching in there is just going to be amplified radically by having great people within that program, yeah.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Which is really, really exciting.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely, totally.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I I get really excited, I get goosebumps thinking about it because I think it's just like, and I think that's where I always felt like really, really limited in one-on-one setting when I was doing one-on-one coaching, is is that it's all the pressure's on me to like bring all the wisdom and bring all the you know all the insight.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so to be able to share that, you know, I'm there as more of a facilitator and you know, guiding through the content, but the wisdom really I think emerges you know from the from the collective.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And plus there's an element of accountability there.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we don't we don't want to let people down in the group.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's also a sense of healthy competition, which I think can be really positive.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're when you're you know, running with the horses, that's different than running with the goats.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I totally just made that up.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what that's a phrase.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it is not.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that sticks.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Run with the horses, not with the goats.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: But it is, it really is true.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that was some of some of the the when I think back of when when I was doing one-on-one coaching and the sessions that I just liked the least.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure like maybe people who are more um yeah, have been coaching longer find ways to mitigate this.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: But like when you have when you have a client, you've been going over, you know, leading them through a process and they just need to take action, and then they haven't done anything, and then they have another session, and it's like, okay, so now I have to fill 60 minutes of of of and make this feel valuable to you, even though like you haven't done any things that we talked about you doing last time, and um, and like that was you know our next steps are based on the results of those actions you haven't taken.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so now what do we do?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that I think having that community aspect where you can see other people taking action, which then makes you feel like, oh, I need to do that.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then also you have to be respond, you have to respond to them and ask, you know, give your updates and and share where you are in the process.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's like kind of that the two-pronged accountability that that comes out of part of it, and hopefully in a really positive way.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't agree more.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about um about the book itself for a bit.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: If we can.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because that's what this is all about, after all, I guess.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I like to dig into kind of the bigger picture to see where the book can fit in.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's super helpful.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a great approach.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: So would you would you be using the same framework in the book as you would in the accelerator program?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that makes sense.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I think it does too.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's logical.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't know why, I don't know why I wouldn't, I guess.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you said it's a four-part framework.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Was that the four P's?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or what was it when the four P's?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's the four the four P's, and then like there's also a framework, and and this is where you know between now and when I when I run the accelerator, um I'll be I'll be resolving this.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm I need to it's literally it's literally my top my top task list.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: I have here my my notes.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: What am I of what what I'm trying to accomplish this week?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's structure the accelerator.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: So um so it's all it's all coming together in real time.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is very much built in public right now.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that that I I felt like took me a really long time to grasp as a college teacher was for a long time I did more lectury kinds of things.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: I saw college for a long time and and when I had been teaching probably 12 or 13 years, I started to get really bored with my job, to be honest with you.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I also began to learn more about education.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I did was a flipped classroom where I actually taught less and less each year, and I had more student interaction each year.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I would do we would do case studies, we would have debates, we would do uh spee a lot more speeches in class, we would do field trips, we would do tons of different learning activities, discussions and all these group projects.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of students don't like those because they want to be a solo person.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: They don't like to work in groups, but that's part of life.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to work in groups.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: So my point in sharing that little trip down memory lane for my past is I think sometimes when we're putting together a book or a program, we really stress over the the framework of it.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: We stress about okay, I've got to have just the right you know, acrostic so it's really sounds cool or it sounds slick, or I've got to have the right pieces in there.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I and those are important, but I think sometimes we can stress out way too much about that stuff because the life change actually happens when we're in community with people and when it's applied.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean we both have tons, I've got books, I've got literally have a wall of books behind me full of knowledge, but unless that knowledge is applied, and unless I do something with it, it's completely useless.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think I can make an argument that if you have knowledge but you're not applying it, that actually it's actually bad.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not neutral, it's actually bad because it deceives you into thinking that you're you're you're smarter or more successful than you actually are.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you have all these, you know, like professional students in the academic world who just accumulate knowledge and they accumulate degrees, but it's like, but they can't get a job anywhere, you know, because they just like they don't have negotiation skills or people skills or things like that.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that just resonates so deeply with me because I know I'm I'm in uh traditionally have been and I've been working on this personally, but just an over-researcher.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like anytime I come to start start a new endeavor.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember when we we got a my wife and I early in our marriage got a decided to get a dog.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started I read like three different dog training books before we even got a dog, you know?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's really easy to trick yourself into feeling like you're successful just by learning more when really you need to actually put it into action, like just by intaking is intaking information and knowledge isn't the same as practicing and and flexing those muscles.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, totally, totally.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: So can you repeat though the four Ps that are a part of your framework?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the people.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: So the people that you're um you know working with, the working alongside, and so to thinking in terms of entrepreneurs, it could be your your your staff, could be your customers, also the the people involved in in the business.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: The the process, that's the day-to-day of actually doing the work.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, for anyone, anyone listening, like writers, right?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like hopefully you like writing or some aspect of writing.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's easy, the easiest to think about that in terms of of the arts and creative endeavors, like the actual doing of the work, but it applies to to you know all all work.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um the people, the the the the the product.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so when it comes to, you know, when it comes to business, it's it's the you could think of it in terms of the thing that the business is actually literally making, or you could think of it in terms of the problem that um the business is solving for their customers.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the profit.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: And profit isn't isn't just money.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's the easiest thing to point out and say that that's money, um, that that that's that's the profit, but it's the lifestyle, it's the benefits, it's you know, all of all of those, those things.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: And these apply, um, you know, it probably goes without saying, but it applies to all work, not just an entrepreneur's life, but also um, you know, a career, a good job.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you think through those those lenses, if you think about each one of those areas on a spectrum of of how um the felt sense of meaning and purpose and fulfillment from each of those areas of life that a business produces for the entrepreneur or the owner, or for you know, people are working a conventional, more conventional job, like work, you know, what use that as a lens for looking at your work, it gives you an opportunity to see where there might be gaps, where there might be areas where you can lean in and find more fulfillment.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: So the work at its best would feel very fulfilling in all of those, all of those categories.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and work at its worst would be devoid of meaning in all those categories.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: And in my work one-on-one and and you know, with the calling course around career, um we often find is that you only need one or two to be really high, and it feels like it can be a really great job.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: And by even giving yourself permission to say, like, this is great, this is a great job, even if it isn't making a product that you love, but the team that you're a part of is fantastic, and you get to do, you know, the process is great and it pays you well, even though you know you're, you know, I don't know, working for some tech company that you don't really believe in the tech that you're building, like that's still a good job, right?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I found like it can give people a lot of a lot of freedom um to be able to, I guess in some ways, Less the goodness that's coming from from the work that they're doing.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: But then also see, you know, if they have the freedom to make changes, what kind of changes they might want to make in order to improve.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I love the the four Ps.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: People, process, product, and profit.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that seems to pretty much cover the basis in terms of things that an entrepreneur or a business leader would need to be concerned about.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I love how you how you shared a bit about each of those.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's great.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you've you've kind of test driven, you know, those four Ps or that framework.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: So do you want me to share some different ways that you could structure a book like this?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: That would be super helpful.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would love that.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So let me let me go through a couple things that I that just come to mind off the top of my head as well.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think it's important to have in mind what you want the final product to look like before you start writing a book.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is thinking about how long you want the book to be, I think it's important to consider the physical size of the book.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because I always think in in terms of reader experience.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if like if you have a big six by nine paperback that's 300 pages, nobody's gonna read that unless it's really, really compelling.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: They might but I've actually changed what I used to think.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've I'm actually really emphasizing now that I think people should generally default to a shorter book instead of defaulting to a longer book.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now I know that with with nonfiction books, particularly business books, people people think the standard is to write like a 250 page book or a 200-page book or something.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think the standard should be like 140 pages, 150 pages max.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: With shorter chapters, because you can make things into the book that are gonna help their reader to get through it faster.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like if they open a book and they're and it every chapter is 30 pages or 20 pages, like they're just gonna lose enthusiasm.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to bake things into the actual structure of the book that help ensure the person's gonna read through it, they're gonna read through it fast, and and they're gonna really get something out of it.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there are different ways to structure a book.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I want to give you two or three sort of possibilities here.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: So one would be, and I I don't, by the way, I don't necessarily think this is the right structure for your book, but I'm gonna throw it out anyway.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, something I would just call a challenge book.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: For example, like a 21-day challenge or a 30-day challenge of some kind.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: Those are really popular types of short books.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they they're really great because they give a person a time frame to do the challenge in.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one thing with your book, if you like that kind of a book where it's like 30 days of going through this process, one way that you could break it up is to do an introductory day, then do a week on people, a week on process, a week on product, then a week on profit.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then you have a wrap-up day.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's 30 days total.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you have basically have four sections of a week each, and then you have an intro and an and a conclusion day.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's 30 days total.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's one way you could do it, or you wouldn't necessarily have to do seven days on each one.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: You could mix it up, you know, according to however you wanted.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that that's the right structure for this particular book, but I really do like those books in general.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a that it is a fun, uh it's a fun journey, and it it it um it's good to have constraints, you know.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh then the time constraint is a really really fun approach.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one way that you could do it.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, another way would be I guess I would just call this more of a straightforward type of nonfiction book approach, which is what most nonfiction books do.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: The way of so if I was your ghostwriter, so I'm always just kind of thinking like a like a writer, I guess.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: If I was ghostwriting this book, or if I was if I was writing it myself, I would probably break it up into something like 12 or 15 chapters.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would shoot for like 10, 40 pages, something like that.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I would break it up into 12 to 15 chapters.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: In your case, probably 12.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe 12 to 15, I don't know.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then I would have four sections, obviously one section for each of the P's, and then have two, maybe two, three, or four chapters in each of those sections.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because that would that would make really readable chapters.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: They would be shorter, and you would walk people through your process.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you would probably want to have like an introduction of some kind.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then go through, you know, the four parts of the book, then have some kind of uh takeaway section at the end, conclusion.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't actually like traditional conclusions because they're they don't always serve a function.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: I like to think of it as a next step section where you go through the book and then okay, what do we do next?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously you're gonna want to promote your accelerator program as the next step people could take with you.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or listening to the podcast or or whatever, whatever, whatever other steps they might want to take.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be a more yeah uh typical kind of structure.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now there's also a third option which you could do.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I learned this from my friend Honoree Corter, who is a she's a book marketing genius, she's written you know dozens and dozens of books.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I've talked with her about this actually at length.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: She has a different type of a formula that she uses.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember what she calls this, but I can just walk you through uh the sections of the book.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this takes a totally different approach to nonfiction.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really focused on application and getting people to take action, which I think might be actually a good structure for your book.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the the base the basic structure of this is eight chapters or so.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: So like chapter one would be encouraging the reader in the topic, letting them know they can create the results as they want, they can do it.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you're gonna want to include a lot of stories in the book of people who have uh applied what you're teaching and they've been successful.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh then chapter two could be telling specifically the stories of maybe two or three individuals who have put these into practice, sharing examples maybe from history.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: Chapter three would be an overview of the whole process from beginning to end.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is what your business or life looks like before, this is what it looks like after, and walking them through through your process.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then you could do a chapter four where you're sharing this formula in the form of an acronym.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you don't have an acronym, but you have the four P's, which is great.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people can force it with the acronyms and you know, cutesy names for a process and that kind of a thing.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was trained as a pastor, so I always think in terms of you know, the outline has to match and all the points of the outline have to be the same, or to the same, and all the things.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's usually what I say about the four Ps, because I was a pastor as well.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: So they all it has to alliterate, you know.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it is handy.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great, it's a great hook, it's a great memory tool.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I love it.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you you could actually blend chapters three and four together if you wanted to.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh chapter five, then would be showing the formula in action.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what it actually looks like in your life when you put this into practice.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: You could do a day in the life kind of a deal.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: That probably wouldn't work exactly for your process because it's obviously more than just one day.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: But you could just you could walk people through what it actually looks like when they put it into practice.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh chapter six could be other resources, other ideas, other tips that you have, uh, tools, apps, um memberships, uh, groups they can be a part of, you know, whatever other things might be helpful to kind of accelerate their success.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: Then chapter seven could be here's some more ideas about how to get the best results from this process.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe something like, you know, make sure to have the right attitude, make sure to surround yourself with the best people.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what other what other tips you might add in there that could really help them to accelerate accelerate their success with your process.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then chapter eight would be a straight-up call to action, encouraging them, they can do it, you can make it through the hard times.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe thinking thinking about the obstacles somebody's gonna face as they go through the journey and anticipating what those are and helping them to see that they can overcome those things too.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's a very different way of structuring a book, but I really like it because every chapter basically looks at the same thing except from a different angle.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: So in most nonfiction books, all the all the chapters or the sections are parallel to each other.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: This one is kind of like you're looking at a diamond and you're shifting it with every chapter and you're looking at the same thing.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one one chapter, here's the overview, one chapter, here's some tips.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: One chapter, here's some stories of people who were really successful with this.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of things.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: I actually really like that a lot.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a do you off the top of your head, do you do you have any books that um that use that framework?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there is an author.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got two actions.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there's an author named Holly Alexander that uses a similar formula.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: She has a series of books called Magic Money.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's all about creating abundance in your life.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: And they're little short books, and they follow a similar formula as this.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: And but I would say really the easiest way is to look at almost any book by Honor A Quarter.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Are you familiar with her?
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the way you spell her name is is honor, like H-O-N-O-R, E-E, and last name quarter, C-O-R-D-E-R.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: We actually just did a podcast interview on my show recently.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if you look back in my archives from October 2022, yeah, um, you'll see an interview with her where we we walk through some of the stuff on there.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really great.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: So she has a lot of books that follow this formula.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: As well.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I really like it because it's not, it's, it's just, it's just something different, and it really keeps you hooked and keeps you rolling through the material.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: So those are those are three potential ways to structure book.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: There are probably others.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if you had to pick right now, which one of these structural uh ways to structure book do you think might fit yours best?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I really like that last one, that that um on re quarter uh approach.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: It feels, I mean, it feels like that or the just the typical non-fiction-y.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I like about the on about Enre's approach is that it feels it just feels more manageable.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I haven't written, I mean, I've written I've a short couple short ebooks, you know, that would be like you know, they're like less than 50 pages.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: So like this feels this feels a little bit intimidating to I've been thinking about this as a big book, quote unquote.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever, whatever that actually means.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but like I've uh I read, you know, I read I read lots of lots of nonfiction and have you know from very in various lengths and feel like I don't know, I don't know if I can how to how to make how to fill the that that many pages in a way that's helpful all the way through and not just filler, you know?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so that feels like a really helpful, like it feels like each section, each movement is is focused and um yeah, it feels more attainable to me.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love short books.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we actually do our readers a favor whenever we write a short book.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: A book should not be any longer than it really has to be.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think of you know, when when I look at a short book and I pick it up, because I'm a print book guy still.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean I do read ebooks, but I really prefer print.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: When I pick up a book, if it's a thick book, I mean it's great if it's thicker and I read a lot of those, but if a book is thin and it's short, I'm like, yes, I'm so excited because I can buzz through this really fast.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, totally, totally.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like most books are too long, most nonfiction books are too long.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:39
  unknown: Yeah.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because we tend to we tend to over explain things, we give too much information, that kind of thing.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the shorter you can make it the better.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you can write them faster too.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love it.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if you were going to to go with this, with this formula, what do you feel like your next steps would be?
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: Would it be thinking through a writing plan, maybe, and and thinking about how you could um write a draft of the book in a certain amount of time?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a really good question.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think my next step would be to to to to finish my objective for the week, which was like to really structure structuring this program, then take that program and then apply it to this, and then like you, like you said, like probably put this all in a schedule, well calendar of like here's here's the here's the guiding principle, here's the the you know how many, you know, eight chapters, like that's that that feels doable.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: And totally um and like I don't know, probably tackle I I want to say even one a week.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: That might be a lot, but but if I just do like a if it's a really if I'm just trying to make a really a really ugly, you know, ugly baby here and just uh totally just just get get a rough draft done and then have it done.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it feels doable.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is super exciting.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like this feels like a breakthrough moment for me.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like like I've I've never been this close to having something that I can feel like I can actually write.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so like I feel have a lot of feelings about it.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like we're we've made really amazing progress already so far, can't so thank you.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean I feel like you sort of the the stuff that would go in this book, I feel like you already intuitively know.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like you have to go concoct a bunch of material dependent because you've you've been doing the meaning movement for years, you know your own business.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you have enough material to fill a whole series of books.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Around these totally agree.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: One way that you could approach drafting this book is now I'd have to go back and look at your your podcast to see how you structure your episodes.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing that you could do is start to draft some of this material to share on your podcast or your newsletter.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that way that actually does two things.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: One is that it it kind of forces you to create it because you have a regular podcast release schedule, but it also puts it out there and you get feedback on it.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that so that people can tell you I like this.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh probably nobody's gonna say I didn't I didn't like this.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if they don't like something, but you're gonna get some cool affirmation.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's even more motivation to keep going and keep sharing.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, also if you tell people that this is you're sharing some stuff from an upcoming book that gets them excited about it too.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a such a great idea and like so relevant for me.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're embarking on on the next season of the podcast, and my my podcast producer has been like kind of hounding me of like because we're in this, I've been in this this shift with like what the focus is gonna be, and like starting to have like you know, uh drip dripping it out into the different places and like the podcast and how how I'm gonna handle the next the next batch of content is is an open question.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have all these open slots, I'm like, I'm not sure what to do with these yet.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know what to do with them.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think you might have just solved my problem, though.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: That does feel it does feel intimidating, but also like just one at a time and it's manageable.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: So totally.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I do on my show.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just my podcast is basically my first drafts of stuff that goes somewhere else.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's great.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I've always thought of it.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I think of and I look at my pod, I don't know how you think of your podcast, but I don't I don't really try to be like super what am I trying to say?
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a perfectionist with my podcast.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just now part of it is because I do a daily show and like I just kind of have to get stuff out there.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I shoot for doing B level work on my show.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like if if I if I can internally feel like I made B level content for the podcast, that's everybody else's A because I'm kind of a perfectionist.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I just shoot for a B and then I'm like, I just gotta put it out there and see what the response is.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny because and I'm I'm sure you this has happened to you too, where you work really hard on something, you put it out there, and it's crickets.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but then you just kind of swap something on my content.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like, oh well, I put this out there, it wasn't that good, and then people love it.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm not even sure we can be objective about the quality of our own work half the time.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's completely true.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's again like one of those can't see the force for the trees thing.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's maybe like one or two pieces when I I wrote that was like that's really good.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they've resonated, but like like really it's just one that that that comes to mind.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but most of the time it's just like uh I don't even I don't know, it's okay.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then some people are like, that's amazing, you know?
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I would encourage you to put this stuff out there.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to see it for myself.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I know you've thought deeply about these just these issues, and getting to learn from you about this would I think that would be really fun.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would love it.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: But that means a lot.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: I feel I feel that a lot.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's again, I think I keep saying this force for the trees.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's like because I'm just in my head all the time, I just I think that everyone has the same thoughts that I have, you know, and that everyone sees the same things I see.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so just hearing your just even that that would be helpful for you, just really is uh really affirming and and helpful.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sure thing.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: I now I want to throw one other idea out there.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, something that I think can be really helpful for any nonfiction book is including interviews with people in the book.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously you've interviewed a ton of people for your show, which is a natural place to grab to grab some additional conversations for the book.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that can be helpful because including stories of people in a book can give people uh a picture of what their life could look like.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: But not everybody's gonna relate to every person.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I think it's important to have kind of a diverse array of people in a book.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how many people you interview and how long you're how much material you're gonna include in the book totally depends on what you like and and how how you frame the book and the chapters and all that.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also cool because when you launch the book, then those people are probably gonna help you promote it.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they're bought in.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: They could be people on your advanced reader team potentially.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:03:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's great for a whole bunch of reasons.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll probably do an endorsement as well.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, totally.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, especially the you know, people that have have businesses and have connections and networks too.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like um, totally good.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm excited about this book.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I am too.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is this is big.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a you know long page of notes here that you've given me.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like incredibly helpful, Kent.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when this is done, um, I will run this through transcript and I'll send you a transcript.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: It won't be perfect, but it'll be incredible.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be readable.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you have all the stuff there.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, especially as I'm focusing the podcast on on um business, you know, business owners, entrepreneurs.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's some of like what's happening with the content where the content has been very like career story based, um, most of the interviews.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's shifting a little bit because the value needs to then be more less about career stories and more about how business owners are navigating these spaces in their own businesses, or if there's specific um things that they can offer, you know, that that can be offered to business owners.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, I mean, one, I think an option would be to, you know, after you, you know, if this if this runs on your podcast, I could also you know feature it on on on my show and just say, here's a you know, had this great interview and um or and or um you know have you on the show to talk about you know how business owners can be thinking about using a book in their in their business to serve their business goals, which I think absolutely you've got tons tons to offer there.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um yeah, I think that would be a great both both are great would be great options.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we should totally totally.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love talking about this stuff.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm kind of a beat about it.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm super I'm I I can't I literally can't thank you enough.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is just I have so much more clarity than um awesome.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it's incredible, incredible progress.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm a little bit staggered, so um really, really excited.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome, awesome, well thanks for being kind of a guinea pig and being in the hot seat for this call.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: I love it, I love it.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I guess well, one one thing we didn't record.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: I could maybe ask if we could do it now, would be like, should we do a call to a call to action that we could drop in at the end if people you know want to connect with connect with my work, you know, jump over jump on over to the podcast.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: I guess you could just do that in the the intro or whatever.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but go ahead and include it here.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: I always include it at the end of um kind of want to do a wrap up, but go ahead and include it here because it's gonna mean a lot more coming from here.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: For anyone listening that wants to uh follow along with with my journey with this book and see what what what uh what I do with all the amazing wisdom that that Kent has um offered here, uh just feel free to, I'd love to have you um follow my podcast, The Meaning Movement.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: Wherever you're listening to this, you can find that.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: Just search for Dan Cumberland or or The Meaning Movement.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're a business owner and you're interested in the work that I'm doing around helping business owners with these these things, just go to themeingmovement.com.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you'll find uh an invitation there to take the assessment that's uh at this moment to be yet to be named, but um at some point in the future, when you're listening to this, it should it should be live.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: So uh would love to have you uh jump on over there and hopefully um get some guidance in in answering these questions in your own life.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, Dan.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate being on the show today.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks for letting me pummel you with questions.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so good, so good.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Kent.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: We'll uh we'll be in touch and looking forward to collaborating more in the future.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope you enjoyed that coaching session.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is a little different for the Daily Rider podcast.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually the first time I've ever included a live book coaching call on the show.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope you enjoyed this and I hope that you are taking away some ideas for your own projects as well.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: Many, many thanks to Dan for being a guinea pig of sorts and for being willing to uh to do this coaching session and let me post it here on the podcast.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: As you can hear, Dan is really empathetic.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a huge heart, he's got some great ideas for his book, and he's been impacting lives for a really long time.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, it was a huge honor to get to work through some book ideas with him.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure and check out Dan's podcast and his website and his blog at themeingmovement.com.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I hope this gives you some insight into your own book planning process.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if you enjoyed this kind of coaching and masterminding together, you might enjoy our brand new Daily Writer Elite mastermind that is launching in December.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: This mastermind is an exclusive small group of people who are working on building their writing-based business.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_00: We meet twice a month for calls to work on our business strategy, our goals, and our streams of income.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is a high-level mastermind, really only for people who are serious about growing their writing-based business.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you think this might be interesting, and if you really want to accelerate your success as a writer in 2023, check it out at dailywriterlife.com slash mastermind.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: Today's episode is sponsored by Indie Author University, featuring the book marketing mastery course.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you're tired of being disappointed by your book sales and you want to sell more books faster, easier, and with more fun than ever, sign up today.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_00: Book Marketing Mastery is created by my friend and business coach, Anna Ray Corter, who has sold over four million books.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_00: So needless to say, she definitely knows her stuff when it comes to marketing.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: This brand new course is fantastic, and I've taken it myself and have started to apply what I'm learning.
• 1:08:44
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• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, and I'll see you tomorrow.