Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / The Book of Clarence with Costume Designer, Antoinette Messam

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The Book of Clarence with Costume Designer, Antoinette Messam · The Art of Costume Podcast

• 0:11
  My hands were like this, Oh my gosh, I'm going to take out the
• 0:16
  actor before the scene and I'm getting James texting me.
• 0:21
  Just put him in something else and I'm like, he said no, yeah.
• 0:28
  You come here and tell him. Hello and welcome to the Art of
• 0:44
  Costume podcast. I'm Elizabeth Joy Glass.
• 0:46
  And I'm Spencer Williams. Hello, Elizabeth.
• 0:50
  Hey, Spencer, How's it going? It's going.
• 0:54
  It is. The sun is shining, the
• 0:57
  allergies are flowing. It sets over to you again.
• 1:02
  I just like, I love that the sun's out.
• 1:05
  I love that the sun's out. I like it's brings me like so
• 1:09
  much joy and energy. But then, like, I step outside
• 1:13
  my house and I'm like, no, not the pollen.
• 1:19
  Not again. It's dangerous out here.
• 1:22
  We just had in in California or Los Angeles, we have these
• 1:25
  things called the Santa Ana winds.
• 1:28
  I don't know. I don't understand.
• 1:29
  Yeah, I remember. Those I don't understand the
• 1:32
  science, so don't ask me. But occasionally this, like,
• 1:35
  really horrible windstorm comes through, and we just had it two
• 1:39
  days ago. It literally blew the roof off
• 1:42
  of my garage. That's how intense it was.
• 1:44
  And I didn't know roofs could come off in just one piece like
• 1:48
  that. Yeah, it did.
• 1:50
  Have you never seen like, video of a tornado?
• 1:54
  But I mean, I saw a twister before.
• 1:56
  I mean but. Well, I hope.
• 2:02
  I hope your roof is returned soon.
• 2:05
  Yeah, it'll work itself out, but you know, taking off the allergy
• 2:09
  meds, staying home, you know it's just it's dangerous
• 2:13
  outside. For us people with allergies,
• 2:15
  this is the the dangerous time. But I also finished school this
• 2:22
  week. I'm officially done with that
• 2:25
  degree I was working on. Yeah, congratulations.
• 2:29
  How does it feel to have your your bachelor's to join the
• 2:32
  club? Feels good.
• 2:34
  It's more like I think the best part so far.
• 2:37
  I finally kicked in this morning when I got to sit in my bed and
• 2:40
  I got to just play Dream Light Valley and not feel guilty about
• 2:43
  it. You know, like Donald Duck's
• 2:45
  giving me like, missions to do, like, go pick up this fish and
• 2:49
  go do that. And I finally was like, oh, I
• 2:51
  could actually do this and not feel guilty about the three
• 2:54
  essays I need, right? Doesn't it?
• 2:57
  Doesn't it feel? Nice.
• 2:58
  Yeah, it feels nice. Got a lot done.
• 3:00
  So yeah, I'm really, I'm really stoked about.
• 3:02
  I'm excited and I'm thankful to you and Daniel for sticking by
• 3:07
  me with my chaotic deadlines as I try to figure how to be a full
• 3:11
  time student while running the podcast and the blog at the same
• 3:15
  time. So I'm stoked I'm free.
• 3:18
  You're free. What about you?
• 3:21
  How's the How's the Music Hall going?
• 3:24
  Oh, it's it's going. It's just kind of like last week
• 3:30
  I kind of really sat down and I was like, OK, I need to do like
• 3:32
  XYZ. And I'm like, oh, and once you
• 3:35
  realize you need to do XYZ, you're also like, oh, I need to
• 3:38
  do this and this and this so that I can do XYZ And then I
• 3:43
  have to do these other five things.
• 3:45
  And I was like, it's gonna be fine.
• 3:47
  It's gonna be great. You're telling me behind the
• 3:49
  scenes that you're sewing corsets right now?
• 3:51
  Yeah, I'm selling corsets right now, man, 'cause I picked out
• 3:55
  we're doing like a 18th century, like kind of like rococo theme
• 3:59
  for Cinderella. And I was like, OK, here are the
• 4:03
  dresses I want da, da, da, like figuring out what I need for
• 4:07
  those. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I
• 4:09
  need to, I need to get corsets and then course, it's our
• 4:12
  expensive. And I'm working in a budget.
• 4:14
  So I'm like, well, I guess I'll just have to make them 'cause
• 4:17
  that's significantly cheaper. So it's it's going well, it's
• 4:21
  going great. Sounds awesome.
• 4:24
  Glad everything's working out. Me too.
• 4:26
  Oh my gosh. It's good to see you well, We
• 4:33
  have a great episode. We have a lot of a lot to get
• 4:36
  to. So what do we watch this week?
• 4:38
  So excited, this week we watched the book of Clarence.
• 4:42
  Yeah, I'm excited. It was.
• 4:44
  It was a great movie. I I think I said in our last
• 4:47
  episode, I didn't know what to expect.
• 4:50
  Typically, like anything that I feel like has any sort of like
• 4:53
  religious undertones, I'm usually not like super thrilled
• 4:57
  about it. And I feel like this film just
• 5:01
  like, really was such a pleasant surprise because it really
• 5:04
  wasn't just that. It really had a lot of different
• 5:07
  themes, a lot of great fun, color, costumes, an incredible
• 5:13
  cast. The music is amazing.
• 5:15
  I loved everything about it, honestly.
• 5:18
  I did too. I did too.
• 5:19
  I was. I was very interested to see,
• 5:22
  'cause I was like, OK, they're clearly, like, working around
• 5:25
  like Jesus's story as well. Like, I was really interested to
• 5:29
  see what they were gonna like, do with this.
• 5:32
  And it was just, it was so pleasant and so, like, it was
• 5:36
  like a fresh take on. So, like, so many Bible stories
• 5:42
  that have been played out again and again, you're like, oh, I
• 5:44
  like this. Right.
• 5:46
  Also it's done in like a pre contemporary, contemporary way
• 5:49
  where even someone like me was able to understand it.
• 5:52
  Honestly, I was like, Oh well, if we would have explained to me
• 5:56
  like this, I would have got it more.
• 6:00
  Like I get it now. Yeah, such a good film.
• 6:05
  But before we get into it, perhaps I'll give us a little
• 6:08
  summary. Yes, give us a summary Spencer
• 6:12
  all. Right, and I'm reading it for
• 6:14
  the first time too. So the book of Clarence, a down
• 6:18
  on his luck man struggles to find a better life for his
• 6:21
  family while fighting the free himself of debt.
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  Captivated by the power and glory of the rising Messiah, he
• 6:28
  risked everything to carve his own path to a divine life,
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  ultimately discovering that the redemptive power of belief may
• 6:35
  be his only way out. And that is the book of
• 6:38
  Clarence. That is the book of Clarence.
• 6:41
  If you haven't seen it, go watch it.
• 6:43
  It's a great. It's a great movie.
• 6:45
  Where did you say you streamed it?
• 6:48
  Amazon, you do still have to buy it.
• 6:52
  It's it's not free to stream anywhere, but it's worth it.
• 6:55
  It's very much worth it. And I admit I intended to see
• 6:58
  this in theaters, 'cause I was really excited when I saw the
• 7:01
  trailer and it it was in and out of the theaters before I could
• 7:05
  like get my head around, like going outside to go see it.
• 7:10
  Yeah, outside bad sounds good. So.
• 7:12
  Yeah, it was the middle of the winter.
• 7:15
  Outside was bad. So yeah, definitely worth.
• 7:20
  It's worth it to to see this movie.
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  I am so excited to go behind the costumes we have director and
• 7:28
  writer James Samuel and costume designer Antoinette Messam.
• 7:33
  You will know her work from Orphan Creed Colossal, Hold the
• 7:39
  Dark, The Harder They Fall, Secret Headquarters and right
• 7:45
  now on Netflix Lift. Yeah, it's that's a good one.
• 7:49
  I just watched that the other day, right before we prepared
• 7:52
  for this episode of Kevin Hart. It's it's quite funny.
• 7:56
  I love the harder They Fall. That's such a great movie.
• 8:01
  And I mean, I don't know if we've ever talked about it, but
• 8:03
  I love Orphan. That's one of my favorite horror
• 8:06
  movies. That is so creepy.
• 8:07
  Have you never seen Orphan? No, I haven't.
• 8:11
  That's so spooky. I didn't start watching scary
• 8:15
  movies till I was in college, so most of the ones I've seen I saw
• 8:18
  with y'all. My bad.
• 8:20
  Oh man. Well Spencer, I am very, very
• 8:28
  excited to hear your interview with Antoinette.
• 8:32
  I'm so excited. Yeah, I'm so excited to say that
• 8:35
  Antoinette Messam came by to talk about her work on the book
• 8:39
  of Clarence and it was such a great conversation.
• 8:42
  I've known Antoinette for a little while now, but this was
• 8:45
  our first time really getting to sit down and actually talk about
• 8:48
  her work and her career, 'cause we usually run into each other
• 8:51
  at parties. So this is our first time
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  actually like sitting down and getting to know each other and
• 8:57
  talk about her work. So yeah, I'm very excited for
• 8:59
  you all to listen. We really get into great detail
• 9:03
  about the book of Clarence. We also did talk about her
• 9:06
  recent film on Netflix, Lyft that will be published on Art of
• 9:11
  Costume website. So you can all go and read that
• 9:13
  part of the interview as well just for the sake of time.
• 9:17
  So enjoy the interview, and after the interview, come back
• 9:21
  so Elizabeth and I can play our favorite game.
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  Yes, the. I am so excited to introduce my
• 9:52
  friend, costume designer Antoinette Mezam.
• 9:55
  Hey. How are you?
• 9:57
  Hey, I'm OK. You're busy, booked and busy.
• 10:03
  Yeah, a little. Just a little, as we were just
• 10:06
  saying. A lot of movies in my head right
• 10:09
  now, but. As I said behind the scenes, I'm
• 10:12
  excited to have this time with you because I feel like we're
• 10:14
  always in similar spaces, but I never really get to, you know,
• 10:18
  get to know you as the designer. So you've had such a successful
• 10:22
  career, not just in costume but also in fashion.
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  So I just want to know a little bit more about like your
• 10:26
  background, because I hear about this fashion background of
• 10:30
  Antoinette, like I want to hear about that too.
• 10:34
  I know. It's so interesting that you
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  mentioned that I was speaking to a commercial production house in
• 10:41
  Toronto who was, you know, reached out to congratulate me
• 10:44
  on Lift 'cause they just saw it and they loved it.
• 10:48
  And I'm like, you guys stopped booking me and like, oh, you
• 10:51
  still do commercials and music videos?
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  Hell yeah. You know, because I I have to
• 10:58
  give props to. That's that part of my life.
• 11:02
  It really, I think, helped me set the base for where I am now.
• 11:09
  I I mean, a lot of people really separate the stylist from the
• 11:17
  costume designer, but there's many, many layers of styling and
• 11:21
  different lanes you could be in styling.
• 11:23
  And I love the one I was in. I mean, I started.
• 11:27
  I've always loved clothes, period.
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  You know, I grew up in it. Whether I wanted to be in it or
• 11:33
  not. It was in my life, my between my
• 11:35
  mother and my grandfather, there was fabrics and clothes.
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  And my mother's a beautiful custom.
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  She makes beautiful clothes still to safe.
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  We allow her to sew. But I and I modeled as a kid.
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  But what I loved was what the people who were I was working
• 11:56
  for was doing, you know? And I remember working for
• 12:04
  someone who I work with now and have worked with for many years.
• 12:08
  Izzy Camilleri. I was young.
• 12:09
  I was still modelling and I assisted a a designer now
• 12:15
  Deborah Ferguson when she's still in Toronto on a fashion
• 12:20
  show and I just Deborah was so creative.
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  She used to get the coolest gigs back then and I just loved how
• 12:27
  she was styling the clothes, dressing the models as before
• 12:31
  they went out to the runway. I'm like, I want to do that.
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  And of course, it went from doing some of that to then
• 12:41
  helping at a production company that, God bless them, they gave
• 12:45
  me. The biggest start was Revolver
• 12:48
  Films that did a lot of big music videos back in the early,
• 12:52
  late 80s, early 90s. I mean, I did Florida's Biggest
• 12:57
  Monday. I'm probably pronouncing her
• 12:59
  name. Wrong her.
• 13:01
  It's pretty good so. Yeah, her first music video in
• 13:05
  Toronto and it Blue Rodeo, which is a Canadian band that
• 13:09
  Canadians know. But back then, that was a that
• 13:13
  was my first job and it was just by fluke that I got it.
• 13:17
  But even then Florida's style was very goth, very creative,
• 13:23
  very. You know, you've seen what she's
• 13:25
  done with Christina Aguilera and it's it's another it's
• 13:30
  otherworldly, so bring that down a little smaller.
• 13:34
  And I was dressing a child in ratty clothes.
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  But it was a Canadian fashion piece, you know what I mean?
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  But I was. Breaking it down on set.
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  And I just loved it. And I think if you're asking me,
• 13:48
  you know, the early days there was fashion involved, but I
• 13:52
  also, what I loved about it was creating things within fashion,
• 13:58
  you know, I'll never forget this.
• 14:01
  I was doing a shoot with one of my model friends, 'cause I was
• 14:05
  lucky to have friends who I could call in to do creative
• 14:07
  stuff. And of dear friends.
• 14:09
  Charmaine was in town from Paris and Charmaine was working with
• 14:14
  Patrick Kelly and Asadina Laia, but she was my friend so she did
• 14:21
  this for me. And the make up artist is like,
• 14:25
  we have Charmaine Bernard and you're putting her in doilies.
• 14:30
  I literally tapped with a, you know, thread doilies, placing
• 14:34
  them on her body and it was black and white and all you saw
• 14:37
  is her Ebony skin and the doilies, the Lacy doilies.
• 14:41
  And he's like bitch, I was expecting Gucci.
• 14:46
  I've never forgotten that. And I felt so bad at the time
• 14:50
  that I wasted this incredible makeup artist's time because I
• 14:54
  recognize the business. It would have sold for us both
• 14:57
  better if she was in high end fashion, but that's not what
• 15:03
  interested me. I just loved her tone, her
• 15:06
  color, her face, and I just wanted to put her in do
• 15:09
  something texture, you know? Yeah, and it's all about like
• 15:13
  the trajectory, though. Like, we all go through these
• 15:15
  stories in life to end up getting us to where we're
• 15:17
  supposed to be now too. So, I mean, you know, it's a
• 15:21
  part of the creative process that made you the costume
• 15:24
  designer you are today too. So with that, I'm so with that,
• 15:31
  we have a ton of costumes to talk about.
• 15:34
  So let's start with the book of Clarence.
• 15:36
  And you know, I, you and I already talked about it, but I
• 15:40
  just have to give you your flowers again.
• 15:42
  I thought this was such a brilliant film, the colors, the
• 15:45
  music, the sets and of course the costumes.
• 15:48
  So to begin, what drew you to the book of Clarence?
• 15:52
  James Samuel. And he didn't even.
• 15:58
  It wasn't even draw me. It was like, Are you ready?
• 16:00
  We're going. Let's go.
• 16:03
  I. Kind of had a feeling.
• 16:05
  So I mean, to my next question then you worked with James
• 16:07
  Samuel on The Harder They Fall as well.
• 16:09
  So tell me a little bit about the collaboration between you
• 16:12
  two, 'cause it sounds very intimate, actually.
• 16:15
  You know, when I first met James, it was he was in London
• 16:22
  and it was via Zoom. So we didn't get to meet in
• 16:24
  person. And I was just honored to even
• 16:28
  have the opportunity to interview for this film, 'cause
• 16:31
  I heard some of the names that had gone before.
• 16:33
  And I'm like, wow, OK, I'll take that meeting.
• 16:37
  Yes. And you know it.
• 16:39
  I read the script and it was obviously period.
• 16:44
  So you instinctively think you're going to go down the lane
• 16:48
  of just doing peered reference research, which I did, But then
• 16:53
  also looked at who was making this movie and I did my research
• 16:56
  on them. And James did some of his own
• 17:00
  creative things, videos and a short film.
• 17:04
  And even though some of it was period and character driven,
• 17:07
  they were all very fashion forward and very he loves
• 17:11
  clothes. OK, One of our first in person
• 17:15
  meetings in London, in Toronto, in no where were we LA was
• 17:19
  walking along Melrose and looking at clothes and going to
• 17:23
  Fred Siegel and shopping for him together.
• 17:25
  He was, he just popping and shopping.
• 17:27
  We were going for a coffee and we ended up shopping in Fred's.
• 17:30
  He. Ended up working on this coffee.
• 17:32
  Yeah, I'm getting to know each other.
• 17:35
  And I realized, so when I did you know, for that interview, I
• 17:40
  just to test the waters, I dropped in a few fashion images
• 17:45
  and then he came back and he wanted more.
• 17:48
  So what I found is he gravitated to references that were
• 17:53
  inspiration as compared to literal.
• 17:57
  And he wasn't making a literal movie.
• 17:58
  His exact words was I'm not making no Dusty Dirty Cowboy
• 18:02
  movie, Antoinette. He is, his background is
• 18:05
  Nigerian, growing up in London amongst Jamaicans and other
• 18:11
  Caribbean islands. So as soon as he said that and I
• 18:14
  responded to him in by Jamaican dialect, he's like you're a
• 18:20
  Yardie, Oh my God. Then the whole tone of the
• 18:24
  conversation changed and we bonded on music.
• 18:28
  He started playing me songs and music that he was going to have
• 18:31
  in the film that were music that I grew up on, you know?
• 18:36
  And so that was amazing that we connected first with music and
• 18:42
  then with fashion and how then are we going to incorporate this
• 18:48
  into the movie? And color is so important to
• 18:50
  James. We used to have butt heads.
• 18:53
  And when I say that, it's like Antoinette, where's the color?
• 18:57
  And I'm like, it's coming, James, because in a fitting,
• 19:03
  he's just seeing someone look dark with maybe a pop of color
• 19:07
  but not enough color. He wanted color.
• 19:10
  That was scripted that Idris was going to be in the red jacket,
• 19:15
  but that's a whole other story in the red jacket.
• 19:18
  So I didn't have a choice in putting Idris in the red jacket.
• 19:22
  And then obviously his favorite color is blue, so let's put
• 19:27
  Virginia in blue. But color was his life.
• 19:30
  He loved color and color and music, but wasn't until the Cass
• 19:35
  got on the set and he saw how the colors worked with the set.
• 19:40
  Then he got it right it. Works with everything.
• 19:43
  Yeah. So I think, I mean, it was tough
• 19:47
  when we went because of COVID. So even though we started with
• 19:50
  James coming over to my shop at Western and hanging out and
• 19:55
  calling the actors and showing them the illustrations and some
• 19:58
  of the clothes, that was amazing.
• 20:01
  And then COVID happened. And then I he was like this from
• 20:05
  me. So other than text and video, I
• 20:08
  barely got to see him. But I got it.
• 20:12
  I got and got his style and that was the hardest line.
• 20:17
  Just walking that walk of the bass silhouette and how much the
• 20:24
  studio wanted fashion they had setting up their store and how
• 20:28
  much. I know James and Jay-Z were
• 20:32
  interested in having fashion influences but still not making
• 20:36
  it jarring for me as a costume designer.
• 20:40
  That was my biggest challenge, and I felt there's places I felt
• 20:44
  I hit it on the nose and it worked.
• 20:46
  And then there's other places where I still cringe when I see
• 20:49
  it. I mean, that's normal.
• 20:52
  I hear that all the time. Yeah, but but that just to
• 20:56
  answer your question, we bonded there and then he dropped me
• 21:01
  into Italy and left me to my it's like make it happen.
• 21:07
  Right. Well, so the book of Clarence
• 21:10
  tells stories through the eyes of people of color in a biblical
• 21:13
  setting. So what sources of inspiration
• 21:16
  did he draw from to reimagine and create these costumes for
• 21:21
  familiar figures? But it really is your all own
• 21:24
  take on these figures that you know people are familiar with.
• 21:29
  I wish I could tell you there was a plan and there was a time.
• 21:32
  Sometimes, no plan's the best plan.
• 21:34
  Well, that's what happened and I just, I'm just, I say thank you
• 21:38
  every day that it all fell into place and worked.
• 21:42
  When I got the call, I was in Jamaican.
• 21:44
  We were 12 weeks out and I still had to get back to first Toronto
• 21:49
  to drop off my parents. It's like we're going home,
• 21:52
  let's go home backwards. But also to get back to LA, meet
• 21:59
  with James, find out what it what is it we're doing?
• 22:02
  You know, we the trigger was pulled very quickly on this film
• 22:06
  because of Benedict's availability.
• 22:11
  So when I got to Italy, we're like 8 weeks out.
• 22:15
  Oh my. Gosh, not going to lie.
• 22:16
  I was panicking and you know, crewing setting up.
• 22:21
  We prepped in Rome. And so in terms of finding that
• 22:27
  research, I mean, I spend a couple of hours with James just
• 22:31
  to get an idea of what are we making.
• 22:34
  You know, I read the script, but knowing who I'm working with,
• 22:37
  what music are you doing, guy? Let's talk about the mood.
• 22:41
  Yeah, it's not as easy as reading the script.
• 22:43
  No part of the fall. He literally had meet the songs
• 22:48
  written into the script lines. So you knew the lead up to to
• 22:53
  what he was thinking. And that's why we bonded because
• 22:56
  all those songs were early Jamaican reggae songs by Jimmy
• 23:02
  Cliff. And, you know, people like you.
• 23:04
  But there were none of those linear notes in the new script.
• 23:07
  So I I needed a tone. What was the tone?
• 23:11
  And then we're going to Matira, which is so beautiful.
• 23:17
  So what was important to me is we're making a black film and
• 23:21
  when I say black film, the characters in the film that are
• 23:24
  driving this story are black in 33 AD.
• 23:30
  How did they get there? My first sort of reason is just
• 23:35
  trying to find out the facts, the the, the, you know what,
• 23:41
  what was truth, what was what, what I what would I have to
• 23:44
  reimagine? What would I have to create out
• 23:50
  of? Well, there's nothing that say
• 23:51
  didn't exist, but the fact is it did exist.
• 23:55
  We did find research, especially in in tombs, historical tombs.
• 24:02
  I even saw that in the museums in Italy and took beautiful
• 24:05
  references once I got there. But before that deep dive in and
• 24:10
  seeing that there were African Jews who were in Israel and
• 24:17
  Jerusalem, there were Arab and Arabs who came through from the
• 24:25
  North Coast along the the trade routes.
• 24:28
  So there's there's there was a migration to that part of the
• 24:32
  world that was not just who we see that is documented that
• 24:37
  there's enough. There's enough scholars who have
• 24:39
  done the research and I've got to give a shout out to Western
• 24:43
  costume research for as I'm literally packing and packing.
• 24:48
  My kid is doing helping me with research running.
• 24:51
  I had one day to get over there and spent the day looking at you
• 24:58
  know Michael Douglas's costume and Spartacus and the actual
• 25:03
  touching it, you know. And then they had already
• 25:07
  started to pull books and and reference for me for me to weed
• 25:10
  through and they were the two of them were actually helping me as
• 25:15
  I'm doing. Like it was tag teaming because
• 25:18
  I literally had the date hit it on a plane the next day.
• 25:22
  But I have to say, thank you Costume research.
• 25:25
  Who I. Shout out.
• 25:27
  Yeah, shout out that people realize the amazing resource we
• 25:31
  have at Western Costumes in their research.
• 25:34
  Wow. I mean that that's it's such a,
• 25:36
  like you said, it's a long time ago and but there's still so
• 25:40
  much research out there. If you're able to look for it
• 25:42
  and really inspired the story, which you know it's, it came out
• 25:46
  quite beautifully. And as we mentioned earlier,
• 25:50
  James Samuel's a big fan of color and I feel like color
• 25:53
  played a huge role in the book of Clarence.
• 25:56
  So how did you use colors to define the character's style
• 26:00
  while also communicating their status in society, I felt.
• 26:05
  Wow. You know, that was hard.
• 26:10
  Harder than the hard than the harder they fall.
• 26:15
  It was hard because until I got to Materia, we prepped in Rome,
• 26:22
  which all those incredible rental houses are to rally
• 26:25
  Ferrani, Peruzzi and shout out to Paris, who shipped stuff in
• 26:32
  for us. I didn't really.
• 26:37
  It didn't really click. I mean, obviously I landed in
• 26:40
  Rome. The first thing I did is just
• 26:42
  knowing the amount of background.
• 26:44
  I started pulling what was available to me.
• 26:47
  And I'm literally on the phone with James saying, look,
• 26:51
  scanning, this is a tone. These are And he's like OK, but
• 26:55
  what about what about the light colors The beige is the brown
• 26:59
  you know because he he loved Jesus of Nazareth and that sort
• 27:02
  of neutral vibe which is very different from the color he way
• 27:07
  he usually goes to. So that would kind of threw me
• 27:10
  off and I'm like I thought this man wanted color.
• 27:17
  Wait a second. I got to I got to Matera I went
• 27:21
  to meet with him 'cause we were prepping in Rome but they were
• 27:25
  in Matera which is like 4 hours drive away a little further
• 27:29
  north and or an hour flight. So I went in to meet him and
• 27:33
  spent the weekend and I landed on Plymouth.
• 27:37
  It's like, oh, walking around and seeing the sand tones, the
• 27:45
  the natural, then the blue sky. It was a contrast of just
• 27:51
  everything being so organically neutral, like the word tan and
• 27:58
  beiges and creams. And I'm like, I How do I make it
• 28:03
  that these people don't jar? They're not jarring.
• 28:06
  There's not the contrast is so harsh.
• 28:11
  But I still have color, you know.
• 28:13
  And one of the things we had decided early on when we I first
• 28:17
  met with him in LA is Italians are known for making beautiful
• 28:21
  biblical movies, you know, And there is a lot of them that have
• 28:27
  a lot of what I call haberdashery, you know, a lot of
• 28:33
  bells and whistles, a lot of trim, lot of beading layers,
• 28:38
  colors, beautiful fabrics. But the script was so gritty,
• 28:44
  you know it was. So these guys are down on their
• 28:47
  luck, they're hustlers. If they were now and living in
• 28:51
  an urban area, it'd be a little swag, a little, you know, it
• 28:55
  would be in high fashion. They wouldn't have a lot of
• 28:59
  things. But cause also I had to show the
• 29:02
  progression. So being in Matera, it started
• 29:06
  to click of how I can use that. That was my background, that was
• 29:11
  my location. All the casts were up against
• 29:15
  these neutral tones. So having it be complimentary
• 29:19
  and then the pops of color and also too I mean the beggar, that
• 29:26
  was the first big challenge. How do I have this beggar read?
• 29:32
  And I just felt it was important to have him almost that he could
• 29:36
  blend into the walls, into the ground, into the scenery and not
• 29:42
  be seen because he doesn't anyone to see him.
• 29:45
  Yeah, wow. So with that, I was struck by
• 29:49
  the breakdown of these costumes, as well as, as we mentioned, the
• 29:53
  fabrics and the textures, which really brought a feeling of
• 29:55
  authenticity to it. Like you just mentioned with the
• 29:58
  beggar just he was able to blend in with the crowd.
• 30:02
  So tell me a little bit more about just your use of fabrics,
• 30:05
  textiles and maybe the breakdown process.
• 30:09
  Breakdown is my life. It's my favorite.
• 30:11
  I could talk about forever. Yeah, any area.
• 30:15
  I'm not a strong sewer and I'm considering who my family is.
• 30:20
  I just didn't have the patience. I love playing in the age of
• 30:25
  dire shop, you know, and showing and showing by doing what I'm
• 30:31
  looking for, the under understanding how to to speak
• 30:35
  their language I think is important, right?
• 30:38
  I almost, believe it or not, had a hard time finding the fabrics
• 30:43
  I was looking for immediately. In Italy it took a minute, and
• 30:49
  it took a minute for the love language of fabric, love
• 30:53
  language to to everybody to be on the same page.
• 30:56
  But I needed organic bat textiles that were dyable
• 31:00
  because I have to dye the tones I needed especially for the lead
• 31:05
  actors. And we built all the lead actors
• 31:08
  clothes. All the most of the the cast
• 31:13
  principal clothes were made in house.
• 31:16
  I had some of the most incredible cutters and stitchers
• 31:19
  like it was a procession. It's like Muslim fitting.
• 31:23
  Continue costume to aging. Back to the Stitchers.
• 31:27
  You know it. Was a factory lineup.
• 31:30
  It was a factory lineup shout out to my Italian crew.
• 31:34
  Amazing craftspeople. Amazing patience with
• 31:38
  Antoinette, with our family. By the by the end we were all in
• 31:45
  it together and it I'm I'm so blessed to have had them.
• 31:48
  But it was a procession and I I just gave him a shout out on
• 31:53
  Instagram. Augusto, who was my head aged
• 31:58
  Dyer, used to work for Ferrani and he used textiles for
• 32:03
  Ferrani. I didn't know that when I hired
• 32:06
  him. Didn't find that out until I
• 32:09
  brought some samples of textiles that I loved the dyes and the
• 32:14
  layering of dyeing. And you know how they
• 32:17
  incorporated natural, organic materials into it?
• 32:20
  Like straw, like leaves, You know, stuff like that.
• 32:24
  And he's like, I made it. OK.
• 32:31
  All right. So that was that was a check.
• 32:36
  For me. And yeah, so there was, it was
• 32:39
  just really great having not only their expertise, I mean
• 32:45
  they've all done biblical over and over again.
• 32:47
  So having their expertise to show me different ways we could
• 32:52
  do things or cheat things And our biggest challenge aside from
• 32:59
  having the look be somewhat true to the period is organic.
• 33:06
  If that makes sense. Because as you say each it's
• 33:11
  almost like the the harder they fall.
• 33:13
  I had different cities within this movie, different areas that
• 33:18
  show different class structure. And one of the things that I
• 33:21
  needed to introduce because we had Romans, but we only had
• 33:26
  Romans really in uniform except for when we came to that trial,
• 33:31
  right. And I needed to make how do I
• 33:36
  influence the wealthy in this town so that they don't all look
• 33:41
  the same. So I had to bring elements of
• 33:44
  Rome. So you saw a little bit of it
• 33:47
  when Rome attire which would have been Greek influence to
• 33:55
  that was the elite. That was a class structure.
• 33:57
  So bringing some of that into, say, Jedediah's harem, if you
• 34:02
  want to call it his football, his club, really.
• 34:06
  Club. And a men's club and seeing
• 34:12
  elements so that I could show the diverse class structures.
• 34:17
  You know, you see the cast, Clarence and Elijah walking in
• 34:23
  and they obviously look very different than the people who
• 34:26
  are in that setting. Yeah, and that's the same with
• 34:30
  with the beggar. Who was the beggar before he
• 34:34
  became destitute? Maybe he was Roman and fell on
• 34:38
  hard times. I had to figure something out.
• 34:41
  How do I What kind of costume am I going to give this guy that
• 34:44
  differentiates him a little bit from the others, you know?
• 34:49
  Well, you really had to think of a lot of different cultures and
• 34:53
  aspirations, and that's a lot. As I was running, it was crazy
• 34:58
  and that's why I I I keep saying it over and over again.
• 35:01
  The every job is a learning experience and as I'm we're
• 35:07
  literally figuring this out as we're going.
• 35:10
  And my Italian. My first Italian cutter.
• 35:13
  I started one and then the second one joined me.
• 35:16
  Couldn't speak a word of English to me, so we had an interpreter
• 35:20
  with my junior design assistant. Best position in the world with
• 35:25
  us. Jessica and she would help, but
• 35:27
  what we had in common is what we were doing.
• 35:31
  She allowed me to drape on the fabric.
• 35:34
  I want to say allow, meaning just seeing where I was going
• 35:38
  because I needed to drape the fabric to show her so that we
• 35:42
  could workshop it, you know, so the two of us, I have a picture
• 35:46
  of the two of us on this, the ground wrapping and figuring the
• 35:50
  fabric out and which one and yeah, so it it it was a work in
• 35:55
  progress. We literally there wasn't time
• 35:58
  to sit down and do research and development.
• 36:00
  We did it on the fly. Right, man, that's that's a lot
• 36:05
  what I loved about this film. I I'm not much of A jewelry
• 36:09
  person, but I feel like you converted me.
• 36:11
  For example, Teyana Taylor, who played Mary Magdalene, I was
• 36:15
  obsessed with just all the gold accent jewelry on her.
• 36:18
  So how did the gold accents play a part in your process?
• 36:22
  Wow. Well, let's talk about that
• 36:25
  specific piece for just a second.
• 36:28
  It's so good. Gave me a heart attack.
• 36:32
  That was one of the James gave me a few reference images when
• 36:35
  we met in LA for that brief moment.
• 36:41
  And one of them was a beautiful image of three African women
• 36:46
  from afar, which is northern. And they had these elaborate
• 36:52
  jeweled beating gold around the around the Their face was
• 36:58
  covered in it and their head and I looked at him.
• 37:01
  I'm like, that's not a period picture.
• 37:08
  I want Lady Madeleine. She's driving a chariot.
• 37:17
  Wait a minute, this is not adding up.
• 37:21
  Yeah. And he's like, yeah, and I'm
• 37:25
  like, OK, in other words, make it happen, Internet.
• 37:31
  So that was the challenge. And I I went to, I did the
• 37:39
  research, obviously, you know, deep diving.
• 37:43
  Where did this image come from? And that's how I recognize,
• 37:46
  realized that they came from afar, but not just afar, across
• 37:52
  Northern Africa, these women as far back as 1000 AD that I could
• 37:57
  find, I couldn't find anything further than that.
• 38:00
  That wasn't a painting. And you could see in the
• 38:03
  paintings that they were jewel, but not to that style.
• 38:07
  So OK, at least I know it. It's not just today it goes
• 38:13
  back. The materials may have changed,
• 38:16
  but the style was the same. So I then had to take what was
• 38:24
  the original inspiration and we had.
• 38:28
  We found actual original pieces that I had come from all over
• 38:33
  the world shipped into me so that we could see how the shape
• 38:40
  and then I had to make it work for somebody who had three stunt
• 38:43
  people. So much.
• 38:49
  You know, it's a stunt, You know, she's actually, and she is
• 38:53
  badass. Yeah, Taylor got behind that
• 38:56
  chair and rode that. I was in.
• 38:58
  It's like the first few minutes of the film and I was like, I'm
• 39:01
  strapped in, let's go. Yeah.
• 39:03
  So that that piece was custom and workshop to death as we went
• 39:09
  because it needed to to represent that community, but
• 39:15
  also it needed to work as I do a lot of action movies, creative
• 39:22
  ads to work within a stunt environment.
• 39:25
  You know what I mean? I I now I hate it but I have to
• 39:31
  design around the action around the stunt and make sure that my
• 39:35
  stunt actors are are safe and we'll be safe.
• 39:39
  You know how do we make the the stunt woman's eyepiece
• 39:43
  comfortable and line So that is that you know when she if she
• 39:49
  falls she won't hurt herself or hurt her eyes.
• 39:51
  All those things I have to take into consideration when I'm
• 39:54
  designing it, you know, but rest of the jewelry we made some in
• 40:01
  house, OK. Yeah, some of it, especially
• 40:05
  some of the beautiful pieces that were worn in the harem we
• 40:08
  made. And we found Paris costumes has
• 40:14
  an entire floor of collections from different ages of jewelry.
• 40:20
  So I I flew to Spain to do some pulling and pulled a lot of
• 40:23
  jewelry from Paris. I found jewelry at Rancati.
• 40:30
  We found jewelry in the African markets in Rome.
• 40:34
  You know the vendors who brought up jewelry from Africa and some
• 40:40
  of them still very organic and haven't changed in decades.
• 40:46
  You know, but jewelry was important not only for the
• 40:51
  minimalism of it, but to show progress with with with time
• 40:58
  passage. As these men, Clarence's tribe,
• 41:03
  you know that they went from having nothing to you start to
• 41:09
  see the jewelry getting, not just, you know, organic beading
• 41:13
  or shells. It then became metal, you know.
• 41:18
  That's where you saw class structure too.
• 41:22
  Interesting. So Antoinette James McAvoy was
• 41:26
  recently on Good Morning America and he gave you quite the shout
• 41:29
  out regarding a certain curveball he threw you.
• 41:32
  But he also brought up his love for the armor that his character
• 41:35
  got to wear. So I want to ask you, how did
• 41:38
  the armor come about for the Roman soldiers?
• 41:42
  James, I hear that. Let's talk a little about the
• 41:44
  wardrobe, that there was a particular suit that you're a
• 41:47
  very excited costume that you were excited to wear.
• 41:50
  Yeah, you saw me in a a la Toga, I guess just there which is what
• 41:54
  I was meant to wear. And I show up on the first day
• 41:56
  and Antoinette, our incredible caution designer is going, so
• 41:59
  this is what you're going to wear.
• 42:00
  This is what's in the script and like, no, no, no, no, I need, I
• 42:02
  need like Roman armor. She's like well we think he's
• 42:05
  more like a kind of diplomat or something like no, no, no, he's
• 42:08
  a really like he's a he's a teed off soldier that like has to do
• 42:12
  this. So I need armor.
• 42:13
  And she's like. You got less than 24 hours to
• 42:16
  get you some armor. I was like, I'm sure you can do
• 42:18
  it. And she did.
• 42:19
  She pulled out the bag and she gave.
• 42:20
  Me this amazing. Thing and.
• 42:22
  I really I accepted this role so that I could get to where armor.
• 42:26
  I need my armor. Need my armor?
• 42:28
  Go find some armor. They found it for you.
• 42:30
  They worked. That almost killed me.
• 42:38
  I rewatched it this morning. I was like, this doesn't sound
• 42:41
  like a good story. It was not.
• 42:43
  It was not a good story. So we're shooting in Matera and
• 42:50
  before we wrapped for the holidays we had one week of
• 42:54
  stage work in Rome. The work we did in Rome was the
• 43:00
  jail cell and the The Walking on water scene.
• 43:05
  And we did all of James Mcavoy's scenes in Rome, and so I had to
• 43:11
  fly from Matera to Rome to meet with him before the rest of the
• 43:16
  crew traveled that weekend. And as per usual, he doesn't
• 43:25
  land until like Friday, Thursday night.
• 43:28
  We got there Friday morning, midday.
• 43:31
  I'm fitting him Friday for camera Monday.
• 43:36
  Oh boy, I was trying to get chills already.
• 43:38
  Yes. So I spoke to him.
• 43:41
  I think I spoke to him like Thursday night before I
• 43:44
  traveled. This is how tight my casting was
• 43:47
  on this film. And again, shout out to the best
• 43:51
  cutter stitchers ever. Nothing frazzled them.
• 43:56
  So we've done as scripted as requested by James.
• 44:00
  He was wearing a, you know, very elaborate toga for his stature.
• 44:05
  And I told him this when we spoke and he said, I don't know,
• 44:14
  I'm thinking, I'm thinking I want to be in a uniform and I'm
• 44:19
  like, OK, well we'll see what we can do.
• 44:21
  And obviously this is not scripted, this is not.
• 44:28
  I didn't have enough time to find out how accurate this would
• 44:34
  be, but he just felt for how he wanted to portray the the
• 44:38
  character. This is the route he wanted to
• 44:41
  go. Did I mention that Gladiators
• 44:44
  was prepping at the same time? You mean the one Janta Yates is
• 44:49
  doing? Oh my gosh, yeah.
• 44:53
  Oh my gosh, that's horrible. I mean, it's also cool, but
• 44:56
  horrible. Yeah, so we for when I arrived,
• 45:04
  my background, my crowd supervisor had already gone
• 45:07
  ahead of me and was fit in her costumes for the background
• 45:17
  scenes because there was a lot of Roman soldiers and some of
• 45:19
  them were stunts. And she's like, I think I've
• 45:24
  taken everything that is left. I don't know that there's a
• 45:27
  general like he wouldn't have needed to be of a higher level.
• 45:33
  So we found we bought we I pulled one of hers just so he
• 45:36
  could try it and see if this is what he wanted to do.
• 45:43
  So when we went he tried on He's like, well this isn't this is
• 45:47
  not. I need to look different from
• 45:48
  the others and I said I know, but I don't know.
• 45:56
  I can't guarantee that I will be able to.
• 46:01
  I said. I have every rental house
• 46:02
  looking to find something in your size, in the, you know,
• 46:09
  that is appropriate because my, it wasn't Even so much that we
• 46:13
  couldn't find something. I wanted to be sure that it
• 46:18
  would be the right costume. So I literally had my
• 46:22
  supervisor, who was still in Matera, contacting Western
• 46:27
  costume military to help me just narrow down because in Italy
• 46:34
  they're going to tell me, oh, it's fine.
• 46:39
  It's not fine. Oh, let me at least see what
• 46:42
  it's supposed to look like, right?
• 46:45
  So we got that. And obviously the one I was
• 46:49
  putting on him was not accurate because it would have been a
• 46:51
  much junior but he tried it and he's like, oh, wool makes me
• 46:57
  itch because the under tunics were all made out of wool makes
• 47:01
  me itch and OK, great, one of my cut earnest stitchers here we
• 47:07
  can cut a line in to put under something.
• 47:10
  I said I'm going to try my hardest to find you the accurate
• 47:15
  costume, so we literally had to go dig back into the back walls
• 47:24
  of I think we found something at Peruzzi, a couple that were
• 47:29
  close enough and when he tried it on he went into allergic
• 47:37
  reaction. Oh.
• 47:41
  Gosh, I'm stressed out right now.
• 47:45
  We had to call the doctor. We had.
• 47:48
  I mean, I'd already asked the first ADS, and they were really
• 47:52
  supportive to change the shooting schedule for Monday, to
• 47:57
  have him first be in the white toga for the jail scene so that
• 48:02
  I had time to fit him in the morning before his he he went to
• 48:06
  camera and then line whichever of the uniforms we only found
• 48:12
  two, whichever one worked, and then we'd have a couple of hours
• 48:19
  to to get it prepped and for him to be ready for camera.
• 48:23
  And the studio was there that day.
• 48:25
  Legendary was there that day. He went into a massive allergic
• 48:30
  reaction. We had to get the hospital, get
• 48:33
  someone there. They stopped shooting.
• 48:36
  They said put him back and let him wear the other.
• 48:40
  I said let him This is James McAvoy.
• 48:43
  He wants to wear this costume. He wants somebody to give him an
• 48:47
  EpiPen or medication or whatever.
• 48:51
  He's wearing a uniform in that scene.
• 48:54
  We steamed dryer balls, made a lined the costume.
• 49:02
  Doctor King gave him a shot. He was wearing that costume and
• 49:07
  he wore that costume. Nice.
• 49:10
  But I had the producers, the studio, a doctor standing
• 49:16
  outside of the trailer as I'm dressing him for camera.
• 49:21
  My hands were like this. Oh.
• 49:23
  My gosh. I'm going to take out the actor
• 49:27
  before the scene and I'm getting James texting me.
• 49:30
  Just put him in something else and I'm like, he said no, yeah.
• 49:38
  You come here and tell. Him.
• 49:43
  Oh my. Gosh.
• 49:45
  That's above my pay scale. Come on, man.
• 49:49
  I. Dress them.
• 49:49
  I don't tell them what to do. Yeah.
• 49:52
  What? Well, I appreciate this story
• 49:54
  because, you know, I talked to a lot of designers, but I don't
• 49:57
  often hear like the hard times. You know, it's always not that,
• 50:02
  you know, we don't have our struggles.
• 50:03
  But I appreciate the story because it's not always a
• 50:06
  glamorous job at all and this is proof to it.
• 50:10
  But it came out and everyone appears to be happy and I think
• 50:14
  it worked out for the best. What'd you say?
• 50:17
  And you know that really, really sweet of him to acknowledge what
• 50:24
  he put us through. Yeah, I mean, he's very, he
• 50:27
  knows. He knows he's a pro.
• 50:29
  He knows he you know and he was he was right.
• 50:32
  He he just looked at me and says you'll be fine, you'll make it
• 50:35
  happen. Yeah, you know, almost off my
• 50:39
  job guy. Yeah.
• 50:42
  Come on. Yeah.
• 50:45
  Well, with that, I mean, I'm just so happy for you.
• 50:48
  I'm just really excited to see what you're doing next.
• 50:50
  It's really such a joy. And I'm so glad that we're able
• 50:52
  now to talk about these films, costume, desire.
• 50:55
  Antoinette Messam, I hope you will come back again.
• 50:57
  Thank you so much for coming. This was so.
• 50:59
  Fun. No, thank you.
• 51:01
  And thank you for going to see the book of Clarence.
• 51:03
  That makes me really happy of. Course, I want to see it again,
• 51:06
  honestly. And I hope you'll come back
• 51:08
  hopefully around Halloween this year so we could talk about the
• 51:11
  orphan. I still want to do that.
• 51:13
  Yeah. All right.
• 51:16
  All right. Thank you, Antoinette.
• 51:18
  Bye. Hi, this is Dan, audio engineer
• 51:36
  of the podcast here to let you know that if you wanted to
• 51:40
  support the show, you can head over to the Art of
• 51:43
  costume.com/pod store. There you can buy some awesome
• 51:47
  tea, public merch with the podcast logo such as a shirt,
• 51:52
  coffee mug, stickers and of course a baby onesie.
• 51:57
  Thanks for all your support. Spencer That was amazing, that.
• 52:22
  Was such a fun. Interview.
• 52:23
  I could listen to Antoinette talk forever.
• 52:26
  She's just so in depth. I mean, she's she's a
• 52:30
  professional. Oh yeah that like I that's that
• 52:37
  wasn't that was amazing. That was really, really
• 52:41
  interesting and I cannot wait now to play our favorite game.
• 52:46
  Yeah, well, let's do it, Daniel. You know what to do.
• 52:50
  The one costume to rule them all.
• 52:57
  Spencer What's your one costume to rule them all?
• 53:00
  That's a hard one, actually. I kind of struggled this week to
• 53:04
  figure out what. There's just so many great
• 53:06
  costumes in this film. It's it's quite a large film
• 53:09
  too. There's so many costumes, so
• 53:11
  it's hard to settle one, but I think the one that just like
• 53:14
  really captivated me before I even saw the film in terms of
• 53:18
  like the trailer and then going into the film, I really loved it
• 53:21
  was the costume worn by Tiana Taylor, who played Mary
• 53:25
  Magdalene when she's in the chariot with the gold jewelry
• 53:29
  and a Cape, just like following behind her.
• 53:32
  I thought it was spectacular and I just love the colors, the use
• 53:36
  of color in this film in general.
• 53:37
  It was just brilliant and I think Antoinette did an
• 53:40
  incredible job with it. And I'm not much of A jewelry
• 53:43
  person, but this film kind of converted me.
• 53:47
  I was really struck by the use of gold and just jewelry in
• 53:51
  general. I that is, that's very that's
• 53:55
  very, very true. They really use jewelry well in
• 53:58
  this, and jewelry is a little bit of part of my one costume to
• 54:04
  rule them all, which is Clarence's All White Messiah.
• 54:09
  Yeah, at the party. At the party, he is just ready
• 54:16
  to woo his woman, and I love it, 'cause it's so like
• 54:21
  quintessentially like like Messiah Jesusy look, but
• 54:27
  perfectly tailored to the character of Clarence.
• 54:31
  It's It's perfect. It is so perfect.
• 54:35
  I also have to give an honorable mention to Benedict
• 54:41
  Cumberbatch's character once he has been cleaned up and looks
• 54:46
  like just the, like, stereotypical white Jesus.
• 54:51
  That's. So funny.
• 54:54
  I was laughing so much. It was so hard.
• 54:59
  It was so perfectly executed, so perfectly executed.
• 55:04
  It was fantastic. She did an incredible job across
• 55:08
  the board. I love that, too, because I
• 55:11
  remember I I found out just before I saw that Benedict
• 55:14
  Cumberbatch was in it. And the whole time you're
• 55:16
  watching a movie, you're like, Are you sure he's in it?
• 55:20
  You know, like just kind of looking at every character like
• 55:23
  something's not adding up. And then when you see the big
• 55:25
  reveal, oh, there it is. Yes.
• 55:30
  So funny. I love that Benedict Cumberbatch
• 55:32
  wanted to do that role too, you know?
• 55:35
  Oh gosh, it was. So I like, that's another thing
• 55:38
  about this movie. The casting is flawless.
• 55:40
  Oh yeah, it's. Like.
• 55:42
  Every character. Every.
• 55:44
  Cast Member was brilliant in this film.
• 55:46
  There's not a lot of movies that I watch where I'm like, Oh yeah,
• 55:49
  you couldn't have cast this any other way, but this is
• 55:52
  definitely one of those movies. For sure.
• 55:56
  I couldn't agree more. And Elizabeth, that is our The
• 55:59
  Book of Clarence episode. What a fun one I was.
• 56:03
  Unexpected. Like Banger to me, you know.
• 56:06
  Yeah. Oh man.
• 56:09
  Well, if you all loved what you heard in this episode.
• 56:12
  Or maybe you want to tell us what your one costume to rule
• 56:14
  them all is. Don't forget to leave us a
• 56:17
  voicemail at 626-515-1826 or e-mail us at
• 56:22
  theartofcostume@gmail.com. We want to know what your
• 56:26
  favorite costume was, so hit us up.
• 56:28
  Don't worry and we won't bother you with spam or prank calls or
• 56:32
  anything. Though actually, now that I say
• 56:34
  out loud, that would be kind of fun, but I promise I won't.
• 56:37
  Yes, we will not. We absolutely will not prank
• 56:40
  call you or spam e-mail you. I can't imagine getting a prank
• 56:45
  call from us, though it would be funny anyway, people.
• 56:50
  Would be confused. Elizabeth, what Are we watching
• 56:55
  it for our next episode? I am so excited.
• 57:00
  We've waited a long time for this.
• 57:03
  Next week we are watching Dune Part 2.
• 57:08
  Finally, finally, we could finally talk about the next
• 57:13
  Messiah, the Lisa and Al Ghayib. Absolutely, absolutely.
• 57:23
  And if you would like some visuals with what you're
• 57:27
  hearing, check out our YouTube at youtube.com slash at the Art
• 57:33
  of Costume or if you want some content in between episodes, you
• 57:38
  can follow us at the Art of Costume pod on Instagram or at
• 57:43
  the Art of Costume on TikTok. And like we said, it's getting
• 57:47
  warm. So if you need a little like
• 57:49
  T-shirt or something to wear out and about, I don't know, in your
• 57:53
  garden on a nice nature walk, you can go to
• 57:57
  theartofcostume.com/POD store and pick yourself up a Art of
• 58:02
  Costume Podcast T-shirt. Yes, I still haven't let go of
• 58:08
  the Art of Costume podcast Swimsuit.
• 58:10
  That is still very much in the works.
• 58:13
  Sure, OK. We love whatever you say.
• 58:18
  Don't forget to leave us a five star text review on Apple
• 58:22
  Podcasts and you can also rate US on Spotify as well, which we
• 58:25
  very much appreciate. Yes, Elizabeth has been so good
• 58:30
  to see you. I am so excited to hear that The
• 58:32
  Musical is going well, even if you have to sell a bunch of.
• 58:36
  Corsets. So have fun with that.
• 58:39
  Let me know if you need. Anything, I will definitely will
• 58:43
  let you know if I needed anything from California.
• 58:46
  Yep, available to help. Thank you all so much for
• 58:51
  listening. Have a fantastic week.
• 58:57
  The Art of Costume podcast is hosted and produced by Elizabeth
• 59:01
  Joy Glass and Spencer Williams. Our audio engineering and
• 59:06
  editing is done by Dan White. Follow us on TikTok at The Art
• 59:11
  of Costume and Instagram at The Art of Costume Pod.
• 59:16
  If you want to support the show, go to
• 59:18
  theartofcostume.com/podstore. For more podcast updates,
• 59:24
  costume reviews, deep dives and interviews, go to
• 59:28
  theartofcostume.com, A blog dedicated to highlighting the
• 59:33
  best in costume design.