Latest / The Nerdy Photographer Podcast / 142 - The Photographer's Playbook: Secrets to Elevate Your Photography Game

Transcript

142 - The Photographer's Playbook: Secrets to Elevate Your Photography Game · The Nerdy Photographer Podcast

• 0:04
  Casey Fatchett: Snug. No, I can't tell you,
• 0:07
  Gulden Hauer: snug, snug, snug, snug, snug, snug, snug, snug,
• 0:12
  snug, snug, snug. It's because
• 0:14
  Casey Fatchett: that's what makes it a secret. Hey there.
• 0:17
  Welcome to the the new photographer podcast. I'm your
• 0:19
  host. Casey Fatchett, if you've never listened to the show
• 0:21
  before, welcome. Be sure to subscribe while you're here.
• 0:24
  Only takes a minute if this is your 130th time listening. Where
• 0:29
  did I leave those keys? In addition to providing
• 0:33
  entertaining and informative photography related info, I also
• 0:36
  gone go on adventures with the crew of the starship Fibonacci.
• 0:40
  At the moment, I'm making my special secret chili recipe, and
• 0:44
  golden is trying to get the secret to my secret sauce.
• 0:48
  Speaking of secret sauce in this episode of the podcast, I speak
• 0:50
  with Fred ago about a lot of different things, including
• 0:53
  barbecue sauce, as well as some trade secrets that can help your
• 0:57
  photographic journey. All that after the break. Okay, now taste
• 1:02
  this
• 1:03
  Gulden Hauer: snug.
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  Casey Fatchett: I agree it needs more pepper.
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  not sorting through them. You
• 4:06
  Hello and welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your
• 4:09
  host. Casey Fatchett, I'm here with Fred ago. Fuji, Fred, as
• 4:15
  you are known online, and thank you for joining us on the show
• 4:20
  today.
• 4:21
  Fred Agho: Hey, no problem. Glad to be here,
• 4:23
  Casey Fatchett: now I start off with the dice breaker. It's 14.
• 4:33
  Fred Agho: Would you say?
• 4:33
  Casey Fatchett: No, it's a 14. And that is, how do you how do
• 4:39
  you decompress? What is it that
• 4:41
  Fred Agho: you do? How do I decompress? Yeah, I don't know.
• 4:46
  So this was crazy. This last year, I realized that exercising
• 4:53
  and being around friends is a really good way for me to
• 4:58
  decompress like and not. Around friends with camera. It's like,
• 5:02
  just Fred, the person that's around my friend. Sometimes I
• 5:06
  bring the camera and, you know, catch some moments and stuff
• 5:09
  like that. But usually, like, low stress, pretty chill. And
• 5:14
  then I have a garage gym, and getting in there sometimes and
• 5:17
  just working out that helps me go through the day a lot
• 5:20
  smoother.
• 5:22
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I found that there's a I usually talk to
• 5:24
  people about how you avoiding burnout is like, you know, like
• 5:27
  meeting up with friends, with the nothing to do with work,
• 5:32
  even if it's like, my photographer friends, we're
• 5:34
  like, we're not talking about photography stuff, not bringing
• 5:38
  the camera. And like, this last year, I made a commitment to,
• 5:45
  like, really getting outside with my dog and, like, hiking a
• 5:48
  lot and doing a lot of, like, getting away from the computer
• 5:52
  as much as I can. Yeah, I think
• 5:56
  Fred Agho: I make a lot of I make a lot of time for outdoorsy
• 5:59
  stuff. So you have to, because if not you you'll go crazy.
• 6:04
  Because we, what we do is, if you're, unless you're like a
• 6:08
  street photographer going out eight hours a day, you're pretty
• 6:10
  sedentary. It's like, you get the shot and then you come home
• 6:14
  and sit in front of the computer, two, three hours.
• 6:17
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's the I mean, and you're, it's a
• 6:20
  solitary lifestyle in a lot of ways, even though you can be
• 6:23
  photographing people and doing all sorts of stuff, then, you
• 6:27
  know, you're at the end of the day, you're coming like you
• 6:29
  said, you're coming home, you're sitting in front of the computer
• 6:31
  and, yeah, finding ways to get up. I mean, I got my reminder,
• 6:37
  my Apple Watch, reminding me, like, hey, you need to stand up
• 6:39
  and get away from the computer for, you know,
• 6:42
  Fred Agho: a few people don't talk about how lonely it is to
• 6:45
  be a photographer. It is, it's hard. It's like, really is. And
• 6:49
  even when you're somewhere where there's a lot of people, you're
• 6:53
  still like, on a job, you know, so,
• 6:56
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, you can be shooting an event and you feel
• 6:58
  like you're the only person in the room, because you're just
• 7:00
  like, yeah, focused.
• 7:03
  Fred Agho: It's cool. You know, it's a cool when you get into an
• 7:06
  event where it's your friends there, and you can, like, cut to
• 7:09
  the side and have little side combos, but you're not even
• 7:13
  really, truly immersed in those Convos, because you're not
• 7:16
  trying to miss any action or anything like that. So you are
• 7:20
  there by yourself. So a lot of people have no idea how lonely
• 7:23
  it can be.
• 7:24
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's like, I did a wedding a couple weeks
• 7:25
  ago, and I completely forgot that they've been referred to me
• 7:29
  by, like, a previous client. So when the previous clients showed
• 7:33
  up, I was like, Oh, I know somebody here. Like, as, you
• 7:35
  know, like, Hey, we're talking and, you know, like, catching
• 7:39
  up. And, you know, at the same time I'm looking around the room
• 7:43
  while I'm talking to them, still just
• 7:45
  Fred Agho: that much center he's on, trying to make sure I'm
• 7:47
  there. Yeah, so a lot of people don't get that. I mean, it's
• 7:53
  hard. So that's two things I'm starting to tell people, if you
• 7:56
  want to be like, if, if I like, come across like a 20 something
• 7:59
  year old photographer, and I'm like, Hey, you want to be super
• 8:02
  rich. Don't be a photographer. I'm not saying you're gonna make
• 8:06
  good money. But if you want to be like, you know, Bugatti,
• 8:10
  Lamborghini, this is not where it's at. And then, then also, if
• 8:16
  you want to have, like, a big social group that you're always
• 8:21
  going to every Yeah, you have to do double time
• 8:25
  Casey Fatchett: work as a photographer. I mean, for me,
• 8:28
  it's why I've my wife and I talked about it, and I'm taking
• 8:31
  a step back from weddings. We've been doing it for 25 years
• 8:35
  because, oh snap that I just I don't get to hang out with
• 8:40
  people like when our friends are getting together, it's on the
• 8:42
  weekend. It's on the weekend, and if I'm working, you know,
• 8:45
  the last day, you know, we've been together, for me 19 years
• 8:49
  this year, and I thought about all the times like, she went off
• 8:53
  to like, with our friends, like, hang out with them on the
• 8:55
  weekend, and I couldn't, because they're like, Oh, well, we'll
• 8:58
  see Casey in the in the fall, maybe. So, yeah, so that, that
• 9:02
  feeling of you don't get to hang out with your your friends, and
• 9:05
  as far as the making money part, man, there, I was just reading
• 9:08
  before we hopped on this call, somebody pointing out that there
• 9:14
  was a job listing for NFL team photographer that was $19 an
• 9:18
  hour, was the pay. And somebody was like, Is this for real? Is
• 9:23
  this the is this really what it is? And everybody like, chiming
• 9:26
  and going, yep, that's, that's really what it is.
• 9:29
  Fred Agho: Right off, is the exposure you're getting? And
• 9:32
  they're there all day, yeah? So I have a friend who does it, and
• 9:35
  he's like, it's like, an eight hour day, yeah?
• 9:38
  Casey Fatchett: And it's the and it's thing of, like, yeah,
• 9:40
  there. Most of those people were saying, like that, have done it.
• 9:45
  Were saying, you do it like that for a year, and then you go
• 9:47
  somewhere else. You get the the experience, you get the the name
• 9:51
  on your resume, and you try to make maybe go somewhere else and
• 9:54
  make more money, you know, doing it somewhere else, but it
• 9:58
  doesn't pay that much.
• 9:59
  Fred Agho: Do. Nope, it's something you unless you become
• 10:03
  like, the team's lead, yeah, because we got a guy out here,
• 10:07
  he's the lead, and I think he does all their stuff. And
• 10:12
  because I'm in Houston, Houston, Texas, I'm trying to think of
• 10:15
  his name. I can't think of it. And I think he's in a okay
• 10:19
  position, but all the associate ones, yeah, they're making,
• 10:24
  they're not making anything. You're making, like, what 100
• 10:27
  150 bucks a day.
• 10:28
  Casey Fatchett: And those admins, man, that are doing all
• 10:30
  the social media stuff, they're going crazy and like, he's like,
• 10:36
  I'm a Lions fan. I'm from Michigan originally. So it's
• 10:39
  like, okay, they're, they're whoever their social media admin
• 10:43
  is, is nuts, like, it's like they're constantly working out.
• 10:45
  Like, I don't know how much you're getting paid, but I'm
• 10:47
  guessing it's not nearly enough for the number of hours you're
• 10:51
  putting in,
• 10:52
  Fred Agho: because they're dropping content every two
• 10:54
  seconds. Yes, because NFL social media has been doing really
• 10:59
  good. When it gets tough out,
• 11:01
  Casey Fatchett: it's hard. It makes you feel like as a
• 11:03
  photographer, that you like. Social media is a whole other
• 11:05
  thing that makes you feel alone as a photographer. I mean, it's
• 11:09
  both. It can both make you feel connected to people like, hey,
• 11:12
  we just met, and now, you know, like I've met you and this
• 11:16
  podcast is I formed a lot of friendships because of it,
• 11:21
  people who I talk to regularly now, but social media can, like,
• 11:25
  also make you feel like, oh, man, everybody else is doing so
• 11:28
  much stuff. And yeah, and I'm not, not doing me early that
• 11:32
  much. And then you stop to think like I was talking to a friend
• 11:37
  of mine. I was like, Man, I just keep seeing all your photos and
• 11:40
  whatever. He's like, dude, that stuff that I took 10 years ago,
• 11:44
  it's not, it's not like him doing this all, like, all week.
• 11:47
  I'm just like, I'm just constantly posting stuff that
• 11:50
  I've taken over the years. And I'm like, oh, man, I really need
• 11:52
  to reset my head, you know, as to like what you're seeing.
• 11:56
  Like, social media isn't real. No, it's a highlight rule, yeah,
• 12:00
  it's just what you choose to show off to people, yeah, yeah.
• 12:05
  Fred Agho: But no, there's, but there's, there's a hustle to it.
• 12:08
  I mean, I mean, it is a tool, and if you put energy into that
• 12:14
  tool, it can, like most tools, they either, you know, they, for
• 12:20
  the most part, they help. You know, if you're trying to screw
• 12:24
  a screw into a piece of wood, if you put a lackluster energy into
• 12:29
  it, the screw is not going to go very far. But if you put all
• 12:32
  your force and might into the screw, you might even screw it
• 12:35
  too far crack the wood, you know. So I don't, I don't want
• 12:39
  people to, like, look at social media. It's like, uh, no, it's a
• 12:42
  tool. And if you put, you know, the effort into it, or the force
• 12:49
  into it, it can, it can go pretty far. And the cool thing,
• 12:52
  I feel like, let's say, like, their old way of networking, I'm
• 12:57
  gonna say networking does not bad, because I feel like
• 12:59
  networking is done more for me than anything. But let's see
• 13:03
  what's a, what's a, what's an old way for photographers to
• 13:07
  connect. Let's see
• 13:10
  Casey Fatchett: meetup groups. I
• 13:11
  Fred Agho: won't say your local photography groups, because my
• 13:15
  biggest client is because I went to one of those. See, oh no.
• 13:21
  Let's just say photo walk, meetups, right? Let's say that
• 13:25
  that's, that's, that's a screwdriver. Then hosting on
• 13:30
  social media every single day. Really good, you know, quality,
• 13:35
  not even every day. Let's just say you stay on the, on the, on
• 13:40
  the staying consistent, and you post once a week, that's a power
• 13:45
  drill. Yeah, one's gonna, they're both gonna do the same
• 13:49
  thing. It's just one does it a lot faster.
• 13:52
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah I think it depends on, like, you have to
• 13:54
  understand, like, I always refer to it as different tools in the
• 13:57
  toolbox, like, whether it's you know, how you market yourself,
• 14:01
  how you network with people, and that's the other thing, like
• 14:04
  networking means this is something another friend of mine
• 14:09
  that I went to college with told, told me, and he was like,
• 14:11
  and this is the thing they never tell you, is that it's what you
• 14:14
  can do for each other versus the people you know. But it's not
• 14:18
  just like, Oh, you're existing in a vacuum, and that person is
• 14:21
  only helping you. Like, like, they're going to call you up and
• 14:24
  be like, Oh, we've got this great job that we want for you.
• 14:26
  When you've done absolutely nothing for them. For the life
• 14:29
  you like, you have to be in their mind as the person to call
• 14:33
  for a reason. And it's like, Yeah, you like, when you are
• 14:37
  reaching out and say, like, how can I help you? What can I do
• 14:40
  for you occasionally, you know, you in building quality
• 14:44
  relationships for your networking, as opposed to, just
• 14:46
  like, I've got 1000 people's names and numbers, but you know,
• 14:50
  nobody really I'm not at the front of anybody's mind, as
• 14:54
  opposed to, I've got 10 people who I'm regularly in touch with,
• 14:58
  who will definitely call me a. When the time is right?
• 15:01
  Fred Agho: Yep, we're hitting the nail on the needle right
• 15:05
  here. People, youngsters, I hope y'all listen to this one. This
• 15:09
  is going to be a great one. Because, no, it's that that's
• 15:14
  very true. Because, like, like, he's it's better to have five
• 15:20
  really good, solid context that you know, feed you and take care
• 15:26
  of you and put you in great positions, then 100,000 people
• 15:30
  do nothing for you at
• 15:31
  Casey Fatchett: all, right? Yeah. I mean, it's the adage of
• 15:35
  quality over quantity is, is? Yeah. I mean, you talking about
• 15:40
  giving advice for people who are starting out. I mean, there's,
• 15:43
  there's, I've got a lot of advice I'd give, but it's, you
• 15:46
  know, like, it's one that's one of the things, like, you know,
• 15:49
  stop marketing yourself to photographers.
• 15:54
  Fred Agho: Need to market to your clients, because I had
• 15:57
  about a five to six year run with weddings. And the one thing
• 16:02
  I figured out really fast was, yes, marketing on social media
• 16:08
  helps, right? It gets you a lot of leads. But if you weren't in,
• 16:13
  if you didn't have a wedding planner in your pocket, half
• 16:17
  your ear is going to be empty, yeah, if you don't have a
• 16:21
  wedding planner who's like, I like you, and when I get
• 16:25
  weddings that align with what you do, I'm gonna call you Yeah,
• 16:31
  that I mean, because I know you can attest to it. Oh, it's good
• 16:36
  Casey Fatchett: planners and venues. Planners and venues,
• 16:38
  more venues, even more so than planners venues, if you can get
• 16:41
  in with the people the people the venues, that is the first
• 16:44
  thing they're gonna say, like that is where between we gotta
• 16:48
  go, but yeah, between referrals from other couples who've worked
• 16:51
  with me, and venues that is, like most of my wedding
• 16:54
  business, because the venue person is, like, likes to work
• 16:57
  with you. You send them nice photos that they can use to
• 16:59
  promote their venue. They're just like, hey, this guy, this
• 17:04
  is the person that I'm going to recommend to everybody who comes
• 17:07
  through here. And there's like, you know, that's like, the first
• 17:12
  experience that most couples are going to have is with that venue
• 17:17
  manager. And then they give your name to them and like, say, Hey,
• 17:22
  give this person a call, because they're really good, and they've
• 17:24
  worked here before, and we like them. That's, that's just like,
• 17:28
  a huge vote of confidence in your abilities that they're
• 17:31
  giving to that potential client. And that's like, that's like,
• 17:33
  everywhere you go to like, they mean, if you're doing commercial
• 17:36
  work or corporate work, corporate event planners and
• 17:41
  people who work in events at the companies, not like the event
• 17:45
  planner who is separate from the company, but if you get in good
• 17:48
  with those people who, like, set up the events for the corporate,
• 17:52
  you know, for the company, they all talk to each other. They all
• 17:57
  talk to each other. So when somebody is looking for somebody
• 17:59
  like, Oh, hey, we need a photographer for an event. And
• 18:01
  they're like, oh, yeah, I know somebody like that. Those worlds
• 18:05
  are very small. Those are the connections that you need to
• 18:07
  make. And I think that there's a disconnect sometimes, when I see
• 18:14
  you, when I talk to, you know, younger photographers who who
• 18:17
  think that, you know, well, just look at my work. My work is
• 18:20
  amazing. Well, I mean, I can see less than amazing work on people
• 18:23
  who work all the time. You want to work consistently. That's
• 18:26
  what they want. They want consistency, and people they
• 18:29
  know are going to show up, people they know they can trust.
• 18:32
  And that's why it's hard to get in with this to begin with, is
• 18:35
  because they they want someone who is consistent
• 18:40
  Fred Agho: and not to take away from social media at all, it
• 18:44
  does bring So, okay, my highest paid client is from social
• 18:52
  media. My biggest client, no, sorry, sorry. So pick the
• 18:57
  highest paid client is from meeting them out in the wild
• 19:01
  right through going to meet groups with photographers and
• 19:06
  meeting them. My biggest client is through social media. So
• 19:12
  you're now, my biggest client isn't sustaining my life. You
• 19:18
  know, it's a nice jump in pay it's something cool to put on
• 19:22
  the, you know, on the internet and say, This is what I work
• 19:24
  with, and things like that, but my most paying client, and I'm
• 19:31
  assuming, for a lot of people that don't your planners are
• 19:34
  going to be your most paying clients. Your venues are going
• 19:38
  to be your most paying clients, the small businesses in your
• 19:42
  city that you know consistently work with you are going to be
• 19:45
  your most paying clients. So, yeah, you might work with
• 19:49
  somebody you know in a year, 678, times, and they pay you, I
• 19:55
  don't know, just throw round number $20,000 over that period
• 19:59
  of time, right? Versus Brand X comes and gives you seven grand
• 20:06
  or eight grand one time, right? You're, you're living off of the
• 20:11
  20 and the seven is just, it's a cake, and makes you look cool.
• 20:16
  Yeah, not too many people now. They do have you do have
• 20:18
  anomalies. You do have guys out there who literally get the
• 20:23
  seven grand every month from these, you know, from Brand X.
• 20:27
  But I don't think, I don't know about you, that's not the norm.
• 20:31
  Casey Fatchett: It isn't the norm. I mean, I have a friend,
• 20:33
  my best friend, who's a photographer. We've known each
• 20:36
  other for like, 20 something years, 20 almost 28 years now,
• 20:43
  he is like, all like corporate commercial stuff. And it's like,
• 20:46
  he has, you know, a dozen regular clients who are like,
• 20:52
  that's just, he goes from like, corporate gig to corporate gig
• 20:54
  to corporate gig, among all of them. And it's just like, you
• 20:57
  know, he's traveling all over the world, and so like that.
• 21:00
  He's He's that made that his focus. But it's like, he's built
• 21:03
  those relationships up over more than a decade, okay, to get
• 21:09
  where he is now. And it's just like, you know now he's got that
• 21:11
  and and it's because he started off doing that one job a year
• 21:18
  for those people, and eventually it got to a point where they
• 21:23
  started bringing him back to do other stuff, and like, oh, well,
• 21:25
  why don't we just gonna have you do our national meeting or
• 21:28
  whatever? And then he became, like, they're pretty much kind
• 21:31
  of, like, not in house, but like their go to person, so that,
• 21:35
  like, it can get there. It is not the typical thing where,
• 21:42
  like, you're, what you're saying is like, you know, and I've had
• 21:43
  the same thing I had, I had, you know, big brand X, contact me.
• 21:48
  Let's do this project together. Great, paid, wonderful. You
• 21:53
  might see them next year. You might not see them for another
• 21:55
  three years. You might not ever see them again. Like, you don't
• 21:58
  know that that's coming back, but it's like, those people you
• 22:00
  said, those people around you that you create those
• 22:03
  connections with, that are constantly feeding you more
• 22:06
  jobs. They might not be the biggest jobs, but they add up
• 22:09
  over time, and they're in there consistently. They're coming
• 22:11
  back year after year. You know, to give you work, that's how you
• 22:16
  that's how you eat. As a photographer,
• 22:18
  Fred Agho: yeah, that's what sustains you. That's what
• 22:20
  sustains you.
• 22:22
  Casey Fatchett: Otherwise you're here, you're left sitting there
• 22:24
  going, like, okay, how am I gonna make my bills this month?
• 22:28
  You know? Like, it's a, I
• 22:31
  Fred Agho: I don't know about you. Case I'm too big to be a
• 22:34
  starving artist.
• 22:35
  Casey Fatchett: Oh, you can't tell from the I'm a big man,
• 22:39
  definitely a large mammal.
• 22:42
  Fred Agho: I can't, be a starving artist. I got too comfy
• 22:44
  out here
• 22:44
  Casey Fatchett: comfortable the barbecues to get down there in
• 22:46
  Houston.
• 22:51
  Fred Agho: Brisket. And we do pretty good sausage. We do beef
• 22:56
  ribs, foods Houston, man. Everybody chose it like, Oh, our
• 23:01
  food, nah. If you haven't eaten here, you know,
• 23:05
  Casey Fatchett: I've been there. My in laws used to live in
• 23:07
  Houston, so I'd go down there a couple times a year.
• 23:10
  Fred Agho: Yeah. What type of food do you like the best down
• 23:12
  here?
• 23:13
  Casey Fatchett: Barbecue? And I'm a big fan of Mexican food,
• 23:18
  so it's Tex Mex or Mexican I like real Mexican food. I also
• 23:22
  think Tex Mex is fine. But I like real Mexican food because
• 23:26
  Fred Agho: our Tex Mex is really I tried every people. So I like
• 23:29
  our Mexican food a lot. But I don't know. I just like the Tex
• 23:34
  Mex better, because I don't know, you know, the feeders and
• 23:38
  things like that. So it's still, like, elements of barbecue with
• 23:42
  the beans,
• 23:43
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, like that. I mean, I love the I mean, like,
• 23:45
  it's like, when I cook a lot, and I have, like, several sets
• 23:51
  of, like, we've got the Tex Mex cookbooks, and then we've got
• 23:54
  the one that's like, actually Mexico. So those are two
• 23:57
  separate things. And you know, it's when you really want to get
• 24:03
  another word, right now, pork, not pastor, carnitas. Like, real
• 24:13
  carnitas. Like, that's, that's a whole other thing. It's like,
• 24:18
  it's a lot like barbecue. It's all that slow, low cooking stuff
• 24:22
  and yum, yum, yum, yeah. I can't not I can't not eat. I can't not
• 24:27
  eat.
• 24:28
  Fred Agho: Menudo on Sundays is my thing. The I love their
• 24:33
  soups.
• 24:35
  Casey Fatchett: They like a good tortilla soup. It's the best.
• 24:39
  Gotta be a little spicy. Gotta be a little spicy. I was just in
• 24:41
  Puerto Rico, you know, it's funny, because I'm white and,
• 24:45
  like, I ordered something, and they're just like, you sure you
• 24:47
  want this? This is kind of spicy. And I was like, yeah,
• 24:49
  that's why I ordered it. And it was not, it was not that spicy.
• 24:53
  But they were just like, we were worried about you.
• 24:57
  Fred Agho: You're a little bit, you're a little pale. I mean,
• 24:59
  the. What I said, monfongo. Afongo? Yeah, I'm gonna do
• 25:05
  monfongo with the beef. If they have goat, I'm gonna do goat.
• 25:10
  Casey Fatchett: I like a good to stone a and delicious anyway,
• 25:15
  yeah, I mean, you're not gonna eat. You're not gonna, you're
• 25:20
  not gonna be a fat photographer. If you don't, you don't have
• 25:24
  those people feeding you jobs over and over. Like, that's you
• 25:29
  just gonna, yeah. And I certainly went in those. I made
• 25:34
  the mistakes at points in my career where I was like, Oh,
• 25:37
  this is it? Thinking like that Job was gonna, like, be there
• 25:41
  consistently every year, and like, made decisions based on,
• 25:44
  like, Oh, I got this big job. There is no silver bullet job
• 25:49
  that's gonna, like, set you up for forever.
• 25:54
  Fred Agho: And I did all the right things. I followed up,
• 25:57
  emailed, i i sent little gifts and thank you, I put out work. I
• 26:07
  follow the contract to the T and nobody from there called me back
• 26:12
  ever again, and come to find out one of the people wasn't working
• 26:19
  there anymore. So that's just a nuance of big companies. Yeah,
• 26:24
  first people who follow me and like me aren't even there
• 26:27
  anymore.
• 26:28
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, the thing that I've found there is to try
• 26:30
  to figure out where they went. That's, that's, that's, that's
• 26:35
  when somebody it's a lesson I learned for actually, from my
• 26:38
  parents. They love to go to Vegas, and they go to Vegas, and
• 26:41
  they'd make friends with whoever, the person who was in
• 26:44
  charge of, like, client services, you know, who comps
• 26:46
  people stuff. So, like, with that person would, like,
• 26:49
  eventually get a job somewhere else. They go to Caesars, so
• 26:53
  they knew the person there, and that person, like, graduates and
• 26:56
  goes to MGM. So now they're going to, they're like, we're
• 26:59
  going to go to Caesar's, because now we know the new person that
• 27:01
  they trained, who also is a friend of us. But we also go to
• 27:05
  MGM and spend a little time there, because that's where a
• 27:07
  friend moved. We're still like, you know, and they would send,
• 27:10
  you know, my mother would send Christmas cards, find out their
• 27:14
  birthdays and birthday cards and stuff like that. But yeah, like
• 27:16
  making those connections with people and find out where they
• 27:19
  went. I was a that would that happened to me be with a good
• 27:24
  corporate job that I was getting, and then just like
• 27:26
  that, wasn't hearing back from them, same thing, like the
• 27:28
  person had moved to another company. And so it took me,
• 27:32
  like, six months to find out where they went, and I reached
• 27:34
  out to them, and they were like, Oh, we don't have anything yet.
• 27:36
  But eventually, like, a year down the line, they were able to
• 27:39
  get me in there. So that was helpful, but, yeah,
• 27:43
  Fred Agho: LinkedIn is a great tool. Oh yeah, it'll help you
• 27:46
  with that, that quest, and make it a lot quicker.
• 27:50
  Casey Fatchett: LinkedIn, like this, is the again, making those
• 27:55
  connections and being able to say, Hey, I know somebody. You
• 27:57
  know there's, it's a foot in the door to be able to say, like,
• 28:04
  oh, I worked with you. Got to be careful about how you word it,
• 28:07
  because you don't know what their relationship is. I'm like,
• 28:11
  Oh, I noticed that you are connected to so and so I've done
• 28:14
  some work for them before, whatever. Like, you don't lead
• 28:17
  in be like, Hey, we're the best friends. And they're like, we're
• 28:19
  enemies. I didn't like that guy, that's why I left that that
• 28:24
  place. But I still have to have it open, because, I mean, just,
• 28:27
  it's just the world we live in that I got to keep that
• 28:30
  connection
• 28:30
  Fred Agho: there just nuances to this. So yeah, and I call them
• 28:37
  soft skills, and they took me a while to understand the soft
• 28:39
  skills. I knew the hard skills, you know, exposure, like
• 28:43
  direction and intensity, and you know, a lot of people focus on
• 28:49
  the hard skills and neglect the soft skills, or good work.
• 28:54
  That's what's gonna make or break this. Yeah, if you're
• 28:59
  Casey Fatchett: trying to run a business, you need to have those
• 29:02
  skills, otherwise you can be the greatest photographer in the
• 29:05
  world and nobody's gonna want to work with you, or you're not
• 29:09
  gonna be able to, like, keep the jobs coming in, just like by
• 29:13
  knowing and again, this is this feels like a for our listeners.
• 29:17
  This might feel like a recurring theme. I always say, like, you
• 29:22
  don't have to be the best photographer in the world. You
• 29:24
  just have to have some people skills.
• 29:27
  Fred Agho: Oh, I won. So all right, so let's, let me give you
• 29:38
  some insight. So this is what a production day looks like for
• 29:40
  me. I come on set. I get there about 30 minutes early, right? I
• 29:46
  meet every single person on production. I'm talking every
• 29:53
  security because you know some some productions, you'll have
• 29:56
  security on premise. Everybody. What's your name? Say their
• 30:01
  name. Repeat it to myself, say their name, and at some point in
• 30:06
  during the day, I say that person like, so if John say,
• 30:10
  John has security, thank you. It would like, hey man, thank you
• 30:14
  very much, John. Appreciate you taking care of us and making
• 30:16
  sure we're safe. At some point, yeah, John might not have any
• 30:21
  power at all, right, but at the end of the day he gets around
• 30:25
  management, he says, You know what, that friend guy was cool,
• 30:29
  yeah, so I'm every single person on production right? Boom,
• 30:32
  right. Then I do a mini meeting with the production crew, like
• 30:38
  my crew, like, you know, we make sure, because sometimes you
• 30:42
  bring people from out of town and or sometimes you come out of
• 30:44
  town, you meet people. And we want everybody to, you know, be
• 30:47
  cool talk. Say what we do, where we're from, literally, I'll say,
• 30:51
  Hey, my name is Fred, and then John would be done. My name is
• 30:54
  John or Mary behind my name. We literally do that. Then I go
• 30:59
  meet with the higher ups talk with them and just, you know,
• 31:03
  make sure that they know I understand the mission for the
• 31:06
  day. Then we go from there and we go talk to the models,
• 31:10
  because at the end of the day, if they're not comfortable,
• 31:14
  you're not getting anything. Yeah, so I go to them. Don't
• 31:18
  know, hey, if you're not comfortable at any point in
• 31:22
  time, you just let me know, we'll take a break. I have no
• 31:25
  problem. Most models are super cool. They're happy to get paid.
• 31:28
  So they're super cool. You go from there, then you go to
• 31:31
  makeup or styling, or, you know, every anything talk to. Then
• 31:39
  here's the secret sauce. Guys get really cool with the PAs,
• 31:43
  like the assistants, because they're going to go somewhere
• 31:48
  else at some point in time. Yeah, and if they had a really
• 31:53
  good experience with you, and say their friends aren't ready
• 31:57
  yet, you will be the first person that they call Yeah,
• 32:01
  always keep up with the because a lot of times people want to
• 32:04
  bring in their own people. But we're in a day and age where
• 32:06
  people have to have that honesty with their stuff and say,
• 32:09
  because it's happened where I've even shot for like it was a
• 32:13
  couple, the couple that got the girl has a boyfriend who's a
• 32:17
  photographer, but he can't, not there yet. Yeah, so she, you
• 32:24
  know, hires me and them, but it's from just another job, and
• 32:30
  so just being personable and memorable to every single person
• 32:36
  that you come across that really helps out a lot.
• 32:39
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, people, and you, you brought up a really
• 32:42
  good point, remembering everybody's name, like, just,
• 32:45
  just that simple thing of, like, knowing people's names and
• 32:49
  saying, like, in saying hi to them or whatever during the day,
• 32:52
  like they're like, Do you know how many people like I will,
• 32:56
  like, whatever job I'm on, I try to do the same thing. Like, even
• 33:00
  if it's a wedding, whatever, like knowing the names of the
• 33:02
  bridesmaids, groomsmen, knowing people's names. So I can say,
• 33:04
  like, hey, so and so, can you help me for a second? Like, hold
• 33:07
  this here, whatever. And everybody's kind of like, Oh.
• 33:10
  Like, they're just not like, Hey, you like that? That buy in,
• 33:14
  yeah, yeah.
• 33:15
  Fred Agho: They're first. I used to do name tags. I would, I
• 33:20
  would come to the set with name tags and give them out and just,
• 33:25
  hey, everybody hears name tags. I don't want anybody calling a
• 33:28
  you or hey, you know, that's when I insert a little dad joke,
• 33:32
  because I want nobody calling anybody Hey, because hey for
• 33:35
  horses everybody. Yeah, being a dad and dad jokes take you
• 33:41
  pretty far too.
• 33:42
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, being just, I mean, being a chill
• 33:45
  person to hang around with like, that's, that's a takes you a
• 33:50
  long way. I think that what you're talking about, as far as
• 33:56
  soft skills are, are becoming a lost art. In some ways, I think
• 34:01
  that the people don't realize that, that those things are
• 34:06
  really what elevates your game. It's what it's what helps you
• 34:10
  stand out from all the people. And like you said, like, oh,
• 34:13
  they might not have a friend who isn't quite there yet, but it's
• 34:18
  also like, if the person they were going to hire isn't
• 34:20
  available. Who are they going to hire? They're like, Oh,
• 34:24
  something happened. I'm double booked. I'm sorry I can't do
• 34:28
  that date for you. Or I'm, you know, whatever, the reason why
• 34:31
  they their first their first choice person is now, like, not
• 34:35
  around to help work with them. And they're like, I gotta find
• 34:40
  somebody else. Oh, you know what? I had a really great time
• 34:42
  working. Working with Fred. Then I'm gonna, I'm gonna give Fred a
• 34:46
  call, see if he's available to do this shoot, because I had
• 34:49
  such a great time on that shoot. It was five years ago, but, you
• 34:52
  know, wonder if he's around and available, you know, like, that
• 34:55
  sort of thing. Like, it sticks in your head. I mean, I think of
• 34:57
  there are times when, um. Um, people ask me for
• 35:02
  recommendations if I'm not available, and it's like, oh,
• 35:06
  you know what? I like? Had a good like this person assisted
• 35:09
  me. They're a photographer. Now I trust them like you should go
• 35:14
  talk to them, because they were really good. Go give that person
• 35:17
  a call because, like, those things that stick in your mind,
• 35:21
  whereas there are people who worked with me who I had the
• 35:24
  absolute worst experience with, and I will never work like
• 35:28
  recommend them for anything. And it's, it's a it's a small world
• 35:32
  and whatever, even, like, I'm in New York, it's still a small
• 35:35
  world. Amongst photographers, you know, somebody called me and
• 35:38
  mentioned one of those people who had a bad experience his
• 35:41
  name with that would be like, new Absolutely not. Don't do it.
• 35:46
  Just because, like, you know, I I'm not gonna say what they did,
• 35:50
  but like, there's just, like, people totally unprofessional
• 35:52
  behavior, and you know, things that you know I would not abide
• 35:56
  by. And that's like, I'm not gonna recommend that person for
• 35:59
  a job.
• 36:00
  Fred Agho: Oh, and ways to know if, if you failed the test or
• 36:08
  not, if they don't get a beer with you afterwards you failed.
• 36:12
  Yeah, you're out of there. Man, it's not happening, not
• 36:17
  happening. You're not getting the call back. Yeah?
• 36:19
  Casey Fatchett: I mean, it's like, and after I'm done with a
• 36:21
  shoot River, and I'm like, Hey everybody, let's go hang out
• 36:23
  whatever. Like, you know, we got at least we can hang out for a
• 36:26
  little while. Like, and if I'm like, not you, that's not, not a
• 36:31
  good sign.
• 36:33
  Fred Agho: Not a good sign at all.
• 36:34
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, don't, don't go smoke weed, like, next
• 36:38
  in front of my client. Like, that's not a good idea. I don't,
• 36:41
  yeah, I had that happen, and I was just like, Excuse me, what
• 36:46
  are you doing? You're leaving is what you're doing. Because, you
• 36:52
  know, whatever you do in your personal time, that's, that's
• 36:56
  your personal time.
• 36:57
  Fred Agho: But you want to be artists, and, you know, think on
• 37:01
  a higher plane, that's not what I need, right?
• 37:05
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's not what we're doing right now. This
• 37:07
  is not, we're not in that. This is not the phase that we're in.
• 37:12
  But, yeah, that's it. It's the, I think, that it comes to, if
• 37:21
  you're out there and you're assisting somebody, or you're
• 37:23
  like, This is, like, a whole other related topic. If you're
• 37:27
  in this business and you're going out and you're assisting
• 37:29
  someone, or you're working with them in some capacity, being
• 37:33
  that person that they don't have to tell what to do is like, one
• 37:38
  great thing. The other thing is just like, coming up with things
• 37:41
  that you can help with in like, before they have to ask you that
• 37:47
  I need something that being that able to like, okay, they're
• 37:50
  gonna need this. I'm gonna be in position like that is your
• 37:54
  climbing the ladder, on my recommendation,
• 37:58
  Fred Agho: in proactive, absolutely, you have to be if
• 38:02
  you're intuitive and you're proactive, it helps out a lot.
• 38:06
  We have friends out of town. So we're dog watching
• 38:14
  Casey Fatchett: what kind of dog? Because my dog has been
• 38:16
  like I have a Border Collie, and she's been very needy today. I
• 38:22
  had to let her know that, you know, like, I'm gonna be
• 38:24
  shooting myself in my office before this call. This is a
• 38:28
  golden doodle, okay? Or some kind of doodle. It's got the
• 38:34
  poodle hair. It's brown. I'm guessing it's a golden doodle.
• 38:42
  So I'm curious, Fred, what's the worst photography advice you've
• 38:47
  ever received? Or business
• 38:56
  Fred Agho: don't get too ego based in your decision.
• 39:03
  Sometimes you're gonna have to be the little guy. I'm a former
• 39:08
  athlete, and I gotta say this one, I don't take nothing from I
• 39:18
  don't I'm not the one like, don't, don't try me. Yeah, and
• 39:23
  if I feel like you've tried me, I'll just be done. And I usually
• 39:29
  go out. I've learned a lot now to go out you can, you can
• 39:33
  remove yourself from a situation and do it tactfully. But before,
• 39:38
  nah, but yeah, you don't, you don't have to instantly close
• 39:46
  all bridges. Sometimes people don't know what they do, and
• 39:53
  because, you know, we're all learning, you know. And just
• 39:58
  have a. Chiller temperament towards everything. Don't, don't
• 40:02
  make decisions based off your ego. Because if you for
• 40:06
  instance, let's just say, let me give an example. Me, you I do a
• 40:09
  photo shoot of you, right? And you're an up and coming tycoon
• 40:14
  business owner, right? And I get this amazing portrait of you,
• 40:18
  and you just run and post it everywhere you might use it to
• 40:22
  make billboards and just all kinds of stuff, right? The
• 40:29
  younger version of me would be saying, you know, hey, I need to
• 40:33
  get paid like right now. Now, the older version of me would
• 40:38
  knows how to use soft skills and leverage that into something
• 40:42
  else. Just like, Hey, man, I'm really happy that that's a
• 40:45
  successful photo that's tight, and you can try to, like, oh
• 40:50
  yeah, man, appreciate it, you know. And that's before I would
• 40:55
  have took that like, you know, play me to the side. Hell no. I
• 41:01
  need some money. I need to get paid. No, I would just leverage
• 41:06
  it into something, you know, hey, I don't know if you know,
• 41:10
  but you've wronged me here. Instead of making this a thing,
• 41:13
  what can we do so that I'm righted? Yeah, put me. Make good
• 41:19
  with me. Make good with me, yeah, and I'm being a man, and
• 41:23
  I'm telling you that you've wronged me, you know. So most
• 41:27
  people, once they know that they've wronged you, they'll try
• 41:31
  to make it right. In my instance, I did that part, and
• 41:35
  they tried to make it right, but I still was just being
• 41:39
  egotistical, and just
• 41:42
  Casey Fatchett: was like, Yeah, I think that there was a, I
• 41:46
  mean, I tended to be it different side, like, because
• 41:48
  I'm from the Midwest, and we're like, I'm a people pleaser. And
• 41:51
  it's always like, oh, you know, like, oh, well, like, I'm sorry.
• 41:55
  Like, what? What do we need to do? Like, and I would have
• 41:58
  corporate clients who we would agree on net 30 or, you know,
• 42:03
  net 60 or whatever, and then the money didn't show up when they
• 42:07
  said I was going to, and I'm like, and I'd be reaching out
• 42:09
  and be like, hey, you know, I know sometimes it's hard for the
• 42:12
  money to, like, be like, getting that first time for payments to
• 42:16
  come through. Like, it can be difficult processing that stuff
• 42:19
  and being understanding whatever, and then just, like,
• 42:22
  getting no response, and I'd be like, Oh, it's me. They hate me,
• 42:25
  whatever, and just sort of like, you know, making it about what's
• 42:30
  going on in my head, and like, if they don't respect me, or
• 42:34
  whatever, the reason I gotta come up with, instead of being
• 42:36
  like, at that point, I needed to be more forceful and be like,
• 42:39
  Hey, what's going on? Like, we had a contract, like, and now
• 42:44
  you're, like, cutting off communication, and then it
• 42:49
  helped it my wife is in, like, the legal field. Like, she,
• 42:53
  like, she sort of, like, we get to points, I'd say, like, this
• 42:55
  is what happened. And be like, like, new No, you don't need
• 42:58
  this is what you need to say. These are the things you need to
• 43:01
  say, like, this was in the contract and coming up with,
• 43:03
  like, a firm line, but yeah, like, there were other times
• 43:06
  where I would come back and say that, like, Oh, hey, disorder,
• 43:09
  and people would be like, Oh, we're so sorry. Like, in trying
• 43:11
  to make it up, instead of being angry about what was done, they
• 43:17
  came back and were like, oh, let's make it right, you know,
• 43:19
  let's, let's, let's do this like that. We're sorry that this
• 43:22
  happened because they're dealing with 900 other people, you know,
• 43:26
  in their in their payment, you know, system and you know you
• 43:31
  are just one of hundreds of people they're paying. And to
• 43:36
  understand that that like, that's also having is good,
• 43:38
  like, but also there's got to be a line that you draw and be
• 43:43
  like, Hey, listen, you're not you're taking advantage of me at
• 43:47
  this point. Like, I wish I had learned that sooner. I think
• 43:50
  that was, that was a skill that I could have learned earlier.
• 43:53
  I'm going
• 43:54
  Fred Agho: to give the listeners a trick one. If you're in your
• 44:00
  early 20s. You don't have that many friends that are lawyers.
• 44:03
  Yet it's coming. Once you get about 2526 2728 you will have a
• 44:10
  lawyer in your circle. Okay, well, this is what you do. You
• 44:15
  ask the lawyer. You can say, and this is what I'm telling you,
• 44:19
  what it might cost you. You You can ask the lawyer to look over
• 44:22
  the contract you're looking at on the low end, two to 300
• 44:26
  bucks, and this is your friend, yeah, okay. Or you can read over
• 44:30
  the contract and know where you're right and wrong. Okay,
• 44:35
  right. Then you say, hey, lawyer friend, I just want to include
• 44:40
  you in the email. That's it. That's all. That's it. And I
• 44:45
  want to say, XYZ. Are you okay with that? And how much would
• 44:49
  that cost? And you'll be surprised. Some lawyer friends
• 44:52
  will say free. Some lawyer friends say, hey, send me 100
• 44:55
  bucks. Some lawyers say 200 bucks. But that escalates. Is
• 45:00
  the crap out of emails. I mean, everything. It's really fast.
• 45:05
  But like I said, you won't have this liberty or privilege until
• 45:11
  you get to a certain age and have actual lawyer friends in
• 45:14
  your circle that will be okay with being in an email. If you
• 45:17
  do that with some random lawyer somewhere, they
• 45:19
  Casey Fatchett: will, yeah, don't go to your local Facebook
• 45:21
  group and be like, Hey, who's a lawyer here that I could talk to
• 45:25
  you. It's, it's one of those lessons that I mean, or just
• 45:29
  make friends with a lawyer. Like, fine, find somebody to
• 45:34
  make friends with them. It helped me a lot. Like, both
• 45:37
  because my wife was familiar with the law and like, she would
• 45:40
  give me pointers, but she would also be like, well, you can just
• 45:45
  CC me on your next communique with them. And just be like, it
• 45:50
  works, not saying anything, but can I tell you what that ended
• 45:56
  any number of disputes just because, oh, you're involving
• 46:00
  somebody else who is at a law firm in this conversation, like
• 46:06
  one, I'm serious about this,
• 46:08
  Unknown: but one time I had to do it said, Hey, and this is who
• 46:12
  my lawyer that I've retained. And if we can't resolve this at
• 46:16
  XYZ, I will no longer be communicating with you, and they
• 46:20
  will be, yeah, and 99 I don't know what for me. I'm 100% right
• 46:27
  now. I don't know what about you. Got paid. I got paid.
• 46:32
  Casey Fatchett: I mean, I got paid. And then there's another
• 46:35
  time where I was like, they had taken one of my photos. This is
• 46:38
  a, this is a publishing company who had was starting a dating
• 46:47
  website that was focused on New York City, and they took a photo
• 46:51
  that I had off my website of a couple, like kissing on the
• 46:55
  Brooklyn Bridge, and made it their like hero image on their
• 47:00
  website. And somebody else who knew me was like, Hey, man, did
• 47:08
  you like this is, I mean, how much did you get paid for this?
• 47:11
  And I was like, What do you mean? Because he was on the he
• 47:13
  was like, gonna, like, sign up for the site. And he's like, I
• 47:15
  know this is your photo. And I was like, what? And I went and I
• 47:20
  sent them an email and said, like, Hey, what's going on? This
• 47:23
  needs to come down a you don't have my permission. We don't
• 47:27
  have the permission to the couple, like, there's a lot
• 47:29
  going on here. That is wrong. I'm not getting paid for this is
• 47:35
  one of those things. And I said, you need to, and they're like,
• 47:38
  and they I got this response that was, oh, an intern just
• 47:42
  like, pulled that, whatever, thought that. Again, the old
• 47:45
  adage of it's on the internet, we must be able to just use it
• 47:49
  because it's you posted it somewhere on the internet.
• 47:53
  Fred Agho: Another pointer, guys, if you're going to use
• 47:55
  anything to make money, make sure you pay whoever you're
• 47:59
  going to it involves you making money, yeah, someone probably
• 48:04
  needs to get paid, right?
• 48:05
  Casey Fatchett: And I was like, yeah, that doesn't, yeah, that
• 48:09
  doesn't make this go away. And they're like, Well, I don't
• 48:12
  know. And I was just like, I did the same thing. Like, just see
• 48:15
  seeing on the email, like, well, if we have to escalate this, you
• 48:20
  know it will. But like you need to take it down immediately, and
• 48:22
  then we need to discuss compensation. For you having
• 48:25
  used it, because I don't know how long it's been up, but
• 48:29
  you've been using it, I know how much a copyright infringement
• 48:35
  case will cost you, but let's talk about compensation. And I
• 48:39
  did get paid. And you know, for them using it, I'm sure that
• 48:43
  intern got fired, even though probably wasn't really their
• 48:46
  fault, like somebody looked over that and said, Yeah, sure, let's
• 48:48
  go with it, and didn't ask to get clearance.
• 48:52
  Unknown: And they might have, and they might have not known
• 48:54
  and learned the hard way. And that's, that's, that's part of
• 48:59
  that's
• 48:59
  Casey Fatchett: a whole other lesson that people need to learn
• 49:01
  again. I've been seeing it again. It again on threads a lot
• 49:05
  is people saying like, Oh, you posted it to the internet.
• 49:08
  People can use it like, no, no, that's not how copyright works.
• 49:14
  There's a photographer here in New York who constantly gets his
• 49:21
  work stolen by like aggregator accounts and people and like has
• 49:26
  his watermark like probably eight times in each photo, and
• 49:33
  people will email him or message, DM him on Instagram and
• 49:36
  say, Hey, can you take your watermark off These photos so
• 49:40
  that we can post that to is that? Is that okay with you? If
• 49:44
  we just, like, if you could, because it's gonna look weird
• 49:47
  with your name all over it when we post it to our account, like
• 49:52
  the goals, unmitigated goal.
• 49:55
  Fred Agho: Do you think they don't know? Or I think.
• 50:00
  Casey Fatchett: Think that they think that if anything is posted
• 50:02
  on the internet, it is fair game, because, like, somebody,
• 50:04
  like, he was posting it, and can you believe this? And somebody
• 50:07
  responded in the the like, commented and said, Oh, well,
• 50:10
  you know, you're cop. There's not a thing that says copyright
• 50:13
  your name, so it's not copyrighted. Like, that's not
• 50:18
  how copyright law works.
• 50:19
  Fred Agho: Buddy, embedded in the file, yeah, like, they
• 50:23
  don't.
• 50:23
  Casey Fatchett: There's just, like, there's a real
• 50:25
  misunderstanding about intellectual property, and I
• 50:31
  think the more photographers know about it and can educate
• 50:34
  people, the better we off we would be.
• 50:36
  Fred Agho: There's an actual website where you can go and do
• 50:39
  all your copywriting on what I tell everybody, just, if you
• 50:45
  have, like, a photo, that's a banger, yeah, do it real quick,
• 50:48
  right? But, I mean everything,
• 50:53
  Casey Fatchett: everything is automatically, but, yes, the
• 50:55
  ones that you think like, people are gonna want to use that like,
• 50:58
  that's those are the ones.
• 51:00
  Fred Agho: And you'll know to you'll post it on social media
• 51:04
  and 10,000 likes later, yeah, go. Because what you understand
• 51:11
  is that that photo is just now, it's
• 51:13
  Casey Fatchett: taken on olives, yeah.
• 51:16
  Fred Agho: And when you have one like that, and it might not even
• 51:20
  be a photo with 10,000 likes. It might be on a blog that it's a
• 51:24
  really strong photo, and you get, I don't know, 1000 views on
• 51:28
  that blog. Anytime you get a large amount of traffic for
• 51:32
  something that you put on the internet, go copyright it, and
• 51:38
  please, if you have the time, put the website. It's an actual
• 51:41
  website that people can go and check it out and see how much
• 51:45
  does it cost? Again, I haven't
• 51:46
  Casey Fatchett: done it. I think that the
• 51:49
  Fred Agho: group of photos, 50 photos at a time. Yeah, I
• 51:53
  Casey Fatchett: think it's 50. And I think it's like, maybe,
• 51:55
  like 10 bucks a piece, something like that, or maybe more. Oh,
• 51:59
  no, you.
• 52:00
  Fred Agho: I You. I think you pay like, a fee for the session
• 52:03
  of photos that you put in. I don't think it's per photo.
• 52:06
  Casey Fatchett: It's not, oh, it's been a long while. Yeah,
• 52:10
  that means we need to go out there. I'll go out and find it.
• 52:12
  You know what? I'm gonna put all that information in the Episode
• 52:15
  Notes. I won't put that link in there so that people can just
• 52:19
  click on the Episode Notes for this episode, and you know,
• 52:21
  you'll take it
• 52:21
  Fred Agho: where you want to go. It's an actual US government
• 52:24
  website. It's not like some crack pipe type thing, actual
• 52:29
  government website. You're going to go on there, and you'll have
• 52:33
  the file name, and you'll put it on there, and the name of the
• 52:37
  you have to give the piece a name, so whatever you have to
• 52:42
  title it, actually title it, yeah, and you put it in there,
• 52:45
  and then you pay for the fee, and then you'll get a copyright
• 52:47
  and they'll mail it to you, and you'll have a physical and the
• 52:52
  email can't remember. I haven't had a photo that crazy, maybe
• 52:58
  two, three years that I have been doing, yeah, it's been
• 53:01
  about,
• 53:03
  Casey Fatchett: it's been a little longer for me since I've,
• 53:05
  like, used that, but yeah, like, I think I decided I'm like, Oh,
• 53:10
  here's like, 30 photos I'm gonna definitely knock out and make
• 53:15
  sure that I've got the official because it's like, there's this
• 53:19
  whole thing, like, you automatically have a copyright
• 53:21
  on it, that if you register it individually, like, specifically
• 53:25
  with the copyright office, you have much better so that
• 53:29
  listeners understand you will have a much easier time fighting
• 53:33
  that copyright case if you've sent it in and like,
• 53:36
  specifically registered that individual piece.
• 53:41
  Fred Agho: So, yeah. So, yeah. You can, like, Capture One
• 53:45
  Lightroom, Adobe Bridge photos. No, not. I don't know about
• 53:51
  Photoshop, but those other ones that I listed, you can go put
• 53:55
  your copyright information in there. You can actually even put
• 53:57
  your copyright information in your camera. I know what
• 53:59
  Fujitsu. You're able to put your copyright info in there to the
• 54:03
  point where it's your name and website for sure. So those are
• 54:10
  ways that you can copyright it, right? But what we're talking
• 54:14
  about is actually copywriting it with the United States
• 54:17
  government. So if any situations come up legality wise, there's
• 54:22
  no talking, right?
• 54:24
  Casey Fatchett: You just say, like, Hey, here's the document
• 54:28
  that says this is, yeah, here's the government document saying
• 54:33
  this is registered with the copyright office, and that will
• 54:37
  end conversations pretty quickly, because it's like a
• 54:41
  $250,000 fine per instance, or like a reward per instance, is
• 54:48
  like the the maximum I think you get. It's interesting. We did a
• 54:55
  episode on copyright infringement, where they hid. Is
• 55:00
  there's like, a fair use that people always talk about, like,
• 55:04
  well, what's fair use of things? And there's, trust me, like,
• 55:07
  fair use is not, like, I'm gonna go out and make a make money off
• 55:10
  this. So somebody's making money off your photo. That's not that
• 55:14
  is commercial usage of your, of your image. So that's what, like
• 55:19
  we were saying before you're like, somebody's making money
• 55:21
  out of it. Somebody's got to
• 55:22
  Fred Agho: Yeah, you got to get paid. You take a photo of Jimmy,
• 55:26
  boy, Jim, and he's like, Man, I'm handsome in this photo.
• 55:31
  We're gonna go plaster this all over the place to start my rap
• 55:36
  career. And and he's showing this, and he puts it on tickets,
• 55:41
  he puts it on posters, it's on his website. And these are all
• 55:46
  mechanisms in which he's getting, you know, making you or
• 55:51
  he should pay you. Yes, he doesn't. You are entitled to
• 55:55
  some compensation.
• 55:57
  Casey Fatchett: Yes, this is also why we should have signed
• 56:00
  agreements, like a contract on the front end. This is why you
• 56:04
  go out and get a contract and then give it the like, I just
• 56:09
  sent two of them out today to clients saying, like, Hey, this
• 56:12
  is just like, spells out. What you can use these images for?
• 56:15
  Yeah, you can use it on social media. Yeah. You can use it as
• 56:19
  like, you know, in a newsletter or something like that. What you
• 56:22
  can't use it like you said, I'm going to put this on a poster
• 56:24
  and sell it. No, you can't. You got to pay me extra. There's got
• 56:27
  to be a licensing fee for that. Or things like, you know, like
• 56:30
  anything you're, you're this is usually like, putting it on
• 56:34
  packaging or anything like that. Like this is becoming when I
• 56:39
  used to do more musician photos, there's always a discussion of
• 56:44
  like, okay, yes, you can use this to promote yourself. You
• 56:47
  can put on your website. I have no problem with that. That's
• 56:52
  included in the fee that you paid me putting it on your
• 56:54
  website. If you put it on your CD cover, or you use it as the
• 56:58
  album artwork for your mp three, or whatever, your EP, whatever,
• 57:04
  then it that's a whole other thing. You're selling it. Now
• 57:07
  you're selling my, my work,
• 57:10
  Fred Agho: yep, yep. So yeah. And then you want to go down all
• 57:19
  the instance we can talk about different instances where people
• 57:22
  need to, man, I feel like we're giving out so much, right?
• 57:27
  Casey Fatchett: This is a treasure trove of
• 57:30
  Fred Agho: y'all are getting it for real, because usually, when
• 57:33
  you know the podcast, sometimes we, you know, we can get into
• 57:37
  banter that doesn't really, you know, it gives you the reference
• 57:42
  of our mind and things like that, but we're not giving you
• 57:45
  the actual things. Let's be fair.
• 57:47
  Casey Fatchett: We were talking about barbecue for a while. Yes,
• 57:49
  we were.
• 57:51
  Fred Agho: So let's see, friend, let's situations in which you
• 57:57
  should have a contract. You can use them at all. Literally, you
• 58:00
  can, you can, you know, have a contract if you're going to go
• 58:03
  shoot an event. But I think model releases are really big. I
• 58:09
  think you those are you need to do that anytime you're dealing
• 58:13
  with the business. I think you should have a contract and
• 58:16
  nothing crazy, just, you know, agree, deliverables. Agreed time
• 58:22
  to deliver. And, you know, just and usage and usage, and then
• 58:29
  what happens if they don't pay you when they say they're going
• 58:32
  to pay you? And what happens if you don't deliver when you say
• 58:35
  you're going to deliver? Right? It's literally what you can come
• 58:39
  up with. And that's pretty much all you need. Oh, and then
• 58:43
  expenses, some unforeseen expenses, come up. Like, so if
• 58:48
  you come to the event and you gotta pay for parking in the
• 58:55
  contract, you need to let them know, like, Hey, I will any
• 58:59
  unforeseen expenses will be passed on to you, right?
• 59:03
  Casey Fatchett: Like, if you told me, I get to park for free,
• 59:05
  yeah, if you told me, I get to park free, but you I don't get
• 59:09
  to park for free, then I'm gonna, like, bill you for the
• 59:11
  parking like, that sort of thing is you're including in there.
• 59:15
  And it can be, like, a very simple like you said, like one
• 59:18
  page. It doesn't have to be super complicated. Like, you
• 59:21
  spell out the things like, and you mentioned model releases,
• 59:26
  and it's, you're protecting both sides here with the like, think
• 59:30
  of it like a contract, or an agreement is something that
• 59:34
  protects both you and your subject or your client. Like,
• 59:37
  that's the thing of people going, Oh, I don't want to sign
• 59:39
  a contract. Or I don't want to sign something. Like, it's
• 59:42
  protecting them and you, like you said it, that covers when
• 59:45
  you're supposed to deliver, what you're supposed to deliver, and
• 59:48
  what happens if you don't deliver it on time, as well as,
• 59:51
  like, I always bring it up to because sometimes, like,
• 59:55
  corporate clients will be like, Oh, this is just like, a two
• 59:58
  hour event. You know? Know they were having you come in for I'm
• 1:00:01
  like, Yeah, but I need to, like, I need to cover my ass make sure
• 1:00:07
  I get paid. I gotta make sure that I'm giving you. I'm gonna
• 1:00:10
  make sure I'm giving you what you want. Yeah, and that we've
• 1:00:14
  also spelled out that you're getting the usage rights that
• 1:00:17
  you need for these images.
• 1:00:22
  Fred Agho: Then, you know, with weddings, that's more about
• 1:00:26
  deliverables and retainer and stipulations of the day. Oh man,
• 1:00:33
  those are that's you should definitely
• 1:00:35
  Casey Fatchett: do. You should definitely have a contract for
• 1:00:38
  Fred Agho: I've had weddings that cancel. I've had weddings
• 1:00:42
  that moved and increased my expenses, but they wanted it to
• 1:00:46
  keep it the, you know, the pay the same, right? I was like,
• 1:00:51
  right here says if I have to drive this far or more, you
• 1:00:55
  know, let's see. So model releases, contracts with all
• 1:00:59
  businesses, retainer clients. I think you should also have so
• 1:01:03
  because you'll have clients that will come in retainer, and let's
• 1:01:08
  just say that the content that you're making for them isn't,
• 1:01:12
  you know, knocking it out the park like they wanted to. They
• 1:01:17
  want to bail early and right? No, we're assigned to this to
• 1:01:21
  this many things?
• 1:01:23
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, that's something I should have learned
• 1:01:25
  to do. Like, I had a, what was supposed to be a recurring
• 1:01:31
  corporate head shot gig, and they told me, like, Oh, we're
• 1:01:34
  gonna have you come in and do, like, headshots for 50 people
• 1:01:38
  every month for the next year. And I was like, Okay, well, we
• 1:01:43
  got through like, three of them, and then they decided to go with
• 1:01:45
  somebody cheaper. I knew what they what, what happened? And
• 1:01:48
  they're just like, Oh, yeah. I'm like, oh, but we, you know, we
• 1:01:50
  had this agreement. And they're like, there's nothing we signed
• 1:01:55
  that said that we have to use you for all, like, the whole
• 1:01:57
  year. And I'm like, that's on me too, for, like, not having
• 1:02:02
  something, you know, there that could, that could come back to
• 1:02:05
  and be like, No, you actually, this is what you agreed you have
• 1:02:08
  to,
• 1:02:09
  Fred Agho: yeah, some type of protections, yeah, so contracts
• 1:02:13
  your friend. So copywriting, your friend contracts, your
• 1:02:16
  friend barbecue in Texas, your friend you do
• 1:02:27
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• 1:03:54
  Hey, now for my favorite part of the show, what's that? Say?
• 1:04:00
  Useless information, this is always death,
• 1:04:07
  true or false. John Wayne was offered a lead role in Blazing Saddles.
• 1:04:18
  Fred Agho: False,
• 1:04:19
  Casey Fatchett: true. I knew it. Yes, he was. He was offered a a
• 1:04:24
  role. It doesn't say what, in my book, it doesn't say what role
• 1:04:29
  it was. I'm guessing it's the sheriff. I'm guessing it. It's
• 1:04:34
  what's his name, not sheriff. The Slim Pickens.
• 1:04:41
  Fred Agho: I don't even remember the movie.
• 1:04:43
  Casey Fatchett: Somebody go back and get a shitload of dimes.
• 1:04:48
  That guy, Lepetomaine Freeway,
• 1:04:55
  Fred Agho: it's not clicking. It's now, when we get off the
• 1:04:57
  internet, I'm going to go down. A rabbit hole.
• 1:05:02
  Casey Fatchett: You'll know I'm talking about the guy with he's
• 1:05:04
  in Dr Strangelove. He's the one who like rides the bomb down. I
• 1:05:08
  know John Wayne is no, no, no, no, the guy who was in Blazing
• 1:05:12
  Saddles. I think I'm guessing that that's the person who said
• 1:05:16
  he should have been. Yeah, I'm guessing that that was the
• 1:05:19
  character that they that Mel Brooks offered him, Yeah,
• 1:05:24
  apparently he said no, but that he was really excited to see the
• 1:05:27
  movie. Watching you type it in,
• 1:05:34
  Fred Agho: yes, yes, he did.
• 1:05:41
  I thought he would have been Gene Wilder.
• 1:05:47
  Casey Fatchett: No, I'm thinking he would have been Slim Pickens,
• 1:05:51
  who's will come in whooping in a whaling
• 1:05:58
  Fred Agho: okay, I know exactly. Okay. I see it with the stash.
• 1:06:01
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that's the character that John
• 1:06:04
  Wayne would have played if they're offering
• 1:06:07
  Fred Agho: him to be in the movie. Yeah, that's my guess.
• 1:06:12
  That's funny. I'm gonna go into a deeper I'm actually gonna
• 1:06:15
  probably end up watching the movie now.
• 1:06:16
  Casey Fatchett: Thanks. They used to play that movie on like
• 1:06:19
  Saturday afternoon, regular TV. And I was like, what I can't
• 1:06:26
  imagine now that like, what the decision making process there
• 1:06:29
  was
• 1:06:30
  Fred Agho: So is that what kids think about Martin now, when
• 1:06:33
  Martin's on TV, maybe people so colorful. Fred.
• 1:06:42
  Casey Fatchett: Thank you so much for coming out. I really,
• 1:06:46
  really had a blast talking to you. You're welcome to come back
• 1:06:50
  anytime you want. Where can people find you? On the
• 1:06:52
  interwebs and the social media?
• 1:06:54
  Fred Agho: Yes, on the internet, you can do the IG thing. It's my
• 1:06:58
  name, which is Fred. Last Name, A, G, H O, I also have a
• 1:07:03
  website, WW, dot, Fuji, F, U, j, i, f, R, E, d.com, and then also
• 1:07:10
  have another website, which is w, w, dot, Fred, dot, A, G, H
• 1:07:15
  o.com, you're looking around. Can that hear me?
• 1:07:18
  Casey Fatchett: I can hear you. I'm just looking. I was like,
• 1:07:21
  I've got, I've got this stuff up. I've got it all on my in the
• 1:07:25
  background of my my computer. And I'm, what I was going to say
• 1:07:29
  is I'm going to put all those links also in the Episode Notes,
• 1:07:32
  so people can go right there and find a lot of slack.
• 1:07:36
  Fred Agho: Twitter, red, A, G, H, O, underscore
• 1:07:42
  Casey Fatchett: you can find for you're still on Twitter. I don't
• 1:07:46
  know. I'm sorry, on X, I still call it Twitter, the platform
• 1:07:51
  formerly known as Twitter,
• 1:07:54
  Fred Agho: just make it a symbol.
• 1:07:57
  Casey Fatchett: That's all I did. That's all I did. That's
• 1:08:00
  all I did. He just made it a symbol.
• 1:08:09
  And welcome back. Many thanks to Fred ago for being on the show.
• 1:08:15
  I really enjoyed our conversation, and I'm definitely
• 1:08:19
  in the mood for barbecue right now. You can find Fred's links
• 1:08:25
  in the Episode Notes. Get in there and follow him. You won't
• 1:08:30
  be disappointed while you're clicking those follow buttons,
• 1:08:35
  be sure to subscribe to the show and follow along with the nerdy
• 1:08:41
  photographer on social media. At the nerdy photo. That's at the
• 1:08:46
  nerdy photo, no dots, underscores or dashes on
• 1:08:50
  Instagram, blue sky threads, tick tock and Reddit. You don't
• 1:08:56
  want to miss out on all the discussions and things that go
• 1:09:01
  on between episodes. There's a lot of stuff. There's, like, fun
• 1:09:06
  memes, there's, you know, tutorials, lots of stuff, snug,
• 1:09:11
  too much heat, snog. I don't know what you're talking about
• 1:09:16
  until next time, stay safe and stay nerdy