Latest / The Retail Podcast / How Dr Wills revolutionary ketchup is challenging a $18.9 Billion industry

Transcript

How Dr Wills revolutionary ketchup is challenging a $18.9 Billion industry · The Retail Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome back to the Retail Podcast.
• 0:02
  Now today we're going to take a slight detour from our
• 0:06
  traditional focus on retail technology and what's going on
• 0:10
  in the world of retail customer experience data and AI and
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  actually look at product. I'm joined by Liam White, Doctor
• 0:17
  Wills who Liam is the CEO of and cofounder of a basically
• 0:23
  condiment business. But they're probably one of the
• 0:26
  fastest growing condom in businesses in the UK, if not the
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  fastest growing. And they are already available
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  in grocers such as Tesco's. But this isn't about condiments,
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  this is about our lives, about sugar, about sustainability,
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  about B Corp. But Liam, before we get into all
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  of that, I'd love to sort of unpack who you are, how you got
• 0:47
  here and actually to help us what what I'm doing, we're
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  launching a retail news website and it's retail news dot A I and
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  it'll be launched somewhere in the summer.
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  And what what we're doing is using obviously A I to produce
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  the content 10 and all the other things.
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  So I asked the A I to give me a view of you.
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  So I'm hoping this is in in light.
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  So let me read it to you. And actually the first part
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  talks about Doctor Wills, UK's first all natural condiment
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  brand. And this is Liam, the cofounder
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  and CEO of Doctor Wills introduced the brand as a maker
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  of naturally sweet and delicious products that demonstrate
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  superiority of natural sugar sources over artificial
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  alternatives. And actually really topical
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  because that was in the news this week with one of the major
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  beverage companies being infected with the use of the
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  artificial sweetener and one of their products.
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  But let's get down to who you are.
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  Sorry I got it wrong. It's available at Tesco's
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  Waitrose, Ocado, Holland and Barra and independent farm shops
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  and delis up and down the countries there you are.
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  Liam's professional background includes JPMorgan McKenzie,
• 1:54
  Credit Suisse, Rothschild and A and a testimonial on your page
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  braces Liam passion for his days like it's funny.
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  But anyway, your passion in in bringing innovative and healthy
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  products to market. So how do you go from banking to
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  making a a better eating environment for the UK
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  population? Yeah, it's probably not the most
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  traditional journey. Interestingly, there's a
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  surprising number of like ex investment banking food founders
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  in the UK. I've come across a handful when
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  I've been at kind of, you know, networking events and things
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  like that. So although it sounds like a
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  very odd, nontraditional journey, there are a few others
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  doing it. And yeah, I started my career
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  after a series of internships at JP Morgan.
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  Unanimous there in investment banking, which is pretty.
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  Tough working environment, You work really hard, lots of hours
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  and yeah, like really interesting place to work.
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  But I quickly realized that I was quite entrepreneurial.
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  I've always had aspirations to run my own business and I also
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  like working in kind of larger companies is quite hierarchical
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  and it takes a long time to kind of work your way up.
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  And I wanted to kind of move a bit quicker than that if I
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  could. My mom is a food writer, so
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  there's some personal inspiration there.
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  And so it kind of grew up like surrounded by lots of good food
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  and interested in interested in what's on the supermarket
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  shelves but also in kind of restaurants and kind of end of
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  the TIF cuisine. And then, yeah, a couple of
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  years into the bank journey, I met Will and Josh, who are my
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  business partners, who had the idea for essentially A healthier
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  range of condiments. So.
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  We were looking looking at the the market and seeing that
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  everything was was getting healthier.
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  So if you look at snacks we were going from crisp and chocolate
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  to protein bars and popcorn and you know graze with nuts things
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  like that. And then there was also this
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  whole craft scene that was going wild.
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  So craft beers and like, you know, gin distilleries popping
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  up all over the place, Fever Tree doing an amazing job with
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  the mixers and we just kind of realized that, you know, people
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  were trying to make that plate as healthy as possible.
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  But we're sort of unaware of just, you know, they're adding
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  the same source, same condiments they've added for years and
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  years and often they're loaded with sugar.
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  And we just thought we could do a better job, but equally use
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  the best quality ingredients and make them really, really tasty
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  at the same time. Because that's, you know, that's
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  that's the purpose of a condiment.
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  And that was the air back in 2017 when we started our journey
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  and and I assume you're still your Forbes 30 under 30, you're
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  still under 30. I'm 30, so thankfully,
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  thankfully you keep it even when you were.
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  When you get there, they don't. They don't just say, well,
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  actually, no, I'm 30 and 30 anyway.
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  I was 28 when I got it. Yeah, OK, all right.
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  That explains it. If you were being able to go
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  back to younger self and have a chat with him to help him get to
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  where you are now, what would you like to say to him?
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  What would you say to him? Yeah, I think.
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  I think you often get really caught up in the minutia of your
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  of your day today and you know problems that are absolutely
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  problems and things that have, you know, big challenges for you
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  at that time, you know undoubtedly will get solved and
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  when you kind of zoom out, I think you know.
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  So as you get hung up on quite small things and I think I would
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  just try and just enjoy every, you know, each, each phase of my
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  life and you know, everybody. Says to, you know when you're at
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  university somewhere a few years old, it says, you know these
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  might be the best in your life. Enjoy them and all that kind of
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  stuff. And you sort of listen to them
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  and sort of not a long ago and you really taken that stuff.
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  And I think I would just, yeah try and try and listen to listen
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  to that advice as much as possible and just, you know like
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  just enjoy every stage of the journey for what it is and yeah,
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  not get, not get too hung up on kind of where you're headed and
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  things like that. I think if you know if you work
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  hard and you have a, you have a bit of a plan.
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  You know, those things can can fall into place.
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  And I think, yeah, I think lots of us are sometimes like too
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  guilty of being like really, really obsessed with you know,
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  obsessed with. With.
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  Yeah, for sure. Definitely in terms of putting
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  that in terms of and obviously you're just 30, right.
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  So I don't want to like, you know, the guest that I just
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  recorded an interview with was obviously in his 50s.
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  And so you know there's there's that journey and I think it's
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  important to to to reflect on that it is a journey that people
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  are on. But I'm curious from a from a
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  business perspective raising capital, doing everything, what
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  are the lessons that you've learned because you've done the,
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  the, the biggest, you've jumped that biggest hurdle you funded,
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  you're in shops, you had to go through so much pain to get to
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  that. Well, what for you?
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  Were those major milestones or hurdles that you have to get
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  over? Yeah.
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  And that's not to say that there's not another new set of
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  hurdles that you've got to. Get over.
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  Yeah. No there that there will be for
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  sure. I think something my, you know I
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  was guilty in the early stages of so I'd have I speak to my FD
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  quite a lot who's been more experienced and has now he's
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  he's in his 50s not if not 60s and as you know seen a lot more
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  than I have and and I'd say I just need to get through this
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  stage and then we'll be OK and he'd say we do need to get
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  through this stage but then there'll be another challenge
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  and he's absolutely right you know you can you think that you
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  know. You've got the only challenges
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  now, but there will be different and bigger challenges in the
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  future I think. Yeah, if you break it down, I
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  think launching the product at the very start will be the first
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  thing. So finding a manufacturer and
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  then creating a commercially available product, I guess
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  finding manufactured in the Where is the product
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  manufactured? Yeah, in the UK.
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  So, yeah, about an hour and a half outside London, obviously
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  there. So, yeah, all in the UK, yeah,
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  getting up on it made raising funds I'd say.
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  And then getting on to sort of launching initially into Daddy's
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  and farm shops and kind of smaller retailers.
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  Then getting into a few kind of prestigious places like
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  Selfridges that really kind of start to open doors for us.
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  And then going on to the start to work with the big growth
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  that's like Tesco, Waitrose, Ocado, those kind of guys.
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  I mean those are, yeah, those are some of the steps but
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  there's been you know millions on the journey, lots of you
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  know, building our product range.
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  So starting from basically ketchup and BBQ sauce at the
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  start through to a much fuller range of products now that span
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  kind of catch up mayonnaise, hot sauce, dressings.
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  So yeah, it's been you know, tons of learnings and tons of
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  like little miles stands along the way.
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  I think it's important to celebrate those because you
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  know, you're always going to have more challenges, whatever
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  stage you're at, and you've got to kind of celebrate the wins as
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  you go and it's all too easy to. You know, achieve something that
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  you have been working on for ages and, you know, maybe a
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  month or a year ago you'd have been over the moon to have
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  achieved that. And you can get it kind of drawn
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  into the next, you know, just the next challenge and often
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  forget that that's true in terms of the culture that you're
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  building. Obviously, I've watched one of
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  the adverts that you've got out there and it's very sort of, you
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  know, fun in that sense. As CEO, what type of culture are
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  you looking to build? Yeah, it's really important to
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  us to have a like a fun culture and trying to build a brand that
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  people want to, you know, people want to buy and but also the
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  people want to work for. So we just try and be quite
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  modern with how we do things. So I mean we've got you can look
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  at, look at our brand and you know we're the only guys that
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  have pink ketchup. We have a massive exclamation
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  mark in front of the bottle and you know, it's sleek and we try.
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  We're trying to make a beautiful brand, but at the same time
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  we're trying to do things a bit differently.
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  And we're pretty unashamed about that and we want and you know,
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  we This is just, there you go and catch it.
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  Yeah, exactly. And like the kind of the reason
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  for that is we were, you know, looking at ketchup, which is
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  ubiquitous product. Lots of people are pretty much
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  sleepwalking down the supermarket aisle to go and grab
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  their favorite brand of ketchup that they've bought for years
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  and years or to buy a supermarket and enable product.
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  And we have to stand out. So everybody has a pretty much a
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  white label and we decided to do.
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  To do a the pink label and the exclamation mark is is all
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  around kind of like stop and think think both about kind of
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  sugar but also about your condiments that quality about
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  you know extendability everything which is that big
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  kind of exclamation mark And then we use the different the
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  different point on every products and we've got the
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  tomato and the ketchup and then you know an egg for the
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  mayonnaise and then things like that chilly on the on the hot
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  sauce and so you know trying to keep it fun and playful but have
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  something that people want to you know want to have on the
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  table and then from a culture point of view in the business.
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  Yeah, we just, you know, we're just normal people and I think
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  like there's so much formality in in, in, in business that you
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  know some of it is required but some of it really isn't.
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  So we just have you know honest conversations with people.
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  We try and just you know treat people like people and and just
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  have a you know pretty try and be pretty as straightforward as
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  you can be trust people to you know to to get the work done and
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  and not be you know not be too over there.
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  Yeah, I I got you. One of the things that was
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  really interesting in terms of. Your your approach you obviously
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  you're you're a young company but you went for B certification
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  already how and I know there's a lot of green washing that
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  happens. What's your honest take in terms
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  of the sustainability elements and how how?
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  Because I noticed again on the website and I'll, I'll, I'll
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  bring it up about recycling and and and being.
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  I'm just curious about how that measures within your part of
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  your culture and the organization.
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  Yeah, definitely. So it's really important to us.
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  So we decided quite early to to go for certification to become a
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  B Corp because I think it's a B Pop essentially is a commitment
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  to to Better Business. So you're you're committing to,
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  you know we're absolutely a forprofit business.
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  We're not, you know we're not charity, but you're committing
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  to balance profits, profits and purpose.
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  So you're, you know, you're not forgoing one for the other and
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  essentially it's a commitment from our side to do everything.
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  To try and do Better Business and sustainability is 1 angle of
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  it, but it's also you know doing right by your, by your customers
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  and by your staff and that kind of anchors every decision we
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  make in the business. And then from a sustainability
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  point of view, you're absolutely right, there is a lot of
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  greenwashing out there. So we just try and and to be
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  clear, we're far from perfect. It's a journey that we're on and
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  we've made. I think we've done some things
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  really well. There's lots of like small
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  things that we're that that that layer up and I'm a big believer
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  in that, you know that's it's quite rare that there's like a
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  silver bullet that kind of. You know, fixes everything, but
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  quite often it's just this, it's like a series of good choices.
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  So we just try and we use glass, but for a lot of our products
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  and then we also use, we use squeezy like plastic squeezy
• 12:38
  bottle, but we've ensured that it's, you know, fully
• 12:40
  recyclable. The lids, the lids are also
• 12:45
  recyclable. We're moving to labels.
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  They can all go in the same recycling streams.
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  We just try to do just try to make all the right choices from
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  like a packaging point of view. So like trying to figure out you
• 12:56
  know what's the next thing cuz there the stuff that we have now
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  is really good for what is on the market, but also we're
• 13:03
  looking at kind of big innovation is there, you know
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  things like sugar cane packaging and there's also interesting
• 13:08
  things out there. So we're, you know, we're
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  absolutely keeping abreast of all of that stuff and trying to
• 13:12
  make sure that yeah we can we can.
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  We just always think ahead with with sustainability and trying
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  to, yeah, trying to have the, you know, a robust like
• 13:21
  sustainability sustainable supply chain.
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  What surprised you when you were going through the creation?
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  Cuz I'm noticing you guys did some research in terms of how
• 13:29
  much sugar was in other products and the impact your source of
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  sugar is through dates only Or do you use other sources of
• 13:37
  sweetness? Yeah, so dates primarily.
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  So if you take ketchup for example.
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  You like all the there's there's a bit of sugar in in tomato for
• 13:47
  example. So you get you you'll get a
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  little bit of the sugar will come from like a tomato or from
• 13:51
  an onion you know like natural sauces but they all come from
• 13:53
  natural fruit sources. So yeah, we've used, we have
• 13:57
  used the Garvey as well like in our sweet chili product but they
• 14:01
  all we try and use natural natural sugar sauces.
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  So it's basically dates and tomatoes where the where the
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  sweetness comes from in our ketchup and then just use less
• 14:08
  of it. That's the other thing.
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  So it's it's one thing to use natural sugars but also we just
• 14:12
  try and use like. A sensible amount.
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  So I think you know you you mentioned sugar crime, look at
• 14:17
  BBQ sauce and I'm not going to mention any particular brand
• 14:21
  because it's pretty much across the board like there are you
• 14:25
  know if you turn turn the product around like frequently
• 14:27
  there are products that have 50% sugar, 35% sugar, 40% sugar and
• 14:31
  it's just you don't need that much sugar.
• 14:33
  And if you think about it, if you put like you know, serving a
• 14:35
  decent a few dollars to catch them might be, you know, 3040
• 14:38
  grams, 20 grams of sugar and it's just, you know, it's not.
• 14:42
  Yeah. Then you have a few more dollops
• 14:44
  and like you're not far of a can of Coke, but you know, if you
• 14:47
  have a can of Coke, at least you kind of, you know, you're
• 14:49
  constantly making a decision to have a sugary beverage, right.
• 14:52
  Whereas it's kind of, it's sort of hidden in a source.
• 14:53
  So that's the kids. That's the thing that gets me
• 14:56
  into that. And you know, two boys I am
• 15:01
  constantly, especially with ketchup because that's the
• 15:04
  example you guys used. Or Doctor Willa, who's an actual
• 15:07
  doctor, The users that you know, he was using ketchup on the
• 15:11
  vegetables, where I think all parrots do.
• 15:13
  And then all of a sudden you look at the label and it's not
• 15:16
  only the E Forget the sugar, I can live with sugar.
• 15:18
  It's all the E numbers that then are.
• 15:21
  Following the the things and you're like, oh man, especially
• 15:24
  in cereals. But that.
• 15:25
  Again, I know you're not in cereal business, but there's got
• 15:28
  to be a better way. There's got to be another way,
• 15:32
  yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.
• 15:34
  Yeah. It's.
• 15:35
  And that's what we're trying to do like it's it's you know, we
• 15:37
  keep it really simple. So we use you know, we use dates
• 15:39
  rather than like lots of like white refined sugar and then we
• 15:42
  just just less of it. And in doing that we think you
• 15:45
  know, there's still some sweetness in the product.
• 15:46
  Absolutely. That's a key part of of of the
• 15:48
  flavor. And I think you could, you know,
• 15:50
  you could absolutely make like a 0 calorie, 0 sugar kind of
• 15:53
  product, but you know, pretty wouldn't get pretty, wouldn't
• 15:56
  get very far. There are some on the market,
• 15:57
  but people are people are used to.
• 15:58
  You know when you have a catch up, you want to have some
• 16:00
  sweetness. You want to have some.
• 16:01
  So with that sort of vinegary, that vinegary punch you want to
• 16:05
  sell things like that. So we absolutely have those
• 16:07
  things. We're just trying to have it in
• 16:08
  sensible quantities and then just use the best quality
• 16:10
  ingredients. So I think if you look at, you
• 16:12
  know, if you look at our product, you turn the
• 16:14
  background, everything that's in there are things that you'd have
• 16:18
  in your kitchen. So it's you know, to like if you
• 16:20
  look at our ketchup ingredients, it's like tomatoes, onions,
• 16:23
  dates, spices, that kind of thing.
• 16:25
  And then, yeah, and it's just, it's just trying to use like,
• 16:28
  you know, good quality, simple ingredients and not.
• 16:30
  Had out our products with, you know, lots of gums and
• 16:33
  thickeners and like you said, any numbers, preservatives, all
• 16:36
  that stuff. You just you just don't need it.
• 16:38
  Like you know, with a with a product that just has tomatoes,
• 16:42
  dates and some vinegar and a little bit of salt, you get
• 16:43
  plenty of shelf life. There isn't any need to to fill
• 16:46
  them with, you know, preservatives that you can't,
• 16:49
  you can't recognize. Have you cracked the nuts of
• 16:54
  making people care? Because I think that's one thing
• 16:56
  lots of brand companies play on is the fact that the inertia of
• 17:01
  of change and making that change.
• 17:03
  I'm just curious from your research or from the work that
• 17:06
  you've done making that a topic that's important, which it is
• 17:11
  for people's health and the consumer, Is there a secret or
• 17:16
  is there a way of of bringing that to life?
• 17:20
  Is a great question, I think. Have we cracked them?
• 17:22
  Not I think. We are getting people to care.
• 17:25
  I think we need to get lots more people to care.
• 17:27
  So we're on that journey. I think lots of people really
• 17:30
  resonate with our brand and and stay you know, they want a
• 17:33
  healthier option, but equally they want great tasting
• 17:35
  condiments. And I think what we're trying to
• 17:36
  do is not compromise. So I think if you do compromise,
• 17:39
  yeah again and and we were guilty of this at the start.
• 17:42
  We were trying to make, you know the a product that was so low in
• 17:45
  sugar that it didn't deliver on flavor and it tasted, you know,
• 17:50
  too different and and. You know didn't didn't quite
• 17:53
  have the balance that you expect in a in a catch up.
• 17:55
  Now we've got to a stage where we have products that really do
• 17:58
  deliver in their own right. Like we're not saying they're
• 18:01
  good for healthy catch up. Like these are like our products
• 18:03
  are delicious and they, you know, they've won great taste
• 18:06
  awards and I'm really passionate about making products that just
• 18:08
  taste great and always happen to be healthier.
• 18:10
  I'm curious on where you go from here, Liam, in terms you've had
• 18:13
  so much success, but there's so much more to do in terms of
• 18:17
  growth of the company. What's what's top of mind for
• 18:21
  you? Is that the the, the key driver
• 18:23
  for the next sort of 18 to 12 months for you?
• 18:26
  I think yeah we're we're a few years in but we're we're very
• 18:31
  much on this on this path to to try and disrupt that the the
• 18:35
  economist industry. So we we're at stage, we're in
• 18:39
  lots of the kind of major retailers in the UK in
• 18:41
  particular and we also export to a few markets around the world
• 18:44
  and now the next challenge for us is just taking on.
• 18:47
  You know scanning up to to the next level and taking on some of
• 18:50
  these these big brands that have been around for years and years
• 18:53
  and just trying to essentially offer you know a healthier but
• 18:57
  but great tasting product to more people.
• 19:00
  So it's kind of scaling up that that you know distribution but
• 19:03
  also just a when so trying to get our product out to as many
• 19:07
  people as as as we possibly can and we know that you know when
• 19:10
  people try our products they love them.
• 19:11
  So the big challenge is, is getting them into you know into
• 19:15
  many people's hands and their mouths as possible.
• 19:17
  Yeah, I'm I'm as I keep going back to as a father this makes
• 19:22
  so much sense for me. It just takes away the the the
• 19:26
  guilt and pain of not giving them what they want, but giving
• 19:28
  them what they want with something that's that's better
• 19:31
  for them To really great. To find a passionate group of
• 19:35
  people that genuinely want to change the way that we eat for
• 19:39
  better and who also care about the world and environment that
• 19:43
  they live in and and we live in as well.
• 19:45
  I think these are really important sort of pillars if you
• 19:48
  like, of Business Today Liam, With all of that I want to thank
• 19:52
  you for giving up your time and where can people find out more
• 19:55
  about your business? Are you on all the social
• 19:58
  channels? Yeah, on all the social
• 20:00
  channels. So our website, Dr. Wills WILL
• 20:04
  f.com, Instagram at Doctor, DOCTOR, under score, Wills,
• 20:09
  Wilf, and then yeah, that's kind of where you can.
• 20:12
  Find us right I need to see at the moment.
• 20:16
  Yes. Yeah, we do.
• 20:17
  So you can buy our products on our website, Okay.
• 20:19
  Cool. Yeah, we're on Amazon as well.
• 20:21
  And then in the UK, lots of retailers and also in sort of
• 20:25
  select parts of Europe, Middle East, Asia as well.
• 20:28
  That's fantastic. Liam.
• 20:29
  Thank you so much. Thanks very much, Alex.
• 20:32
  Thanks.