Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Leadership, Red Flags, and Toxicity in the Workplace with Susanna Kislenko

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Leadership, Red Flags, and Toxicity in the Workplace with Susanna Kislenko · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:08
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
0:12
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
0:15
Speaker 1: pretty This is pretty smart. Hello. Hello, So last week
0:23
Speaker 1: I told you that I was going to tell you
0:25
Speaker 1: this week about the story behind the Question Everything card game,
0:30
Speaker 1: and it's a very personal story to me. So I'm
0:33
Speaker 1: going to tell you that, and then we're going to
0:35
Speaker 1: jump into our episode today, which is all about leadership
0:39
Speaker 1: and toxic work cultures and how to spot red flags.
0:43
Speaker 1: It's really interesting. But first, Question Everything, fifty two cards
0:47
Speaker 1: for Deeper Conversation was born like this. So, as you
0:52
Speaker 1: guys know, I have studied and practiced the art of
0:55
Speaker 1: conversation for over a decade, and when I reflected on
0:59
Speaker 1: it all, this is what I found to be true.
1:01
Speaker 1: The most interesting thing is to be interested, and you
1:06
Speaker 1: hold that power. So when I moved to La I
1:09
Speaker 1: was living in my grandmother's friend's garage. When I was
1:13
Speaker 1: twenty two, I had eight thousand dollars in my bank account,
1:16
Speaker 1: and I was hustling to get jobs and find people
1:19
Speaker 1: to interview, and I eventually had a foothold in the
1:26
Speaker 1: broadcast world that I so desperately wanted to be a
1:29
Speaker 1: part of and make a mark on. I got a
1:31
Speaker 1: call that I had been waiting for years later. It
1:35
Speaker 1: was for a network that I had always wanted to
1:37
Speaker 1: work for. I got hired. I was the youngest person
1:40
Speaker 1: they had hired, and I felt like all of the
1:43
Speaker 1: hustle and the sacrifices and the late nights, it was
1:46
Speaker 1: all going to pay off in this moment. This is
1:48
Speaker 1: why I moved to La to Land, this sort of
1:51
Speaker 1: dream job. Well, I got there and it wasn't quite that,
1:56
Speaker 1: and after fourish four or five months I quit. I
2:01
Speaker 1: was unemployed and kind of depressed and living off my
2:04
Speaker 1: credit cards, which was just so much anxiety, and I
2:07
Speaker 1: decided I was going to try and make use of
2:09
Speaker 1: my downtime. While I was trying to get a new job.
2:13
Speaker 1: I started writing down a list of all the people
2:15
Speaker 1: I wanted to interview, and then a corresponding list of
2:18
Speaker 1: all the questions I wanted to ask them. It added
2:20
Speaker 1: up to about one thousand and one questions. I think
2:24
Speaker 1: I still have the Google doc. So during one of
2:27
Speaker 1: these days, I had a friend call me and he said,
2:30
Speaker 1: you seem so depressed lately. I have a surprise for you.
2:33
Speaker 1: Be ready tomorrow morning at six am. Put your put hair, like,
2:37
Speaker 1: get hair and makeup ready. And I was like, at
2:39
Speaker 1: six am, I don't want to have makeup on at
2:41
Speaker 1: six am, but I listened. I woke up the next day,
2:46
Speaker 1: put my hair and makeup on, and walked into Nate
2:49
Speaker 1: Now's Deli in Beverly Hills. And when I walked in,
2:53
Speaker 1: there was Larry King. He was sitting there with five
2:57
Speaker 1: or six of his childhood friends and I had so
3:00
Speaker 1: many questions for him, but I didn't get to ask
3:03
Speaker 1: him one question during that breakfast because he had so
3:06
Speaker 1: many questions for me. He was insatiably curious what's the
3:11
Speaker 1: obsession with the smartphone and the Kardashians. He wanted to
3:16
Speaker 1: know what young people were thinking about. So at the
3:19
Speaker 1: end of breakfast, I said, Larry, I have to come
3:22
Speaker 1: back for breakfast because I didn't get to ask you
3:24
Speaker 1: any questions. And he said, don't you have a job,
3:26
Speaker 1: And I said, well, not really, not right now, and
3:29
Speaker 1: he said, well, you're welcome anytime. And that's how breakfast
3:33
Speaker 1: with Larry started. So during this time when I would
3:36
Speaker 1: have breakfast with Larry I obviously went home inspired and
3:41
Speaker 1: I started looking at those questions from that Google doc.
3:45
Speaker 1: And that's when I made a discovery about myself that
3:48
Speaker 1: would change the way that I live, love, and work.
3:53
Speaker 1: I had never asked myself any questions. Here. I was
3:56
Speaker 1: making a career out of asking questions, and I never
3:59
Speaker 1: thought to ask myself a single one. Since I had
4:02
Speaker 1: a little time on my hands, I decided to explore
4:05
Speaker 1: this new epiphany, and for the next eight months that
4:08
Speaker 1: I was unemployed, I asked myself questions every single day.
4:13
Speaker 1: From that list, I became a different girl. What I
4:17
Speaker 1: discovered is that we are our most important audience. I
4:21
Speaker 1: don't know if you remember Maria Shriver's interview. I'm pretty smart,
4:24
Speaker 1: but at the end, I always ask rapid fire questions,
4:28
Speaker 1: and I ask everybody what book changed their life? What
4:31
Speaker 1: book do you think everybody should read? And Maria said,
4:35
Speaker 1: it's important to read, but it's even more important to
4:37
Speaker 1: write your own story. And I thought that was one
4:41
Speaker 1: of the most powerful answers we've heard on the pod.
4:45
Speaker 1: We're consuming information so much that sometimes we forget we
4:49
Speaker 1: need to write our own story. Ask ourselves the questions.
4:53
Speaker 1: So once I started practicing this, I got to know
4:56
Speaker 1: myself a lot more deeply. And once I did that,
5:01
Speaker 1: I was way more interesting at dinners with friends. I
5:04
Speaker 1: was more skilled at asking questions. I was more confident
5:06
Speaker 1: in conversation, and my relationships completely changed because we often
5:11
Speaker 1: forget to ask the people closest to us the big questions.
5:16
Speaker 1: When I asked my friends and my parents' thoughtful questions,
5:19
Speaker 1: they felt seen and heard and cared for. I saw
5:23
Speaker 1: it in their face, and I felt them in some way.
5:27
Speaker 1: I kind of felt like my questions were a gift
5:29
Speaker 1: to them, and it worked. With strangers, I could feel
5:33
Speaker 1: that they were more drawn to me. It was such
5:35
Speaker 1: a shift, and it felt powerful. My questions were lifting
5:40
Speaker 1: people's spirits. So once I realized that my questions were powerful,
5:45
Speaker 1: like literally my superpower, I wanted everyone to tap into this.
5:50
Speaker 1: You know, some people's superpowers are not universal, like basketball players.
5:55
Speaker 1: I'm five to one, I'm most likely not going to
5:57
Speaker 1: be able to tap in to that gift. But questions.
6:02
Speaker 1: Everybody can tap into this, And that's why I created
6:06
Speaker 1: the card game fifty two Questions for deeper conversation, Question everything.
6:12
Speaker 1: Because if my life could change from asking questions, I
6:15
Speaker 1: knew that everybody could. You know, it's not a coincidence
6:18
Speaker 1: that some of the most revolutionary companies in America are
6:21
Speaker 1: founded on the importance of questions. Eric Schmidt, the CEO
6:25
Speaker 1: of Google, said, we run this company on questions, not answers.
6:29
Speaker 1: Apple they train their genius bar experts in the Socratic method,
6:33
Speaker 1: which is basically answering a question with a question. Nike, Netflix, Airbnb, Amazon,
6:39
Speaker 1: their founders have all spoken about their success fueled by
6:43
Speaker 1: the ability to ask fundamental, game changing questions. You know,
6:47
Speaker 1: a lot of us come to books or podcasts like
6:50
Speaker 1: this because we're searching. I'm searching. We all are really
6:55
Speaker 1: am I in the right relationship? Is this the right
6:57
Speaker 1: job for me? Should I be communicating differently? Am I
7:01
Speaker 1: really living my purpose? Is there something I can do
7:04
Speaker 1: to live a healthier life? But here's the cheat code
7:08
Speaker 1: to all of it. We are constantly focusing on answers,
7:13
Speaker 1: but the answers only come when we ask the right questions.
7:17
Speaker 1: So that's really it. Question everything will help build any relationship.
7:23
Speaker 1: It's been a game changer in my life. And for
7:26
Speaker 1: those of you who have the card game, I've heard
7:29
Speaker 1: from so many of you it seems to be like
7:31
Speaker 1: a really game changing tool in yours too. You know,
7:35
Speaker 1: I had one person on Instagram voice don't me and
7:38
Speaker 1: say I was engaged for five years to this guy
7:42
Speaker 1: and we broke up, and I started dating a new
7:45
Speaker 1: guy long distance, and so I sent him the card
7:47
Speaker 1: game and we pull a card every night. We've been
7:50
Speaker 1: doing it for the past few months, and I feel
7:52
Speaker 1: like I know him better than I ever knew my
7:55
Speaker 1: fiance that I was with for five years. So it
8:00
Speaker 1: really is a power in asking deep, meaningful questions. So
8:05
Speaker 1: now it is time to get into our podcast today.
8:11
Speaker 1: There's a reason why so many of us can't get
8:14
Speaker 1: enough of workplace comedies and dramas. Sometimes they feel like
8:18
Speaker 1: one and the same, from the office to the Devilwar's Prada.
8:24
Speaker 1: We love to hate a bad boss. They make a
8:27
Speaker 1: perfect villain. Not to mention, sometimes in real life they
8:30
Speaker 1: are actually villains. There's a whole genre of media for
8:34
Speaker 1: that too. We've seen it play out across news, pop culture,
8:40
Speaker 1: but also in our own lives. I've personally experienced both
8:44
Speaker 1: great leadership and a horrible lack of leadership. And once
8:50
Speaker 1: you experience a great leader, you understand the detriment that
8:55
Speaker 1: bad leadership does to a group, a community, a company,
9:00
Speaker 1: and you really see what great leadership can do to
9:03
Speaker 1: up level everybody's life and experience at work. Simply put,
9:09
Speaker 1: your boss can really make or break your experience at work. So,
9:13
Speaker 1: after having been in the work world for probably about
9:17
Speaker 1: fifteen years, I thought to myself, why is bad leadership
9:21
Speaker 1: so pervasive? I can imagine you listening to this and
9:26
Speaker 1: knowing exactly what I'm talking about. Between April and September
9:29
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one, more than twenty four million American
9:33
Speaker 1: employees left their jobs, an all time record, and an
9:37
Speaker 1: MIT study found that what employees defined as toxic work
9:40
Speaker 1: culture was the main force driving what became known as
9:43
Speaker 1: the Great Resignation. Well, our guest today is doctor Susanna Kislanko,
9:49
Speaker 1: a social psychologist who studies leadership. She's currently the Skull
9:53
Speaker 1: Center Postdoctoral Fellow Leading for Impact at the Skull Center
9:58
Speaker 1: for Social Entrepreneurship at the University of Oxford. She says
10:02
Speaker 1: her work pulls back the curtain on challenges and the
10:05
Speaker 1: potentially darker consequences of bad leadership. Because the thing is,
10:11
Speaker 1: our society doesn't necessarily train people how to lead, but
10:15
Speaker 1: why isn't there a playbook? And if there was, would
10:19
Speaker 1: work be better for us all? Today? Doctor Kaslanko is
10:23
Speaker 1: going to help us level up our work lives and
10:26
Speaker 1: be able to spot those red flags. Susannah, you are
10:35
Speaker 1: a social psychologist and you focus on leadership. How did
10:39
Speaker 1: you become inspired by leaders and can you talk about
10:44
Speaker 1: a time that leadership has played a key role in
10:46
Speaker 1: your life.
10:47
Speaker 2: I remember when I was in high school, I had
10:50
Speaker 2: a big poster Glenny Kravitz's still Now And I remember
10:54
Speaker 2: having a little thing that I picked up somewhere that
10:56
Speaker 2: said leadership, Who's going to do it? Or something? So
11:01
Speaker 2: I think it has been in my mind for a
11:02
Speaker 2: long time. And I spent the first part of my
11:06
Speaker 2: career in leadership roles in the nonprofit sector in Canada,
11:11
Speaker 2: and so I learned. I mean, I had a business
11:13
Speaker 2: undergrad but I really learned, I think in that experience.
11:16
Speaker 2: And I think that was really when I saw that
11:19
Speaker 2: leadership is a spectrum, that there can be great leaders
11:22
Speaker 2: and there can be less great leaders and everything in between.
11:26
Speaker 2: And then eventually I was so obsessed with the topic
11:29
Speaker 2: that I went to do a PhD in organizational behavior.
11:34
Speaker 1: There are so many personality tests on the internet. I
11:37
Speaker 1: think the one that I heard about first when I
11:39
Speaker 1: moved to LA was Meyers Briggs, but there's a ton
11:42
Speaker 1: of different ones. Now, how do you determine somebody's leadership style?
11:46
Speaker 2: You know, I love Myers Briggs as well, and I
11:49
Speaker 2: still use it, and I think it's good just to
11:51
Speaker 2: know the introvert extrovert parts. I think, especially when we
11:55
Speaker 2: live in a world where extroverts are so sort of
11:58
Speaker 2: put in a pedestal, and if one is more of
12:00
Speaker 2: an introvert, you know, it's it's harder to know where
12:03
Speaker 2: to place yourself. But the way I usually assess people,
12:06
Speaker 2: and I do this in my leadership retreats as well,
12:09
Speaker 2: and when I coach people is actually I ask them
12:12
Speaker 2: to do a highly sensitive person test first, because I
12:17
Speaker 2: think it's really important in this day and age to
12:19
Speaker 2: understand that because highly sensitive people and highly sensitive leaders
12:24
Speaker 2: have unique gifts.
12:26
Speaker 1: And I'm so curious about a highly sensitive person. From
12:29
Speaker 1: what I know, a highly sensitive person, it's not just emotional,
12:32
Speaker 1: but like audio levels affect them more, smells can affect
12:36
Speaker 1: them more. What is it? What do you see it as?
12:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've come to understand in the last few
12:42
Speaker 2: years as much deeper than that. So and I now
12:45
Speaker 2: understand myself as a highly sensitive person after taking the
12:48
Speaker 2: tests and understanding it. Essentially, I think those of us
12:52
Speaker 2: that are sort of like highly sensitive, as we pick
12:54
Speaker 2: up on way more than the obvious. So I used
12:58
Speaker 2: to think everybody noticed what I I noticed. That means
13:02
Speaker 2: people's emotions, that means a certain like change in someone's
13:06
Speaker 2: energy level or something of that nature. And then when
13:09
Speaker 2: I came to understand this concept, I now know that's
13:12
Speaker 2: not the case, and those of us that are highly
13:15
Speaker 2: sensitive can be incredible leaders. And you know, to be honest,
13:21
Speaker 2: having that gift is really useful for me in my
13:23
Speaker 2: research because I'm a qualitative researcher and I do interviews,
13:26
Speaker 2: so I always have to read between the lines in
13:29
Speaker 2: a way you do as well. So there's certain gifts.
13:32
Speaker 2: But the flip side of it is that we're always
13:34
Speaker 2: picking up on a lot of information, and so if
13:37
Speaker 2: we don't find ways to organize that information or sometimes
13:40
Speaker 2: protect ourselves literally in that, it can be really daunting
13:44
Speaker 2: and it can be exhausting.
13:46
Speaker 1: If you determine a leader's leadership style and then you
13:50
Speaker 1: test their employees and their personalities clash. Is there ever
13:57
Speaker 1: a way to work in harmony or some do you
14:00
Speaker 1: need to find a new job.
14:02
Speaker 2: Of course, there's a way to work in harmony. And
14:04
Speaker 2: I think part of it is just like any relationship, right,
14:07
Speaker 2: the love languages, right, So it's kind of like when
14:11
Speaker 2: you understand someone's love language, you know how to interact
14:14
Speaker 2: with them, and you know how to make them feel good,
14:17
Speaker 2: even if it's not your thing of feeling good. I
14:20
Speaker 2: think everything comes down to understanding the other person and
14:23
Speaker 2: understanding that we're not all the same.
14:25
Speaker 1: So one of the things I was really interested to
14:28
Speaker 1: learn is that you have also been a yoga teacher
14:31
Speaker 1: for twenty years, which now makes sense that you're a
14:34
Speaker 1: highly sensitive person and your leadership retreats incorporate yoga. So
14:39
Speaker 1: what have you learned about the importance between the connection
14:43
Speaker 1: of the mind and the body.
14:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I started Queen Bee Retreats in twenty nineteen
14:50
Speaker 2: with the idea of sort of integrating everything I have
14:52
Speaker 2: learned and all the things I wish I knew when
14:55
Speaker 2: I was informal leadership roles, and I today cannot think
15:00
Speaker 2: a way that the two are not connected. So much
15:02
Speaker 2: of leadership is just holding space for the group or
15:05
Speaker 2: for other people. But think about where you have to
15:09
Speaker 2: be internally to hold space for others and make them
15:12
Speaker 2: feel safe. Right, So you need to have your outlets.
15:16
Speaker 2: You need to be able to connect with your body
15:19
Speaker 2: and even understand what's going on in your body to
15:22
Speaker 2: be able to be fully present and set the space.
15:27
Speaker 2: I mean, for example, like in preparation for our coll
15:29
Speaker 2: just now, I was just sitting here literally going through
15:32
Speaker 2: my chakras, putting my ground in cord like I really
15:35
Speaker 2: because I want to show up as as my full self.
15:38
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of leadership is like that too.
15:43
Speaker 1: That's cool to hear. I think that through your work,
15:46
Speaker 1: you've obviously ended up interviewing a lot of employees. What
15:51
Speaker 1: are the top three complaints you hear about their jobs?
15:57
Speaker 2: Yeah? Great question, a lot because some of what I
16:03
Speaker 2: focus on is toxic founder run organizations. That's some of
16:07
Speaker 2: my research.
16:08
Speaker 1: We're going to get all that.
16:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll tell you the number one thing I think
16:12
Speaker 2: I hear is people feeling like they can't express themselves
16:18
Speaker 2: fully and show up as their full selves and that
16:21
Speaker 2: it's not safe to be their full self, which obviously
16:24
Speaker 2: partially is related to psychological safety. But I think the
16:27
Speaker 2: other part is I go because a lot of the
16:30
Speaker 2: organizations I study are mission driven, and a lot of
16:33
Speaker 2: the time people say, I just want to show up
16:36
Speaker 2: and contribute to the mission and do my best, but
16:39
Speaker 2: the conditions in the organization are not set up for that,
16:42
Speaker 2: and so I just feel frustrated. And so what that
16:47
Speaker 2: means is then it stifles everything else because it stifles
16:50
Speaker 2: people's creativity, right, it stifles everything. And yeah, I think
16:55
Speaker 2: the biggest thing is feeling safe.
16:58
Speaker 1: What makes somebody feel safe at work?
16:59
Speaker 2: Would you say, yeah, I think it's different for everyone
17:03
Speaker 2: as a whole. But I think leader of a team
17:08
Speaker 2: creates conditions so that people can express ideas even if
17:11
Speaker 2: they feel like they might make a mistake or it
17:14
Speaker 2: might not be the right thing, or the leader might
17:16
Speaker 2: not like it or something like that. So I think
17:18
Speaker 2: it's about understanding what do people need to not censor
17:25
Speaker 2: themselves and showing people that they won't be punished if
17:30
Speaker 2: they do show up as their whole self.
17:32
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So it's not just feeling like they can
17:35
Speaker 1: make mistakes. Because that was the BuzzFeed model and it
17:38
Speaker 1: worked really well for a while. They gave people a
17:41
Speaker 1: ton of runway. All their creators, they said, just make shows.
17:44
Speaker 1: If they flop, they flop, But a lot of them
17:47
Speaker 1: turned into hits. But you're saying that you're allowing people
17:52
Speaker 1: to show up as their full selves. I think minorities
17:56
Speaker 1: and women have a hard time with that.
17:59
Speaker 2: Yes, Ding, ding Ding. I don't know the full spectrum
18:03
Speaker 2: or all the layers of the bus feed model, but
18:05
Speaker 2: I understand exactly what you're saying. I think a lot
18:07
Speaker 2: of that has to do with breeding innovation, right, like
18:09
Speaker 2: leaving space for innovation, and I think that is related
18:12
Speaker 2: to safety. But it's not exactly the same thing. When
18:15
Speaker 2: we think about what happened over the pandemic, where so
18:19
Speaker 2: many people started to feel safe for showing up as
18:22
Speaker 2: themselves as you said, women, minorities, all kinds of other groups.
18:26
Speaker 2: And why was that. It's because people stopped giving a shit.
18:31
Speaker 2: Do you know. People were like, we're in this context
18:35
Speaker 2: where there are way more important things than following the
18:39
Speaker 2: corporate line or whatever it might be, and so people
18:42
Speaker 2: started feeling more free to be themselves in It was
18:44
Speaker 2: very interesting because some leaders embrace that and encourage that,
18:49
Speaker 2: and we're just like, you know, they were thriving themselves
18:51
Speaker 2: that were happy to have their employees thrive. I create
18:54
Speaker 2: leadership with parenting and with teaching. I think they're all
18:59
Speaker 2: the same thing in many ways, because what you are
19:02
Speaker 2: doing is showing up to be of service to the
19:05
Speaker 2: people to feel safe.
19:06
Speaker 1: Are there types of bad bosses?
19:08
Speaker 2: I think a bad boss is often someone who's in
19:13
Speaker 2: it for themselves, right like back to leadership, like back
19:17
Speaker 2: to the concept. If we believe that leadership is being
19:21
Speaker 2: of service and creating a safe space or just creating
19:24
Speaker 2: or holding space, then sometimes the bad bosses are the
19:29
Speaker 2: ones who not only don't hold space, but don't care
19:32
Speaker 2: to and are not thinking like that at all.
19:35
Speaker 1: What would you say the biggest distinction is between a
19:37
Speaker 1: good boss and a bad boss.
19:41
Speaker 2: So the safety thing that we spoke about, I think
19:43
Speaker 2: would be definitely up there. I think another thing is
19:48
Speaker 2: someone showing up as fully human, so.
19:52
Speaker 1: Right like just like I mean, like showing their own
19:54
Speaker 1: flaws exactly.
19:56
Speaker 2: So I had a meeting recently with the professor. I
19:59
Speaker 2: work very closely with that Oxford and her and I
20:03
Speaker 2: do have we work together for six or seven years,
20:05
Speaker 2: so we do have a very like quite open relationship
20:07
Speaker 2: and the other day literally this week, we had a
20:10
Speaker 2: call and right as we entered the call, she was like,
20:13
Speaker 2: I just want you to know I'm fully drained. There's
20:16
Speaker 2: a situation, you know, at the office right now. And
20:19
Speaker 2: it's like I knew the context, and she was like,
20:22
Speaker 2: I just want you to know how I'm showing up
20:24
Speaker 2: right now. I'm like, you know, I'm not at my
20:27
Speaker 2: full capacity. And she didn't have to share with that
20:30
Speaker 2: with me. And I'm not saying that everyone has to
20:32
Speaker 2: but there, but what it did was it made me
20:36
Speaker 2: first of all being pathic, but also be like okay,
20:40
Speaker 2: got it, Like I know what space we're in here.
20:43
Speaker 1: What do you think is the difference between a good
20:45
Speaker 1: leader and a great leader.
20:46
Speaker 2: I think the difference between a good leader and a
20:48
Speaker 2: great leader is if beyond making people feel safe or
20:55
Speaker 2: making someone feel safe, they genuinely care about the person's
21:02
Speaker 2: trajectory and their growth and are genuinely not just like
21:08
Speaker 2: a superficial mentor, but genuinely like, how can I make
21:14
Speaker 2: this person's path a little easier? What challenge can I
21:17
Speaker 2: give them? But a challenge that's going to be growth
21:19
Speaker 2: filled that they're you know that they're going to engage with.
21:23
Speaker 2: Do I really understand what their goals are. I think
21:25
Speaker 2: that's a critical one, you know, when I coach people,
21:29
Speaker 2: Like I'm thinking of a couple of calls I had
21:31
Speaker 2: recently a couple of coaching calls where their boss, who
21:36
Speaker 2: in one way had the best intentions, gave them a
21:39
Speaker 2: promotion that without asking them, that they thought the person
21:45
Speaker 2: wanted because it would move them up higher or something
21:49
Speaker 2: in put them in a category in that corporation that
21:53
Speaker 2: he himself wanted that he himself thought was great. And
21:58
Speaker 2: the person is like, but I didn't want it, that
22:01
Speaker 2: wasn't even that goal of mine. Like, in fact, this
22:04
Speaker 2: is stressful for me. In conversation with that person, I
22:06
Speaker 2: was like, why didn't he just ask you what really
22:12
Speaker 2: your goals are? Yeah, and then act accordingly.
22:16
Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about toxic leadership in a bit,
22:19
Speaker 1: but I first want to talk about what great leadership means.
22:23
Speaker 1: Are there specific figures and politics and business and pop
22:26
Speaker 1: culture that really inspire you?
22:29
Speaker 2: Yes, so many, most of them are women. I would say,
22:33
Speaker 2: first of all, the former Prime Minister of New Zealand
22:36
Speaker 2: jsin Arden is incredible. I think what a great example
22:39
Speaker 2: of showing up whole showing up as a real person,
22:42
Speaker 2: showing up as a whole woman all the things. Since
22:45
Speaker 2: I was in high school, maybe even before, I've had
22:48
Speaker 2: two women that I really have always admired because of
22:52
Speaker 2: how they show up, which I also consider leadership. One
22:55
Speaker 2: is Sophia larn and one is Joni Mitchell, and I
23:01
Speaker 2: think both, in their own spheres, have showed up whole
23:08
Speaker 2: and yeah, unapologetically. I think the people I love the
23:12
Speaker 2: leaders I admire both show up unapologetically as themselves and
23:17
Speaker 2: are deeply compassionate for the people they work with.
23:26
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Speaker 1: getting dressed be one less thing to worry about. I recently,
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Speaker 1: oh you know what, I watched it on CNN, Anderson
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Speaker 1: Cooper was interviewing this woman who said, we focused too
26:16
Speaker 1: much on who somebody is once they're in a position,
26:19
Speaker 1: and not who they were getting there, because she felt like,
26:23
Speaker 1: in order to determine what type of leader someone will be,
26:26
Speaker 1: just look at how they led on their way there. Fascinating. Yeah,
26:32
Speaker 1: I have her, and I like Kamala Harris, but from
26:35
Speaker 1: all my friends in politics, her whole campaign to become
26:40
Speaker 1: VP was in the inside world of politics, had a
26:46
Speaker 1: lot of problems with her leadership style, which I found
26:51
Speaker 1: fascinating because you didn't see that publicly.
26:54
Speaker 2: Uh huh, maybe you did.
26:56
Speaker 1: I didn't.
26:57
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, no no, I didn't at all.
26:59
Speaker 2: No no, no, I never yeah, yeah, no, no, no,
27:02
Speaker 2: I didn't. I wondered because she's beings so great outwardly,
27:05
Speaker 2: so I wondered. I have a few thoughts on what
27:08
Speaker 2: you heard on CNN. I agree with it to an extent.
27:10
Speaker 2: I think that people really grow. Yes, I think that's
27:13
Speaker 2: a really important thing. Like I think that looking at
27:15
Speaker 2: who I'll just speak for myself. If you look at
27:18
Speaker 2: my and myself in leadership roles a decade ago versus now,
27:24
Speaker 2: I am a different leader because I have I have
27:26
Speaker 2: done a lot of self work and understanding of this.
27:29
Speaker 2: But I do think what you said is very very
27:32
Speaker 2: important with relation to It's like the same thing people
27:36
Speaker 2: say that when you go on a date, look how
27:40
Speaker 2: the other person treats the people around them, right, the
27:44
Speaker 2: service staff or whoever.
27:45
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever heard that, right Well,
27:46
Speaker 1: I always ask, like, how they broke up with their
27:49
Speaker 1: last girlfriend, oh, because it's usually how they're going to
27:51
Speaker 1: break up with you, and within that.
27:55
Speaker 2: How are they speaking about their ex right? So to me,
27:59
Speaker 2: all of that is an extension of how are you
28:01
Speaker 2: treating people? And I do think another measure is are
28:08
Speaker 2: people keeping people in their lives after they've left workplace.
28:13
Speaker 2: I'm not saying you have to be bff, not at all.
28:17
Speaker 1: But right, did you burn the boats?
28:20
Speaker 2: I mean that would be if you think about it,
28:22
Speaker 2: especially I been there, if you've been somewhere a while, ye, right, Like,
28:25
Speaker 2: I'm not saying you have to be bff with your
28:28
Speaker 2: with your boss or whatever it might be, but if
28:30
Speaker 2: you don't have any connections that are workplace connections from
28:35
Speaker 2: the past, I would say that's a thing to look at.
28:39
Speaker 2: To me, that is about sort of like showing a
28:41
Speaker 2: pole and showing up human as an employee.
28:44
Speaker 1: Do you think there are red flags to look out
28:46
Speaker 1: for when you're interviewing at places, because I think now
28:49
Speaker 1: more than ever, people are starting to feel like, Okay,
28:52
Speaker 1: you're interviewing me, but I'm also interviewing you when it
28:56
Speaker 1: comes to communication leadership. What are things to look out for?
29:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, because I have been so vocal for
29:06
Speaker 2: so long about bad bosses in essence and that we
29:10
Speaker 2: don't have to put up with toxic workplaces and all that.
29:14
Speaker 2: People that are close to me, I often here's a
29:18
Speaker 2: text message I often get from someone. They're like, I'm
29:21
Speaker 2: interviewing for a job, and I thought about all the
29:26
Speaker 2: things you've ever said about like the person, and I'm
29:30
Speaker 2: trying to talk to people who work there, who have
29:33
Speaker 2: worked there about the culture. And because that is one
29:36
Speaker 2: of the biggest things I always say, is if you
29:38
Speaker 2: can talk to someone who will talk to you honestly,
29:42
Speaker 2: sometimes even just find someone on LinkedIn. If you don't
29:44
Speaker 2: know anyone, you think.
29:45
Speaker 1: It's okay to reach out to someone cold on LinkedIn
29:48
Speaker 1: who used to work there, who does work there.
29:50
Speaker 2: I would if you had a choice, I would go
29:52
Speaker 2: to someone who used to work there. Yeah, first, because
29:56
Speaker 2: they have no in theory, they shouldn't have any hidden
29:59
Speaker 2: agendas or anything. Right, they should be able to speak
30:00
Speaker 2: with you freely. And if you know someone who does
30:03
Speaker 2: work there now but can be honest with you, right,
30:07
Speaker 2: like can really be like, here are the advantages disadvantages.
30:10
Speaker 2: Here's what it really is. But I think sometimes even
30:13
Speaker 2: from a website of an organization, right, you can see
30:18
Speaker 2: who's being highlighted, what are they talking about. I think
30:22
Speaker 2: one of the hard things is there's such a buzz,
30:26
Speaker 2: you know, in general, around values and organizations defining their values,
30:30
Speaker 2: and of course it's important, but it's not important if
30:35
Speaker 2: they're just using it as a tool to pull to
30:39
Speaker 2: make you think that that's how the organization will be,
30:42
Speaker 2: and then something else happens internally.
30:44
Speaker 1: How can you tell the difference. I've been bamboozled a
30:47
Speaker 1: few times.
30:48
Speaker 2: My advice around that is, if you've had the confirmation
30:53
Speaker 2: that it's not a place where you can thrive or
30:56
Speaker 2: it's not a place where you can be comfortable, it
30:59
Speaker 2: doesn't necessary pay to stick around and find out how
31:03
Speaker 2: bad it can get.
31:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, I fully agree. So at the end
31:08
Speaker 1: of every job interview, you typically get asked if you
31:11
Speaker 1: have any questions? What do you think are some smart
31:14
Speaker 1: questions for somebody to ask? That is interviewing well, what
31:20
Speaker 1: people want to see, Like if you've ever been on
31:22
Speaker 1: the other side of the of of interviewing people, Yeah, personally,
31:27
Speaker 1: I always wanted to see that someone had truly done
31:30
Speaker 1: their research about.
31:31
Speaker 2: The organization, they are an interested person, and that they
31:39
Speaker 2: really want to know about the people and where are
31:42
Speaker 2: the organization is going. So I think good questions are
31:44
Speaker 2: what happens in the you know, what are the plans
31:46
Speaker 2: for the next few years. The same way that they
31:48
Speaker 2: ask you what are your plans for the next five years,
31:50
Speaker 2: you could ask what are the organization's plans for the
31:52
Speaker 2: next five years? How do you see this role evolving?
31:55
Speaker 2: What kind of growth possibilities are here? Like, yeah, I
32:00
Speaker 2: love that you said earlier that people now are feeling
32:03
Speaker 2: empowered to think, oh, I'm interviewing them as well. I
32:07
Speaker 2: think the moment you get into that mindset, you know
32:09
Speaker 2: what questions to ask.
32:11
Speaker 1: So I think most workplaces don't focus on training anymore.
32:15
Speaker 1: They used to in like the fifties and sixties, and
32:18
Speaker 1: they definitely don't train people to become good managers or
32:22
Speaker 1: good bosses, or even really talk about leadership much. So,
32:26
Speaker 1: say you're an employee who really wants to learn what
32:28
Speaker 1: it takes. You want to be a great leader or
32:30
Speaker 1: a great manager one day? How can you learn to
32:33
Speaker 1: lead on your own?
32:36
Speaker 2: Ooh, that's a tough one. As leadership, we lead in relationship.
32:44
Speaker 2: M right. It's kind of like I'm not a parent yet.
32:49
Speaker 2: How can I learn to be a good parent? I
32:52
Speaker 2: think there are ways, books you can read, examples, you
32:57
Speaker 2: can absorb self work. I think the best I think
33:01
Speaker 2: the best way to become a good leader, Yeah, is
33:04
Speaker 2: to deal with your shit, is to do your inner
33:07
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a real truth.
33:09
Speaker 1: Do you like any of the book? Like, do you
33:11
Speaker 1: like Simon Sinek? Do you like any of these kind
33:15
Speaker 1: of people? First of all, they're mostly men, which is interesting,
33:17
Speaker 1: But do you like any of these people online who
33:20
Speaker 1: share their philosophies on leadership?
33:29
Speaker 2: My mind went to so many places. I'll tell you
33:30
Speaker 2: where my mind went to open the door of what
33:33
Speaker 2: you just saw, the pause you just saw. Okay, Before
33:36
Speaker 2: I entered academia, before I formally started to study organizational
33:42
Speaker 2: behavior and all this stuff, yeah, yes, I used to
33:45
Speaker 2: love all those people and look at all those people
33:47
Speaker 2: and read and watch all the Ted talks and all that.
33:49
Speaker 2: Simon Sinek speaks to entrepreneurs specifically, right, so his thing
33:54
Speaker 2: is start with why, which is a brilliant thing, but
33:57
Speaker 2: it's not the only thing. And sometimes we give way
34:00
Speaker 2: too much energy to that, right, And I think so
34:03
Speaker 2: much a good leadership when we're talking about leadership pre entrepreneurship,
34:06
Speaker 2: like leadership as a whole is in the nuances. It's
34:11
Speaker 2: not in the like one concept again, back to like
34:16
Speaker 2: one make someone a good parent, right, Like, it's not in.
34:20
Speaker 2: It's not in one catchphrase. It's going to be in
34:25
Speaker 2: you know, as Brene Brown would say, right, are you
34:27
Speaker 2: showing up in the ring? Like? For example, that's a
34:29
Speaker 2: good leadership book. Dare lead her book that is.
34:34
Speaker 1: About vulnerability exactly.
34:37
Speaker 2: It's about all her research. You know, she's obviously someone
34:39
Speaker 2: I really look up to. And one of the reasons
34:41
Speaker 2: I look up to her is she's a researcher who
34:45
Speaker 2: works actively to translate the information for the masses, but
34:49
Speaker 2: also shows up as a full human.
34:50
Speaker 1: Right.
34:50
Speaker 2: She doesn't show up and say I've mastered this. She
34:53
Speaker 2: shows up and said the findings. I'm wrestling with it too, right, Like,
34:59
Speaker 2: here's that's what it is. Yeah, but it's hard. I
35:02
Speaker 2: don't have like strong feelings on like oh this person,
35:04
Speaker 2: know this person, Yes, but I just always think it's
35:08
Speaker 2: about so much more than that. And if you don't
35:11
Speaker 2: have your tools, and you haven't at least started to
35:14
Speaker 2: do your inner work dealing with your shit, it's much
35:17
Speaker 2: harder to show up as a good leader for other people.
35:20
Speaker 1: This made me laugh so hard when I read this.
35:23
Speaker 1: So in your work you say that a red flag
35:26
Speaker 1: is if an organization call them calls themselves a family. Yeah,
35:31
Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? Why?
35:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a study right now that like we're
35:37
Speaker 2: calling like, it's about entanglement. It's how people get entangled
35:40
Speaker 2: in these founder run toxic organizations, which comes from my
35:44
Speaker 2: doctoral work. And this comes from that. And because I notice,
35:49
Speaker 2: like after you know, studying this for eight years, that
35:53
Speaker 2: in the most toxic places they always have this thing
36:00
Speaker 2: but we're a family, or the leader will from the
36:02
Speaker 2: beginning be like you're in the family, dad, da da.
36:07
Speaker 2: Why that's dangerous is your workplace is not your family.
36:13
Speaker 2: You can feel warm feelings and obviously love your colleagues.
36:18
Speaker 2: But if someone comes in and the first thing you
36:21
Speaker 2: hear is this is a family I would either run
36:28
Speaker 2: right then or really take note of it because it
36:33
Speaker 2: means someone is trying to bypass your intuition and your
36:40
Speaker 2: inner understanding of what is really happening.
36:44
Speaker 1: Okay, that leads me to my next question, which is
36:47
Speaker 1: about love bombing, because it's a very common term in dating,
36:51
Speaker 1: but you say it's actually common in the workplace, So
36:53
Speaker 1: can you explain what that looks like?
36:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, love bombing is another term. So I have a
36:59
Speaker 2: co author Boston in the study Best Routes, and she
37:02
Speaker 2: she's a Boston college and when we last year, we
37:05
Speaker 2: were talking about what do we pull out and I
37:09
Speaker 2: brought this love vombing idea to her. I was like,
37:12
Speaker 2: this is exactly what it is. Exactly what people are
37:15
Speaker 2: talking about in relationships is what it is. And so
37:18
Speaker 2: we started talking about how do we put in an
37:20
Speaker 2: academic lank like because it's too scary for academics to
37:23
Speaker 2: say that word, but it is. It is very closely
37:27
Speaker 2: related to the family thing because I'll tell you how
37:30
Speaker 2: it plays out in many organizations. It plays out through perks.
37:35
Speaker 1: So right, okay, like three kombucha on tap. The perks
37:39
Speaker 1: sometimes are what make work fun. So how can you
37:43
Speaker 1: recognize a toxic workplace? What does that even mean?
37:47
Speaker 2: So I think there's a difference between perks with a
37:51
Speaker 2: lowercase P and perks, And the difference is when you
37:57
Speaker 2: work in a workplace and they give you fun snacks,
38:05
Speaker 2: that's a perk with the lowercase P. Right, Like, that
38:07
Speaker 2: makes it. It does make it fun. It makes it like,
38:10
Speaker 2: you know, I interviewed someone a few years ago and
38:14
Speaker 2: I was like, so, how long are you going to
38:15
Speaker 2: stay in this company? It was like an IT company,
38:18
Speaker 2: a tech company, and she was like, I mean as
38:21
Speaker 2: long as the waffle guy is gonna still be here
38:23
Speaker 2: every Monday, Like literally, I'm here for the food, like
38:26
Speaker 2: and she was half joking but not really, you know,
38:29
Speaker 2: So that to me is a lowercase P. Brought it
38:31
Speaker 2: when you have perks that are sort of next level.
38:39
Speaker 2: Here's a great example. Let's say someone starts taking note
38:42
Speaker 2: of something wrong in the organization or something wrong in
38:44
Speaker 2: the leadership, and the next day that person gets five
38:48
Speaker 2: hundred dollars sent to them out of the blue. I
38:51
Speaker 2: have a case that I recently had this happening. That's
38:54
Speaker 2: a red flag the bribery. Exactly, it's bribery. But like
39:00
Speaker 2: like us on the outside listening to this or like,
39:02
Speaker 2: obviously there's this is problematic. But when you're on the
39:05
Speaker 2: inside and things are normalized, you have less of a
39:12
Speaker 2: reason to think something's wrong.
39:14
Speaker 1: So what do you consider a toxic workplace?
39:16
Speaker 2: I consider a toxic workplace first of all, when nobody
39:22
Speaker 2: can be free themselves, like as in fully themselves and
39:26
Speaker 2: show up and express their opinion. Okay, I think the
39:28
Speaker 2: other one is when one person or a small group
39:33
Speaker 2: of people so often the leader in their inner circle
39:37
Speaker 2: or the leader alone has all the control in an organization.
39:42
Speaker 2: The other thing is are people truly being rewarded for
39:47
Speaker 2: their work? Are they being seen for their expertise? Because
39:51
Speaker 2: in a lot of toxic workplaces that I study, everybody's
39:55
Speaker 2: achievements are downplayed if they're not the leader, if they're
39:59
Speaker 2: not the founder.
40:01
Speaker 1: What do you think about thanking employees? I worked at
40:03
Speaker 1: a place one time where the leader never said thank you,
40:08
Speaker 1: and it was everybody's biggest gripe.
40:10
Speaker 2: I think that sounds toxic to me. I mean, why
40:13
Speaker 2: would you do you know what I mean? Like you
40:14
Speaker 2: don't need to like give anyone anything. How why would
40:18
Speaker 2: you not say thank you?
40:19
Speaker 1: And I think his argument was, this is your job, like,
40:23
Speaker 1: this is what we're paying you for.
40:25
Speaker 2: It's interesting. I worked in a toxic workplace once where
40:28
Speaker 2: the founder said, we don't give praise, so something similar to.
40:33
Speaker 1: What you're saying.
40:35
Speaker 2: And she made it about that this was a philosophy,
40:40
Speaker 2: and in truth what it was was a way to
40:43
Speaker 2: control and a way to downplay people spark, you know,
40:49
Speaker 2: for lack of it, because think about it's such a
40:51
Speaker 2: human thing just to say, think, just to be acknowledged,
40:53
Speaker 2: you don't need like a big doesn't even have to
40:55
Speaker 2: be public, means the world. It just means that your
40:58
Speaker 2: contribution is valuable. And the moment that you stop doing that,
41:04
Speaker 2: or maybe that never existed, is when you, as the
41:07
Speaker 2: employee stop recognizing your own worth. Like a lot of
41:11
Speaker 2: the people that I interview that come out of that
41:14
Speaker 2: have that are in the trauma study, the biggest thing
41:17
Speaker 2: they talk about is confidence. That they say being in
41:19
Speaker 2: that place shook my confidence, even though I came in
41:23
Speaker 2: very confident. And so then they start to it it's again,
41:27
Speaker 2: if you put in the romantic context, if you've had
41:30
Speaker 2: all good relationships, then you had one abusive relationship that
41:33
Speaker 2: fucks you up for the next one, right, because you're
41:36
Speaker 2: just like you start to doubt yourself, even though you
41:39
Speaker 2: didn't before you were there.
41:42
Speaker 1: It's very interesting that this is so closely tied to relationships.
41:45
Speaker 1: It's very similar. So I've always felt, and this is baseless,
41:52
Speaker 1: but it's just a theory. I've always felt like there
41:56
Speaker 1: are three pillars when deciding if you like a job
41:59
Speaker 1: or want to take a job. It's the people, the
42:03
Speaker 1: content of the work, and the pay. And if you
42:05
Speaker 1: get two out of three, you're usually happy. I notice
42:09
Speaker 1: when it's one out of three, that's when people start
42:11
Speaker 1: thinking of leaving.
42:13
Speaker 2: People content and pay. It sounds on point. I think
42:18
Speaker 2: the only additional thing I would say is we all
42:21
Speaker 2: have different definitions of success. What is your own personal
42:27
Speaker 2: definition of success? Because everything else plays out from there.
42:31
Speaker 2: I think just asking yourself that question is really critical.
42:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure I've ever asked myself that. That's interesting.
42:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't like I would say with that for
42:42
Speaker 2: a bit, you know, and like give yourself some time
42:45
Speaker 2: with it.
42:46
Speaker 1: Okay, thanks for that, Susannah. My pleasure have you ever
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44:44
Speaker 1: So before we get into toxic workplaces, which I know
44:47
Speaker 1: is your bread and butter, so I don't want to
44:49
Speaker 1: skip over that, I have a devil's advocate question. Sure,
44:53
Speaker 1: and this is not I want to preface this for
44:55
Speaker 1: everybody listening. This is not necessarily how I feel. It's
44:59
Speaker 1: just I think an intr in conversation. All workplaces are
45:02
Speaker 1: challenging in some ways. Are we expecting too much from
45:07
Speaker 1: work or are we not expecting enough.
45:10
Speaker 2: I love this question and thank you for asking me.
45:13
Speaker 2: I really think it's an important question to ask. It
45:15
Speaker 2: makes me think someone I was coaching a couple of
45:18
Speaker 2: years ago who was in the fashion industry for a
45:20
Speaker 2: long time, and she said to me, how do I
45:26
Speaker 2: find tools so I can survive in yet another toxic
45:31
Speaker 2: workplace like this, in this toxic setting. Once we understood
45:34
Speaker 2: that it was a toxic industry setting, and I said
45:37
Speaker 2: to her, but you don't have to as in, it
45:44
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that every organization in this industry is going
45:47
Speaker 2: to make you feel that way. But she had never
45:49
Speaker 2: had any alternative experience, so her thing was everything's going
45:52
Speaker 2: to be like this or challenging in that way, So
45:58
Speaker 2: I need to find tools to be okay in it.
46:01
Speaker 2: And it's not that that's not one way, but I
46:04
Speaker 2: don't think that's.
46:05
Speaker 1: Well I I and I'm now projecting because this is
46:09
Speaker 1: my personal experience. Yeah, but I found early on, like
46:14
Speaker 1: right out of college, people were way worse to me
46:18
Speaker 1: than later on in my career, like the last few years.
46:22
Speaker 1: And if I'm going to take some ownership over it,
46:27
Speaker 1: of course, there's like things I did or roles I've played,
46:31
Speaker 1: but I think when you're early on in your career,
46:35
Speaker 1: like you do need those tools if you want to
46:37
Speaker 1: make it in a certain industry. I was determined, like
46:40
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to leave TV, and so I pushed
46:45
Speaker 1: through a lot of these toxic workplaces.
46:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally hear that, and I think that that
46:51
Speaker 2: is common in a sense of, like, you chosen industry
46:56
Speaker 2: that you knew was going to be challenging, Like I'm
46:59
Speaker 2: sure you were aware of some of the things before
47:01
Speaker 2: you stepped into it, and that I can imagine was
47:05
Speaker 2: less important to you. That like how you felt was
47:08
Speaker 2: less important to you than being in it right.
47:11
Speaker 1: And just to honestly, all of my friends, except for
47:14
Speaker 1: the ones that work in like nutrition or social work
47:17
Speaker 1: where feelings are really important to their work, all have
47:22
Speaker 1: toxic workplace stories.
47:24
Speaker 2: Honestly. I mean, it makes me really sad to hear that,
47:27
Speaker 2: but I also know it's the truth. It's the truth
47:29
Speaker 2: in terms of it's so common. When I think about this,
47:32
Speaker 2: I zoom out all the way, Like I think about
47:34
Speaker 2: what premise is our societies structured under and North American
47:39
Speaker 2: society is extreme capitalism, and extreme capitalism doesn't care about
47:45
Speaker 2: humans like I remember being in business school in my
47:47
Speaker 2: undergrad and I remember being in the first hr or no,
47:50
Speaker 2: like I don't even know what class it was in,
47:52
Speaker 2: but they kept saying human resources, and I was like,
47:56
Speaker 2: I just thought they meant like a thing, like I
47:57
Speaker 2: really didn't even understand what it was. And I remember
48:00
Speaker 2: munths in being like are you talking about people?
48:02
Speaker 1: Like what?
48:03
Speaker 2: Like why are we calling in that? Right? So when
48:06
Speaker 2: you deconstruct these concepts, of course, a lot of like
48:11
Speaker 2: the baseline or what we expect is is like the
48:16
Speaker 2: human feelings and the human experience matters way less than
48:20
Speaker 2: the outcome or the money we're making or whatever. But
48:23
Speaker 2: I hope that today we're in a world where people
48:27
Speaker 2: are asking more questions like I do think. And there
48:30
Speaker 2: is a generational element of it, right, like you know,
48:32
Speaker 2: the whole thing of like boomers or older people like
48:35
Speaker 2: not understanding why millennials want another week off or want
48:38
Speaker 2: freedom or whatever, right.
48:39
Speaker 1: And the next generation now the gen Z thing is
48:42
Speaker 1: all about feelings, Like their bosses complain that they have
48:46
Speaker 1: so many feelings and you're saying, maybe it's not a
48:50
Speaker 1: bad thing.
48:51
Speaker 2: I think it's not a bad thing. It's so interesting.
48:53
Speaker 2: It's like when you think of some of the older
48:56
Speaker 2: people or the people that have been in workplaces longer
49:00
Speaker 2: that have never been able to express their feelings or
49:02
Speaker 2: have never been able to like take a real sick
49:04
Speaker 2: day or whatever, and all of a sudden someone comes
49:06
Speaker 2: in and is like, yeah, I'm not feeling great, I'm
49:09
Speaker 2: taking the day off. What it happens is it puts
49:11
Speaker 2: a mirror to them and their whole experience, and that's scary,
49:15
Speaker 2: and people don't want to really reevaluate, like, oh my god,
49:18
Speaker 2: like who would I have been if I felt comfortable
49:21
Speaker 2: to take sick days, if I felt comfortable to do things?
49:24
Speaker 2: And I think so, you know, I totally understand and
49:28
Speaker 2: agree that some industries are more toxic than others because
49:31
Speaker 2: that's what they're like, you know, it kind of built
49:33
Speaker 2: on but you know, for example, even in I don't
49:37
Speaker 2: know if it would be considered your world exactly, but
49:40
Speaker 2: like the whole Ellen degenerous.
49:42
Speaker 1: Thing, right, that very much my world. And for years
49:46
Speaker 1: in LA it was talked about in TV world like
49:49
Speaker 1: everybody knew that that was a toxic workplace, but when
49:53
Speaker 1: it broke, no one was surprised.
49:56
Speaker 2: Well so, and I heard that as well after it
49:58
Speaker 2: went down, I start hearing a go everyone knew, and
50:00
Speaker 2: that's what usually happens, by the way, usually people in
50:03
Speaker 2: the world knew. But then then I have many questions
50:06
Speaker 2: out of that. First of all, why why was it
50:09
Speaker 2: not called out earlier? Second of all, is it that
50:11
Speaker 2: that industry is just so comfortable with toxic workplaces.
50:15
Speaker 1: Daytime television Susannah.
50:18
Speaker 2: Holy shit. I mean I've heard you mention some of
50:22
Speaker 2: the things in some of your episodes.
50:24
Speaker 1: No, it's wild, but it's also I think part of
50:28
Speaker 1: the culture of like the war stories, like people love
50:32
Speaker 1: reminiscing over it.
50:33
Speaker 2: Also, sure, and here's another thing about workplace trauma. Yeah,
50:39
Speaker 2: and I have this in my interviews where you know,
50:43
Speaker 2: people will say, yes, the workplace was toxic, but the
50:47
Speaker 2: people were amazing, and we got so close because we
50:50
Speaker 2: were like sort of like banding against the same you know,
50:53
Speaker 2: sort of like devil so to speak, Yes, one hundred percent,
50:57
Speaker 2: But when you put that in the context of like
50:59
Speaker 2: a toxic relationship or toxic family, just because that's happening
51:06
Speaker 2: and because those are your survival mechanisms doesn't make it okay.
51:11
Speaker 2: It doesn't make it okay.
51:14
Speaker 1: So toxic workplaces so There's been a lot of examples
51:19
Speaker 1: of founders that are men Adam Newman from We Work,
51:22
Speaker 1: Billy McFarlane which was the Firefest guy. And in Good
51:27
Speaker 1: to Great, which is like a very popular leadership book,
51:29
Speaker 1: Jim Collins writes, less charismatic leaders often produce better long
51:33
Speaker 1: term results than they are more charismatic counterparts. That was
51:37
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. Is charisma a red flag?
51:41
Speaker 2: Not necessarily? Is the short answer in Obviously, in a
51:45
Speaker 2: lot of the founders I study, you know, including like
51:48
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Holmes, charisma is a piece of the puzzle, but
51:53
Speaker 2: it's not the whole story. So someone can be charismatic
51:59
Speaker 2: but not abuse it in a way. It's like celebrities.
52:03
Speaker 2: It's a great example. You know, so many celebrities are
52:06
Speaker 2: so many actors like that's just like what they do
52:08
Speaker 2: and they naturally have charisma, but we can I'm sure
52:11
Speaker 2: both think of examples of people who then abuse.
52:14
Speaker 1: It, right, and those who don't.
52:17
Speaker 2: And those who just are like And it's interesting because
52:19
Speaker 2: I think on the other side, the ones that don't
52:22
Speaker 2: are conscious of its power, if that makes sense, right, Like,
52:25
Speaker 2: so someone could be understanding of the impact they have
52:29
Speaker 2: on people and keep it within the parameters. One of
52:34
Speaker 2: my biggest things is with founders, but I think with
52:37
Speaker 2: everybody is let's take people off their pedestals, because we
52:41
Speaker 2: are all responsible for putting people. We bought the magazines
52:45
Speaker 2: with Elizabeth almost on the cover, do you know, like
52:48
Speaker 2: where it said the next Steve Jobs or whatever. So
52:52
Speaker 2: so if she was the other kind of leader, she
52:57
Speaker 2: would have said, don't put me on that pedestal. I
53:02
Speaker 2: know it's an interesting like way to think about it,
53:04
Speaker 2: but if you think of people, I'm sure you've had examples,
53:06
Speaker 2: Like when you think of people who recognize their power
53:09
Speaker 2: they're having and they're saying, don't you trust your own intuition?
53:13
Speaker 1: It's like good parenting, right, It's like, make your own decision. Here,
53:17
Speaker 1: here's I've guided you far.
53:19
Speaker 2: Enough, exactly exactly. First of all, I think parenting should
53:24
Speaker 2: come with a license to trauma or do you even
53:27
Speaker 2: understand what this is?
53:28
Speaker 1: Maybe being a CEO should also.
53:31
Speaker 2: A hundred percent Oh my god, I would love that
53:34
Speaker 2: would be the greatest thing ever, Like have you passed
53:37
Speaker 2: these says? Because good parents understand that they have a power, yeah,
53:43
Speaker 2: and they understand that sometimes they really need to use it,
53:47
Speaker 2: and sometimes it's not you know, it's like hold yourself
53:50
Speaker 2: that kind of thing, and that takes a self mastery
53:53
Speaker 2: and it takes self awareness. I think leadership is the same,
53:56
Speaker 2: and I think the questions we're talking about are the same.
53:59
Speaker 2: It's like, are you self aware? Having said that, the
54:02
Speaker 2: reason why I started these retreats for women because I
54:06
Speaker 2: want women to feel like there's an alternative way of
54:11
Speaker 2: leading and we don't have many examples of that right now.
54:16
Speaker 2: And my feeling is in so far would have it's
54:18
Speaker 2: proven to be true is when we're in community with
54:21
Speaker 2: other women who also show up open hearted, things do
54:25
Speaker 2: shift and you start to think of, wait, I don't
54:27
Speaker 2: have to show up in just the masculine leadership way
54:30
Speaker 2: that we've all seen.
54:34
Speaker 1: Two of my very favorite bosses have been women yay,
54:39
Speaker 1: and one recently was when I worked for IMDb. Her
54:43
Speaker 1: name is Lindsay Campbell, and watching her lead and just
54:50
Speaker 1: even maneuver and email and all the things. I don't
54:56
Speaker 1: even think she knows how impactful it was for me
54:58
Speaker 1: because I had never seen seen like, I don't email
55:01
Speaker 1: the way men email, right, and so like, I had
55:03
Speaker 1: never been able to see that up close and personal.
55:06
Speaker 1: So the fact that you're giving people these examples and
55:10
Speaker 1: even like peer to peer is so valuable, it's so
55:13
Speaker 1: cool that you're doing that.
55:14
Speaker 2: I just got chills in the back of my neck.
55:16
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you have not one, but two
55:18
Speaker 2: examples of that. Like, that's all we need. We just
55:21
Speaker 2: need proof that it's possible, and we need people women.
55:25
Speaker 2: We need women to show up embodied men too, though,
55:28
Speaker 2: do you know, like it's just about the masculine feminine
55:30
Speaker 2: energetic balance regardless of gender.
55:34
Speaker 1: There is something about seeing yourself. Yeah, like I've had
55:39
Speaker 1: good male bosses too, but I don't see myself as Steve.
55:43
Speaker 1: I see myself as Lindsay.
55:45
Speaker 2: Exactly, back to why representation matters, but also why like
55:49
Speaker 2: you do have a responsibility, especially as a female leader,
55:53
Speaker 2: of how you're showing up because the other people around
55:58
Speaker 2: you are paying attention. They are paying attention even if
56:01
Speaker 2: it doesn't seem like it, and those thank yous matter,
56:04
Speaker 2: and that the way you write the email matters, which
56:07
Speaker 2: you know, to link it back to the earlier mention
56:10
Speaker 2: of the performative vulnerability, do you feel the difference right, Like,
56:14
Speaker 2: this is what we're talking about. We're not talking about
56:16
Speaker 2: that we're talking about showing up embodied and just being
56:21
Speaker 2: honest about this moment and bringing your whole self to it.
56:25
Speaker 1: So I learned about this recently on TikTok, and I'm
56:28
Speaker 1: so glad that the timing was right because you were
56:31
Speaker 1: the perfect person to ask about it. So it's called
56:35
Speaker 1: the glass cliff, and I guess it's what happens when
56:39
Speaker 1: a company is in crisis and then they put a
56:43
Speaker 1: woman in a leadership position, and a lot of it's
56:47
Speaker 1: kind of having to do with virtue signaling. So it
56:50
Speaker 1: happened with Mary Bara at GM, Carly Fiorina at HP,
56:55
Speaker 1: Marissa Mayer at Yahoo. Elon Musk just announced that Lindao
57:01
Speaker 1: is going to be the new CEO of Twitter. Is
57:05
Speaker 1: the glass cliff theory a myth or is it real?
57:10
Speaker 2: So? I had not heard of it before, but it
57:13
Speaker 2: sounds about right to me. Unfortunately, it tracks It makes
57:18
Speaker 2: me sad, you know, and it makes me sad for
57:21
Speaker 2: those women as well, right because like, like it sucks
57:25
Speaker 2: they're not being set up for success. But I think
57:27
Speaker 2: what it speaks to is the reality of the current
57:30
Speaker 2: world we're still living in. Like, even though we're questioning
57:33
Speaker 2: some of these things, and when we spoke a moment
57:35
Speaker 2: ago about having the women in our lives that are
57:38
Speaker 2: the embodied leaders and show up in a different way.
57:42
Speaker 2: Unfortunately those are still few and far between. That is
57:46
Speaker 2: still not the norm. Right. It makes me heartbreaking, But
57:50
Speaker 2: I think it also speaks to those industries sometimes because
57:53
Speaker 2: especially in a lot of like the tech industries, they
57:56
Speaker 2: still are the bro industries and kind of tracks.
58:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember when Uber was in trouble years ago,
58:04
Speaker 1: they did this press conference type thing and they had
58:06
Speaker 1: like Ariana Huffington as part of their board and all
58:08
Speaker 1: these women and all of us all of a sudden
58:11
Speaker 1: because I think the issue was they had a rape
58:14
Speaker 1: charge that they didn't deal with properly, and then nothing
58:18
Speaker 1: ever happened, and there was no protocol put into place
58:21
Speaker 1: and nothing changed on the app to help women be safe.
58:23
Speaker 1: It was like all a bunch of bs.
58:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, right, And I think the reason they
58:29
Speaker 2: can get away with it and have gotten away with it,
58:31
Speaker 2: and why it continues like not a lot of change
58:34
Speaker 2: in this industry and other similar industries is because it's
58:37
Speaker 2: still men at the top, and it's still a lot
58:40
Speaker 2: of white men at the top.
58:41
Speaker 1: Yeah. The big reasons diversity really really really is valuable.
58:46
Speaker 2: Huge, and then the people that do show up that
58:50
Speaker 2: aren't the white men, do they have space to push
58:57
Speaker 2: differences forward if they want to. And you know, like
59:02
Speaker 2: like sometimes it seems like we've made such great progress,
59:05
Speaker 2: but then you hear these stories and you hear and
59:08
Speaker 2: it's like like the moment I read that the theory,
59:13
Speaker 2: I was like, I started thinking of all these other
59:15
Speaker 2: examples of it, which.
59:17
Speaker 1: Sucks, right, they can't they were top of mind.
59:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were.
59:21
Speaker 1: We have some rapid fire ready. Okay, a communication strategy
59:26
Speaker 1: that you find really effective to harness in the workplace.
59:32
Speaker 2: Well, this is a bit of a best practice that
59:34
Speaker 2: I think is like a wider one that I have
59:36
Speaker 2: learned from other people. But really to like speak from
59:39
Speaker 2: your own feelings, you know, as in, not here's what
59:43
Speaker 2: you did wrong, but here's how I felt when you
59:47
Speaker 2: did this thing, or here's how it made this group
59:49
Speaker 2: of people feel. Yeah, I think. I think anything around
59:53
Speaker 2: that is.
59:53
Speaker 1: Usually affective, something simple everyone can do to make their
59:57
Speaker 1: own experience in the workplace better.
1:00:00
Speaker 2: I think have your tools of how you ground yourself
1:00:05
Speaker 2: and come back to yourself. So sometimes it can be
1:00:09
Speaker 2: as simple as water like making sure you always have
1:00:13
Speaker 2: water around. For some people, it's like I need to
1:00:15
Speaker 2: always go for a walk at lunchtime, or like take
1:00:18
Speaker 2: a space out.
1:00:20
Speaker 1: Okay, a book you've read that changed your life, something
1:00:22
Speaker 1: you think everybody should read.
1:00:24
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, so many. If I can just choose one,
1:00:27
Speaker 2: then it's Man Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel.
1:00:31
Speaker 1: Someone gifted me that book actually, and I haven't read
1:00:34
Speaker 1: it yet.
1:00:35
Speaker 2: I highly recommend that you do. But you kind of
1:00:37
Speaker 2: have to be in the right mind space for it's short,
1:00:38
Speaker 2: but you it's intense.
1:00:40
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, let me know when to stop. Okay, okay stop.
1:00:47
Speaker 1: What's something you wish people could see about you that
1:00:50
Speaker 1: they don't see at first glance?
1:00:52
Speaker 2: Ah, funny enough. I think it's that I'm an introvert.
1:00:58
Speaker 2: This is the thing is that I always say for
1:01:01
Speaker 2: people that don't know me, I always say, contrary to
1:01:04
Speaker 2: how it may appear, because people think that just if
1:01:07
Speaker 2: someone's warm and friendly, open, that means they're you know
1:01:11
Speaker 2: that they're an expert, because we have our definitions because
1:01:15
Speaker 2: introversion experts is how about how you recharge?
1:01:18
Speaker 1: Yep?
1:01:19
Speaker 2: So I think that's that's one big thing, and that's
1:01:21
Speaker 2: and I so appreciate that people that know me well
1:01:23
Speaker 2: know that really well and account for that.
1:01:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, Honor, that the smartest decision you've ever made.
1:01:30
Speaker 2: Bar None moving to Barcelona.
1:01:35
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I'm sure as an introvert this took a
1:01:37
Speaker 1: lot out of you. I'm actually introvert to so go nap,
1:01:41
Speaker 1: to go have your siesta even though you're in Toronto. Okay,
1:01:50
Speaker 1: you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
1:01:53
Speaker 1: To have a good day. I'll see you
1:01:55
Speaker 2: Next week starts tod