Latest / Radically Genuine / 95. Brooke Siem’s Candid Encounter with Antidepressant Hell: Part 2

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95. Brooke Siem’s Candid Encounter with Antidepressant Hell: Part 2 · Radically Genuine

• So you bring up really some interesting points that I think is an opportunity for us to discuss. And it's some of these dark thoughts about being human and how Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: we're unable to kind of normalize them in certain contexts because of the fear of how others are going to judge us for this. And this is very clear in the mental health system. I have to say it to all my clients, listen, just because you're thinking about suicide doesn't mean I can take away your freedom. You have every right to think about suicide. If it pops up, let's talk about it if you're experiencing it. But there's such a fear. Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: about being open with your mental health provider that Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: they're going to 302 you and take away your rights. And luckily you had the foresight and awareness even when you were going through hell with withdrawal to be careful about what you said and which takes us to the next villain in my mind, Dr. Chin. Brooke Siem: Yeah. Kel: Dr. Chin wants you to stop a Fexer, XR, cold turkey from what Brooke Siem: Mm hmm. Kel: I recall, Brooke Siem: Correct. Kel: which is so... fucking dangerous. Like effects or XR is one of those drugs with the really long half life, I believe. Brooke Siem: short Kel: And Brooke Siem: Half Life. Kel: I'm sorry, the really short half life, meaning it leaves your system fairly quickly Brooke Siem: Yes. Kel: and the withdrawal effects are like horrible. Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: And that is what she instructed you to do. Brooke Siem: Correct. Now, in her defense, and the wonderful thing about the heroes and villains in my book is that, with the exception of maybe Dr. Sanders, I'm not sure anyone, no one was acting maliciously, right? Everyone was kind of acting under the best information they had at the time. And I mean, I'm the hero and villain in my own book as well. Everyone has a role to play. But with Dr. Chin specifically, the reason why she said you need to stop cold turkey is because I was on 37.5 milligrams of effects or XR, which is the lowest dose on the market. So from her education and understanding at that point in 2016, she couldn't prescribe me a lower dose. So what was the other option? Right? That was the way she was thinking. I get that. It's still bad advice though. And unfortunately, it's still something that happens, even though we definitely know better now. I mean, you know, her attitude about the whole thing wasn't great either, but I could have dealt with that, you know, but she didn't... the word hyperbolic tapering hadn't even been invented. She didn't tell me to open up the capsule and start counting the pills. She told me that withdrawal would last a few days and feel like the flu. Like we were dealing in prehistoric ages, effectively, comparatively, at that point. So I don't know if there would have been anybody else in the world who would have told me any different. And it was still a bad... Kel: Part of the problem is that those symptoms have been reported since the drugs first came to market and the physicians just had a way of blaming it back onto the patient as if it's part of their mental illness. And this is the stuff that makes me Brooke Siem: Still Kel: angry, Brooke Siem: have. Kel: right? It still happens today, even though we have a lot more information. Brooke Siem: Yeah, a lot. Kel: It means you're just kind of gaslin' about the entire thing. You start to experience... these side effects from the drugs and they're so brainwashed to believe these drugs are medicinal with minimal side effects that when people report these horrible reactions that they're really pathologized. And so it's like another drug for the side effect of that drug or to prevent this withdrawal. And what this does, it just puts you into horrible withdrawal. And I don't know how you survived it, to be honest with you. Brooke Siem: I think about that a lot because, you know, withdrawal, serious withdrawal lasted, for me, lasted about a year. And then there was about another year of kind of, I would still have symptoms coming in and out, but it was a lot more intolerable. I could see that I was getting better. And then it was really about two full years before I decided like, okay, I think I'm done with what I can call withdrawal. There was still plenty of collateral damage I had to fix. that I'm still kind of fixing seven years later, but the really truly terrifying stuff for me lasted about a year. And because of, you know, my work and my book now, so many people share their stories with me and I hear different stories. And very often I ask, okay, what was the difference between me and these other people who could not get off these drugs or who it's been three years and they're still having the issues that I was having for a year. I don't have any hard answers for that. The only difference that I really see, the only kind of actionable difference, I suppose, that I see between myself and everybody else is that I was in a very unique position where the catalyst for me getting off of these drugs was having this bizarre opportunity to travel around the world for a year. And so because of that, I had this opportunity to completely remove myself from... the situation I had been in for seven years, which wasn't good in New York. I struggled with my business, I struggled with my business partner, I struggled with New York in general, like we made no money. I mean, every kind of standard thing about why life is hard, what happened. But when I was able to completely separate myself in that because I was living in a hut in Thailand, there was nothing, it was clear the problem was me, right? That was it. I couldn't blame my situation on my business partner. She wasn't there. And because I was moving, I was moving locations in this weird little program every month, so we'd be in a different country every month. It was like a different opportunity to say, all right, what's coming with me this month and what is getting left behind. It provided not only huge amount of structure and forced me to... operate in ways just to live. Like, I couldn't not find a grocery store and go get food. We didn't have postmates. I couldn't just lie in my own bad feelings. I couldn't, even if withdrawal, if I was in a bad wave, I still had to find a way to function and survive in these countries where I couldn't speak the language and I didn't know anyone, etc, etc. That, I think, was a huge, huge reason why I actually did as well comparatively, because I, you know, we all are surprised at our own strength and we're put in a position to do it. And I was forced to be on high alert focusing on things other than withdrawal for the year that I was in withdrawal. Most Kel: If Brooke Siem: people Kel: you Brooke Siem: don't get to do that. Instead, the whole world is just a reminder of their... situation and then when withdrawal comes up, they're able to be in their comfy bed with their creature comforts and all these things that we think make us feel better when oftentimes I wonder if those are the things that are really inhibiting us from actually breaking through and getting closer to where we need to be. Kel: And it sounds like you doing all of that, you were taken out of a system where you were relying on everything and you actually did have to rely on yourself. And that was the catalyst for you to, to do that. I'm just curious. I just want to jump back. When you were diagnosed and you went through all, when you were taking all these medications, did any one of the doctors actually explain to you, uh, that these can have serious side effects or did they minimize the side effects? Brooke Siem: I mean, I saw the pamphlet. Kel: But they didn't talk to you about it. They didn't sit there and say, Hey, before you take this, I got to tell you there's some. Okay. Brooke Siem: No, and also, again, keep in mind, it was 2001 and I was 15. Kel: Right. Brooke Siem: So we, you know, we didn't have the now 30 years of data that we have, right? We didn't have the internet where people are talking about all the crap that happened to them on this. So no, I had no idea. And then again, I wasn't seeing, it's not like I had a regular person who I was seeing every month or every two months when we The last seven years of my medication history, I was being given drugs by a doctor who was around the corner from me. He was a GP. And I remember about five years in, one day he calls me and he says, we never did a physical. We should probably do that. Like I literally went in there and said, I've been on these drugs at that point. It had been six or seven years. I said, I've been on these drugs for seven years. I'm fine. Can you just prescribe them? And he said, okay. And then every year when I needed refills, he'd just like call the pharmacy. So, I mean, again, whose fault is that? Is it the system? Is it his or is it mine for just not even questioning it? I mean, it's, everyone has, everyone is responsible. Kel: Brooke, there was one other pivotal moment, and this goes back to, I know I'm putting people into categories here with heroes and villains, but, you know, Brooke Siem: It's Kel: that's Brooke Siem: okay, every Kel: what it. Brooke Siem: good story needs a hero and a villain. Kel: One of the heroes in my mind was Kathy, your mom's friend who was a psychologist. Brooke Siem: Interesting. Kel: And that was, you were in a really dark place and Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: I was, you know, as I'm reading it, a lot of people might've ended their life by suicide at that time. But she said some things to you that I thought were extremely wise and put you in a different head space. Brooke Siem: Yeah, so the interesting thing about Kathy is that in the realm of heroes and villains, she was the one who encouraged my mom to take me to a child psychologist in the first place, because she was a psychologist in town. And so she also, I think, was in part recommending the psychiatrist. So it's interesting that we have these bookends, right? Like, both she and my mom were part of the path to putting me on these drugs. They both were part of the path to get me off of them. So, you know, I think if nothing else, that's a testament to... when you educate yourself and learn more information, then you become smarter and you change your opinions on things. But when I was deep in withdrawal and having the really terrifying, intrusive, violent thoughts on the effects of withdrawal when I called her and she was, I hadn't told my mom really what was happening to that level because even though my mom and I have such a pure relationship, the amount of, I didn't, I wanted to protect her. like I didn't want her to know I was thinking these things because I, what could she do? It just, she already knew I was in a bad state. I didn't feel the need to tell her everything. But Kathy, on the other hand, you know, she was, she's a, she's a professional and I've known her since I was three years old, even younger, maybe. So I could, I, and she was in Nevada. I was in New York. She couldn't do anything. She couldn't put me on an involuntary psychiatric hold. So when I told her what was happening, she had enough knowledge at the time to say, I think that this is antidepressant withdrawal. I think this has to do with you getting off the effectser. But the one thing she said to me was that, crazy people don't know they're crazy. And if you're aware that what you're thinking is quote unquote bad, then you're not gonna act on it because you are. Your feet are still on the ground. You're conscious. You're aware of what's happening to you and it's terrible, but You're not acting Outside of yourself if that makes sense, there's a word for it and I can't know what it is. Do you want to? Kel: Um, agonosia, ah, cheese. Brooke Siem: No, it's not that. It's like, shoot, I don't know. There's a term for whether or not the patient is Kel: Oh, oh, yeah. Brooke Siem: aware of what they're doing. Kel: Yeah, I'm sorry that name escapes me but I have Brooke Siem: Thank you. Kel: another question here for you. Um, it's around like the darkness of the intrusive thoughts that you Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: were experiencing. So Brooke Siem: Yep. Kel: that was another really compelling part because I think it was the way that you wrote it. Um, I mean, it was really constructed well where you, um, as the reader, you were like in your body. So I, you know, I've seen this where there's these. intrusive thoughts that feel like they're coming outside of the person. And I've also heard you talk about, and you talked about on this podcast about not normalizing some of the dark thoughts that we have. And that's part of, you know, part of our culture. And so, I mean, I was just, when you, when I was reading that part in your book, that same day, I experienced a session where, you know, one of my clients was talking about her rapist and in my mind, and this happens sometimes, I like I kind of zone off to turn into like Dexter, if people know who Dexter Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: is. In my mind, I was like going to hunt that guy down and murder him Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: because he's out there, he's not in jail, and he could do it to somebody else, right? And so of course I'm not going to do that. And so that's where my feet were on the ground. Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: But those intrusive thoughts that were there took me away from that session for a brief period of time. And that's part of... I think just a normal reaction to just being human. And we don't have the capacity to be open about that in our culture, but Cathy was clear to you, like you, if you're crazy, you wouldn't know you're crazy. Brooke Siem: Right, right. Yeah, so for me, the violent intrusive thoughts started coming in less than a week after I had been fully off of the effectser. And they were distinctly different from the suicidal ideation. Like the suicidal ideation that I experienced on the antidepressants felt like. It felt like if someone said, think about a red tomato, and then you conjured the image of a red tomato in your head. Like I would see, you know, I would see a bus and I would conjure the idea very consciously of walking in front of it. It didn't feel outside of me and it didn't feel like psychological assault. With the effects of withdrawal and the violent thoughts that happened there, I mean, they were things like towards myself and other people. And it was like someone right in front of me. So it was the worst when I saw other people in other faces. So when I was in New York and I was like going to the grocery store, you know, you'd easily pass 50 people in one block and it's like, I would see them. And in my mind's eye, it was like a veil that came down over my world and I would see myself doing something terrible to them. Like I talked about in one of my books, like kicking the walker out from under an old lady with a walker, right? And I would see it as if it was real, but it wasn't a hallucination. It wasn't like, you know, there's a globe on my desk right here. It's not like I'm looking at the globe and it turns into a gnome and I think a gnome is there. It wasn't that. It was like, somehow I could see two realities at the same time. And again, the best comparison I have is to when you're driving on the highway and you just think to yourself, what if I just turn right off, right? It's like, you're operating as you should and you have this really bizarre thought. They both seem like completely reasonable outcomes in your... your home in both places. Does that make sense? Kel: Yeah, so controversial subject here, the increased school shootings and the violence that we're experiencing in American culture. We have some pretty strong data that suggests that many of these public shooters, mass shooters, were on multiple psychiatric drugs. So you've experienced this firsthand. I think that you could probably speak to how this could happen with the manner in which we're treating people who are struggling emotionally. Brooke Siem: Yeah, I mean, that topic is extremely fraught and very complicated. And to me, what's more interesting about that is not that people have intrusive thoughts and some people act on them. It's more that in what we know about a lot of the shooters is that they did not have the genetic ability to actually metabolize these drugs. So they were building up in a toxic way in their system. So for more information on that, I would point people towards the work the work of Dr. Selma Eichlin Blum-Schefeld, which I'm She's Dutch, I think, and I completely butchered the pronunciation of her last name. But she's a forensic, she works in forensics and she's a psychiatrist and she specifically, I think she's a psychiatrist, she works in forensics. Anyway, she does genetic testing on a variety of folks and is actually mapping the pathways in which these drugs are metabolized. And has... started to draw conclusions between people who have a genetic inability to metabolize Zoloft. And when they do that, what happens is they go into more of a state of crazy people not knowing they're crazy. And that's when terrible things happen. I don't necessarily know and I'm not going to speculate if that's the same thing that I was going to experiencing. I've done genetic testing on myself. I do not have a genetic inability to metabolize these drugs. an intermediate metabolizer when it comes to a effectsor. So there is some argument to be made that the drugs did not work quite in my system as they would expect. But the violence we see on the news is a very different manifestation of this, although I'm not unconvinced that it's not connected. I just think it's another branch of this situation. Kel: Yeah, this is, it's the CYP450 pathway. If you go to Brooke's sub stack, happiness is a scale. She does some writing on this area that I thought, I think is well worth your time because we know that our, you know, our people who are getting these prescribed these drugs are not going through genetic testing. So we are increasing. Brooke Siem: No, they're not and genetic testing is not the be-all end-all either. There's a lot of problems and questions that surround it but I'm of the mindset that the more information is good here and You know for the majority of people they're probably not gonna be in one of these buckets where they are a complete Non-metabolizer of these drugs, but if you are you really want to know You really want to know and we're literally talking potentially life and death either of you possibly somebody else or even just some other just really bad side effects. And it kind of to me seems like low hanging fruit. I mean, that's really my whole, you know, my whole thing at the end of the day with this stuff is that if I could do my life over again, we would have made a lot of different choices and I wouldn't be here. But I mean, I wouldn't be here talking to you about this, probably. Hopefully I'd be somewhere else talking about other things. But these drugs aren't going anywhere. like they're not and that is not a cynical, it's not viewed through the lens of cynicism, it's viewed through the lens of just like obviously they're not going anywhere, we just approve Lex Pro for seven-year-olds, right? So how do we get people as much information as they deserve to have in order to make the choice that they want to make for their life? And that is that is relevant to both going on these drugs and coming off of them. This needs to be a full spectrum conversation that going off of them needs to happen when we're talking about going on them. They need to be together. Patients need to know that there are no long-term studies. They need to know what the actual side effects of these drugs are that are maybe not as like easy to spot and violent. They need to know that about the genetic testing, they need to know that these Emotional blunting is a thing and you know, tardive dysphoria and all of these things that, you know, some of us are just screaming about wondering why people can't get it. They need to be told that to that by their doctor in the first appointment and it needs to be legally required. Kel: Amen. So yeah, I've listened to you on other podcasts, some popular ones too, some other interviews. I hear some people in the media or podcasters, they always kind of couch their statements like, well, Brooke Siem: Yeah. Kel: I know antidepressants have their place and they do help some people. And then they just kind of refer to them as overprescribed, um, as if they really are helping people. I'm actually interested to know your thoughts on this. I'll share my thoughts after you go. Brooke Siem: I'm particularly fired up about this today because of the Lexapro thing. And also I'm just tired and when I'm tired, like I'm tired of feeling like the work doesn't matter and I lose my filter a little bit. Makes for better entertainment though. You know, I mean, look, I guess at this point we have to meet people where they are and we have to meet the culture and society where they are. said earlier, these drugs aren't going anywhere and changing the way, changing our culture. You know, there's a little, we need to do a lot of things that have nothing to do with the pharmaceutical industry in order to thrive as humans. And I don't go out in the world and see that is changing fast enough. So knowing that, I suppose that the only thing I can really do is just look at the research that seems to repeatedly... which is interesting because we don't have a lot of repeatable research here. I repeatedly see research that says that in about 15% of severe cases, these drugs can have some short-term benefit. So I am willing to concede that level of ground. However, that's not how they're being used. Short-term benefit, what are we talking? Maybe what, four to 12 weeks? That's not... That's not considered short-term clinically either. People are like, oh, let's try you for a year or two. That's not short-term. So if we were actually practicing by those standards that we seem to see over time, then I wouldn't maybe be as fired up about it, but that's just not how this happens. And if you don't abide by those standards, everyone likes to think of themselves as the exception. And I know that because I thought of myself as the exception for so many years. You know, I was one of those people who needed it. That was that. And everyone you give people that inch and they're going to take it. The problem is that doesn't help. That doesn't help the 15 percent. And it doesn't help the 85 percent either. Kel: I think one of the areas that we can probably improve upon is reaching parents. I think you've, you've talked about this a lot and I think you said that parents need to get help for themselves first on a podcast and I absolutely agree with that. Again, I see this all the time with the students and I'm like, I look at their family life and I'm like, listen, they need help first. They got to get their life in order. But I want to hear your thoughts as I often think there might be for lack of a better term, a bit of a crisis right now with parenting, because I think we're We're not, I mean, as a parent myself, like we want to quell emotions. Like you can't feel anything. You know, you're crying right now. Stop it. Like I noticed that with everybody, like go to the playground, you know, oh my gosh, don't, don't act up. Don't do this. But I'm like, there are emotions in their children and shouldn't they be allowed to, to feel these things and sometimes in extreme way. So I want to hear, I think that's one of the solutions is to reach them, but you, you talk about parenting a lot and only hear your thoughts on that. Brooke Siem: Yeah, I talk about parenting a lot for someone who isn't a parent. Kel: Thank you. Brooke Siem: So I guess I reserve the right to change my thoughts and feelings if I ever do become one. But I feel like more for me, what I see is the effects of the strategies we're imparting on our kids now, which just really don't seem to be working very well. And I think one of the... problems with parenting in our strategy and our view of parenting at this point is that you're supposed to be this completely You know selfless creature that is all about the kid and in many ways that's very true And we have not you know, I think that in a lot of ways If people were Really understood that their job as a parent was to create Nurture the best possible human they could that requires a lot of selflessness, obviously, right? but we're also all human and parents bring their own problems into the situation. And I think it's absurd to look at a seven-year-old and say, you are the problem without looking at the environment in the environment that the seven-year-old is in because the seven-year-old is just a sponge. So if you fix the parenting, you fix the kid. Now, obviously we run into a big problem of resources and egos and self-awareness and financial issues and all these things that, you know, the individual situations are all complicated and unique. But on a general level, I have yet, I just, I have yet to see a situation where you've got a young kid who isn't the direct result of the influences that are being put on them. And so that's why I say that's when parents ask me for advice about their kids, I say get help for yourself. And I think that applies to adult children as well. Because You know, all this emotional entanglement and this obsession with making sure our kids are okay, keeps them sick. It keeps people in their roles. It doesn't allow the children to figure things out for theirs for themselves and be independent and self, you know, self-regulate and fix their own problems, right? They need to learn to do that, whether or not they're three or 30. And it doesn't help the parent who has completely lost. their own individuality and everything about them because they're so focused on the problems in their kids. All it does is throw a big light on all the problems and then people stay stuck there because it's their roles. breakthrough that takes a lot of work and self awareness and often outside help. And honestly, I don't have an answer for how you do that other than maybe just planting the seed in people that there's that option is there. Kel: Which is why cultural messages are so important. So like generationally, it's like we've shifted from communicating to our kids what is normal and how to respond. They kind of building up that strength and resiliency to go over the difficult challenges in life. I think the most difficult part for me reading the book was that in order to really recover from grief or overcome grief, and since, I mean, we are so resilient as human beings. We've been losing close people and family members throughout the history of our human race. And so that's one thing we can do is that we can experience the pain of loss and kind of transcend that Brooke Siem: Yeah. Kel: and continue to live fully. Is that when you pathologize the normal range of human emotions, you're not providing that person the opportunity to grow through it and Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: learn from it and feel the pain. Feeling the emotions is often part of the healing process. And so if we think about mental health as the numbing or decreasing of emotions, Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: as if they're a symptom of underlying disease, then we're actually getting in the way of or impairing natural recovery processes. So it's, it's not that surprising that we're fragilizing generations right now. And communicating the message that are incapable of handling what's in front of them. Brooke Siem: Yeah, there's a wonderful philosopher, John O'Donoghue, who I think I'm getting that right, who he has a book called Walking in Wonder that I've been reading lately. And I was just reading this last night. He talks about how when we experience the darkness of being human, whether or not that's fear or sadness or grief or loss or whatever it is, that there is... beacon of sacred light that is given to us during that experience and that when you are given that beacon of sacred light it stays with you and it remains there because the next time you are faced with some horrible human existence that sacred light is there to remind you that you can transcend out of it and that you will if you just honor the fact that the sacred light is there and will always be there. And I think that by medicating our feelings away, what we are doing is robbing people of that sacred light so that when they hit a period where, and everyone does, I mean, everyone, again, I was on antidepressants for 15 years. It didn't make me any less depressed. But what I didn't have was that sacred light to be able to pull myself out of it because I had never been able to receive it. I didn't know how to use it. And that's, I think, what we're robbing people of. I mean, it's like high level, it's kind of spiritual, whatever, but replace sacred light with resiliency. This is something you learn and it makes you a better, stronger, happier, more giving, more appreciative, more grateful person because you really start to understand the fragility and the balance. And we are just... We're taking that away from people and we're seeing the results of it and it's not good. Kel: So we're into our second part of this episode for our audience. And so I think we're going to start heading down the home stretch, but to head down the home stretch, cause we've kept you so long, Brooke, you've been great. I do want to be able to talk about that recovery process. And one of the things that does kind of, um, you know, underlie a lot of the messages is that there, there is some of this spiritual component in part of like meaning making and the way that you begin to. kind of respond to your life. And there's this interesting gentleman who really seems to be, you know, a primary player in being able to support you through some of these dark moments. And he's fascinating character to me, Alan. And I just want to get an idea now that I have you here, is what you think happened there from the way that he was intervening and responding. He was someone who was referred to... to you by your mother, who I think is Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: also a hero here. What was happening? Brooke Siem: Yeah. So Alan is what I would call, I mean, he was a counselor. He wasn't a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but he was a counselor. He helped people work through their problems. And he blended both Eastern and Western modalities together in this sort of, in this very self-compassionate driven way that was all done over the phone. which was very key for me because again, my experience in person with people was bad. I could feel more in tune with myself if I didn't have to think about somebody staring at me eight feet away. You know, I didn't hear the scratch on the paper and wonder what they were writing. You know, I didn't feel like I was being studied. And so it was very important to me, I realized later, to have, to just be on the phone and it wouldn't have worked on Zoom either because there's still that level of... know, feedback, facial feedback, I needed it to be distant. And he worked in a manner that really allowed me to use feelings in my body and metaphor and symbols and whatever random thing came up in my head, as opposed to the actual thing that had happened. Which again, this was so important to me because I had so many memory problems that I couldn't go back to, you know, the What was 15-year-old Brooke feeling like, you know, when you got the call that your father died? I couldn't connect to her at all. What I couldn't connect to was this, you know, very kind of abstract image that would come up in my head of a man getting eaten to death by ants at the bottom of a well. And that was what was coming to my mind as opposed to what 15-year-old Brooke felt like. So a traditional psychotherapist or... CBT therapist or something couldn't deal with that because it didn't make any sense Whereas what Alan did? He said okay. Well, this man is coming up. We don't know who he is or what he's doing there or what the message is It doesn't matter. We're gonna work with him. How's he feeling and then we would start to work through everything together And it allowed me to not only Access parts of my you know, my psyche and my soul that I could not otherwise access through actual events that had happened in my life. But it kind of allowed me to talk about things in a way that wasn't about me, right? We were talking about the man in the well, and the man in the well, I think was some sort of projection. You know, I don't know if it was a collection of memories, and that's just how my brain, you know, made sense in my head. And I mean, memories could have even been the movie I watched, right? Just, it was just the way my brain had put more spiritual situation. I don't know if it was a past life. I don't know if it was just like the lizard brain doing something. It doesn't matter. And we just didn't question it because that's who showed up. And that's what we dealt with. And that was so huge for me because no one had ever given me the freedom to do therapy like that before. It wasn't a method. It wasn't based on a book. It was how do we have compassion for this man, this creature who's coming to you? and how do we make him integrate back into me so we feel like he's healed? And through that process is when I actually started to heal and we did this so many times. I mean, there's like, you know, I could write books on each of the individual ghosts, if you wanna call them, that would come through my head because they were all different and they were all representative of something that I was feeling and that was the way we dealt with it. Kel: I started, and maybe this is the way I was looking at it, I was seeing you as a soul that had previous experiences and that you're just in this body at this time and you have this incredible purpose. And somehow what became accessed was other experiences at other points in your life. That's how I was reading it. I don't know if that's how you meant it, but it felt like it began to, you know, I thought it was an important message about spirituality. I thought it was an important message on how those in the mental health field can get outside of their Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: limited, uh, and restricted training Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: and being able to understand people differently. I mean, I started to see, you know, more in a kind of a divine nature. I think that was integrated earlier too, with just your mom, your mom's Brooke Siem: Yep. Kel: experiences and how she communicated to you. And it just, it seemed like everything that had happened to you in your life was even painful, as painful as it was, there was some greater divine purpose for Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: it all. And, and maybe the reason that you're here right now and we're having this conversation is because you're starting to kind of, uh, live out what, what your purpose is. Brooke Siem: Yeah, maybe. You know, I think it can be frustrating to talk about this aspect of my recovery because people very often like to take the word spiritual and toss it into some woo woo, you know, bucket. Or they want to toss into the religious bucket and just kind of like it's neither here nor there, right? I mean, it doesn't matter. I think that a really good example is wolves. They put some in areas where multiple packs of wolves live, they stay within their own boundaries. So when you actually look at the trackers, there was different colors on them. And you can see these five or six different colors where pack A always stayed within this radius and pack B always stayed within this radius. And they know, they just know that the other ones are there. And so I think another way to think about this is if the word spiritual and divine and all that really doesn't fit with you, well, then let's go to just instinct. Let's go to just our animal instinct and the way that we as animals relate to other people and sense other people. You don't have to have any spiritual experience to know that sometimes you're in a room with 10 people and one person walks in and the whole energy of the room changes, right? Without anyone saying a word. So that is us communicating with other people. Communicating with other people's experiences on a completely unconscious soul level. And in my view of it is that we as humans have been around for a long time and we've put ourselves through a lot of terrible things and there is collective memory of that is encoded into all of us. And I think that some of us are that's coming up a lot more than others. I think some of us are just really feeling all of that. you know, all of these terrible things that have happened. And we just know it's in us, right? We can't say that maybe it wasn't the one bad thing that happened to us. It feels like so much more. And that is actively trying to come out so we can release it and put good back into the world. And for the people who were doing that, I think, you know, they're the ones who are, who've been given this torch and it's coming up to say, hey, let's bring it out. Let's, let's, let's. talk, let's find a way to get all of this out of you so you can go put good back into the world and you can actually transform all this pain into something good. And instead we're scared of those people because we're worried they're going to hurt themselves or they're going to hurt somebody else or they're acting in a way that makes us feel uncomfortable. And so we try and medicate it down and push it away, which only makes it all worse and just continues to perpetuate the cycle of collective. violence and shame, etc. So to me, that's a way we can look at it. That's a very like, let's just talk about it on an instinctual animal level. And, you know, we can put spirituality aside if we need to. Kel: Yeah, there's multiple ways to look at this. I'm kind of a science guy, so I can use actual science words to describe kind of the same concepts like epigenetics. Brooke Siem: Yep, Kel: That Brooke Siem: epigenetics is a great one. Kel: right. It's very much encoded into our DNA generationally Brooke Siem: Yep. Kel: and how the environment responds to us is whether this kind of comes to our, to our experience. And there's a purpose for it. But then, you know, there, there's other things that are really. critical for us to be able to take on new perspectives, because I do think meaning making is really important when you're struggling with your mental health. What about quantum physics? We talk about things like vibing, right? We can feel other people's energy and Brooke Siem: Yeah. Kel: experience around them and that we can, it's our intuition. And there are, if you turn on the radio, there's a frequency there, we don't see it. Our wifi, we don't see it. Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: Are you going to say, you know, we're all beings of matter and energies. So we are in some way constantly experiencing it Once I've started to become more connected to that, I've been able to experience it more with my clients and have developed an intuition that's there. What I loved about Alan's reaction to you is that there was a new relationship to your pain that was developed. And one point he was just laughing at Brooke Siem: Yeah. Kel: the absurdity of it all. And I thought that was just a beautiful moment, you know, and you went on and you started to take steps to kind of overcome what you were going through. Brooke Siem: Yeah. Kel: Brooke, you've been so great and we've kept Brooke Siem: Thank Kel: you for Brooke Siem: you. Kel: so long. I am interested in so many things we didn't get into, like the Chop episode and just, you know. I've got many questions on there. Do you wanna ask me a question? No, no, no. Brooke Siem: Season Kel: Well. Brooke Siem: 32, episode 6, it's a great 40 minutes television, folks. Kel: I watched the entire thing. So hell, they must edit the crap out of that because you're like, they're not tasting that stuff for like 30 seconds. And then that, but it was just what, how did you feel about, well, now I'm not going to ask that because it was another contestant when you dropped the crap. Tell me, because it was just like you're watching the, if you were to freeze frame the way they added it, she's in with she's experiencing with draw. It was like, Brooke Siem: I've been withdrawal during this too. Kel: she was like, she, her face just said, Oh shit. Like Brooke Siem: That's Kel: it was, but Brooke Siem: pretty Kel: it was the funniest Brooke Siem: much it. Kel: moment. I'm like, and then they kept showing the crab just sitting there on the floor. They went back to it over and over Brooke Siem: Zoom Kel: again. Brooke Siem: in. Kel: Yeah. But I thought the barbecue, I love that. What you Brooke Siem: I Kel: did Brooke Siem: mean, Kel: with Brooke Siem: that Kel: that. Brooke Siem: was good. Yeah. Kel: That was really looked really good. Brooke Siem: And then, I mean, I will forever be grateful to the editors of that show for not editing me into the complete and total mess that I actually was on that day. They were very kind. They got some of my more colorful moments without without. getting the ones where I was just like sobbing to my producer and she was like, you need to find a way to calm down. So they didn't put all that in, thank goodness. But yeah, my only goal on Chopped was to get through the first round. And when I dropped that crab, I was like, I Kel: Oh Brooke Siem: mean, Kel: shit. Brooke Siem: well, and like, I had literally taken some of my sessions with Alan just to work on my fears around Chopped. Then so. Because again, I was in withdrawal. That was coming up on the day. So I was like, this is what we're gonna do. I mean, it seems like a very silly way to waste a precious hour, but this is what we're doing. And I remember thinking when I dropped the crab, like all of this work was in vain. None of this matters, which means that none of the work I've done in withdrawal matters. Like, it was this moment of like, oh, it's all gonna be bullshit. Like just. This is how the world ends. And then when I made it through that round, I mean, I was just, I couldn't believe it. And then I kind of took off and did and did well. So it was, it was the most emotional day of my life, which is an incredible thing to say, given that I just wrote a book about the most emotional year of my life. But I've never been in an experience where you go from such, sorry, where you go from such a high to a low to, oh my God, I have to do this again. To being really proud of yourself, to being embarrassed for your business, to being embarrassed for yourself. And then the producer says, well, how do you think you're dead, dad? And feel about this and oh, you have to go cook again in five minutes. And then you're just like, and then someone escorts you to the bathroom and listens to you pee like the whole thing. Kel: Boy, well, your life certainly seems to be an adventure and that was an adventure, you know, as well as your, you know, your remote year, the trips that you made, excellent book. I highly recommend Brooke Siem: Thank you. Kel: it. It's just a good read. You know, it's one of those books that you don't wanna put down and because it's so beautifully written. I'm just really interested in know what you're doing now. There's so many different aspects of who you are. I'm just curious to know what your life. looks like now and then how people can really begin to follow you and, you know, just get in touch with what your current mission is. Brooke Siem: Sure, so you can find me all over the internet at brooksiem, B-R-O-O-K-E-S-I-E-M. And my life now is striking the balance between really just adoring being alive and getting to do all these things that are in some ways so basic and simple, but that I love. Like I paint and I go for walks and I cuddle my dog. And if I can take a nap at two in the afternoon, I will, and I will relish every second of it because there's just this. glory in the fact that I so love being alive and I'm so grateful for it and I want to just enjoy that. And then also at the same time, I want to speak publicly as much on antidepressant withdrawal and depression recovery as possible. So I speak as much as I can to whoever will have me, whether or not that's, you know, I can do corporate work, I do, you know, I'm working on speaking at universities and medical schools and, you know, in contacts with other people panels, I mean, I was at the Richard Fee Foundation, which primarily has to do with ADHD and all the drugs there, you know, so I, I just, it's both, I, you know, and then I still cook for a living too, because there's a lot of really tough conversations I have and there's nothing better to me than having a tough conversation and literally getting to go make cookies and get paid for it. So I have. these kind of little things that I'm balancing, but I hope that over the next, you know, five years, I'm able to really make a strong career speaking on this topic and educating and bringing hope because you know, we talked about a lot of a lot of hard things today. But the takeaway from this is that I love being alive and I was never able to say that. And I, and I don't even recognize the person in that book anymore because I look at a flower or a white butterfly or something and get teary. So that is what the work is for. And that's what you can get to. That's where you can get yourself to if you can figure out a way to take control and help yourself. And so that's the message that I really hope to put out there while also providing actionable resources for people to see if we'd use prescribe and teaching professionals and prescribers how to. identify withdrawal and keep their patients safe. Kel: The book may cause side effects, Brooke Seem, I really do want prescribing physicians, medical professionals, mental health professionals, educators, and parents to read this book. Brooke Siem: Mm-hmm. Kel: You have to understand the impact that these drugs will have on somebody. You cannot, you cannot consent unless you're informed. And the work that Brooke is doing and the Radically Genuine that we are providing valuable information that otherwise you will not get in the process. Many of the doctors still are not yet informed. And we know with this Lexapro approval that they'll just assume the drug is safe and effective. They're just gonna rely on the fact that the FDA approved it or that their medical organization is recommending it in their protocols and they won't even understand the study data. They won't even have access to it. And that's the... That's the unfortunate reality of our current medical system. Brooke, seeing you are an amazing guest for these two episodes and you are absolutely radically genuine and we do appreciate the conversation. Yeah. Thank you. It was really Brooke Siem: Thank Kel: a pleasure to meet you. Brooke Siem: you. Thank you both. It was great to be here. Thank you.