Latest / Podcast on the Brink / POTB 571: Zach Osterman talks Unthinkable to Unstoppable and IU basketball practice observations

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POTB 571: Zach Osterman talks Unthinkable to Unstoppable and IU basketball practice observations · Podcast on the Brink

0:17
Speaker 1: Welcome back to a new episode of Podcast on the Brink,
0:21
Speaker 1: closing out the month of June with one of our
0:26
Speaker 1: favorite recurring guests here on Podcast on a Brinker, good friend,
0:29
Speaker 1: Zach Osherman, IU, insider of the Indian applis Star. You
0:34
Speaker 1: can read his work at indistar dot com before we
0:36
Speaker 1: get to Zach. If you enjoy the show, please leave
0:39
Speaker 1: us a review or rating over on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
0:43
Speaker 1: Do the same over on YouTube. If you like the
0:45
Speaker 1: content that we're providing there, like the video, subscribe to
0:48
Speaker 1: the channel, share the link with another IU fan who
0:50
Speaker 1: might enjoy the content. Appreciate your continued support there, Zach,
0:56
Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. Some exciting news for you
0:58
Speaker 1: and Mike recent the announcement that your book, Unthinkable to
1:03
Speaker 1: Unstoppable How Kurt Signetti and the Indiana Hoosiers Shocked College
1:09
Speaker 1: Football coming this fall September twenty second. It's going to
1:13
Speaker 1: be released. You can pre order the book now over
1:15
Speaker 1: on Amazon, Barnes, and Noble, wherever books are sold. I'm
1:19
Speaker 1: looking forward to getting a chance to read that, Zach,
1:22
Speaker 1: but just wanted to give you opportunity to come on
1:26
Speaker 1: this week and talk about that project, how it came
1:28
Speaker 1: about and kind of what you learned maybe going through
1:32
Speaker 1: the process of putting this together was I know, a
1:34
Speaker 1: world wind process for you, a lot of editing, a
1:36
Speaker 1: lot of tight deadlines. But you, guys, I think have
1:38
Speaker 1: got it all finalized and ready to go here. So
1:41
Speaker 1: looking forward, I know a lot of IU fans are
1:43
Speaker 1: as well to get in their hands and getting a
1:45
Speaker 1: chance to read it.
1:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thanks for first of all, I'm wonderful to
1:50
Speaker 2: join you again, get to see you. I stab my
1:51
Speaker 2: voice back. It was and I don't say this lightly
1:58
Speaker 2: like it was a lay of love in a lot
2:00
Speaker 2: of ways, because it was a lot of work and
2:03
Speaker 2: we were on a tight turnaround because we wanted this
2:06
Speaker 2: to come back in a proximity to the season. As
2:13
Speaker 2: you can imagine the idea of you know, wanting this
2:15
Speaker 2: to be in depth. We didn't want to cut corners,
2:17
Speaker 2: we didn't want to you know, just sort of conduct
2:19
Speaker 2: maybe a couple dozen fresh interviews and then just kind
2:22
Speaker 2: of rehash the season. Like one of the most consistent
2:25
Speaker 2: questions I know, Mike and I've gotten, is is this
2:27
Speaker 2: more than just a game by game sort of recap
2:30
Speaker 2: of the twenty twenty five season and it is much
2:32
Speaker 2: more than that, but we wanted it in a space
2:36
Speaker 2: of time that would allow us to have it out
2:38
Speaker 2: by the coming season, to really capitalize on people's interests
2:42
Speaker 2: in the season just gone. It turned out we didn't
2:45
Speaker 2: pick that date necessarily. It turned out to be serendipity.
2:48
Speaker 2: September twenty second is the beginning of the week of
2:51
Speaker 2: Indiana's Big ten opener. So there is a very sort of,
2:55
Speaker 2: you know, clean kind of lining up between the book
3:00
Speaker 2: comes out and when football season will really start to
3:02
Speaker 2: gather sort of momentum and pace. It was a lot
3:06
Speaker 2: of fun, you know, in the same breath. And I
3:08
Speaker 2: think Mike and I neither Mike and is Isluclaura I
3:10
Speaker 2: had ever written a book before. What to me was
3:14
Speaker 2: fun about it was this was a story I'd already
3:16
Speaker 2: told once. You know, I've joked whenever I've talked about it.
3:21
Speaker 2: We didn't change the score of the Organ game, we
3:23
Speaker 2: didn't move the National championship. You know, everyone knows how
3:26
Speaker 2: the book ends. Everyone knows how the story ends. The
3:30
Speaker 2: goal therefore is to try and get people to be
3:32
Speaker 2: more reflective and you know, sort of more I guess
3:39
Speaker 2: contemplative about their experiences their memories, the stories they remember,
3:45
Speaker 2: the things that they'll tell people twenty years from now
3:49
Speaker 2: about you know, last season and really just Indiana's journey
3:53
Speaker 2: in general under Kurtzignetti, but also to try and do
3:58
Speaker 2: that in a pretty short space of time after the season.
4:00
Speaker 2: And I was struck by how how how many people
4:06
Speaker 2: I think, even with just a few weeks removal from
4:10
Speaker 2: the season itself, from the actual accomplishment, because you and
4:15
Speaker 2: I both know, when you're in the midst especially of
4:16
Speaker 2: a season like that, there is no perspective, There is
4:19
Speaker 2: no what does this mean for the big picture? How
4:22
Speaker 2: will this be remembered in ten, twenty thirty years. It
4:25
Speaker 2: is only the next practice, the next game, the next opponent,
4:30
Speaker 2: the next challenge. What struck me was even given, just
4:36
Speaker 2: for a lot of these people, just a few weeks
4:38
Speaker 2: removal from that journey, how much I think they had
4:43
Speaker 2: come to appreciate, yes, what the accomplishment meant, you know,
4:48
Speaker 2: the breadth of it, the depth of it. But even
4:52
Speaker 2: more fundamentally than that, I think the their understanding that
4:57
Speaker 2: this was something they would be this was something that
5:00
Speaker 2: would follow them for the rest of their lives. Their
5:02
Speaker 2: association with this in the same way that we talk about,
5:05
Speaker 2: you know, the players from the nineteen eighty Olympic hockey team,
5:08
Speaker 2: you know, in the same way. Like the comparison I've
5:11
Speaker 2: used a lot, not a lot, but a handful of
5:13
Speaker 2: times in writing and speaking about last season. Is Roger
5:17
Speaker 2: Banister running the four minute mile. We thought the four
5:19
Speaker 2: minute mile was an anatomical impossibility. Then someone did it.
5:23
Speaker 2: Six weeks later, somebody ran it faster. Nobody remembers that
5:26
Speaker 2: person's name. It was an Australian. I can't think of
5:30
Speaker 2: his name off the top of my head. Because the
5:32
Speaker 2: point isn't running who can run the fastest. It's proving
5:35
Speaker 2: something believed to be impossible could be achieved. And I
5:41
Speaker 2: think there was there was such a there was such
5:45
Speaker 2: an appreciation from these individuals. However they touched this, whether
5:49
Speaker 2: they were a starter on the twenty five team, whether
5:52
Speaker 2: they'd been with Kurt Signetty for five years, whether they
5:54
Speaker 2: only transferred to Indiana, you know, in January of twenty five,
5:57
Speaker 2: whether they were only there for the twenty four team, whatever,
6:01
Speaker 2: whether they were you know, we talked to Scott Doles
6:03
Speaker 2: so many times, a long time administrator at IU. We
6:06
Speaker 2: talked to to Pam Whitten, who obviously had a completely
6:09
Speaker 2: different sort of perspective as a university president, as someone
6:12
Speaker 2: who you know, had built football up at Kennesoe State
6:15
Speaker 2: and really came to Indiana with, among other things, the
6:18
Speaker 2: same sort of goal in mind. Here, how much everyone
6:22
Speaker 2: could appreciate, you know, just what this meant, the journey,
6:27
Speaker 2: the accomplishment, the things that the experiences everyone shared. And
6:34
Speaker 2: I would like to think that we did a you know,
6:36
Speaker 2: at least a reasonable job. I think a good job
6:38
Speaker 2: of painting that whole landscape. You know. The book opens
6:42
Speaker 2: with even some context, and I use history for people
6:45
Speaker 2: who might pick up the book. Hopefully many people pick
6:47
Speaker 2: up the book that won't know Indiana's history, and we'll
6:50
Speaker 2: need to understand the times when it seemed like I
6:53
Speaker 2: US football was close to something like this, and why
6:56
Speaker 2: each of those times it sort of failed to kick on.
7:00
Speaker 2: That helps you contextualize what made this different. There's a
7:04
Speaker 2: lot of exploration, as Kurtzigetti himself has talked about being
7:07
Speaker 2: very important of you know, why these how these quasi
7:11
Speaker 2: revolutionary changes in college athletics helped him affect this change
7:16
Speaker 2: to Indiana football so rapidly, just so so efficiently and
7:22
Speaker 2: so effectively. So the book really does try to sort
7:26
Speaker 2: of take everything in with the wide angle lens, but
7:30
Speaker 2: to funnel it all into and filter it all through
7:33
Speaker 2: to this story of here's how Indiana did what was
7:36
Speaker 2: perceived to be impossible, and that's one of the ways
7:39
Speaker 2: we wound up at the title and thinkable to unstoppable.
7:44
Speaker 1: So you mentioned obviously this is the first time you've
7:46
Speaker 1: written a book, although I will correct you you once
7:50
Speaker 1: authored a project that I was involved with, the Maple
7:53
Speaker 1: Street Press season previews for IU basketball the early days
7:57
Speaker 1: of Tom Creane. Those were that was a much different
8:03
Speaker 1: time in IU basketball. Jokes aside. I'm curious, you know,
8:06
Speaker 1: first book you've written, you're co authoring it with someone.
8:10
Speaker 1: How do you and Mike go about figuring out this
8:14
Speaker 1: project in terms of who's going to do what? And
8:16
Speaker 1: how was the collaboration between the two? Obviously, you guys
8:20
Speaker 1: both covered the season on a day to day basis
8:23
Speaker 1: last season and had a great working knowledge.
8:26
Speaker 2: Of everything that was going on.
8:27
Speaker 1: But was it how was that collaboration process with you
8:31
Speaker 1: and Mike and figuring out who was going to tackle
8:33
Speaker 1: which topics and kind of obviously, because I think what again,
8:37
Speaker 1: I've never written a book, but I figure when someone
8:40
Speaker 1: sits down to write a book, they have an idea
8:42
Speaker 1: and they just kind of start, you know, flushing the
8:45
Speaker 1: ideas out.
8:46
Speaker 2: But obviously, you guys doing this together. Was that was
8:48
Speaker 2: that a challenge at all?
8:51
Speaker 1: Or and kind of how did you go about splitting
8:53
Speaker 1: out the responsibilities for who would do what?
8:56
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean it was a challenge and it wasn't.
9:00
Speaker 2: Mike and I obviously have worked kind of side by
9:02
Speaker 2: side for the last three years. You know, people may
9:05
Speaker 2: know this, they may not. The Star in the Herald
9:07
Speaker 2: Times roun by the same parent company, so we you know,
9:10
Speaker 2: we work for different papers, but really we are our colleagues.
9:13
Speaker 2: You know, for the most part, we travel on the
9:14
Speaker 2: road together to road games, and you know, we very
9:18
Speaker 2: much coordinate our coverage, you know, sort of step by
9:21
Speaker 2: step through any season, so that working relationships are already
9:26
Speaker 2: very strong. I think we also brought different, you know,
9:29
Speaker 2: strength to this. Mike was incredibly organized around things like
9:32
Speaker 2: tracking down interviews, setting things up. I could provide a
9:35
Speaker 2: lot more historical context. You know, we wrote most of
9:38
Speaker 2: the book literally together, like in the same room together.
9:41
Speaker 2: The pieces that we tackled on our own, Like, for example,
9:45
Speaker 2: Mike was at Heisman weekend, I wasn't there. We split
9:47
Speaker 2: that up and I went to the Kentucky game in Lexington.
9:50
Speaker 2: So Mike really tackled a lot of that, and then
9:52
Speaker 2: I followed back through helping with editing and massaging things.
9:56
Speaker 2: I wrote a lot of the historical context pieces, you know,
10:00
Speaker 2: even leading into you know, there's there's kind of a
10:04
Speaker 2: piece of the book that really zooms in on the
10:07
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three season, because that obviously informs so much
10:11
Speaker 2: of what Kurt Signetti is walking into and how Indiana
10:15
Speaker 2: sort of finds its way to Kurt Signetti out of
10:17
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three into the winner of twenty three into
10:19
Speaker 2: twenty four. Because again, in certain situations, we each sort
10:25
Speaker 2: of had our own strengths in terms of our perspectives
10:27
Speaker 2: and our experience and our knowledge. But for the most part,
10:29
Speaker 2: you know, we conducted every interview that we could together,
10:33
Speaker 2: and we wrote just about every chapter that we could together,
10:36
Speaker 2: and we broke apart things like editing and all that
10:39
Speaker 2: as best we could together as well. So I mean
10:42
Speaker 2: it was you know that required obviously a level of
10:45
Speaker 2: coordination between us that sometimes was difficult if maybe one
10:48
Speaker 2: of us, you know, had to go to something for
10:50
Speaker 2: our kids, or somebody was out of town for the
10:52
Speaker 2: weekend or whatever. But at the same time, it also
10:56
Speaker 2: allowed us to couple or to cover you know, double ground.
10:59
Speaker 2: Like we got one particular interview very very late in
11:04
Speaker 2: the process. I was at Disney World with my kids
11:08
Speaker 2: and was not in a position to you know, to
11:12
Speaker 2: affect that interview. Mike took it on himself, and then
11:16
Speaker 2: you know, together we sort of, you know, he added
11:18
Speaker 2: the pieces off that interview into the manuscript. We were
11:21
Speaker 2: able to sort of massage them and fact check them
11:23
Speaker 2: together and all those things. So the point isn't you
11:26
Speaker 2: know it, on a sort of working process level, it
11:31
Speaker 2: required a little bit more coordination at times. But on
11:34
Speaker 2: the other hand, we were also able to cover a
11:36
Speaker 2: lot more ground. And because we both had the lived
11:39
Speaker 2: experience of these last three years, each of us and
11:43
Speaker 2: then you know me further back with you than that,
11:46
Speaker 2: there was also just a lot of context and a
11:49
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of sort of perspective and precedent
11:54
Speaker 2: that we didn't you know, It's not like one of
11:57
Speaker 2: us had to educate the other for us to understand
12:00
Speaker 2: why certain things were important why certain conversations needed to
12:04
Speaker 2: be had a certain way, or you know, how this
12:06
Speaker 2: needed to be framed as compared to that, And that
12:09
Speaker 2: made I think, I think that more than compensated for
12:12
Speaker 2: any kind of logistical Hey, let's make sure we can
12:15
Speaker 2: be in the same room to write this chapter or
12:17
Speaker 2: that chapter, that chapter. You know, those were easy trade
12:21
Speaker 2: offs for the advantages that I think the two of
12:24
Speaker 2: us doing this together were able to realize.
12:28
Speaker 1: Obviously, Signetti is the engine that makes this whole thing go.
12:32
Speaker 1: Without him, there's you know, obviously not this era of
12:36
Speaker 1: football and the success of its found. Is there anything
12:39
Speaker 1: that you learned about Obviously you've covered him for two
12:43
Speaker 1: years and know a ton about him, had asked him
12:45
Speaker 1: plenty of questions, interviewed him plenty of times. But going
12:49
Speaker 1: through all these interviews, and I'm sure you talked to
12:52
Speaker 1: him at least briefly at some point for the book,
12:55
Speaker 1: was anything you learned knew about him that maybe you
12:58
Speaker 1: didn't know going in, Or are things that were themes
13:01
Speaker 1: from talking to players former players that maybe that you
13:07
Speaker 1: learned that didn't he didn't know before.
13:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I don't know how much we didn't
13:15
Speaker 2: know before but I think there was just a lot
13:17
Speaker 2: more exploration of things that maybe we'd only touched on
13:23
Speaker 2: to a certain level, like, for example, the process that
13:26
Speaker 2: brought him to Indiana, you know. And I don't want
13:29
Speaker 2: to I don't want to give too much away. I
13:31
Speaker 2: will be a shameless tease on some of this stuff.
13:34
Speaker 2: You know, in the book, we can tell you who
13:36
Speaker 2: the other two finalists were in Scott Dolson's search. We
13:39
Speaker 2: can tell you something that I think. I think I'll
13:42
Speaker 2: share this too. I think Kurtzignetti has said this before
13:44
Speaker 2: that there was kind of a moment when he said,
13:46
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm gonna take this job, you know,
13:49
Speaker 2: like he'd gone through the process, he thought he had
13:50
Speaker 2: a good shot. He said, even if they offer, I
13:52
Speaker 2: don't know if I'm gonna take it. You know, there's
13:55
Speaker 2: a a something that, again I think we've explored in
13:59
Speaker 2: different ways, but captured a little bit better when we
14:03
Speaker 2: talked to the coach, Paul Tortorella, who he left, who
14:07
Speaker 2: was his defense coordinator at IUP is now the head
14:10
Speaker 2: coach at IUP was hired when Signetti left, and we
14:14
Speaker 2: talked to Tortorella about how you know that the skill
14:16
Speaker 2: Signetti has in managing money and roster dollars and resources
14:22
Speaker 2: when a lot of head coaches want a GM for
14:25
Speaker 2: that or recruiting personnel to handle that. That he probably
14:30
Speaker 2: developed a decent amount of that skill at IU Pennsylvania,
14:33
Speaker 2: where he wasn't working with a full complement of scholarships
14:36
Speaker 2: and he was handing out partials and he had to
14:37
Speaker 2: evaluate players and you know, decide a why this player
14:41
Speaker 2: gets thirty and this player fifty in this player one
14:43
Speaker 2: hundred and then b how to manage a locker room
14:46
Speaker 2: where not everybody is getting the same amount of money.
14:48
Speaker 2: It's just back then it was scholarship money. Now it
14:50
Speaker 2: is it is essentially a paycheck depending, you know, no
14:53
Speaker 2: matter how you want to look at it. So it
14:56
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if we you know, we
14:59
Speaker 2: probably turned over a couple of stones that really hadn't
15:03
Speaker 2: been before in sort of his childhood and his upbringing.
15:06
Speaker 2: And you know, he told us the story of how
15:09
Speaker 2: he met his wife and and things like that. But
15:12
Speaker 2: in the same breath, I think a lot more that
15:14
Speaker 2: is a going deeper on some of those you know,
15:19
Speaker 2: some of those key moments, whether it was in his
15:21
Speaker 2: career or the process that brought him to Indiana or
15:25
Speaker 2: something once he got to Indiana that was crucial to
15:28
Speaker 2: his success or b at very least I think the
15:32
Speaker 2: book is you know that it's it's a worn but
15:36
Speaker 2: you know, tested cliche. When you're going through this process,
15:39
Speaker 2: certainly as a reporter, but I think probably as a
15:41
Speaker 2: fan too, you think a lot about what you're seeing
15:44
Speaker 2: in terms of individual trees. You're thinking about, you know,
15:48
Speaker 2: I read this story about CURTSS ninety's process. I read
15:51
Speaker 2: this story about Fernando Mendoza's mom, I read this story
15:53
Speaker 2: about you know, this great column about the organ game whatever.
15:58
Speaker 2: You don't see the forest, and you know, if the
16:01
Speaker 2: book captures at least at least I think it does
16:05
Speaker 2: captures the quote unquote forest, the whole landscape of how
16:10
Speaker 2: where did Indiana come from? How did Indiana get here?
16:13
Speaker 2: How did Indiana achieve this remarkable thing? Then it also
16:17
Speaker 2: captures a much more holistic view. I think of a
16:19
Speaker 2: lot of these people's their own stories, their own journeys,
16:24
Speaker 2: and the impact those had on the wider Indiana story.
16:29
Speaker 2: And I think none more so than Kurt Signetti, Because
16:33
Speaker 2: you know, there are a ton of remarkable stories out
16:35
Speaker 2: of the last three years of value football, and there
16:38
Speaker 2: are a ton of remarkable stories among those players, you
16:41
Speaker 2: know that helped Indiana win a national championship. But if
16:45
Speaker 2: you talk to anybody, they'll tell you the number one
16:48
Speaker 2: ingredient and all this is Kurt Signetti and trying to
16:51
Speaker 2: explain how and why that is, I think is one
16:54
Speaker 2: of the things the book does very well.
16:56
Speaker 1: Just last thing, and I want to talk a little
16:58
Speaker 1: bit about the practice that we got a chance to watch.
17:00
Speaker 1: Actually I've watched two, but you for basketball, you watched
17:03
Speaker 1: last week. But just signatty one more thing on him,
17:07
Speaker 1: just because he's so fascinating and just you know, I
17:10
Speaker 1: don't cover football nearly like you do, you know, just
17:12
Speaker 1: kind of from the the outside.
17:15
Speaker 2: And here and there.
17:16
Speaker 1: But do you think he ever really like let his
17:20
Speaker 1: guard down after they won the championship and enjoyed this
17:23
Speaker 1: for a moment and kind of appreciated what they were
17:27
Speaker 1: able to accomplish because obviously once springball and everything started
17:32
Speaker 1: back up, he was onto getting ready for next season.
17:36
Speaker 1: But it's just so remarkable what they were able to do.
17:41
Speaker 1: And the public persona of him is always you know,
17:45
Speaker 1: onto the next thing. Process driven all you know, all
17:48
Speaker 1: the sayings that he likes to have, and obviously they
17:51
Speaker 1: live those sayings because that's part of the reason why
17:54
Speaker 1: they're successful. But do you get the sense at all
17:56
Speaker 1: that he ever kind of took a moment after they
17:59
Speaker 1: won appreciate what they were able to do, or was
18:02
Speaker 1: it always just kind of onto the next thing and
18:04
Speaker 1: that's kind of what makes him so great.
18:07
Speaker 2: No, I think he absolutely did. And you know, I
18:10
Speaker 2: don't know if there's like just one moment when you know,
18:15
Speaker 2: we certainly didn't uncover one where he's you know, he's
18:17
Speaker 2: got there like champagne and cigar in hand and the
18:20
Speaker 2: music's playing and the confetti's falling. I don't think that's
18:23
Speaker 2: I don't think that's necessarily how he enjoys it. I
18:25
Speaker 2: don't think that's necessarily how any coach enjoys it. You know,
18:28
Speaker 2: first of all, any coach will tell you that, you know,
18:32
Speaker 2: the coaches who have a longevity of success are the
18:35
Speaker 2: ones that appreciate the process more than they appreciate the result.
18:38
Speaker 2: Because ultimately, I think it was Billy Donnovan I heard
18:40
Speaker 2: kind of talk about this once, like he had to
18:42
Speaker 2: come to a point in his career where he came
18:45
Speaker 2: to realize, if all I care about is the result,
18:47
Speaker 2: I'm gonna hate my job ninety nine percent of the
18:49
Speaker 2: time because somebody else is gonna win a national champion
18:52
Speaker 2: in Florida, somebody else is gonna win a national championship
18:54
Speaker 2: almost all the time. If all that matters is winning
18:57
Speaker 2: a national title, then I'm gonna be miserable that the process,
19:01
Speaker 2: I think, And I think this is part of the
19:03
Speaker 2: reason why Signetti is able to turn the page so quickly,
19:05
Speaker 2: is because the process is what's important to him. He
19:08
Speaker 2: wants to just watch more football, you know, break down
19:11
Speaker 2: more film, develop more, you know, wrinkles and x'es and o's,
19:14
Speaker 2: developed players more, et cetera. But I think there were
19:18
Speaker 2: things that were important to him that think he enjoyed,
19:19
Speaker 2: you know, like and this wasn't even like we mentioned
19:21
Speaker 2: this specifically in the book, but for people who were
19:24
Speaker 2: at the Peachball press conference the day before the game,
19:27
Speaker 2: the second game against Oregon in Atlanta, somebody asked him
19:31
Speaker 2: kind of tongue in cheek, like do you ever smile?
19:35
Speaker 2: Because of course it became kind of a joke, you know,
19:37
Speaker 2: a running joke. As Signetti moved more and more into
19:39
Speaker 2: the national consciousness last season, just that that sort of
19:43
Speaker 2: dour expression that he often wears on the sideline and
19:46
Speaker 2: the hands on hips stance and everything, and for a second,
19:49
Speaker 2: Signette just kind of waved it off. And then I think, actually,
19:52
Speaker 2: and this this was again, this is the press conference, Yeah,
19:54
Speaker 2: with Dan Lanning. I actually think it did actually strike
19:57
Speaker 2: a bit of a nerve for him because he actually
20:03
Speaker 2: kind of fired back and he said, well, hold on,
20:05
Speaker 2: like I smile plenty. You may not see it because
20:08
Speaker 2: I'm serious when I'm doing the job, but like you know,
20:11
Speaker 2: I smile when on with my family. I smile when
20:14
Speaker 2: on with my grandkids. His point was like, just because
20:18
Speaker 2: you don't see it doesn't mean that you get to
20:20
Speaker 2: decide this is who I am essentially, And one of
20:24
Speaker 2: the things the book noted was how important it was
20:28
Speaker 2: for him that his family was basically at every one
20:30
Speaker 2: of these moments. You know that his kids I think,
20:33
Speaker 2: I think he has one Grandchriald at this point, that
20:37
Speaker 2: he was able to share that with his family like
20:39
Speaker 2: every single step of the way. And you know, keep
20:42
Speaker 2: in mind, this is someone not that you know, we
20:44
Speaker 2: always say, O, family is so important, and family's important
20:46
Speaker 2: to all of us, of course, but you know, bear
20:49
Speaker 2: in mind this was someone who, you know, football was
20:53
Speaker 2: a family business for him. You know, he patterns so
20:57
Speaker 2: much of his coaching career off of his father. His
21:00
Speaker 2: brother's also a coach. He played football. It's you know it,
21:05
Speaker 2: this is this sport is deeply interwoven with the story
21:09
Speaker 2: of his family, and so family is incredibly important to him.
21:12
Speaker 2: And I think I think there were you know, moments when, yes,
21:17
Speaker 2: he was able to enjoy it. I think, like any coach,
21:21
Speaker 2: there will always be the pull of what's next, because
21:24
Speaker 2: that's just how coaches are wired, and because to some extent,
21:27
Speaker 2: I think that's the only way you can succeed as
21:30
Speaker 2: a head coach is to is to just give yourself
21:32
Speaker 2: that ability to enjoy what's next, the next challenge, the
21:35
Speaker 2: next process, whatever. But I do think he you know,
21:39
Speaker 2: I think he came to really appreciate what Indiana had achieved.
21:44
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, to a certain extent too,
21:47
Speaker 2: I think he came to appreciate what it conveyed to
21:49
Speaker 2: him on too, him to be able to you know,
21:53
Speaker 2: have a voice within the game even a little bit more,
21:56
Speaker 2: to be able to make certain assertions and have people
21:58
Speaker 2: sit up and listen, like for example, and this is
22:00
Speaker 2: mentioned in the book that you know, his his belief
22:05
Speaker 2: that the twenty fourteen doesn't get nearly enough credit for
22:08
Speaker 2: what it achieved and how that affected would happened in
22:10
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. So the point is, I think the
22:13
Speaker 2: answer to your question is, yes, I do think he
22:14
Speaker 2: enjoyed it. I just did he enjoy it the way
22:17
Speaker 2: you or I might enjoy it in terms of you know,
22:20
Speaker 2: the you know, the champagne and the cigars, and the
22:23
Speaker 2: victory tour and two weeks of banquets and things like that. No,
22:26
Speaker 2: I think I do believe the man when he said,
22:29
Speaker 2: on that freezing cold Saturday in Bloomington. Chapter three starts
22:32
Speaker 2: tomorrow that in is mine that Sunday was snowstorm's coming.
22:38
Speaker 2: I'm gonna bunker in and watch film because next season
22:41
Speaker 2: starts now.
22:42
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, if you haven't a chance to yet, make
22:45
Speaker 1: sure you pre order the book so support the work
22:49
Speaker 1: of Zach and Mike, and they poured a lot into
22:52
Speaker 1: this book. Unthinkable to Unstoppable, available now for pre order
22:57
Speaker 1: over on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, comes out to umber
23:00
Speaker 1: twenty seconds. So looking forward to that Zach. Before we
23:02
Speaker 1: wrap up this episode, wanted to take the time we
23:06
Speaker 1: had left to talk about the open practice that we
23:10
Speaker 1: were at together last week and Bloomington's that right next
23:13
Speaker 1: to you had a chance to watch. I think it
23:15
Speaker 1: was about two hours of the.
23:18
Speaker 2: Longest year in practice I've seen. I mean, I mean
23:20
Speaker 2: you've watched. I think I've probably watched a half dozen now,
23:23
Speaker 2: which is like three times as many as I think
23:25
Speaker 2: I watched across the Calvin years, Tom Crane, Archie Miller
23:29
Speaker 2: and Mike Woodson ten years. But I mean for the
23:31
Speaker 2: most part, they were always you know, quick, efficient, a
23:35
Speaker 2: lot of the same stuff whatever. I mean, this was, Yeah,
23:37
Speaker 2: this was much more substantial.
23:39
Speaker 1: What did I mean kind of an open question, but
23:42
Speaker 1: what what did you what did you think?
23:44
Speaker 2: What were your big takeaways?
23:45
Speaker 1: I mean, speaking for you know, I've written quite a
23:49
Speaker 1: bit over the last couple of weeks on because I
23:52
Speaker 1: had a chance to watch a couple of them, and
23:53
Speaker 1: both pretty similar just in terms of you know, the
23:56
Speaker 1: second was a little longer than the first, but seems
23:59
Speaker 1: like obviously don't want to make any projections or anything
24:04
Speaker 1: like that based on practices in June, But to me,
24:08
Speaker 1: the biggest takeaway is the talent level does seem to
24:13
Speaker 1: have increased. I don't know how much, but there seems
24:18
Speaker 1: to be a better collection of pieces here. As last
24:21
Speaker 1: season was so focused on building around Lamar, Wilkerson and Tucker,
24:26
Speaker 1: debries and question marks in the front court seem to
24:30
Speaker 1: have been answered. So curious just kind of what you
24:33
Speaker 1: thought watching those two hours last week. He got a
24:37
Speaker 1: chance to talk to a couple of players afterwards as well,
24:39
Speaker 1: and I think we'll get a chance to watch maybe
24:40
Speaker 1: one more here coming up in the next couple of weeks,
24:43
Speaker 1: before that exhibition game in as Simply Hall on July fifteenth.
24:47
Speaker 1: But I know everyone's looking forward to football season, but
24:51
Speaker 1: we've also got a ton of basketball stuff going on
24:53
Speaker 1: here over the next month or so.
24:54
Speaker 2: And just kind of curious to hear what you thought
24:57
Speaker 2: of that practice. I thought the thing, and I'm sort
25:03
Speaker 2: of stealing because Mike and I talked because like you,
25:06
Speaker 2: and Mike was able to go to Mike was able
25:09
Speaker 2: to go to both of them practices. I was still
25:12
Speaker 2: recovering from my ton selectomy for the first one, So
25:16
Speaker 2: I'm kind of stealing Mike's point that we talked about
25:18
Speaker 2: on the podcast last week, but I agreed with it
25:21
Speaker 2: when I got a chance, just because we talked, talked
25:24
Speaker 2: about the practice. You would have watched that Mike watch
25:27
Speaker 2: that I did. And then we went in and saw
25:29
Speaker 2: the same practice, all three of us last Thursday, and
25:32
Speaker 2: I found myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Mike when I got
25:35
Speaker 2: in front of this team, which is, you just can't
25:36
Speaker 2: look past the two bigs. You know, Yukatoblu is huge,
25:42
Speaker 2: but on the other but in the same breath, I
25:45
Speaker 2: don't think he looks like someone who would be listed
25:48
Speaker 2: at seven two eighty, Like I think you would expect
25:51
Speaker 2: someone who like, for lack of a more artful word,
25:54
Speaker 2: someone who lumbers more than he does, like he is
25:57
Speaker 2: very light on his feet for how big he is,
26:00
Speaker 2: but the presence is undeniably there. And then Aiden Cherrell
26:03
Speaker 2: is I mean, listen, it's one practice. Like I'm not
26:08
Speaker 2: trying to get crazy out ahead of myself, but like
26:11
Speaker 2: I in terms of skill bigs the players that came
26:17
Speaker 2: to mind, at least from an Indiana comparison perspective, and he,
26:20
Speaker 2: you know, time will tell you, I think he might
26:22
Speaker 2: in some ways be better than these two players in
26:24
Speaker 2: some ways not you know, maybe different really more than
26:28
Speaker 2: better or worse. But Juwan Morgan and Christian Wafford were
26:31
Speaker 2: the two that you know in terms of the ability
26:34
Speaker 2: to go inside and be comfortable in tight space, physical game,
26:39
Speaker 2: get up and rebound, even going going at Yugatoglu with
26:43
Speaker 2: the ball. But then also the you know, the the athleticism,
26:48
Speaker 2: the fluidity, the movement to be able to get outside
26:51
Speaker 2: of the three point line, move with him without the ball,
26:54
Speaker 2: find his offense there. Those are the two things. Like
26:59
Speaker 2: those two players, I felt it very hard to just
27:01
Speaker 2: kind of look past them. Because I wrote this earlier
27:05
Speaker 2: in the summer, I stand by it. My biggest question,
27:10
Speaker 2: bar none about this team is I think this team
27:15
Speaker 2: makes sense. I think the talent level is upgraded almost
27:17
Speaker 2: across the board. I think you know this team is
27:21
Speaker 2: head and shoulders better than last year's team. I thought,
27:25
Speaker 2: even if you want to talk about like other observations,
27:28
Speaker 2: I thought you could tell it a demonstrable difference in
27:31
Speaker 2: just sort of the tenor of that practice because you
27:33
Speaker 2: had a unlike a year ago. And I'm not knocking
27:37
Speaker 2: last year's team for this because it's not these it's
27:40
Speaker 2: not these guys' fault. They didn't have this experience necessarily,
27:42
Speaker 2: but that you were looking at a team that was
27:45
Speaker 2: composed almost entirely of high major experienced players you know
27:49
Speaker 2: from from your from Trent Sicily, who I think is
27:52
Speaker 2: your your loan second year player, if I'm not mistaken
27:55
Speaker 2: on up, every single one of these guys had practiced
28:00
Speaker 2: at a high major level, you know, conditioned at a
28:03
Speaker 2: high major level, competed at a high major level before
28:06
Speaker 2: they got to Indiana, And so there was such an
28:09
Speaker 2: understanding of the energy, the urgency, the sharpness, how you
28:14
Speaker 2: move seamlessly from one drill to the next, no wasted movement,
28:18
Speaker 2: no wasted effort, things like that. I think all of
28:21
Speaker 2: that makes sense. The biggest question I have is very simply,
28:25
Speaker 2: Daren Devrez has never coached a team like this. You know,
28:28
Speaker 2: go all the way back through his tenure, go all
28:31
Speaker 2: the way back to who his coaching mentors were, and
28:33
Speaker 2: I know that that as time goes on, Dana Altman
28:36
Speaker 2: probably starts, because he has access to it at Oregon,
28:39
Speaker 2: starts introducing a little bit more sort of skilled size,
28:43
Speaker 2: if you want to say. And you know, you think
28:44
Speaker 2: obviously it didn't wind up kind of working on the end,
28:46
Speaker 2: but like the last two years, he's been starting Kwame
28:48
Speaker 2: Evans next to Nate Biddle, like Oregon has been playing
28:52
Speaker 2: something more recognizable as modern two big basketball. But so
28:57
Speaker 2: much of Devree's career has been really driven more by
29:02
Speaker 2: the philosophies of building teams like the one we saw
29:07
Speaker 2: last year, where you play a kind of a swingman
29:11
Speaker 2: or maybe even in certain situations you would say small
29:13
Speaker 2: ball for around three guards with one defensive presence and
29:20
Speaker 2: or offensive skilled center. This team is going to look
29:26
Speaker 2: very different, you know, and I don't you know, I
29:28
Speaker 2: don't know how much really at this point we can
29:31
Speaker 2: expect to see Clemen Sokolov, the seven footer from Germany.
29:34
Speaker 2: He's not with the team yet. That's not super unsurprising,
29:37
Speaker 2: you know. European guys sometimes have to come over it
29:39
Speaker 2: in a different timetable. But if he's not here now,
29:43
Speaker 2: then you would imagine it's going to be hard for
29:44
Speaker 2: him unless he just turns up in his ultra skilled
29:47
Speaker 2: to sort of break into like a twelve to fifteen
29:49
Speaker 2: minutes a night kind of you know, role at least
29:53
Speaker 2: early on, which means we're probably still going to see
29:55
Speaker 2: some small ball right when one of those two bigs
29:57
Speaker 2: has to go to the bench. We're probably still going
29:58
Speaker 2: to see some you know, some trans Sisley at the
30:01
Speaker 2: four or maybe some Von Carvella at the four, something
30:03
Speaker 2: like that. Apparently it's Carvel and not Carvalla. I feel
30:05
Speaker 2: that I've been pronouncing it wrong for a year. But
30:10
Speaker 2: this team is going to you know, sort of it's
30:13
Speaker 2: going to go or not with Marcus Burton at the point.
30:17
Speaker 2: And that's the other big question. And those two bigs
30:20
Speaker 2: and Daren Devrees I think did a good job of
30:24
Speaker 2: building this team this way, but now he's got to
30:28
Speaker 2: prove that as a coach he can coach this kind
30:30
Speaker 2: of team. And I'm not saying he can't. I'm just
30:32
Speaker 2: saying we don't know what that looks like because he's
30:34
Speaker 2: never had to do it before. And so when I
30:36
Speaker 2: say I can't look past those two bigs, forgive the
30:38
Speaker 2: rambling answer. It really is not just their size, their skill,
30:44
Speaker 2: their proven ability at this level though that's very, very important,
30:48
Speaker 2: and I think a very big piece of why I
30:50
Speaker 2: would be more bullish in Indiana this year last year,
30:54
Speaker 2: but also because you know, the last sort of step
31:00
Speaker 2: to me is just proving that this coach and this
31:02
Speaker 2: staff can find a winning formula with this group, because
31:06
Speaker 2: if they can, I do think this team could make
31:08
Speaker 2: some noise.
31:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of the opposite of last year, just
31:11
Speaker 1: in terms of the personnel, where last year we knew
31:15
Speaker 1: what to expect on a given night from Lamar Wilkerson
31:18
Speaker 1: for the most part, but didn't really know what they
31:19
Speaker 1: were going to get from the front core to the
31:21
Speaker 1: point guard. This year, it kind of feels different than
31:23
Speaker 1: the standpoint of you know, for the most part, I
31:27
Speaker 1: feel like what you're going to get out of Marcus Burton,
31:30
Speaker 1: and you know, the bigs are going to be productive
31:33
Speaker 1: because they've done at the high major level. So I
31:35
Speaker 1: think if they can get consistency out of two of
31:38
Speaker 1: the three of moosed off, Bryce Lindsay and Darren Harris,
31:44
Speaker 1: you don't need those guys to be even thirteen twelve
31:48
Speaker 1: thirteen point a night scorers. You just need them to
31:51
Speaker 1: be you know, eight to ten points a night. And
31:53
Speaker 1: you know, I have a couple of them shoot mid
31:55
Speaker 1: to high thirties three point percentage, and I think with
31:59
Speaker 1: what they should be able to expect with Burton and
32:02
Speaker 1: then Cheron Nigatogulu, you have a just a more balanced roster.
32:06
Speaker 1: It felt like there were so many times last season
32:08
Speaker 1: where you know, Wilkerson could go out and get twenty,
32:11
Speaker 1: but who else was going to get you eight or
32:13
Speaker 1: ten on a given night? And it wasn't necessarily going
32:15
Speaker 1: to be Read Bailey, it wasn't necessarily going to be
32:17
Speaker 1: Connor in Wright. So you needed, you know, an occasional
32:20
Speaker 1: big game from a Nick Dorn or Tucket of Reeveze
32:22
Speaker 1: to play well consistently, which didn't always happen. I just
32:25
Speaker 1: feel like there's more guys who are proven at this
32:28
Speaker 1: level that should be able to help. But I think
32:32
Speaker 1: being set at the point guard and being set in
32:34
Speaker 1: the post is a pretty good place to start when
32:36
Speaker 1: building a roster.
32:37
Speaker 2: No, I think that's fair. And listen, I mean you're
32:39
Speaker 2: gonna you're gonna need some more optimal outcome shooting wise too.
32:42
Speaker 2: Like Darren Harris, you can see the player that out
32:46
Speaker 2: of high school we said was going to go be
32:48
Speaker 2: a sharp shooter at Duke, but he wasn't. And I'm
32:51
Speaker 2: not trying to knock him. I'm just I don't it's
32:53
Speaker 2: not unfair to point out that across two seasons at
32:56
Speaker 2: Duke he shot a little under thirty one percent from
32:59
Speaker 2: three on nine one attempt. So that's also that's not
33:01
Speaker 2: like a small sample size. But you can also see,
33:05
Speaker 2: you know, like the he catches the ball high, he
33:07
Speaker 2: releases it quick, his form is really good, like why
33:10
Speaker 2: he has the tools to be a high level shooter.
33:12
Speaker 2: Most Staff and Lindsay are both players that you know,
33:14
Speaker 2: thirty five thirty six percent three point shooters at the
33:17
Speaker 2: previous stops. You need at least that here, I mean,
33:21
Speaker 2: if not maybe a little bit better than that, if
33:23
Speaker 2: you can get it. Even Burton, I think is you know,
33:27
Speaker 2: you'd like to see him shoot a little better. I
33:28
Speaker 2: think more than that. If I'm if I'm Indiana and
33:33
Speaker 2: I'm looking at Marcus Burton, I think the question you have,
33:37
Speaker 2: more than anything else is just, you know, can you
33:40
Speaker 2: find the right sort of balance for him? Because in
33:45
Speaker 2: his experience over his time at Notre Dame, there are
33:50
Speaker 2: times where he was a really high level assist player
33:53
Speaker 2: because that's what Notre Dame needed him to be, and
33:56
Speaker 2: then there were times where he was very much a
33:57
Speaker 2: volume scorer because that's what Notre Dame needed to be.
34:01
Speaker 2: Can he find that balance right where you know that
34:04
Speaker 2: that feel forms and it's it's almost I mean, Notre
34:07
Speaker 2: Dame is not a mid major by any means, and
34:09
Speaker 2: he's got a SEC experience. I'm just I'm not suggesting
34:13
Speaker 2: that I when I make this comparison, what I mean
34:16
Speaker 2: is it's sort of like when you bring a mid
34:18
Speaker 2: major guy up and he did, you know, like Lamar
34:21
Speaker 2: Wilkerson's a decent example. He did a little bit of
34:23
Speaker 2: everything at Sam Houston State because he had to. Marcus
34:26
Speaker 2: Burton did a little bit of everything at Notre Dame
34:28
Speaker 2: because he had to. Can you find a good sort
34:33
Speaker 2: of can you find a happy medium for a player
34:36
Speaker 2: like that that unlike Wilkerson, where you could say, Okay,
34:39
Speaker 2: all we need you to do is shoot and score.
34:40
Speaker 2: Don't worry about the rebounding piece, don't worry about the
34:42
Speaker 2: assist piece. We'll get other people to do that. That's
34:44
Speaker 2: your greatest strength. We need to emphasize that. With Marcus Burton. It's, hey,
34:47
Speaker 2: the ball's gonna be in your hands. You got to
34:49
Speaker 2: run this offense, which means you got to be the
34:50
Speaker 2: one making all the right decisions. Where is that that
34:54
Speaker 2: comfortable balance for a player that's had to be both
34:56
Speaker 2: of those things in his career, and I think it's
34:58
Speaker 2: proven that he can be both of those things in
35:00
Speaker 2: his career. But a player that is is now going
35:03
Speaker 2: to have to do that for a team with you know,
35:06
Speaker 2: even greater expectations. So I mean there's I'm not acting
35:10
Speaker 2: like there aren't questions, you know, even on this roster,
35:12
Speaker 2: and then you know, we can talk about maybe some
35:15
Speaker 2: of the guys that weren't portal additions like Trent Cisly.
35:17
Speaker 2: I think as a player that it would not shock
35:20
Speaker 2: me if he's you know, comfortably in the rotation in
35:23
Speaker 2: mid late January. I think he looks bigger. I think
35:25
Speaker 2: he looks stronger. I think he learned, you know, kind
35:27
Speaker 2: of where he was maybe short last season, as a
35:31
Speaker 2: lot of freshmen do. And if Indiana's plan, when it
35:35
Speaker 2: is going to rotate those bigs and give them time
35:37
Speaker 2: to breathe is to go smaller than I think Trent
35:40
Speaker 2: Cisly is a huge piece of that equation. I think
35:44
Speaker 2: you look at the freshman and right now, you know,
35:46
Speaker 2: I said this on a video I did last week,
35:48
Speaker 2: but I think Moody and Carvila are both probably slightly
35:52
Speaker 2: further ahead then, at least in what I could see
35:55
Speaker 2: of them than man hearths. Now, that's not unsurprising. Man
35:58
Speaker 2: hurts reclassified, so he's he's trying to, you know, kind
36:02
Speaker 2: of gain an extra year in one summer, so to speak.
36:06
Speaker 2: But you can imagine a path to minutes for at
36:09
Speaker 2: least one of those three freshmen, if not two of
36:11
Speaker 2: those three freshmen. Well, I just built you at least
36:13
Speaker 2: an eight man rotation, right like you know that the
36:16
Speaker 2: six transfers plus sicily and one freshman, there's an eight
36:19
Speaker 2: man rotation. Throw in one more freshman, or throw in
36:22
Speaker 2: you know, like I said, like like maybe Solkoluff comes
36:24
Speaker 2: in and surprises you with where he's at, you know,
36:27
Speaker 2: anything like that. You know there's you know, bang, there's
36:32
Speaker 2: another there, there's another body. It's I'm not saying this
36:39
Speaker 2: team is without questions, obviously, it is like you. I
36:45
Speaker 2: just think the path to this team having a demonstrably
36:49
Speaker 2: higher floor is a is a pretty short one and
36:53
Speaker 2: a pretty easy one to spot. You're just gonna need
36:57
Speaker 2: maybe five percent more from four guys, and then ten
37:02
Speaker 2: percent more from four guys, and then you need it again.
37:08
Speaker 2: I don't mean to hammer back on this because I
37:10
Speaker 2: think Darren Devery's a good coach. I just need to
37:12
Speaker 2: see him show the ability to put all those pieces
37:16
Speaker 2: in the right place, essentially, And it wouldn't shock me
37:19
Speaker 2: if you know, we obviously don't know the full breadth
37:22
Speaker 2: of Indiana's schedule next season. We know they'll play Syracuse,
37:25
Speaker 2: we know they'll play Kentucky. At this point, I have
37:28
Speaker 2: a just based on everything I've heard, I would be
37:31
Speaker 2: surprised if they don't play a game somewhere on the
37:32
Speaker 2: East Coast. Beyond that, I'm not sure kind of what
37:35
Speaker 2: else is coming. It wouldn't shock me if they're one
37:38
Speaker 2: of those teams that looks rough around the edges in
37:40
Speaker 2: November and then by February we say, well, you know
37:42
Speaker 2: where was this team? You know, when we were playing
37:46
Speaker 2: I don't know Georgetown. It's not the Verizon Center. I
37:48
Speaker 2: think it's a Capitol One Center in DC now, But
37:50
Speaker 2: you know where was this team when Indiana's playing Georgetown
37:52
Speaker 2: and in the Capitol One Center on December first? Well,
37:55
Speaker 2: they weren't a complete article then they are now. I
37:59
Speaker 2: think that maybe the path this team winds up walking,
38:02
Speaker 2: but I can absolutely see a route to something much
38:05
Speaker 2: more successful for this group. Absolutely.
38:08
Speaker 1: Zach, Well, thanks for taking the time this morning to
38:11
Speaker 1: talk with us. Hopefully the book gets off to a
38:17
Speaker 1: great success here as the pre orders continue to come in,
38:21
Speaker 1: looking forward to what little less than three months ago
38:24
Speaker 1: until it's going to be released. So all the hard
38:27
Speaker 1: work is behind you, so now it's just about getting
38:29
Speaker 1: the word out and hopefully somebody or a lot of
38:33
Speaker 1: somebodies that are listening to this episode click that pre
38:36
Speaker 1: order link. I'm going to put it down the show
38:37
Speaker 1: notes to get the book so they have another hands
38:41
Speaker 1: when it's released on September second. Thanks again, Zach for
38:44
Speaker 1: taking the time and congratulations on getting that done. Looking
38:47
Speaker 1: forward to reading it myself absolutely. Thanks for having me
38:50
Speaker 1: good to talk to you. Thanks for letting me plug
38:52
Speaker 1: the book. I'm going to be shameless about this for
38:54
Speaker 1: the next ten weeks or whatever between now and September
38:57
Speaker 1: twenty second. I'm just going to anyone who wants to
38:59
Speaker 1: talk talk about it. I'll talk about it anyone, anytime,
39:02
Speaker 1: anywhere they want, be on.
39:03
Speaker 2: The Today Show to talk about it. I'll fly out
39:05
Speaker 2: to New York because it was a lot of fun
39:06
Speaker 2: and we are, you know, genuinely kind of proud of
39:09
Speaker 2: of what it became. And then more than anything else. Frankly,
39:12
Speaker 2: it's just good to talk to you again. It's good
39:13
Speaker 2: to have a voice again. Yeah. No, no, no more
39:16
Speaker 2: tonsils in the way for me. So we're doing all right.
39:20
Speaker 1: You're looking, uh, looking good. I'm glad everything healed up
39:23
Speaker 1: with that. As you told me about it, I was
39:25
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that you had to go through that,
39:27
Speaker 1: But I'm glad everything turned out all right. Thanks everybody,
39:31
Speaker 1: as always for uh for listening to the show. We
39:33
Speaker 1: appreciate the support. If you're listening over on Apple Podcasts
39:36
Speaker 1: or Spotify, leave us the rating review five stars, preferably.
39:41
Speaker 1: If you're watched on YouTube, like the video, subscribe to
39:43
Speaker 1: the channel and we'll be back soon with another episode
39:46
Speaker 1: of Podcast on the Break.