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Unraveling the Web of Narcissistic Relationships with Phoenix Gould: A Journey to Self-Love and Healing · Surviving-ISH Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: In every dark tunnel, there's a glimmer of hope.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: In every painful moment, there's a strength to heal.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Surviving Podcast.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about many topics, but the main focus will be on narcissistic behavior and traits.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: So, phoenix, I'm going to let you have a moment to introduce yourself.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you, david.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad to be here with you.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: My name is Phoenix Gould and I am residing in Canada.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: At the moment I'm in Mexico and I am a narcissist abuse survivor and thriver and I have used that path of my own self healing to now help others.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: So I am a coach that helps people recover and heal from trauma induced by narcissism.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: One of the questions that I get quite often is what does narcissism actually mean?
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I understand the question because I myself was trying to understand for so many years exactly what was going on in my life.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: The narcissist that I was dealing with mostly was my mother, and so I grew up with that kind of behavior and I tried to understand for so many years why she's behaving the way.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: She is trying to make sense of that from my point of view, when I could not find any sense, and maybe what would serve the best would be to explain narcissism from that point of view of why does the narcissist do what they do.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: So I always say that we can't understand narcissism if we try and understand a narcissist from our human perspective, because they don't work the same way as a normal, regular human being, but if you think of them more of an alien from another planet with very different functions and very different behavior, we become a little bit more curious and we open up that.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Oh so what does that mean?
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: And many people cannot understand why a narcissist can be so cruel and so reckless and so mean.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: The narcissist doesn't see other human beings as a human being.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: They see us as a tool to be used like a lamp or a stove or a toaster.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: And to understand why they behave the way they do.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: I say if, david, if you want to buy a toaster in a store when it's really shiny, brand new and it's red and it just looks so good in your kitchen and you treat it really well, that's the beginning of the relationship with a narcissist, and they show you off to everyone else.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: I guess it just works.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Really it works well.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Once the toaster starts to get a little old or maybe the narcissist doesn't like the red so much anymore, it doesn't start to get the bread the way it wants it anymore, then you would see it not as a thing you need to have empathy for.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: You would probably pick it up and shake it, try and make it work, bang it on the side a little bit to get it to work again.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: And that's where the narcissist can be so cruel, because they do not see us as a human being, but like a toaster.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: And now the toaster isn't working, and so you would probably chuck it in the bin and go get a new one, which is what the narcissist does, right, when they have the relationship they chuck out the old one, they go get a better one, maybe this time a blue one.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: And the other thing to understand is the only thing a narcissist wants is fuel out of those human beings who they see as tools, and fuel is any emotional reaction from us.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: And so if you're wondering why the narcissist is doing what they're doing, I always say they want an emotional reaction.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: That's the only thing.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: So whether they're being nice to you, whether they're being really charming or really mad or really angry or very provocative, all they're trying to do is to provoke you into giving them an emotional reaction, and they don't care whether that is love, adoration, irritation, confusion, anger, fear, but the stronger the emotional reaction, the more fuel they receive.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: That's all they do.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: They do nothing for any other reason than to get fuel.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: And it comes to being a narcissist or those characteristics you had mentioned, they want some sort of an emotional reaction, is that?
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Can we elaborate on that a little bit?
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Is it that they would want me to react in any type of way?
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: It doesn't even have.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: It has to do with them and their point of view.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Even if you're getting angry and now go in the kitchen you bang some pots, right, that's not related to them, but it is related to them in the sense that they provoked that reaction in you.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, at first, when we start a relationship with the narcissist, what they want is the adoration and the love and the dedication and all that attention that fuels them like crazy.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: But after a while, as love, as that first period of love, wanes a little bit, now that intense love and attention, adoration, wanes a little bit, and they feel that there's now a lack of fuel.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: So they need more fuel and they might get that very well by provoking you, by making you jealous, by saying something that irritates you or confuses you.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: It really doesn't matter to them In the end.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter whether you're raging mad at them and you hate them from the bottom of your heart or whether you love them from the bottom of your heart, but the stronger your reaction, the stronger the fuel and the more powerful and safe that makes them feel.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: So really, it doesn't matter what your reaction is, as long as they feel that they've provoked it.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Do they know, okay, when we talk about like the dating process, right, like it's the one, and done the showing you off and then so that could also be a grooming thing, right, so do.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: And I guess this goes back to the intent.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Do they know that they're doing it?
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Is their intent to like?
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Do they know they're in our company, their narcissist?
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Do they know what they're doing and they are purposely doing it?
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: I can't be sure, but according to my research, there's different levels of awareness.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Some of them are not aware of it at all, it's just an automated thing, but that's what they do.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: They might sense they're different from other people, but they might not quite understand it.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: And then there are those really super smart, very aware narcissists that, oh yes, they know, but they don't care because you're just a toaster.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: Literally, to them, you are just a toaster, or a door or a bed that you sleep in, and if the pillow isn't right, you chuck it out and get a new one or you pound it until it's the right shape.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: We don't have empathy with a pillow or a toaster.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Something else in my mind is that there's so many fine lines right, there's this healthy way to be self-aware, and then, right across that line, is that unhealthy way to be too self-involved.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: And so what I would love to maybe discuss with you for a minute is I know that what fills my bucket is being around people.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I have the option to work from home.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Most of my team works from home.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Monday, wednesday, friday.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: I'm in the office 8 to 5 every day because it fills my bucket to be around people, but when and I'm trying to think of a way that this person that I'm thinking of specifically, how they actually ask this question what is the difference, or how do you find that difference, with me, for example, wanting to just fill my bucket and be around people and get that high off of that?
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Where is that line to?
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Where it's not me being narcissistic, it's not me being destructive with it?
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: That's a really good question.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: No one's ever asked me that, so I'm wondering about that myself.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love that, I love that myself.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: And it's something maybe we can discover together as we discuss.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: It seems to me I know what you're saying, because this is a question that so many people ask how do I know I'm not a narcissist?
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: There's always a little bit of worry.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: What if it's me?
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: What if this rubbed off on me and I'm a narcissist?
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: The essential difference is do you see other people as human beings?
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Do you have empathy?
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: When you hurt someone?
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Do you go to some part of you going?
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, I hurt them.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: But I said, hurt them somehow.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: When you have that, you're not a narcissist, very clearly.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: And yes, it's lovely to be around other people.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: It's inspiring, it's enriching.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Of course that's what we want, but that's not the same as fuel.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: And of course we desire positive reactions from other people.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: That's also normal.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: That's a normal human thing.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: But do you delight when someone is raging mad at you?
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Do you delight when someone is suffering?
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Or do you delight when someone hates you?
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Does that make you feel stronger?
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Very likely not.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: A normal human being would preserve relationships at all costs.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: And maybe that's the part that I forget is that if I get high off of making someone else feel good, then I'm putting them first.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: It's that high is a mutual high.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: If the high is when you use the word fuel, if your lows are fueling me to feel good, then that's when maybe we should discuss if you're a narcissist, because, even though it sounds, I hate the word selfish sometimes and sometimes I love the word selfish, so I'll preface this with this, just so you'll know where I'm coming from.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: After my sexual assault, which was nine years ago, I went to individual therapy and I was there for about a year and then I became very involved with this organization and was a part of developing a sexual assault group therapy for men.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: And then so every Thursday, a group of men there was like six of us that would get together every Thursday and we became brothers and it was amazing.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: It was amazing to me.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I think that I'm part of the best of the best in my life, and so I think about how, when they felt low, I felt low when they were patting me on the back.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: I wanted to pat them on the back.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: What I definitely wanted to tell you to preface with is one of the phrases that I kept saying and have actually discussed with my therapist.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Selfish been an unselfish way, and what I truly mean by that is I wanted to be okay for me to love me, but for me to love me immediately.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: If I love me, I'm selfish and I don't deserve to be loved, and that's not what it is, and so the only way that I could describe it, at least at that time in therapy, was I wanted to be selfish in an unselfish way, meaning I wanted to be a priority.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: There's a difference in you being a priority to yourself and it being at other people's expense.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Such a big difference, such a big difference, and really the most important relationship we have in our life is the one with ourselves.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: And the more we love ourselves, the more we are capable of loving other people.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and so there's love, and the narcissist has a very limited or a no capacity for love or empathy.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: That's a part that doesn't exist in their brain.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: It's not possible, it's not something they choose not to have, they're just simply not capable, which is not the case for a normal person who prioritizes themselves, especially after having gone through trauma or a life of having learned that we need to sacrifice ourselves in order to serve others, that we can't be ourselves, that we shouldn't prioritize ourselves, that we're there to serve others.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Right, there is often, I find, with clients, that feeling of am I being selfish because I'm focusing so much on me, like all my life is about me?
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: What do I need?
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: What's my next step?
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: What do I want?
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: But we need that intensity of thinking about ourselves because our focus has been, while we were being with a narcissist, has been on the narcissist, away from ourselves so much that we got lost.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it reminds me of that whole saying if the plane's going down, you have to put your mask on first.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: How am I good for anybody if I'm not good for me?
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: And even through this conversation I was asking myself what do I mean by fill my bucket?
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: What is going to work into the office every day and being around people?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: How does that fill my bucket?
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: And it's not that I'm walking in everyone's oh my God, david's here and his sweater is amazing and his hair is on point and his spray tan looks great.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: It's never any of that.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: It's the fact that people will come to me and say I'm stressed out and I just need to laugh.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Can we take a walk together?
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: And I'm that light in their day.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Or when someone is just in the verge of tears with their job and they're like where's David?
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: He makes me laugh.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: The fact that I will make my coffee and I walk around to everyone's office on the way to mine and I pop into and tell them that I like their shirt today.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Your hair looks good today.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being here.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: And that is what fills my bucket, Absolutely.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I'm doing the actions that fill my bucket but again, it's not to anyone's expense.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: It's hopefully to their benefit, to help them have a better day.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: That has helped my bucket runneth over is when you come to me and say, today sucked until I saw you smile and now like I've had a great day, like those are the things which is so.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Their bucket is filled as well as mine and actually proud of that.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is so important.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're discussing this because this is so many people's worry.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Am I being narcissistic?
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Am I being selfish, Even helping other people?
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: You were asking yourself is that selfish Telling other people that their shirt looks nice or making them laugh?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: It's not the same.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: We feel nourished when we have a good connection with other people.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: A narcissist is incapable of having a good connection because everything to them is a tool.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: We can't have a connection with a hammer not the same as a human connection.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: And, of course, you're looking to feel good and have a good day and it's that lovely little interplay that you described at work sounds really lovely and light.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: And a narcissist would go into that office and check through and say who will give me the strongest reaction.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: It's Anna.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: How is Anna feeling today?
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: What kind of reaction could I get out of her?
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: She seems a little on edge.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Ooh, if I say that one thing, she's really gonna fly off the handle.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: That's gonna feel so good.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: They're really pinpointed.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: It's like they're walking around with a knife and trying to see where they can stick that knife into, how they can twist it, just so to get the most fuel out of them.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: It's a completely different motivation.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: The motivation is very different.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Your motivation is to connect and to give and take and you delight in that connection and whatever it brings.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: For the narcissist.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: it's just them and the tool I can't wait for my listeners to hear this, because I've had so many at this point, especially women.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: I've had a few men, but especially women have reached out and even now that they're out of that relationship they now feel that I'm very guarded now.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: So that means I'm showing these same traits, I'm becoming the partner that was bad to me and I try to tell them.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I'm completely educated on this.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're here, but I don't think that I think that you're trying to set your boundaries and you're trying to learn who you are outside of this relationship, with the knowledge that you have, with the boundaries that you have.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: But I feel like you would probably have a better, easier understanding way to say what I'm trying to say.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: So if you wouldn't mind, Sure, I think you said it beautifully.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I think what you're talking about.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: There's two things, right.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: There's how do we behave with a narcissist?
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Because sometimes they're still in our lives, right, if it's a mom or a dad, or if it's a partner who we share a child with, we cannot really get away.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: And so that person is now there, and in order to protect ourselves, we have to become very guarded with that person, because, basically, they are a snake with very sharp teeth disguised as a little fluffy bunny, right, and we know that.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: We know that.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: And would you try and be close to a poisonous snake?
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: No, so we have to guard ourselves.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: We have to create the distance that's necessary so we don't get hurt again, because the pain we have experienced is so humongous that even just a slight memory of it throws us right back into PTSD, old memories, and boom, we are back in a place that we tried to get out of so hard.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: And, yes, we're creating boundaries, and with a narcissist it's not like with a normal person, but we can say, hey, this is my line right here, so please don't step over it.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: In fact, if you draw a line with a narcissist, they will put their toe or their foot or their whole body across for sure, because they know it's gonna push your buttons and you will react, which is what they want the fuel right.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: A narcissist is never, ever, going to respect the boundary.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Unless there is something you can bribe them with, unless there's something you have, whether it be money or connection to a specific person or connection to some, whatever great opportunity, they will not respect that boundary.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: They will definitely walk across it.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: So we have to be very guarded.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: We shouldn't share anything we want with a narcissist, because they will definitely do the opposite.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: And so, yes, we become guarded and we feel almost cold and we are actually trying to not engage in a relationship, in a connection with that person, because that's dangerous, because we know the teeth will come out and the poison will once again search through our body, and this is very hard because it makes us feel unkind, cold, sometimes mean.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: So those feelings are very true, I think, for everyone.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: And the other thing is, of course, once we have been with a narcissist and we thought they were the best things since sliced bread in the beginning, we were so convinced they were our soulmate and we finally found that one person that understands us to the core.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: We're going to be very reluctant with other people right To open up again.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: We have to be really careful there.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Again, we might feel.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Am I too mean by saying no?
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: We feel standoffish a little bit.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: But with a narcissist we weren't allowed to have any boundaries.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: So oftentimes we don't even know what a boundary is, or when we set one up, it feels mean because maybe we've never had the right to have a boundary.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: If we grew up with a narcissist, we certainly were never having any boundaries.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: That was a big no right.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Boundaries don't exist for us.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And so how do we even begin to feel okay with a boundary or feel like, actually I don't want that?
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: Can I say no, wouldn't that be mean, would not hurt the other person?
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: We've been so focused on avoiding other people's pain in an expense of our own.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: It feels awkward, we feel mean and uncaring.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: All the worries of being a bad person comes up right, reinforces what we've heard for years it's your fault, you are unkind.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: You wouldn't do this to me if you were a nice person.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Blah, blah, blah.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: All those voices come back.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: It's a big subject Boundaries.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Statistics showed that, because of trauma, you're an easier target for someone who's trying to take advantage of.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: You had mentioned how, growing up, your mother was a narcissist.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Do you have examples to maybe help us put that into perspective?
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Because my question to you is as you were getting older, when did you A learn that, oh, I'm a victim of narcissistic behavior, and did that open you up into your adult life to have partners that maybe were that's a really good question.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Let me say this maybe I'll try and make it short and still give you what you're looking for.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: I was convinced because I was a golden child.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you know that between the distinction of the golden child and the black sheep in the family, the golden child is usually the one that gets spoiled.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: But golden children suffer as much as well, maybe not.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: They suffer differently than the black sheep.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: In step-branches.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Because there's a high price to be paid for that kind of treatment, which is a complete loss of self.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: I had no sense of self at all, but I didn't know.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: I would always look outside.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: How can I please someone?
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Who do they want me to be so that I'll be loved?
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: I have these huge antennas that you need to survive when you grow up with a narcissist.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: How are they behaving?
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I would check every reaction and I would adjust accordingly to be likable and lovable.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't know any of that.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: I was convinced that I had the perfect childhood Until I was about 21,.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: I grew up in Germany and then I went to New York City when I was 23.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: I was 23.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I went to New York City For the first time in my life.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: I was in a completely new environment and it must have really rattled me at the core and at the roots because it shook something up.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: All of a sudden I could feel that, holy moly, I don't know what to say.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: When I'm with this person, I would almost leave my body and see myself from the outside and go like that's weird, what am I doing here?
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: I would sit there frozen.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't know how to get back into my body, but the split was so strong that I literally felt like I left my body.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't know what to say anymore.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I was really becoming aware of because I was meeting a lot of new people that I was checking in.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Does that person like me?
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, I really want to be liked.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I said the wrong thing.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Maybe I should say that I would really become a chameleon.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: And I started to become aware of that, which was really frightening, because I could also see other people be different.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Now I could see other people be spontaneous and say silly, stupid things and not care about it, which would have mortified me.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I became so scared of even having a conversation with anyone that I really felt oh my God, something's really wrong.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: And I was then seeking help from someone who said I think this has to do with your mom.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And I said I don't think so.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: If you want, we can explore it.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: And as we explored and that was the therapy I did I started to remember things about the path that I had completely forgotten.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I had only remembered the really good things, but all the terrible things I had completely forgotten.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: But I started to get my memories back and then I started to realize oh boy, my mom is not normal, what the hell is going on.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: And unfortunately I was working with therapists who had no personal experience with a narcissist.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: They only had that knowledge from books, so they really had no idea.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: When I was telling them about my mom who that was they were saying oh, maybe she's borderline personality disorder or maybe bipolar, or maybe this.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I was searching, and it wasn't until my 40s that I really understood that she was a narcissist, and so for years I was trying to figure out what's wrong with her, how can I help her?
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: And I was thinking borderline personality disorder was really close.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: It was really close.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: It described a lot of her behavior, but not all of it.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: But once I came across narcissism, it filled all the blanks.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my God, oh my God, that's exactly what she says.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, that's exactly what she did.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: It filled those bits and pieces that didn't quite fit with the borderline personality disorder.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: And then I researched fiercely for four years that was my only focus understanding narcissism and I read every book and every post on the internet and I gathered whatever I could because I really wanted to understand what it was, how I wanted to react and all that.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: The first question, or one of the questions you had, was whether it primed me to be in a relationship with a narcissist.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: And yes, my first boyfriend when I was 17, I believe now was a narcissist because it just fits the whole description and I was stuck in a relationship for a year and a half and really only got out through really good luck.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: But yes, it felt so normal to me because that's how it grown up.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: None of the things he did or said raised red flags because for me that was a normal experience not having boundaries, everything being my fault, me having to sacrifice what I think and believe in want.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: I definitely want to talk about the radical self-love.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: When I was 23, I got my first coach slash therapist, and he really helped me to find myself again, and a big part of that was starting to love myself, first of all, to discover who the hell I was, because I had no idea.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: I had no idea what I wanted, what I liked, what I wasn't, because I'd just been so good at being a chameleon and along the way that seemed like it was a really long way.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: It was such a long way of finding myself and then starting to love myself, and I think what helped me with my therapist to stay with me forever was that he had unconditional acceptance for me in the therapy, no matter what I said, no matter what I thought, no matter what I wished, it was always an unconditional bond, positive regard for me.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: That was new to me.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: I'd never had that in my life with the narcissist, with my dad, yes, but a big chunk of my childhood was so dominated by my mother.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: That was a new thing and it felt so good and it was clear to me even when I finished that therapy that I could need to continue with that unconditional positive regard for myself.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: And every book that I picked up about healing said you need to love yourself, you need to love yourself, you need to love yourself, and I was always saying yes, but how it's easy for me to love the things that I like.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: What about the things that I don't like about myself?
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: That I still become a chameleon sometimes, that I still would rather give in than stand my ground.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: What about those bits?
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: I didn't know.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: And there were these exercises I saw where you need to look in the mirror and tell yourself I love you, I love you, I love you and you're beautiful.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: And all I could see when I looked into the mirror was a pitiful human being to be pettied but not loved, and I didn't think I was beautiful.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: How could I say you're beautiful?
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Whenever I said you're beautiful, what came back was that feeling of oh gosh, no, I'm not.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: So how do you love those things that are really hard to love?
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: How do you love when you get angry?
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: How do you love when you hate someone?
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: How do you love when you said something very unkind or when you have unkind thoughts?
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: Right, and I know a lot of people struggle with that bit.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: And so this is where a story that might be interesting for another podcast, because it's a little long.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: This radical self-love came to me and I discovered this is actually wrong, because many people have discovered that before me.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: There are many people that talk about this, but I discovered this on my own.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: In that moment, I rediscovered what people hadn't known for thousands of years, I'm sure, a way where I could radically love myself and which made it so simple and so easy, and I'd love to share that.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: If there's anything I want to share with the world, that's this, because I really feel passionate about it and I feel if everyone could love themselves, oh my god, the world would change.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: So here's the concept when we don't like parts of ourselves, we tend to chop them off.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be angry.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's not me.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not angry anymore.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: I'm moving anger out of my life.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: That's not what I'm gonna do, and I don't like this thought and I don't like that thought.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: And so we become a tree that's been extremely thin and chopped all the branches off.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: I'm still weird until we're just that stick that's left, and so no wonder we don't feel whole.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: How can we feel whole like this?
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: And what I understand now is that those parts that we've chopped off never, ever go away.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: They follow us wherever we go.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: They're always there and they're like little kids.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you have children or not, but when they want candy and they're like mom, I want candy.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: If I don't say anything, if I turn away and I ignore them, like those bits of myself I don't like, and I just moved to another room, that kid will follow me Mom, I want candy.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: They're like oh, she didn't hear me.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: I have to say it louder Mom, I want candy, I want candy, I want candy.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: And it can turn into screaming until I stop moving away and I turn around and I say oh, my god, you want candy.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Of course you want candy.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: It is so delicious.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: This would really be so good if you could get candy right now and my child goes, yes, and you can see the kind of relax and then I can say I get it.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: I get it.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Of course you want candy, see, but right now it's not a good time because we're about to have supper.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: How about after supper?
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: I'll give you something after supper, or whatever that may be.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: But similar to those feelings that we've chopped off when we turn around and we go away.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: They follow us wherever we go and they become stronger, they yell louder.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: They just want to be acknowledged, like a little kid would with the candy.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: They just want to be seen and heard, and if we don't see them and hear them, they become so overwhelming.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Which is why, oftentimes, people who are survivors of such abuse are really overwhelmed by our feelings and we feel like they run the show.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: We feel like they run the show because, in fact, if we always turn away from where they are, we're not really going where we want to go.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: We're just going away from where we don't want to be, and so they get to direct where our focus is in life and where we're going.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: But once we stop running and we turn around and we address each of them and we say oh my god, you're so angry.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Wow, that really pissed you off.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Of course it did.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: There's an unconditional love.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Doesn't say yes, go ahead being angry.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: That unconditional, radical self-love is now directed towards that part that's angry and it says yeah, of course you're angry, I get it, that really made you mad.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: And we allow that part to just feel the anger and something magical happens when we do that, similar to a child.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: That part relaxes us and goes cool, she got it and now I'm still a choice.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Now I can say to the anger I get it, the way I want to deal with this anger or how I want to express it is this way.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Or yeah, actually you know what that person really needs to hear what I have to say, or we get to be a choice.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: And so radical self-love is so simple because, no matter what we feel, even if the whatever feeling pops up first, that's the part that we give that unconditional radical love to, and that means you don't have to change.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: That's what radical love is.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: That I see you and you don't have to change.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: And so that's what we want.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: To start with radical self-love.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: And we feel that confusion there's so many feelings, I don't even know where to start Great Play with the part that is confused and say, oh my god, you're so confused, there's so much you don't even know where to start.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: I get it, that's okay, of course you're confused.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: And then just be with that feeling of confusion and send that feeling, that acceptance of yes, you are totally allowed to be confused right now, you don't need to change.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: And then we're on to the next one.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: And we see, so often we do the opposite of radical self-love.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: We're like man I'm angry.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be angry.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't be angry, I'm not going to be angry.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: I need to get myself out of being angry.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: I should be positive.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: And so we're trying to become something else, but that only leads us really far away from ourselves.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: We're radical self-love If we pay attention to the part that is angry and to the part that doesn't want to be angry.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Also, we don't.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: There's no excluding anything, no feeling, no wish, no thought.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: We can hold both the feeling of being really angry and the feeling of man, I don't want to be angry.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: We just choose one.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: First.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Give that part of us the attention.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, of course you don't want to be angry, you want to be a good human being.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: We give that part empathy.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, I get it.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Of course that feels really wrong.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I get it.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: That's OK.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: And at the same time we can hold the part that is raging mad and wants to throttle someone, and then we get to be in charge as to what we do.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: But all those feelings want is to be seen and heard.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: You had said the comment of allowing yourself, giving yourself permission, and I think that is so important and I think that we forget that.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: So I was so glad that you said that.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: OK, that makes me really curious what's important about that for you, if I may?
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: ask For me, and even people that have written in that I was able to relate to, is it caused them that whole toxic positivity thing?
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: People want to say, david, that was nine years ago, you should be over it by now.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: But that's not how mental health works.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: That's not how rape works.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: That's not how attempted murder works.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: His fingerprints will be on me until the day I die and the fact that I now will check my door three times to make sure it's locked, the things that have come along with it, the fact of I was not the only victim.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: My partner is a victim because it affected us, which he and I were not together then.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: We've been together for five years but even now I'm still affected sexually.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: He can touch my hand one night and it is the sweetest touch.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: The next time he could touch my hand the same way and I have to go sleep in a guest room.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: He is evicting to my mother, my father, my nephews, my Godchildren and my friends.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: They all mourn and miss the David that I used to be and had to get some of the new David that I've become, and they had to love me through that, but they also needed to allow themselves to mourn the David that used to be, and so I go back to that whole toxic positivity.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: When I start feeling down about something I should be allowed to say you know what I mean my feels about this, I'm giving myself 10 minutes to just be crazy, for like a better word to be whatever, and instead of saying, oh no, that was nine years ago and I'm better now, things are perfect.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Now, things are amazing.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: I've got a husband now.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: I've got a house now.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: And pretty much now I'll be able to stay held and argue about my actions and grandma's a little deeper, in a different way, a different part of it.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: And yes, I think what you've described is I'm good, now that's the head that wants to be done, but there's a body and a soul and a spirit and all of that has been affected and we cannot decide with our minds.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: We're done and over with this.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Now, actually, that gets in the way of healing.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: We cannot.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: What is there and what is there will come up sooner or later and, yes, we can ignore it, but then it doesn't get healed.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: But when it pops up again and we go, oh shit, I'd rather not, but there you are, Okay, let's sit together.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: What do you have to say?
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: I'm really sad about this, I'm terrified Then we get to sit with that part of ourselves again and give it healing by honoring it, by saying, yes, I hear you, that is horrible.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: And so it's coming up again and I'm right here with you, I'll sit this through with you, You're not alone.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: That's what creates the healing.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: It never ends.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: I always try to tell myself that I do really enjoy looking at if I start feeling an emotion and I'm like, okay, david, I'm gonna let you feel this, seeing how I handle it now versus how I would have nine years ago when everything was very ripe and raw, that shows that growth and progression to me.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: That motivates me to next time, now that I'm in into a different state of mind.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Now I know how I would want to handle it.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: So now I can help myself get to that place to where, when I am triggered by something again I know how to handle it or maybe try something different.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: I'll try on air, but the thing is to just keep trying and then it's not complete air and it's not feeling yourself.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: As long as you have the want to.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: You're not afraid anymore.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: That's really.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: What it shows me is you've stopped running.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Wow, that takes a hell of a lot of courage.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: So the last thing that I have that I want to say, you had said the phrase of the long way to finding yourself, or the journey to finding yourself, and that just really hit me and I realized that I've never done finding myself.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: The minute I'm done finding myself, then it's over To me.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: And what I was taking from what you were saying because it was very positive, right, what I was taking from it is I learned to enjoy the ride in finding myself.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: I learned to have fun in finding myself.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I learned to laugh when I fall down.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I learned to laugh when I say a cuss word in church accidentally.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: But I also learned to learn, and so I began to enjoy the ride and I've mentioned that phrase.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: It's from a song that I love.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: That just really resonated with me nine years ago and it has just always stayed with me and so it works itself into conversations.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: But when you were speaking, it is a long way to find yourself and but if you just enjoy it, then that changes everything.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: And I remember that moment.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: I was like I had fun with me today and everything changed.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: And this is the gift actually, in those terrible experiences we wake up in a way that we would have never woken up, and I wonder if that's true for you as well.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Once we are on that path of who am I, what do I like, it becomes fascinating, and then we realize it never ends, there's no end.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: I know who I am today, maybe, but something new always comes along where I thought oh man, I didn't know that about me.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: Wow, that was a weird reaction.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Where the hell did that come from?
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Or whoa, I was so self confident.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: What's that all about?
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: There's always something new, and that is such an amazing discovery, isn't it?
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: I want to take a moment for you to be able to tell everyone where they can find you and reach out to you and listen to you and all those great things, because they're going to love you just as much as I do, so be ready.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I just want to say what a delightful conversation this was with you, because it really felt like connecting and having a conversation and nothing scripted.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: And I feel like you know, what I really appreciate about you is you're so open and so natural.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: I feel like I've gotten to know you, which has never happened to me before in an interview.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: I feel like, oh my God, I got to know David.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: I'm very delighted.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much for letting me get to know you a little bit.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Anytime, I had the doors always open.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, what I would love to say is that if people would love to have some guidance on this radical self love, I have a free audio recording and we could put that link underneath, if that's okay with you.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Please yeah.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: That way, they can just get it and do it.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: And how they can reach me is through WhatsApp, if they want to write to me directly with a question, or they can reach me.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: It's a Canadian number and it's 780-2689888.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: And my website right now is under construction, so I won't give you that one.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: But once it's been ready, you can let us know and we'll post that.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, sounds good.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: So you can also find me on Facebook under Phoenix school or under my sort of more public page, phoenix core coaching, and I have a free coffee chat every Monday where people get 20 minutes with me for free.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: If they have a question or if they want help with something around healing or narcissism, they can reach out to me and book 20 minutes with me also, and if someone wants to do healing sessions with me and coaching, they can ask for that as well.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: I have an email to it and it's phoenix, at phoenix coreca.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Wonderful and, of course, I will post all those links.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: I want to extend my deepest gratitude to our incredible guests for sharing their transformative journey with us today and next week as we dive into the healing process and share more incredible stories of triumph and resilience.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Thank you.