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Timid Honor Student Son Stabs Mom Dead, Dad Blows Kisses in Court · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a gorgeous young mom who
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Speaker 1: has just given birth to a baby girl, stabbed dead
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Speaker 1: in the bed with the baby girl sleeping nearby, and
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Speaker 1: then the shock her honor student thirteen year old son,
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Speaker 1: Dereck Rosa, charged with murdering mom in the last hours.
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Speaker 1: Rosa in court, sitting emotionless as his father blows him
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Speaker 1: a kiss. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks
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Speaker 1: for being with us here at Crime Stories and on
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Speaker 1: series XM one eleven. Derek Rosa sitting in court emotionless
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Speaker 1: as his dad blows him a kiss. The thirteen year
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Speaker 1: old boy accused of stabbing his mother dead in her
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Speaker 1: Florida home, sits there, showing no emotion during his first
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Speaker 1: in person court appearance. Dad, sitting in the gallery, reportedly
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Speaker 1: blows a kiss to the accused killer. The honorable student,
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Speaker 1: Derrick Rosa, was wearing a brown prison outfit. He appeared
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Speaker 1: to occasionally nod his head while while speaking to his lawyers.
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Speaker 1: This is just weeks after he allegedly knifed his mother,
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Speaker 1: Irene just thirty nine, dead as she slept next to
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Speaker 1: her newborn baby daughter during the proceed During the court hearing.
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Speaker 1: Footage captures him his eyes darting around the courtroom during
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Speaker 1: the proceedings. As you will recall, he's the one that
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Speaker 1: called nine one one immediately after after the stabbing, even
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Speaker 1: stating he had taken photos off his dead mom and
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Speaker 1: sending them to friends.
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Speaker 2: What exactly happened? Let's take a listen to the nine
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Speaker 2: on one call.
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Speaker 3: Did you call her neck?
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Speaker 4: Okay?
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Speaker 1: Where else did you stop there?
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Speaker 4: Old and night cutting her neck?
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Speaker 5: Then?
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Speaker 1: Where is your sister?
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Speaker 6: She's in your grip sleeping?
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Speaker 4: How old is your sister?
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Speaker 7: She's only like a week old?
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Speaker 8: Okay?
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Speaker 4: And you did not touch her?
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Speaker 8: Correct?
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Speaker 7: No, I did not touch you. I didn't want to
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Speaker 7: touch my sister.
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Speaker 4: I need to know if your mom is breathing.
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Speaker 7: She said, Miss, I have the gun with me. I
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Speaker 7: was gonna shoot myself, but I didn't want to.
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Speaker 3: I didn't want to.
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Speaker 7: I pulled back the slide but I did not see.
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Speaker 2: And more, I need to know.
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Speaker 4: Do you think we can help your mom?
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Speaker 3: She said?
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Speaker 7: I have more family members they can take care of
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Speaker 7: my sister. I took pictures and I told my friend
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Speaker 7: about it. Was that bad?
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Speaker 4: Do you talk old about it?
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Speaker 7: My friends?
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Speaker 4: Your friends and you send pictures to your friends.
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Speaker 8: So what you do?
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Speaker 7: Yeah, I didn't really the pictures off my phone, but
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Speaker 7: I sent him to him and I told him that
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Speaker 7: I was sorry. And then let's go. I'm okay, I'm.
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Speaker 2: Let me understand this.
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Speaker 1: Kaitlin Becker is joining me, senior investigative reporter with dailymail
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Speaker 1: dot Com.
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Speaker 2: Kaitlin Wait, the.
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Speaker 1: Thirteen year old honor student son kills mom, stabbing her
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Speaker 1: multiple times in the neck, and then leaves his fourteen
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Speaker 1: day old little sister alive, takes pictures of his mom
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Speaker 1: dead in the bed and sends him to a friend.
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Speaker 1: Just start at the beginning, Kaitlyn.
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Speaker 9: Becker, Nancy, this case is absolutely baffling. We have no
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Speaker 9: idea what the motive is. This is about eleven thirty
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Speaker 9: at night. The son, as you said, thirteen years old,
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Speaker 9: is awake, both the baby and mom are sleep. He
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Speaker 9: goes into bedroom, allegedly stabbed mom to death like sed
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Speaker 9: Lee's baby untouched, and then he takes the picture send
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Speaker 9: it to someone he barely even knows. I mean, he
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Speaker 9: says the word friend in the nine to one one call,
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Speaker 9: and when the dispatcher asks for a name, he says
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Speaker 9: he doesn't know. The friend's actual name. It's just someone
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Speaker 9: that he plays games with online, so not even someone
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Speaker 9: this child is close with. And then he called nine
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Speaker 9: one one on himself. You could hear in the call
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Speaker 9: that he's clearly distraught. And from everything we know about
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Speaker 9: this kid from friends and family, he's an honor student,
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Speaker 9: well mannered, well behaved, quiet. This appeared to come out
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Speaker 9: of absolutely nowhere. And his baby sister, who is fourteen
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Speaker 9: years old, is a half sister. So his stepfather, who
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Speaker 9: was a truck driver, was out of state working this night,
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Speaker 9: so he wasn't there. And you know, the gun, as
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Speaker 9: the child mentioned in that call, belonged to the stepfather.
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Speaker 1: I want to hear that second sound again, Sidney, if
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Speaker 1: you could play that one more time.
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Speaker 4: I need to know that you think we can help
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Speaker 4: your mom.
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Speaker 7: She said, I have more family members they can take
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Speaker 7: care of my sister. I took pictures and I told
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Speaker 7: my friend about it.
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Speaker 8: Was that bad?
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Speaker 9: Do you talk old about it?
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Speaker 10: My friend to.
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Speaker 4: Your friends that you send pictures to your friends?
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Speaker 2: So what you do?
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Speaker 7: Yeah? I didn't really the pictures off my phone, but
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Speaker 7: I sent him to him and I told him that
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Speaker 7: I was sorry. And then let's go bud. I'm okay, okay,
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Speaker 7: I'm really sad.
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Speaker 1: Joining me right now is high profile lawyer Jason Ocean's
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Speaker 1: New York based but really practice is all over criminal
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Speaker 1: and civil lawyer Jason Oceans.
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Speaker 2: Have you ever had one piece.
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Speaker 1: Of evidence and you have like this nine on one
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Speaker 1: call and you have to play it over and over
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Speaker 1: because each line proves so much. Because you have this
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Speaker 1: young perp who has just stabbed his mom in the neck,
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Speaker 1: the little baby sister just a few days old, lying
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Speaker 1: there with her, and he says not only that he
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Speaker 1: did it, but he's speaking what can I learn from.
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Speaker 2: This nine on one call? Just the part that I've
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Speaker 2: played so far. He is coherent.
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Speaker 1: He has taken pictures of his mother, this is his
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Speaker 1: bio mom. He's taken pictures of her lying dead with
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Speaker 1: her neck stabbed, and he has sent them to the friend.
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Speaker 1: And he says this one thing, this is very important.
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Speaker 1: It's critical.
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Speaker 2: Was that bad? People only say it was that bad
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Speaker 2: when they know it's bad. Was that wrong? Yeah? It
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Speaker 2: was wrong, Nancy.
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Speaker 3: He's barely barely thirteen, just twelve a little bit ago.
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Speaker 2: So is that what I asked you?
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Speaker 3: No, you did not ask Okay also called him a.
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Speaker 2: Purp because he murdered his mother.
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Speaker 3: Right, that's clearly he murdered his mother. There was no
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Speaker 3: question there.
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Speaker 2: And would you disagree that he is not the perpetrator.
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Speaker 3: Oh, he is the perpetrator.
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Speaker 2: So he is in fact the purp.
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Speaker 3: Yes, Nancy, as we break it down, he is the purp.
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Speaker 2: Okay.
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Speaker 1: Back to the original question in court, I would say
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Speaker 1: something like, as I looked at you glaringly, your honor,
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Speaker 1: may I refresh the witness's recollection? May I redirect the
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Speaker 1: witness as his answers are unresponsive?
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Speaker 2: And I will ask you again, have you ever had
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Speaker 2: a piece.
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Speaker 1: Of evidence that the more you looked at it, the
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Speaker 1: more you learned just one sentence, one piece of evidence,
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Speaker 1: that clip from that nine to one, one callback, one part
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Speaker 1: of it.
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Speaker 3: Well, as a prosecutor, Nancy, you're looking at critically and
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Speaker 3: you see everything inside your case right there to prove it.
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Speaker 3: I understand where you're coming from. I do not disagree
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Speaker 3: with you. You're going to play that over and over
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Speaker 3: in your head. You're going to play it over and
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Speaker 3: over for the jury. You're going to play it over
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Speaker 3: and over again. It's quite this positive. There's not much
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Speaker 3: to it. It's a slam duck for me as a
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Speaker 3: defense attorney goes beyond to mental health. You know the conference.
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Speaker 3: Is that wrong? That's not a purpose? Is that wrong?
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Speaker 3: That's a that's a little boy that's a troubled with
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Speaker 3: Despite what the outside looked at, something snapped, perhaps the
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Speaker 3: birth of the new child. Something happened that made him snap.
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Speaker 1: Well, frankly, unless it's a legal defense, I mean I
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Speaker 1: see things in uh everything, as you know, Jason, we're
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Speaker 1: longtime colleagues and friends.
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Speaker 2: Everything to me.
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Speaker 1: Now, once you go through law school and once you
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Speaker 1: try cases for a living, you begin to see the
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Speaker 1: world in a different way. Is it probative? Does it
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Speaker 1: prove something? Is it admissible? If it's not admissible, I
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Speaker 1: don't want to.
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Speaker 2: Hear about it.
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Speaker 1: I only want to know what I can put in
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Speaker 1: front of a jury and how I can interpret that,
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Speaker 1: and what is it true?
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Speaker 2: Is it real? Did this happen to you? I have
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Speaker 2: the right person.
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Speaker 1: Why I got to leave that up to a string
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Speaker 1: Like doctor James Carborino joining US, who specializes in what
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Speaker 1: causes violence in children, Professor's Psychology Emeritus, Cornell and Loyola
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Speaker 1: University of Chicago, Wow, author of Listening to Killers, Lessons
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Speaker 1: learned from twenty years as a psychological expert witness in
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Speaker 1: murder cases. Okay, I'm reading that, doctor James Garbarino. I'm
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Speaker 1: not saying that Jason otions is wrong. He's right, He's right.
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Speaker 1: Does that mean that goes into my now of how
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Speaker 1: I'm going to prove the case? I care about one thing.
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Speaker 1: Am I getting a true verdict? Am I telling the
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Speaker 1: jury the truth? Am I telling the jury the whole truth?
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Speaker 1: And us what I give the jury advance the truth?
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Speaker 1: So all I care about who did this? Where when
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Speaker 1: is it in my jurisdiction? And is there a legitimate
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Speaker 1: defense such a self defense, insanity accident? But doctor James Garbarino,
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Speaker 1: I want you to hear. Our cut three are friends
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Speaker 1: at crimeonline dot Com.
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Speaker 11: Derek Rosa is not your typical thirteen year old boy.
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Speaker 11: He's on the honor roll in eighth grade. Neighbors say
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Speaker 11: he is exceedingly nice and friendly. He is the model
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Speaker 11: son to his mother and respectful to his stepfather. He
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Speaker 11: has been a big help to his thirty nine year
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Speaker 11: old mother, Irena Garcia. She just gave birth to a
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Speaker 11: baby girl. A couple of weeks ago. Derek Rosa is
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Speaker 11: a good boy.
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Speaker 2: He is a good boy. Doctor Garmrino helped me.
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Speaker 10: You know, a lot of the the focus of the
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Speaker 10: criminal justice system is always, as you say, primarily what
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Speaker 10: did they do? Who did it? You know, the kind
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Speaker 10: of work that I've done for the last thirty years
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Speaker 10: as a psychological expert witness really tries to get at
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Speaker 10: who they are. I've worked on a number of kids
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Speaker 10: who killed their parents over the years. You know, a
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Speaker 10: lot of the kids who kill their parents it's called
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Speaker 10: reactive parasites and response to abuse. But I have worked
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Speaker 10: on cases like this that are mysterious at the outset
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Speaker 10: because you know, where does this come from? What does
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Speaker 10: it mean? How do we make sense of it? You know,
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Speaker 10: there are a number of possibilities. It's too early to know.
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Speaker 10: You know, there was a case in Oregon years ago
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Speaker 10: where a boy killed his parents and it turned out
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Speaker 10: he was slipping into schizophrenium's hearing voices. And you know,
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Speaker 10: the thing about hearing voices in America is a fascinating
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Speaker 10: study that finds that seventy percent of the voices that
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Speaker 10: schizophrenics here in America tell them to commit acts of
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Speaker 10: violence against themselves of others seventy percent. In India, it's
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Speaker 10: twenty percent. In Ghana and Africa it's ten percent. So
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Speaker 10: you know, we need to know what was his inner
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Speaker 10: life like, that's certainly one possibility. I mean, there are
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Speaker 10: other possibilities too that eventually may make sense of this.
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Speaker 10: But it certainly doesn't sound like this is. You know,
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Speaker 10: there's another case recently where boy killed his mother because
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Speaker 10: she wouldn't buy him some virtual reality headphones and he
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Speaker 10: was only you know, he was even younger than.
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Speaker 2: This boy nine. I'm a lady was nine.
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Speaker 10: You know, So we have to try to understand who
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Speaker 10: this is. This doesn't sound like it's the culmination of
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Speaker 10: an increasingly aggressive, any social kid who's entitled and maybe narcissistic,
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Speaker 10: maybe even on the road to becoming a psychopath. It
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Speaker 10: doesn't sound like that. It sounds like some very bizarre
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Speaker 10: thing going on in his head that was kept from
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Speaker 10: the adults around him.
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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. While the thirteen year old
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Speaker 1: was reportedly calm in the Miami Dade courtroom, family members
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Speaker 1: were much more emotional. The dad, mister Rosa, called for
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Speaker 1: a son to get a second chance. When the family
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Speaker 1: pled not guilty on behalf of the thirteen year old.
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Speaker 1: The dad states quote, I guess what we're asking for
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Speaker 1: is another opportunity, a second chance to help him grow
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Speaker 1: and become mature as a grown man, to put this
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Speaker 1: behind him.
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Speaker 2: Well, it didn't work.
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Speaker 1: Also, we are learning heart stopping baby cam images shows
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Speaker 1: the thirteen year old Florida Honor student standing over his
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Speaker 1: mother's bed just moments before he stabs her dead.
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Speaker 2: Joining me.
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Speaker 1: A longtime friend and colleague, Master Sergeant Ron Livingston with
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Speaker 1: the Florida Highway Patrol thirty.
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Speaker 2: Plus years in law enforcement.
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Speaker 1: Ron, I want you to take a listen to our
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Speaker 1: cut twelve more of than nine one one call. And
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Speaker 1: the reason I keep playing that is because it's very
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Speaker 1: hard for me to look.
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Speaker 2: At this kid.
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Speaker 1: And he is a kid, as Jason Ocean's accurately pointed out,
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Speaker 1: and his whole past behavior is completely completely opposite of
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Speaker 1: that one act of murder. But listen to this nine
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Speaker 1: one one call, Ron Livingston, I need.
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Speaker 4: To know if your moments is breathing.
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Speaker 7: Right all over the floor and why did you kill
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Speaker 7: your mom?
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Speaker 1: I need to know that you think we can help
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Speaker 1: your mom.
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Speaker 8: She could bring.
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Speaker 7: Over here what I live. What did you add you? Yes,
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Speaker 7: I took pictures and I told my friends about it
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Speaker 7: with that bad Do.
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Speaker 9: You talk old about it my friends?
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Speaker 4: Your friends, that you send pictures to your friends the
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Speaker 4: what you did?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, do not open.
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Speaker 4: Until I tell you to open the door, and to
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Speaker 4: make sure that you have nothing but yourself on in
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Speaker 4: your hands.
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Speaker 7: They're gonna tell me, No.
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Speaker 4: They're not gonna kill you.
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Speaker 2: We're here to help you.
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Speaker 4: Okay, We're gonna help your family.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay to Master Sergeant Ron Livingston, run If this
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Speaker 1: were an adult, I would be arguing right now. How
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Speaker 1: clearly he knows exactly what's going on. He has not
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Speaker 1: had a psychotic break. He is not insane. He knows
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Speaker 1: are coming in. He says, are they gonna kill me?
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Speaker 1: She says, do you have anything in your hands? He goes,
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Speaker 1: I've got a cell phone. Do you have anything else?
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Speaker 8: No?
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Speaker 1: Are they gonna kill me? He knows exactly what's gonna happen.
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Speaker 1: If cops come to the scene and he's got a
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Speaker 1: gun in his hands, they're gonna kill him. So there's
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Speaker 1: no way he's gonna be able to argue any kind
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Speaker 1: of insanity. Ron Livingston have you ever seen anything like
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Speaker 1: this or even closely akin to this.
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Speaker 8: You know, we're seeing this over and over and you know,
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Speaker 8: with with social media, with you know, with kids, they're
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Speaker 8: so focused on you know, social media, and you know
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Speaker 8: they watch all the bad things that that happen out here.
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Speaker 8: And so you know, the media has portrayed law enforcement,
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Speaker 8: you know, to be bad, which you know we're not.
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Speaker 8: We're there to help you, We're there to help everybody.
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Speaker 8: And so I think that's been the biggest you know,
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Speaker 8: as far as the portraying media and stuff, as far
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Speaker 8: as law enforcement. So I would assume that's where he's
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Speaker 8: getting this. The law enforcement's going to kill me and
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Speaker 8: we're not. We're there to help preserve the scene, to
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Speaker 8: start the investigation. Obviously, we have to take make sure
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Speaker 8: the threat is under control in law enforcement. There is
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Speaker 8: no threat in to law enforcement once they arrived too.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Tim Gallagher joining me.
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Speaker 1: We're now a medical examiner of the State of Florida,
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Speaker 1: lecturer University of Florida Medical School in the Forensic Medicine Division,
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Speaker 1: founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Doctor Gallagher,
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Speaker 1: this happened in your jurisdiction. This isn't Hialiah. Could you
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Speaker 1: explain to me? Is there any way that this new
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Speaker 1: mother his mother. She's got a little baby girl, fourteen
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Speaker 1: days old, and she's sleeping in the room with the baby.
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Speaker 1: Is there any way that the mother didn't feel what
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Speaker 1: happened to her? She was asleep when she was attacked.
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Speaker 1: I don't see away, but is there a way?
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Speaker 5: Most likely not, you know, unless she was asleep under
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Speaker 5: the influence of some substance. But when people get stabbed
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Speaker 5: and they are sober, they feel every second of it.
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Speaker 5: You know, you don't die from the stabbing. You actually
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Speaker 5: die from bleeding to death. So that takes quite a while,
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Speaker 5: and in that time, you were very, very aware of
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Speaker 5: what's happening, to the pain, your surroundings, who is doing
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Speaker 5: it to you, And that can go on for several
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Speaker 5: minutes before you finally sanguinate or bleed to death. So yes,
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Speaker 5: if she was not on the influence of anything that
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Speaker 5: was putting her asleep, she felt every second of it,
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Speaker 5: knew what was happening, and felt her life slipping.
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Speaker 6: Away from her.
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Speaker 9: Nancy, can I just yeah, I just wanted to jump
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Speaker 9: in out a little detail to that that he there
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Speaker 9: were some report that while we know that she was
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Speaker 9: stabbed in the bed, her body was discovered on the floor.
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Speaker 9: So I don't know if she had rolled off the bed,
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Speaker 9: or had tried to climb out of the bed, or
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Speaker 9: if they're going to be defensive wounds. But the body
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Speaker 9: was found on the floor, so that indicates to me
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Speaker 9: that she moved in some way, shape or form before
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Speaker 9: ultimately exseguinating.
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Speaker 1: And that adds to what that supports what you're saying,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher, that she knew very well what was
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Speaker 1: happening and was trying to either get away or protect
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Speaker 1: her baby. I don't know what she was doing, but
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Speaker 1: she did get out of bed. What do you make
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Speaker 1: of that, doctor Gallagher?
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Speaker 5: Well, if you think about the emotional state that she
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Speaker 5: was in, you know, she just had this baby, so
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Speaker 5: she's in the mother bear mode. You know, she really
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Speaker 5: wants to protect the baby. Yet she's being attacked by
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Speaker 5: her son, who she's also there to protect because he's
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Speaker 5: really not of age to do that for.
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Speaker 6: Himself, you know.
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Speaker 5: So she was probably torn between those two circumstances in
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Speaker 5: a very unusual and very critical time of her life.
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Speaker 5: There and just I could see the confusion I could see,
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Speaker 5: you know why she was thinking, why is this happening
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Speaker 5: to me? You know what is going on? And just
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Speaker 5: a very very confusing point. And I'd like to know
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Speaker 5: if she did have any defensive wounds on her. But
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Speaker 5: just a crazy, crazy situation, just very very unusual.
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Speaker 1: New photos show the moment that the thirteen year old
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Speaker 1: hovered over his mom's bed before he stabbed her in
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Speaker 1: the neck dead with a kitchen knife. He has entered
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Speaker 1: a not guilty plea, but so far has not indicated
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Speaker 1: any type of a mental illness defense. We know that
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Speaker 1: she was lying on the floor next to the baby's crib.
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Speaker 1: I wonder if she was trying to make her way
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Speaker 1: to the baby.
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Speaker 6: I would hope, so, yeah, I would certainly hope.
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Speaker 1: So oh gosh, guys, we are talking about a teen
21:00
Speaker 1: year old boy, deark Rosa, who was now charged with
21:05
Speaker 1: first degree murder in the stabbing death of his own mother,
21:10
Speaker 1: lying right next to her his fourteen day old little sister.
21:16
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker joining us dailymail dot com. Caitlin, how many
21:19
Speaker 1: times was the mother stamped?
21:21
Speaker 9: I don't know the exact number, Nancy, but I do
21:23
Speaker 9: know that it was multiple times. It was a very
21:26
Speaker 9: bloody scene and it was specifically in that sort of
21:29
Speaker 9: neck and upper region.
21:30
Speaker 1: To Jason Oshan is joining US high profile lawyer out
21:33
Speaker 1: of New York and New Jersey. You know he is
21:36
Speaker 1: going to be charged as an adult. There's really no choice.
21:39
Speaker 1: What do you make of it?
21:40
Speaker 3: No disagreement, Nancy. I mean, you know, when you have
21:44
Speaker 3: the direct evidence, as you do as a prosecutor here,
21:47
Speaker 3: you're pretty limited in your defense. I think the approach,
21:52
Speaker 3: Nancy is, you know, some sort of a free and
21:56
Speaker 3: hopefully you're getting him, you know, mental health assistance because
21:59
Speaker 3: as the doctor is going to get something snapped.
22:02
Speaker 1: You do know, Jayson Oshins, which we have discussed many
22:05
Speaker 1: many times, snapped is not a defense. There's no such
22:08
Speaker 1: thing as I snapped or everybody in the full accounty
22:11
Speaker 1: you know what say I snapped and that I'll all
22:13
Speaker 1: be walking out right now.
22:14
Speaker 3: It may be snapping and saying it at the same
22:16
Speaker 3: time as out, but for Layman's terms, we understand what
22:19
Speaker 3: that is. Jury would understand that it's not a defense.
22:24
Speaker 3: It's just discovering the underneath motive, which background doesn't consistently
22:31
Speaker 3: doesn't in any way you know, fit the violence of
22:35
Speaker 3: the act. It just doesn't, Nancy, You and I both
22:38
Speaker 3: know that. And so in this case, as you're dealing
22:40
Speaker 3: with an almost a barely thirteen year old, just a
22:43
Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago was twelve, you're constrained in thinking
22:46
Speaker 3: that this young man should spend the rest of his
22:49
Speaker 3: life in prison. It's not death penalty elviable, Supreme Court
22:52
Speaker 3: is I'm not.
22:52
Speaker 2: Thinking anything right now.
22:55
Speaker 1: The duty of the prosecutor is to seek justice for
22:58
Speaker 1: the state, and the state represents the victim, the crime victim.
23:03
Speaker 1: The crime victim in this case is Arena Garcia, just
23:07
Speaker 1: thirty nine years old when she was brutally murdered, stabbed
23:11
Speaker 1: multiple times as she lying next to her fourteen day
23:15
Speaker 1: old baby girl. That's the interest that I have. I
23:20
Speaker 1: also care about what if anything went wrong with this
23:26
Speaker 1: young boy. He is going to be charged as an adult,
23:31
Speaker 1: as he should be. And yes, I have tried a
23:34
Speaker 1: thirteen year old for murder. In that case, the thirteen
23:40
Speaker 1: year old six three or four broke into a pawn shop, well,
23:44
Speaker 1: crashed into a pawn shop, murdered, one left, another in
23:48
Speaker 1: a wheelchair, and a third shot I believe with a
23:51
Speaker 1: colostomy bag over a handful of dope ropes, which is
23:57
Speaker 1: gold chains. Is this doctor Garbarina please Japan dot Ner Garborini.
24:02
Speaker 10: Thank you. You know, I think, having worked on a
24:05
Speaker 10: number of these juvenile cases over the year, and in
24:08
Speaker 10: quite a number, I always think that we need to
24:11
Speaker 10: figure out which group they're in to start with. There
24:15
Speaker 10: is a group even at thirteen, as you point out,
24:18
Speaker 10: who are so damaged that they know it's going to
24:22
Speaker 10: take at least twenty years for them to recover. They
24:25
Speaker 10: need to get to age twenty five, and we can
24:27
Speaker 10: presume a mature brain, and then they need at least
24:30
Speaker 10: ten years to use that mature brain to transform themselves
24:34
Speaker 10: and rehabilitate and educate and all the rest of that.
24:37
Speaker 10: And the evidence is actually pretty good that they can
24:40
Speaker 10: get better, most of them do. That's really what's come
24:43
Speaker 10: out of the Milli versus Alabama decision about not sending
24:48
Speaker 10: juveniles to life without parole. That's one group.
24:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can no longer stand a javenile to life
24:53
Speaker 1: with that parole, just like you cannot get a sentence
24:57
Speaker 1: of death penalty on a javenile.
24:58
Speaker 10: Right. The second group our kids who have basically been
25:03
Speaker 10: intact in childhood, but they have a kind of adolescent crisis.
25:07
Speaker 10: It's often it's the onset of schizophrenia. It's a drug
25:11
Speaker 10: related thing, it's a influence of negative peers, a variety
25:17
Speaker 10: of things. The good news about them is most of
25:20
Speaker 10: them actually could be dealt with as a juvenile setting
25:23
Speaker 10: aside the severity of the crime, which may preclude that
25:27
Speaker 10: for political and moral and legal issues. But they typically
25:31
Speaker 10: you know, a guy once said to me in prison,
25:33
Speaker 10: how can I get How can I be rehabilitated if
25:37
Speaker 10: I was never habilitated in the first place. And that's
25:40
Speaker 10: an important point. It sounds like this boy was abilitated.
25:43
Speaker 10: So this is a crisis that we need to understand
25:46
Speaker 10: what's brought on the crisis, and he could be restored.
25:48
Speaker 10: There is a third group. It's a much smaller group.
25:51
Speaker 10: Who are you know, as a Supreme Court said, irreparably corrupt.
25:55
Speaker 10: These are the kids who are simply on their way
25:57
Speaker 10: to becoming full blown psychopaths. And you know, I've worked
26:01
Speaker 10: enough cases too where it's not a matter of them
26:04
Speaker 10: getting better. It's not so much a matter of a crisis.
26:07
Speaker 10: It's a matter of something so profoundly wrong with them
26:11
Speaker 10: that it would take a miracle to you know, to
26:13
Speaker 10: transform that. So that's why I say, we need to
26:16
Speaker 10: understand who this is. I understand as a prosecutor, if I
26:19
Speaker 10: sit across from a lot of prosecutors. You know, one
26:22
Speaker 10: one prosecutor in Florida said to me, I lived with
26:24
Speaker 10: the stench of death, and I understand that mentality. But
26:28
Speaker 10: you know, the interest of the state here should also
26:31
Speaker 10: be taking care of this boy.
26:33
Speaker 1: Well, I've got a question for you, doctor Garbarina. Who
26:36
Speaker 1: could the birth of the little baby sister have been
26:39
Speaker 1: some sort of a triggering event for him?
26:41
Speaker 10: Well, certainly could have been. You know, it seems to
26:44
Speaker 10: have happened in such close time proximity. You know, as
26:48
Speaker 10: I understand that he was the only child before. Who
26:52
Speaker 10: knows what this meant to him? You know, it's it's
26:55
Speaker 10: the result of a stepfather in pregnant hitting his mother.
26:58
Speaker 10: Who knows what that meant to him? You know, because
27:01
Speaker 10: from a child's point of view, regardless of how good
27:04
Speaker 10: the relationship is with the stepfather, he is an intruder
27:07
Speaker 10: in a sense. So you know, we have to understand
27:10
Speaker 10: what this meant to him, because you know, I think
27:12
Speaker 10: there's no such thing as senseless act of violence. It
27:15
Speaker 10: always makes sense, you know, if we get inside the
27:18
Speaker 10: head of the perpetrator enough, it makes sense. We may
27:21
Speaker 10: not accept it, we may not appreciate it, but we
27:25
Speaker 10: have to get there. And I think, you know, I've
27:27
Speaker 10: had some good experiences even in Florida, where prosecutors have
27:31
Speaker 10: understood this, and so they they're willing to take a
27:35
Speaker 10: plea that involves in taking care of this troubled boy.
27:39
Speaker 1: Well, I want you to hear something else. Dotor Garborrino
27:42
Speaker 1: and everyone on the panel. Listen to the boys' behavior. Afterwards,
27:49
Speaker 1: take a listen an hour cut seven from our friends
27:52
Speaker 1: at crime online dot com.
27:54
Speaker 11: Neighbors in Hi Leah, Florida, shot footage as police showed
27:57
Speaker 11: up to arrest a killer. The scene, filmed by neighbor
28:00
Speaker 11: and post it online. Is not a crazed maniac. This
28:04
Speaker 11: murderer is a thirteen year old honor student. The boy
28:07
Speaker 11: is standing timidly on the balcony of his apartment as
28:09
Speaker 11: he is on the phone with nine to one one.
28:11
Speaker 11: The boy called to confess, and now the nine one
28:14
Speaker 11: one operator is giving him instructions. The boy follows the instructions,
28:17
Speaker 11: putting his hands up in the air and obeying the
28:19
Speaker 11: police directly in front of him. When the police finally
28:22
Speaker 11: get close enough, they take Derek Rosa to the ground hard.
28:26
Speaker 11: He's put in handcuffs and taken away.
28:28
Speaker 1: To Caitlin Becker joining us, seeing investigative reporter dailymail dot com.
28:32
Speaker 1: He clearly is following instructions. He understands what's happening. He
28:37
Speaker 1: is not out of his mind. He's not having a
28:40
Speaker 1: psychotic break. All that is actually going to work against
28:44
Speaker 1: him at trial because he clearly knows what's going on
28:48
Speaker 1: and he knows what he did was wrong.
28:50
Speaker 2: Caitlin, you hear.
28:52
Speaker 9: That sadness and that remorse in the call. You can
28:55
Speaker 9: hear him getting choked up and being overwhelmed by his
28:58
Speaker 9: alleged actions. I do think that will work against him
29:02
Speaker 9: at trial. But Nancy on the flip side, At one point,
29:05
Speaker 9: the dispatcher asks him his address. He doesn't know his address.
29:08
Speaker 9: I feel like a defense attorney's going to say this
29:11
Speaker 9: thirteen year old boy who is barely even thirteen, who
29:14
Speaker 9: didn't even know where he lived, didn't understand the magnitude
29:17
Speaker 9: of his actions. Maybe until after it was it was done.
29:22
Speaker 9: I don't know. I think that a jury might look
29:25
Speaker 9: at the nine one one call and hear this broken
29:29
Speaker 9: little boy calling and you know, talking to the dispatcher
29:33
Speaker 9: and responding to her no miss, yes, miss, and being
29:36
Speaker 9: polite and sort of trying to rectify that version of
29:40
Speaker 9: the child who's on the phone with the brutality of
29:42
Speaker 9: the murder. I think it's going to be tough.
29:44
Speaker 1: To Jason Otionans, a veteran trial lawyer, and I'm going
29:47
Speaker 1: to quote verbat him the law one may immediately regret
29:52
Speaker 1: the date, but that regret does not negate intent at
29:57
Speaker 1: the time of the act. Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.
30:16
Speaker 1: He's caught on the baby cam killing her. He admits
30:20
Speaker 1: to the nine on one operator. He even sends pictures
30:23
Speaker 1: of his mom's dead body to friends. They better think
30:26
Speaker 1: of a defense, and think of it fast. He has
30:29
Speaker 1: to creep into the mother's room while she lay sleeping.
30:32
Speaker 1: He waits until the moment she is asleep, in the
30:34
Speaker 1: dark of the night. He goes in with a knife.
30:37
Speaker 1: He goes into the mother's bedroom with a knife. There
30:41
Speaker 1: are multiple stabs. Premeditation can be formed in the twinkling
30:47
Speaker 1: of a moment, so between each stab is another period
30:54
Speaker 1: in which premeditation can be formed.
30:56
Speaker 2: That's what premeditation means.
30:58
Speaker 1: Now, it may not mean that to a lay person
31:01
Speaker 1: on this street, but the jury, if there is one,
31:03
Speaker 1: will be instructed that that is what premeditation means. It's
31:07
Speaker 1: not a long drawn out scheme such as someone poisoning
31:10
Speaker 1: the victim over a period of months or even years.
31:13
Speaker 1: It can be formed in an instant. So he has premeditation.
31:18
Speaker 1: He knows what he is doing is wrong.
31:21
Speaker 2: What about that and nance.
31:23
Speaker 3: I'm not going to disagree with you in any of
31:26
Speaker 3: your approach and your prosecutorial position. You've explained it, well,
31:29
Speaker 3: you've articulated it.
31:31
Speaker 8: You're going to go ahead.
31:32
Speaker 3: The only thing I would say, relative to being counsel
31:35
Speaker 3: for the defenders, don't over prosecute because he's notwithstanding all
31:40
Speaker 3: of your case, he's still sympathetic at barely.
31:42
Speaker 2: Thirty, Yes he is, he is too.
31:45
Speaker 1: Master Sergeant Ron Livingston joining us out of this jurisdiction
31:47
Speaker 1: in Florida, are giminals this age housed in an adult
31:56
Speaker 1: jail facility, No.
31:57
Speaker 8: Ma'am, they will be how in a juvenile detention facility
32:04
Speaker 8: in the state of Florida. We're not allowed. Juveniles are
32:06
Speaker 8: not allowed to be in a jail with adults longer
32:09
Speaker 8: than six hours, So process, what's the process? They're taken
32:14
Speaker 8: out and turned over the Department of Juvenile Justice.
32:17
Speaker 2: In the last hours.
32:18
Speaker 1: This young man, thirteen year old Derreck Rosa, has pled
32:22
Speaker 1: not guilty in a court of law. And you may
32:26
Speaker 1: be very surprised at what happens in court, taking us
32:31
Speaker 1: now our cut.
32:31
Speaker 10: Ah, it's very unfortunate that this tragedy occurred. But this
32:36
Speaker 10: child is very humble, very peaceful.
32:39
Speaker 1: Now you are hearing his father, his biological father, mister Rossa,
32:47
Speaker 1: in court. He describes his son as humble and peaceful
32:52
Speaker 1: and more. Takeing us now our cut and be as
32:55
Speaker 1: in brother.
32:55
Speaker 10: It's hard for us to explain how this occurred.
33:00
Speaker 7: You know, it's it's difficult, but I guess what we're
33:03
Speaker 7: asking for to another opportunity. It's second chance to help
33:07
Speaker 7: him grow and become mature, as to grow mad, to
33:11
Speaker 7: put this.
33:12
Speaker 2: Behind him, to say we have your back, were here
33:16
Speaker 2: to support you.
33:17
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker are joining us from dailymail dot com. What
33:19
Speaker 1: happened in court or it.
33:21
Speaker 9: Was really emotional. Not only was it the young boy's
33:25
Speaker 9: father was also his grandmother. They spent some twenty letters
33:28
Speaker 9: of support trying to get him a little bit of leniency,
33:32
Speaker 9: and in court when the charges were upgraded to first
33:36
Speaker 9: degree murder and he was charged as an adult, he
33:39
Speaker 9: was taken out of the juvenile facility and remanded into
33:43
Speaker 9: an adult facility. I don't know how long he stayed
33:46
Speaker 9: there or if he's still there, but his attorney in court,
33:49
Speaker 9: attorney Kristin Renoso, had plans to request what's called in
33:55
Speaker 9: arthur hearing to try to secure him bond, even though
33:57
Speaker 9: it's not a bondifule eventse and she also requested in
34:00
Speaker 9: court that her client be returned to juvenile custody, but
34:03
Speaker 9: that is something the judge said that they would have
34:05
Speaker 9: to determine at a later date and they were going
34:07
Speaker 9: to review all of that. So I do know he
34:10
Speaker 9: was taken into an adult facility. I don't know how
34:13
Speaker 9: long he would have remained, but he's going to stay
34:17
Speaker 9: in custody until his next hearing, which at this point
34:19
Speaker 9: isn't until February.
34:21
Speaker 1: Back to a master's chargeant Ron Livingston, it's confusing when
34:25
Speaker 1: you hear the verbiage that we just heard from Caitlin Becker,
34:29
Speaker 1: and everything she said is correct. The judge has to
34:33
Speaker 1: determine the exact age of the defendant, and that has
34:36
Speaker 1: to be weighed against the charges. But this juvenile will
34:41
Speaker 1: be housed separately from adults. He will not be in
34:46
Speaker 1: general population, he will not have an adult roommate.
34:50
Speaker 2: None of that's happening.
34:51
Speaker 1: He is being taken to an adult facility until it's
34:55
Speaker 1: sorted out where he should be because he's charged with murder.
34:59
Speaker 8: One.
35:00
Speaker 1: But in the state of Florida and across the country,
35:03
Speaker 1: juveniles are not put in sales or amongst grown men.
35:09
Speaker 2: That is not happening. Please confirm that is, ma'am.
35:13
Speaker 8: They cannot be an eyesight, nor can they speak or
35:16
Speaker 8: talk to any any adults. You know. Typically, and in
35:21
Speaker 8: this case might be a little different. I mean, the
35:23
Speaker 8: judge could actually overrule it. But typically the law in
35:29
Speaker 8: Florida is is that juvenile does not stay in.
35:31
Speaker 2: The in in an adult.
35:34
Speaker 8: Jail for longer than a process and then they're removed.
35:38
Speaker 8: Now Miami day, they might have a you know, a
35:41
Speaker 8: section that's completely segregated from the adults to where they
35:45
Speaker 8: put him and house him to where he is not
35:48
Speaker 8: in view contact, can't speak to any adults. That's that's
35:52
Speaker 8: very strictly prohibited.
35:53
Speaker 1: Yes, guys, I want you to also hear more of
35:57
Speaker 1: this young man's father, mister Rossa in court.
36:01
Speaker 7: Listen, Derek's mother recently had a child and she was
36:05
Speaker 7: overwhelmed with a lot of the work.
36:07
Speaker 4: Is not taking away anything from what occurred, and I
36:10
Speaker 4: wish he could bring you knows back to guests before
36:14
Speaker 4: that occurred.
36:15
Speaker 1: To doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the State of
36:19
Speaker 1: Florida and the founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death
36:23
Speaker 1: Investigation Conference, Doctor Gallagher, I want to go through we
36:27
Speaker 1: keep talking about the boy.
36:29
Speaker 2: What happened to the boy?
36:30
Speaker 1: The boys an honor student, He had always been timid,
36:33
Speaker 1: he was great son, very respectful, on and on and on.
36:36
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the mother. The new mother.
36:42
Speaker 1: Tell me what she went through as her life ebbed
36:48
Speaker 1: away from her and she tried valiantly to get over
36:52
Speaker 1: to the crib where her fourteen day old daughter was sleeping.
36:57
Speaker 5: Well, Nancy, I mean she's in a very very difficult position.
37:01
Speaker 5: As we discussed before, she is in fight or flight mode.
37:05
Speaker 5: Now she doesn't know whether to run and save her
37:08
Speaker 5: life or to run back to her crib and protect
37:12
Speaker 5: her newborn baby. So she is going to be in
37:14
Speaker 5: the presence of the sun with the knife, you know, for.
37:18
Speaker 6: As long as it takes.
37:20
Speaker 5: She's probably already received a fatal wound. She is bleeding,
37:24
Speaker 5: She's actively bleeding to death at this point, and she
37:28
Speaker 5: has a decision to make, you know, do I sacrifice
37:30
Speaker 5: my life for the safety of my newborn. Do I
37:35
Speaker 5: run and try to save myself, you know, by going
37:37
Speaker 5: out the door and exiting the situation. All this time,
37:42
Speaker 5: she is getting weaker. She is getting weaker, and the
37:46
Speaker 5: ability for her to reason is becoming less as the
37:49
Speaker 5: as less amount of blood can reach her brain and
37:52
Speaker 5: affect her reasoning center. So she is in a very
37:56
Speaker 5: difficult position in it. And it looked like ultimately she
37:59
Speaker 5: chose to protect her baby because that's approximately where she
38:03
Speaker 5: was found when she was deceased. So very very difficult situation.
38:07
Speaker 2: Doctor Gallagher.
38:09
Speaker 1: And I've done this myself in the case of my
38:13
Speaker 1: fiance being murdered. I like to tell myself, well, he
38:16
Speaker 1: didn't feel it, he didn't suffer because he was shot
38:19
Speaker 1: so many times in the face and the neck, in
38:22
Speaker 1: the head. But you know what, doctor Gallagher, that's probably
38:25
Speaker 1: not true because people that have survived gunshot wounds. Some
38:30
Speaker 1: of them have said I didn't even realize I was hit.
38:33
Speaker 1: Others say how much it hurt. Stab wounds have got
38:38
Speaker 1: to be just incredibly painful. I think she really suffered it.
38:45
Speaker 1: She got out of the bed and tried to get
38:47
Speaker 1: to the baby's crib. She knew she was bleeding, she
38:51
Speaker 1: knew she had been stabbed. She probably knew who had
38:54
Speaker 1: stabbed her as she was dying. I have no doubt
38:58
Speaker 1: in my mind she suffered.
39:00
Speaker 6: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
39:02
Speaker 5: People who get shot in the bed don't even wake up,
39:04
Speaker 5: you know, they are found exactly where they were sleeping.
39:08
Speaker 6: But people who get stabbed wake up.
39:10
Speaker 5: They feel the pain, and they wake up and they
39:12
Speaker 5: try to defend themselves.
39:14
Speaker 6: And this apparently is the case here.
39:16
Speaker 5: And that's the result of knowing what's going on, of
39:19
Speaker 5: feeling the pain.
39:19
Speaker 6: Yes, they were suffering.
39:21
Speaker 10: I'm sorry, Nancy, this is Jim Garbarino again. You know,
39:23
Speaker 10: I think we haven't talked about. You know, obviously a
39:27
Speaker 10: lot of things here. One being you know, was committing
39:31
Speaker 10: this crime may have put him in a what's called
39:33
Speaker 10: a dissociate of a state that just disconnected, and that
39:38
Speaker 10: may be reflected in his call. But the other thing
39:40
Speaker 10: is he talks about having a gun and not using
39:43
Speaker 10: it on himself, which suggests that he chose the knife
39:46
Speaker 10: over the gun because he had access to both, and
39:50
Speaker 10: that I think may end up being significant and understanding
39:53
Speaker 10: the crime, because as you well know, stabbing is a
39:56
Speaker 10: very different internal process often than shoot And it really
40:02
Speaker 10: again suggests to me that there's something we don't know
40:05
Speaker 10: yet that's really deep and big and dark inside him
40:09
Speaker 10: that led to this particular form of attack. And again
40:13
Speaker 10: I think we just got to understand this because it's
40:17
Speaker 10: not like it's not like a lot of other murders
40:21
Speaker 10: that juvenile has committed. And I just hope the system
40:25
Speaker 10: will be able to find a way to understand that
40:28
Speaker 10: make sense of it. And I think, as I said,
40:31
Speaker 10: this gun versus knife issue may be a clue to
40:35
Speaker 10: what was going on.
40:36
Speaker 2: We wait as just as some point goodbye for that