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Nobody hates like the Labor Party - and their brawling could sink our submarines · The Front

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: It's Thursday, June four, twenty twenty six. The Iran war
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: has put Australia's economy into slow mo with growth at
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  Speaker 1: just zero point three percent for the March quarter and
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  Speaker 1: two point five percent for the year, below economists expectations.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Household spending is up, but the rate of growth in
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  Speaker 1: government spending has eased off. You can find out what
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: that means for all our jobs and our mortgages at
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot AU. Old enemies on one side,
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  Speaker 1: critics on the other. That's life these days for Richard Miles,
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  Speaker 1: the Deputy Prime Minister, Defense Minister and the man in
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  Speaker 1: charge of driving through the biggest military investment Australia's ever made,
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  Speaker 1: the nuclear powered Orcust submarines. So is the deal falling apart?
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  Speaker 1: Can Miles stare down the haters? Greeg Sheridan is here
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  Speaker 1: in just a moment. Greg Sheridan is The Australian's Foreign
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  Speaker 1: editor and Greg on Tuesday night, you and I were
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  Speaker 1: at a big defense summit in Canberra hosted by The
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  Speaker 1: Australian called Defending Australia. Richard Miles burst in out of
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  Speaker 1: a stormy Canberra knight, straight off a plane from overseas
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  Speaker 1: and launched into a very fiery defense of the Orcus
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  Speaker 1: packed and the submarine deal that Australia's signed up to.
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  Speaker 2: A cursory glance of the map makes it unthinkable that
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  Speaker 2: we would not have a cutting edge long range submarine capability.
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  Speaker 2: There is only one choice here, and that is that
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  Speaker 2: we stick and that's what we're.
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  Speaker 1: Going to do.
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  Speaker 3: Why is Richard Miles so fired up?
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  Speaker 4: Well, Claire, Basically, I think the government and Richard Miles
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  Speaker 4: in particular have a complete glass jaw on Orcas. They
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  Speaker 4: panic when it's criticized because in their own execution and
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  Speaker 4: it is so incoherent and doesn't kind of quite make sense.
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  Speaker 4: The government is not spending anything like enough money and
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  Speaker 4: it's not leveling with the Australian people about the money required.
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  Speaker 4: The government would be much more relaxed and much more
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  Speaker 4: effective in selling this program if they would tell us
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  Speaker 4: honestly the details of the program, and if those details
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  Speaker 4: didn't keep shifting.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: The big shift that's happened now is that Australia, instead
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  Speaker 1: of getting too lightly used in service. They call it
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  Speaker 1: Virginia class submarines from the United States and one new boat.
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  Speaker 3: Australia is going to get three used boats.
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  Speaker 1: Now, both the head of the Defense Department and Richard
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  Speaker 1: Miles are trying to say that that was either always
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  Speaker 1: the deal or it's the best deal that we can get,
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  Speaker 1: and in fact it's better than having one new boat.
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  Speaker 1: At least with a used boat, we know it's not
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  Speaker 1: going to leak, don't we.
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  Speaker 4: I think the government's arguments and explanations on ucas are
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  Speaker 4: completely preposterous and just don't pass the pub test. They
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  Speaker 4: are not common since have you ever been to a
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  Speaker 4: kyard where the dealer says, look, I'm sorry, I haven't
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  Speaker 4: got a used vehicle, but I'll sell you a new
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  Speaker 4: one just to make up. Under the original deal, we
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  Speaker 4: were not only meant to get three Virginia class submarines
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  Speaker 4: from the United States, but we were meant to have
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  Speaker 4: an option for a fourth and a fifth Virginia from
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  Speaker 4: the United States. Because nobody believes the British will be
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  Speaker 4: ready with the new Orcust design by the twenty forties,
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  Speaker 4: British submarine program is in a worse state, much worse
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  Speaker 4: state than the Americans. They are years and years and
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  Speaker 4: years behind, way underfunded, and as a result they won't
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  Speaker 4: come aboard on time. Therefore, it was always a contingency
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  Speaker 4: that we could get boats four and five from the Americans.
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  Speaker 4: Now they seem to have simply completely banished. They've completely disappeared.
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  Speaker 4: Partly because I think the Americans are saying to themselves
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  Speaker 4: clearly they are not reducing submarines quickly ener but also
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  Speaker 4: they must have a real doubts about Australia's ability to
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  Speaker 4: do any of this. The Australian National Order Office tells
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  Speaker 4: us that we can't run our landing helicopter dog ships properly,
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  Speaker 4: which are very very simple ships. The idea that we
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  Speaker 4: can run a nucleus submarine, much less build one is nuts.
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  Speaker 1: One of the reasons I love talking to you about
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  Speaker 1: defense spending, Greg is that you managed to make it
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  Speaker 1: hilarious fun of the Defense Department's capability of ordering expensive
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  Speaker 1: new platforms, then requesting amendments, then struggling to get their
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  Speaker 1: heads around them once they're actually in service, just unpacking. Though,
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  Speaker 1: what exactly is happening in this submarines deal? Is this
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  Speaker 1: not potentially an answer to that critique of yours. So
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  Speaker 1: we're getting Virginia class boats from the United States that
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  Speaker 1: we already know that they work. Then we're getting the
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  Speaker 1: UK's building Orcust class submarines that we're going to be using.
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  Speaker 1: And we're also going to build our own Orchust class
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  Speaker 1: submarines in collaboration with the Brits. Putting it to one's
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  Speaker 1: side whether or not the Bridge can actually build the
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  Speaker 1: submarines or whether the Americans are going to give us
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  Speaker 1: any Is this the way Australia's defense procurement should run?
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  Speaker 1: Do you think that we do try to build things
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  Speaker 1: ourselves here in Australia where we can sustain them.
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  Speaker 4: No, no, no, and no let misty at every point.
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  Speaker 4: This is just a cavalcade of comedy and madness at
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  Speaker 4: every point. Yes, we should simply buy something and use it.
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  Speaker 4: So in the three Australian services, the Air Force is
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  Speaker 4: technologically the most sophisticated and the most reliable. Why is
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  Speaker 4: the Air Force technologically superiority to the others because it
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  Speaker 4: simply buys American aeroplanes and puts Australian pilots in them.
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  Speaker 4: Nobody says we should make an F thirty five in Australia,
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  Speaker 4: we lost our car manufacturing industry. We can't make cars.
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  Speaker 4: Nuclear submarines may be the most complex artifact that the
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  Speaker 4: human race has ever produced. Think of it. Think of
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  Speaker 4: what a nuclear submarine is. It's an independent nuclear reactor
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  Speaker 4: operating all the time, hundreds of feet below the sea
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  Speaker 4: in a high speed, maneuvering, fast changing sea vessel, surrounded
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  Speaker 4: by the most lethal weapons. Humanity can devise astonishing communication
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  Speaker 4: senses which allow it to communicate from deep underwater and
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  Speaker 4: with a crew. In the case of the Virginias one
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  Speaker 4: hundred and fifteen human beings. Well, if you can't make
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  Speaker 4: a Holden commodore, it's very hard to imagine that you
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  Speaker 4: can make one of those. So the logical thing for
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  Speaker 4: Australia to do with the nuclear submarines is simply to
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  Speaker 4: acquire the Virginias. And if we could buy a fleet
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  Speaker 4: over the years of eight Virginias and its successes from
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  Speaker 4: the Americans, this would be very analogous to the F
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  Speaker 4: thirty five as a joint strike fighter. There are so
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  Speaker 4: many advantages to doing that. You stay on the American
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  Speaker 4: glide path of increased technical development. So as each evolution
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  Speaker 4: of the new thing comes along, you get it. With
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  Speaker 4: the Americans. I mean, we've had catastrophes with the Collins
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  Speaker 4: class submarines and they are like building a washing machine
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  Speaker 4: compared to building a nuclear submarine. But the whole program fails.
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  Speaker 4: Even earlier than that, we haven't increased our defense expenditure
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  Speaker 4: at all, despite what Richard Miles says. Next year it's
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  Speaker 4: going to be two percent of GDP measured in the
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  Speaker 4: traditional way. It was two percent of GDP when Albanese
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  Speaker 4: took office. So we had an inadequate defense budget before
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  Speaker 4: we had nuclear submarines. We've added nuclear submarines to it,
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  Speaker 4: and we haven't increased the defense budget. And now we
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  Speaker 4: have such a dog's breakfast of a program. We're going
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  Speaker 4: to get some Virginias from the Americans, perhaps if they
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  Speaker 4: still think that it's worth doing in the twenty thirties.
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  Speaker 4: Then we have this miracle faith that the Brits will
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  Speaker 4: have devised a brand new nuclear submarine which they can
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  Speaker 4: help us build, even though they can't build it itself. Now. Honestly,
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  Speaker 4: if any of this actually happens, Claire, I promise you
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  Speaker 4: come back to me in twenty fifty and I will
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  Speaker 4: buy any listener dinner in a restaurant at their choice.
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  Speaker 4: If any of this remotely comes.
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  Speaker 3: To pass, I can't wait.
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  Speaker 1: I'm glad about the optimism that we're all going to
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  Speaker 1: be alive in twenty fifty if Aucust doesn't kill us now,
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  Speaker 1: Richard Marles, the other reason he's all fired up is
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  Speaker 1: that he's being attacked or August is certainly being attacked
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  Speaker 1: from both the left and the right.
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  Speaker 3: Let's start with the right.
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  Speaker 1: Edhuzick is a member of the New South Wales Right
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  Speaker 1: faction of the Labor Party. Richard Marles is from the
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  Speaker 1: Victorian Right, and last year Edhusick lost his position in
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  Speaker 1: the ministry thanks to factional maneuvering, which he blamed on
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  Speaker 1: Richard Miles, so old enemies within Labor. I love these
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  Speaker 1: interonisan wars within factions of the Australian Labor Party. But
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  Speaker 1: now Edhuzick is taking his revenge by coming out publicly
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  Speaker 1: after Australia announced we'd be getting three used Virginia class
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  Speaker 1: boats and saying well, this is not the deal we
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  Speaker 1: will promised. We need to have another look at this
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  Speaker 1: in the Labor caucus. We need to really start again
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  Speaker 1: with orcas. I think that it now gives us a
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  Speaker 1: moment to think about whether or not the deal should
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  Speaker 1: be reconfigured, or what are the contingencies.
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  Speaker 3: What do you think is going on? There? Is Ed
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  Speaker 3: who'sick just trouble making or does he have a point?
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  Speaker 4: Well, the New South Wales Right has really kind of
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  Speaker 4: collapsed in terms of any meaning to the word right.
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  Speaker 4: The New South Wales Right now consists of figures like
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  Speaker 4: Tourny Burke and Chris Bowen and Ed Husick. Well, they
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  Speaker 4: have no national security profile at all, and also a
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  Speaker 4: lot of them represent electrics with a very large Muslim minority,
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  Speaker 4: which has contributed to them being tremendously anti Israel, which
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  Speaker 4: contributes to them being anti American. They're all very anti Trump,
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  Speaker 4: which is perfectly understandable. Uncritical of Trump myself, Hughsick has
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  Speaker 4: become a tremendous hater of Israel and critic of a
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  Speaker 4: Australian government policy for being too soft on Israel, and
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  Speaker 4: by extension, he's become a tremendous critic of the United States.
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  Speaker 4: And you'd have to say probably Trump and UCAS are
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  Speaker 4: unpopular among the labor membership, partly, as I say, because
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  Speaker 4: the government has not explained this at all, you know,
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  Speaker 4: unlike Bob Hawk and Kim Beasley when they rejected the
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: New Zealand option of banning the visit of US nuclear
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  Speaker 4: powered ships to Australian ports. Hawk and Beasley and their
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  Speaker 4: lieutenants went all through the labor movement and talked and
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  Speaker 4: talked and talked about the rationale for this. They attended
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  Speaker 4: trade union meetings, they had their surrogates up and down
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  Speaker 4: all over Australia, convincing the labor movement that this was
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  Speaker 4: in Australia's national interest and it was morally right. Males
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  Speaker 4: and Albanezi are nothing like this. They're trying to conduct
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  Speaker 4: orcus in secret. So anybody who is discontented within the
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  Speaker 4: Labor Party and wants to have a shot at them
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  Speaker 4: for any factional reason or for any other reason, Augus
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  Speaker 4: is already made way to go. And then the opposition
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  Speaker 4: to AUCUS has got the blessing of Paul Keating, So
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  Speaker 4: there's a sort of a spiritual benediction from a labor hero.
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  Speaker 4: And I think it's quite possible that Alberizi and Males
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  Speaker 4: could lose control of this within the Labor Party. They
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  Speaker 4: haven't so far. I think it would be insane for
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  Speaker 4: us to leave this deal. My criticism is that we
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  Speaker 4: also need to produce a defense force and we should
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  Speaker 4: be straightforward about what the deal and tails. But I
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: think Hughsick is probably fishing in very troubled waters here.
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  Speaker 4: And the fact that a lot of other labor luminaries,
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  Speaker 4: Peter Garrett and Carmen Lawrence and so on, are going
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: down the same line. Bob Carr is another is a
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: sign that the government has not sold August because it's
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: just it's so confused.
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  Speaker 1: You mentioned Peter Garrett, and just finally let's talk about that.
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  Speaker 1: He is a former labor minister, of course, former rockstar.
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  Speaker 1: He is announcing a crowd funded public inquiry into orcas.
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: There was never a debate in the Parliament and that
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: is a massive abrogation of the democratic process when the
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: Parliament of the Land has never stood up and examined
• 12:13
  Speaker 5: this matter in any level of detail. And that's what's
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: going to happen with this public inquiry. When we talk
• 12:18
  Speaker 5: about ORCUS, we're talking about a half eight trillion dollars
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: of expenditure of taxpayers money for submarines that may not
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: ever arrive.
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  Speaker 4: What do you think about that Titter Garrett is a
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: nice guy, very good human being. He has no doubt
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: about that. He comes from the anti nuclear left, and indeed,
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: embracing nuclear reactors on submarines is a very big move
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: for the Labor Party. Of course, it shows the complete
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: illogicality of Labour's position regarding the nuclear industry. Nuclear reactors
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: traveling at high speed at war surrounded by weapons are
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: apparently perfectly safe. But nuclear reactors on land in peaceful
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: circumstances in the most iologically stable continent on the world,
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: are apparently tremendously unsafe. So god alone knows how that
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: adds up. The Left under Albanesi has accepted Alberanesi's authority
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: for factional reasons. You know, the government has to be
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: allowed to function. But like the rest of the Australian public,
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: it has no idea what August adds up to and
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: how it is going to contribute to Australian security, and
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: how it is that Labor squares the circle of its
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: long standing opposition to all things nuclear with an embrace
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  Speaker 4: of nuclear submarines for war. I'm surprised in a way
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: that it's taken this long for the Left to get
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: organized I don't think this is going to destroy the
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: government or anything, but it just is a sign of
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: the increasing messiness of Australian politics. If you don't have
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: a coherent position, you will get eaten up by both
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: the left and the rights simultaneously, because they'll both to
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: take you for lack of transparency and they both project
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: onto you their darkest fears.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Well, Greg, I'll let you go and catch your plane.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on such a busy day.
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  Speaker 4: Thanks Claire.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Greg Sheridan is The Australian's Foreign editor. If you're interested
• 14:19
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• 14:23
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