Latest / The SME Stream / Musician Jon Toogood: How converting to Islam changed his views on money

Transcript

Musician Jon Toogood: How converting to Islam changed his views on money · The SME Stream

0:02
Speaker 1: Madama.
0:06
Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald's Business editor at
0:09
Speaker 2: Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This
0:13
Speaker 2: is a podcast about money, but we're not going to
0:16
Speaker 2: tell you how to get rich, and we're not going
0:18
Speaker 2: to try and pick the next interest rate move. In
0:21
Speaker 2: this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about
0:24
Speaker 2: how money has shaped their lives and what they've learned
0:27
Speaker 2: over the years. For today's podcast, I'm joined by singer
0:31
Speaker 2: songwriter and she had frontman John too Good Cura John.
0:35
Speaker 2: Welcome to Money.
0:36
Speaker 1: Talks, Cureda. How are you good.
0:37
Speaker 2: Thanks, I'm excited to have you here and excited to
0:40
Speaker 2: hear you're about to go on tour again across the
0:44
Speaker 2: country and first solo album. Is that right?
0:47
Speaker 1: It is the first solo album and which is weird
0:49
Speaker 1: after thirty three years in the industry, But it just
0:52
Speaker 1: it was circumstance, covid Lockdown's lots of personal family carnage,
0:57
Speaker 1: lost my mum, lost my brother in law. Yeah, so
1:00
Speaker 1: I just needed to I needed some gentle music, so
1:03
Speaker 1: I picked up my accous guitar and started writing. That
1:05
Speaker 1: was my way through, Like therapy. It was total therapy
1:07
Speaker 1: and you know what it's like out of pain, you know,
1:11
Speaker 1: I think some of the best words I've ever done,
1:13
Speaker 1: because it's like I had to be brutally honest with myself,
1:15
Speaker 1: you know. And I'm really proud of this record. It's
1:19
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing. I mean, I made it to sort
1:22
Speaker 1: of hold me, you know. It was supposed to be
1:25
Speaker 1: comforting to me, and it seems to. When I play
1:28
Speaker 1: the stuff live, there's always someone that comes up and says, well,
1:31
Speaker 1: that happened to me, you know, And yeah.
1:33
Speaker 2: I mean we've been privileged enough to ends you me
1:35
Speaker 2: to hear a couple of the songs and advance and
1:38
Speaker 2: it's pretty heavy stuff like you're talking about, but it
1:40
Speaker 2: doesn't come across that way musically. It's quite of uplifting.
1:44
Speaker 1: No, well, it is. It's supposed to be the way through.
1:47
Speaker 1: It's a way through. It's a way through. I mean,
1:48
Speaker 1: it's just life, you know. I mean I think, you know,
1:51
Speaker 1: my mum would prefer to have it that way than
1:55
Speaker 1: losing her children rather. You know, that's the way of
1:58
Speaker 1: the world. If you stick around long enough, going to
2:00
Speaker 1: lose someone that you love, you know, but Noine sort
2:03
Speaker 1: of prepares you for that. I think in the West,
2:04
Speaker 1: we sort of we're taught to sort of live like
2:08
Speaker 1: we're always going to be here, and then we're so
2:09
Speaker 1: shocked and surprised when someone dies. Yeah, and it's like yeah,
2:15
Speaker 1: so I think, yeah, it's good to break the stigma
2:18
Speaker 1: of that. I mean, it's just part of life, you know.
2:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, let's let's jump into some of the
2:23
Speaker 2: money talks questions, and some of that will be family
2:25
Speaker 2: and growing up and things. You know, if we went
2:28
Speaker 2: right back, do you what are your first memories of
2:30
Speaker 2: money in your life, holding it in your hand, that
2:33
Speaker 2: kind of thing.
2:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean we were I was basically brought
2:36
Speaker 1: up by two British immigrants ten pound poems, you know,
2:40
Speaker 1: both given ten pounds to come and start a new
2:42
Speaker 1: life on the other side of the planet. Dad was
2:45
Speaker 1: a cabinetmaker, Mum was a receptionist at State Insurance. We
2:50
Speaker 1: didn't have much growing up. Yeah, it was Wellington, right, Wellington.
2:54
Speaker 1: All the people I grew up calling auntie and uncle
2:56
Speaker 1: were all just the people that were on the boats
2:58
Speaker 1: with my parents. So I didn't It wasn't until I
3:01
Speaker 1: was seven and we went back to London to before
3:03
Speaker 1: I met real blood relatives. Or anything like that. So
3:06
Speaker 1: it was I suppose an immigrant experience, British immigrant experience.
3:10
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that we weren't very rich until I
3:15
Speaker 1: sort of went to high school and started hanging out
3:16
Speaker 1: with people that had more money than me, and then went, oh, okay, right,
3:19
Speaker 1: I mean I remember some of the happiest memories from
3:23
Speaker 1: childhood was like my parents to make it okay for
3:27
Speaker 1: the kids that we didn't have much. We'd sit around
3:30
Speaker 1: a gas heater with white bread on a big fork
3:33
Speaker 1: and toast the toast the bread. You know. It was
3:36
Speaker 1: like exciting, man, it was like and it was exciting.
3:38
Speaker 1: It was like, yeah, I get to cook my own food.
3:41
Speaker 1: But it was just one slice of bread. So yeah,
3:43
Speaker 1: it didn't really have much going up.
3:45
Speaker 2: Yeah did you get pocket money?
3:47
Speaker 1: Yeah? Once, yeah, I think once once we started. Yeah,
3:51
Speaker 1: we did. Actually, we all took We had a sort
3:54
Speaker 1: of a chart. You know. I had an older brother
3:57
Speaker 1: and sister, so you know, someone was drying, someone was washing,
4:00
Speaker 1: someone was looking after the car, and you know the
4:02
Speaker 1: lawns and stuff, and yeah, yeah, I used to do
4:05
Speaker 1: that for sure.
4:06
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things that comes through all the
4:08
Speaker 2: people I've talked on this podcast is that New Zealand
4:10
Speaker 2: in those days. You know, there wasn't such a huge disparit.
4:13
Speaker 2: You know, if you didn't have much money in the family,
4:16
Speaker 2: the things that people were doing with money, there wasn't
4:18
Speaker 2: as much going on, was it.
4:19
Speaker 1: No, not really. I never felt we were lacking anything like.
4:23
Speaker 1: It was very loving, supportive family life and all my
4:27
Speaker 1: friends were you know. I went to Island Bay Primary
4:30
Speaker 1: School in Wellington and everyone was from everywhere, you know,
4:34
Speaker 1: like and went to a public school. It was great.
4:38
Speaker 1: I loved it. I love my childhood in Island Bay.
4:41
Speaker 1: It was fantastic.
4:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean at school where it was music a
4:44
Speaker 2: thing right off the bat.
4:46
Speaker 1: Music was a thing even back in the family home.
4:48
Speaker 1: Like my two earliest memories is one was the Lolli
4:51
Speaker 1: jar because I really liked sugar, my parents' loliger and
4:54
Speaker 1: then the other one was my parents all in one
4:56
Speaker 1: record player and had a speaker built into it, and
4:59
Speaker 1: I used to just watch the Beatles Hard Day's Night
5:02
Speaker 1: go around and be fascinated by this alchemy of putting
5:06
Speaker 1: a needle down on a bit of plastic that was
5:08
Speaker 1: going around and then the south would be generated and
5:11
Speaker 1: I was like how it was alchemy, and I wanted
5:13
Speaker 1: to know, how do you do that? What is the
5:16
Speaker 1: process that they got there?
5:18
Speaker 2: The Beatles would have been huge, I guess apparance, but
5:20
Speaker 2: what were the other bands that sort of influenced those
5:23
Speaker 2: early early.
5:24
Speaker 1: Okay, so early on I had an older brother and sister.
5:27
Speaker 1: I think I mentioned I was very lucky to have
5:29
Speaker 1: that because they'd go out and make all those fashion mistakes,
5:32
Speaker 1: and some of those were great ideas, you know. So
5:35
Speaker 1: I think with my brother, he introduced me to things
5:37
Speaker 1: like the Jam I really liked, you know that that's
5:44
Speaker 1: entertainment and all that sort of sort of stuff. And
5:47
Speaker 1: my sister was more punk, so Stiff Little Fingers, Sex Pistols,
5:53
Speaker 1: Public Image Limited. She told me when I was getting older,
5:58
Speaker 1: she said, just before I hit high school, she said,
6:00
Speaker 1: you begin to heavy metal, old disowner. So I think,
6:02
Speaker 1: because I've got a rebellious spirit, I purposely went out
6:05
Speaker 1: and found a heavy metal record and got into it.
6:07
Speaker 1: So yeah, but growing up, I think my first album
6:10
Speaker 1: that I bought was Bob Marley Legend, which I still
6:12
Speaker 1: listened to to this day. It's a fantastic record. A
6:16
Speaker 1: Human League Dare, I think was my second record, so
6:19
Speaker 1: it's pretty eclectic.
6:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a classic key we sort of
6:24
Speaker 2: vibe around music at that age is and I mean
6:25
Speaker 2: you discover led Zeppelin all that type of stuff totally.
6:30
Speaker 2: I know that eighties, you know, it was all got
6:32
Speaker 2: a bit glam for a while and you had to
6:35
Speaker 2: sort of look back a bit to find the real metal.
6:38
Speaker 2: I suppose.
6:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think leed Zeppelin was one of those ones
6:41
Speaker 1: that where they metal. It was hard rock, you know,
6:45
Speaker 1: but that it was one of those bands that if
6:47
Speaker 1: you got it, you could go for a deep dive
6:51
Speaker 1: into that band and all the different phases that they had.
6:54
Speaker 1: My favorite houses of the whole because it's got like
6:57
Speaker 1: you know, it's just got every single song on records,
7:00
Speaker 1: great danced.
7:01
Speaker 2: Crunge, no quarter, no quarter anyway. I have to catch
7:07
Speaker 2: myself here and not go too deep and discussing ze Okay,
7:10
Speaker 2: so you're at school, you know what about Korea was?
7:13
Speaker 2: You know, like, was music a career option early on?
7:17
Speaker 1: Originally I was the captain of the Wellington Primary School's
7:22
Speaker 1: cricket team, So so I was being sort of you know,
7:26
Speaker 1: conditioned to think that maybe I had a career in cricket.
7:30
Speaker 2: I agreed that you made representative level.
7:32
Speaker 1: I was the captain of the team and in my
7:35
Speaker 1: team was Mark Ellis, you know, Charlie's Juice Gy and
7:39
Speaker 1: note An All Black and also Danny Himona was my
7:43
Speaker 1: opening bowler and my best mate. And he ended up
7:46
Speaker 1: being another musician called damn Native Guy. But we used
7:51
Speaker 1: to play against. You know, Chris Ken's was the captain
7:53
Speaker 1: of the canty Boys around you. He never got me out.
7:56
Speaker 1: I was scared shitless of a no because he was
7:58
Speaker 1: he was like one of those guys school that was
8:00
Speaker 1: shaving before everybody else. You know. I was like, there's
8:03
Speaker 1: no way that that guy's thirteen, but he was apparently
8:06
Speaker 1: he was frightening.
8:07
Speaker 2: Do you a bowler a batsman?
8:09
Speaker 1: I was an all rounder, so yeah, so I was
8:11
Speaker 1: a good swing bowler and number three batsman. But around
8:15
Speaker 1: that time I met Tom Lark and the drummer of
8:19
Speaker 1: Shee Had and he said he played guitar, because I
8:24
Speaker 1: had had guitar lessons from seven till eleven, and he said,
8:28
Speaker 1: join my band I want to and gave me a
8:30
Speaker 1: copy of a Cdc'shigway to Hell and Metallica's Ride the
8:33
Speaker 1: Lightning and said I want a band. Like this, and
8:35
Speaker 1: I was like, I've never touched an electric guitar. I
8:37
Speaker 1: haven't even been in a room with an electric guitar.
8:40
Speaker 1: And he said it's easy, and so he took me
8:41
Speaker 1: into Wellington. I went to Wellington High School and we'd
8:44
Speaker 1: sort of basically once we discovered the music room with
8:47
Speaker 1: all the band gear, that's where we spent our whole
8:49
Speaker 1: high school. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then my parents were
8:52
Speaker 1: really disappointed at first because they really wanted me to
8:56
Speaker 1: be a black camp. But then once they saw me
9:00
Speaker 1: a music award on Teley next to Coronation Street, they
9:03
Speaker 1: were and they became the biggest supporters of GHAT.
9:06
Speaker 2: But there's a few years in between, right, so so
9:08
Speaker 2: it must have been you know, I guess as parents,
9:10
Speaker 2: they're probably just worried about about the stability of a
9:14
Speaker 2: career in music. It can be a tough road.
9:17
Speaker 1: It is most definitely a tough road. It's not it's
9:20
Speaker 1: not for the slight of heart. You've got to really
9:22
Speaker 1: believe in yourself and you've got to really want to
9:25
Speaker 1: do it.
9:26
Speaker 2: Said, making that leap between going oh this is great fun,
9:29
Speaker 2: I'm in a band, and it's a it's a you
9:31
Speaker 2: know something we're doing for for a laugh and actually
9:33
Speaker 2: going are we going to try and take.
9:35
Speaker 1: This yes and go yeah. Well so luckily I met
9:38
Speaker 1: like minded, ambitious young men at high school that were
9:42
Speaker 1: willing to take that journey with me. And we're just
9:45
Speaker 1: as driven, if not more so, than I was. So
9:48
Speaker 1: I was surrounded by a good team and you need
9:51
Speaker 1: that because it's a team effort. And we always set
9:56
Speaker 1: off sites much further afield than just New Zealand. We
9:59
Speaker 1: were like, how does Metallica sound like it does? How
10:02
Speaker 1: does you know led Zeppelins sound like they do? We
10:05
Speaker 1: were never thinking about just the borders of New Zealand.
10:08
Speaker 1: We're thinking about how does an international how do we
10:10
Speaker 1: sound like an international band? How do we sound that
10:13
Speaker 1: huge sound that we love? And so we just went
10:16
Speaker 1: on a journey to try and find that the answers
10:19
Speaker 1: to those questions, you know, And basically it comes down
10:21
Speaker 1: to putting in the hours and rehearsing and playing shows
10:26
Speaker 1: and never taking no for an answer. Being extremely a
10:29
Speaker 1: career focused.
10:31
Speaker 2: But when you say career, I mean that's absolutely focused
10:34
Speaker 2: on the music, right, But did you think about the
10:36
Speaker 2: business side much in those days? You know, how you
10:38
Speaker 2: could make a living.
10:40
Speaker 1: At first, we knew that it was going to be tough,
10:43
Speaker 1: you know, we knew that we were going to be
10:45
Speaker 1: earning practically less than the doll But that day that
10:49
Speaker 1: we did actually give our jobs away and went, okay,
10:52
Speaker 1: we've got a record deal. In Jimmy, it might might
10:54
Speaker 1: not be the best thing, but it's still a record deal.
10:57
Speaker 1: We were like, we are prepared to eat rubbish and
11:00
Speaker 1: do what we need to do to get to that point.
11:03
Speaker 1: And then it was like, you know, you know, ten
11:06
Speaker 1: years of hard grind, just making enough money to feed
11:11
Speaker 1: ourselves and travel to America, then travel to Europe, then
11:15
Speaker 1: to Australia and just going never taking no for an answer,
11:19
Speaker 1: and then finally publishing companies going yeah, we want what
11:23
Speaker 1: you've got his big advance because.
11:25
Speaker 2: It was still fairly traditional, you know, in those days,
11:28
Speaker 2: it was almost the way it had been for twenty
11:30
Speaker 2: to thirty years in terms of how bands work. Do
11:32
Speaker 2: you look at it now, I mean, how does it
11:33
Speaker 2: compare now? But also when you look at young bands
11:37
Speaker 2: the way that they're looking at Korea now, it's very different, right.
11:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really it's different on so many levels. It's
11:44
Speaker 1: different on the fact even right down to the fundamentals
11:47
Speaker 1: of like having to learn how to play your instrument.
11:51
Speaker 1: Nowadays you've got the resource of YouTube, which has got
11:55
Speaker 1: all the best guitarists in the world. This is how
11:58
Speaker 1: you play this. We did have that resource. We had
12:01
Speaker 1: to hunt down the local guitar tutor who might not
12:03
Speaker 1: be into the music that you like. But that's the
12:05
Speaker 1: only person I could find. So there's a different skill
12:09
Speaker 1: set going on. If someone's keen and passionate, they can
12:12
Speaker 1: become very very good, really young, and you need to
12:15
Speaker 1: be good young to compete basically, And so there's that.
12:21
Speaker 1: Then there's also direct lines of communication between you and
12:24
Speaker 1: your audience, which we didn't have, like the Internet, social media,
12:28
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. I'm not very good with that because
12:31
Speaker 1: I'm not part of that generation. I'm still of the
12:34
Speaker 1: generation that I liked my rock stars to be mysterious,
12:38
Speaker 1: like Prince. You know, I didn't want to know what
12:40
Speaker 1: Prince was eating for dinner. I wanted to I just
12:43
Speaker 1: wanted to be him, you know, like because he was
12:46
Speaker 1: you know, he slept with Apollonia, which was really cool,
12:49
Speaker 1: you know, and I liked that. I like that mystery,
12:52
Speaker 1: and I'm quite a private person. So I'm still I
12:54
Speaker 1: think a little bit like that, which is probably business
12:56
Speaker 1: wise to my detriment.
12:58
Speaker 2: I mean, it feels like young kids, you know, that
12:59
Speaker 2: they're really got a hustle. Now they sell their own
13:02
Speaker 2: T shirts, they've.
13:03
Speaker 1: Bought a brand themselves. Basically, they've got to think of
13:05
Speaker 1: themselves as a brand rather than as a person. And
13:08
Speaker 1: that's people. There's some kids are so good at it.
13:13
Speaker 1: But that's just the world that they're we're in, and
13:16
Speaker 1: and all power to them. But I actually really love
13:19
Speaker 1: going home after playing a show and being private. Yeah,
13:22
Speaker 1: I actually really appreciate that.
13:24
Speaker 2: You know, was there a point when the success started
13:33
Speaker 2: to come with you thought, gee, there is some money here.
13:37
Speaker 2: I need to think about this in a sort of
13:40
Speaker 2: a practical way, you know, that personal finance stuff, in
13:43
Speaker 2: vesting in a house or.
13:44
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I did do that, you know, first big
13:46
Speaker 1: publishing payout we got. I that was used as deposit
13:51
Speaker 1: on a house in Brooklyn and Wellington in my first marriage,
13:55
Speaker 1: and yeah, that got us into the onto the property letter,
13:58
Speaker 1: you know. And it was like after years of renting
14:02
Speaker 1: or sleeping on couches, you know pretty much, you know,
14:05
Speaker 1: And that was from a publishing deal. Yeah, And I mean,
14:09
Speaker 1: I've got to say, it wasn't until I actually got
14:12
Speaker 1: out of that first marriage and had to reassess my
14:16
Speaker 1: whole life that I actually worked out where my income
14:19
Speaker 1: streams were, where I made money what I didn't even
14:23
Speaker 1: know what I was earning. Yeah, it must have been.
14:25
Speaker 2: And you hear there's a lot of bands, it just
14:27
Speaker 2: must be like a will wind for a while minutes
14:30
Speaker 2: all on them because you're not late nineties early Okay.
14:33
Speaker 1: So I was the guy in the band that was
14:36
Speaker 1: the creative right. I was the guy that was writing
14:38
Speaker 1: the words, writing the songs, and you know, behaving like
14:42
Speaker 1: a performing demon on stage, making sure that everyone walked
14:46
Speaker 1: out of that venue going that was the best rock
14:49
Speaker 1: and roll band I've seen. That was my That was
14:51
Speaker 1: the eyes on the prize. I wasn't even looking at
14:54
Speaker 1: my bank account, you know. I was just going, as
14:56
Speaker 1: long as people want to see us, I'm happy. And
14:59
Speaker 1: it wasn't util I grew up and went, right, I've
15:02
Speaker 1: actually got to pay I've got to pay for things here.
15:05
Speaker 1: And then actually having my own children kids really focuses you.
15:10
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, cool. Luckily I've by that point I'd
15:15
Speaker 1: made enough of a sort of I had enough of
15:16
Speaker 1: a profile to be able to actually say yes to
15:19
Speaker 1: things that I found to be I was passionate about,
15:23
Speaker 1: you know, and I'd never got into a situation I
15:25
Speaker 1: think where I was going, Well, I'm going to do this,
15:28
Speaker 1: even though I find it echy, because I just need
15:31
Speaker 1: to pay the rent, you know, like I've always luckily
15:34
Speaker 1: gone what okay? Cool? Silo Theater. Want me to do
15:37
Speaker 1: a Browll theater show. Keen Hodaki want me to do
15:42
Speaker 1: a radio show where I just play what I was
15:45
Speaker 1: brought up on. Great. I'm playing a solo show where
15:49
Speaker 1: I'm playing in front of one hundred and fifty people,
15:51
Speaker 1: but it's really intimate. But it's also a real thrill
15:55
Speaker 1: to me to do Great. Next day I'm playing She
15:58
Speaker 1: Had with ten thousand people in front of me. I'm
16:01
Speaker 1: very fortunate to have this life and actually be paid
16:05
Speaker 1: to do it because I'm pretty much doing all these
16:07
Speaker 1: things that I do free.
16:09
Speaker 2: In a weird way, it's that, you know, it's making
16:12
Speaker 2: that passion your job. Yes, yeah, I mean how much?
16:16
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess you know, it's a question I asked,
16:19
Speaker 2: I'll ask it, but and it's pretty probably pretty obvious
16:21
Speaker 2: with an artist or you know, but how much is
16:23
Speaker 2: money ever a driver your output and what you do.
16:27
Speaker 1: It's not, it's not a driver. I think it's it's
16:31
Speaker 1: about learning how to value yourself. It's really important to
16:34
Speaker 1: value yourself properly, you know, Like I think I used
16:37
Speaker 1: to be such a people pleaser when I was younger.
16:39
Speaker 1: It was like I'd undervalue myself. You know, someone wanted
16:42
Speaker 1: me to do something, I'd be like, oh, I don't
16:44
Speaker 1: want to offend them, so I'll just I'll short change myself.
16:49
Speaker 1: Then it was like I met my wife. She's like,
16:51
Speaker 1: what the hell, man, you're Johnny fucking too good. You
16:54
Speaker 1: should be asking for this. And it was like, okay,
16:56
Speaker 1: I'll ask for it. And then it was like yes,
16:58
Speaker 1: sweet airs, okay, cool, let's go, you know. And then
17:00
Speaker 1: I realized, okay, right, You've got a value what you do,
17:03
Speaker 1: and then when you turn up to do it, you
17:05
Speaker 1: nail the shit out of it, you know. You I
17:08
Speaker 1: never do anything half fast, whether it's doing voiceovers for ads,
17:11
Speaker 1: whether it's doing anything, I'm always one hundred percent on
17:15
Speaker 1: and giving it my best shot. That's it.
17:17
Speaker 2: I mean, other jobs, you know, I guess you can
17:19
Speaker 2: structure a career once you're a certain level where you
17:21
Speaker 2: can do jobs at a commercial and you just do
17:23
Speaker 2: it because it's going to fund doing something that's completely noncommercial.
17:27
Speaker 1: Sure, but even say doing voiceovers, I'm only doing voiceovers
17:30
Speaker 1: for ads for things that I actually have trying to.
17:32
Speaker 2: Think of what I've what I've heard you and I
17:34
Speaker 2: can't remember.
17:36
Speaker 1: But you know, like, I mean, honestly, like I am
17:38
Speaker 1: in a very privileged position of saying being able to
17:41
Speaker 1: say no to things that I don't feel and saying
17:44
Speaker 1: yes to things that I do, you know, And I
17:47
Speaker 1: know that that's not the case for everybody. And I
17:49
Speaker 1: and I'm thankful every day I wake up.
17:52
Speaker 2: And also I guess, I mean, I guess I need
17:54
Speaker 2: to ask. She had still a loose concept. You can
17:57
Speaker 2: see she had come back and have another two.
18:00
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it's like we've all got our own things.
18:02
Speaker 1: So Tom not at all. Tom Tomking the drummer, you know,
18:07
Speaker 1: founding member with me. He manages other bands. He was
18:10
Speaker 1: always passionate about the business. That was something that I
18:14
Speaker 1: was so glad I had him around me because he
18:18
Speaker 1: actually thrilled at the business, whereas I found it a
18:21
Speaker 1: little bit as a sensitive sort of creative I need
18:25
Speaker 1: to be protected from it a little bit. I'm a
18:27
Speaker 1: bit better now. I can actually I can interface with
18:30
Speaker 1: the business world a lot easier than when I was younger.
18:34
Speaker 1: But but having that, you know, passionate guy that was
18:37
Speaker 1: passionate about that side of things around me, it was
18:40
Speaker 1: a godsend, you know, and so he's made a living
18:42
Speaker 1: out of that. But we all you know, I think
18:46
Speaker 1: Phil is he the guitarist, he does he tour managers
18:52
Speaker 1: bands because he loves touring, and he knows all the
18:56
Speaker 1: absolutely and but when we come together, we still nail it,
19:00
Speaker 1: you know, we nail it. And we know that we've
19:03
Speaker 1: got a name of being a great live act, and
19:06
Speaker 1: so we can never you know, disappoint people and not
19:08
Speaker 1: disappoint ourselves, you know, so we always take it very
19:11
Speaker 1: seriously when we're together.
19:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm jumping around to it here. But
19:14
Speaker 2: one of the things I wanted to ask is, you know,
19:16
Speaker 2: you were very metal at the start, right, and then
19:18
Speaker 2: of course it evolves and changes, and it's sort of
19:21
Speaker 2: sometimes some ways. That's a bit of an analogy for
19:24
Speaker 2: how life can be, especially if you're from a sort
19:26
Speaker 2: of working class background. I'm sort of similar sort of boat.
19:29
Speaker 2: Was there a point at which you remember just going,
19:32
Speaker 2: I'm gonna not be constrained by that, you know, like
19:35
Speaker 2: there's there's sometimes it can be a little bit suffocating.
19:38
Speaker 1: If yeah, without a doubt, I mean, I think SHEE
19:40
Speaker 1: Hard wouldn't be a thing if we just made the
19:43
Speaker 1: same record over and over again.
19:44
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of people who'd like to see
19:46
Speaker 2: how you make kills your.
19:47
Speaker 1: As absolutely and you know what it's like if we
19:50
Speaker 1: if we stuck to that, we would have got bored.
19:54
Speaker 1: Our shows would have it would have been law of
19:55
Speaker 1: diminishing returns. We wouldn't have been passionate about it. We
19:58
Speaker 1: needed to push ourselves. I think artists, and I should
20:02
Speaker 1: imagine people who've creative in the business industry need to
20:05
Speaker 1: push themselves and step out of their comfort zone so
20:09
Speaker 1: they can even get bigger than what they were. You know,
20:12
Speaker 1: it's so important to keep pushing yourself otherwise you become
20:17
Speaker 1: complacent and you start phoning it in. As soon as
20:21
Speaker 1: you start phoning in art or rock and roll, people
20:24
Speaker 1: can feel it. You can feel it. I've got to
20:27
Speaker 1: feel it, you know, Like, so how do I feel it?
20:29
Speaker 1: By taking a path that I've never walked down before.
20:33
Speaker 1: And you know Fish album. Yes, we went from selling
20:36
Speaker 1: two nights out at the Auckland Town Hall to down
20:39
Speaker 1: to half of Auckland Town Hall in the space of
20:43
Speaker 1: release a bad album. But now what twenty years later,
20:46
Speaker 1: the first song on that record is a New Zealand
20:49
Speaker 1: rock standard home Again.
20:50
Speaker 2: You know, it kind of defines how we remember day
20:53
Speaker 2: I stood out to.
20:53
Speaker 1: Deal it lately. But at the time our fans were
20:56
Speaker 1: really unhappy with us doing that. Yeah, it was too
20:59
Speaker 1: poppy for this tipop, but we needed to do that
21:02
Speaker 1: because that's what we were feeling in our hearts. That's
21:05
Speaker 1: the song we wanted to write.
21:06
Speaker 2: In hindsight, when you look back, it was still pretty solid.
21:08
Speaker 1: Rock rock and roll, yeah, But at the time, after
21:10
Speaker 1: going coming from Kiljoy, people were like, what is this pop? Yeah,
21:14
Speaker 1: I'm not into this, you know, like and it took us,
21:17
Speaker 1: you know, two years to get back onto you know,
21:20
Speaker 1: doing the numbers that we were doing before and then
21:24
Speaker 1: but it broadened and it changed, you know, all of
21:27
Speaker 1: a sudden. It went from a sort of ninety ninety
21:31
Speaker 1: sort of ten split between mostly boys and girls to
21:34
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty almost because we changed and all of
21:38
Speaker 1: a sudden, the boys started behaving better, less fine, the
21:41
Speaker 1: kids better to look at, and it was great. I
21:44
Speaker 1: loved her, you know, do you remember.
21:45
Speaker 2: I mean around that time of that she had and
21:48
Speaker 2: the Fish album that blew up, right, and suddenly you're
21:51
Speaker 2: dealing with fame in a pretty small place. It did
21:54
Speaker 2: it change things for you? I mean, and it's weird
21:57
Speaker 2: as your fame without wealth often means that you're sort.
22:00
Speaker 1: Of Yeah, I think I think people people sort of
22:03
Speaker 1: take for you know, they forget, yes, okay, Johnny's a
22:06
Speaker 1: rock star, but he's a New Zealand rock star. It's
22:08
Speaker 1: it's a scale thing, you know, like.
22:10
Speaker 2: It was still going to.
22:12
Speaker 1: I Amn, okay money, you know, like I am not
22:15
Speaker 1: complaining at all, but it's not like being being golden
22:19
Speaker 1: or platinum in New Zealand. It's not like selling platinum
22:22
Speaker 1: in America or Germany or stuff like that. So so
22:25
Speaker 1: there's got to be some reality to this, to that.
22:28
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, my job satisfaction is extremely high
22:31
Speaker 1: and we're doing great, you know, like, so I've got
22:34
Speaker 1: no complaints at all. You know, I find the fame
22:36
Speaker 1: thing a little bit weird still, But at the same time,
22:40
Speaker 1: if someone comes up to me and says, hey, man,
22:43
Speaker 1: I saw you when I was at Union Hamilton and
22:46
Speaker 1: that show just blew my mind. It was like, well,
22:48
Speaker 1: I always give people the time of day because it's like,
22:50
Speaker 1: that's great, what a great thing, what a great thing
22:53
Speaker 1: that happened.
22:54
Speaker 2: I mean, well, it's a weird position you're in. I
22:56
Speaker 2: get it a little bit with older white men who
22:59
Speaker 2: reason business. But for you, this is why I'm nervous
23:03
Speaker 2: intering you where I wouldn't be, whether a Reserve bank
23:04
Speaker 2: governor or something. It's because because you it feels like
23:08
Speaker 2: I feel like I sort of know you because your
23:09
Speaker 2: voice saw you know, and you said some of those lines.
23:13
Speaker 2: You know, it's not the it's not the clocks back
23:15
Speaker 2: for winter. It's the day of tiny try sticks in my.
23:19
Speaker 1: Hair like that line. And I'm pretty pretty proud of
23:21
Speaker 1: that one. Yeah, I don't know, it's it's yeah, I'm
23:25
Speaker 1: always the thing is for me. I always go at
23:27
Speaker 1: it like I just happen to have a job that
23:30
Speaker 1: I love. But all it is is just a job
23:32
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, and it's a really
23:34
Speaker 1: great job that I love and I'm very fortunate, but
23:36
Speaker 1: it's no more important than the guy that drives the
23:39
Speaker 1: bus that gets me to the gig. It's just the same.
23:42
Speaker 1: I was brought up by working class parents, so I've
23:45
Speaker 1: always I always bat for the underdog, you know, like
23:47
Speaker 1: and so I. And also because we were the same
23:51
Speaker 1: four guys from when we're seventeen years at school. We've
23:54
Speaker 1: seen each other's worst haircuts, We've seen each other's worst clothes,
23:57
Speaker 1: fashion choices. So there's no we can't. Don't fool each
24:00
Speaker 1: other about. We're bigger than what we actually are. We
24:03
Speaker 1: are who we are. Everyone's egos are kept in check.
24:07
Speaker 1: And also we're Kiwis, so our egos are naturally kicked
24:10
Speaker 1: in checks because we're Kiwi's. You know, it's not cool
24:14
Speaker 1: to be a rock star, you know, like, well, it's
24:17
Speaker 1: not cool to flaunt.
24:18
Speaker 2: It's quite a balancing act.
24:21
Speaker 1: It's got to be the humble man. And I'm good
24:23
Speaker 1: with that, you know, Like it's it's like I said,
24:25
Speaker 1: it's it's a cool job, but it's no more important
24:27
Speaker 1: than any other job, you know.
24:28
Speaker 2: Sure a bit of crack into some of our our
24:37
Speaker 2: quip fire money sure questions. So one of them is,
24:41
Speaker 2: what's the poorest you've ever been.
24:43
Speaker 1: I'd say borrowing money off the support Act when We're
24:48
Speaker 1: in New York on a bus and going I need
24:52
Speaker 1: to borrow two bucks just so that I can eat
24:54
Speaker 1: a piece of pizza and borrowing money off off the support.
24:58
Speaker 2: So what era would that have been?
24:59
Speaker 1: Wou and kill Joy?
25:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, so really just really getting up there.
25:03
Speaker 1: You're just like playing in front of nobody in Southern
25:07
Speaker 1: States of America and then in New York and but
25:10
Speaker 1: just just living it, you know, just having to do it. Yeah.
25:13
Speaker 2: And then when you finally got some money together, what
25:15
Speaker 2: would be one of the most indulgent purchases you've ever made?
25:18
Speaker 2: Or or where do you like to We would.
25:20
Speaker 1: Just I think buying a house in Thomachi, Makoto nowadays
25:24
Speaker 1: is pretty indulgent. And we've managed to do that. So
25:29
Speaker 1: I'm really proud. We saved hard for fifteen years to
25:32
Speaker 1: do that, and I'm really proud of me and my
25:35
Speaker 1: wife because it's not easy, and I absolutely feel for
25:39
Speaker 1: anybody who's doing it tough, you know, and because we're
25:44
Speaker 1: not leaving it living in very easy times financially.
25:46
Speaker 2: Sure, do you do you buy a lotto tickets? And
25:50
Speaker 2: do you still imagine winning lotto and if so, you know,
25:52
Speaker 2: how much do you imagine winning?
25:54
Speaker 1: Well, part of my story is that I converted to
25:56
Speaker 1: Islam so we can't gamble, and so I sort of,
26:00
Speaker 1: you know, when whenever we need to, you know, me
26:03
Speaker 1: and the family need some money, we sort of have
26:04
Speaker 1: a joke about, oh when we win the halal lot
26:06
Speaker 1: oflling it, But it's like we don't. We don't gamble.
26:11
Speaker 1: I never gambled though, I mean, I think apart from
26:13
Speaker 1: if we ever went to Vegas, I'd give myself two
26:16
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty bucks a second of blackjack table and
26:19
Speaker 1: I wouldn't I set a rule. If I lose that money,
26:23
Speaker 1: I'm out. You know, I never lost. I always walked
26:26
Speaker 1: out up, you know. But yeah, I don't know. I
26:30
Speaker 1: think it was from being a struggling artist for so
26:32
Speaker 1: many years that whatever money I held had I held
26:36
Speaker 1: on tight to. But then meeting my wife, who is
26:41
Speaker 1: the daughter of a UN diplomat. He's actually head economists,
26:45
Speaker 1: he was a head economist at the Islamic Bank of
26:47
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia.
26:47
Speaker 2: When her so she knows how to organize the money.
26:51
Speaker 1: No she doesn't. Oh, well no not at all, because
26:54
Speaker 1: he did pretty much everything for everybody. Yeah, and so
26:58
Speaker 1: we've had to learn together and and you know what,
27:01
Speaker 1: I think we're doing a great job considering neither of
27:03
Speaker 1: us sort of were from that world, even though her
27:06
Speaker 1: dad was. But he's now the advisor to the Kuwaiti
27:10
Speaker 1: agricultur Cultural Ministry trying to divest from fossil fuels at
27:14
Speaker 1: the moment, So that's his job. That's a big job.
27:18
Speaker 1: So yeah, so it's pretty interesting marrying into that family
27:21
Speaker 1: because yeah, I think I was a bit of an
27:23
Speaker 1: outside context problem when when my when my wife turned
27:26
Speaker 1: up with a rock and roll star from New Zealand.
27:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's quite a shift. Does the Islamic thing?
27:32
Speaker 2: Does it change the way you look at money?
27:34
Speaker 1: Absolutely, because we think of money as everything's a gift
27:38
Speaker 1: from a loah, everything's a gift from the universe, if
27:41
Speaker 1: you want to put it that way. And when you die,
27:44
Speaker 1: you're going to be asked, what did you do what
27:47
Speaker 1: I gave What did you do with what I gave you?
27:49
Speaker 1: So the idea is to pass that money on. When
27:52
Speaker 1: I first met Dana, I was a staunch humanist atheist
27:56
Speaker 1: that was like I was. I was like, talked a
27:59
Speaker 1: good game about being generous, being kind. But because I
28:01
Speaker 1: was a struggling artist, I held on tightly to any
28:03
Speaker 1: money I ever got because I didn't have any faith
28:06
Speaker 1: that I would ever get paid again, because I didn't
28:08
Speaker 1: know if I would. But she would literally give her
28:11
Speaker 1: last ten dollars to the person on the street who
28:13
Speaker 1: needed it because it wasn't hers anyway, and she was
28:16
Speaker 1: going to be asked that question when she dies. Wow.
28:18
Speaker 1: So it's and you know what, without fail by the
28:21
Speaker 1: end of the day she was getting comped inn or
28:23
Speaker 1: at some restaurant or some one to give it back.
28:27
Speaker 1: It just comes back, and it's just going with the
28:29
Speaker 1: flow of the universe. You know. Yeah, that's my attitude
28:32
Speaker 1: towards money. It's like you give to people that are
28:34
Speaker 1: in need. And also if you look at people rather
28:37
Speaker 1: than in the West, where we're taught to look at
28:39
Speaker 1: people who have more than us and always be on
28:42
Speaker 1: the search for better car, better house, better neighborhood, better school,
28:46
Speaker 1: you always got to be miserable. If you look the
28:48
Speaker 1: other way and go, who is who needs something here?
28:51
Speaker 1: Who is less than me? And you help them out,
28:53
Speaker 1: you sleep like a baby because they're manifestations of us. Anyway,
28:57
Speaker 1: you know, So that's how I look at it.
28:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely brilliant and a really interesting transformation for a
29:02
Speaker 2: kid from for sure.
29:04
Speaker 1: For sure.
29:05
Speaker 2: A bit of a lighter question, I guess. But because
29:07
Speaker 2: it's money talks, I always like, especially you know anyone
29:10
Speaker 2: musical do you have a favorite song about money? So
29:13
Speaker 2: a song with the money lyric.
29:15
Speaker 1: It's money for Nothing, mate.
29:17
Speaker 2: I always saying that's great until he starts singing the
29:20
Speaker 2: riff's amazings are awesome.
29:21
Speaker 1: No. I actually had to do it and the come
29:23
Speaker 1: together di Strates, and I was like, do you really
29:26
Speaker 1: have to give me that gig and that song because
29:28
Speaker 1: I like Diastrates? But well, my favorite tunnel of love
29:32
Speaker 1: in Romeo and Juliet. But but then getting inside it
29:36
Speaker 1: and actually performing it live, it's a pretty rock and tune. Yeah,
29:41
Speaker 1: there's a there's a live version from nearby Worth with
29:45
Speaker 1: Eric Clapton playing the other guitar, and it's.
29:47
Speaker 2: Pretty cock It's amazing and and actually kind of interesting lyrics.
29:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, cool.
29:52
Speaker 2: We better wrap this up shortly because I know you've
29:55
Speaker 2: got to get downstairs and play some songs. But a
29:58
Speaker 2: big one we ask is as if you we were
30:00
Speaker 2: Prime Minister of the day if we could magically make
30:02
Speaker 2: you Prime Minister for the Shay Is there something you
30:04
Speaker 2: would like most like to change in New Zealand to
30:07
Speaker 2: try and I guess deal with social inequality or deal
30:11
Speaker 2: with some of the big issues out there. It's a
30:13
Speaker 2: huge question.
30:14
Speaker 1: I know it's a it's a big question. I think
30:19
Speaker 1: our society undervalues teachers, it undervalues people in service industry,
30:24
Speaker 1: it undervalues people who work in hospitals and health I
30:29
Speaker 1: would try and even up what they get paid. I
30:32
Speaker 1: think we on a whole, we tend to financially, we
30:38
Speaker 1: tend to reward ruthlessness rather than a charity and generosity.
30:43
Speaker 1: So I would turn that on its head. What are
30:47
Speaker 1: the policies that make that happen? Who knows. I've had
30:50
Speaker 1: conversations where people go, oh, you should be into politics.
30:52
Speaker 1: It's like, no, man, what's great about being an artist
30:55
Speaker 1: is you get to sit outside and you and you're
30:58
Speaker 1: not you know, I can say things without having to.
31:00
Speaker 1: Is this going to piss off someone from my team?
31:02
Speaker 1: You know? And I do understand you need to be
31:04
Speaker 1: a team when you're working in party politics. But I
31:07
Speaker 1: think I like the freedom afforded me by being an
31:11
Speaker 1: artist because our plays a role in culture and society
31:15
Speaker 1: because we get to sort of sit outside and go
31:17
Speaker 1: Actually that's not fair and that's not right, you know so,
31:20
Speaker 1: but we don't have to have the argument with you know.
31:23
Speaker 1: So it's an interesting thing. What would I change? Yeah,
31:26
Speaker 1: I think yeah, valuing, valuing our teachers and our people
31:30
Speaker 1: in health. I think that would be good. First up,
31:34
Speaker 1: making sure that we honor the Treaty of w Tongue
31:36
Speaker 1: as well, because it is a joint thing. It's it's
31:39
Speaker 1: for it's not just for Maori, it's for Puckyhart as well.
31:42
Speaker 1: I think that would be great. And being really honest
31:45
Speaker 1: about our history. That would be very important to me.
31:48
Speaker 1: Yeah sure.
31:49
Speaker 2: Now hey, look that's brilliant, John. I know we're go
31:51
Speaker 2: to let you go. Can I just just just firstly,
31:53
Speaker 2: good well, lastly, good luck with this tour and the
31:56
Speaker 2: and the album. Right, so, Last of the Lonely Gods
32:00
Speaker 2: early October October eleventh, October eleventh, is that when the
32:03
Speaker 2: album comes out.
32:04
Speaker 1: It's when the album comes out now, when you hit
32:06
Speaker 1: the road. Yeah much. Yeah, it's the best record I
32:09
Speaker 1: think I've made for ages. So it's good.
32:11
Speaker 2: Well, that is great, Thanks for being here and good
32:14
Speaker 2: luck with it all. Cheers, John, Thank you thanks for
32:16
Speaker 2: listening to this episode of Money Talks. If you want
32:19
Speaker 2: to get in touch, drop me a line at Liam
32:22
Speaker 2: dot Dan at inzme dot co dot nz and you
32:26
Speaker 2: can read more from me at inzidherld dot co dot nz.
32:30
Speaker 2: Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound engineer Liam McDonald.
32:35
Speaker 2: Follow Money Talks on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
32:39
Speaker 2: with new episodes available every Thursday,