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The Women of Wildland Firefighting · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey and Samantha rock stuff. I've never told you productive
0:08
Speaker 1: I heard radio.
0:18
Speaker 2: And we're talking about something that kind of had already
0:22
Speaker 2: been head on. So past hosts Kristen and Caroline did
0:25
Speaker 2: a great episode in two thousand and nine on women
0:28
Speaker 2: in firefighting, but we thought we would take some time
0:31
Speaker 2: to talk about the women within the wild land firefighting community,
0:35
Speaker 2: a very specific group of people. It is a specific
0:38
Speaker 2: field that has become a huge need unfortunately, especially as
0:42
Speaker 2: of late. Content warning straight up, obviously we're going to
0:45
Speaker 2: talk about fires, land damage, all of that. There's mention
0:49
Speaker 2: of suicide, mention of mental health issues as well as
0:52
Speaker 2: sexual harassment. So go ahead, and we're not getting too
0:55
Speaker 2: much into it. We're just getting into some statistics as
0:58
Speaker 2: we always do. So there's a lot happening around the world,
1:02
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, some of these things are disasters that are
1:05
Speaker 2: destroying lands, property and the environment overall. So, like I said,
1:10
Speaker 2: Chiggorandi about all these incidents, but we also mentioned fire
1:13
Speaker 2: and arson death and natural disasters. So with that, the
1:17
Speaker 2: wildland fire fighting field has been around for quite some
1:20
Speaker 2: time now, like most of history around the world, even
1:25
Speaker 2: with its existence, it took way way longer for women
1:29
Speaker 2: to be even a part of this field at all.
1:33
Speaker 2: But before we get into all of that, we're going
1:35
Speaker 2: to look at statistics and facts around wildland fires in general.
1:40
Speaker 1: Again it's a lot, yeah, So let's start with the
1:43
Speaker 1: definition from our World and Data dot org quote. A
1:47
Speaker 1: wildfire is an uncontrolled burn of vegetation, which includes the
1:50
Speaker 1: burning of forest, shrublands and grasslands, savannahs and croplands. Wildfires
1:55
Speaker 1: can be caused by human activity such as arson, unattended fires,
1:59
Speaker 1: or the lost control of planned burns, and natural causes
2:03
Speaker 1: such as lightning. The amount of wildfires in recent years
2:06
Speaker 1: have substantially increased, according to the twenty twenty three World
2:10
Speaker 1: Resources Institute quote. The latest data on forest fires confirms
2:14
Speaker 1: what we've long feared. Forest fires are becoming more widespread,
2:18
Speaker 1: burning nearly twice as much tree copper today as they
2:20
Speaker 1: did twenty years ago. Using data from a recent study
2:23
Speaker 1: by researchers at the University of Maryland, we calculated that
2:27
Speaker 1: forest fires now result in three million more hectors of
2:31
Speaker 1: tree cover loss per year compared to two thousand and one,
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Speaker 1: an area roughly the size of Belgium and accounted for
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Speaker 1: more than one quarter of all tree cover loss over
2:41
Speaker 1: the past twenty years.
2:42
Speaker 2: And an article continues, twenty twenty one was one of
2:45
Speaker 2: the worst years for forest fires since the turn of
2:47
Speaker 2: the century, causing an alarming nine point three million hectares
2:51
Speaker 2: of tree cover loss globally, over one third of all
2:54
Speaker 2: tree cover loss that occurred that year, though down from
2:57
Speaker 2: the previous year. Over six point six million hectors of
3:00
Speaker 2: tree cover was lost to force fires in twenty twenty two,
3:03
Speaker 2: similar to other years over the past decades, and in
3:05
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, the world has already seen heightened fire activity,
3:09
Speaker 2: including record breaking burns across Canada and catastrophic fires in Hawaii,
3:14
Speaker 2: which we all remember so. In fact, in a recent
3:17
Speaker 2: article written by reporter Claire Moses for The New York Times,
3:21
Speaker 2: at least four point five million acres have been burned
3:24
Speaker 2: in North America this year already. Here's a quote from
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Speaker 2: her article. So far this year, over twenty eight thousand
3:32
Speaker 2: wildfires have burned more than four point five million acres
3:35
Speaker 2: in the United States, according to the National Interagency Fire Center,
3:38
Speaker 2: US fire activity for twenty twenty four is above the
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Speaker 2: average for the last decade, agency data shows, and the
3:44
Speaker 2: resulting destruction has already mounted to more than that burned
3:47
Speaker 2: in all of twenty twenty three, and with the expected
3:50
Speaker 2: peak of this year's fire season still at least a
3:52
Speaker 2: month or more away. Experts say that fires are burning
3:55
Speaker 2: with a level of intensity rarely seen at this point
3:58
Speaker 2: in the summer, and yet this article was written in August. Y'all.
4:02
Speaker 1: Typically wildfire season begins in June or July and continues
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Speaker 1: on into mid fall, but some are saying that timeline
4:09
Speaker 1: will extend, in part due to climate change. The article continues, saying,
4:14
Speaker 1: quote experts have grown concerned about the sheer number of
4:17
Speaker 1: fires burning in Western states this early in the season.
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Speaker 1: As of Saturday, there were eighty nine large active fires
4:24
Speaker 1: according to the NIFC, most of them in the Pacific
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Speaker 1: Northwest in California.
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Speaker 2: The calls of wildfires vary greatly, but some of the
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Speaker 2: causes are as follows according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs,
4:35
Speaker 2: including lightning, burning off and outcrop or underground coal seam,
4:39
Speaker 2: campfire or bonfire smoking like cigarettes and matches, fire use
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Speaker 2: such as debris burning or burning of ditches and fields,
4:47
Speaker 2: arson or illegal burning equipment such as vehicles and aircrafts, railroads.
4:53
Speaker 2: Apparently part of that as well kids or miners playing
4:56
Speaker 2: with fire or fireworks and others and others are like
4:59
Speaker 2: It can comput covers so many including birth announcements or
5:04
Speaker 2: gender reveals as we remember.
5:08
Speaker 1: Of course, as we said earlier, the current state of
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Speaker 1: climate change has made the wildfire situation much more severe
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Speaker 1: and concerning. Here's some information from the Environmental Defense Fund
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Speaker 1: quote climate change can make environments more susceptible to burning.
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Speaker 1: Increasing severe heat and drought due to climate change can
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Speaker 1: fuel wildfires. Hotter temperatures evaporate more moisture from soil and vegetation,
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Speaker 1: drying out trees, shrubs, and grasses, and turning leaf litter
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Speaker 1: and fallen branches into kindling. In times of drought, trees
5:36
Speaker 1: that are stressed by a lack of water may also
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Speaker 1: become more vulnerable to insects and diseases that can weaken
5:42
Speaker 1: or kill them, creating more fuel for fires. And in
5:46
Speaker 1: the western US, snowpacks are shrinking and melting earlier in
5:50
Speaker 1: the year, which makes forest more flammable by reducing the
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Speaker 1: water available for vegetation. Fire is a natural phenomenon that
5:57
Speaker 1: serves important ecological purposes. Dead and disease plants from some
6:01
Speaker 1: forest for example, and even helping some plants reproduce. But
6:06
Speaker 1: a rapidly warming planet, along with the history of short
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Speaker 1: sighted forest management practices and land use decisions that push
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Speaker 1: development into the wilderness, is contributing to more destructive wildfires.
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Speaker 2: Right and some more information from the World Resource Institute
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Speaker 2: quote climate change is one of the major drivers of
6:23
Speaker 2: increasing fire activities. Extreme heat waves are already five times
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Speaker 2: more likely today than they were one hundred and fifty
6:29
Speaker 2: years ago, and are expected to become even more frequent
6:32
Speaker 2: as a planet continues to warm. Horder temperatures dry out
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Speaker 2: the landscape and help create the perfect environment for large,
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Speaker 2: more frequent forest fires. This in turn leads to higher
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Speaker 2: emissions from forest fires, further exacerbating climate change and contributing
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Speaker 2: to more fires as part of a fire climate feedback loop. Yeah,
6:51
Speaker 2: so in this we were having this hile conversation about
6:54
Speaker 2: the fact that this is a whole cycle that's causing
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Speaker 2: more and more chaos. We've talked about this before about
7:01
Speaker 2: the cause and effects of some things, and force fires
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Speaker 2: is right in the middle of that. So there's different
7:07
Speaker 2: research of methods for trying to bring a solution to
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Speaker 2: the problem of the increased wildfires, and much of that
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Speaker 2: is being done through actual wildland firefighters. Yes.
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Speaker 1: For some context, Here are some of the differences between
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Speaker 1: wildland firefighters versus structural firefighters from palaschianews dot com. The
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Speaker 1: training and education of each are different. Quote. The first
7:29
Speaker 1: notable difference between structure and wildland firefighting is their disparate
7:32
Speaker 1: training and education methods. While both groups must receive extensive training,
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Speaker 1: the biggest differences in the techniques required to deal with
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Speaker 1: hazardous fires and their requirements are worlds apart. For example,
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Speaker 1: a wildland firefighter must have a post secondary education, past
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Speaker 1: various written and physical test, have a red card certification
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Speaker 1: that allows them to perform duties as a wildland firefighter,
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Speaker 1: and have experience working in rough terrain. On the other hand,
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Speaker 1: structural firefighters must go through various written and physical tests,
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Speaker 1: pass several interviews, and have Emergency Medical Technician AMT certification.
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Speaker 2: Right. So, equipment and a PPE are also different. For
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Speaker 2: wildland firefighters, items like line gear, chainsaws, campus and GPS
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Speaker 2: are a must, while items like self containing breeding apparatus,
8:24
Speaker 2: scuba and access are used for structural firefighters. So when
8:28
Speaker 2: we talk about structural firefighters, we're talking about, you know, firefighters.
8:31
Speaker 2: That's what we regularly think the ones on the calendar,
8:34
Speaker 2: Just kidding. It's also noted that being on duty for
8:38
Speaker 2: structural firefighters is all year long, while for most wildlin
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Speaker 2: firefighters it is seasonal, as well as the fact that
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Speaker 2: containing a wildfire versus a structural fire uses very different methods,
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Speaker 2: such as wildlind fire fighters having to create quote, fire
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Speaker 2: lines by cutting down trees and digging up grass in
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Speaker 2: the path of the fire to stop it from spreading.
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Speaker 2: Stuff like that. And also we're going to talk about
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Speaker 2: some of the specialized units within wildland firefighters which make
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Speaker 2: them different as well. Okay, now we got that down,
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Speaker 2: Let's talk about the history of wildland firefighters for just
9:09
Speaker 2: a minute. Bear with us. It was in eighteen eighty
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Speaker 2: five that the wildland fire Control program was initiated, and
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Speaker 2: throughout history there had been a long conversation of fire
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Speaker 2: suppression versus fire control. When we mentioned earlier, how that
9:23
Speaker 2: debate really may have cost how we handled and how
9:28
Speaker 2: the environment had made more problems because we didn't handle
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Speaker 2: it so well. This is a part of this conversation
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Speaker 2: though suppression versus control. So initially it was thought that
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Speaker 2: complete fire suppression was the answer. In fact, there was
9:40
Speaker 2: a debate again within the community about whether or not
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Speaker 2: complete suppression was the only answer and that control fire
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Speaker 2: could be of benefit. But after the nineteen ten fire,
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Speaker 2: which burned millions of acres and killed at least ninety people,
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Speaker 2: with a majority of them being firefighters, many of them
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Speaker 2: moved to complete suppression. It was in nineteen ten that
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Speaker 2: they passed the largest budget to quote institutionalize and professionalized
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Speaker 2: fire suppression. And this is according to the National Interagency
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Speaker 2: Fire Center or THEFC, and it wouldn't be until the
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Speaker 2: seventies they would change it from fire control suppression to
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Speaker 2: fire management due to allowing for more flexible process of
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Speaker 2: quote appropriate suppression actions, which could have quote range from
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Speaker 2: fully suppressing a fire to confining a fire within a
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Speaker 2: certain area under predetermined conditions. As they figured out the
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Speaker 2: complete exclusion could be hindering the ecosystem's natural process of regeneration.
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Speaker 2: So it's kind of the debate of like, it's not
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Speaker 2: all bad, even though it seems very scary. Okay, yes
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Speaker 2: we did. Now with all of that, let's talk about
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Speaker 2: the women. When did the women start being a part
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Speaker 2: of this conversation? Well, the first ever noted women to
10:53
Speaker 2: be part of the wildland fire crew were actually just
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Speaker 2: known as Missus Durham and her friend Missus clopp and right, so,
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Speaker 2: Missus Durham was the wife of one of the rangers
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Speaker 2: of the California National Forest and because of the war
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Speaker 2: during that time, since there were not enough men in
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Speaker 2: the fire crews and they had so many wildfires at
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Speaker 2: the time, many of the crews enlisted and trained wives
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Speaker 2: for service rangers to help. And yeah, we researched a
11:21
Speaker 2: bit more. I try to get more information. I was like, Oh,
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Speaker 2: who is this person, what she's about? What was her
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Speaker 2: first name? Couldn't find a damn thing, Like, there was
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Speaker 2: nothing other than their married names, and a pretty much
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Speaker 2: a salute thank you for helping out. I think that
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Speaker 2: was pretty much like the nineteen tens, like in war efforts,
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Speaker 2: when women were like thanks for your help, go back home,
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Speaker 2: right essentially. But I also want to note because it
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Speaker 2: was really interesting trying to get all this information about
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Speaker 2: historical first we've talked about this with Eaves and so
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Speaker 2: many other episodes. It wasn't all aligning, and some of
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Speaker 2: the first were much later, and there probably were other
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Speaker 2: women that we just don't know about or haven't been credited.
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Speaker 2: I don't know, because there was a first all women
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Speaker 2: crew that was noted to have started in the early
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Speaker 2: nineteen forties. But that's it. Like I couldn't find who
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Speaker 2: they were, where they were from, who they were with.
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Speaker 2: Maybe I looked at the wrong place. Maybe my search
12:14
Speaker 2: engine is really tired of me, and like I can't
12:16
Speaker 2: answer this question for you leave me alone, because I
12:19
Speaker 2: got some like real like heavy blocks in trying to
12:21
Speaker 2: find some of those answers. But there was a mention
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Speaker 2: of a crew of an all women's crew in the
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Speaker 2: nineteen forties, but I don't think they were actually paid.
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Speaker 1: M well, as we continue to do more research, it
12:46
Speaker 1: was much later that any other women would be recognized
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Speaker 1: as being part of the wildland firefighters and be integrated
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Speaker 1: as paid staff. In nineteen seventy one, we see one
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Speaker 1: of the first women to be hired, Caroline Cara Peters,
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Speaker 1: but she was quickly fired after that. That didn't stop
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Speaker 1: her though. Here's a quote about her history from BLM
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Speaker 1: dot gov or Bureau of Land Management dot gov.
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Speaker 2: Quote.
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Speaker 1: Car first went to the press to make her case
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Speaker 1: known to the public, then contacted a lawyer and finally
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Speaker 1: made a direct appeal to the BLM. Because of growing
13:22
Speaker 1: fire pressures at the time, women had been filling positions
13:25
Speaker 1: such as working in dispatch and packing parachutes. However, Kara
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Speaker 1: was told that she couldn't be a forest firefighter because
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Speaker 1: it was not reasonable to expect the bureau to provide
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Speaker 1: separate sleeping accommodations and bathroom facilities for men and women
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Speaker 1: on the fire lines. Eventually, however, Cara was told that
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Speaker 1: if she could assemble twelve suitable candidates half of a
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Speaker 1: normal crew, they would begin a pilot program to test
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Speaker 1: whether women had the necessary strength and endurance. She returned
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Speaker 1: with twenty three women.
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Speaker 2: Right, so when we say she was fired quickly, we
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Speaker 2: mean four hours after she was hired. She was hired
14:01
Speaker 2: like it was so quick, Like they were like, oh,
14:04
Speaker 2: we made a mistake, You're gone. So she and the
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Speaker 2: other ladies were not only able to train and pass
14:10
Speaker 2: without any trouble, but soon she and her team would
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Speaker 2: go on to work alongside with other firefighters at the
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Speaker 2: Wickersham Dome fire around Fairbanks, becoming one of the first
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Speaker 2: to do so in BLM history. Again, I want to
14:22
Speaker 2: put this asterisk here, we're saying first very loosely because
14:26
Speaker 2: there could be others that we don't know about. Like
14:28
Speaker 2: I said, there's still a lot of information. I'm like,
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Speaker 2: there's gotta be more that we just don't know. So
14:32
Speaker 2: who knows. We might find more information later in time.
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Speaker 2: So some of this might sound like because we won't
14:37
Speaker 2: say the first, that's just the asterisk that we're always
14:41
Speaker 2: placing in because we know history is ever growing and
14:43
Speaker 2: we're finding out new things, So, you know, just so
14:46
Speaker 2: do we put that there? And just because here's a
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Speaker 2: quote from a nineteen seventy one article from the crew
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Speaker 2: chief at the time. Quote, the women competed successfully with
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Speaker 2: the men and in fact were superior in many respects
15:00
Speaker 2: as far as our physical capabilities. All were capable of
15:03
Speaker 2: handling the job and did like He was thoroughly impressed.
15:06
Speaker 2: Even though varsity like nasinks.
15:10
Speaker 1: The ladies the ladiest, And soon after we had other
15:18
Speaker 1: ladies taking a step further into the field by becoming
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Speaker 1: some of the first women to be on hot shot crewise.
15:25
Speaker 1: Hot shot crews are interagency hot shot crews are highly
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Speaker 1: trained wildland fire crews that are specialized workers trained to
15:32
Speaker 1: lead and be on hand for all phases of a fire.
15:36
Speaker 1: Here's a specific description from the Forest Services site. Interagency
15:41
Speaker 1: hot Shot Crews hiic's, commonly called hot shots or hot
15:45
Speaker 1: shot crews, are highly trained, specialized wild and fire hand
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Speaker 1: crews that perform some of the most demanding and hazardous
15:52
Speaker 1: tasks in wild and firefighting. Their profession requires a high
15:56
Speaker 1: level of physical fitness and the ability to demonstrate a
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Speaker 1: extensive knowledge of fire behavior, with the ability to develop
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Speaker 1: and implement strategy and tactics on the most complex incidents
16:06
Speaker 1: under extreme conditions, be a high aptitude for mitigating a
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Speaker 1: risk using exemplary situational awareness and outstanding communication skills, and
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Speaker 1: see excellent leadership characteristics at all levels. Their primary mission
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Speaker 1: is to provide a safe, professional, mobile, and highly skilled
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Speaker 1: type one hand crew status for all phases of fire
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Speaker 1: management and incident operations.
16:30
Speaker 2: So who are some of the first ladies to be
16:33
Speaker 2: a part of this elite crew. Thanks to Amanda monte
16:37
Speaker 2: I Hope I had said your name right, a former
16:39
Speaker 2: fellow hotshot crew member from Oregon, and her article for
16:43
Speaker 2: Outside online dot Com, we're able to talk about some
16:46
Speaker 2: of these women and their works and how they are
16:48
Speaker 2: able to break barrier so thank you. And I think
16:51
Speaker 2: she is actually actively on a podcast too, or produces
16:54
Speaker 2: the podcast for women and wildline firefighters. But she did
16:57
Speaker 2: this article in these interviews after she discovered photos, all
17:02
Speaker 2: these old photos of hot Shot members that were women,
17:05
Speaker 2: So she went on a search and found them and
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Speaker 2: spoke to a few of them. So let's start with
17:10
Speaker 2: Dana Feldman. Feldman told Monthay that she didn't know what
17:13
Speaker 2: she was getting into originally. Here's a bit from her interview.
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Speaker 2: To be honest, if someone told me what this whole
17:19
Speaker 2: fire thing would require, I would have said, oh, I
17:22
Speaker 2: can't do that, says Dana Feldman, who worked for Baker
17:25
Speaker 2: River Hotshots in the late nineteen seventies and early nineteen eighties.
17:28
Speaker 2: I had no idea what I was getting into, and
17:31
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have done it if I had. But what
17:33
Speaker 2: fire taught me over and over and over again was
17:36
Speaker 2: how to throw myself into things and just start flapping
17:38
Speaker 2: my wings somewhere along the line. And though she may
17:42
Speaker 2: have gone in without really understanding it, she definitely excelled,
17:45
Speaker 2: even earning a performance award in her first season, and
17:49
Speaker 2: her work was so impressive her leaders even told her
17:52
Speaker 2: he would never have a fire crew without a woman
17:55
Speaker 2: in it. She even became the first woman hotshot squad
17:58
Speaker 2: boss at Baker River. She eventually left the field to
18:01
Speaker 2: go on to become a psychotherapist, but she does talk
18:04
Speaker 2: about her experience.
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Speaker 1: Then we have Sue Husari, who worked with Lawson hotshot Crew.
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Speaker 1: She was the first woman for the crew and for
18:13
Speaker 1: the state. Hears a little bit from her interview quote.
18:17
Speaker 1: Husori was hired to loss in a hot shot crew
18:19
Speaker 1: in northern California in nineteen seventy six. She was the
18:23
Speaker 1: first woman on the crew and one of the first
18:25
Speaker 1: women on a hot shot crew in the state. I
18:28
Speaker 1: still don't know why they decided to hire a woman.
18:31
Speaker 1: It was very unusual, she says. Still, her experience on
18:35
Speaker 1: Lawson was overwhelmingly positive. Hussari says she wasn't treated differently
18:40
Speaker 1: than her male colleagues, except that her coworkers often looked
18:43
Speaker 1: out for her, particularly because she was just twenty one
18:46
Speaker 1: when she was hired. While she was new to the
18:49
Speaker 1: world of wildland fire. It didn't take long for Husari
18:52
Speaker 1: to realize that she was well suited for the rigors
18:54
Speaker 1: of hot shotting. My best attribute for firefighting was endurance,
18:59
Speaker 1: and I think that's common for most women who do this,
19:01
Speaker 1: she says, noting that she spent her youth in teenage
19:04
Speaker 1: years backpacking in the Syria Nevada with her dad. I
19:08
Speaker 1: wasn't a natural athlete, but I could hike, I could
19:10
Speaker 1: carry heavy stuff, and I was familiar with the outdoors,
19:13
Speaker 1: so I was good at it.
19:14
Speaker 2: Right. And then we have a Kimberly Brandle, who was
19:17
Speaker 2: the first woman to be hired with the Zigzag Hotshot crew,
19:20
Speaker 2: and she was honest about some of the challenges she
19:23
Speaker 2: faced during her time on the crew. From her interview quote,
19:26
Speaker 2: Randall is refreshingly honest about her first year working as
19:29
Speaker 2: a hotshot in a world that was still a bit
19:31
Speaker 2: unsure about having women around. It was the attitude of
19:34
Speaker 2: a lot of men that I didn't belong there, and
19:36
Speaker 2: that I was never going to be a part of
19:38
Speaker 2: the group because they didn't think I belonged there, She said.
19:40
Speaker 2: A gradual cultural shift in the fourth Service soon contributed
19:43
Speaker 2: to more women being hired to the crew. Even still,
19:46
Speaker 2: it took years to change the perception that women on
19:48
Speaker 2: hotshot crews were tokens or only there to fill a quota.
19:52
Speaker 2: When I started in fire fire crews were like a
19:54
Speaker 2: pie cut into twenty pieces, and only one piece of
19:57
Speaker 2: that pie was allocated for women were allocated for men,
20:01
Speaker 2: Brittle says, but with her own hard work and abilities,
20:04
Speaker 2: she was able to become a part of the leadership
20:06
Speaker 2: and was able to help and bring in more women,
20:10
Speaker 2: providing more equal space in the field.
20:13
Speaker 1: And we have Gina Popka who became a hot shot
20:16
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three, but would make history by becoming
20:19
Speaker 1: the first woman superintendent of a hot shot crew in
20:22
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one from Monte Quote. After beginning her career
20:26
Speaker 1: with the Mount Hood National Forest based Zigzag hot Shots
20:30
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three, Papka went on to become the
20:32
Speaker 1: country's first permanent female hot shot superintendent, the highest position
20:37
Speaker 1: on a hot shot crew, in nineteen ninety one. Only
20:40
Speaker 1: eleven women have since held that position, compared to more
20:43
Speaker 1: than seven hundred men since hot shot crews were first
20:46
Speaker 1: established in the nineteen forties, meaning just over one percent
20:49
Speaker 1: of superintendent positions on the countries one hundred and ten
20:52
Speaker 1: hot shot crews have been filled by a woman, And
20:56
Speaker 1: the article continues. Popka was known for being a radically
21:00
Speaker 1: inclusive in or hiring. She made a concerted effort to
21:03
Speaker 1: continue Zigzag's long history of seeing the value and including
21:06
Speaker 1: women and other marginalized people on the crew. Long before
21:10
Speaker 1: such practices were being utilized on other crews around the country.
21:14
Speaker 1: Popka was regularly hiring four to six women to round
21:16
Speaker 1: out her twenty person crew, and up to eight women
21:19
Speaker 1: when there was an influx of good applicants. Even today,
21:23
Speaker 1: it's rare to find hot shot crews with more than
21:26
Speaker 1: two or three women. Women sought me because I was
21:29
Speaker 1: the only female hot shot superintendent and we were known
21:32
Speaker 1: to be a good crew, she says, For me, it
21:35
Speaker 1: was just giving them an opportunity to see what they
21:37
Speaker 1: could do with themselves. Women underestimate themselves, but I knew
21:42
Speaker 1: they'd do well.
21:43
Speaker 2: I feel like it ties in with a feld. Then
21:45
Speaker 2: when she was like, if I know, and I wouldn't
21:46
Speaker 2: have done it right, I would have thought I could exactly,
21:51
Speaker 2: So with those furs, I wanted to add one more.
21:54
Speaker 2: And that's the first woman to become a smoke jumper.
21:58
Speaker 2: And here's an explanation of smoke jumpers from and IFC.
22:01
Speaker 2: Smoke jumpers are unique because of the way they reach
22:03
Speaker 2: the fire line. They parachute from an airplane three thousand
22:06
Speaker 2: feet above the ground. When wildfires a night in remote
22:09
Speaker 2: and isolated locations, smoke jumpers are able to reach them
22:12
Speaker 2: fast because they can parachute to wildfires when there are
22:15
Speaker 2: no roads or trails nearby and get to work long
22:18
Speaker 2: before anyone could hike or drive to the fire. Smoke
22:21
Speaker 2: Jumping is a physically and mentally demanding line of work
22:23
Speaker 2: that requires a broad knowledge of firefighting. Smoke Jumpers are
22:27
Speaker 2: also heavily involved in prescribed fire management and hazardous fuels
22:31
Speaker 2: reduction efforts. Smoke Jumpers are experienced wildland firefighters with expertise
22:37
Speaker 2: in initial attack firefighting, and work with a variety of aircrafts.
22:41
Speaker 2: And who is this incredible woman who made history we're
22:45
Speaker 2: talking about Dann Shulman. Schulman not only had to work
22:49
Speaker 2: to meet the industry standard at the time, but had
22:51
Speaker 2: to push through the sexism within the industry. So here's
22:54
Speaker 2: a quote from the National Forest dot Org. The first
22:57
Speaker 2: woman smoke jumper, Dann Shulman, was higher in nineteen seventy nine,
23:01
Speaker 2: but despite meeting the established physical fitness standards, was washed
23:05
Speaker 2: from the program for being a few pounds under the
23:07
Speaker 2: required weight. This was despite it being known that there
23:10
Speaker 2: was several underweight men on the other bases. After filing
23:14
Speaker 2: an Equal Employment Opportunity Commission complaint supported by one of
23:17
Speaker 2: those underweight men, Deane was allowed to try again, so
23:21
Speaker 2: long as she weighed at least one hundred and thirty
23:23
Speaker 2: pounds on the first day of her appointment. This requirement
23:26
Speaker 2: has since been lowered to one hundred and twenty pounds,
23:28
Speaker 2: but the physical fitness standards, including one hundred and ten
23:31
Speaker 2: pounds pack test, remained the same. In nineteen eighty one,
23:34
Speaker 2: she completed RICKI Cheney and jumped at the McCall, Idaho
23:37
Speaker 2: smoke Jumper Base for five years. And here's a bit
23:41
Speaker 2: more of her story from an interview she did with
23:43
Speaker 2: Bakersfield's Californian. In nineteen eighty one, she became a smoke
23:47
Speaker 2: jumper at McCall smoke Jumper Base in Idaho. The process
23:50
Speaker 2: of proving herself began yet again, but her intelligence, courage, stamina,
23:55
Speaker 2: strength and knowledge of firefighting won the day. By my
23:58
Speaker 2: fourth season, the jumpers or bragging that they had the
24:01
Speaker 2: first woman smoke jumper, Schulmann remembered, not only has she
24:05
Speaker 2: earned her place as a smoke jumper, she earned the
24:07
Speaker 2: respect of her fellow jumpers. So within the article, she
24:11
Speaker 2: spoke about the harassment she face being one of two
24:14
Speaker 2: women that was a part of the hot shot crew
24:16
Speaker 2: and even more so with her fighting to become a
24:19
Speaker 2: smoke jumper. But she also talked about how she was
24:21
Speaker 2: able to love the time she had as a smoke jumper.
24:25
Speaker 1: Here's some more from her interview quote. In spite of it,
24:27
Speaker 1: all the pornographic calendars, the juvenile pranks, and the institutional
24:31
Speaker 1: barriers to women, working as a smoke jumper for five
24:35
Speaker 1: seasons was an amazing experience, Shulman said. Underneath all this harassment,
24:40
Speaker 1: I knew they respected me because I could keep up.
24:42
Speaker 1: Shulman told her wrapped audience. I also knew they loved
24:45
Speaker 1: me in a brotherly way. I felt that very deeply.
24:48
Speaker 1: Otherwise I couldn't have been on that crew. It was
24:50
Speaker 1: kind of magical to be in such good physical shape
24:53
Speaker 1: and keeping up with them. She remembered, we got to
24:55
Speaker 1: travel all over to beautiful wilderness areas the kamarade, working
25:00
Speaker 1: forty eight hours straight on a fire, Shulman said, you
25:04
Speaker 1: develop all that stuff that happens when groups of people
25:06
Speaker 1: work in adverse situations together.
25:09
Speaker 2: So there's obviously other departments I guess, or specialties within
25:13
Speaker 2: the wildland firefighters inclanding, repelling, and then like fuel crew
25:18
Speaker 2: and all of that, And we didn't get into every
25:20
Speaker 2: single one of them. Apparently, it is known that the
25:22
Speaker 2: smoke jumpers get like the most romantic size because you know,
25:25
Speaker 2: they're jumping out of an airplane with water out of
25:29
Speaker 2: the time, so they get they get some movies about them.
25:31
Speaker 2: I think there may be an actual movie about Shulman,
25:34
Speaker 2: or at least some references to her. I feel like,
25:36
Speaker 2: any this would be something you would want to do
25:38
Speaker 2: once upon a time. Yeah, you would have been like, yeah,
25:43
Speaker 2: I can do this, let me try this. Of course,
25:46
Speaker 2: these are just a few of the amazing women who
25:48
Speaker 2: are breaking down the walls within the industry. But with that,
25:52
Speaker 2: where are we today? Though we do see more women
25:55
Speaker 2: in the field, it is still significantly low. So here's
25:58
Speaker 2: a quote from a twenty twenty National Geographic article titled
26:01
Speaker 2: the Women Battling Wildfires and Breaking Barriers in the American Wilderness. Quote.
26:06
Speaker 2: Now more than ten thousand strong. They gather each summer,
26:09
Speaker 2: mostly in the Western States, to defend national forests and
26:12
Speaker 2: public lands. In the past, women in this male dominated
26:15
Speaker 2: field have faced implicit biases, sexism, and powerful gatekeepers who
26:19
Speaker 2: didn't make them welcome. Today, women still only make up
26:23
Speaker 2: twelve percent of wildland firefighters, so some more recent numbers though,
26:28
Speaker 2: have shown them that it has gone up to almost
26:30
Speaker 2: thirteen percent. I think it kind of varies. I saw
26:33
Speaker 2: one it says that like twelve point seven percent.
26:36
Speaker 1: So E.
26:39
Speaker 2: But the atmosphere hasn't seemed to have been very welcoming
26:42
Speaker 2: even now, and many have faced some issues after starting
26:46
Speaker 2: in the field. Here's a quote from a recent Force
26:49
Speaker 2: Services article. Quote. A twenty nineteen survey by the Pacific
26:53
Speaker 2: Northwest Research Station found seventy five percent of female wildland
26:57
Speaker 2: firefighters felt out of place due to their gender. The
27:02
Speaker 2: survey also revealed that one third of the employee surveyed
27:05
Speaker 2: believe that personal characteristics such as race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age,
27:11
Speaker 2: disability status, and family caregiver status had hindered their career
27:15
Speaker 2: advancement in wildland.
27:16
Speaker 1: Fire and with that, the field has also had to
27:29
Speaker 1: face their own me too movement. The issues playing the
27:32
Speaker 1: industry became known within the field in twenty eighteen and
27:36
Speaker 1: were addressed by the vice president of the Association for
27:39
Speaker 1: Fire Ecology at the time. Here's a quote that you
27:43
Speaker 1: can find under for Services quote. The resignation of United
27:47
Speaker 1: States Forest Service Chief Tony took in March twenty eighteen
27:51
Speaker 1: under allegations of sexual misconduct have highlighted the need for
27:54
Speaker 1: our wildfire communities to build our collective capacity to confront
27:58
Speaker 1: and address these controversial topics. Sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, and
28:03
Speaker 1: gender discrimination is known to be widespread in many government agencies,
28:07
Speaker 1: including the US Forest Service, National Park Service, and US military.
28:12
Speaker 1: The United States is not alone in facing these issues.
28:15
Speaker 1: Canada and Australia report similar trends, and the report continues
28:20
Speaker 1: with some statistics. In twenty fifteen, an af survey with
28:25
Speaker 1: almost three hundred and fifty respondents revealed that thirty two
28:28
Speaker 1: percent reported observing incidents of sexual harassment in the workplace
28:32
Speaker 1: and twenty four percent experienced it directly. Fifty four percent
28:36
Speaker 1: reported observing gender discrimination of others in the workplace and
28:39
Speaker 1: forty four percent reported experiencing it. Sixty four percent of
28:43
Speaker 1: respondents who experienced sexual harassment and sixty percent who experienced
28:47
Speaker 1: gender discrimination did not report it.
28:50
Speaker 2: Right and again this is because a big scandal happened
28:54
Speaker 2: with the lead chief. So that's just the reminder. But
28:58
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, PBS did a report with women coming
29:01
Speaker 2: forward to about the level of harassment and insults that
29:04
Speaker 2: they had experienced within the four services. Three of the
29:07
Speaker 2: women interviewed stated they had been raped by fellow employees
29:10
Speaker 2: as well. And of course these allegations, aren't you in
29:13
Speaker 2: five In twenty fourteen, seven women wildland firefighters filed the
29:17
Speaker 2: complaint against the Department of Agriculture quote, alleging that they
29:20
Speaker 2: suffered job discrimination, harassment, and sexual abuse at the hands
29:24
Speaker 2: of male coworkers and that top agency officials failed to
29:27
Speaker 2: stop it. And this was according to Wildfire Today dot
29:30
Speaker 2: com and Yeah. In that same article, it says September
29:33
Speaker 2: twenty second, twenty sixteen, the House Committee on Oversight and
29:37
Speaker 2: Government Reform her testimony from two employees about harassment and
29:41
Speaker 2: the NPS and the USFS. Kelly Martin, fire management officer
29:45
Speaker 2: at Yosemite National Park, described quote a hostile work environment
29:48
Speaker 2: in Yosemite where dozens of individuals have come forward with
29:52
Speaker 2: personal statements of demoralizing behavior to include acts of bullying,
29:56
Speaker 2: gender biases, and favoritism. She also described sexual heal harassment
30:00
Speaker 2: in previous jobs where she worked for the USFS. But again,
30:04
Speaker 2: these are the only issues. What about the intersectional communities
30:08
Speaker 2: within this field. Here's some information from a research paper
30:12
Speaker 2: titled Gender, sexual orientation, and Ethnicity and socioeconomic factors influence
30:17
Speaker 2: how wildland firefighters communicate their work experiences. Approximately eighty three
30:22
Speaker 2: point six percent of wildland firefighters are white, seventy eight
30:26
Speaker 2: point seven percent are male, and ninety three point five
30:29
Speaker 2: percent identify as straight. The numbers alone are fairly discouraging,
30:33
Speaker 2: but within this research, they also found that the marginalized
30:35
Speaker 2: communities were at much greater risks mentally and physically. So
30:39
Speaker 2: here's some disturbing details within the research. Very limited research
30:43
Speaker 2: exists that contextualizes wildland firefighters, but work on female firefighters
30:48
Speaker 2: in Canada shows that other ring through discrimination and hostility
30:52
Speaker 2: played a key role in women's experiences in the career. Likewise,
30:57
Speaker 2: few studies directly examined the ways in which these stressors
31:00
Speaker 2: may differentially impact minority and modulize wildland firefighters. Those that
31:05
Speaker 2: do report trends and experiences rather than context. A quantitative
31:09
Speaker 2: survey of wildland firefighters experiences observed significantly higher rates of
31:13
Speaker 2: reported injury in bipock wildland firefighters than white wildland firefighters. Similarly,
31:20
Speaker 2: they found occupational fatality for black workers was one point
31:24
Speaker 2: three to one point five times higher than that of
31:27
Speaker 2: white workers, and they also found that black women were
31:30
Speaker 2: more likely to be injured than white women while working
31:33
Speaker 2: in agricultural settings.
31:35
Speaker 1: And of course the mental health issues and crises that
31:38
Speaker 1: happen with this field are substantial. Unfortunately, the data seems
31:42
Speaker 1: to be lacking. As you can tell, some research is
31:45
Speaker 1: being conducted, but it does seem that a lot moarnings
31:49
Speaker 1: to be done. Here's a bit from psychiatryonline dot org
31:53
Speaker 1: about the whole thing.
31:55
Speaker 2: Quote.
31:56
Speaker 1: A national survey of all types of firefighters conducted several
31:59
Speaker 1: years back found that fifty five percent of firefighters reported
32:02
Speaker 1: a history of suicidal behavior, compared with thirty two percent
32:07
Speaker 1: of non wildlane firefighters, according to a report by Ian H.
32:10
Speaker 1: Stanley and Moore in the August twenty eighteen Psychiatry Research
32:15
Speaker 1: One potential explanation was that wildland firefighters reported less sense
32:20
Speaker 1: of belongingness, such as having few friends and feeling disconnected
32:23
Speaker 1: from other people. However, out of more than one one
32:27
Speaker 1: hundred respondents. Only twenty were wildland firefighters, the rest being
32:32
Speaker 1: structural firefighters.
32:33
Speaker 2: Right and they continue. Recently, dedicated researchers, many with ties
32:37
Speaker 2: to the wildland firefighter community, have begun to bring in
32:41
Speaker 2: a more quantitative data on a variety of health and
32:44
Speaker 2: wellness topics. Patricia O'Brien, PhD, a prior wildland firefighter who
32:48
Speaker 2: went on to pursue a psychology degree, surveyed over twenty
32:52
Speaker 2: six hundred current, former and retired wildline firefighters as part
32:55
Speaker 2: of her dissertation. Respondents filled out a variety of mental
32:59
Speaker 2: health screening measure and answered other questions about their experiences.
33:03
Speaker 2: She presented her findings in twenty twenty one at the
33:05
Speaker 2: Wildfire sixth Annual Human Dimensions Conference, and they were alarming.
33:09
Speaker 2: Seventeen percent of wildland firefighters reported symptoms consistent with diagnosis
33:13
Speaker 2: of depression and thirteen percent reported symptoms consistent with generalized anxiety,
33:18
Speaker 2: and both about two to three times higher than the
33:21
Speaker 2: general populations. The prevalence of probable post traumatic stress disorder
33:25
Speaker 2: was nearly fourteen percent, which is four times the rate
33:28
Speaker 2: in the general population. Further, less than half of the
33:31
Speaker 2: respondents who had symptoms consistent with PTSD reported that they
33:34
Speaker 2: had been clinically diagnosed with the disorder, highlighting that this
33:37
Speaker 2: condition remains underdetected, unrecognized, and undertreated in a clearly at
33:42
Speaker 2: risk group. More than half of the respondents reported been
33:46
Speaker 2: drinking at least once in the past month, while twenty
33:49
Speaker 2: two percent reported heavy drinking, and not surprisingly, cigarette use
33:53
Speaker 2: was rare in this group, but nearly thirty seven percent
33:55
Speaker 2: use smokeless tobacco products.
33:58
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, with the relatively your information, there doesn't seem to
34:02
Speaker 1: be a whole lot of resources for wildland firefighters. The
34:06
Speaker 1: conversation of whether or not the government should be providing
34:09
Speaker 1: services along the lines of VA healthcare has been ongoing,
34:13
Speaker 1: but because of the structure of the field, it seems
34:15
Speaker 1: part of confusion is who has authority over which unit.
34:20
Speaker 2: Right, I kind of just spreads in different areas where
34:24
Speaker 2: who is under what governmental authority, So they are not
34:30
Speaker 2: unifying in how they should be treated or even recognizing
34:33
Speaker 2: the fact that they need to be treated. I think
34:34
Speaker 2: also part of the conversation, and I've seen this a
34:36
Speaker 2: lot when it comes to seasonal workers, even though it's seasonal.
34:39
Speaker 2: Because of the way this goes about and not necessarily
34:45
Speaker 2: because it's like it's a sale, it's a Christmas sell,
34:47
Speaker 2: you know, like you know what I mean that. I
34:50
Speaker 2: think they really do see this as less hectic, but
34:54
Speaker 2: the amount of pressure I'm sure that they go through
34:56
Speaker 2: is intense just in general firefighters, but because the firefighters
34:59
Speaker 2: are all ongoing and often see as an emergency response continuously,
35:05
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if that's like they're seen as civil servants
35:08
Speaker 2: even though I would assume the four services are federal level,
35:12
Speaker 2: but yet they still haven't gotten to the point they're like,
35:14
Speaker 2: oh yeah, maybe we should provide some services other than
35:17
Speaker 2: when they get hurt hurt. Ah. So the question is
35:21
Speaker 2: has a culture really changed? The numbers seem like they're
35:24
Speaker 2: kind of rising again, not significantly, zero point seven percent.
35:28
Speaker 2: Looked like more attention has been brought about the need
35:31
Speaker 2: for diversity, but again it doesn't seem to be fast
35:36
Speaker 2: in this progression. However, there have been several initiatives that
35:39
Speaker 2: have been implemented in order to bring some equal opportunities.
35:43
Speaker 2: One of the programs out there is including the California
35:46
Speaker 2: Conservation Corps or the CCC, And here's some information from
35:49
Speaker 2: nineteenth News dot org. The California Conservation Corps or CCC,
35:54
Speaker 2: a paid conservation of work development program for their residents
35:58
Speaker 2: ages eighteen to twenty five. Unlike the Civilian Conservation Corps,
36:02
Speaker 2: a program started under President Franklin D. Roosevelt aimed at
36:06
Speaker 2: putting men to work in the national parts and Force,
36:08
Speaker 2: the California version has been co ed since its launch
36:12
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy six. However, women make up only twenty
36:16
Speaker 2: five percent of the CORE members, depending on which of
36:19
Speaker 2: the twenty four centers they are located at. The work
36:22
Speaker 2: CCC members do range from apprenticeships in conservation, habit restoration,
36:27
Speaker 2: and energy to emergency management assistance in fires, floods, and mudslides.
36:31
Speaker 2: Part of the CCC's mandate is to recruit from low
36:34
Speaker 2: income or otherwise marginalized population, providing a pathway into good jobs.
36:40
Speaker 2: The CORE requires that participants who don't have a high
36:43
Speaker 2: school diploma participate in the education program that allows members
36:47
Speaker 2: to take classes alongside their core's work to earn one.
36:51
Speaker 2: So even though this is not the greatest program, at
36:54
Speaker 2: least it is co ed and I did see other
36:56
Speaker 2: organizations do pull from that program to put in to
37:00
Speaker 2: their own internship, so it could be a good opportunity.
37:03
Speaker 2: Oh that could always be betterbellies they look at some
37:05
Speaker 2: of the marginalized communities.
37:07
Speaker 1: Yes, there are also programs like Women in Wildland Fire
37:12
Speaker 1: which even hosts events. Here's some information from their site.
37:16
Speaker 1: We are current and former wildland firefighters who have come
37:19
Speaker 1: together to share the experiences of women in fire. We
37:22
Speaker 1: aim to explore the challenges faced, highlight the progress made,
37:26
Speaker 1: and build a community to support and assist women and
37:29
Speaker 1: other underrepresented groups in this field. Right.
37:32
Speaker 2: And not only do they put on interesting events that
37:35
Speaker 2: the one just happened in April where they had different
37:38
Speaker 2: speakers come through, but they also have guides on how
37:41
Speaker 2: to apply for jobs and even give you a list
37:43
Speaker 2: of jobs that are opened and help you with employment guides.
37:46
Speaker 2: So that's good. And they have a great list of
37:48
Speaker 2: resources and organizations to look into for more help or information,
37:53
Speaker 2: so they've got some access. So they also have like
37:55
Speaker 2: some podcasts that they recommend about women in wildland firefighting.
38:00
Speaker 2: So a lot of information from them, and there's several
38:03
Speaker 2: more in different states have started doing different programs as well. Obviously,
38:07
Speaker 2: when we're talking about states, we're talking more about the
38:09
Speaker 2: Western area. I saw some for Colorado, obviously, California and Washington,
38:15
Speaker 2: which is some of the big stuff that is happening
38:18
Speaker 2: because we are in the season. Unfortunately, and as we
38:20
Speaker 2: read in that New York Times article, it has already begun.
38:24
Speaker 2: We know while land fire has been raising due to
38:28
Speaker 2: a dude lighting his car on fire and just wanting
38:32
Speaker 2: to set something on fire. And this has been a
38:34
Speaker 2: conversation of a lot of concerns about again, what is
38:38
Speaker 2: happening with the environment, what is the cause is how
38:41
Speaker 2: do we stop it? The suppression conversation, the control burning
38:44
Speaker 2: conversation is a lot, but it's good to know that
38:47
Speaker 2: there are some good people out there doing what they can,
38:49
Speaker 2: risking their lives for us.
38:51
Speaker 1: So thank you, yes, yes, thank you, and listeners. If
38:55
Speaker 1: you have any experience with this, whether it's you or
38:59
Speaker 1: some you know, if you have any resources anything we
39:02
Speaker 1: should check out, please let us know. You can email
39:07
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39:10
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39:14
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39:17
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39:18
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39:21
Speaker 1: our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you
39:24
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