Latest / The Starfish Storytellers / Season 4, Episode 4: The Intersection of History & Financial Crime with Stefano Siggia

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Season 4, Episode 4: The Intersection of History & Financial Crime with Stefano Siggia · The Starfish Storytellers

0:00
Welcome to the starfish storytellers the podcast
0:03
that makes a difference one story at a time by
0:05
bringing storytelling to life And the age of
0:18
25 just months into my first anti money laundering
0:22
job I never imagined a play a role in solving
0:24
a murder case It all started with $3 ,000 in
0:40
Florida. The bank's transaction monitoring system
0:43
had flagged unusual activity coming from a client,
0:46
and that was assigned to investigate. The customer,
0:50
a Belgian plumber in his mid -30s, was withdrawing
0:53
$500 a day from various ATM machines in a specific
0:56
location in Florida. Strange, I thought. It wasn't
1:00
holiday season, and there was no obvious reason
1:02
to pay for a hotel in cash, especially not that
1:05
much. Suspecting his debit card had been cloned,
1:08
I called his account manager for more details.
1:10
She confirmed that he was indeed in Florida,
1:13
competing in a sporting event where he had won
1:15
several medals in the past. Fine, I thought.
1:18
But that still didn't really explain the large
1:20
amounts of cash. To verify her story, I googled
1:23
his name. Championship lists, athlete rankings,
1:27
and tournament standings filled the search results.
1:30
But among the accolades, I found an article that
1:32
stopped me cold. A year earlier, the man's father
1:35
had been shot dead outside of his home in Brussels.
1:37
The killers, later caught by the police, had
1:40
confessed to being hired by none other than her
1:42
client. The motive? Greed. The father and son
1:46
had a rocky relationship, which worsened when
1:48
the older man began dating a woman in her twenties
1:51
from El Salvador. Suspecting that the man would
1:54
leave his inheritance of two apartments to his
1:56
new partner, the son did the unthinkable. He
1:59
hired two hitmen to ensure that would not happen.
2:02
Investigations were ongoing and a trial would
2:04
start in the coming months. My heart dropped.
2:07
Could this be really happening? I needed to dig
2:10
deeper. I traced the man's account history, starting
2:12
in Florida and working my way back. The withdrawals
2:15
were not at one time a non -relief. 500 euros
2:18
were being cashed out every single day from ATMs
2:21
across Brussels. Months and months of withdrawals
2:24
amounted to tens of thousands of euros, until
2:27
I finally came upon the source of all his money.
2:29
Two apartments. sold out for an inheritance.
2:33
Suddenly, everything made sense. He knew he was
2:36
guilty. He was stashing the cash and preparing
2:38
for the possibility of prison. I compiled all
2:41
the information that I had at my disposal and
2:43
wrote a report to the budget financial intelligence
2:45
unit who forwarded it to the police. Until that
2:48
moment, I had no idea what had been happening
2:51
in his bank account. A trial came and the man
2:53
was convicted for murder. And that is the story
2:56
of how I played a role in solving a murder case.
3:23
My name is Liana Henry, and welcome to The Starfish
3:26
Storytellers. I'm the CEO of The Black Dog Group,
3:30
a MarCom and project management firm headquartered
3:32
on the east coast of the U .S. in quaint colonial
3:35
Bedford, Massachusetts. I'm your host and passionate
3:38
about storytelling. I'm actually on a mission
3:40
to raise up the next generation of storytellers.
3:43
We've named ourselves The Starfish Storytellers
3:45
after The Starfish Story. The moral of The Starfish
3:48
Story is based on the power of one. No matter
3:51
how big the challenge, each action we take makes
3:53
a difference and has an impact. One step, one
3:56
starfish, and one story at a time. Every episode,
3:59
we welcome a new storyteller who will share their
4:01
story meant to inspire and connect with you.
4:04
Then we'll break it down and offer tips for any
4:06
listeners who are ready to tell their own stories.
4:08
So thanks for tuning in. Now let's get started.
4:12
Today's episode is the intersection of history
4:14
and financial crime. And with me today is Stefano
4:17
Cigia. Stefano is a European anti -money laundering
4:21
consultant, historical storyteller, and author
4:24
of the novel Iron Shadow. Not only does he consult
4:27
on financial crimes, but he also brings history
4:30
to life through his writing. And if that's not
4:33
impressive enough, he's also written about the
4:36
risks of generative AI in financial crimes and
4:39
dreams of seeing his work in National Geographic.
4:42
So welcome to the show, Stefano. I know this
4:45
is going to be a very interesting conversation.
4:48
Hi, thanks a lot for having me. So when we start
4:51
all of our episodes, we asked our guests to introduce
4:53
themselves. Is there a little bit more you might
4:55
want to tell folks about you? Yeah, absolutely.
4:57
So I am actually Italian. My father was a diplomat.
5:01
We traveled around a lot when I was a kid growing
5:04
up. I lived in Bangladesh, China, Germany, a
5:08
little in Italy and Belgium, where I currently
5:10
live. And I've been living for almost, I would
5:12
say, 20 years. I am a consultant specialized
5:16
in anti -financial crime and anti -money laundering,
5:19
but I'm also a passionate writer. I wrote a novel
5:22
called The Iron Shadow, which is a World War
5:24
I spy story. And I'm also the regular contributor
5:29
and board member to the European column called
5:34
Your Express, OK Kim's Today, which is the magazine
5:37
of the Association of Certified Anti -Money Laundering
5:41
Specialists. For which I won an award actually
5:44
last year, the Asby Award, or I came third place
5:47
for Best Column. That's about it. That is a very
5:50
impressive resume. Thank you. Thank you for sharing
5:53
your story. I find it really interesting that
5:56
when you looked this person up, was it just regular
5:59
search that you were looking this person up,
6:01
or was there... certain databases or things that
6:04
you could go back into and do some further research
6:08
on him? No, it was regular search on Google.
6:11
Often we do that. There's something called negative
6:14
news. We try to look if a customer or something
6:18
has a negative news on them. Maybe they were
6:21
implicated in a case of corruption or some other
6:24
kind of crime. And so then we base our assumption,
6:29
our opinion on the negative news. I did find
6:33
negative news on the person. And of course, that
6:36
helps a lot with the understanding of what's
6:39
going on and with the investigation. When you
6:41
told the story, you talked about the progression
6:45
of the information and getting it to the police
6:47
and then the progression of the trial. How long
6:50
from when you discovered all of this information
6:54
to the trial and then ultimately him being arrested,
6:58
how long did that take? It took, I think, about
7:00
a year or so. Really? That's it? I think maybe
7:03
a little less than a year. Wow. Wow. That's amazing.
7:08
Yeah, took a while. Yeah, that's amazing. So
7:12
in this episode, I want to dive into both historical
7:16
storytelling as well as looking at your background
7:19
with financial crime. We want to peel back those
7:21
layers, looking at things like organized crime
7:24
and what lessons are we learning today from these
7:28
areas. History isn't just a record of the past.
7:31
It's a lens through which we understand power,
7:34
deception, and the patterns that continue to
7:36
shape our world today. And nowhere is this more
7:39
evident than in the stories of organized crime
7:42
and financial fraud, where the shadows of history
7:45
reveal the schemes, betrayals, and high stakes
7:48
game that are still playing out in modern finance
7:51
today. Not a lot has changed, I'm guessing. By
7:54
exploring these historical narratives, we don't
7:57
just uncover past crimes. we gain critical insights
8:00
into the present and the future. And I think
8:02
we're going to talk a little bit about sort of
8:03
where do you see the future of this going and
8:07
stopping crime. So you're ready to get started?
8:10
Ready. Awesome. Let's start with what might seem
8:12
like two totally different worlds. Your work
8:15
in anti -money laundering and your passion for
8:18
historical storytelling. Tell us what led you
8:21
to both of these areas and what are the connections
8:24
between them? For anti -money laundering, I think
8:26
like a lot of people, I think mostly 10 years
8:29
ago, I don't know about now, but I kind of fell
8:32
into the job. I was working in a bank. I was
8:36
doing other things completely different. Investments,
8:40
I was a payment officer for a while. And then
8:42
they needed somebody in anti -money laundering.
8:45
And they thought of me. I think mostly my background.
8:49
I studied international affairs in university.
8:52
So I think that kind of made them decide that
8:54
I could fit in there. And so I kind of fell into
8:58
it. And for the historical part, I've always
9:02
really loved history. Ever since I was a kid,
9:04
it's really, it's stories, you know, it's stories
9:07
about our past, where we come from, who we are,
9:11
how we got to where we are now. I think it also
9:14
sheds a light also where we're heading. If you
9:17
fuse the two, if you look at a bit of the history
9:19
of ads and money laundering, that's exactly what
9:21
it is. How did these organized crime groups?
9:25
start, what events led to their start, how have
9:30
they taken over their environment. It really
9:34
helps to understand their way of thinking, their
9:38
way of maneuvering themselves in whatever system
9:43
they want to maneuver themselves, for example,
9:45
in the economic system, etc. And it also shows
9:51
the failures that we've had and try to prevent
9:54
these groups from sprinting up. An example I
9:57
could give is the war on drugs that happened
10:00
in the 80s and 70s. That was a complete failure
10:03
that actually backfired. It didn't really do
10:05
much. And so I think history really shows where
10:09
all of this has come from, the mistakes we've
10:12
made and how we can improve them in the future.
10:15
When they tapped you to take this role, were
10:18
you pretty excited about it? Did you feel like
10:20
you really... could apply something that you've
10:24
learned and studied in a fresh way? Yes, I definitely
10:26
was excited by it. I already felt it was probably
10:29
the most exciting part of banking, trying to
10:32
find the criminals and try to bring it to justice.
10:35
And definitely there's a whole part on sanctions
10:38
when it comes to anti -money laundering. So these
10:41
are countries that are sanctioned for various
10:43
reasons or individuals are sanctioned for various
10:45
reasons. And there you have a lot of the international
10:49
relations. the things that I studied, I could
10:52
see within the sanction side of anti -money laundering.
10:56
The bog was the treaties between the countries
10:59
and everything. So there was a small element
11:02
to it. You're talking about sort of the history
11:05
of understanding where organized crime came from
11:09
and how they're going down the path of that where
11:11
they're going down. But in your role, do you
11:15
know, I know you're saying you're seeing sanctions
11:17
and you're talking about treaties or you're talking
11:18
about countries. I mean, are you working at that
11:21
level? Like, are you consulting at that level
11:23
with looking at governments and things like that?
11:26
No, no, no, no. But it's The whole part on sanctions
11:29
and treaties, it's still important to know it's
11:32
still something that is used often in financial
11:35
institutions, is used often when doing transactions
11:39
with certain countries. You know, what transactions
11:41
can you do with them? What can you not do with
11:43
them? What can individuals do with their money
11:46
in those countries? It's not at the level of
11:49
garments, but it's more the financial transaction
11:52
novel. Yeah. And understanding it, I mean, I'm
11:55
sure it sort of applies, right? Yeah. That's
11:58
great. So you've spent a career consulting on
12:01
financial fraud. From your perspective, what
12:04
are the biggest challenges we face today in stopping
12:08
money laundering and illicit finance? There are
12:11
a lot. And whenever there's a new technology,
12:14
crime is going to be there at the forefront to
12:16
try to figure out how they can use the technology
12:18
for their benefit. Of course, cryptocurrencies
12:21
are quite a big thing. They're often uh, used
12:25
especially to sell, uh, more illicit products,
12:30
especially in the dark web. The dark web is expanding
12:32
enormously. Type of markets that exist on there
12:36
used to be, I wouldn't say minimal, but there
12:38
used to be a few back in the day. Now it's really
12:41
overflowing. You also have a thing that has sprung
12:45
up recently. It's really growing a lot and it's
12:48
a fraud as a service. These are subscription
12:52
based services. I don't know, at least something
12:54
like Netflix, for example, where you pay 80 bucks
12:57
or 120 bucks a month, and you have a whole array
13:00
of tools that you can use for launch phishing
13:04
attacks against banks, trying to impersonate
13:07
customers and banks. Every different kind of
13:10
service gives a different kind of service for,
13:13
you know, whatever malicious intent you have.
13:16
And that is something that's really blowing up
13:18
now. Generative AI. is something that's being
13:22
used in crazy ways with that. So yeah, it's tough.
13:26
It's tough to try to figure out how to stop all
13:30
of this. Are you finding that banks and governments
13:34
and cybersecurity specialists and hackers that
13:38
people hire to break through some of this, are
13:40
they effective? I mean, it's moving so fast that
13:44
you learn most of it after it's done. Oh my goodness.
13:48
Regulators cannot keep up with them. laws take
13:51
time to create. For example, we recently here
13:55
in the EU, we have the AI Act, which is the first
13:58
AI law worldwide. I mean, there's so many new
14:01
things that don't fit within the law. They have
14:05
to create amendments for it, but you know, it
14:07
takes time to pass the amendment and everything.
14:10
Yeah, it's tough. It's really tough. I would
14:12
imagine that it gets pretty expensive for banks,
14:17
governments to get their hands on the tools that
14:21
are going to help them combat some of this. Absolutely.
14:24
And you have to build the tools as well. And
14:26
so you need specialists, you know, in that field.
14:30
There are not many of them. And so it's... There's
14:32
not a lot of specialists in that field. There
14:34
you go. Not easy, yeah. Not easy. Well, I mean,
14:36
you think about the... I mean, hackers gone good,
14:39
right? Hackers that were involved in doing nefarious
14:42
things, and now they're working for the governments.
14:45
I'm sure they're pretty valuable people to have
14:48
on teams. Do you find that you have to hire people
14:51
like that? It would be interesting, I think,
14:54
to have people like that. It's not something
14:56
you really hear about in the world if you had
14:58
to have money laundering. But thinking about
15:00
it, it would definitely be very helpful. And
15:02
I think certain companies definitely... do hire
15:06
people like them. I'm sure law enforcement has
15:09
lots of hackers. You're a triple, intrapole.
15:12
So definitely, yeah. Yeah, bringing them in for
15:15
sure. Yeah. That's fascinating. Okay. Let's pivot.
15:19
Let's talk about your novel, Iron Shadow. Give
15:23
us a little elevator pitch. What's the story
15:25
about and what inspired you to write it? So the
15:28
Iron Shadow is a spy story set during World War
15:32
I. So specifically in 1915 follows this character
15:35
called Melbourne Summers. He is a reconnaissance
15:39
pilot, British reconnaissance pilot stationed
15:41
in France. And he's actually quite old to be
15:45
a reconnaissance pilot at the age of 25. Most
15:47
of his squadron members have died. I mean, it's
15:51
very easy to die back then. All of a sudden,
15:53
he receives the news that his brother, who was
15:58
a, well, he believed he was a university professor.
16:01
specialized in English literature, has died in
16:04
German -occupied Belgium, searching for something
16:07
called the Iron Shadow, well, codenamed the Iron
16:09
Shadow. He discovers, basically, his brother
16:12
was a spy. Now, back then, being a spy was something
16:15
horrible. It was akin to being a murderer. It
16:17
was akin to being a scammer. You were a criminal
16:21
if you were a spy. So his world kind of crashes
16:24
on him, realizing this, and he thinks... Okay,
16:28
well, what do I do? Do I stay in the squadron
16:31
knowing I could possibly die or can I do something?
16:35
You gotta understand what my brother was doing
16:36
and he receives a letter from a woman he doesn't
16:41
know and in this letter is a poem and in the
16:44
poem is a code so he decides to go to the Secret
16:48
Service and ask to be sent to Belgium to retrace
16:53
the steps of his brother try to decode this poem
16:55
and try to find what The Irish Shadow is. And
16:59
so most of the story is set in Belgium, in Brussels,
17:03
which is occupied by the Germans. He tries to
17:06
decode this poem and figure out what The Irish
17:09
Shadow is. I wanted Spartan for it. I was in
17:13
college, I was a big fan of this... TV series,
17:16
I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's
17:18
called The Chronicles of Young Indiana Jones
17:19
or The Adventures of Indiana Jones. So it was
17:23
a series created in the early 90s to kind of
17:26
inspire kids to enjoy history more. It follows
17:30
Indiana Jones throughout three moments of his
17:33
life when he's a kid following his father around
17:35
Europe. And so there he meets different historical
17:38
characters. Season two, he's fighting in World
17:41
War one funny enough in the Belgian army and
17:43
he becomes a spy and those were my favorite episodes
17:45
and then the third season he goes to college
17:48
and I had a World War one Course and I had to
17:52
write a paper for it and at the Ohio. Yeah. Okay,
17:54
cool Why not take inspiration from me and Danny
17:56
Jones and do something on espionage? I loved
17:59
it and as everything that I love I want to find
18:02
out if there's more about if there's books movies
18:06
Etc and I saw that there actually wasn't that
18:10
much. And I thought, well, OK, I want to write
18:12
something. Well, this could be something I could
18:15
write about. I'm a history buff myself. I live
18:18
in an area that's very sort of American colonial,
18:21
a lot of colonial history in the New England
18:24
area. I've lived in towns that have had a lot
18:27
of colonial characters that have done things
18:30
and a lot of colonial structures, homes with
18:34
history. And so I'm a huge history buff. And
18:36
I... always find it fascinating. And one of the
18:39
questions I had for you, because your story is
18:41
fiction, but I've interviewed other storytellers
18:44
who are authors who've written historical fiction,
18:47
you still have to do a fair amount of research
18:49
for it to be authentic and believable. You do
18:53
need to have the research. You know, you've talked
18:55
a little bit about loving the Indiana Jones series
18:58
and paper that you wrote, but what might be one
19:02
of the most fascinating or unexpected discoveries?
19:06
that you might have had when you were writing
19:08
The Iron Shadow. Was there something in the research
19:11
that really surprised you? There was quite a
19:14
bit. Well, definitely the fact that being a spy
19:16
at the time was horrible. I remember when I was
19:20
a kid, I wanted to be a spy. I was a huge James
19:22
Bond fan. I was a huge Mission Impossible fan.
19:25
And back then, it was really akin to me, eight
19:29
years old, telling my parents, yeah, I really
19:31
want to become a serial killer when I grow up.
19:33
And it was really that level of... horribleness
19:36
that I had no idea and it really really really
19:40
surprised me. And another fact was well she's
19:43
known but she's not that known of a spy, German
19:46
spy, and known as Fraulein Doctor. That was her
19:49
nickname. We don't really know who she was in
19:53
reality. There were quite a few people that confessed
19:56
to being Fraulein Doctor under deathbed, but
19:59
there's no certainty that any of them were really
20:02
them. And what's really interesting A lot of
20:06
people say Mata Hari, you know, the famous World
20:08
War One spy, the exotic dancer, was sort of the
20:12
model for the modern -day femme fatale. But it
20:15
was actually Frowling Doctor. She was a seductress.
20:20
She was sadistic. She was ruthless. She had no
20:24
morals. She was a really, really interesting
20:27
character. that I didn't know the existence of.
20:31
And actually, she was used a lot in fiction afterwards,
20:35
right after World War. And also, I think in the
20:39
60s, there was a movie made about her. And that,
20:42
from there, you kind of started having this kind
20:46
of archetypal character of this female spy, this
20:49
seductress that would be ruthless and wasn't
20:52
afraid to kill. And so that really stemmed from...
20:56
Crowling Doctor. That was really interesting.
20:59
Was it really from Mata Hari? It was more from
21:00
her. And is there, in your book, is there a character
21:03
like that? Did you put something like that? Because,
21:06
I mean, I know you have the woman that wrote
21:07
the poem with the code. Uh, I would have to spoil
21:11
certain things, so I'm not... Oh, okay. All right.
21:14
Maybe yes, maybe not. Can people buy your book
21:17
anywhere? It will be re -released in the spring.
21:20
Probably around May sometime earlier. Of this
21:23
year? Of this year. Yes. And where will people
21:25
be able to get it? People can, I think they can
21:27
easily find it on Amazon. Oh, great. Okay, perfect.
21:32
So you'll have to stay in touch with me after
21:34
the podcast when it releases so we could promote
21:36
it. I would love to promote it, get my hands
21:38
on it. Thanks, all right. I love reading my storytellers'
21:40
books. So you are anti -money laundering specialist.
21:46
You've written this historical novel. Would you
21:50
say that the writing of the book has aligned
21:52
with your work? you know, that you do in preventing
21:55
financial fraud. And how would you approach storytelling
21:58
when writing fiction versus uncovering the truth?
22:01
Where are the similarities? Where are the differences
22:03
there? Fiction has helped me to craft stories
22:07
that then are within the sphere of anti -mine
22:10
law. For example, the articles that I write at
22:13
times, we often have to give trainings to different
22:17
kinds of people, different groups of employees
22:19
and banks. Of course, that definitely plays a
22:22
role. So I would say it definitely helped me
22:25
to shape better narratives and craft better stories
22:29
within the realm of anti -financial crime, which
22:33
actually storytelling is not something that's
22:37
really used a lot or really thought about when
22:40
it comes to anti -financial crime or anti -fraud
22:43
or anti -money laundering in general, but it's
22:45
something that's really useful. And I started
22:47
noticing that people are getting more into it.
22:50
It really helps to understand money laundering
22:55
schemes. For example, when we talk about fraud,
22:59
if you let a fraud victim tell their story of
23:03
how they fell into a fraud scheme, what happened,
23:09
what the fraudster did to them, the emotional
23:12
damage that came with it, that has a much, much
23:16
stronger effect. then simply say, oh, there's
23:19
this fraud out there, watch out for it. You create
23:21
an emotional connection with the person hearing
23:24
the story. They're definitely going to remember
23:27
it better. And it's way more effective in preventing
23:30
the fraud than simply stating a fact. And that
23:33
is the same thing for anti -money laundering.
23:34
If you're giving a training to employees, you
23:37
don't just tell them, okay, well, this is the
23:38
regulation. You got to follow it because or else
23:41
we're going to be fined by the regulator. No,
23:43
you place them as the hero of a story. You guys
23:46
are there. to prevent all sorts of crimes, environmental
23:51
crime, human trafficking, et cetera. And then
23:54
you tell stories about it, let them understand
23:57
why it's important to follow anti -money laundering
24:02
regulations. Stories are way more effective than
24:05
simple facts. As an anti -money laundering consultant,
24:08
you obviously looking at the actual fraud that's
24:10
happening and... who the criminals are. But do
24:12
you actually get to deal with the victims? No.
24:15
Ever? Not me, particularly. I know certain people
24:18
in more of the fraud sector that do that. But
24:22
you're able to get your hands on their stories,
24:24
though, like you hear victim stories. Like you
24:28
said, like if you're doing a training, you want
24:30
to get people to pay attention and remember what
24:32
it is you're saying and you're using the victim
24:35
story. I mean, you're getting that from the people
24:37
that you're just saying. actually deal with that?
24:39
Yes, absolutely. There are many examples as well
24:41
online of that. Yeah. Of like different stories.
24:45
There's many reports that have these stories.
24:47
There are many organizations specialized in,
24:50
you know, helping the victims that often put
24:52
out these stories. And so, yeah. Wow. Do you
24:56
find that some of those stories drive you even
24:58
more in your mission? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
25:01
Especially if you hear stories about human trafficking
25:03
or child trafficking. It definitely absolutely
25:07
hits. It's hard. It's hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
25:12
Yeah. Powerful stuff. Wow. So you had mentioned
25:17
earlier about the technology and how trying to
25:20
stay ahead of the criminals because the minute
25:23
new technology comes, somebody's going to use
25:25
it. Obviously, AI is such a big topic. I know.
25:30
As a marketer, as a storyteller, we are always
25:33
pushing for responsible use of it. It's not something
25:36
going away. It's not something people aren't
25:38
going to use, but I think it needs to be used
25:40
responsibly. And there's been plenty of warnings
25:42
out there. There's plenty of specials on TV and
25:45
articles you can read about all of the ways that
25:47
it's being used, not for good purposes. So you
25:51
also have written about generative AI. You've
25:54
published some articles in magazines and things
25:56
like that, yeah. So you've talked about generative
25:59
AI and the potential dangers when it comes to
26:01
financial crime. And for those who may not know
26:04
or may not be familiar, what would you say are
26:07
the biggest risks AI presents in money laundering
26:10
and fraud? I think the biggest one at the moment
26:13
are deepfakes. And deepfakes for people who are
26:18
saying they don't know what they are. It is basically
26:21
generated media. that manipulates or replaces
26:24
real content with highly realistic content that
26:29
is fake, but of people and of events. I'll give
26:33
you an example of how it was used for fraud purposes.
26:36
This happened last year, I believe, in Hong Kong.
26:39
In a company, an employee receives an email from
26:41
their senior manager of the company saying, look,
26:45
there's an emergency. You have to send this much
26:47
money to this bank account. You have to do it
26:50
quickly. There's no time for it. Please go ahead
26:53
and do it. And he was kind of like, OK, that's
26:56
that's a bit bizarre. OK, but well, let me call
27:01
this guy or something. So he writes an email
27:03
like, hey, can we maybe set up a meeting or something?
27:06
And the guy was like, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
27:09
Sets up a meeting online. The guy goes to the
27:13
meeting and he sees the senior manager in front
27:16
of him. And next to him are a series of board
27:19
members as well. The senior manager again explains,
27:21
no, you have to send the money. It's an urgent
27:24
thing. For this reason, we want you to do it
27:28
specifically. And he's like, okay, well, I've
27:30
seen the manager. He was surrounded by board
27:32
members. I think it's something really urgent.
27:35
I should do it. And he does it. And he later
27:38
discovers that nobody on the call was real. It
27:41
was a group of criminals that had deep faked
27:44
the faces of the senior manager and board members
27:47
onto their face. During the video call so that
27:51
is that is being used a lot for Fraud cases not
27:57
only video but audio as well. There's certain
28:00
banks where to log into your app you have to
28:05
Say a password using your voice. It's gonna recognize
28:07
your words to let you in I think it was a journalist
28:10
that did an experiment. I wrote about it in one
28:12
of my articles he Used somebody else's voice,
28:16
but he was the voice cloner to basically use
28:19
the timber of his voice on the other person's
28:21
voice. And he was capable of entering his bank
28:24
account through those means. So it's very dangerous.
28:29
It's something that's really on the rise. And
28:31
it's something that we are really struggling
28:34
to try to figure out how to stop this. And that's
28:38
my next question. What can anybody do about this?
28:43
Well, there are software that can help. detect
28:47
deep fakes and many of them are great but for
28:51
example there was an illegal website I think
28:53
from the on the dark web that came out called
28:55
only fakes it doesn't exist anymore but what
28:59
it did it would generate realistic ID cards of
29:03
anybody it could give it a picture it would generate
29:06
perfect identity card and the deep fake software
29:10
was not capable of detecting that that was fake
29:12
it's really an issue you have to really Triple
29:16
check, quadruple check, everything. It takes
29:19
time. It's a matter of creating better software.
29:22
But then at the same time, you create better
29:24
software and criminals come out with something
29:26
new. It's a rough battle. It's like a constant
29:28
dog chasing the cat. Exactly. Like it's just
29:31
constant, constant, constant. Exactly. And it's
29:34
like you can't let up because it's kind of like
29:36
the whole concept of the minute you drive the
29:38
car off the lot, it depreciates. The minute your
29:41
software is new, it's not new anymore. Yeah,
29:44
basically, yes. Yeah. Wow. Crazy. Based on what
29:50
I just asked, like how are they doing anything?
29:52
I mean, are financial institutions and regulatory
29:55
bodies prepared for this new frontier of AI driven
29:59
crime? And I think earlier you talked about you
30:03
have to create the tools, but creating the tools
30:05
like creating the laws and passing the laws,
30:07
everything takes time. Yeah. And especially one
30:10
issue with AI is they, for example, but the EU
30:14
and the new AI Act, you don't want to create
30:18
too much regulation to the point where, you know,
30:21
you cannot innovate. And so, for example, the
30:24
AI Act categorizes different kinds of AI into
30:29
different risks. You have low risk, medium risk
30:31
and high risk. And high risk AIs are anything
30:34
that would be used for surveillance against people
30:37
or could physically harm a person, could emotionally
30:40
harm a person. But generative AI doesn't fit
30:44
within that category because of course you have
30:48
Chad GPT, DeepSeek, all of these are generative
30:52
AI models. And of course Europe wants to be competitive
30:56
against them. And so you cannot create too many
30:59
barriers to the point where it cannot be competitive
31:02
for the US or China or other countries. So that's
31:06
also like an issue with AI regulation in general.
31:10
with these new technologies. Do you feel like
31:13
countries, governments, corporations, is everybody
31:16
sort of sharing information? Like, you know,
31:19
you talked about the EU being competitive with
31:21
the US being competitive with China, but are
31:23
the tools that are being built in the different
31:25
parts of the world, is there any, and I don't
31:27
know if this speaks to regulation, is there sort
31:29
of any sort of unified thread where the tools
31:32
that you have in the EU? work with the tools
31:34
that we have in the US, work with the tools in
31:36
China. Is it pretty unified or is it something
31:39
where the EU creates something and they make
31:41
sure they let other countries know? Any regulations
31:44
that is created within the EU applies to any
31:48
company that wants to do business in the EU.
31:52
So yes, it definitely has repercussions outside.
31:56
of the EU as well. So that makes sense. And the
31:59
EU is often one of the first to kind of put forth
32:02
these kind of regulations. We had it with the
32:05
privacy, for example, GDPR, that was actually
32:08
quite inspiring to many other countries that
32:12
really took it as a basis to create also their
32:14
own privacy laws. What people expect, a lot of
32:18
different countries will begin using the AI Act
32:21
as a kind of basis. for their own loss whenever
32:24
that will happen. Yeah, but it makes total sense
32:26
with you're talking about in that regulation
32:29
to a point because government agencies are just
32:33
different than corporations in their ability
32:35
to innovate. I think about like any government
32:39
site and any forms you have to fill out, right?
32:42
It's very structured in a certain way because
32:46
it's a government agency versus a corporation
32:49
might have, they're going to have a lot more
32:51
leeway. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's the lack
32:54
of, in a way, structure that kind of, you know,
32:57
helps to create new things and innovate and like
33:01
sandbox, you know, you have full freedom to create
33:05
something. Of course, you're also going to create
33:08
something that's going to be used for illicit
33:10
purposes when that is the case. Right. For everything
33:13
that you create that's supposed to be a helpful
33:15
tool, you know, somebody is going to take it
33:17
and use it for illicit purposes. So. Let's pivot
33:22
again for a minute. National Geographic. Yeah.
33:25
I love that you want to get into National Geographic.
33:28
How cool is that? It's been a dream for a while.
33:31
I bet. What kind of stories would you tell on
33:34
a platform like that? Well, definitely historical
33:36
stories. There are a lot of stories that haven't
33:39
been touched upon that are really quite interesting,
33:42
but surprising, you know, the kind of stories
33:43
you read them and you're thinking, oh, you know,
33:45
this would make a great movie or a great... series
33:47
or something, something along the lines, I have
33:50
some ideas. I have to dig in deeper into them.
33:54
I have to research them a bit more to actually
33:56
see if there is a story actually. I don't really
33:59
know. But yeah, those kinds of stories, the more
34:01
surprising aspects of history. I know we were
34:05
talking when we were getting ready for the podcast
34:07
when we met, maybe we're going off into tangent
34:09
here, but you talked about animals on the black
34:12
market. Yeah, that's an article I'm working on
34:14
right now for Akim's Today. It's on a European
34:18
funded organization called Ecosolve. And what
34:21
they do is they use AI to try to find endangered
34:26
animals that are being sold on the black market.
34:29
So they draw up statistics, try to spot, you
34:31
know, from what areas are they being sold, what
34:34
platforms are being used, what markets, and then
34:38
they compile that information and try to disrupt
34:42
these markets. And they also try to call out
34:44
corruption within the politics of a country that
34:47
is making it easier for these markets to spring
34:50
up, but is making it easier for these endangered
34:53
animals to end up on these markets. Wow. It's
34:57
everywhere. You know, you're doing anti -money
35:01
laundering for financial, but it's everywhere.
35:04
Crime is crime is crime. It's literally everywhere,
35:06
even in places you could never imagine. I read
35:10
a few articles on online video games. Criminals
35:13
are using, like, just... normal online video
35:16
games, for example, Fortnite or Counter -Strike,
35:19
to launder money from stolen credit cards. Oh
35:22
my goodness. So it's really, it's absolutely,
35:25
sadly everywhere. Well, and then I think that
35:27
speaks to what you were saying earlier about
35:29
the need for people like you and sort of industry
35:32
that you're in, like tentacles, right? Staying
35:35
on top of every possible place where this could
35:38
be happening. That's amazing. So we're talking
35:42
about your very diverse skill set, right? Anti
35:44
-money laundering, storyteller, novelist. I heard
35:46
you say that the novel is coming out again, being
35:50
published again in April. So that's something
35:52
coming out. You have goals to get into National
35:55
Geographic. And I think you said you're still
35:57
writing for other magazines? Well, the thing
36:00
with National Geographic is they're very much
36:03
looking for seasoned writers, especially in the
36:06
kind of topics they publish. So my idea is really
36:09
kind of slowly build up. to get to Mashup One
36:12
Geographic, so publish more articles on history.
36:15
Last year I published one with history today.
36:18
Just keep doing that, keep expanding my portfolio
36:21
and slowly move my way out to hopefully, maybe
36:27
not, but hopefully getting something in Mashup
36:29
One Geographic. Yeah, that would be a real feather
36:31
in your cap, I think. Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure.
36:35
You've mentioned a few different places and...
36:38
Other than some of the ones you've mentioned,
36:40
you know, maybe finding Iron Shadow on Amazon,
36:43
where else can folks find your work? You can
36:46
find my work also on my website, so stefanocg
36:50
.com. Feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn.
36:55
I post a lot of my articles on there. I post
36:59
a lot of my ideas on there. I also have an Instagram.
37:02
Simply search for my name, you'll find me, and
37:05
I'll be posting little things on my book there
37:07
as well. That's more or less where you can find
37:10
me. Good. Awesome. Yeah, I'll be following along
37:13
to see when it comes out. That'll be great. Well,
37:16
that is all the time we have for today. Thank
37:19
you so much for being our guest and for being
37:21
here and telling your story. All of the money
37:24
laundering and all of the work and just staying
37:27
on top of that, that is fascinating. And there's
37:31
clearly... you're not going to be out of a job
37:33
ever. Serious job security here. I think so.
37:37
In what you're doing. So thank you so much for
37:39
sharing all of that. And again, really looking
37:42
forward to when the Iron Shadow comes out in
37:44
the spring so people can hear it. So thank you.
37:46
Thank you so much for having me. It was a real
37:48
pleasure. Thank you. And to our listeners. Whether
38:01
you hear us locally from the BTV studios in Bedford,
38:03
Massachusetts or across the globe on such podcast
38:06
channels as Spotify, Apple Podcasts or Amazon
38:09
Prime, thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed
38:12
this episode and we'll see you next time. Happy
38:15
storytelling.