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WoTS Tangents compilation: TSR & FOH · WoT Spoilers

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Times Spoilers podcast. Your hosts
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: are Seth Jacobson and Patrick Hyler.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Hi.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: I'm Seth and I'm Patrick.
• 0:22
  Speaker 4: Lady Special Part two, Lady Special Pot two.
• 0:27
  Speaker 5: Shall we all introduce ourselves?
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do that, including which continent you're on, because
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: that's important.
• 0:34
  Speaker 5: Why don't you guys go first? Americans?
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: Okay, a radio you go? Okay, cool, We'll start and
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: move our way east around the planet. That works. So
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Hi everyone, I am a radio head of the Brown
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: Ajia and frequent fact corrector of much annoyance on the
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: regular Watt Spoilers track. I'm taking a break from doing
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: this to do this from studying atmospheric science, and I'm
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: It's a currently three pm on the west coast of
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: North America right now.
• 1:04
  Speaker 6: I'm Kelsey and I'm on North America Central Time in Texas.
• 1:10
  Speaker 6: I have been on the podcast with Seth and Patrick
• 1:15
  Speaker 6: a couple times and then with a Radia which was
• 1:19
  Speaker 6: a while ago.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: Was that it those other things?
• 1:22
  Speaker 7: Okay?
• 1:22
  Speaker 5: Hi, I am Bambi. I am usually recording from Perth,
• 1:28
  Speaker 5: Western Australia, but due to circumstances, I'm actually in Northern
• 1:34
  Speaker 5: Ireland right now. In the UK. I was on for
• 1:41
  Speaker 5: an earlier chapter for the same book a couple months
• 1:46
  Speaker 5: ago and we had a blast. And then I pested
• 1:50
  Speaker 5: Seth to get on again for the Talions episode and
• 1:52
  Speaker 5: we got this together and I can't wait to get
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: into it.
• 1:55
  Speaker 8: Hi, I'm Meck. I'm in Australia. I'm currently sitting in
• 1:59
  Speaker 8: Bab's house while she is in Northern Ireland. I was
• 2:07
  Speaker 8: on the same two episodes, the Ruitian chapters. And it
• 2:12
  Speaker 8: is twenty past six am here and it's seven.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: Degrees so you're literally in tomorrow from where I'm setting.
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm in the future.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: She's coming at us from the future.
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: I am. I am recording from the future.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: How is it?
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: How is the future? Is it nice?
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: It's freezing?
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: I should have said it's it's coming up to twenty
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: past eleven pm, right, yeah, Saturday, it's not tomorrow yet.
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: With me, it's I'm actually pretty warm. It's like seven
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: degrees outside, but I'm.
• 2:42
  Speaker 6: Too seven degrees here as well. Well, you guys are
• 2:46
  Speaker 6: just starting winter.
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but I feel like it's come a bit early.
• 2:50
  Speaker 8: But then again, when I got on the plane last night,
• 2:53
  Speaker 8: it was still thirty four degrees Celsius. So I was
• 2:57
  Speaker 8: in Wow. Yeah, I was in northwestern Australia, so it's
• 3:00
  Speaker 8: still its dry season up there and it's still pretty warm.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: How was the trip, Yeah, pretty good.
• 3:05
  Speaker 8: We had some high winds in the morning, so we
• 3:08
  Speaker 8: couldn't really tell anything behind the boat.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: But we got most of our work done and I'm
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: back and that's it.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: I'm done.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: No more field work for me.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: Oh, you were doing field work. Nice.
• 3:19
  Speaker 5: A little bit of early bullshitting like excess, this is important,
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: but I've I've just had the book sitting beside me.
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: I've part of this book across the planet with me,
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: so I may as well read it. All right, So
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: we're here to do the Tangent episode for the Shadow
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: Rising fourth book, Will of Time. I think I can
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: speak four of us to say that it's our favorite
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: in the series. It's a pretty big cool interrupt me
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: if I'm speaking out of turn for any of you,
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: and I don't know. I thought it might be nice
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: to we chatted a little bit about this earlier to
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: kind of touch on a little bit of why we
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: like this one so much.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I'll go for us and we can
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: just kind of try to keep this west to east
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: powdern going for as we try to go around.
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so let's do it.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: This book is, oh man, it has so much happens
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: in this book. Like in many ways, it's it's like
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: I have the world because just so many different radical
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: things happen to our characters, so many character arcs go
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: in so many directions. I think it's a book where
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: we get a lot of like the female characters really
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: start coming into their own because they go off and
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: do their own separate arcs and start really learning a
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: lot of cool things. And then obviously it has one
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: of the best scenes in the entire Frickin' books, which
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: is the Pillars of ruin In. I mean, those are
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: just absolute, hands down, one of the highlights of the
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: entire series. So this is a book where there's a
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: lot of like the series coming into its own, as
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: like you strap in, like this ride is nowhere near
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: done yet. That's kind of how I feel about it.
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: So like a radio, this book to me feels like the.
• 5:02
  Speaker 6: First wheel of time. Like book, the characters are, you know,
• 5:09
  Speaker 6: starting to get into motion for their character arcs. And
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: we're going to touch on this later. The topic of identity.
• 5:18
  Speaker 6: But all the characters seem to finally start embracing their
• 5:22
  Speaker 6: identities and figuring out what it means for them to be,
• 5:25
  Speaker 6: you know, isoud Ie the dragony born Tavern whatever. Obviously
• 5:30
  Speaker 6: they're still growing pains, you know, especially with for example, Parent,
• 5:34
  Speaker 6: but you know everyone is in there in their arcs,
• 5:38
  Speaker 6: and then a lot of pivotal scenes happen, you know,
• 5:41
  Speaker 6: a lot of exciting, like you know, action scenes where
• 5:44
  Speaker 6: the characters are actually you know, being superheroes, like you
• 5:48
  Speaker 6: know Ninive and Mogideon, you know, having that fight and
• 5:52
  Speaker 6: she realizes I'm actually as powerful. I'm as powerful as
• 5:56
  Speaker 6: you are. And you know, of course Rand like going
• 5:59
  Speaker 6: through through you know, ruiny in and learning from the ideal.
• 6:04
  Speaker 6: Those are really big moments that stick with these characters
• 6:08
  Speaker 6: throughout the rest of the book. And so that's why
• 6:10
  Speaker 6: it's you know, the most action packed and also really
• 6:13
  Speaker 6: intense character development.
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah I'm not in.
• 6:18
  Speaker 8: I love saying, yeah, yeah, Well again, this is as
• 6:23
  Speaker 8: everyone my favorite book in the entire series as well.
• 6:26
  Speaker 8: And my copy is missing its front cover and numerous
• 6:31
  Speaker 8: pages throughout and as soon as I finished it in
• 6:36
  Speaker 8: my second read, like my read through, I stopped and
• 6:39
  Speaker 8: just started again straightaway.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: It's, yeah, definitely my favorite, and.
• 6:44
  Speaker 8: There's just so much going on, and for me, I
• 6:46
  Speaker 8: feel this book really separates itself in terms of writing styles,
• 6:51
  Speaker 8: starts to change the characters. They're you know, on this
• 6:54
  Speaker 8: cusp of the transformation.
• 6:56
  Speaker 9: You know.
• 6:56
  Speaker 8: The first book really set them up in the minds,
• 7:00
  Speaker 8: in our minds, you know, their identity, like this is
• 7:03
  Speaker 8: their background and this is who they believe that they are.
• 7:07
  Speaker 8: And the next two books kind of laid the grounds
• 7:10
  Speaker 8: for the for their transformation, and this one they're really
• 7:12
  Speaker 8: starting to come to to be aware that, you know,
• 7:16
  Speaker 8: they're starting to change and they you know, they.
• 7:19
  Speaker 5: Need to deal with this.
• 7:21
  Speaker 8: And yeah, it's got some of my favorite scenes in
• 7:25
  Speaker 8: this whole series, so the you know, the beginning of
• 7:28
  Speaker 8: the book, the Bubbles of Evil, definitely the e Wittian scenes,
• 7:33
  Speaker 8: but also some disappointing moments for me, namely, trollicks really
• 7:40
  Speaker 8: start to become disappointing, and I think that's why different
• 7:45
  Speaker 8: aspects that get introduced in this novel start to become
• 7:47
  Speaker 8: a bit more important. They introduce a bit more of
• 7:50
  Speaker 8: a you know, and like an unknown threat or that's
• 7:55
  Speaker 8: a bit bigger than the trollics.
• 7:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely, trollicks suffer from the escalation.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: That's really interesting that I never I hadn't really thought
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: about it that way in terms of the big the
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: big bads get better in a way, and the ones
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: we see it at the beginning, like the trolls and
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: the early attacks on Edmonsfield and the things that we
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: see in the first three books become kind of small
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: fry as everything kind of just scales up. Is that
• 8:26
  Speaker 5: what you mean?
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 8:28
  Speaker 8: But also like if you think too, like the you know,
• 8:31
  Speaker 8: the find like the battle in the Two Rivers, and
• 8:34
  Speaker 8: it's I felt like those chapter was quite short considering
• 8:40
  Speaker 8: how immense the threat had been built up throughout the book,
• 8:44
  Speaker 8: and how much trolks had been built up in the
• 8:46
  Speaker 8: you know, the first three books. And I guess after
• 8:48
  Speaker 8: that it's kind of cools.
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: That was a bit disappointing.
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't. Yeah, I thought that maybe
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: that was isn't that hasn't that got to do with
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: the fact that the trollick tap was switched off by
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: Loyal so to speak, like they were coming through that gateway.
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but even by.
• 9:09
  Speaker 8: The time he manages manages to get back and do that.
• 9:13
  Speaker 8: You know, there's already they still know that there's thousands
• 9:16
  Speaker 8: of trollics and they're up against you know, villagers.
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: Uh huh, I see what we're saying. Yeah, it's fair enough. Yeah,
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: they become less scary as things to move on. Actually,
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: just you talking about trollocks just reminded me. I was.
• 9:31
  Speaker 5: I found five minutes to have a bit of a
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: read of my paperback today and I noticed, so I've
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: got I think it's a UK edition paperback, and it's
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: it's got the What I like to think about is
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: the full painting cover art, and it's got them in
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: the waist and if you look really carefully, you can
• 9:53
  Speaker 5: see little trollics, little silhouetes to trollocks on the cover.
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys have that copy. I
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: only noticed at today.
• 10:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so that I think that that's sort of alluding
• 10:04
  Speaker 5: to what happens a Cold Rocks hold at the end.
• 10:09
  Speaker 5: So anyway, that's a cool little tidbit that I just
• 10:11
  Speaker 5: kind of noticed. But this is my favorite book in
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: the series. It's pretty much what you guys have said,
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: and you've all been much more articulate about this than
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: I will probably be tonight, but it's yeah, we see
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: everything really kick off and the increased reach of I
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: guess the shadow. And I'm sure we'll jump into this
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: in a minute anyway, But what I was looking at
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: was what I was kind of really interested in the
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: prophecies at the beginning and end of the book and
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: had a bit of a read of the one at
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: at the front of this one, which I won't read
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: the whole thing, but we can see and the title
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: we've got capital less shadow. The shadow is rising over
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: the series, sorry, over the land, and it all kind
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: of alludes to so it says, and here he shall
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: be born, born of the dawn, born of a maiden,
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: according to prophecy and all of this and this one
• 11:15
  Speaker 5: is attributed to commentaries on the Koreathon cycle Serene Chamel
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: Matara third age, and so I thought that was first
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: of all, it's cool to see the title of the book.
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: I didn't read the first line, but it's in the
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: first line the title of the book. In the opening prophecy.
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: Things are getting really serious now, Trollock's small fry, as
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: you kind of alluded to, Nicole and things, it's all
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: getting Yeah, scaled up, as you say, everything with the
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: identity of all of the main characters learning a lot
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: about themselves, testing their own limits, and developing. Really, we
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: see a lot of growth. That's my tangential meaning description
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: and why I like this book also, so I'm having
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: a look at my notes here as well. I just
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: want to say, I don't want to make too much
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: of a sense of loss of innocence that we see
• 12:13
  Speaker 5: as all these characters grow up. We you know, particularly
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: thinking about Parent's chapters when he goes back houring back
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: to the two rivers, back to the village, having seen
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: the world. I'm really empathizing with this country folk village
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: mentality and really warm village sort of atmosphere. But that
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: comes with a sort of not sort of, for lack
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: of a better word, mistrusted outsiders, because that's that's sort of
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: where I'm at this week. This is the citizen sitting
• 12:41
  Speaker 5: in the countryside. These are the people I'm talking to,
• 12:43
  Speaker 5: and then sort of the places that I am, So
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: I thought i'd throw that out there. I'm sort of
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: really empathizing with all of that sort of right now,
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: so it's a good time to talk about it.
• 12:54
  Speaker 8: Also with Parent you know, this is like the first
• 12:58
  Speaker 8: time where his plot in Tequila is fate should rather strongly.
• 13:03
  Speaker 8: And I actually really enjoy Parents' storyline in this book.
• 13:06
  Speaker 8: There I have moments where I really really love parents
• 13:11
  Speaker 8: storyline and his development, and yeah, in this book, that's
• 13:14
  Speaker 8: one of those moments for sure.
• 13:17
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 13:18
  Speaker 6: I also think it's the one time we get to
• 13:20
  Speaker 6: go back to the Two Rivers. And I think that's
• 13:23
  Speaker 6: so important to the series because the Two Rivers it's
• 13:28
  Speaker 6: almost like its own character, and Tam is there, and
• 13:32
  Speaker 6: that's why all these characters are able to be so
• 13:35
  Speaker 6: grounded and that stays with them throughout the series.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: And it's awesome that we get.
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: Parents eyes going back to the Two Rivers and seeing it,
• 13:43
  Speaker 6: you know, through the eyes of experience, seeing how small
• 13:46
  Speaker 6: it is, also seeing how he's changed in their perception
• 13:50
  Speaker 6: of him and his growth, and I think it's just,
• 13:53
  Speaker 6: I don't know, it's so heartwarming.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: I love homecoming scenes in books. I'm a sucker for them.
• 13:58
  Speaker 6: And I think, you know, this is like ideal parent
• 14:02
  Speaker 6: in the Wheel of Time, his Two Rivers arc, and
• 14:06
  Speaker 6: it's really awesome that he's able to go back to
• 14:09
  Speaker 6: the Two Rivers yeah.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: And it's also the section where he marries Fayel, and
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: it's really like the healthiest portion of their relationship. It's
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: when you really see like the best potential of what
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: they're I mean this and the start of when when
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: they get picked up again. I forget if it's the
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: next book or the book after that, but like them
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: in The Two Rivers is really like the maximum potential
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: they have, Like, she's an excellent, competent co leader. She's
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: pushing him into all these things, and she really does
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: a good job of downscaling to deal with village life
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: and yet also helping them upgrades. So it's a good
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: book to go back to and be like, even when
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Fayelle's being a total bitch and it's being a real problem,
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: like this is also possible with them. This book really
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: shows how great they can be together. Yeah.
• 14:58
  Speaker 6: Absolutely, I was going to say, I can't believe I
• 15:00
  Speaker 6: forgot that, because I actually included their vows into my
• 15:03
  Speaker 6: own wedding vows.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: Three weeks ago. Oh my god, so well, I I spy.
• 15:11
  Speaker 6: I took out the axe part and I took out
• 15:13
  Speaker 6: the I'll love you after I die because it's really
• 15:16
  Speaker 6: morbid and kind of contradicts the you know, legal marriage
• 15:21
  Speaker 6: vows and religious ones, but I also spliced it together
• 15:25
  Speaker 6: with like some more modern aspects.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I love that scene.
• 15:29
  Speaker 6: I think it's beautiful and like you're saying, it's the
• 15:32
  Speaker 6: perfect representation of, you know, their relationship at its healthiest,
• 15:37
  Speaker 6: and I'm.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: Pretty team Fiel.
• 15:39
  Speaker 6: You know, for the most part, they're both kind of dumb,
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: but they actually talk to each other. And I love
• 15:46
  Speaker 6: that scene where you know, she's telling him, you know,
• 15:51
  Speaker 6: about her backstory and he's telling her about you know,
• 15:55
  Speaker 6: his his wolf brothers, and it's perfect because it's one
• 15:59
  Speaker 6: of the times characters are actually frank with each other.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah it is.
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: After all of that bullshit between the two of them. Yeah,
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: yeah that was. And she does a damn better job
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: of downscaling her lifestyle than he does upscaling him. Yeah,
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: takes him takes him how long? As just a surface
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: level observation, of course, Yeah, I was really stoked. Yeah,
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: I'm so so cool that you were able to weave
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: this into your own life.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Kelsey's also, that's what's our next topic?
• 16:39
  Speaker 8: No, there's just so much that we heard go into
• 16:42
  Speaker 8: and I'm like, where are we going next?
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: Like I don't have notes. I'm just here to get
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: prompted and to flap my lips, like that's all I'm
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: here for.
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: Well, I've got a topic that I'll help you flapy lips.
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: Do you want to talk about some of the How
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: do I be sensed about this the corrections that we've
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: noticed from the last couple of episodes a radio.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is entirely me owning up to my
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: own mistake. But a while back, I was really excited
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: to give the geological definition of a moraine to the audience,
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: and I typed out half of it and hit enter,
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: and Seth read that into the recording. And so it's wrong.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: I told you, guys, everyone collectively through Seth, that a
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: moraine is a lake formed by a glacier. This is wrong.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Please scrub this fact from your minds. That is not, not,
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: not the definition of a moraine. A moraine is the
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: pile of sediment, rocks, dust, all of that that gets
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: scraped off of the valley floor and the mountain walls
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: and pushed ahead of the glacier and ends up building
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: what becomes dams that hold back lakes. Later, you know,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: once the glacier has melted. There's this big, like snowplow
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: pile of debris that is a moraine, not the lake
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: behind it or whatever is behind it. You can have
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: medial moraines that are like in the middle, you can
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: have them on the side called lateral moraines, or they
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: can be terminal moraines at the end. But I just
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: wanted to make it very clear that moraine is a
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: pile of unconsolidated ice shoved rubble, not a lake.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: I'm sure she would appreciate to know that.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: Honestly, I think it's a better analogy for her, just
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: being like I will just take whatever like I am,
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: literally everything not eroded, not rounded, not sort of just
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: literally the shit of mountains, and I can hold back
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: lakes and stuff, So I like it. That was a
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: very important thing for me to get out out there.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: So thank you for helping me make that correction.
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: All good, The record is not corrected. I was also
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: sort of referring to some of the as it's been
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: some chatter as well about for this by the book
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: that Igwayne's training.
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, just just just just did you want to
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: take that.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: One, well, just that it's easy to think that she
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: got trained by all the populations of channelers. She was
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: never trained by the wind Finders ever, she never had
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: any contact with the wind Finders. And I remember that
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: was one of the very first things that Seth and
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Patrick ever said on one of like the world building
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: podcasts like episodes at the very beginning. That made me
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: like yell at my computer and be like, I need
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: to get on this podcast and correct these guys, because
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: like they clearly need me.
• 19:33
  Speaker 7: That.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: It came up again recently where they were talking about
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: how she got trained by all of them and she didn't.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: She got the benefit of Elaine having trained with them,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: and Elaine came back and tried to teach her a bit,
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: but that was like an afternoon or something that is
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: not nearly on the level of what she got, like
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: from the Aeel for example, or even what she got
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: from the shan Chan.
• 19:52
  Speaker 8: Does she learn how to, you know, manipulate the weather
• 19:57
  Speaker 8: through the Aeel Because in the Fires of Heaven where
• 20:01
  Speaker 8: she and Aveenda start, they build a storm.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: And start bringing lightning down.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Is that her?
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: Is she the one that's exploding the earth?
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: I think that they take over the storm and they
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: tagged in the storm. Yes, yeah, that's right.
• 20:17
  Speaker 8: So I'm wondering if she's still got the benefit of
• 20:19
  Speaker 8: learning how to manipulate the weather, just not necessarily from
• 20:23
  Speaker 8: the seafolk, but from that.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know that the aeel I don't know that
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: the ae will ever show any propensity for weather manipulation
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: at all. I think that she I don't know where
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: she got that from, but it's before Elaine comes back
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: to her with less yet from the sea folk. So
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: maybe it's just like because it's kind of like something
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: that even the Iceid Eye like have a hint of
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: how to do that, and like, I mean it's just
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: stirring up thunder and lightning.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it just it.
• 20:51
  Speaker 8: Made me wonder though, because yeah, it does mention how not.
• 20:56
  Speaker 8: I mean a big focus of her learning from the
• 20:58
  Speaker 8: Iel is how to become a dream walker, and they
• 21:03
  Speaker 8: do mention all the time that not many of the of.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: The wise ones have the ability to channel.
• 21:10
  Speaker 8: So yeah, I was just curious about that particular scene,
• 21:15
  Speaker 8: Like she definitely learns how to manipulate the weather on
• 21:19
  Speaker 8: quite a like I would imagine a whole storm over
• 21:21
  Speaker 8: and over a city. It's quite a large scale for
• 21:24
  Speaker 8: somebody who's never had formal training in Yeah, yeah.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: We do see like Varren and Maureen both do weather
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: things in preceding books.
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And I want to say, yeah, I do
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: want to say that later on the wise ones end
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: up following parent around, end up doing similar kind of things,
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: like they won't participate in the fighting directly. Is that right?
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: This is like much later on when he's you know,
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: after fail is taken in things and he's making relationships
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: with the Shawn jam and things.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: I don't think they do weather. Then we also know
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: a book two we see them using the winds to
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: get their the Armorlins caravan gets up the river and
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: down the river again using the winds. So we know
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: that the Isidie have some sense of how weather works,
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: they just don't have it on this scale that the
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: sea folk do.
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. So, like Elaine was describing, what is it
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: wrist thick waves of air changing the currents and then
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: the water up by the sea folk, I mean it.
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: I think it is implied that it sort of all
• 22:33
  Speaker 5: happens off screen. But this is the same kind of
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: channeling lessons that Aviander receives. Agwayne sort of gets a
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: little bit of that as well, even though at the
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: time they believe her to be full Isidie. And you're
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: right in saying that she is there primarily to be
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: trained as a dream walker. But I always read that
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: as sort of that they were still sort of in
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: class together, so to speak, and still learning the Ayel
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: way of channeling and learning to channel, but we just
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: don't see it. That was always my understanding of the
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: way that particular scene that you're talking about, Nick came about.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, I don't know.
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: But she's also a really quick learner, are So even
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: if Avianda was taught taught that and a Grain wasn't
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: formally taught that, as soon as she saw her doings,
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: she would have picked that up, I'm guessing pretty quickly.
• 23:22
  Speaker 6: So yeah, yeah, that's I mean, the Sean chan know
• 23:26
  Speaker 6: how to you know, cause like lightning strikes. So it's
• 23:30
  Speaker 6: possible that she you know, and you know, we might
• 23:34
  Speaker 6: be going really deep into it, but you know, she's
• 23:37
  Speaker 6: manipulating the earth and calling lightning strikes. You know, maybe
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: she's only slately manipulating the weather with everything else that
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: she's doing.
• 23:46
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was.
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: I was about to the exact same thing, because we
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: know that she going specialization to call it, that is
• 23:55
  Speaker 5: in earth and that that's one of the element and
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: that is trained in particular while she's with the Seawan Chan.
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: And so it's been a little while since I listened
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: to Fires of Heaven. But were they only manipulating the
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: electrical storm or was she pulling up earth as well?
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: That's what I'm trying to remember.
• 24:14
  Speaker 8: I think maybe it was both, because she and Aveenda
• 24:18
  Speaker 8: were in that particular scene that they were channeling at
• 24:22
  Speaker 8: the same time, and then I think they ended up
• 24:25
  Speaker 8: like I think was it Alreadia said they were tag
• 24:27
  Speaker 8: teaming or was it Kelseya said that?
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, they spell each other. Yeah, yeah, I
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: don't think they do a lot of earth manipulation in
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: that battle. But again, it's been a long time since
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: I've gone.
• 24:37
  Speaker 8: Well, i think I've just gone the straight My mind
• 24:40
  Speaker 8: has gone straight through to earth manipulation because when earlier,
• 24:45
  Speaker 8: when they're making their way back to the tower with
• 24:48
  Speaker 8: Varren and they're confronted by the White Cloaks, and Grain's
• 24:53
  Speaker 8: first reaction is to explode the ground in front of
• 24:57
  Speaker 8: the White clothes.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes.
• 25:15
  Speaker 8: Did you want to mention something speaking of PTSD about
• 25:19
  Speaker 8: Julian's honey was there.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Ah, Yes, yes, there is a very big correction. She
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: is she does not go straight from being a pan
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: arc to being Julian's girlfriend. She gets captured by the
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: freaking shan Chan turned into Daco Vale, displayed in Amadesia
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: to Queen Morgaze as an example of what can happen
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: to a queen who does not bow down to the
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: shan Chan and is then rescued from sean Chan captivity.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: In Abu Dhar, when Matt is living in the palace
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: for a long time and he sees Julian sneaking around
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: and doesn't understand why he's up above stairs even though
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: he was beaten the day of. For that's because he's
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: starting to see Sarah as she has then called so
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: very very inaccurate to say she goes straight from being
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: pan arc slash queen essentially to being Julian's girlfriend. That is,
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: there is a giant amount of identity crisis and PTSD
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: and stuff that's happening there.
• 26:21
  Speaker 7: Seth.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: You may have done a correction in a later episode,
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: but that episode hasn't been released yet so I have
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: not heard it. So I'm just gonna harsh on you
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: a whole bunch forgetting that wrong repeatedly.
• 26:35
  Speaker 10: I love you.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: I can't keep up that sort of anger for that long.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: But it's just it's, you know, yelling at my phone
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: sort of situation.
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: Why do you think we wanted to be on this episode?
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: Were just this is all about picking up? Well, I'm kidding,
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: this is This isn't a corrections episode. This is a
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: tangent episode. So and I think we're fulfilling the tangent
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: aspect pretty pretty well already.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: This is just import corrections to be made.
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: You want to steal you?
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: Okay?
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: Well what else are we all about? What did you
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: guys think of the Abenders? So this is relevant to
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: me because I'm a little bit behind on the released episodes.
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: The Aviender's Aveander's bracelet theory. What were your thoughts that
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: that really stuck with me? So basically they were saying,
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: so rand is in cold works hold and he goes
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: and meets with the Maidens because he's saying that Aviander's
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: been really nice to me, and I want to say
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: thank you. I want to what have you got for
• 27:40
  Speaker 5: me to purchase from you? I want to I want
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: to acknowledge her kind of efforts and everything.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Is that where they go through the ceremony as well
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: as that, or is that later.
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: With with cups of tea? Yeah, I believe so. And
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: so anyway, and I forget which the name of the
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: maiden gives ended up giving him his ivory bracelet. Adeline
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: awesome because.
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: She gives it to him because she thinks that it's
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: a regard gift.
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, And that Patrick and Seth was sort of
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: talking about this theory that in the same way that
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: women put a bridal wreath at the feet of the
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: at the doorstep of the man who they want to marry,
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: this was like an analogy to that with Rand giving
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: Aviander a bracelet which was a wreath of rose and
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: thorns and was kind of kind of implying the same thing.
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: And so I thought that was really cool. And I
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: don't want to rehash the same stuff again because it's
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: already be talked about, but I just I guess I
• 28:47
  Speaker 5: was curious to see what you guys thought about that,
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: given this opportunity to talk about it.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: I loved it. It blew my mind. I'd never put
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: it together. And I sign on one hundred and ten
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: percent to that head canon.
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: Great, well, yeah, I'm yeah, thank you right now.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: I'm definitely on board with that.
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: Mm hmmm.
• 29:06
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: Cool. Because it took me a little while that I
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: was like, oh, because it just because it is usually
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: the other way around, like Gendaise, I was sort of like,
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: oh with the I really see it that way. But yeah,
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's just it just fits too well.
• 29:19
  Speaker 6: Like I don't think it's it's common in their you know, ritual,
• 29:23
  Speaker 6: but I think that the fact that he's purchasing this
• 29:26
  Speaker 6: regard gift and it's in the shape of a brider wreath,
• 29:29
  Speaker 6: and the wise ones are trying to get them together,
• 29:32
  Speaker 6: and then of course, you know, the maidens love it.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: Like, I think, it all just works out so perfectly,
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: and poor Randon's completely he's just making new traditions and
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: has no idea what he's doing at all.
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: Are you guys seeing Weaver?
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's true, it is true. She has a
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: horning personality as well as a thorny personality.
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: This is is very true.
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: The perfect actually the perfect forudiance, Oh my goodness.
• 30:01
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 30:03
  Speaker 6: And then and then it's so perfect because she is
• 30:05
  Speaker 6: so upset by the gift and he's like final I'll
• 30:08
  Speaker 6: take it back, and she says absolutely not.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: What's wrong with you? Yeah?
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So much about their early courtship like frustrates me
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: because there's so much of that like Downton Abbey sort
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: of like oh but you said the wrong thing and
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: glanced the wrong way. So like now there's like social
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: reasons why we have to pretend to be together. Like
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: it bothers me. But I also get that Aviganda's in
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: like a super super like tender conflicted place, like with
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: her entire identity. So it's like, all right, I'll forgive
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: you being a dumb teenager, I guess, I.
• 30:37
  Speaker 8: Mean, but that'll it's that all changes after they sleep
• 30:42
  Speaker 8: with each other. Hey, it's like, okay, we'll get married now.
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: And she's like you and then that's it, I know,
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: jumping ahead, but like she just I love how much
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: she tastes him. After that, she just like, I'm just
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: gonna hang around.
• 30:59
  Speaker 8: And you know, she makes the point of just checking
• 31:05
  Speaker 8: him out as he's getting dressed, just every time, and
• 31:08
  Speaker 8: he's still so uncomfortable.
• 31:10
  Speaker 11: Yeah.
• 31:11
  Speaker 6: I think a radio that it works because I get
• 31:15
  Speaker 6: what you're saying, but I think it works because of
• 31:17
  Speaker 6: their personalities and their upbringing because it's so completely different.
• 31:24
  Speaker 6: And she's got this massive stubborn strength, but I'd argue
• 31:28
  Speaker 6: is even worse than his. So it's it's really not
• 31:31
  Speaker 6: so much that their like being polite, it's that they're
• 31:34
  Speaker 6: so freaking stubborn and man is clueless and she's upset
• 31:38
  Speaker 6: and it causes this weirdness.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. And a big part of her final
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: conclusion coming into being a wise one and even going
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: through the sister ceremony with Elaine, is learning to not
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: think so much about what other people think of her
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: and not let other people's opinions drive her decisions. So
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: it really fits for setting her up as that character
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: in these scenes, Like it totally works. It just makes
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: me want to throttle her.
• 32:02
  Speaker 9: And I like that.
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: I like that, And you know, when you look at
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: her whole story arc she you're right, she has to
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: learn to let go out of some of that pride,
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: and it's, you know, in the way these books are written,
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: it it's never an accident when certain phrases are repeated
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: over and over again, and you talk about the the
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: almost like the overpride of the maidens in adhering too,
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: and she has to learn how to be a little
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: bit more diplomatic and political, not political, diplomatic and flexible
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: with herself with that, even right up to she takes
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: so long to pass the final accept Apprentice test to
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: just you know, to tell the other wise ones I
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: think I'm ready now, because she's like, I'm working hard,
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: I gotta work harder, and they end up I just
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: I love that stumping way ahead, but I love that.
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: That's that's one of my favorite scenes with her, and
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: it's cruel to her, but just how it takes her
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: so long and when they realize and it's it's good memory.
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: So it's purely through frustration in the end where she's like,
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: I'm done with you, guys, I got stuff to do. Basically,
• 33:12
  Speaker 5: it was one now and they're like, you get it,
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: you know.
• 33:16
  Speaker 9: I love that.
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: I love that, And it's just it's just far enough
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: down the series from when Iguaine does it and Gwain
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: does it by accident as well, and they're like you
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: get it, and she's like what, yeah, shit, okay, awesome,
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: and and actually like I didn't I didn't know doubt
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: all of the similarities. But I think it was when
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: I was preparing for the Crystal Pillars episode with Nick
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: that I started to notice a whole lot of parallel
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: between this book and Towers at Midnight particularly. Yeah, and
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: that's probably my second paper book in the series. Just
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: in terms of well, the obvious one is we get
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: too rudy in scenes in both of them, one through
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: Round's eyes obviously going back, and the second one when
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: Abienda goes through and we see the future. And there's
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: some other little things that I just I should have
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: noted down. But do you have you guys noticed any
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: parallels like that yourselves between this book and others or
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: other others in the series. And in terms of maybe
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: repeated for sair, repeated themes, that's probably a little bit
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: too vague, but anything like that. Do you know what
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: I'm saying, I just not make any sense.
• 34:31
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I get what you're saying, but I'm yeah,
• 34:35
  Speaker 8: I'm only part way halfway through my second read through,
• 34:38
  Speaker 8: so I think it would take me a bit longer
• 34:40
  Speaker 8: to get there. I think I still think of this
• 34:44
  Speaker 8: book as how you know, it's different it is to
• 34:48
  Speaker 8: the first three, rather than thinking of in similarities to
• 34:52
  Speaker 8: any of the others.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know what you're saying.
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: Though, because there are a lot of parallels in the
• 34:58
  Speaker 6: Wheel of Time are loves them.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: But that's certainly something I'm going to look for on
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: my next read through. Yeah, I hadn't really really thought
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: of that particularly before, Like I mean, they're just all
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: this big slurry to me, I don't really see the
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: books as That's a really interesting point and definitely, like
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: in this hindsight, you can see, like so many of
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: those conclusions that we get in the last four books
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: are being very very clearly set up in this book.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: So that's definitely something to look out for and pay
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: attention to, Like how does this mirror the end of
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: this struggle for the character, like the beginning and the
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: end of that struggle, Like maybe they have a lot
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: of parallels and we just haven't necessarily been noticing because
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: there's like eight books in between.
• 35:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's that's part of it as well.
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: And it's been a little bit of chatter in the
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: discord lightly in the Discord Server that character read throughs.
• 35:56
  Speaker 5: Have you ever done a character read through.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: With as an audio book listener. I can't, really, but
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: I am tempted by the idea for sure. As I
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: slowly accumulate my paperbacks like just their POV.
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you can use like tav Allan library website with
• 36:15
  Speaker 5: all the chapter summaries. It tells you the point of
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: view of that chapter and and the characters in that chapter.
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: And I'm sure there's a better resource for this particular purpose.
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: But yeah, you can go through and read through all
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: of Perrien, for instance, all of Thayil, all of all
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: of Rand is probably most of the series, certainly most
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: of Anyway all.
• 36:38
  Speaker 8: I hate that idea, but I guess it's hard for
• 36:41
  Speaker 8: me to really think about it in terms of just
• 36:43
  Speaker 8: separating the characters, because I mean, for particularly for Rand,
• 36:48
  Speaker 8: and especially in this book, and he's talking about you know,
• 36:52
  Speaker 8: he's starting to think about each of the other characters
• 36:55
  Speaker 8: and how he's going to use them. But if he
• 36:57
  Speaker 8: actually really think about how that is, they influence each
• 37:02
  Speaker 8: other so much and he has to learn a lot
• 37:05
  Speaker 8: from the other characters, and it's interesting having those contrasting
• 37:10
  Speaker 8: perceptions and being able to read them side by side.
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: Rather than individually.
• 37:15
  Speaker 8: So I don't know it'd be different to read through
• 37:20
  Speaker 8: that do a character read through.
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: But yeah, it would be. It would also be I
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: don't know, it would just be different.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: I was just gonna say I like the idea, but
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: I would never do it.
• 37:35
  Speaker 6: Well, I guess it's more like, I think it'd be
• 37:39
  Speaker 6: cool if you if you were wanting to like explore
• 37:43
  Speaker 6: some aspects of a character for a given reason. But
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: there's so many yeah, Like, so many of Rand's moments
• 37:53
  Speaker 6: that I love are in my knees eyes it's for
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: you know, just example, and I feel that you lose
• 38:01
  Speaker 6: all that there and there's no way you would you know,
• 38:05
  Speaker 6: at that point you might as well just read the
• 38:06
  Speaker 6: whole series as is if you're like trying to find
• 38:09
  Speaker 6: all those moments. So yeah, like, for example, you know
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: Rand's perspective getting ahead of myself when in front of
• 38:17
  Speaker 6: Ninive and Land when he's like, I love all of you,
• 38:20
  Speaker 6: let's bond, And it's through I think Rand's perspective, And
• 38:26
  Speaker 6: I really love how he You get nine Eves and
• 38:30
  Speaker 6: Land's reactions at the same time as everyone else's reactions,
• 38:33
  Speaker 6: and it's brilliant and perfect. But you get so much
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: of each of the characters through his eyes in that scene.
• 38:40
  Speaker 6: And that's why I love the Wheel of Time is
• 38:42
  Speaker 6: you get all those different different stories.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love the unreliable narrator thing that RJ just
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: constantly hits you over the head with. It's so much fun.
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, yeah. I think I think I'm coming up
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: back around to the same perspective, like just that whole
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: idea that you see so much from other characters points
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: of view. I don't think I've got to have mentioned
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: this last time, but I really love and we see
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: a bit of it in this one, and I think
• 39:13
  Speaker 5: more so in Fires of Heaven, speaking of the sort
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: of unreliable narrator point of view, when one character sort
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: of talks about something's happening to them and it's like,
• 39:24
  Speaker 5: it's never this hard for characters and stories.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: It's such a football.
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: And I love it because it's like, wait a second, Yeah,
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: I'm reading a book in a story as a character
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: in a story, so what's like, what's real? You know?
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: I just I love that. So it's so clever and
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: and that kind of like ties in yeah, as you say,
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: with the expert use of both point of view and
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: dramatic irony, because half the time, like half the characters
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: who should be talking to one another just don't talk
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: to one another. And I know that's something that really
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: frustrates some people, you know, talk about Moraine like, just
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: just talk to them. Just tell the boy, like at
• 40:08
  Speaker 5: the beginning of the story, just tell them what's going on,
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: tell them your planned and I'm sure it'll be fine.
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: They'll trust you. I actually really enjoy that as a
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: plot device because it you know, as a reader, it
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: sort of propels the story for it and he kind
• 40:22
  Speaker 5: of just like, well, how is this going to work out?
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: And I know this information, but the character doesn't. And
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: sort of like another example of that for me is
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: Seven Bulwark with Peren, and Peren kind of figures it
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: out in the end he's not, and well, Fayl knows
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: almost immediately because fail is perceptive. It's knowing that he's
• 40:41
  Speaker 5: a spy, and then you know, doesn't let that on
• 40:44
  Speaker 5: too paren at first. Things like that. I really enjoy
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: that the way this is written.
• 40:50
  Speaker 6: And that's what makes reread throughs, second you know, second
• 40:54
  Speaker 6: read throughs that much more enjoyable, because, on the one hand,
• 40:58
  Speaker 6: Moraine not telling them things, it's absolutely a plot device.
• 41:01
  Speaker 6: On the other hand, when you read New Spring and
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: you read all fifteen series and you come back and
• 41:07
  Speaker 6: you learn about Isadai and the entire world that she's in.
• 41:14
  Speaker 6: You know, Kyrie in politics, you know the black Aja
• 41:18
  Speaker 6: sneaking behind the scenes. You realize, oh, man, she has
• 41:23
  Speaker 6: such an ingrained fear that she can't just come out
• 41:26
  Speaker 6: right and say this. But you also understand the two
• 41:28
  Speaker 6: rivers perspective, which is people are blunt and straight with you,
• 41:33
  Speaker 6: and it's it's sadly ironic, but at the same time
• 41:37
  Speaker 6: it's also a plot device.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: But it's brilliant because once you learn the backstory, it
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: all makes sense.
• 41:42
  Speaker 6: It's internally consistent each of the character's behaviors. And I
• 41:48
  Speaker 6: think that's just what's so satisfying in general about the
• 41:51
  Speaker 6: series and what can be you know, not satisfying about
• 41:55
  Speaker 6: different fantasy series that kind of go haywire, is that
• 41:59
  Speaker 6: the characters are are not acting internally consistent. And I
• 42:02
  Speaker 6: think we see that throughout, not always, but but almost consistently.
• 42:07
  Speaker 6: There's always a reason why the characters are doing a
• 42:11
  Speaker 6: specific thing while they're that they're doing, like you don't
• 42:14
  Speaker 6: have to like it, but it's very much you know
• 42:17
  Speaker 6: who they are.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, That's one of the things that I think is
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: really valuable about the slog is that it's books on
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: books on books of giving you an exploration into how
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: the characters see the world, and like, on the one hand,
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: they're not really doing a lot, but on the other hand,
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: you're getting so much more of an idea of why
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: they do what they do, and that really comes in
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: handy on your you know, tenth plus reread, you're like,
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: why did you say that one thing? Oh wait, yeah, right, okay,
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It helps, I think make the slog
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: less sloggy once you realize that that's really the point. Yeah, absolutely,
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: except for Gowen, as Weaver says, because Gowain doesn't have reasons.
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: Gowain just has impulses.
• 42:57
  Speaker 6: I would say he probably is the most inconsistent character.
• 43:03
  Speaker 8: Well, yeah, I remember on the more and more that
• 43:06
  Speaker 8: I've read into Godwin, the more and more I just
• 43:09
  Speaker 8: continue thinking about him. That just the way that he's
• 43:13
  Speaker 8: explained in my mind is Jordan just changed his mind
• 43:16
  Speaker 8: halfway through.
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: That's the only way I can explain him now and
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: not get mad about it.
• 43:22
  Speaker 6: I yeah, yeah, I think that there's definitely justifications for
• 43:26
  Speaker 6: a lot of what he does, but it's it's so
• 43:30
  Speaker 6: extreme that it's to the point that yeah, there's definitely
• 43:33
  Speaker 6: some like you know, writing issues with him, albeit like
• 43:38
  Speaker 6: it's not I don't consider it to be major, but
• 43:42
  Speaker 6: killing Warders is pretty extreme and then changing your mind
• 43:45
  Speaker 6: about which side you're on, Like that's it's pretty crazy.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which that happens in this book. This book is
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: the beginning of Gowan's character arc going in directions that
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: literally nobody wants them to go in. Like I just
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: listened to the Spoilers episode going over that chapter like yesterday,
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: and it's just like, oh, man, Like if he hadn't,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: everything would have been different. If Gowan had made a
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: different choice that day, everything would have been different. This
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: is the beginning of Angry as we.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Have done, we have Yeah, I don't know.
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: I whenever there's any kind of inkling of a plot
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: hole or writing issue, I straightway want to find some
• 44:41
  Speaker 5: way of feeling that and saying no, no, no, no.
• 44:44
  Speaker 5: Robert Jordan had a plan. He had a plan for
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: all these characters. Surely, like he did not make any
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: mistakes as far as I'm concerned. Yes, my head may
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: maybe deeply in the sand on that, but.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: And so I don't know.
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: It was a little while before I know the guy
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: has talked about this in terms of compulsion on Gowan
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: or I was wondering. I think it was a little
• 45:09
  Speaker 5: while ago before by second proper read through, and I
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: wasn't thinking about the water sleighing scene in this book.
• 45:17
  Speaker 5: I was more sort of thinking about later on whether
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: or not he has any interactions with pad An fame
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: and he gets any of that taint. But I kind
• 45:27
  Speaker 5: of fall on the side that maybe he was unduly
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: influenced a little bit. But as as some of the
• 45:34
  Speaker 5: chatter in the series Channel has sort of discussed, some
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: people seem to think that that is a little bit
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: too easy, too easy of an explanation, if an explanation exists,
• 45:48
  Speaker 5: and that it's more of an issue of him having
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: to choose his identity for the first time and having
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: a real, actual crisis and just freezing up and maybe
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: making the wrong choice at that time, and then through
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: this un reasonable sense of duty, unhealthy sense of duty,
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: just following that through to the nth degree and saying
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: it made my choice, and then, as we know later
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: on in the series, that constantly eats away at him
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: and he still can't do Obviously, like the whole thing
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: with the Gwain is maybe a slightly different thing, but
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: that's where that's where I fall on that particular issue
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: with going And maybe this is a good segway to
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: jump into a bit more of a discussion about what
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: you guys think of the identity arcs in the store.
• 46:34
  Speaker 12: In this book.
• 46:35
  Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well just quickly, I want to did
• 46:38
  Speaker 8: want to bring it back to the point of view
• 46:41
  Speaker 8: discussion that we were having before, and it does tie
• 46:43
  Speaker 8: into this whole identity young but I think for the
• 46:47
  Speaker 8: first time in this book, we're not having chapters or
• 46:52
  Speaker 8: clearly defined sections within a chapter where it's coming strictly
• 46:57
  Speaker 8: from one character's point of view, And he's starting to
• 46:59
  Speaker 8: change his writing style in that it's changing point of
• 47:05
  Speaker 8: view from the characters, like within a chapter or within
• 47:09
  Speaker 8: a paragraph, and it's just I feel like that's so
• 47:13
  Speaker 8: different to how he writes the first three books. But
• 47:17
  Speaker 8: it's also perfectly timed because it's well, it's refreshing. This
• 47:22
  Speaker 8: is you know, the next the longest book compared to
• 47:26
  Speaker 8: the first three, but also it's suitable for where the
• 47:31
  Speaker 8: characters are with their development in terms of their identity,
• 47:35
  Speaker 8: so being able to see different point points of view
• 47:39
  Speaker 8: and how they shift and change between each of the characters.
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's so meta.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: It's very matter, but I like it.
• 47:49
  Speaker 6: Kind of getting back to go in an identity and
• 47:53
  Speaker 6: you know, theories of compulsion. I really like those theories
• 47:58
  Speaker 6: in general because they think I think that it can
• 48:01
  Speaker 6: explain a lot of what is happening. And regards to Godwin,
• 48:06
  Speaker 6: I think I disagree on that because I think he's
• 48:09
  Speaker 6: more interesting as someone who doesn't know what he's doing.
• 48:13
  Speaker 6: And he does have an identity crisis in this book
• 48:16
  Speaker 6: because he's always been you know, like second tier to
• 48:20
  Speaker 6: the Queen of Ander and also her protector, so he
• 48:23
  Speaker 6: has a position of honor and power, but also he's
• 48:28
  Speaker 6: a little bit he doesn't really have control over his
• 48:31
  Speaker 6: own life in the same way that like any monarch
• 48:34
  Speaker 6: I guess has. And I think his saving grace is
• 48:38
  Speaker 6: that he ends up saving Egwayinne and without her, you know,
• 48:42
  Speaker 6: he did make the right choice to protect her while
• 48:45
  Speaker 6: she's in the dream world, and so sometimes, like I
• 48:47
  Speaker 6: think that's a brilliant thing that he does, because sometimes
• 48:52
  Speaker 6: he is right, but most of the time he's also wrong.
• 48:55
  Speaker 6: And part of that is because while a lot of
• 48:58
  Speaker 6: the other characters are able to find out who they
• 49:02
  Speaker 6: are and act accordingly, he never really gets there. Even
• 49:07
  Speaker 6: when he's Gwaine's warder and husband, he doesn't really quite
• 49:11
  Speaker 6: know what that means either. And all the Yeah, so,
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: especially in this book, we see a lot of the
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: characters except who they are and at that point, like
• 49:23
  Speaker 6: they're fully committed to that even though they have the struggle,
• 49:27
  Speaker 6: you know, they still get there. Like Land in this book,
• 49:31
  Speaker 6: he's always been, you know, going to fight the Shadow,
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: die for the Shadow, and be Moraine's warder on this mission. Well,
• 49:38
  Speaker 6: this book, he kind of accepts that that's that's still
• 49:42
  Speaker 6: his number one, but he also is equally committed to
• 49:45
  Speaker 6: Ninive and he has to deal with that, like that's
• 49:48
  Speaker 6: a new aspect of his identity they didn't have before.
• 49:52
  Speaker 6: And Moraine in the same way, she has this mission
• 49:55
  Speaker 6: and she has a plan, but the plan is not
• 49:59
  Speaker 6: really always is going, you know, according to her vision,
• 50:05
  Speaker 6: and she has.
• 50:06
  Speaker 7: To deal with that.
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: She has to deal with the fact that she is
• 50:09
  Speaker 6: not going to be maybe always in the picture or
• 50:12
  Speaker 6: that random these boys are even going to listen to
• 50:14
  Speaker 6: her at all, which is you know, most of the
• 50:17
  Speaker 6: time they don't.
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we see a lot more of speak
• 50:23
  Speaker 5: thinking of Mauren in particular, we see a lot more
• 50:26
  Speaker 5: of that understanding settle in for her. But I'm thinking
• 50:30
  Speaker 5: particular of the ways she decides to manage Rand in
• 50:34
  Speaker 5: the next book, if memory serves, she's that's when she
• 50:38
  Speaker 5: has the conversation where she's like, Okay, look, she's about
• 50:41
  Speaker 5: to get really real. I will do whatever you tell
• 50:44
  Speaker 5: me to do, just don't kick me out.
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, she's starting.
• 50:48
  Speaker 8: Yeah, well, she's starting to get a little bit desperate
• 50:50
  Speaker 8: with him at that point, because as soon as they
• 50:54
  Speaker 8: begin where they leave the waist, she's like, right, like,
• 50:57
  Speaker 8: I'm not going to be here so very much longer.
• 51:00
  Speaker 8: I need to, like, I need to talk to you.
• 51:03
  Speaker 8: And I think that's why she kind of pesses him
• 51:06
  Speaker 8: a little bit or quite a bit in the way
• 51:08
  Speaker 8: she's like, what are your plans?
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: What are you moving next? Because I need to know
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: something that I can plan or you know, you know.
• 51:17
  Speaker 5: I'm laughing because that's exactly what she did to Random. Yes,
• 51:22
  Speaker 5: it's like the tables are turned. You know, you still know,
• 51:26
  Speaker 5: you still know a lot more about the world and everything.
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: But you know, I think, is that is that something
• 51:32
  Speaker 5: that we get from Mone's perspective at any point, any
• 51:34
  Speaker 5: sort of like smug little self talk where he is like,
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: you know, now I'm going to be the one withholding
• 51:40
  Speaker 5: information from you. How do you like it?
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: I think he does, Yeah, he does.
• 51:45
  Speaker 6: It's so frustrating because I love them both so much
• 51:48
  Speaker 6: and I'm like, why are you Why are you doing
• 51:50
  Speaker 6: this to each other right?
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: Why it might be such excellent, amazing partners making this
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: thing happen, and instead they're just constantly sabotaging each other's
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: and we don't get that in the final hour.
• 52:04
  Speaker 8: Yeah, he does kind of have thoughts though, I think
• 52:07
  Speaker 8: later where Marine's not around and he's like, oh, Marine's
• 52:13
  Speaker 8: advice was actually kind of useful, but of course he
• 52:17
  Speaker 8: doesn't tell her that.
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he comes to realize that her motivations were way
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: more pure and straightforward than like he ever gave her
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: credit for when she was around.
• 52:26
  Speaker 5: It's actually a really good insight.
• 52:28
  Speaker 6: On the other hand, if he had been more submissive
• 52:32
  Speaker 6: and took all her advice, then everything would have gone
• 52:35
  Speaker 6: to shit.
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, never would have gone to the waist. Marine had
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: no freaking plans for the ieal or the waist or anything.
• 52:42
  Speaker 6: And tying back to identity, that's so important for rand.
• 52:47
  Speaker 6: I mean, maybe I would argue the most important aspect
• 52:51
  Speaker 6: in his you know, accomplishment of winning is that he
• 52:57
  Speaker 6: was able to find the Aeal, learn about his history,
• 53:00
  Speaker 6: and accept that he is you know, their leader and
• 53:05
  Speaker 6: is fulfilling these prophecies that he is, you know, heir
• 53:10
  Speaker 6: to the and or throne, but also you know, descended
• 53:14
  Speaker 6: from the Ael down from the age of Legends.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: At the same time, he learns later not.
• 53:21
  Speaker 6: Necessarily in this book that it doesn't change his relationship
• 53:26
  Speaker 6: with Tam either, Like he's still one hundred percent TAM's son,
• 53:30
  Speaker 6: he's his father. But it's also important that he accept
• 53:36
  Speaker 6: his biological history.
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: And I think that that's a crucial.
• 53:41
  Speaker 6: Moment for him and are just path for him in
• 53:44
  Speaker 6: this book starting in this book, Yeah.
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: Because this is the book where he's really getting his roots,
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: like super uprooted, because he's being handed this this other
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: version of his history that you know, replaces. He knows
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: Tam isn't his father, and so there's this whole and
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: then this whole Iel history like comes and tries to
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: fill it, and he's like struggling with that, and it's.
• 54:05
  Speaker 6: All a matter of his perception because he thinks, you know,
• 54:10
  Speaker 6: it's shocking. It's understandably shocking. He feels like, you know,
• 54:14
  Speaker 6: he's been lied to, and then he accepts that, you know,
• 54:19
  Speaker 6: it doesn't change anything about his life or relationships in
• 54:24
  Speaker 6: the ways that like it matters, but it also.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know how to articulate it matters and it
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: doesn't matter.
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I think he never he never stops
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: loving Tam as his father in spite of the new information,
• 54:41
  Speaker 5: and he sort of leaves, really, he never really gets
• 54:43
  Speaker 5: to have a conversation with him about it until the
• 54:45
  Speaker 5: very end, after he's sort of changed quite a lot.
• 54:49
  Speaker 5: And that's that's the saying that I cannot wait for love.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: It's such a tarious hand and.
• 54:55
  Speaker 5: It's it's so tumultuous, isn't it, because like they're you know,
• 54:59
  Speaker 5: Tam meets him and he nearly kills him, and he
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: runs away, and then we've got fins of gold if
• 55:04
  Speaker 5: I remember correctly.
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Tam sort of witnesses the transition between Ultimate Darth
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: Rand from the beginning of God. Tam is that catalyst.
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: And I think it's fitting that he's there as his
• 55:14
  Speaker 5: father at that time, isn't it sort of sort of
• 55:17
  Speaker 5: something in there Am being a parent and raising anyway.
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: So I think at the end of this book, I
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: don't think that Rand knows I fully understand his andor
• 55:27
  Speaker 5: and parenting at this point because he doesn't. He doesn't know.
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he doesn't get that until he talks with Dalon
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: in Camlin, which is after.
• 55:36
  Speaker 5: He next book, And so that happens a lot is
• 55:39
  Speaker 5: that book six, Book six, Lord of Chaos, I believe,
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: And they have a hilarious conversation about wait a second,
• 55:46
  Speaker 5: how related are we between me and alone?
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 55:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the guys will come to it when they come
• 55:55
  Speaker 5: to it. But that's such a well balanced scene in
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: terms of some serious information, well building, history, and humor
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: all in all in one in one.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that is reminding us. That also is like that
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: question of how related is he to Aveander. He might
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: be more related to Aveanda than he is to Elaine. Like,
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: if you're really.
• 56:14
  Speaker 5: Thinking about it, I was the stink. I was a
• 56:16
  Speaker 5: stink to that episode when they when they were recording
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: it all afterwards, and that was like a mind blowing
• 56:21
  Speaker 5: moment for me. I was like, what totally feel the same?
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I had never thought of that. But with the
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: closed pool of the gene closed gene pool of the
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: of the ael. That's way more likely than with the
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: end or a noble to nobility. I have words, don't.
• 56:35
  Speaker 5: Worry about your word. We know what you mean.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 56:40
  Speaker 5: I think. I think there's something that will never my
• 56:42
  Speaker 5: good just never know the answer to.
• 56:44
  Speaker 6: They're in different steps though, Right do we know what
• 56:47
  Speaker 6: scept his father was in.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 56:51
  Speaker 5: I'm going to do it.
• 56:52
  Speaker 7: Hold on.
• 56:53
  Speaker 5: That's where I keep talking about, because we've got let's
• 56:55
  Speaker 5: just go a real time follow up. I was because
• 56:57
  Speaker 5: I was going to say, I was going to say
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: to Nick, my copy of The Companion is in the
• 57:01
  Speaker 5: bookshop in the bedroom. Yeah, the one bought it out
• 57:04
  Speaker 5: for me earlier. Yeah, oh did he? Oh great? Cool?
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well the wiki doesn't have the wiki doesn't have
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: his hisce.
• 57:12
  Speaker 5: It just has this pretty sure the Companion has a memory.
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: I don't have my Companion with me, and I am
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: ensconced in my closet of cables.
• 57:21
  Speaker 5: And NICs in front of her. I believe we have
• 57:23
  Speaker 5: to know the answer at this point. I'm invested in
• 57:26
  Speaker 5: the answer.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I mean it ties with our theme of
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: identity that we're trying to revolve around, Like.
• 57:32
  Speaker 6: We're trying to make sure they're not first cousins, but
• 57:34
  Speaker 6: if they are, it's still better than them being twins
• 57:37
  Speaker 6: or aunt nephew.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: Which is our bard no argument there.
• 57:45
  Speaker 8: So. So Aveander is nine Valley sept of the tartar
• 57:52
  Speaker 8: Iu and Genuine is a man of the Iron Mountain
• 57:58
  Speaker 8: Sept of the tar dard I. So the same same clan,
• 58:03
  Speaker 8: different same clan difference. Okay, so they're probably not.
• 58:08
  Speaker 6: There's still a chance, but let's just say for the
• 58:11
  Speaker 6: record that they're definitely not closely related.
• 58:15
  Speaker 5: I'm satisfied.
• 58:16
  Speaker 8: Yeah, let's hope that Tea Grain bought in enough, you know,
• 58:20
  Speaker 8: like genetics. That's how I think about John and Denaris, Like, oh,
• 58:32
  Speaker 8: maybe the Stark's borting enough genetic diversity that it's kind
• 58:35
  Speaker 8: of okay.
• 58:38
  Speaker 6: Well, she's fine because she was like planning on mirroring
• 58:42
  Speaker 6: her brother, So this is like, wow, this is great.
• 58:46
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I never I never thought that would bother
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: her at all. Like she's not anywhere. We can't talk
• 58:51
  Speaker 5: about it, we can't. We can't talk about it so far. Yeah,
• 58:54
  Speaker 5: I haven't seen it, no worries. I'm not going to
• 58:58
  Speaker 5: get to see it until next week. You really actually wow, no,
• 59:02
  Speaker 5: I know, Oh, let's I can strain it.
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: What other identities do we want to talk about? Ninive?
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: She she goes through some stuff.
• 59:11
  Speaker 8: She's supper struggling with the fact that she is no
• 59:17
  Speaker 8: longer the wisdom of Emmonsfield.
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: And she can't really tell the grain what to do anymore.
• 59:23
  Speaker 5: All the boys, Yeah, can I just say I love
• 59:27
  Speaker 5: more and more Ninive and Elaine sort of almost like
• 59:32
  Speaker 5: like buddy cop kind of chemistries. Their chemistry is really good.
• 59:36
  Speaker 5: I forgot just how much time they spend together.
• 59:38
  Speaker 6: I was just saying it's awesome, and they get so
• 59:41
  Speaker 6: mad about it, but they don't realize how well you
• 59:45
  Speaker 6: hitting together.
• 59:46
  Speaker 8: And I love how the other characters, like what's the
• 59:50
  Speaker 8: Aliana's name, Yeah, Domage Baiale, Domond. How he's like, wow,
• 59:56
  Speaker 8: you guys did the whole good cop badcop thing really well?
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 8: Like he thinks that they're working together against him and
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 8: it's actually just their body heads.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, I love I love how they see themselves relative
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: to them men and then see them as a unit.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 5: Absolutely and this Yeah, this sort of playing playing people
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 5: off one another without really even trying, it's amazing.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely Ninive it comes from a place of
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: feeling like she's in charge of a whole organization and
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: she has to downsize to just herself and then struggles
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: really hard to like just work with a few other
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: people who see themselves as equal to her rather than
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: as her like automatic subordinates she has. She's juggling so
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: many different hats like she is.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 6: She's on the other side of the continent and is
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 6: still trying to devote one hundred percent of her efforts
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 6: to protecting Rand and the boys, Andy GWayne and basically
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 6: anyone who comes into her fold, which is now Land
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 6: and Morain against you know, what she thinks is her
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 6: will and Elaine. And she also is dealing with, you know,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 6: her relationship with Land and the difficulties there.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: But also there's a lot of growth there.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 6: Too, because she isn't willing to accept, you know, breaking
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 6: of vows and bonds for them to be together, because
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 6: that is a core of her identity. Is in spite
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 6: about her flaws, she you know, respects that and respects
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 6: people for who they are, and she doesn't want that
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 6: for herself, and she doesn't want that for Land. And
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 6: she also you know, struggles immensely with her pride Like Avienda,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 6: they both are very insecure and care a lot what
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 6: people think about them, even if they think the opposite
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 6: is true. And so part of her you know, struggles
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 6: with all these things is juggling protecting all these people,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 6: becoming an Isodaie, going on this mission fighting the first second,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 6: and also learning to just not care what other people
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 6: what other people think about you, which is very difficult
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 6: to do if you have that problem to begin with, right, So.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 8: That's a whole part of her transformation. You know, in
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 8: the beginning, she leaves the Two Rivers as the Wisdom
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 8: trying to protect the boys, and that, like you said,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 8: that is her that's her mission. And you know, she
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 8: decides to become Isidie so that she can learn how
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 8: to pull down Moraine essentially in order, because she thinks
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 8: that's how she's going to protect the Two Rivers folk.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 8: But then in this book she's like that, you know,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 8: her reasons are starting to transform, and I think she's
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 8: really struggling with that. I guess her purpose like her
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 8: own purpose, and she's starting to realize that she wants
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 8: to become Isodye because she wants to be a side,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 8: not necessarily just because she wants to be able to,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 8: you know, retain her duties as wisdom and self appointed protector.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: Another thing I find really interesting with Ninive is well,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: really with all of the vast majority of the characters really,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: but particularly with Ninive is how she travels the vast
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: majority of the world and doesn't really have a lot
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: of possessions and often has to give them up, which is,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a homebody. I have a whole sewing
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: room full of stuff that i haven't touched in like
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: a year that I'm going to get to around two eventually,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: and just Ninive up, I mean all of them, but
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: particularly Naive. She up and leaves her home and has
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: you know, the clothes on her back and a backpack
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: full of herbs, and keeps repeatedly losing that and then
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: accumulates a little more stuff and then has to leave
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: that all behind. And at the same time, she has
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: this really strong sense of who she is and where
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: she came from and Stout two Rivers Woolens like she
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: hasn't owned a pair of good Stout two Rivers Woolens
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: in like years for the majority of the of the
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: series that we're reading, Her she's been divorced of her
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: her home and her gear for a couple of years,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: but she retained such a strong sense of identity while
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: also continually turning over her possessions and not really having
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: a home. And I just, I don't know, I really
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: strongly identify my identity with where I live. And it's
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: amazing to me how all these characters, but particularly her,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: don't do that. They don't have a home, and yet
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: they're very strongly knowing who they are in.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 7: Some self so.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 5: Capable and that way doesn't even cover what you just
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 5: so articularly described. I'm just sort of trying to like.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 8: Well, that aspect of her is so important for Rand
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 8: later because I think it's in this book where GWayne
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 8: is reporting back and saying, oh, you know, and is
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 8: his ego is inflating.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 5: He's got such a big head.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 8: We and they, you know, they're kind of taking it
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 8: upon themselves that, okay, we need to remind.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: Him who he is and where he is from.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 8: And you know, Ninive, having been so grounded in her
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 8: own sense of identity where she comes from, that becomes
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 8: a very important task for her to you know, remind
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 8: Rand of who he is and where he has come from.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 5: She's probably the most values driven character in the whole series, Like,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 5: notwithstanding you know, extremist to use like the White Cloaks
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 5: and so on. But when you think about the original characters,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 5: sort of our main sort of protagonist of the series,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 5: I'd say she changes a lot, and she grows up,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 5: and she her priorities shift in response to you know,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 5: changes in her life. But she I think, yeah, she's
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 5: one of the ones that maintains the most core sense
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: of self and what who she is, as you say, throughout,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 5: and so it's like she goes to all these changes,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 5: but maybe she's like one of the least changed overall.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 5: I don't know, what do you guys think, Like that's
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 5: she resists, she does resist change. I think, yeah, a
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 5: lot she changes despite trying that too.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 5: I think what I'm kind of like, like as analogous
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 5: to is if if religion was part of a bigger
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 5: part of this series overall, she'd be the sort of
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 5: the one who wouldn't lose faith, and just just to
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 5: put that sort of analogy on top, she'd be the
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 5: one who still remember like the old church that we
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 5: used to go to and and forget that and to
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 5: forget who you are. She's the one who maintains the
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 5: roots the best. Yeah, that's that's I kind of see
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 5: her as as the cornerstone of the group in that sense.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 5: But yeah, I don't think of anything more to really
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 5: add to than what you've described. Apart from that.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: I never exactly thought of her as the core are
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: stung in that terms. But that's absolutely spot on, And.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: I really like you just sort of mentioning about Aviender.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 5: I had not thought of her. They're sort of is
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 5: calling two characters foils, probably the opposite of a foil.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 5: They're so similar in that I never thought of that
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 5: before at some of the early scenes where they're sort
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 5: of interacting, when like before when they're still in tear,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 5: when Agwayne, Elaine and nanive are interviewing Marco and Joya
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 5: and Aveenda's in the room and there's sort of a
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 5: little bit of the way I remember that scene is
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 5: there is a little bit of tension almost between it
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 5: Naanivea and Eend. They're quite sort of like two strange cats.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 5: But if you think about it through this discussion that
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 5: they're just so similar. Yeah, anyway, so that's interesting.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: I had never thought of that, But you're right, they
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: are very similar characters and they don't really interact a
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: whole lot, I think, which I think maybe is part
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: of why it's hard to see that.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 5: I think that's one of the few, the very few
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: scenes we see them in together. I had to think
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 5: as well.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 6: And then at the very fury end when she is
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 6: trying to figure out what's going on after Rand's death
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 6: not death, and she confronts Aveanda, and there's still that
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 6: tension there.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, for sure, So there you go. What about
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 5: Okay about Elaine her story? I get her identity through
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 5: the series through this book rather if we're going to
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: go through some of the major characters.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 8: Well, I think that tied in with Tom and also
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 8: comparing herself to her mother quite a lot.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 5: I didn't even think about that, but it's it's right
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 5: there in the text. And learning never to trust a
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 5: pretty boy, filling up right life lesson learned.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 6: And she's been she's been pretty sheltered. So I think
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 6: that she's now she got to go to the Why Tower.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 6: But you know, the White Teller, you're constantly, you know,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 6: under the eye of the Mistress of Novices and other
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 6: icid eye and now she's been released. She doesn't have
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 6: Gowin looking over her back, she doesn't have Gallad looking
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 6: over her back. She's finally learning how to be an adult.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 6: And I think she does pretty well.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 6: The criticisms against her, I think can be harsh. Sometimes
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 6: they're fair, but I think that she's still a teenager,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 6: and she's been pretty sheltered, and she's incredibly generous, and
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 6: I think that that is you know, awesome, and she's
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 6: able to compromise, and she's you know, learning how to
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 6: interact with people, not as a as a queen, but
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 6: as you know, just a human being, because she can't,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 6: you know, always be pretending to be an isid eye
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 6: when they're on these you know, trips, they're.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 5: Kind of under cover. I think, Yeah, I'm thinking in
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 5: particular about her interaction with nine Eve, And so in
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 5: previous book we saw her moving more into that mediator
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 5: role between Ellen and nine Eve when they weren't talking,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 5: and then in this one we see her more of that,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 5: but also her growing out of the daughter rare phase,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 5: that teenage sort of phase and growing up as you say,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 5: and sticks sticks with me. And this was as a
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 5: side another kind of mind blown moment for me or
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 5: be while back when they're in tan Chico and they
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 5: have the veils over their mouths and knows her nose
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 5: in the air, and that's why she gets it in
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: her mouth. It's spot on, spot freaking on. And then
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 5: I think, like again that describing that isn't an accident
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 5: in the writing either, Like that's very much there on purpose.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 5: I think, so we can see that's like a marker
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 5: point in the story, like, Okay, she's still like arrogant
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 5: without confident and confidence and authority at that point that
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 5: that obviously she grows more and more into that beyond
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 5: this particular book, when you know, through the Succession and
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 5: all of that, she crows into that authority. But at
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 5: this point she's still very probably more immature, entitled, and
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 5: just thinking that even when we think about when they
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 5: were into Chica and being followed, she thought that the
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 5: men that were after them were trying to get her
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 5: because she was the daughter aravand or not because it
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 5: was actually nine Eve and it's because Ninive looked like
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 5: the STUW dumb like. So, I think we see a
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 5: lot of her growing up. I don't think she so
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 5: there's mistakes at the time, or maybe she looks back
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 5: afterwards and realizes them. But I think she's still very
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 5: much a child in this in this particular part of
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 5: the story.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: I agree with that because it definitely like she goes
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: to the tower, Like she's definitely like a child when
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: she goes to the tower, and she's supposed to set
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: her rank aside, but like, I mean, how it's really hard,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: right because everyone's like, oh, remember to not treat her
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: like the daughter heir, and that's like that don't think
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: about Elephant's line from Inception, you know, like all you
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: can do is be like, remember to treat her like
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: not the daughter air vandor. But yeah, she goes out
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: into this story, I mean even more than when they
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: went out to Falma, Like this is this is really
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: when she starts having to deal with the world as
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: a woman, as an individual, not as someone with a
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: system behind her. I mean, she's got naive, but like
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: she has a much more ambiguous mission. The stakes are
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: much higher and there's no sense of anyone ever coming
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: to rescue them, so she has to really really grow
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: up a lot and come into her identity as you're
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: a woman who happened to be born into power like
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: that is a incidental detail compared to the fact that
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: you're being attacked by a gang of men with Nie
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: right now.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 5: It's a side note to that as well in terms
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 5: of her naivety. And I think this is mostly from
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 5: ninei's point of view. She's at this point in the story,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 5: Elene is still trusting of the White Tower and very
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 5: much sees it as well. They're the authority in the
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 5: world and we were enrolled in that, and we're part
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 5: of that, and why would they be doing anything wrong?
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 5: Like why would they have ulterior motives? And then whatnot?
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 5: And meanwhile we see this from ninety's point of view.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: My needs like, girl, open your eyes.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 5: Open, you know, like you're like you'll learn because we
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 5: know obviously Ninie's been skeptical of the Tower Viam Warren
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 5: from the very beginning and all of that. So I
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 5: think I think she gets through that a little bit
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 5: after this, so she's still at that phase of the
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 5: story as well that are trusting the institution of the
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 5: White Tower almost blindly still.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 4: So I just had a little side thought. It's not
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: at all deep, but I wonder if she knows.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 8: That her mother wants like once a month or something
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 8: like that, just disguises herself and walks through the city
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 8: and interacts with the people.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: I doubt it very much because.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: This is I guess Elaine's version of that just all
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: in one hint.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: I never thought of that. It's totally right, she's getting
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: that experience via very different means. Totally and I thought,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: even meaning to that's I like that.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 5: This is like, it's sort of it's like, this is
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 5: actually the best way to train accepted, actually put them,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 5: actually put them into the world.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would love to see. Yeah, that scheme that
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: Egoin comes up with at the end for having the
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: apprentices of the various channeling societies move. I so so
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: so wish that we could see how that plays out,
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: because that would clearly make a way way less arrogant,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: more accessible channeling society. Yeah, society. It's sad how useless
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 3: that is said that have become.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 6: And you know, of course it's like the black Aja
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 6: is always behind the scenes, but you know they should
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 6: be like it meant it means servant right in the
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 6: old tongue something like that.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're not at all.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 6: There's no you know, articles being made by the brow
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 6: and Ajia that are public access. Like people aren't going
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 6: out and giving healing, you know, no help with.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 4: Crops, no help with droughts, Yeah, no help with fighting
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 4: the blight.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 5: Like, yeah, I've been reading too many organizational books and
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 5: stuff that it's like so I apologize for the language,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 5: but it's like the operating from a position of skis
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 5: and rather than going out into the world, they're sort
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 5: of like, no, no, we need to reel it back.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 5: We need to protect what we have. We need to
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 5: But obviously, as you say that, that's influenced by is
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 5: she in the Black Eye Journal all that kind of stuff,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 5: But that's definitely yeah, I like that reading of it.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the institution is not resilient at all.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 5: Not No, it's got white. It's white anted from the inside.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 6: Good thing that like basically everyone has magic powers in
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 6: the small villages I've got.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 5: I know exactly we've I'm just aware we've we've buelt
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 5: a lot on some of the major female characters. I'm
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 5: a little bit about parent as well. So far, did
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 5: we do we want to move on to talk? Like
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 5: I'm really interested in this discussion about identity and development
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 5: through this book in particular, do we want to dive
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 5: into like Matt for instance, or some of the other Yeah,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 5: we do.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 4: It, Matt.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I definitely feel that. You know, Matt, his plot
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 8: is starting to be facial a fair bit more in
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 8: this book as well, particularly with the Doorway and his
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 8: I guess his biggest identity wow thing that he has
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 8: to deal with is his fact shored memories that he
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 8: comes through after the Doorway.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 6: I think one of Matt's biggest advantages is that a
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 6: lot of the times he just doesn't give a fuck
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 6: about anything.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 3: And you know it's I mean, he does a little bit.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 6: He gives a little fuck, but like Paren cares like
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 6: so much about everything, almost too much, Whereas Matt, he
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 6: is able to have less of these crises because he
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 6: just doesn't spend time thinking about it. And he's like,
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 6: you know what, I really like battles. I guess I'm
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 6: a gambler. Now, I guess I have this army following me,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 6: bloody memories, bloody.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 4: Eye to die.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: You can't just a guy can't live.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 6: And I don't think that, Like, I still think he's
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 6: very He has a firm foundation from his two rivers upbringing,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 6: but out of all the core characters, he never pines
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 6: for the Two Rivers once, Like, I don't think he's
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 6: ever considered going back.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: He is one hundred percent just moving.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 6: Through life and totally I think I think it's it's
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 6: one of his best advantages because he's always diving in
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 6: and doing the right thing, but he's.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 3: Not worried about it at all.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, out of the three of the boys
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 8: where you know, parent, Amanda is still really struggling with
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 8: the loss, well not lost, but more of a change
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 8: from who they are of like or leaving the Two Rivers.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 4: He's like, do you know what, I'm going to be
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 4: a gambler?
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 5: I like women like I just want to.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 4: I just want a tavern with like good one and
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 4: gambling and pretty girl with some pretty eyes.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 8: And it's so opposite to what he is supposed to do,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 8: and he keeps pushing for that, and he's the only
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 8: one out of him that consciously makes a decision that
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 8: this is what I want, even though he doesn't quite
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 8: get to maintain that.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 4: Just wants to have.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 5: Thank you, I really needed any work. Oh it's okay,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 5: I was gonna, yeah, listen to what you guys are saying,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 5: and I completely agree. It's like the less fucks that
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 5: Matt gives, the better his life turns out, basically, And
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 5: I think that people have a lot of criticism for
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 5: Matt and I completely hear that and understand it, particularly
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 5: around you know, his treatment of barmaids so to speak,
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 5: and their eyes take that literally. Otherwise, Yeah, I think
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 5: that he does struggle with a lot of new information
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 5: in this particular book, and it's his I don't want
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 5: to say fate because that's too like on the nose,
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 5: but definitely once he lends into it, particularly given his
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 5: innate luck, the Penny Polish luck and going through the doorway,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 5: both doorways with his answers and his memories, he just
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 5: is sort of on a track down a particular road
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 5: and he gets frustrated. We see him get frustrated with
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 5: his inability to avoid that. But yeah, comes back around
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 5: to I don't give like it actually suits his personality.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 5: I think it's what I'm trying to say in the end,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 5: because he doesn't he doesn't really have to do anything.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 5: It just sort of all happens to him.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's almost like he really internalizes the
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: lesson of like surrender in order to control because like
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 3: he fits his destiny a lot. But the lack of
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: giving fucks, I mean, that's just him being like, this
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 3: is what it is, and I'm just gonna roll with it.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: And I think in many respects he figures out how
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: to be taverant effectively before the other two guys, even
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 3: though he denies it really hard, like I don't know,
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: but I.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 8: Don't know because Ran, sorry, Rand does say like he
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 8: kind of figures out that, all right, cool, I'm taveran.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 8: Like he kind of figures out and like I think
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 8: in this book that instead of trying to fight being taveriant,
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 8: because you're just going to get forced where you want
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 8: to go. If you want to have any kind of
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 8: control in your own life, then you kind of go
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 8: with it. And then that way you get to make
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 8: your own decisions. But as long as you're kind of
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 8: heading in that same direction as your taveran pulling you,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 8: it's like the only way you can kind of gain
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 8: some control of your own life. Whereas Matt is constantly fighting,
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 8: you know, this teveran pull oh, and he just wants
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 8: to He's constantly thinking about wanting to leave, wanting to leave,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 8: wanting to leave, and he keeps getting fear right back,
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 8: so he doesn't. I think it takes them a bit more.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 6: Here's the thing, though, that is that just him being
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 6: an unreliable narrator of himself or is he actually fighting it?
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 8: Well, I was thinking that more in like that comes
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 8: from Rand's perspective rather than Matt's. Like, I think Ran
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 8: consciously realizes that before Matt does.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely think it's an unconscious acceptance on Matt's part,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: like an unconscious mastery. I don't think he ever realizes it. Yeah,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: but I think the fact that he just has so
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: few bucks to give and he holds on to what
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: he thinks he should be doing a lot less assiduously
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: than the others. But the thing I really like about
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 3: Matt in this book is this is like the conclusion
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 3: of creating the final Matt that we really see for
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: the rest of the series, because this is the end
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: of his daggered doorway doorway pattern. This is the beginning
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: of him having all the things taken away and all
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 3: the things added back in that really allow him to
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: start evolving. Because I feel like in a lot of
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: ways we don't really see Matt until this book. You know,
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 3: I agree, he's totally this obfuscated like background. He comes
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 3: up to create problems now and then and then fades away,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: and it's just like our comic relief sort of character
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: who gives us these like world building. Oh yeah, there's
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 3: lots of bars with barmaids and you can just flip
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 3: them coins for their eyes and like all of that,
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: and then this book it's like, oh shit, he's really
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 3: really really gonna matter at some point, Like this guy
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 3: is gonna save the world at least once or twice,
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 3: because like he's now been through both these doorways, and
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: the second doorway really resolves so many of the hanging
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 3: issues we get hanging ha unintentional pun hanging issues that
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 3: we get from uh, you know, eating away at his
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 3: memories and you're like, how are we going to have
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: a complete character if he has all these holes? And
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 3: you know, he doesn't anymore because of the story.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 11: It's not the way he asked for it, but like still,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 11: it's basically Matt's second book because he really you know,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 11: as has been mentioned in previous episodes, Matt's first seen
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 11: quote unquote is his fight in book.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 6: Three with the Glad and Gowin and then finally Matt
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 6: is like becoming a character in book four, and really
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 6: it's where I started to like Matt. You know, I
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 6: didn't like Matt a lot in the first few books,
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 6: and you know it's because he's under the influence of
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 6: the Digger. He's not really doing much of what the
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 6: other characters are doing. And then later on, like book
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 6: ten is when I started to absolutely adore him. But
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 6: book four is when he is becoming a character. So
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 6: it's not so much as like he's forming his identity
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 6: is as much as he's actually on screen now becoming.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we begin, you know, my room, and he gets
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 5: his hat and.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 6: The hat although okay, the hat, although I will say
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 6: him blowing the hole in in book too is one
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 6: of my favorite.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 5: Map Again, it was just like until later fell into it.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: It was it's so mad. He's like, I'm gonna touch
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: this thing who.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 5: Said in test a red button? And I just as
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 5: you're sort of talking about, particularly learning to let go
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 5: the most for mastery, it's like, I wonder he probably
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 5: would have been a really good channeler reciting sorry, no, no, no, no,
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 5: I didn't I didn't defeat the female, gotcha yeah, in
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 5: an alternate world, I mean, and yeah, I was back excited.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 3: I don't think he would hate that.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 5: But putting his son all of his her own bias is, yeah,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 5: just that whole idea, like just let it go. And
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 5: I love when he realizes what's going on, and it's
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 5: in the next book. One of my upcoming favorite scenes
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 5: with him is when Rand manipulates him to validate the
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 5: battle plan.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 9: Yeah, it's a.
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 4: Love where he sends he sends Land in to just
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 4: have a and then yeah, like what did you say? Okay, yeah,
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 4: all right, we're on the right track.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 3: When he's because obvious quality control doesn't matter.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 8: And I think at that point, like Rand has figured
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 8: out how the Taverian pulling is work.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 4: So he's like, sure, Matt, I'm going see y'all. I'll
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 4: see I'll see you tomorrow.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 5: You'll be you'll be back. You'll be back when I
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 5: need you, and like Ransom, Yeah, Teverean journey is obviously
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 5: a lot more acute than it was for Paren and
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 5: Matt and I suppose we're going to talk about the
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 5: Tavere and stuff bubbles of evil at the beginning, is
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 5: like that's like, that's like them synchronizing almost.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 4: At the beginning one of my favorite things, like.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 5: You know obviously that only happened to them. It's sort
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 5: of like when the as a reader is sort of
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 5: like being told explicitly all these guys are connected. We
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 5: kind of could tell already. But yeah, so I know
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 5: you want to talk about that, Nick, what do you reckon?
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: Well?
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean Matt's bubble of Evil and we get
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 8: to meet the future future is it generals of the
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 8: Band of the Red Hand?
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 3: H my mind when the guys listed them off.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 5: No, that was a cool tail.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 8: The Bubbles of Evil are definitely some of my favorite
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 8: scenes from the entire.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 5: Really great artwork of I forget who it's from the
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 5: playing cards and the Almlin jumping out of the playing
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 5: card and Matt is sort of like up against the
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 5: wall like freaking out, which is really really cool.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 3: Is that the one that was in the video that
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 3: John made. He's like stumbling back, yeah, with the quote
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: You're just stupid enough to do that, which like arguably
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 3: isn't a quote from that scene, but whatever, it's amazing art. Like, yeah,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 3: I love that that particular piece because I hadn't seen
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: it before he made that video and I was just like,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: what someone painted that moment. It's one of the best
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 3: robots ever we.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 5: Can yeah my drop it in the chat afterwards. But yeah,
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 5: it just it just really well articulates, like the emotion
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 5: and like it's a horrific scene. I think, particularly on
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 5: like a reread and like multiple rereads, you can kind
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 5: of almost kind of gloss over how it would have felt.
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 5: But I'm like, you know, paying more attention to what
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 5: how progresses the storyline, but it would have been absolutely
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 5: terrifying with all three of them. I love the way
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 5: that it's written in terms of of the cock crowing.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 5: You know, it's sinking up all the timelines.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 3: Oh oh, that's a slightly different art piece than got
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: used in the video. I hadn't seen this one. This
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 3: one's even cooler. God damn it, that's amazing. I love
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 3: the blood on the knife. That's like super cools.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she stabs his hand as she's really tiny, and
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: then she's growing as he throws the knife to get Yeah.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 4: I just love in nature these scenes.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 8: How you know this, You're actually getting quite a lot
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 8: of information drop from these scenes as well, like like
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 8: the grounding and you know, you're realizing that you have
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 8: to be able to ground them, to kind of like
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 8: dissolve them, or to yeah, oh just please give me.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is the first this is the first time,
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 3: like we get used to the idea of bubbles of evil,
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 3: but this is the first time that it happens in
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 3: this areas. It's the first time that you realize that
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 3: the Dark Lord can literally warp reality in ways that
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 3: are totally inconsistent with anything else that happens, even like
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: bubble to bubble, they're not the same, Like there's themes,
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: but it's like no reality can just warp any way,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 3: Like there are no rules for this, and this is
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 3: the first time we see that, and the first time
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: the boys realize that, and that's like, wait, what, it's terrifying.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's sort of yeah, it sort of ties. And
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 5: so we're kind of going back to our earlier discussion
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 5: about why we like this book and how everything that
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 5: the next phase of the stories is really kicked off with.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a major strap in scene. Absolutely, Like what
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: this is going to happen for the rest of the series.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, And just think about it, like the shadow
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 5: is rising, you know, like more of this bad stuff
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 5: is going to be happening. Reality is unraveling consistently now,
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 5: and we're really good or something about it, and you
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 5: think about it like that, it's really no wonder that
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 5: Rand feels like on such like that he's in such
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 5: a hurry to get everything done, and to you know,
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 5: we think about his his his planning and like his
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 5: hectic nature almost to begin inplenting his plans to get
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 5: to find out that the quickest way possible to get
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 5: from Tier to Ruinian. When he's waiting for Moron to
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 5: come back and he's just like counting the seconds and
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 5: he's like, come on. I always kind of thought that
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 5: it was kind of ironic that he that there's such
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 5: a folk in particularly by Rand, in this book in Ruinian,
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 5: there's such a focus on time slipping through his fingers
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 5: when this whole series is about time. I don't I
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 5: don't really know what else I want to go with
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 5: that statement, apart from like I just thought, always seemed
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 5: really ironic to me. It's like we're running out of time.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 5: Time is circular? What? Okay? So I don't know, do
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 5: you guys want to talk about Rand or is that
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 5: too much to oh?
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: Sorry, go on, Nah, I think I think we should
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: at least touch on supposed protagonists of this entire series
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 3: while we talk about identity for sure, because yeah, yeah,
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: he goes through a lot in this book, like a
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 3: lot of important turning points that end up really setting
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 3: his path for the next several books really.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 8: And this bubble, his bubble of evil, is really really important.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 8: And you know because in his bubble of evil, he
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 8: enters the cave on Dagaba, right, And this is really
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 8: like the start of his identity for this book as well.
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it is.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 8: He's battling himself, which is something that you know, It's
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 8: a line that's actually repeated throughout this whole book. Is
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 8: he's a contrast of who who he is and who
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 8: he must be. And it's in this book where okay, cool,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 8: he's born to be and prophesies to be the Dragon reborn,
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 8: but he's also trying to make decisions where he's going
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 8: out and training and you really get to see him
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 8: develop into them, into the man that he's going going
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 8: to be. And he's still questioning that a lot in
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 8: this book. And I think I know, Seth, this is
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 8: his favorite one of his favorite lines is from the
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 8: end of that bubble of evilers for now, he wanted
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 8: to sit and remember a shepherd named Randol thought, and
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 8: that is I would have to say it's my favorite sentence.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 3: If you can have a favorite sentence, I mean there
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: are a lot.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 8: Yeah, that is my favorite sentence from the entire series.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 8: And from that point forward, every time I read a
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 8: rand chapter, I have that going over and over in
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 8: the back of my in the back of my mind.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 8: And you know, this is such a strong it's such
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 8: a strong theme, and it's such an important centers for rand,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 8: if not for this book, for the rest of the series.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: It's so sad, Yeah, because he sets it aside. He
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: that's like the last time that he embraces remembering who
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: he was, and after that he's just fighting the memory
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: of who he was. And yeah, it totally lurks in
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 3: the back of my head constantly too. It's just like,
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 3: I can't you remember the shepherd named Randal thor.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 5: It makes me like you're just reading it out source
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 5: and I thought that sort of heart wrenching feeling every
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 5: single time. It's just like his journey is so dramatic.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 8: I think this line is also the reason why I
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 8: struggled to start a reread of the series because every
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 8: time I picked up The World and we open up
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 8: and rans like just this awesome little farm boy, and
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 8: I couldn't do it. I was I just start crying,
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 8: like I can't do it. And it took me so long.
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 8: Should properly start a reread? You know, this podcast really
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 8: encouraged me to do it. I think without this podcast,
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 8: I never would have been able to get past that.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 3: Whole I feel that so strongly. I mean, obviously I've
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 3: done a million reads, but yeah, opening up chapter one
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: is just such a gut punch every fucking time. I've
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 3: done it so many times, it never gets easier.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: And it's.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 6: It's so funny because when you first pick up the series,
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 6: those are hard chapters to get through because nothing happens.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 6: And then when you reread it, you're like, every sea,
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 6: every dialogue with Tam, you're like, oh my god, Tam,
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 6: you ran, Oh, here's mad. He's trying to catch a badger.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 6: And it's such a contrast to the first time read it.
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 6: And I got my coworker into it, and he, you know,
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 6: is having a hard time getting through those first chapters
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 6: because it is you know, without context is a little boring.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 6: You're just in a farm, you don't know, you don't
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 6: really care too much about walking down the road. And
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 6: when you have like like all of Rand's backstory, it's
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 6: emotionally powerful seeing him again as just a shepherd.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: It's like RJ wrote it to be repeatedly read over
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 3: and over again and was like, you'll thank me later.
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 4: I was reading.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 5: When I was reading for the first time, I was like,
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 5: I need to do this again. Like, I was just like,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 5: I know I'm missing things, and I know that this
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 5: is like almost like a surface level read. The second
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 5: one will be deeper, the third one, and then obviously
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 5: this podcast. I was like, well, I feel like I
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 5: feel like I like I jumped right as deep as
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 5: you can possibly go with all of these analyzes. But yeah,
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 5: completely agree.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 3: Should we maybe briefly go through that final prophecy and
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 3: then Carldon Knight? Yeah, yeah, unless there's anything else on
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 3: anyone's notes that we need to get through. But yeah,
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 3: I think starting to point sort of in the direction
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 3: of wrapping up might be wise.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 5: The ending prophecy, maybe I'll just read it, Yeah, do it.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 5: And when the blood was sprinkled on ground when nothing
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 5: could grow, the children of the Dragon to bring up
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 5: the people of the Dragon armed to dance with death.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 5: And he did call them forth from the wasted lands,
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 5: and they did shake the world with battle. From the
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 5: Wheel of Time by Sulimin Subagad, Chief Historian at the
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 5: Court of the Sun, The Fourth Age, the end of
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 5: the fourth book of the Wheel of Time.
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 3: Ah, is it really from a document called the Wheel
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 3: of Time?
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 5: I never noticed that before it does it says that
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 5: what's something that was was corrected later?
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: Because I swear that's not how it goes in the audiobooks.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 5: But now I need say that's what it says.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, I believe you. I just wonder if that
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 3: was something that got changed, or if I just missed
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 3: it this entire time. Maybe you just you need to
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 3: hear it with an Australian accent that that's probably it.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 3: That's probably actually it.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 5: You're lucky that I haven't been influenced by the local accent.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 5: I don't think I completely an ununderstandable So so just
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 5: just something I noticed straight away is the opening prophecy
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 5: is the third age, and this one's a fourth age.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 5: A little quick straw poll on which we thought. Sorry,
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 5: which fourth age are we referring to?
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 6: I'm assuming the one after the series ends, because you
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 6: know they say by the time the next age comes,
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 6: you know everything has been lost to move legend and mystery.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 6: I just I think that the past fourth age would
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 6: be too.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 3: I agree, too far. It's pretty on the nose with
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 3: people of the Dragon references. It's is this the first
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 3: prophecy we see that's from the fourth Age?
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 5: I don't think. I don't think so.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 3: I feel like the oh, there might be one at
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 3: the beginning of the first book, right, But it is
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 3: really interesting that it's this book where like a lot
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: of character arcs take off and a lot of identities
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 3: start to move into new directions that it would be
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 3: bracketed by quotes from to on two different ages. That
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 3: that really is very meta. It meta fits with how
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 3: we've been doing this tangent episode around identity and transition
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: like that. That fits so perfectly.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 5: It's it feels it feels right, doesn't it.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 5: I mean, obviously they're talking about the IU just to
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 5: make that blatantly obvious, and the battles that are to
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 5: come and the amount of wars and bloodshed that occur.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 5: We see that pretty quickly invies of heaven with the sea.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 3: So I mean it starts with him, you know, really
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 3: marking the end of the I el with revealing what
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 3: he does and creating rain, and I mean it's it's
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 3: a big ending for them. I mean, that's the beginning
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 3: of a remnant of a remnant will he say, I mean,
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 3: that's the beginning of the whittling down that that happens
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 3: for sure. And I wonder also, like like it's easy
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 3: to say, like, oh yeah, people of the Dragon, that's
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 3: the ieal, but like you know how prophecies are like
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 3: super ambiguous and could be taken like seventeen different ways.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 3: I wonder how much like that also could stand for
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 3: the entire world, for the fact that he's going to
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 3: break the world and remake everything. Like in many ways,
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 3: the entire population of the world that is affected by
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 3: the last battle is kind of like the children of
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 3: the Dragon, Like they get swept up in his struggle
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 3: and it popped out the other side with his triumph.
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 3: Like I don't know where I was going with that,
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 3: but just it felt very like how meta can we
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 3: make it more meta.
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 5: In the vein of being meta? Like I would just
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 5: sort of I really like the concept of shadow, obviously
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 5: the title of this book and the idea that shadows
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 5: are obviously a combination of both light and darkness. You
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 5: can't have a shadow in without darkness or without light,
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 5: and so it's sort of like that's a balance, and
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 5: that's a core and balance is a core theme of
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 5: the series and the ancient symbol Acidy and all of that.
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 5: I was reflecting a little bit on that for this
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 5: book and for this episode as well. It's a little
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 5: on the nose, but it's quite meta as well, I think.
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 3: Concept Yeah, that reminds me of this really cool quote
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 3: that I think is from Alan Watts. It's kind of long,
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 3: but the essence of it isn't if any of anyone's
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 3: out there is going to recognize it, but it's about
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 3: the fundamental principles of drama, and it basically talks about
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: how like a dream or whatever has four stages, and
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 3: the first one is everything is wonderful and awesome and
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 3: it's great, and that stage lasts a really long time,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 3: and then the darkness starts to come up a little
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 3: bit and things are looking a little unsettled, and then
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 3: the third phase is the darkness rises up a lot
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 3: and takes over and becomes the dominant paradigm. And that
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 3: phase is really short, and then there's this boom and
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 3: everything blows up, and then there's a waking period and
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 3: then the dreams starts. It's over, And that's his whole
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 3: metaphor about the fundamental principles of drama and change. And
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 3: I feel like this, I mean, the shadow is rising.
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 3: It's a very on the nose way of saying like
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 3: this is the part where the dream is starting to
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 3: get really unsettled, and we're gonna maybe have an over
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 3: overload of darkness before the light can come breaking back through. Well,
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 3: then I guess we should probably wrap up with yet
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 3: another shout out to Seth and Patrick for starting this
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 3: amazing podcast and inviting us to be voices on his
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 3: podcast repeatedly and letting us take over, and shout outs
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 3: to the entire community, both everyone who's listening as this
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 3: is after this is recorded, as well as everyone who
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 3: showed up and is listening with us right now, because
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 3: this community really fucking makes this podcast stand out amongst
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 3: everything else. And I love you, ladies. This has been
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 3: really fun.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, thank you.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I completely agree and with everything you just said,
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 5: and I'm so glad we were able to make this happen.
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 6: Seriously, thank you guys so much, to everyone, Satan Patrick
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 6: and everyone for joining.
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 3: Us live and all your comments and for all your
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 3: lady too. You guys.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 4: I'm so happy. Yeah, thanks friends, and we'll do this
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 4: to guest sometime.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Oh my god, guys, expires have
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 3: happen next.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, I can't believe it.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 6: It's been two years since the podcast came out, that
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 6: we're almost happening.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 5: We didn't either, don't want to think about it.
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a third.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 9: It's fine.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm a marine scientist, so I was working off shore.
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 5: That's why I didn't speak to you guys all week.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 4: That's so, it's fair.
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 5: It's fair enough.
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 4: That was my undergrad and I really miss it.
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 3: I don't do anything related tonight anymore.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, that's hard, was it?
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 5: That's cool? I didn't know that, Kelsey, Yeah, very cool.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I did. Most of my stuff.
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 5: Was in the Gulf of Mexico, so awesome.
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 6: Not not as pristine as Western Australia.
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 5: How was your honeymoon?
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 3: It was awesome and very tiring.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 6: We did the Amalfi Coast, then Rome, then Prague, and
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 6: then Berlin in two weeks.
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 4: Awesome.
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, so, and it was actually a little bit
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 6: colder than I was expecting, although I probably didn't do
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 6: my due diligence, so there wasn't as much you know,
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 6: lying in the sun time, but it was still it
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 6: was still great, and Prague was definitely my favorite. I
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 6: had never been before, and I definitely want to go back.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 4: Sounds epic, did.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 5: You uh which which? Which city? Did you see? Which?
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 5: Like real time city did you see.
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, let's see definitely and or vibes like the
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 3: old Europe.
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 6: But also, you know, one thing that's so cool about
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 6: Rome and Prague Amberlin is that it's all the architecture
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 6: spans like thousands of years, and so one building will
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 6: be super creepy Gothic castle, and then you'll have like
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 6: a weird nineteen sixties communist building, and then you'll have
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 6: like a Romantic.
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 3: Church, and then you'll have like a Roman pillar all
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 3: in the same view.
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 5: Wow, Europe, it's weird architect Yeah, it's pretty amazing, it is.
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 6: Yeah, oh yeah, it's just you know, the US in
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 6: terms of development is so old or young, not old.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 3: So it's really it's really bizarre as an American to
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 3: see all that. So yeah, I was about to say
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 3: that about Australia.
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 8: Yes, Australia is the same, like who we span decades,
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 8: not really in terms of architecture.
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 3: It's like, oh my god, it's one hundred years old.
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 5: So this morning just went down to Mum's kind of
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 5: like I suppose hometown, kind of bay area and we
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 5: had a look at a eighteenth night sorry, nineteenth century bathhouse,
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 5: and across the road we've got pretty sure fifteenth century
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 5: or Norman castle and it's all sort of that's that
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 5: that town has sort of grown up around it. It's incredible. Yeah,
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 5: this is also my geography. This area is a little rusty,
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 5: but I think across the water and down a little
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 5: bit is where they do most of the filming for Winterfell,
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 5: oh oh, the Game of Thrones. And I'm not going
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 5: to get a chance to but I was saying to
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 5: Mum today, I'd love to find out which coffee shop,
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 5: and I think it's in a little town called Strength.
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 5: For that if I'm not mistaken by there where that
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 5: that coffee.
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 3: That it's a prop. Now it's a prop a spoiler?
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 5: Oh is it? Then that is not a spoiler. That's
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 5: just a little easter egg that people who've seen the
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 5: episode one know what we're talking about.
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 8: I really wish that say had actually come out and said, hey,
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 8: this is the local coffee shop that you know this
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 8: coffee is from, because could you imagine like that that
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 8: coffee shop would be in business for years?
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 5: It would Yeah.
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 3: Everyone was like blaming Starbucks, like it's not even they're getting.
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 3: They're getting all their advertising they've apparently done. They don't
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 3: need it.
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 6: I'm so I'm so basic. I missed Starbucks desperately in Europe.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 6: It's not subjectively not good coffee, like compared to.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 3: Other cof you know, coffee.
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 6: Well, I did have some really good Italian coffee. I
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 6: did have really good Italian coffee. I really like iced coffee,
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 6: and that's not so much a thing in Europe that
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 6: I noticed. I mean, I could have gone to a
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 6: Starbucks in a big city, but I also was like,
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 6: I don't want to.
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 7: That's not I don't know.
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 6: It's hard enough to find the tourist sites and navigate
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 6: the subway.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 5: Fair enough, fair enough, And I know that particularly in Italy.
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 5: They're maybe not in Rome in particular, other parts of
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 5: Italy they've got we'll focus on, like local food, local produce,
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 5: and they sometowns like actively pick it against big businesses
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 5: like McDonald's and Starbucks and things from coming into their towns.
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 3: That makes sense.
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 5: Maybe that's part of it as well.
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's super cool. Literally was so wonderful.
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 6: And Italians are incredibly nice and everyone there is just
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 6: so eager to share their culture, and like I don't
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 6: speak Italian, but even just you know, talking to people
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 6: and attempting words and asking them, hey.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 3: What foo do you recommend?
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 6: Any waiter will spend five minutes telling you exactly what
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 6: you should.
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 3: Order, and you know history behind it. So that was
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 3: really nice.
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 5: So proud, aren't they?
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 11: Yeah?
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 5: I've not beene deadily myself. My sister lived there for
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 5: three years untils going back this year to do some studies,
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 5: so I kind of hear about it second hand through her.
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 5: So it's very very cool.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 3: You want to go to Europe, Man, you're busy enough graduating,
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 3: are you?
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 5: How's that going for you?
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 3: I bought my graduation stuff at yesterday and I'm pretty
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 3: sure that i'd have to work to flunk out. At
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 3: this point, I'm pretty sure I've got enough momentum that
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 3: if I even half ass what I'm doing, I will still.
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 4: Let me get up.
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 3: That's good.
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 8: Make sure you get a pack of bobby pins for
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 8: your gown, yeah, for your graduation. I had one idea
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 8: how to put mine on, So I just had a
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 8: pack of bobby pins. I released it, fixed it in
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 8: place with that.
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 3: It's basically like a dry cleaner bag.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 11: Front.
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 3: It's not that casplicated. Yeah, yeah, it's got a zipper.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 3: It's just like this black garbage bag with sleeves and
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 3: embroidery on it. And I had to get like my
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 3: my stool of gratitude that I can like wear through
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 3: the ceremony and then get my grandparents to pay for everything.
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 3: The whole way through seems really silly, but like you know,
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 3: it's it's the stole of gratitude and then they get
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 3: this little silly I don't know it was forty dollars
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 3: if I'm supposed to buy this, that sounds.
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 4: Kind of announced.
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 8: I swear mine had three apsum holes a hood that
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 8: was separate.
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I had no idea. I kind of just threw
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 4: it on and pinned it in place and it worked.
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 3: And also, I'm only getting my bachelor so there's no
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 3: like hood or anything fancy with that. It's just just
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 3: the bachelor's It's just going by high school, that's all
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 3: it is. Which I didn't graduate. I didn't graduate from
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 3: high school, so I don't really know what I'm doing back.
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I feel like that's what I've seen
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 3: in the pictures of my local high schools. But I
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 3: seriously don't pay that much attention because I've seen graduate
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 3: I don't care. Just part of why I'm going through
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 3: with this is because it's like I've literally only ever graduated, like.
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 6: I enjoy it, like you'll down is unflattering on everyone
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 6: because it's just like a trash bag and then everyone
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 6: looks silly. And then you know there's a speech that
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 6: will hopefully be good and it's usually really inspiring and
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 6: you're going to feel like, yeah, I did it, I'm going.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 3: To change the world.
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 5: And cheesy music we had really.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 3: Music, Yeah, I know we're gonna have like there's like
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 3: a live marching band thing that leads us all in.
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 3: I remember this from my husband's graduation last year, and
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 3: the commencement speaker is a former director of NAA, which
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 3: is pretty freaking cool. I'm excited about that. Actually saw
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 3: her the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, so it's like
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 3: one of our major like atmospheric science organizations, and like
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 3: I have often thought that it might be fun to
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 3: work for them. And yeah, there was this woman who
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 3: was like one of like Obama's head science advisors and
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 3: she was head of that agency for a while. But
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 3: she's like her backgrounds in marine biology and she actually
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 3: gave a talk the other day at campus that I
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 3: went to so I could get extra credit in one
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 3: of my classes, and it made me feel like having
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 3: her for for commencement speaker is going to be it's
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 3: gonna be pretty awesome. So hopefully that does reinspire me
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 3: because at this point, I'm like, the world can go
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 3: burn because there's nothing I can do to stop it.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 3: So a little inspiration would be nice to walk away
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 3: with anykay.
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 5: Enjoy Enjoy that it's going to be a daytime thing,
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 5: or an evening thing or going off a drink off to.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 3: It it's a daytime thing. Hell yeah, I'm gonna need
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 3: days just to recover after this, though, we are like
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 3: moving at the same time because stupid, stupid least stuff.
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 3: So we're like trying to figure out where we can
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 3: like move across town. And there's a lot of things happening.
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 3: So I'm going to be a frazzled, fucking mess that's
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 3: probably going to be hiding on Discord from the rest
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 3: of my life.
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 2: During that period.
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my pocket friends are gonna be there with me.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 3: You guys are gonna get every gritty detail of my graduation.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 5: Well yeah, like I said, enjoy it, and uh, we're
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 5: we're rooting for you.
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 7: Anna. You're all kinds of good crazy Thank you.
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Times Spoilers podcast.
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 3: Okay, we're twelve minutes past the top of the hour
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 3: and third times a Charm. It's the Ladies takeover.
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 7: Which one are we doing?
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 3: We're doing the Tangents of Heaven or is it gonna
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 3: be the Fires of Tangents.
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 7: I think I like Dungeons of Heaven.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 3: Also because we're heavenly.
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 9: Yes.
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 12: Also it's the Accents edition of What's Around.
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 9: The World Edition Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 3: And we have all voices that were at Spoiler Con.
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 3: That's well, so, yeah, we should probably introduce ourselves because
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 3: not everybody has our voices memorized from spoiler con.
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: Rude, So.
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 7: What are you saying? No one knows me?
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 9: Well, we're about to fix that, did.
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 3: I guess I can go first and then we can
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 3: work our way back west to Anna.
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 9: Yeah, fearless leader.
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I am a radia. You all know my
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 3: voice way too well because I take up way too
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 3: much airwaves and have my own podcasts, et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 3: This is what I think my third Tangents episode. I
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 3: love these ones because I don't have to actually know
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 3: what happened. I can just ramble about the book in
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 3: its entirety and it doesn't even matter if I'm not
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 3: kept up on the podcast. Sorry, Seth moving east because
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 3: I can do geography, I was not saying anything.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 9: I'm well one of the Kelsey's and Canada Kelsey or
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 9: Kelsey name speaker in the discord, I guess for those
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 9: who aren't super familiar with me and my Canadian shenanigans.
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 9: I started listening to what Spoilers when they had just
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 9: released like their seventieth episode, I think, So I started
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 9: listening and lurking for a very long time. I binged
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 9: through all this set of the episode with episodes within
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 9: like maybe a couple of weeks, and then heard all
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 9: about the Discord in that time, and they were just
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 9: going to Jordan Con I think for the first time.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 9: And that's kind of when I decided to join Discord.
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 9: And here we are on a Tangents episode. Apparently Nan,
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 9: you're next.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 7: So I'm nin I'm also in Canada right now. I'm
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 7: in the Blue and the Green Naja on the Discord.
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 7: My spoiler con claim to fame is that I asked
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 7: Michael Kate Redding and Michael Kraber what makes them cry?
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 3: Uh, that's a good question.
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I was just I was so proud. I actually
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 7: made my grayble cry while he was answering it.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 2: So, you know, it was amazing something that can go
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: on a letterhead.
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 7: Totally, totally. It's on my resume already. I think, Anna,
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 7: please take over and save me.
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 2: I can't do that. Hi, I'm Anna. I'm of the
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: European or also known as the Old Blood portion of
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: the community. I joined the Discord I think around the
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: first spoiler con and then at the second or last
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 2: spoiler Con.
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 12: I was a surprise guest, and I surprised.
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: Many of people. I also participated in the first that
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: I know of, first sister ceremony that's ever.
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 3: Really it was so cool.
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 2: Wearing inn was actually also I.
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 7: Was found of its well, yes, I was found of
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 7: bomb so near my mother in law. Now, no, i'm
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 7: your step mom Anna, right, I don't know that's right.
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 2: I get confused. We also have a birth mom, so
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: oh no, I'm not. Yeah, And I hope that I
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 2: am not wearing everyone out with my accent because it's
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 2: all over the place.
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 9: I love it adds a little bit of flavor to
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 9: the episode.
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: I from Germany. I didn't say that. I just said you,
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: which is what I identify yess European.
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 3: I asked these lovely ladies to join me because I
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 3: love their voices and their faces and their thoughts, and
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 3: I thought it would be really cool to get a
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 3: collection of spoiler Cohn attendees together. But I also didn't
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 3: want to wake up at eight in the morning, which
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 3: is what it would have taken to get an Australian,
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 3: so I limited myself to Germany as the farthest away.
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 3: I was going to make stuff happen.
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 2: Good to know you picked me for my personality and
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: up for my times, I'll pick you.
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 3: I'm also being yelled at by Discord to promote Broken
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 3: Earth spoilers, so high I host Broken Earth spoilers. You
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 3: should read Broken Earth Trilogy by M. K. Jemison and
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 3: then come listen to me talk about geology and social
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 3: justice because that's what that project is. Oh and Kelsey
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 3: is if I ever get around to doing the next chapter,
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 3: then you will eventually get to hear Kelsey because she
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 3: came down and recorded chapter ten. Yes, me for the
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 3: World went to Hell in a handbasket y.
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 9: Yeah, Yeah, that was a whirlwind. That was a couple.
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 9: I saw Seth the day before that for a very
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 9: oosqua induced recording of Wheel of Time.
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 5: Ish.
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 9: I just kind of sat there and locked in the
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 9: background for most of it. But yeah, and then I
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 9: was down to a radio's host the next day. Fun
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 9: two days.
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we got to meet Tonky. That was that was fun.
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 3: As soon as we got down out of my bedroom studio,
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 3: it was like, and we're going back to Canada. So
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 3: I got you just for the podcast special delivery. Yeah.
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 9: Oh, we had such grand plans of like bringing down
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 9: dinner and having food and like chilling out, catching up,
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 9: and it's like, nope, bam bam, thank you. Man popped
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 9: in for recording and left ryway. It's kind of crap.
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 3: So I'm looking forward to editing that because it'll be
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 3: kind of a blast from the past. But and so
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 3: that's already pre edited it for me. And I believe
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 3: that somebody who was more organized than I felt capable
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 3: of being wrote us a list of things to talk about.
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 9: Yeah, thanks Anna, I have that Google dot right in front.
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 2: Of my face.
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 7: Mean too.
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 2: I reject the label of being organized, but I did
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: not have the space to make a list.
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 9: So did you just presume my organizational skills?
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 2: How dare you? Okay, I've seen you very chaotic, Thank
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 2: you very much. Yeah, and the first I think the
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 2: first item on the list was shooting the ship and
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 2: we already did that.
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 9: I like that I had to explain what shooting the
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 9: ship was.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 7: I feel like that made me feel so old generally,
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 7: like what what you're younger than these youngsters are using nowadays.
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 3: I did not get that from my age cohort, for
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 3: the record, I got that from my parents' generation.
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 7: Oh no, So you, so it should be the other
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 7: way around. Feel too young? Like what what was the
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 7: oldies using?
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 9: Pretty much?
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 2: Pretty much sippy? So shall we talk about the fire soupavn?
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 9: Oh I suppose so, I mean maybe, don't you guys
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 9: just want to hear us bullshit for the rest of
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 9: like two hours.
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 3: No self promotion and talking about we love each other.
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: I can just set promotion because I may start a
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 2: podcast sometimes if like Corona stops being a thing.
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 9: Oh, but podcast, what would you do?
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: So? John l Jen, who does all the editing for
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 2: the Boys, asked me if we do disc words spoilers
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 2: podcast together about Terry Pratchett. Oh, and we were about
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 2: to start that, and then he works for his work.
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: He has access to an audio student but because he's
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: not going into work.
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 12: Right now, he can't go there, and so we postponed
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 12: it for maybe forever.
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 12: But it's the reason I have a microphone now, because.
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 7: That that's pretty cool. What language would you do it in? Anna, Yeah,
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 7: that that'd be pretty epic. I'd listen to that, hell, y'all.
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been pre approved by the boys. It's a
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 2: it's a farm project. I did. I did the I
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 2: did the cover art already, and that's everything that's happened yet.
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 9: Oh it grows, it's growing.
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 3: Yes, the Daughter podcast population is working on happening.
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, the farm grows.
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 3: This is how they get you first. First, you first,
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 3: you just guessed on a thing real quick, just one episode,
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 3: and the next thing you know, Seth has you set
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 3: up with a proper microphone and a recording expectation.
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 9: They're definitely cultivating a team of farmers, that's for sure.
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Seth, Seth.
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 2: That was one of the reasons I said yes because
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 2: I knew that when John asked me, I knew that
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 2: I would not be responsible for any of the technical stuff,
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: like I'm done, I'm fine there, because otherwise I would
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 2: have been even more freaked out about the idea.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 3: The document said we should say how old we were
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 3: when it was published, because that's amazing. Oh yes, also three, Yeah,
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 3: and I were three years.
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 9: Old and this book came out.
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 3: Are you the same age you two?
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because I mean I don't know what our birth
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 3: months are, but yeah, we're both turning thirty this year,
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 3: so yeah, yeah.
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 12: Nin and I are the same age as well.
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, these young ones, these babies we're five years older
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 2: than you, my agent grandmother.
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 7: So it came out in ninety three, right, yeah, so
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 7: we would eat Yeah, yeah.
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 2: You would turn eight that year. Yeahh So nin actually
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 2: said that we should talk about the dedication in this
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 2: book because it is lovely. It says, for Harriet, the
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 2: light of her eyes is my light and the second
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 2: lights kept to lie.
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 7: Very romantic. Yeah, I mean, I know the guys talk
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 7: a lot about how the women of Wheel of Time
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 7: are inspired by Harriet in general, like how much she
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 7: impacted him when she when he was writing the book,
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 7: and I just I just love this. I mean, it
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 7: gives me all goose bumps and like makes me believe
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 7: in a bigger love than I currently have in my life.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 3: So yeah, his dedications are really sweet, especially if you
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 3: put them together, which I never have, but sometimes I
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 3: just glance at them and it's like so many ways
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 3: of saying that he, you know, loves his wife. After Yeah,
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 3: I think it. It's adorable, especially given that you know
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 3: the women characters sometimes make you wonder.
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 2: How much contention they maybe had, Like I think there
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 2: are prophecies at the beginning in the back, and we
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 2: could do those.
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 9: Oh dang, sure I like it.
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 2: With his coming are the dread fires born again, The
• 2:04:52
  Speaker 2: hills burn, and the lanterns here, the tides of men
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 2: run out, and the hours window, the waters pierced in
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: the veil of partying, raised dorms rumble beyond the horizon,
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: and the fires of Heaven perched the earth. There is
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 2: no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 2: pregnant from the prophecies of the dragon belief translated by
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 2: Indelia Baseilaine, first made and soared fast to raidn of
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: Hall could shown circle four hundred abne beautiful, beautiful noise.
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 12: So this is approximately shortly after Just roll with it.
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 2: Somebody wrote this.
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 3: Right right, four hundred ab is that after breaking?
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 5: Oh?
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 2: After breaking? I thought after after breaking? Oh, okay, so
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 2: it's a prop Yeah, I was super confused already.
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 7: Oh so it's before before the whole series happens, right,
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 7: I believe so.
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 2: Way before.
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 12: But yeah, it says fires of Heaven, So we know
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 12: where the title comes from.
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 2: I know that there was a discussion if this relates
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 2: to the raining down a fire during the battle with
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 2: Ravine or whatever. But in this it sounds or like
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 2: a metaphorical storms ramble beyond the horizon and the fires
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 2: off having perched the earth.
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 3: It's a really dramatic apocalyptic Ragnarok sort of feel. Oh yeah,
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 3: I love the no hope this side of death.
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 7: It's just like, whoa, that's heavy.
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it also means that there is hope on
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 2: the other side of death, which is actually a positive.
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 3: Thing, right, And it really is very relevant to Rand
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 3: right to die you or to live you must die,
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 3: like even match. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 3: The poetry is just so nice.
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really good.
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 9: Yeah, No one can really criticize our j for his
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 9: lack of prose because there isn't really.
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 3: Looks like we're going to talk about Rand.
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 2: I guess yeah. We thought we'd go through the storylines
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 2: a little bit divided.
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 9: I have a general note though, if you guys don't mind,
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 9: I kind of went through a bunch of wiki stuff,
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 9: like I'm sure you guys did too. But in this
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 9: book there are obviously a whole bunch of povs. But
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 9: I looked up the actual percentages and the top three
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 9: is Rand with twenty nine point nine percent of the
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 9: povs in the book, and I need is twenty nine
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 9: point six percent of the other povs in the book.
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 9: So already that's you know, half the book, just those two.
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 9: So I can understand why people kind of get fed
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 9: up with the circus stuff because it's a lot of
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 9: being Nin's head and you know, listening to her thoughts
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 9: all the time. And then the third percent is a
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 9: Gwain with seven point five percent of the point of views.
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 9: Everybody else is under seven percent of point of views
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 9: for the rest of the book. So it just kind
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 9: of goes to show how much you see O Rand
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 9: and his thoughts in his brain throughout the entire fires
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 9: in Heaven and in as well.
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and in the end it's it actually is. I mean,
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 2: the big battle actually goes simultaneously with Rand and with
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 2: Ninif So this makes sense, like I have both protagonists
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 2: of this book almost exactly the same time, Yeah, while
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 2: almost not meeting.
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 9: Yeah, And it was interesting because everybody else, like Agwain,
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 9: is seven point five percent perspective in fires a Heaven,
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 9: and then everybody else is under seven percent. Marine herself
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 9: has point five eight percent perspective in the entire book.
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 9: I think I also nerod it out like less than
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 9: one percent of her perspective.
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 2: She has almost nothing in the whole series, I think, yeah,
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 2: get into her head.
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 9: Very rarely, yeah, zero point five eight percent.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 2: Which makes us so intriguing in the beginning that you
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 2: don't really know what her deal is.
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 9: So we see her perspective in chapter seven and chapter
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 9: fifty two, and those are the only times we see
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 9: her perspective in the entire book, which is kind of dyes, yeah,
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 9: which I found crazy because it makes her death almost
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 9: more emphasize at the end because you really don't see
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 9: you only see her from really Rand's perspective or mostly
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 9: Rands Yeah, yeah, basically Rand's perspective, so it kind of
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 9: emphasizes it.
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, Rand in this book is in the
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 2: waste in the beginning. Then he leads the iel down
• 2:08:56
  Speaker 2: to the wet Lens. Then we have the second Battle
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 2: of Cairene, and after that he decides to pop a
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 2: cap of Ravine. I mean, he debates killing Sama first
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 2: and then he says nah, one after the other.
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 3: The rate at which he's like picking and choosing which
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 3: forsaken to take out is like, wow, God powers, Okay, yep.
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 2: Of course there's this progressing madness which I think has
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 2: been talked about in the podcast a lot. I don't
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 2: know if you think that we have anything to add
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 2: to that.
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 9: I don't think there's really much to add about the
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 9: madness itself. I do think that something that might contribute
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 9: a lot to his state of mind throughout this book
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 9: is the amount of pain that he's in because of
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 9: the wound in his side. I don't think that really
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 9: gets addressed as much as I think it might need
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 9: to be, because you look at animals and pain or
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 9: people in pain all the time. Dealing with chronic pain
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 9: of any kind, that's going to change the mood in
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 9: their personality quite a bit when dealing with situation. So
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 9: I just I don't know if that's something that I
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 9: kind of thought of a lot, because it's not really
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 9: discussed his wound too much until the battle really throughout
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 9: the book, but the entire book he's dealing with this gigantic,
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 9: throbbing wound in the side of his torso, so that's
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 9: just an interesting point that I thought, You know, pain
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 9: affects a lot of things when people make decisions.
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that always gets me. At the bonding scene, which
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 3: isn't in this book, but when the when the girls
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 3: all feel his pain and are like, dude, yeah, how
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 3: are you even functioning?
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 2: And I think even even Alana the dumb I don't thinking.
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 2: She mentions he's in so much pain.
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 3: I don't know he can take it right, and like
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 3: I can't do that, Like I have a freaking hangnail
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 3: or a headache, and I am like the world is over,
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 3: stop everything. And Randon's like, oh yeah, I'm like bleeding
• 2:10:43
  Speaker 3: constantly from this thing, and like I've got brands in
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 3: my hands and oh yeah, I like I have the
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 3: pressure of the whole world on my shoulders. It's like,
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 3: how do you even function sir? No wonder you're going nuts?
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 3: Like taint or no taint?
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 9: And his points of view are always like his thoughts
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 9: about what his next move is going to be, how
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 9: he's handling a certain decision, his conversations with people around him.
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 9: It's never talking about his feelings about stuff that you
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 9: never really see him be like oh this really hurts
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 9: today or whatever. You know, like it's never addressed by himself.
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 9: It's just something that you have to know as the
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 9: rear that's going on in the background, so hopefully need
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 9: be applied to why he decides to do half the
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 9: stuff he does. I thinks what.
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 7: That is rand for a lot of the lot of
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 7: the books about our feelings. I think there's there's something
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 7: about the no nonsense where he's been brought up in
• 2:11:35
  Speaker 7: mm hmmm, which definitely contributes to that, like not not
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 7: play up on what he thinks is tiny issues. And
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 7: also so we get this like headache gel thing in
• 2:11:48
  Speaker 7: India which you can put on your forehead and it's
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 7: supposed to help you like like calm your headache down
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 7: or like reduce the intensity of the head and it
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 7: burns so bad. It's like the worst thing to put
• 2:12:05
  Speaker 7: on your face. That essentially, like we laugh about it,
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 7: but I really think that the reasoning behind that is
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 7: that if that thing is burning so bad, you will
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 7: forget about your headache because now you'll be focused on
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 7: the burning that your forehead is so and I feel
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 7: like ran this facing essentially, you know, the biggest burning
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 7: that anyone can. He has the burden of saving the
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 7: world on his shoulders, and so maybe that makes him
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 7: minimize his own pain a little bit.
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 2: I think he's also on the void quite quite that's true. Yeah,
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 2: A bit of the time, which is basically about not
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 2: realizing your fee feelings and not letting them take over.
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 2: And yeah, somebody said, yeah, mambody said, it's the transition
• 2:12:51
  Speaker 2: to dart rant, which is basically his whole My feelings
• 2:12:54
  Speaker 2: don't matter. Pain is not important, even if it's other
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 2: people's pain at some point.
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 9: Yeah, And I guess he's also very distracted with the
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 9: politicking basically in regards to the ieal the whole time,
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 9: and then as well with the terns and the carry
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 9: in ands, like he's been trying to learn and what
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 9: am I trying to say here? He's been trying to
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 9: learn so much in such a short period of time
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 9: and try and enforce these rules and actions and make
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 9: you know, proper royal decisions.
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 9: These are things that he's trying to enact that Elaine
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 9: has been taught to do since birth, and she's been
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 9: trained to do since birth, which basically all royals are
• 2:13:30
  Speaker 9: trained to do since birth is basically play at the
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 9: game of houses and learn how to lead a country
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 9: or lead your house or lead your So that's a
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 9: constant strain on him as well. It's trying to process
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 9: all of these things in such a short amount of time.
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 9: And figure out how this whole diplomatic world works. So
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 9: that's probably also a huge distraction, I would think as well.
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 12: And I think when you just said it, he learns
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 12: a lot.
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 2: I think he learns a lot in this book, mainly
• 2:13:54
  Speaker 2: about letting other people maybe fight for him. It's a
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 2: struggle continuously, but here is at the forefront a lot
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 2: with the Maidens.
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 9: Yeah, it's really forced into his face that you have
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 9: to allow other people to do things for you.
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 12: Yeah, they're really really mad at him.
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 3: It's pretty much the only pain he ever acknowledges is
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 3: the pain of dead choice. That's like the only pain
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 3: that he lets get in his way.
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 9: Yeah, And you know, as the series goes on, he
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 9: almost that list he makes in his head. I almost
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 9: feel like he funnels whatever pain he feels physically, like
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 9: the wound in his side or anything else, he funnels
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 9: that into that list. It's like, oh, the list gets
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 9: even more stronger in his own brain, and the feelings
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 9: of what those women getting killed in his own brain
• 2:14:36
  Speaker 9: gets stronger because that's where he's forcing.
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 8: His pain to go.
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 2: In a sense, does it annoy you as much as
• 2:14:53
  Speaker 2: it does me that he makes such a difference between
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 2: dead men and dead women. Yeah, because it makes me
• 2:14:58
  Speaker 2: mad every single time this list thing comes up, or
• 2:15:01
  Speaker 2: the he doesn't want to maydans to fight think, I
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 2: don't get it.
• 2:15:05
  Speaker 12: I mean dead fighters and he kee values them so much.
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 2: It makes me so mad.
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 9: I understand his reasoning. I don't agree with it, but
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 9: I understand his reasoning, and I understand why he's choosing
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 9: to be blinded by what the maidens want because he's
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 9: trying to be protective and he's trying to keep everybody
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 9: safe that he possibly can. And I understand that feeling.
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 9: When you are such an ignorant, young twenty year old, right,
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 9: you have these base emotions that you're trying to still
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 9: grapple with. I don't know, maybe if he had more
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 9: experience than he was a forty year old around dealing
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 9: with all this, it'd be a bit different. Because he's
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 9: still so young. He's trained as a rural farm kit
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 9: to protect all those whom he protected. He can't protect themselves.
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 9: I mean if maybe not said in those words, but
• 2:15:46
  Speaker 9: that's something that's been instilled in him since he was
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 9: a kid. Everybody supports each other and protects each other
• 2:15:52
  Speaker 9: to make a community work. And how he sees that
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 9: is keeping everybody as safe as possible so that people
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 9: can keep living, to keep doing the work needed. So
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 9: I get why he does his actions. I don't agree
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 9: with them, and I think he should learn from people
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 9: around him and listen to their perspectives.
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 2: But I do understand to your question, Bambi, if we
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 2: think that he gets it here, I think you're referring
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 2: to getting that other people have to fight for him.
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 2: I don't think he really gets it here, but it
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 2: he gets forced to let them because the maidens just
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 2: take no shit. They beat him, actually beat him up
• 2:16:25
  Speaker 2: until he lets them go.
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 3: I think he also like pushes some of his like
• 2:16:29
  Speaker 3: Kelseyer saying, like he puts a lot of his pain
• 2:16:31
  Speaker 3: into that list. So it's kind of like it's kind
• 2:16:33
  Speaker 3: of like LTT in his head is like an expression
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 3: of his tension and madness. Like he's able to compartmentalize,
• 2:16:39
  Speaker 3: and it's not a very good way to do it,
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 3: but he's it's like that's that's how he can like
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 3: self harm in a way that gets them through the
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 3: next day.
• 2:16:46
  Speaker 9: Yeah, that's his coping mechanism in a sense.
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 2: What do you think if Matt had actually been kissed here.
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 2: I mean he almost died from Milindra and Milinda it
• 2:16:58
  Speaker 2: wasn't that Melinda y, Yeah, the chick. And then he
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 2: almost died from the Dark Hounds, and then he died
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 2: and didn't die from the attack on Ravine.
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 12: If Matt had died, do.
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 2: You think he would have made the list?
• 2:17:09
  Speaker 3: No, he would have gone on whatever the ancillary list
• 2:17:13
  Speaker 3: is that has mangan.
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 7: Maybe he wouldn't have gone on the list. But I
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 7: can't imagine. I'm not feeling guilty about it.
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 2: Maybe that would have broken the list because yeah, yeah,
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 2: just occurred to me.
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 12: Ladies, listen, bros.
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 2: List Yeah.
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 7: I mean, like how he feels about Iguen at the end,
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 7: and then she has to admonish him, like, hey, I'm
• 2:17:35
  Speaker 7: allowed to be a hero too, Like this is my decision.
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 7: I walked into this. Stop feeling guilty about it. Yeah.
• 2:17:41
  Speaker 2: And this is what we see in this book with
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 2: the Maidens, and we see it also with Brigida later
• 2:17:46
  Speaker 2: or not later, but later in our discussion when she
• 2:17:49
  Speaker 2: says to Nanive, don't take this away from me.
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 7: Yeah exactly.
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 9: Yeah, that whole perspective and that whole point is really
• 2:17:56
  Speaker 9: enforced from Brigida and from the Maidens being like, don't
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 9: take our choices away from us. Let us make our
• 2:18:01
  Speaker 9: own choices right for God's sake, man, get the point
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 9: in your head.
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 3: If Begina had gotten to lay that lecture onto Rant,
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 3: that would have been good. Brigetta should have been like, yo, yo,
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 3: lose get it together.
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she would have set him straight.
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 9: Yeah. We see that theme really force out of the
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 9: books onto us as a reader from various perspectives. Right, Yeah,
• 2:18:23
  Speaker 9: it's like it's the thing. Another if we're moving on
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 9: to Matt. Another thing that I kind of throughout this
• 2:18:32
  Speaker 9: whole book kind of realized about him is that only
• 2:18:35
  Speaker 9: a small handful of people have experienced his like his
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 9: memories and his reflections coming through, Like a very small
• 2:18:41
  Speaker 9: handful of people have seen him be those generals from
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 9: the past. So it's kind of interesting, like I find
• 2:18:48
  Speaker 9: that he grows in this book, but he also stays
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 9: very much the same. He stays very true to two
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 9: Rivers Matt still even though he has had he has
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 9: these new memories and new reflections and new experiences in
• 2:18:58
  Speaker 9: his head. It's only towards the end of the book
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 9: with the battle that we really see his public display
• 2:19:04
  Speaker 9: of those memories come through. I guess does that make sense?
• 2:19:07
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, he's still coming to terms with what it
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 3: means to have them.
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 2: It goes perfectly with that. With that quote I put
• 2:19:14
  Speaker 2: in there because I love that quote so much. It's
• 2:19:17
  Speaker 2: such a good quote.
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 9: I'm a gambler, a farm boy, and I'm here to
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 9: take Mandy your bloody army.
• 2:19:22
  Speaker 7: It's glorious.
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 9: It is glorious, and we like that it kind of
• 2:19:26
  Speaker 9: shows his art. But at the end where he actually,
• 2:19:29
  Speaker 9: you know, displays his true skills to land in the
• 2:19:33
  Speaker 9: tent and obviously through the battle itself collecting people as
• 2:19:36
  Speaker 9: he goes and finds himself in a thick of it,
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 9: it kind of subconsciously has him accept who he is
• 2:19:42
  Speaker 9: now and has him accept what's going on in his head.
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 9: I find, even if he's not willing to admit it
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 9: yet out loud.
• 2:19:49
  Speaker 3: BAMBV just made the best comment. It reveals his hands,
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 3: and I love that so much.
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 2: But I'm dumb.
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's true because I think this is the
• 2:20:02
  Speaker 3: book where like Matt is able to integrate with himself
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 3: the fact that he has all these memories and he
• 2:20:07
  Speaker 3: works out the timeline and he like creates the ability
• 2:20:11
  Speaker 3: to like know when he's in his own mind versus
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 3: another mind. Like this is the book where he finds
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 3: that balance that paren takes like a billion books deciding
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 3: as possible, like Matt kind of like this is the
• 2:20:20
  Speaker 3: book where he goes through that whole process, and we
• 2:20:22
  Speaker 3: don't see a lot of it until there's the conclusion
• 2:20:25
  Speaker 3: of him being like, I have to win a battle
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 3: just to get away from the battle or something.
• 2:20:32
  Speaker 7: Fine, I'll take charge so that we can get over
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 7: with this and I can go back to, you know,
• 2:20:37
  Speaker 7: carousing the maidens in the bar or whatever.
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 9: You guys can't make it work, I'm going to make
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 9: it work for you.
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 2: You want something done right, do it yourself.
• 2:20:45
  Speaker 7: Madt your delegation issues. He really doesn't know how to manage.
• 2:20:49
  Speaker 2: But he really likes teaching people's songs and dances, really
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 2: likes that.
• 2:20:54
  Speaker 3: Okay, this is the book where Jack in the Shadows
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 3: gets introduced. Right, it comes out because racist he's trying
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 3: to distract so from getting sewn up.
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 9: I think after the Yeah, yeah, he doesn't realize until
• 2:21:04
  Speaker 9: after that it's a very old song that no one
• 2:21:06
  Speaker 9: really remembered.
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so good though, we follow Lord Matt wherever
• 2:21:11
  Speaker 2: he leads.
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 3: I was so looking forward to us while being able
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 3: to sing it together.
• 2:21:15
  Speaker 7: I know, no, no, I cannot sing to save my life.
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 7: That's not happening.
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 3: Well, if we'd all been drunken in a room full
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 3: of two other people, yes, it would have been fine.
• 2:21:25
  Speaker 7: Probably, Yes, drunk kardiok is the best.
• 2:21:30
  Speaker 2: Indeed, Toloba karaoke is sad because it's either really bad
• 2:21:35
  Speaker 2: or you're really good, and then it's kind of boring.
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 9: Yeah. I used to work at a bar where we
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 9: had we had karaoke night every first Saturday of the month,
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 9: and there was always the two different groups. The one
• 2:21:46
  Speaker 9: group that was there just to get wasted and have
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 9: a hilarious time, and the other group that was there
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 9: too like they were auditioning for the voice or something.
• 2:21:55
  Speaker 9: You know. Obviously they were super skilled, but they would
• 2:21:58
  Speaker 9: drink diet Coach only. They'd sing for four hours and
• 2:22:01
  Speaker 9: they all pick like their ballads to sing just to
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 9: show off to the ten people who were sitting in
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 9: the bar that day. It was very bizarre. Karaoke to
• 2:22:09
  Speaker 9: me is very much just go out, have a lot
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 9: of drinks and have a really hilarious time. That's my
• 2:22:13
  Speaker 9: kind of karaoke.
• 2:22:15
  Speaker 7: Yes, so I have actually never been to karaoke.
• 2:22:20
  Speaker 3: To rectify that, I've known a lot about it, but
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 3: never actually done it.
• 2:22:25
  Speaker 9: Yeah, when you first experienced it, you have to have
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 9: at least three fireball shots under your belt.
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 2: Then you can get on stage and you have to
• 2:22:34
  Speaker 2: pick a song that, no matter how good you do,
• 2:22:37
  Speaker 2: you will how well you do it never sound good,
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 2: so you can only fuck it up. That's the trick, Gilad.
• 2:22:44
  Speaker 2: We did do stunt karaoke at one point. It was
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 2: really fun. But what you can't do is singing together
• 2:22:51
  Speaker 2: over discord because the lack just makes it really really weird.
• 2:22:56
  Speaker 2: Oh right, yeah, but we had we had a we
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 2: had some time where we had regular things, sing alongs
• 2:23:02
  Speaker 2: or something on the on the stump.
• 2:23:04
  Speaker 3: I remember that. Yeah, my kido classes had been meeting
• 2:23:07
  Speaker 3: online and it's funny getting counted through the exercises because
• 2:23:11
  Speaker 3: like you look at those video screens and none of
• 2:23:13
  Speaker 3: us are on time. We're all following the count but
• 2:23:16
  Speaker 3: like the video lags. It's just it's horrible.
• 2:23:19
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that's that's I'm just imagining that and laughing at it.
• 2:23:24
  Speaker 2: My partner actually had a birthday last week and he
• 2:23:28
  Speaker 2: did a virtual cake party and then we're like, I
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 2: think twenty one people in the call at one point,
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 2: including children, and then they decided to sing Happy Birthday.
• 2:23:37
  Speaker 2: And what happened was everybody realized that everybody else was
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 2: behind stopped, and then everybody it was oh, no, glorious.
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 9: Anarchy, just a mashed potato of a song.
• 2:23:48
  Speaker 2: It was so good. I also loved having twenty guests
• 2:23:53
  Speaker 2: and not having to clean up after. So I think
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 2: I'm doing this all the time now. Party there's actually
• 2:24:00
  Speaker 2: had a we actually had a face cam at a
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 2: cake cam for everybody to see the cake.
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 9: Oh nice.
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was good.
• 2:24:06
  Speaker 9: That's genius.
• 2:24:07
  Speaker 3: That's adorable.
• 2:24:08
  Speaker 2: And now we're making the Tangents of Heaven title doing
• 2:24:12
  Speaker 2: it rout.
• 2:24:15
  Speaker 9: I do love them. I'm just gonna plug Patreon and
• 2:24:18
  Speaker 9: the Discord here real quick, because we do have the
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 9: Stump channel for those who have no idea what that
• 2:24:22
  Speaker 9: even means. It's a voice channel in Discord that you
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 9: can click into if you're a Patreon, Patreon, patron, whatever
• 2:24:29
  Speaker 9: the word, that you can click into and chat with
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 9: other patrons in the discord. So it's kind of sweet.
• 2:24:34
  Speaker 9: That you can actually talk in person, kind of like
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 9: we are now with other discord users and walk fans.
• 2:24:39
  Speaker 9: So if you're debating whether or not to become a
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 9: supporter of what spoilers, that's a really good incentive.
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 2: You should talk about stumping ours when we're While we're
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 2: on it a right, we have stump in ours where
• 2:24:52
  Speaker 2: all of us nerds have special interests and tell them
• 2:24:54
  Speaker 2: to each other.
• 2:24:57
  Speaker 9: Oh said, come to the stump.
• 2:25:00
  Speaker 12: Hence hence the weird name.
• 2:25:02
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, because and the name Stump comes from the
• 2:25:05
  Speaker 3: Great Stump from O Gear. And the videos are available
• 2:25:09
  Speaker 3: on YouTube. You look up stump in Ours. We have
• 2:25:11
  Speaker 3: a whole YouTube channel where I put of the things.
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 2: No bomby Your two hour climate change ramble with Jillier
• 2:25:19
  Speaker 2: was awesome, dude, don't yeh apologize for that?
• 2:25:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the a two hour discussion from the East coast
• 2:25:25
  Speaker 3: of the US and freaking Australia. They were both at
• 2:25:27
  Speaker 3: inconvenient times a day and it was this amazing discussion
• 2:25:30
  Speaker 3: about why climate change is a goddamn mess. And I
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 3: loved it so much, really good And I don't edit
• 2:25:36
  Speaker 3: those by the way, guys, those are straight up just
• 2:25:39
  Speaker 3: the raw, the raw audio. I just slap a video
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 3: onto it so it can go on YouTube.
• 2:25:44
  Speaker 9: I had no idea they were on YouTube. That is sweet.
• 2:25:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I made a YouTube channel, Google account, like the
• 2:25:49
  Speaker 3: whole thing.
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 9: That's cool. That's sweet.
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 3: So you don't have to catch them live. You can
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 3: catch them later.
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 7: I mean, if you're vaxxing poet take about being on
• 2:25:58
  Speaker 7: the Discord, I cannot that. I think I joined over
• 2:26:02
  Speaker 7: a year ago, and leg it, it's changed my life.
• 2:26:06
  Speaker 7: Like I don't then, Yeah, I don't think i'd be
• 2:26:09
  Speaker 7: able to get through this this weird time without everyone
• 2:26:12
  Speaker 7: on Discord in general, like people have been so supportive,
• 2:26:16
  Speaker 7: so motivating, like so encouraging. I just I feel like
• 2:26:19
  Speaker 7: I've made some best friends, even though I don't know
• 2:26:21
  Speaker 7: their real names or faces.
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 9: You know, it's such a cool world, hey right, I.
• 2:26:28
  Speaker 7: Mean it's so it's it's such a supportive community, and
• 2:26:30
  Speaker 7: some of that changes as you meet people on Spiler
• 2:26:33
  Speaker 7: Coon and Jordan con But I wouldn't even have gone.
• 2:26:36
  Speaker 2: To turn out there actually assholes.
• 2:26:38
  Speaker 7: Yeah exactly, Anna, you would know. That's exactly why I
• 2:26:46
  Speaker 7: went all the way to Germany to Meetana Sick a
• 2:26:49
  Speaker 7: few months after spoil happened.
• 2:26:51
  Speaker 12: As well when she says all the way, she already
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 12: wasn't there.
• 2:26:54
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that's an Anna. Let's pretend it was just to
• 2:27:00
  Speaker 7: meet you. Okay, Okay, nobody knows. It was my sister's
• 2:27:05
  Speaker 7: PhD defense. She was completing her pH D. That's why
• 2:27:07
  Speaker 7: I had gone to But.
• 2:27:08
  Speaker 12: She jumped on the train, came over to me, and
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 12: I made her breakfast.
• 2:27:12
  Speaker 7: And it was amazing. It were what a day. It
• 2:27:14
  Speaker 7: was so fantastic, even though it was rainy, but like
• 2:27:17
  Speaker 7: none of that mattered.
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 2: Right, And we went back to the I took you
• 2:27:21
  Speaker 2: back to the railway station and then we sat down
• 2:27:23
  Speaker 2: at a cafe and then we started to talk. We
• 2:27:25
  Speaker 2: left time, actually, and she almost missed her train. I
• 2:27:28
  Speaker 2: had to sprint through the station, and.
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 7: Like, these are the kind of memories you make that
• 2:27:31
  Speaker 7: go in your memoir and I just I couldn't have
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 7: made it without joining discord. So yeah, yeah, end of
• 2:27:39
  Speaker 7: my vacxing poetic statement.
• 2:27:42
  Speaker 2: I can add to that. I think that the whole
• 2:27:44
  Speaker 2: online community really helps me in these days because actually
• 2:27:47
  Speaker 2: nothing changes in that because I don't see those people
• 2:27:51
  Speaker 2: or you people anyway every day, so it stays exactly
• 2:27:54
  Speaker 2: the same, and that helps it's the kind of stability
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 2: mm hmm.
• 2:27:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, so much has not changed and changed. Discord
• 2:28:03
  Speaker 3: is a nice point of constancy mm hmm, even though
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 3: there's definitely you know, Discord obviously is discussing all of
• 2:28:09
  Speaker 3: the changes, but at least it's the same people and
• 2:28:11
  Speaker 3: the same access to the same people, more access in
• 2:28:13
  Speaker 3: some case because people are home more often.
• 2:28:16
  Speaker 7: So Super ch again, I had the best conversation with
• 2:28:20
  Speaker 7: Tuper Chicken when we were doing the walk that radio
• 2:28:24
  Speaker 7: and oh gear Lad, oh so amazing. So like my
• 2:28:28
  Speaker 7: heart was full.
• 2:28:28
  Speaker 3: After that, yeah, meaning super Chicken was awesome. And then yeah,
• 2:28:32
  Speaker 3: that part where we all got random tattoos together.
• 2:28:34
  Speaker 9: Oh no, so yes, we are not a cult.
• 2:28:39
  Speaker 3: We're a little bit of a cult.
• 2:28:42
  Speaker 2: Us. I did not get the tattoo, though you will
• 2:28:46
  Speaker 2: just in my heart.
• 2:28:48
  Speaker 3: Well, some of us didn't get in the day of
• 2:28:50
  Speaker 3: you know, like they keep trickling in. I got mine
• 2:28:53
  Speaker 3: like two weeks later.
• 2:28:54
  Speaker 9: No, it started with four of us going out at
• 2:28:57
  Speaker 9: Spoiler Pond itself and getting tattoos done together in a room,
• 2:29:02
  Speaker 9: and then it branched out to like another ten plus
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 9: people or something like that within a week or two
• 2:29:06
  Speaker 9: after Spoiler kon happened. So now there's this whole album
• 2:29:09
  Speaker 9: of a bunch of us with wheel of time, either
• 2:29:12
  Speaker 9: like the Nodding Raven one of the chapter headings, or
• 2:29:14
  Speaker 9: like the event soar Lea or whatever else. So yeah,
• 2:29:17
  Speaker 9: there's a whole bunch of us now that have forever
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 9: ink on our bodies.
• 2:29:20
  Speaker 3: I'm totally planning on getting the other raven. I only
• 2:29:22
  Speaker 3: got one of the Nodding Ravens because I have all
• 2:29:25
  Speaker 3: the intentions of getting the other one, hopefully in group
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 3: or at least as a memory for another time we
• 2:29:30
  Speaker 3: all got physically together.
• 2:29:32
  Speaker 9: Yeah. I'd never been part of an online server or
• 2:29:35
  Speaker 9: online community before joining this discord, so all of this
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 9: was very new. Like I lurked and listened to the
• 2:29:41
  Speaker 9: podcast for I don't know how long before I'm like, yeah,
• 2:29:43
  Speaker 9: you know what, maybe I'll check out this discord thing.
• 2:29:46
  Speaker 2: And two years ago with skink weird weird strange people
• 2:29:50
  Speaker 2: on the internet, and yeah, then in October, I flew
• 2:29:52
  Speaker 2: to the United States without knowing anybody there.
• 2:29:54
  Speaker 9: So on September this discord is crazy things to you.
• 2:29:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely not on my own.
• 2:29:59
  Speaker 12: I have to say, just yeah, what's one of the
• 2:30:02
  Speaker 12: weirdest things I've done.
• 2:30:03
  Speaker 2: In my life.
• 2:30:04
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 2:30:05
  Speaker 7: I mean even I when I was telling people who
• 2:30:07
  Speaker 7: I'm flying to Portland to mate a bunch of strangers
• 2:30:10
  Speaker 7: I met online, everyone was like, oh, give us the
• 2:30:13
  Speaker 7: address of the hostel just in case you disappeared. I
• 2:30:16
  Speaker 7: can't even imagine how what Anna like, Oh, I'm flying
• 2:30:19
  Speaker 7: halfway across the world. Seriously, Anna, You're all kinds of
• 2:30:24
  Speaker 7: good crazy.
• 2:30:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you?
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 3: So you want to circle it back to uh the circus?
• 2:30:31
  Speaker 5: Oh sure, okay?
• 2:30:33
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Prekata joins the cast with a bang.
• 2:30:37
  Speaker 7: Yep. My favorite part. There's a reason I'm called nin.
• 2:30:42
  Speaker 4: Is this?
• 2:30:42
  Speaker 3: Is this your why you went for a nan?
• 2:30:45
  Speaker 7: Yes? I was actually ninive when I joined the discord.
• 2:30:48
  Speaker 2: And then you know the same.
• 2:30:50
  Speaker 7: What's the not warning? Just the same message that everyone
• 2:30:53
  Speaker 7: gets off to their names from, you know, the name
• 2:30:57
  Speaker 7: in the books. So I anyway, like, I use this everywhere.
• 2:31:01
  Speaker 7: This is my gamer tag and nobody can pronounce it,
• 2:31:03
  Speaker 7: so everyone just says nin anyway. So I was like, yeah,
• 2:31:06
  Speaker 7: I might as well just make that my standard become
• 2:31:10
  Speaker 7: nin Wait wait wait do.
• 2:31:11
  Speaker 2: They say nin anyway or do they say nine?
• 2:31:14
  Speaker 11: No?
• 2:31:14
  Speaker 7: Well that too.
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 2: Actually, once on Twitch that's actually how you can pronounce
• 2:31:22
  Speaker 2: it nin and you.
• 2:31:23
  Speaker 7: Can totally one twitch twitch. This streamer called me my
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 7: neighbl because she couldn't understand what nine like. It was
• 2:31:31
  Speaker 7: ninive al that's what I had put my twitch name as,
• 2:31:35
  Speaker 7: and she was like my neighbor. I always thought she
• 2:31:38
  Speaker 7: was called nine me too, me too all my life.
• 2:31:42
  Speaker 7: I called her ninave before actually the podcast corrected me. Wow.
• 2:31:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because of the because of the Asurian connection. I
• 2:31:49
  Speaker 2: think that idiot of the like and everything.
• 2:31:52
  Speaker 7: So the best thing that happened at Spoiler Con was
• 2:31:55
  Speaker 7: I dressed up as Min for the costume thing and
• 2:31:58
  Speaker 7: Seth was like nin min nim mimi, Okay, back to
• 2:32:12
  Speaker 7: back in the Circus you like this?
• 2:32:15
  Speaker 2: You like this story because in the Google doc actually
• 2:32:18
  Speaker 2: put in the circus girls. Why do people hate the
• 2:32:20
  Speaker 2: storyline so much?
• 2:32:21
  Speaker 9: You don't because it's almost thirty percent of the book
• 2:32:24
  Speaker 9: in niney's head, that's what.
• 2:32:26
  Speaker 3: I just love it.
• 2:32:28
  Speaker 9: And for some reason, a bunch of dudes you read
• 2:32:31
  Speaker 9: fantasy don't like being a female's head. Fancy that.
• 2:32:36
  Speaker 2: Ah.
• 2:32:38
  Speaker 3: I have waxed and waned on how I feel about
• 2:32:41
  Speaker 3: the circus scenes, Like the first few times I went
• 2:32:43
  Speaker 3: through the series, loved it, next several times got really bored,
• 2:32:47
  Speaker 3: and like now I'm kind of coming back around to
• 2:32:49
  Speaker 3: enjoying it. Like I just have so many feelings about
• 2:32:52
  Speaker 3: it because like the way I describe it as, like
• 2:32:54
  Speaker 3: the first couple of books like are very like action packed,
• 2:32:58
  Speaker 3: normal fantasy, and then like a slog quote, is the
• 2:33:02
  Speaker 3: part where like Jordan just puts you in the Google
• 2:33:04
  Speaker 3: car with the three sixty like camera and you can
• 2:33:07
  Speaker 3: just look at the whole world and all of its
• 2:33:09
  Speaker 3: nitty gritty, boring detail right for books and books and books,
• 2:33:14
  Speaker 3: which like, if you love the world, it's awesome because
• 2:33:17
  Speaker 3: you get to see all of these like little bits
• 2:33:19
  Speaker 3: and pieces and details. But if you just want to,
• 2:33:22
  Speaker 3: like see how Rand wins the last battle, then it's
• 2:33:25
  Speaker 3: like any book now would be great.
• 2:33:28
  Speaker 2: I really like it. And yeah, they yes, they do
• 2:33:30
  Speaker 2: snack at each other a lot, but I think it
• 2:33:33
  Speaker 2: makes so much sense, like you understand their frustration in
• 2:33:37
  Speaker 2: this situation, so I don't mind it. I don't think
• 2:33:40
  Speaker 2: it makes them bad people.
• 2:33:42
  Speaker 9: No, And I kind of like watching Ninety's throughout the
• 2:33:46
  Speaker 9: Circus chapters and I guess the whole book in general,
• 2:33:48
  Speaker 9: because like she when you think about it, as you know,
• 2:33:51
  Speaker 9: from a Two Rivers downpoint, and her and her whole
• 2:33:54
  Speaker 9: wisdom stuff aside, Like she's the oldest of the group
• 2:33:57
  Speaker 9: of kids that left the Two Rivers, and she is
• 2:34:00
  Speaker 9: the only person who reflects back to that as much
• 2:34:03
  Speaker 9: as she does right, Like she's the only person who
• 2:34:04
  Speaker 9: thinks back to their time of you know, being in
• 2:34:07
  Speaker 9: Emmon's field and switching bottoms and changing diapers, Like, she
• 2:34:10
  Speaker 9: reflects back a lot. Like she's very maternal, and you
• 2:34:12
  Speaker 9: see a lot of maternalness whatever that word is, to
• 2:34:16
  Speaker 9: come out in her in this book. And I think
• 2:34:18
  Speaker 9: it's those little sparks of her reminiscing that kind of
• 2:34:23
  Speaker 9: makes her a lot more relatable to me, because I mean,
• 2:34:26
  Speaker 9: as stubborn and forthright and angry and whatever she is,
• 2:34:31
  Speaker 9: she still has that maternal protected instinct of the group
• 2:34:34
  Speaker 9: that left, And I find like throughout the book and
• 2:34:36
  Speaker 9: throughout the series, she's the only one who really draws
• 2:34:38
  Speaker 9: back to those experiences when they were kids. Like some
• 2:34:41
  Speaker 9: of them, like Randall look back like being a sheep
• 2:34:43
  Speaker 9: hurder or they'll look back to times and experiences, but
• 2:34:46
  Speaker 9: they won't reflect on the feelings they had. I find
• 2:34:49
  Speaker 9: nine really reflects back on her feelings about being from
• 2:34:52
  Speaker 9: there more than the others do.
• 2:34:53
  Speaker 3: That's a good point.
• 2:34:55
  Speaker 2: She also left to take them back. She literally said
• 2:34:58
  Speaker 2: to everybody, wait, don't I'll be back in a second
• 2:35:01
  Speaker 2: with these people. And she never managed that.
• 2:35:04
  Speaker 9: Mama Bear coming out right like, no, no, I gotta
• 2:35:06
  Speaker 9: collect my clubs. I gotta go bring them back.
• 2:35:08
  Speaker 2: She never managed that. Actually, she loses like one after another,
• 2:35:11
  Speaker 2: and in the end she hangs out mostly with Elaine,
• 2:35:14
  Speaker 2: which she didn't set out to protect.
• 2:35:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she's got that guilt.
• 2:35:20
  Speaker 2: Who's possibly not super easy to be with. Don't get
• 2:35:23
  Speaker 2: me wrong, I love Elaine. I'll protect her against internet
• 2:35:27
  Speaker 2: people to my last breath. But still I would not
• 2:35:31
  Speaker 2: want to.
• 2:35:31
  Speaker 12: Be shut in a circus wagon with her or with nineties.
• 2:35:36
  Speaker 9: God no, yeah, literal nail scratching cathetes.
• 2:35:52
  Speaker 3: And that really randomly reminds me so the scene or
• 2:35:55
  Speaker 3: where they talk about her Elaine cooking as though she's
• 2:35:58
  Speaker 3: in the palace. Fuck, did a princess actually learn how
• 2:36:03
  Speaker 3: to be a five star chef? This is a completely
• 2:36:05
  Speaker 3: unrelated complaint, but like, how would she know how to
• 2:36:08
  Speaker 3: manifest the fancy food that she's eating? Her whole life.
• 2:36:10
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe maybe her mother is one of these people
• 2:36:13
  Speaker 2: who say, yeah, you're a princess, but I don't know.
• 2:36:15
  Speaker 2: Once a week you have to do chores in the palace,
• 2:36:18
  Speaker 2: And maybe she just liked to cook, and so she
• 2:36:20
  Speaker 2: asked the cooks and they indulged her.
• 2:36:22
  Speaker 3: Basically, I'll take that head canon.
• 2:36:24
  Speaker 9: Yeah, it's a hobby, right, And maybe I imagine her
• 2:36:27
  Speaker 9: training involved all kinds of stuff, all kinds of extensive Yeah.
• 2:36:30
  Speaker 2: I think her extensive training would have incorporated something like,
• 2:36:34
  Speaker 2: you have to see what the people, the normal people
• 2:36:36
  Speaker 2: in the in the palace do. Remember that mor Gaze
• 2:36:40
  Speaker 2: likes to hang out with the common people in disguise,
• 2:36:43
  Speaker 2: So I think she wouldn't She wouldn't want her daughter
• 2:36:46
  Speaker 2: to be completely shut off from everything, and so she
• 2:36:49
  Speaker 2: would let her hang out in the kitchen and everything.
• 2:36:51
  Speaker 2: And if she likes it, Wow, she really likes sweet
• 2:36:54
  Speaker 2: satanasas right.
• 2:36:56
  Speaker 7: And also, Morgaze knew that she was going to go
• 2:36:58
  Speaker 7: to the tower, right, because that was the thing that happens.
• 2:37:01
  Speaker 7: And Margaze has been there herself. She knows how you
• 2:37:04
  Speaker 7: gotta get down on your knees in the kitchen and
• 2:37:06
  Speaker 7: all that, not not not in the dirty way, but
• 2:37:09
  Speaker 7: well maybe the dortyway. So she was like, you know,
• 2:37:15
  Speaker 7: this could be sort of this could be some sort
• 2:37:17
  Speaker 7: of prep for going to the tower.
• 2:37:19
  Speaker 3: I had never thought of that. Thank you, ladies. Let
• 2:37:22
  Speaker 3: me establish that Cannon.
• 2:37:25
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to say, how dumb it is that
• 2:37:27
  Speaker 2: they have to get on their knees and scrub the
• 2:37:28
  Speaker 2: floors every day, and they also make them wear white dresses.
• 2:37:32
  Speaker 7: Yeah, oh my god, yeah that's crazy. Well they do
• 2:37:35
  Speaker 7: have magic to clean the dresses though, so do you.
• 2:37:38
  Speaker 2: Think they do?
• 2:37:39
  Speaker 3: You think they would use magic to clean the floor though, Yeah.
• 2:37:41
  Speaker 9: Nah, that wouldn't teach the lessons needed.
• 2:37:43
  Speaker 7: No, that won't build the character needed.
• 2:37:47
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't think they're allowed to anytime I think
• 2:37:51
  Speaker 9: of building character or that phrase, I think it was
• 2:37:53
  Speaker 9: Calvin Hoffs.
• 2:37:54
  Speaker 7: Yes, yes, every.
• 2:37:59
  Speaker 12: Time.
• 2:37:59
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, calvinstad is uh my dad looked up
• 2:38:02
  Speaker 3: to kalvinstad.
• 2:38:06
  Speaker 9: What else about the circus? I mostly just have notes
• 2:38:09
  Speaker 9: on nin.
• 2:38:10
  Speaker 2: The reappearance of Uno, which is a big upside.
• 2:38:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah oh yeah right, because this is this is the
• 2:38:17
  Speaker 3: whole scene where Nineve tells the prophet to go stick
• 2:38:20
  Speaker 3: a spoon up his ass and comes away with China
• 2:38:22
  Speaker 3: and bodyguards.
• 2:38:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:38:26
  Speaker 3: The Prophet, Yeah, God, the Prophet like is one of
• 2:38:30
  Speaker 3: the most cartoonish villains in this whole thing, and he's
• 2:38:34
  Speaker 3: so ineffective. He could have been such, he could have
• 2:38:38
  Speaker 3: been a powerful thing.
• 2:38:40
  Speaker 9: It's a very strange like addition to the story, you know,
• 2:38:44
  Speaker 9: Like I've never quite when I've always read over the
• 2:38:48
  Speaker 9: prophet stuff as kind of more skimmed it. I've never
• 2:38:50
  Speaker 9: really understood, like I didn't really tie it into the
• 2:38:52
  Speaker 9: rest of the series as much as maybe I should have,
• 2:38:54
  Speaker 9: because it never really seemed too naturally for me.
• 2:38:57
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 2:38:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he's supposed to mirror this other kind
• 2:39:02
  Speaker 2: of evil, which Andorral is an or shadow logo is
• 2:39:06
  Speaker 2: an example of this. You want to do good and
• 2:39:08
  Speaker 2: then you go over the more event horizon, then you
• 2:39:11
  Speaker 2: become bad approached back from the other side of something.
• 2:39:14
  Speaker 2: But yeah, he's just, oh he's awful. I hate him.
• 2:39:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was necessary I think for there to be
• 2:39:21
  Speaker 3: like a Zelot because Randon does have so much religious overtones,
• 2:39:24
  Speaker 3: even in a world that doesn't have religion, so like
• 2:39:26
  Speaker 3: we needed someone to be a Zelot.
• 2:39:28
  Speaker 9: But yeah, it is a good it's a good, perfect
• 2:39:31
  Speaker 9: example of good intentions trying to be gained through bad action.
• 2:39:35
  Speaker 9: The means justify the ends kind of thing where the
• 2:39:37
  Speaker 9: means are very evil.
• 2:39:39
  Speaker 3: Right, and like super ineffective too. Hm, he doesn't really
• 2:39:44
  Speaker 3: even create. I mean, like the white clothes at least
• 2:39:46
  Speaker 3: are an effective military force. The prophets mobs.
• 2:39:49
  Speaker 9: Are a mob.
• 2:39:52
  Speaker 3: And then Bamby is pointing out that there was the
• 2:39:54
  Speaker 3: whole He was probably being brainwashed by the forsaken or
• 2:39:57
  Speaker 3: compulsed by the forsaken to be extra ineffectively problematic.
• 2:40:02
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, yeah, but I don't feel he had to.
• 2:40:07
  Speaker 9: So is that why you think maybe he has that
• 2:40:09
  Speaker 9: crazy look in his eye more than not because everybody
• 2:40:13
  Speaker 9: notices how almost like glazed over his eyes. Are you
• 2:40:17
  Speaker 9: think that's you know, and like we see everybody who
• 2:40:20
  Speaker 9: is like under compulsion.
• 2:40:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he also doesn't eat.
• 2:40:26
  Speaker 7: I feel like, is this a conversation that's happened before?
• 2:40:30
  Speaker 7: Is this one of those uh was uh cooler in
• 2:40:34
  Speaker 7: cooler than Yeah? Is this similar to the Kolodin influenced
• 2:40:39
  Speaker 7: by the Forsaken sort of discussion that that is.
• 2:40:42
  Speaker 3: A good parallel, Yeah, because it's hard to tell because
• 2:40:45
  Speaker 3: you have an asshole who's already maybe mentally unstable, goes
• 2:40:49
  Speaker 3: through some traumatic shit and then appears to be manipulated
• 2:40:53
  Speaker 3: by the forsaken. Where do you draw the line on
• 2:40:56
  Speaker 3: pulling out the forsaken from the rest of it?
• 2:40:58
  Speaker 7: Exactly?
• 2:40:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's one an effect if villain would
• 2:41:01
  Speaker 2: do find someone who's easy to push over the.
• 2:41:04
  Speaker 3: Edge, pushing more games to be a harder, as we
• 2:41:07
  Speaker 3: see with Rovin.
• 2:41:08
  Speaker 12: Yeah, we can't talk about We can't talk about that,
• 2:41:10
  Speaker 12: by the way.
• 2:41:11
  Speaker 7: Yep. And maybe they didn't, maybe he wasn't under compulsion,
• 2:41:13
  Speaker 7: but maybe they started him on the path and he
• 2:41:17
  Speaker 7: just he was so crazy that he just needed a
• 2:41:19
  Speaker 7: nudge to walk down that path.
• 2:41:21
  Speaker 3: Anyway, Yeah, flicker, Flicker also fucked with him.
• 2:41:25
  Speaker 7: Mm hmm, exactly. Yep.
• 2:41:27
  Speaker 9: You take that breaking point and then just amplify it,
• 2:41:29
  Speaker 9: add a little couple seeds here and there, and see the.
• 2:41:32
  Speaker 2: First the first time we meet him, he has this
• 2:41:34
  Speaker 2: unreasonable hate towards Ram just because his hair is red, basically,
• 2:41:39
  Speaker 2: which shows that he has some PTSD and r asshole
• 2:41:43
  Speaker 2: syndrome already. Probably wasn't hard for him to go over this. Yeah,
• 2:41:49
  Speaker 2: and yeah, I think enough enough has been said about
• 2:41:51
  Speaker 2: his tactics.
• 2:41:52
  Speaker 3: Of helping the poor by making more keep the poor. Yeah, yeah,
• 2:41:59
  Speaker 3: I know he does start very important war though, I
• 2:42:01
  Speaker 3: mean the Gallade and and the where the Prophet and
• 2:42:05
  Speaker 3: the White Cloaks meet. I mean that ends up being
• 2:42:08
  Speaker 3: an important like conflict for pushing stuff around in that region.
• 2:42:12
  Speaker 3: I mean it probably helps destabilize the throne. So that way,
• 2:42:16
  Speaker 3: Aleander ends up coming along with Perin later, Like he's
• 2:42:19
  Speaker 3: a good stick to stir the pot with.
• 2:42:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. Yeah, a lot of pots getting stirred
• 2:42:25
  Speaker 2: in this book. A lot happens that has big effects later.
• 2:42:29
  Speaker 3: That's another reason why it's sloggy, right, is because it's
• 2:42:31
  Speaker 3: setting you up for books later.
• 2:42:35
  Speaker 2: It does set up a lot.
• 2:42:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:42:36
  Speaker 7: I know you added this in the conclusion, but I
• 2:42:38
  Speaker 7: feel like that's a point that will come up again
• 2:42:40
  Speaker 7: and again. Like it is the book that shifts the
• 2:42:44
  Speaker 7: story into next year, like it does. It spits up
• 2:42:47
  Speaker 7: so many things.
• 2:42:48
  Speaker 9: Yeah, plot wise and character wise.
• 2:42:49
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 2:42:50
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 2:42:51
  Speaker 2: I think we just mentioned Margay, so we can go
• 2:42:54
  Speaker 2: on to her right now. Yeah, she has a backbone
• 2:42:57
  Speaker 2: of steel, oh man.
• 2:43:00
  Speaker 3: To be resistant to a forsaken's compulsion at all, much
• 2:43:03
  Speaker 3: less to the degree she pulls it off. It's like, girl,
• 2:43:08
  Speaker 3: it's so.
• 2:43:09
  Speaker 9: Hard to be in her head, just that innate will
• 2:43:12
  Speaker 9: you just know, you know, there's a huge force there.
• 2:43:15
  Speaker 3: Her strength of personality.
• 2:43:16
  Speaker 2: I think we all agree that these books have some
• 2:43:19
  Speaker 2: rape centered storylines which are not done very well. I
• 2:43:22
  Speaker 2: think this one is done really well because it's never gratuitous.
• 2:43:26
  Speaker 2: We don't ever see anything happening, but what we see
• 2:43:29
  Speaker 2: is how much it fucks with her head and the
• 2:43:32
  Speaker 2: whole guilt she keeps on having, which she has about
• 2:43:36
  Speaker 2: the state of her of her country. But it's a
• 2:43:40
  Speaker 2: it's a good analogy for survivor's guilt, or the guilt
• 2:43:43
  Speaker 2: that many survivors of sexual violence have for being tainted
• 2:43:47
  Speaker 2: no pun intended by the whole thing. And she never
• 2:43:51
  Speaker 2: sheds this. I mean, it's one of the reasons that
• 2:43:53
  Speaker 2: she doesn't want to be queen ever again, which was
• 2:43:55
  Speaker 2: her complete Her entire identity was tied to being this queen.
• 2:43:59
  Speaker 2: And she can't do this because this guy took it
• 2:44:02
  Speaker 2: from her.
• 2:44:02
  Speaker 9: Yeah, when you go through a trauma like that, you
• 2:44:05
  Speaker 9: then feel unfit to accomplish many tasks that you might
• 2:44:09
  Speaker 9: have previously thought you could. And Morges is a perfect
• 2:44:13
  Speaker 9: example of that. And Nannieve is also an example of that,
• 2:44:16
  Speaker 9: all the trauma that she goes through in Teleranriod and
• 2:44:20
  Speaker 9: seeing how women deal with trauma and then try to
• 2:44:22
  Speaker 9: overcome it by telling themselves that they shouldn't feel guilty,
• 2:44:26
  Speaker 9: but it affects them anyways. It's a lot of it's
• 2:44:28
  Speaker 9: a lot of parallels, but they handle it a little
• 2:44:31
  Speaker 9: bit differently.
• 2:44:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:44:32
  Speaker 2: Blaydon Stormchat just mentioned how even after the soul traumatic thing,
• 2:44:36
  Speaker 2: how competent she acts when she is in the White
• 2:44:38
  Speaker 2: Cloak Stronghold later, which is not in this book, I think,
• 2:44:42
  Speaker 2: but admirable absolutely, that's next.
• 2:44:44
  Speaker 5: Book, right, yeah, But she starts on this journey, she.
• 2:44:47
  Speaker 2: Flees came then she collects her rack tech band of
• 2:44:52
  Speaker 2: like they actually sound to me like a D and
• 2:44:54
  Speaker 2: D group, right yeah, Yeah, this combination of different people
• 2:45:01
  Speaker 2: who really don't get along. And then you have Leni
• 2:45:04
  Speaker 2: with all the one liners. I put one at the
• 2:45:08
  Speaker 2: best one. It's the best one. Yes, it's at my age.
• 2:45:12
  Speaker 2: Even if I make it up, it's still an old saying.
• 2:45:15
  Speaker 2: It's yeah.
• 2:45:16
  Speaker 5: Leani is the bard, right, Lennie is amazing.
• 2:45:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I think it's interesting to see more Gazes,
• 2:45:22
  Speaker 3: like how she handles all of that because she's one
• 2:45:25
  Speaker 3: of the most powerful, confident, strong willed women in literally
• 2:45:29
  Speaker 3: the entire articulated world of the books. And she is
• 2:45:34
  Speaker 3: broken so much and has so much processing to do,
• 2:45:38
  Speaker 3: and yeah, it's hard to read her stuff, but like
• 2:45:40
  Speaker 3: it's kind of like, well, if a queen can get
• 2:45:42
  Speaker 3: brought that low, then like anyone can, right, and if
• 2:45:46
  Speaker 3: she can pick herself back up. It reminds me of
• 2:45:49
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you guys have watched Jessica Jones,
• 2:45:52
  Speaker 3: but no, okay, well, I only watched it because I
• 2:45:55
  Speaker 3: read so much stuff about how excellent it was. It
• 2:45:57
  Speaker 3: depicting like the aftermath trauma and people getting over their
• 2:46:02
  Speaker 3: trauma without it being gratuitous like horror porn and her
• 2:46:06
  Speaker 3: violence porn or whatever, and I watched it and I
• 2:46:08
  Speaker 3: would agree with it like it's it reminds me of her,
• 2:46:11
  Speaker 3: Like Jessica and more Gaze are not incredibly dissimilar characters
• 2:46:15
  Speaker 3: in how they like magical overpowering forces against them and
• 2:46:20
  Speaker 3: they just drink their way through it and figure it out.
• 2:46:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know how much more Gage drinks her way
• 2:46:24
  Speaker 3: through it, but it's it's interesting to see how she
• 2:46:28
  Speaker 3: processes it and like caw Brianna and Lenny respond to
• 2:46:32
  Speaker 3: her trauma and like the shit she goes through. Particularly,
• 2:46:35
  Speaker 3: she doesn't really talk about Ravin much with anybody, but
• 2:46:38
  Speaker 3: she totally talks. Well, they see her experience the White Cloaks, right,
• 2:46:42
  Speaker 3: and they're too experience their way, they too react to her.
• 2:46:46
  Speaker 7: Is also two.
• 2:46:47
  Speaker 3: Different angles, right, like you aren't dead, suck it up,
• 2:46:51
  Speaker 3: versus like take the space you need to come to
• 2:46:54
  Speaker 3: terms with that.
• 2:46:54
  Speaker 9: Yeah, you literally have to live through. However long a
• 2:46:58
  Speaker 9: period of time was where all of your decisions were
• 2:47:00
  Speaker 9: taken away from you and your complete and utter you know,
• 2:47:03
  Speaker 9: free will was taken away from you, and now you
• 2:47:04
  Speaker 9: have the process that that's what happened to you. I
• 2:47:07
  Speaker 9: don't know. That's terrifying to me. You know, it's it's
• 2:47:09
  Speaker 9: almost like you have been lobotomized, but you're still walking
• 2:47:12
  Speaker 9: around is the shell of a carcass, and you have
• 2:47:14
  Speaker 9: vague memories of it. You have no idea that all
• 2:47:16
  Speaker 9: your allies have been surround of the palace at your
• 2:47:19
  Speaker 9: own orders. You have no idea you know all these
• 2:47:21
  Speaker 9: things that happened while you were still in power, Like
• 2:47:24
  Speaker 9: all of this power that she had that was used
• 2:47:25
  Speaker 9: and abused in her name, and she has no reflection
• 2:47:29
  Speaker 9: of it or no recollection of it. That's a terrifying
• 2:47:32
  Speaker 9: thing to come to terms with, I can imagine. And
• 2:47:35
  Speaker 9: we don't really see too too much of that. We
• 2:47:37
  Speaker 9: just see it from the darkness that she lets out
• 2:47:40
  Speaker 9: sometimes and then through Yeah, Lenny and Brienna's perspectives.
• 2:47:44
  Speaker 2: I always thought that, I mean, Ravin gets killed, but
• 2:47:47
  Speaker 2: he didn't get us come up and swell the ship.
• 2:47:49
  Speaker 9: He didn't, No, he should he shared, didn't know that
• 2:47:52
  Speaker 9: should have been.
• 2:47:54
  Speaker 2: Hid by the woman up and close.
• 2:47:56
  Speaker 3: He was set on fire by a woman. That's good
• 2:48:00
  Speaker 3: that he gets encased in fire and has to live
• 2:48:03
  Speaker 3: with that for like a whole thirty seconds before he
• 2:48:04
  Speaker 3: gets obliterated. So it's not truly fair.
• 2:48:07
  Speaker 9: But yeah, I agree with Bambi is saying that she
• 2:48:09
  Speaker 9: thinks it's on purpose. I do think he makes it
• 2:48:12
  Speaker 9: tumultuous for a reason to kind of throw our perspectives
• 2:48:15
  Speaker 9: up in the air and kind of make us think
• 2:48:17
  Speaker 9: all topsy turvy as we're going into the next book,
• 2:48:19
  Speaker 9: as we're going into waiting for the next book, as
• 2:48:21
  Speaker 9: some of you guys, I guess had to do.
• 2:48:23
  Speaker 2: I never had to do.
• 2:48:25
  Speaker 3: Speaking of other interesting things that I don't get, the
• 2:48:29
  Speaker 3: beginning of Swan and Brynn is in this book, and
• 2:48:33
  Speaker 3: there's a relationship.
• 2:48:35
  Speaker 9: That I have such a huge man crush on.
• 2:48:37
  Speaker 3: Garrett. Oh, I don't get their whole relationship honestly.
• 2:48:44
  Speaker 9: Well, I mean again, this is just the plot line
• 2:48:46
  Speaker 9: and both of their characters that sets up for the
• 2:48:49
  Speaker 9: rest of the series.
• 2:48:50
  Speaker 7: Basically, I feel bright bad for Brian like the whole time,
• 2:48:54
  Speaker 7: because like more Gaze, she I don't know what sort
• 2:48:58
  Speaker 7: of complicated relationship he has with more Gaze, but I
• 2:49:01
  Speaker 7: feel I don't feel like she treated him very well
• 2:49:05
  Speaker 7: and like he deserved so much more. He was so dedicated,
• 2:49:08
  Speaker 7: so loyal, and and then you see him get with Swan,
• 2:49:11
  Speaker 7: and you know that's just I loved it, Like I
• 2:49:14
  Speaker 7: love that relationship.
• 2:49:16
  Speaker 2: I love it too. It's super it's super trophy.
• 2:49:18
  Speaker 7: It is yeah, yeah, you know, but sometimes you need
• 2:49:21
  Speaker 7: you need that happy ending, you know. I mean, then
• 2:49:23
  Speaker 7: it wasn't that happy ending, but you know it.
• 2:49:25
  Speaker 2: Was weird about the whole They hate each other, that
• 2:49:28
  Speaker 2: of each other, they're super much into each other, so
• 2:49:30
  Speaker 2: they give each other ship and then but I still
• 2:49:33
  Speaker 2: love it, but because I love both of them so much.
• 2:49:35
  Speaker 2: I think Swan is such a great complex character and
• 2:49:38
  Speaker 2: he's just so solid. I think many many women unflappable
• 2:49:42
  Speaker 2: because he's just so super solid.
• 2:49:45
  Speaker 9: And I do like seeing Swan go through her own
• 2:49:48
  Speaker 9: issues with her oath that she swears to him, right
• 2:49:50
  Speaker 9: like you see somebody who at the top of her
• 2:49:52
  Speaker 9: power for so many years, all of a sudden and
• 2:49:55
  Speaker 9: also a short period of time, dressed completely down, powers
• 2:49:58
  Speaker 9: taken away, her own confidence is been broken, and then
• 2:50:01
  Speaker 9: she swears herself basically to this guy that she gave
• 2:50:04
  Speaker 9: a lashing to once, you know, and then seeing her
• 2:50:08
  Speaker 9: go through that more in the next book, I guess
• 2:50:10
  Speaker 9: so well in the rest of the series, but just
• 2:50:12
  Speaker 9: seeing her like this is where it starts for her,
• 2:50:14
  Speaker 9: where she kind of grapples with herself and grapples with
• 2:50:17
  Speaker 9: her own strength of will because she really has to,
• 2:50:19
  Speaker 9: you know, rain herself in to actually listen to what
• 2:50:21
  Speaker 9: he wants to do, and that kind of sets her
• 2:50:22
  Speaker 9: up for the rest of the series, I find.
• 2:50:24
  Speaker 2: Right, and as Leia just mentioned, they bond each other
• 2:50:27
  Speaker 2: or she bonds him, and then they understand their motivations
• 2:50:30
  Speaker 2: better and yeah, and they get along really well with that.
• 2:50:35
  Speaker 2: So Seth asked, what do you think about how he
• 2:50:37
  Speaker 2: handles the compulsion compulsion which one do you mean the
• 2:50:39
  Speaker 2: compulsion that was put on him during the last battle
• 2:50:42
  Speaker 2: or about the more gay stuff, because I think that
• 2:50:45
  Speaker 2: he handles the more gay stuff really really badly, because
• 2:50:48
  Speaker 2: he just refuses to acknowledge that she might not be
• 2:50:50
  Speaker 2: super guilty of everything. The one in the last battle
• 2:50:54
  Speaker 2: he was awesome with, like I think I'm stepping back
• 2:50:59
  Speaker 2: because I seem to be dumb right now.
• 2:51:01
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 2:51:01
  Speaker 3: The only one that does it better is at Giralda,
• 2:51:03
  Speaker 3: who like ends up in that whole like he's frozen
• 2:51:06
  Speaker 3: because he knows he shouldn't give the order, but he
• 2:51:08
  Speaker 3: has to give the order. But Brynn is like, something's wrong.
• 2:51:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know what's wrong. So that's badass, and I
• 2:51:15
  Speaker 3: think it's interesting, Yeah, the Swan and Brynn, because Leanne
• 2:51:20
  Speaker 3: is the one that's like, I'm gonna like fuck all
• 2:51:23
  Speaker 3: the guys and probably all the girls too, like I'm
• 2:51:26
  Speaker 3: just going full on green Fuckaja, and then Swan is like,
• 2:51:30
  Speaker 3: I'm just gonna stay a blue, I'm gonna stay what
• 2:51:32
  Speaker 3: I was always doing. But she still ends up going
• 2:51:35
  Speaker 3: through this transformation in which she like suddenly has room
• 2:51:37
  Speaker 3: in her life for romantic love that was never there before.
• 2:51:40
  Speaker 3: That's that's kind of trippy. She deserves that, I mean,
• 2:51:44
  Speaker 3: because he's solid for all that. There's a lot of
• 2:51:45
  Speaker 3: contention there, Like she deserves to unexpectedly land in some comfort.
• 2:51:49
  Speaker 3: I just don't get the attraction, that's all. I'm glad
• 2:51:52
  Speaker 3: she got it.
• 2:51:53
  Speaker 2: While I'm saying that I love this storyline or this
• 2:51:55
  Speaker 2: love story between them, I still say that she should
• 2:51:58
  Speaker 2: end up with them because this is the big love.
• 2:52:01
  Speaker 12: But well, chance missed.
• 2:52:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that would have been the best.
• 2:52:07
  Speaker 12: But that would have been Yeah, I really wanted to see.
• 2:52:10
  Speaker 9: Them, like also retire to a little farmhouse somewhere. I
• 2:52:13
  Speaker 9: got a lid with a laker ocean nearby, I guess,
• 2:52:15
  Speaker 9: so Swan can do her thing and fish all the time.
• 2:52:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, should have gotten to meat. They should have at
• 2:52:23
  Speaker 3: least been like a ninety second hug. That should have happened.
• 2:52:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe it happened. Off's great. They should They should hug
• 2:52:29
  Speaker 2: and then fade to black. Because Robert Jordan does not
• 2:52:31
  Speaker 2: do porn, right, Yeah, because yeah, that's what happens in
• 2:52:36
  Speaker 2: my head polyamorous with Gareth and the Tom hanging out.
• 2:52:39
  Speaker 2: Well yeah why not?
• 2:52:45
  Speaker 7: Why not?
• 2:52:46
  Speaker 3: So do we want to talk about Men and Logain
• 2:52:49
  Speaker 3: and and their story?
• 2:52:50
  Speaker 9: Also, yeah, I feel bad for Men. She's just dragged
• 2:52:55
  Speaker 9: along until she reunited everybody at the like Insaladar, She's
• 2:52:59
  Speaker 9: just dragged at the poor girl.
• 2:53:01
  Speaker 2: Just imagine with all these mokey people.
• 2:53:06
  Speaker 3: I love men so so much. She has such the
• 2:53:09
  Speaker 3: fuzzy end of the lollipop this whole freaking book. Yeah,
• 2:53:12
  Speaker 3: like Marby said, she's the awkward third wheel in this book,
• 2:53:15
  Speaker 3: But I love her because she's one of the only
• 2:53:17
  Speaker 3: people that holds her own without magic to back her up.
• 2:53:20
  Speaker 9: Yeah, she just is. She just is throughout the entire series.
• 2:53:23
  Speaker 9: And she is also a solid constant, which I appreciate.
• 2:53:27
  Speaker 7: She is that NPC the DM throws in when the
• 2:53:30
  Speaker 7: players are like floundering, like they don't know what to do,
• 2:53:34
  Speaker 7: they don't know who to turn to, and the players
• 2:53:38
  Speaker 7: like need someone to help them. So that's that's what mindos.
• 2:53:42
  Speaker 7: She's there at the most opportune moments when everyone, like
• 2:53:45
  Speaker 7: when whoever needs to get out of a situation that
• 2:53:48
  Speaker 7: they can't get out of themselves.
• 2:53:50
  Speaker 3: And then Logain, man, he is just like are you
• 2:53:54
  Speaker 3: gonna die or not?
• 2:53:55
  Speaker 2: This book he doesn't do anything in this book. I mean,
• 2:53:58
  Speaker 2: later we can say a lot about Logain, but in
• 2:54:02
  Speaker 2: this book he's yeah, I mean he's he's a hask.
• 2:54:04
  Speaker 3: Of a person and he's this is the lowest, like
• 2:54:07
  Speaker 3: he thought he was at his lowest for like the
• 2:54:09
  Speaker 3: preceding few months, right, this is his actual lowest of
• 2:54:12
  Speaker 3: lows hm hmm. And then things happen. But this is
• 2:54:16
  Speaker 3: this is the book that sets you up to be like,
• 2:54:18
  Speaker 3: how much lower can this guy go before something happens?
• 2:54:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, the politicking of Saladar is like, in so
• 2:54:24
  Speaker 3: many ways kicked off by Swan showing up with Logan, right,
• 2:54:28
  Speaker 3: Like Swan showing up without Logain would have been a
• 2:54:30
  Speaker 3: very very different Saladar plot.
• 2:54:33
  Speaker 9: Yeah, and we as readers seeing these, you know, very
• 2:54:37
  Speaker 9: sparse viewings and then has of him in his glory
• 2:54:39
  Speaker 9: or whatever's to come, keeps it intriguing enough, you know,
• 2:54:42
  Speaker 9: because otherwise it is just like, Okay, dude, we get it,
• 2:54:45
  Speaker 9: you're depressed, luster power, you're in withdrawal.
• 2:54:47
  Speaker 10: I get it.
• 2:54:49
  Speaker 9: You know, It's just it's just a lot of a
• 2:54:50
  Speaker 9: lot of feelings on the other spectrum to deal through
• 2:54:53
  Speaker 9: or to deal with.
• 2:54:54
  Speaker 2: What lay I just mentioned if he look at it
• 2:54:57
  Speaker 2: from a plot or the pattern or whatever standpoint. Logain,
• 2:55:01
  Speaker 2: being as unresponsible as he was, just made Gareth Brinn
• 2:55:05
  Speaker 2: follow the girls get to Saladar lead the army, so
• 2:55:10
  Speaker 2: his fuck ups were very much needed.
• 2:55:14
  Speaker 3: That could be the tagon for this whole series. The
• 2:55:16
  Speaker 3: fuck ups were needed.
• 2:55:31
  Speaker 2: They all end in Saladar, as you mentioned, and there's
• 2:55:34
  Speaker 2: politicking and I love it so much.
• 2:55:37
  Speaker 3: Take it away because I don't get politics now.
• 2:55:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, just the whole Saladar storyline is maybe this
• 2:55:43
  Speaker 2: and Elaine in the White Tower as a prisoner are
• 2:55:46
  Speaker 2: my two favorite storylines. I don't know why for this
• 2:55:50
  Speaker 2: part of.
• 2:55:50
  Speaker 9: The book, in the Saladar everything was way more frustrating
• 2:55:54
  Speaker 9: for me to read than the circus stuff.
• 2:55:56
  Speaker 6: Ever.
• 2:55:56
  Speaker 9: Was just seeing all of these the six Checks on
• 2:55:59
  Speaker 9: their high horses, on their on their couches, basically trying
• 2:56:02
  Speaker 9: to direct everything around them without any actual experience always
• 2:56:06
  Speaker 9: just drove me mental, especially when you have all these
• 2:56:08
  Speaker 9: like they literally have these resources ride into camp like
• 2:56:12
  Speaker 9: Swan and Lean and then the Supergirls, like they ride
• 2:56:14
  Speaker 9: into camp to them find them to I mean essentially
• 2:56:19
  Speaker 9: offer their help and support and be there as resources.
• 2:56:22
  Speaker 9: And those six are just like.
• 2:56:24
  Speaker 2: Well but maybe, but that's that's I think that's actually
• 2:56:28
  Speaker 2: what I love about it. Like these they are so
• 2:56:31
  Speaker 2: stale and so stagnant and black Ajia partly so they're
• 2:56:36
  Speaker 2: not successful. And then the people come out from come
• 2:56:39
  Speaker 2: in from the outside and like like little agents of
• 2:56:42
  Speaker 2: chaos and pushing here and pushing there, and Swan most
• 2:56:46
  Speaker 2: of all like pulto strings in the background and slowly
• 2:56:49
  Speaker 2: gets them to move. And I like, I really like it.
• 2:56:52
  Speaker 2: I like the nitty gritty that gets on there.
• 2:56:55
  Speaker 9: I like it as well. It just infuriated me because
• 2:56:58
  Speaker 9: for me, like these are suppose least smart, intelligent, powerful women,
• 2:57:03
  Speaker 9: and you would think they would use as many resourves
• 2:57:05
  Speaker 9: that they had at hand. And Swan is one of those,
• 2:57:08
  Speaker 9: Leanne is one of those.
• 2:57:10
  Speaker 2: Well it's super dumb. They are so dumb, not.
• 2:57:13
  Speaker 9: Even a later one of those. They can just utilize them.
• 2:57:15
  Speaker 9: You are the White while you're agents of the White Tower,
• 2:57:18
  Speaker 9: essentially use your powers like use them. I don't understand.
• 2:57:22
  Speaker 9: I've just never understood that aspect because they're moping. Yeah,
• 2:57:25
  Speaker 9: they're butt hurt at being broken through the tower. I
• 2:57:28
  Speaker 9: guess I don't know. It's just if you're already broken,
• 2:57:31
  Speaker 9: why not try and forge your head as best as
• 2:57:33
  Speaker 9: you can and use the tools at hand, which to
• 2:57:35
  Speaker 9: me are these people that literally rode into can't defind you.
• 2:57:38
  Speaker 2: There's there's also a lot of cognitive dissonance happening there,
• 2:57:42
  Speaker 2: Like it can't be that the tower is broken. It
• 2:57:44
  Speaker 2: can't be that someone is still and still trying to
• 2:57:49
  Speaker 2: get us to act.
• 2:57:50
  Speaker 9: And yeah, yeah, and change. Change is a hard thing
• 2:57:53
  Speaker 9: for a lot of people. You have a tower that's
• 2:57:54
  Speaker 9: been together for thousands of years and all of a
• 2:57:56
  Speaker 9: sudden broken, it's hard to adapt.
• 2:57:58
  Speaker 2: That's a lot of the problem. Iguainas later that they
• 2:58:02
  Speaker 2: don't want to They don't want to start the war
• 2:58:04
  Speaker 2: really because that would mean acknowledging that the toe was broken,
• 2:58:08
  Speaker 2: which they really really don't want to.
• 2:58:10
  Speaker 9: Yeah, but ignoria problem doesn't make it any less real,
• 2:58:13
  Speaker 9: which always also drove me crazy about this, like you
• 2:58:15
  Speaker 9: keep deferring something that clearly has obviously happened. You're Insaladar
• 2:58:19
  Speaker 9: for a reason, right, Like it's broken. You are there
• 2:58:23
  Speaker 9: because it's broken, So now adapt or die? Basically, and
• 2:58:27
  Speaker 9: it's just it used to just drive me. Yeah, it
• 2:58:29
  Speaker 9: drove me nuts.
• 2:58:31
  Speaker 2: In case you haven't noticed, super Skytic just said these
• 2:58:34
  Speaker 2: women are super stylophobic, and yes they are.
• 2:58:38
  Speaker 9: Yeah, which and another point too is something that I
• 2:58:42
  Speaker 9: was kind of like Swan being hesitant to let nine
• 2:58:45
  Speaker 9: you study her, Like, what's I never understood what the
• 2:58:48
  Speaker 9: harm was in studying. I know they have their own negotiations,
• 2:58:51
  Speaker 9: negotiations and little plots where they kind of discussed with
• 2:58:54
  Speaker 9: each other like how to get the one up. But
• 2:58:57
  Speaker 9: if I was Swan, there's no harm in somebody trying
• 2:58:59
  Speaker 9: to studying need to make me potentially channel again, even
• 2:59:03
  Speaker 9: if I think it's never going to happen.
• 2:59:06
  Speaker 12: I think she I think she doesn't. She doesn't think
• 2:59:08
  Speaker 12: that there is a potential.
• 2:59:09
  Speaker 2: I think it's she is completely convinced that it's absolutely hopeless,
• 2:59:14
  Speaker 2: and so someone else saying no, you might have hope
• 2:59:17
  Speaker 2: just hurts every single time. Yeah.
• 2:59:20
  Speaker 3: I think that mirrors how Swan and Leanne both approached
• 2:59:24
  Speaker 3: their transformations of being still, Like Leanne's like I'm going
• 2:59:27
  Speaker 3: to find opportunities, I'm going to try new things, like
• 2:59:30
  Speaker 3: I can handle hope, which is why Leanne wants Naive
• 2:59:33
  Speaker 3: to heal her. She's excited for that, and Swan's like,
• 2:59:35
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and
• 2:59:38
  Speaker 3: not look up out of the rut, not hope. But
• 2:59:41
  Speaker 3: then she of course like breaks down crying like in
• 2:59:44
  Speaker 3: Nineve's arms when she gets the power back, like she
• 2:59:47
  Speaker 3: clearly wanted it, she just couldn't let herself hope.
• 2:59:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and she wants to move on from the trauma,
• 2:59:52
  Speaker 2: which is a good.
• 2:59:53
  Speaker 9: Point too, because if you've gone through something awful, you
• 2:59:56
  Speaker 9: don't want somebody to keep bringing it up and bringing
• 2:59:58
  Speaker 9: it up and bringing it up over and over her.
• 3:00:00
  Speaker 2: Again, right, it's like niney Nani Nanive puts her finger
• 3:00:04
  Speaker 2: into the the wound every time.
• 3:00:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, super sky. Like she starts crying at the death
• 3:00:11
  Speaker 3: of her warder, but she's also crying in Nineve's arms,
• 3:00:13
  Speaker 3: Like she grabs her in a hug and is like sniffling,
• 3:00:17
  Speaker 3: the balling, the full face bawling is over her warder,
• 3:00:20
  Speaker 3: like ten minutes later, and Elida is beginning her reign
• 3:00:23
  Speaker 3: of terror and incompetence. I like that line. I like
• 3:00:26
  Speaker 3: that description. That is accurate. I really like Elida as
• 3:00:32
  Speaker 3: a character. She's such a delightfully competent, incompetent, if that
• 3:00:36
  Speaker 3: makes any sense.
• 3:00:38
  Speaker 2: And her her descend, her descent into madness is so quick.
• 3:00:41
  Speaker 2: It's like every time we check back in with her,
• 3:00:43
  Speaker 2: she has gone to another level of crazy. Like nobody
• 3:00:47
  Speaker 2: can nobody can sit down in my study. No, it's like,
• 3:00:51
  Speaker 2: what is happening there?
• 3:00:52
  Speaker 9: Yeah, that tak her and Fain had really uh amplify
• 3:00:55
  Speaker 9: her own gray, her own gray gray.
• 3:00:57
  Speaker 7: And I so I was really listening to the podcast
• 3:01:00
  Speaker 7: like in preparation for today, and I feel like the
• 3:01:03
  Speaker 7: guys also discuss this, like there are signs that she
• 3:01:06
  Speaker 7: might have been a good leader if times were different,
• 3:01:10
  Speaker 7: not if COVID nineteen was going around, but maybe there was.
• 3:01:15
  Speaker 2: Maybe if she'd come to this in a different way. Also,
• 3:01:21
  Speaker 2: because she starts from this idea of I have to
• 3:01:25
  Speaker 2: really fight, I have to fight, fight, fight. Everybody's against me.
• 3:01:29
  Speaker 2: And she never just sits back and thinks about, Okay,
• 3:01:32
  Speaker 2: I'm leader, Now.
• 3:01:33
  Speaker 4: What do I do.
• 3:01:34
  Speaker 12: She's always in this fight mentality.
• 3:01:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she's not a bad administrator necessarily.
• 3:01:40
  Speaker 2: In the beginning. Later she's just backshit, right.
• 3:01:42
  Speaker 3: She was like the counsel to the Queen of Andor
• 3:01:44
  Speaker 3: for decades, like, she clearly had some skills. But I
• 3:01:47
  Speaker 3: think there's the comment that Fain makes that people who
• 3:01:50
  Speaker 3: are harder to bend or easier to break. I think
• 3:01:53
  Speaker 3: that she embodies that like to a tea.
• 3:01:56
  Speaker 9: Yeah, it's like a live branch versus a dead branch, right.
• 3:01:59
  Speaker 2: I think she would have been a terrible fida anyways,
• 3:02:02
  Speaker 2: but who.
• 3:02:02
  Speaker 9: Knows, because she she's just she would constantly be trying
• 3:02:06
  Speaker 9: to overcome people and power trip over them basically instead
• 3:02:10
  Speaker 9: of work with people. You know, she's very much power heavy,
• 3:02:14
  Speaker 9: not negotiate and compromise heavy. Right leaders need a good
• 3:02:18
  Speaker 9: mix of all of it.
• 3:02:18
  Speaker 3: She probably would have been an excellent battle commander in
• 3:02:21
  Speaker 3: a protracted war against a chan chan, but somebody was
• 3:02:25
  Speaker 3: a dumbass and got captured by them instead, so that
• 3:02:30
  Speaker 3: didn't work out. But she would have been an amazing
• 3:02:33
  Speaker 3: ruthless leader against a sean Chan if she had, you know,
• 3:02:36
  Speaker 3: been like, okay, you know a gude, you can dream
• 3:02:39
  Speaker 3: the future. Tell me where to kick some ass and
• 3:02:41
  Speaker 3: I will kick it very hard.
• 3:02:43
  Speaker 2: Well, she ends up with with a shan Chin, doesn't she, Yes,
• 3:02:47
  Speaker 2: she does, just not quite the way in a possession.
• 3:02:51
  Speaker 3: No, yeah, yeah, and she and the the whole part
• 3:02:54
  Speaker 3: where she's like selling out the other eyes to die.
• 3:02:56
  Speaker 3: She's like, I'll trade you twenty women. She would just
• 3:02:59
  Speaker 3: let me go. It's like, Wow, you're a shitty leader,
• 3:03:01
  Speaker 3: sacrificing your people to get your freedom.
• 3:03:04
  Speaker 7: Bag.
• 3:03:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, I get it. Being a Shan Shan prisoner
• 3:03:07
  Speaker 3: is like a whole thing, but still bad leader.
• 3:03:11
  Speaker 9: Yeah, willing to sacrifice lives to be a good leader.
• 3:03:13
  Speaker 7: What who are we talking about? Not an element in
• 3:03:20
  Speaker 7: the current political situation at all?
• 3:03:22
  Speaker 9: Do we poke the bear?
• 3:03:24
  Speaker 2: No?
• 3:03:29
  Speaker 7: I don't feel like that's that's not an opinion I
• 3:03:34
  Speaker 7: want to air at all.
• 3:03:35
  Speaker 10: Yeah for me moving on, you can just hear in
• 3:03:42
  Speaker 10: the pauses everybody would have to say something, but everyone
• 3:03:45
  Speaker 10: holds their breast.
• 3:03:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not No, those are inside thoughts.
• 3:03:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, these are this side of the pond thoughts
• 3:03:54
  Speaker 2: though attack on Ravin thunderbolts and lightning, very very frightening.
• 3:03:58
  Speaker 2: Doth oh why did why did you do that? Right?
• 3:04:02
  Speaker 9: I'm sorry, I was gonna say, how do you think
• 3:04:05
  Speaker 9: guys think it would have gone if the fight hadn't been.
• 3:04:07
  Speaker 3: Taken to tar bad for Camelin so much collateral damage,
• 3:04:12
  Speaker 3: Like I don't understand how there isn't shit tons of
• 3:04:13
  Speaker 3: collateral damage already, Like Raven does not seem the kind
• 3:04:16
  Speaker 3: of person who would have told the population to bail
• 3:04:18
  Speaker 3: from the inner city, and he smashes the fuck out
• 3:04:21
  Speaker 3: of the inner city.
• 3:04:22
  Speaker 9: Like Nannie wouldn't have been there to help Rand to
• 3:04:24
  Speaker 9: corner him the corner Ravine, and like I think the
• 3:04:27
  Speaker 9: whole Rand even entering Teller and Riod was a huge
• 3:04:30
  Speaker 9: surprise factor itself. So yeah, I just I wonder at
• 3:04:32
  Speaker 9: the implication of how it would have gone otherwise.
• 3:04:35
  Speaker 5: Fuck.
• 3:04:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Rand wouldn't. Rand was losing that battle until
• 3:04:39
  Speaker 3: Ninive gave him an edge that would not have happened.
• 3:04:42
  Speaker 3: She's got halfway around the world from him, well a
• 3:04:44
  Speaker 3: quarter of the way around the world from him. Yeah,
• 3:04:47
  Speaker 3: that would have probably been the end. So which means
• 3:04:49
  Speaker 3: that Rovin was a dumb ass by saying I don't
• 3:04:51
  Speaker 3: want to ruin cameln like kick it into the dream
• 3:04:54
  Speaker 3: world like he that was him spelling his own doom.
• 3:04:59
  Speaker 9: Yeah, he shot himself from the foot doing that. Absolutely. Yeah,
• 3:05:02
  Speaker 9: they just enter the tar version of the Palace and
• 3:05:05
  Speaker 9: that's it, okay, because Nine travels there too. It goes
• 3:05:09
  Speaker 9: there in the dream world to kind of explore and
• 3:05:10
  Speaker 9: see what's going on, and she pops in on the
• 3:05:12
  Speaker 9: situation basically at the same time.
• 3:05:14
  Speaker 3: Why does Ninive end up there?
• 3:05:16
  Speaker 9: Does she bounce because Mogeion spills info about it?
• 3:05:20
  Speaker 3: Right right, She's like, the battle is happening today, and
• 3:05:24
  Speaker 3: nine is like, well, fuck that shit, we're gonna go
• 3:05:27
  Speaker 3: observe or something.
• 3:05:28
  Speaker 9: Yeah, we need to go check out what's happening. And
• 3:05:30
  Speaker 9: she just happens to be there when Brand enters.
• 3:05:33
  Speaker 3: I wonder how much of that is like the timing
• 3:05:35
  Speaker 3: of teleron riodd like tavereining them to be there at
• 3:05:39
  Speaker 3: the same time because time.
• 3:05:41
  Speaker 2: Flows differently, so yeah, yeah, yeah, something's some of that
• 3:05:45
  Speaker 2: happens in the Last Battle with Paren, right if he
• 3:05:48
  Speaker 2: gets there.
• 3:05:49
  Speaker 3: Right, yeah, Parent and Slayer bouncing through. But that's then
• 3:05:52
  Speaker 3: using their like mental ability to flip back and forth
• 3:05:55
  Speaker 3: through the world. Whereas this is no, no, no, I meant,
• 3:05:57
  Speaker 3: I meant that Paren is there.
• 3:05:59
  Speaker 2: No, it's not the last bet. It's so faint of
• 3:06:00
  Speaker 2: gold that Parent is there.
• 3:06:01
  Speaker 3: When Rand has a thing, When when Rand is showing
• 3:06:05
  Speaker 3: up until I run real because he's having such a
• 3:06:07
  Speaker 3: pivotal moment.
• 3:06:08
  Speaker 2: That, like, yeah, and he has to witness bear witness
• 3:06:12
  Speaker 2: with the wolves, and it's oh right.
• 3:06:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I want I also, yeah, I wonder if if
• 3:06:17
  Speaker 3: parent being there somehow helped that that moment, or if
• 3:06:20
  Speaker 3: he just had to witness.
• 3:06:21
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 3:06:22
  Speaker 7: Leo makes a good point, he is warn So him
• 3:06:27
  Speaker 7: just being there, I mean, it can't just be just
• 3:06:31
  Speaker 7: there to witness, right, Like, it has to be more
• 3:06:33
  Speaker 7: than that.
• 3:06:34
  Speaker 3: True true Tivie in one place means something more.
• 3:06:38
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean when when the when him and when
• 3:06:41
  Speaker 7: Randon matter in the tower together?
• 3:06:43
  Speaker 5: Not they?
• 3:06:44
  Speaker 7: Not the White Hour, the other one which I can't pronounce.
• 3:06:47
  Speaker 3: The Snakes and Fox the Tower of Genji.
• 3:06:49
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and like it starts like there's like the ground
• 3:06:54
  Speaker 7: starts heaving and you know floor is lava and all
• 3:06:56
  Speaker 7: that stuff.
• 3:06:57
  Speaker 3: So right, oh, that's not in the tower. That's in
• 3:06:59
  Speaker 3: the their worlds. But yeah, in their work. The what
• 3:07:03
  Speaker 3: do they call it? It's never Land in the old time,
• 3:07:06
  Speaker 3: I remember that much. I remember it translates as never
• 3:07:08
  Speaker 3: Land Sindal.
• 3:07:11
  Speaker 2: I think it's it has to be pronounced shind. I
• 3:07:15
  Speaker 2: think so because the she, which is spelled very similarly,
• 3:07:19
  Speaker 2: is the Celtic Fairies.
• 3:07:21
  Speaker 3: Okay, cool. Oh cool, of course I was brought my
• 3:07:24
  Speaker 3: Yankee pronunciation to it was like sindal.
• 3:07:30
  Speaker 2: Sind. Yeah, yeah, I think, But it's it's a it's
• 3:07:33
  Speaker 2: a theme through the books that during the big climaxes
• 3:07:37
  Speaker 2: that different storylines come together. And sometimes it works just
• 3:07:41
  Speaker 2: because of teleron riot, because the people are actually spread
• 3:07:43
  Speaker 2: out over the world, but in the climax they all
• 3:07:46
  Speaker 2: do something together.
• 3:07:47
  Speaker 12: So it's a nice plot device to type everything back in.
• 3:07:51
  Speaker 2: I feel like the boys mentioned that they don't think
• 3:07:54
  Speaker 2: they have much to say about do might as well
• 3:07:56
  Speaker 2: because battle scenes, and I think we're the same way.
• 3:07:59
  Speaker 2: So I hope that if they get if you get
• 3:08:02
  Speaker 2: to that point, that you get someone on who can
• 3:08:04
  Speaker 2: talk about battles in a coherent way, Like I think
• 3:08:07
  Speaker 2: Leiah mentioned that she has a lot to say about
• 3:08:09
  Speaker 2: tactics and ethics and all the great things, and it
• 3:08:13
  Speaker 2: would be very helpful to me to finally understand what's
• 3:08:16
  Speaker 2: happening there.
• 3:08:16
  Speaker 7: So do my wells Patreon episode we have a request
• 3:08:20
  Speaker 7: said yeah.
• 3:08:21
  Speaker 12: No, no, no, just when they get there in the regular.
• 3:08:25
  Speaker 3: Honestly, it could merit a Patreon episode just the I think.
• 3:08:29
  Speaker 9: So during the battle at Carryenne was Samuel present or
• 3:08:34
  Speaker 9: did he just show up to blow the tower up
• 3:08:36
  Speaker 9: later on? So, yeah, so I'm kind of backstepping before
• 3:08:39
  Speaker 9: the attack of Rovin. I guess Ravine. What have you
• 3:08:41
  Speaker 9: guys say his name Rovin?
• 3:08:43
  Speaker 2: I say Ron Ravine, I say Robin as well, I
• 3:08:47
  Speaker 2: say Ravine. Who cares?
• 3:08:49
  Speaker 9: Yeah, it doesn't matter.
• 3:08:50
  Speaker 2: I look into the pronunciation thing I have said, so
• 3:08:54
  Speaker 2: we stuck in my head, like you know how he
• 3:08:58
  Speaker 2: says it every time.
• 3:08:59
  Speaker 7: This would when this chapter was being discussed. So Javen,
• 3:09:03
  Speaker 7: then I guess work can.
• 3:09:05
  Speaker 2: Have you He's not in the glossary of this book.
• 3:09:07
  Speaker 2: Oh no, what doesn't make any sense. No, it's Rand
• 3:09:12
  Speaker 2: Rock really am Yeah.
• 3:09:14
  Speaker 9: So at the Battle of Carrienne, their tower gets destroyed
• 3:09:18
  Speaker 9: right towards the end of the battle once they start
• 3:09:20
  Speaker 9: realizing that, you know, the tides are starting to turn,
• 3:09:23
  Speaker 9: and like I would have thought Sameel would have been
• 3:09:26
  Speaker 9: there the whole time. But it feels like he just
• 3:09:28
  Speaker 9: shows up to destroy the tower that Agwayne and Avi
• 3:09:32
  Speaker 9: and Rand are on once he starts to see that
• 3:09:34
  Speaker 9: things are starting to shift a little bit for his
• 3:09:37
  Speaker 9: side for the worse, can anybody else, like, do you
• 3:09:40
  Speaker 9: guys think that's also what happened, because I feel like
• 3:09:43
  Speaker 9: if wouldn't Sameel have wanted to be there earlier to
• 3:09:45
  Speaker 9: kind of destroy what was going on because he can
• 3:09:47
  Speaker 9: also feel the sense of where Rand is channeling from
• 3:09:50
  Speaker 9: and where the girls are channeling from or Rand is
• 3:09:52
  Speaker 9: traveling from. Anyways, wouldn't he have wanted to take that
• 3:09:54
  Speaker 9: tower down from the get go instead of towards the
• 3:09:56
  Speaker 9: end after so many of his so many lives on
• 3:09:59
  Speaker 9: his side had already been lost.
• 3:10:01
  Speaker 7: Do we know where he is when this is happening.
• 3:10:03
  Speaker 9: I assume that Samiel was also just watching from Afar.
• 3:10:06
  Speaker 2: Maybe.
• 3:10:07
  Speaker 3: I feel like sami is the ones that's described as
• 3:10:10
  Speaker 3: being willing to sacrifice any amount of his own resources
• 3:10:12
  Speaker 3: to get his ends right. Yeah, so I could see
• 3:10:15
  Speaker 3: him wanting to let Rand tire himself out before kicking
• 3:10:19
  Speaker 3: him in the balls, which would mean letting a lot
• 3:10:21
  Speaker 3: of his army get wrecked. Burning up Rand's strength seems
• 3:10:26
  Speaker 3: like a for second thing to do. Mm hmmm, because
• 3:10:28
  Speaker 3: Rand is way less capable of surviving that fall and
• 3:10:32
  Speaker 3: being an effective leader after the fall, because he was
• 3:10:35
  Speaker 3: like already on the brink of being exhausted.
• 3:10:37
  Speaker 9: Instead of taking that at the beginning.
• 3:10:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he like almost like burned himself out from
• 3:10:41
  Speaker 3: losing the source with the impact, right, Like that wouldn't
• 3:10:43
  Speaker 3: have happened if he'd been on top of this game.
• 3:10:45
  Speaker 3: But when he's already tired, like he might have burned
• 3:10:47
  Speaker 3: himself out there.
• 3:10:49
  Speaker 2: Kangos Khan or however you say his name, just said
• 3:10:51
  Speaker 2: that Napoleon bought a part is a good parallel for
• 3:10:53
  Speaker 2: him visually. But Napoleon wasn't short.
• 3:10:57
  Speaker 7: No, yeah, that's a myth.
• 3:10:59
  Speaker 3: It was actually.
• 3:11:00
  Speaker 2: Propaganda, which I think is funny. Like somebody, somebody in
• 3:11:04
  Speaker 2: England said the dude is small, and here we are
• 3:11:06
  Speaker 2: hundreds of years later, like, oh, the dude is so small.
• 3:11:09
  Speaker 7: Wow.
• 3:11:10
  Speaker 3: I loved that. I knew it was a myth, but
• 3:11:11
  Speaker 3: I didn't know it was an actual piece of propaganda.
• 3:11:14
  Speaker 2: It wasn't actually.
• 3:11:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah he was, he was.
• 3:11:18
  Speaker 12: He was five eight, but at this time he was
• 3:11:20
  Speaker 12: actually among the taller people.
• 3:11:21
  Speaker 3: Right, five eight back then would have been much more
• 3:11:23
  Speaker 3: impressive than it is now.
• 3:11:25
  Speaker 2: On the tall end of normal.
• 3:11:26
  Speaker 7: I think, I mean, five eight is still average.
• 3:11:29
  Speaker 2: I think Samuel may Well, maybe, yeah, you're just born
• 3:11:36
  Speaker 2: in the wrong century. Seth you would you're an inner diant,
• 3:11:41
  Speaker 2: But do we know Samuel actually short. Was he just
• 3:11:43
  Speaker 2: a little shorter than loose Tern? Which makes him think
• 3:11:46
  Speaker 2: that he's super short and has to of a company.
• 3:11:48
  Speaker 3: I think he's just a little bit shorter. He's the
• 3:11:49
  Speaker 3: one who resents that the power couldn't make him taller, right,
• 3:11:52
  Speaker 3: it's just so he could overtop Rand.
• 3:11:54
  Speaker 2: I just wonder if he if he's actually like short
• 3:11:57
  Speaker 2: off he just in his head thinks he should be
• 3:11:59
  Speaker 2: much much taller.
• 3:12:01
  Speaker 3: I would bet so, given that he puts so much
• 3:12:04
  Speaker 3: emphasis on measuring up to Rand, who's like, you know,
• 3:12:07
  Speaker 3: seventy five feet tall or whatever.
• 3:12:11
  Speaker 12: Yes, is the is the master of over compensation.
• 3:12:15
  Speaker 3: Seriously, No, I'm not going to another one of those
• 3:12:21
  Speaker 3: pauses where its mad drum. We have one of those
• 3:12:25
  Speaker 3: monster trucks.
• 3:12:26
  Speaker 7: Oh my god.
• 3:12:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, he would totally be the guy that gets out
• 3:12:29
  Speaker 3: of the truck that is dwarfed by its tires.
• 3:12:31
  Speaker 2: Well, it's funny, that's that's where you go, because here
• 3:12:33
  Speaker 2: we would go to like loudsports cars for this.
• 3:12:36
  Speaker 6: No, that too.
• 3:12:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and in America it really helps if.
• 3:12:39
  Speaker 2: It polluted because there are no big trucks here because
• 3:12:43
  Speaker 2: you you would get stuck in streets.
• 3:12:45
  Speaker 3: I envy your city designs that were not built for cars.
• 3:12:49
  Speaker 2: Where have we gone?
• 3:12:50
  Speaker 3: I am down to the bye bye land for Moraine,
• 3:12:54
  Speaker 3: Robinezmodi and some of them even stay dead.
• 3:12:58
  Speaker 7: I love these not it is so good, so good.
• 3:13:04
  Speaker 2: It's really something. Them even stayed out.
• 3:13:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, who stays dead? Ravin stays dead as money and
• 3:13:11
  Speaker 3: stays dead.
• 3:13:14
  Speaker 2: The guys stayed dead. The girls come back because women
• 3:13:16
  Speaker 2: are because they get bad fired because it's the only
• 3:13:18
  Speaker 2: way of ever getting rid of someone. Oh bayfire or
• 3:13:21
  Speaker 2: like marchin gin thingy.
• 3:13:23
  Speaker 7: Yeah. Do we have a theory on who killed us modun.
• 3:13:26
  Speaker 2: Or there's no theory. D I don't care.
• 3:13:31
  Speaker 9: It was Grendall. I mean the theory is she's responsible
• 3:13:35
  Speaker 9: for his death. So take that as whatever you want
• 3:13:38
  Speaker 9: to take it as I have to say.
• 3:13:39
  Speaker 2: I never actually cared. Was like, yeah, somebody killed him, bye,
• 3:13:46
  Speaker 2: So you.
• 3:13:46
  Speaker 3: Were the least impressive for sake, and I don't even
• 3:13:48
  Speaker 3: care who killed you.
• 3:13:51
  Speaker 9: Out of here, You're just dead.
• 3:13:53
  Speaker 2: I was actually sad that he died because I think that,
• 3:13:55
  Speaker 2: uh that it was interesting with him around.
• 3:13:59
  Speaker 3: He had a cool redemption arc possibility that was not actualized.
• 3:14:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I think it would have been if
• 3:14:06
  Speaker 2: he'd stayed around, he would never have gotten the real
• 3:14:09
  Speaker 2: redemption arc because his heart was never in it. He
• 3:14:12
  Speaker 2: was just an opportunist to the end degree.
• 3:14:15
  Speaker 7: Yeah that's true.
• 3:14:16
  Speaker 2: I mean he would he would never have done the
• 3:14:20
  Speaker 2: sacrifice thing that you need in fantasy to have the
• 3:14:23
  Speaker 2: ultimate redemption. Y.
• 3:14:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he would have failed at the last He would
• 3:14:25
  Speaker 3: have throtted out at the last minute, no matter how
• 3:14:27
  Speaker 3: much he talked himself up.
• 3:14:29
  Speaker 2: And I would have and I would have liked that.
• 3:14:33
  Speaker 9: Yeah, oh yeah.
• 3:14:36
  Speaker 3: This comic and discord for the non live people, it's
• 3:14:40
  Speaker 3: the asmodium looking frustrated because there's a speech bubble that
• 3:14:43
  Speaker 3: says and uh looks at s much writing on hand
• 3:14:46
  Speaker 3: musician music. Turk Lord is like, ah, yes, I've got
• 3:14:50
  Speaker 3: the betrayer of Hope and the mistress of pay it
• 3:14:52
  Speaker 3: and the uh musician.
• 3:14:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's not it's not the best
• 3:15:01
  Speaker 2: reason for becoming the ultimately the guy that you want
• 3:15:05
  Speaker 2: to music better than everybody.
• 3:15:07
  Speaker 3: Okay, but it does make me think of Amadeus the movie.
• 3:15:11
  Speaker 3: I mean that that's the dude right there, Like if
• 3:15:16
  Speaker 3: he had the chance to swirst sort of the dark one,
• 3:15:18
  Speaker 3: to take down boat.
• 3:15:19
  Speaker 2: Sorry, he totally would have Salary. He never was like that.
• 3:15:25
  Speaker 7: CARDI bs Forsaken, just not nearly as loud. I I
• 3:15:43
  Speaker 7: like plot point wise. I think he's in there because
• 3:15:46
  Speaker 7: they needed a sort of a non threatening Forsaken who
• 3:15:49
  Speaker 7: could like teach Rand.
• 3:15:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he needs the basics. He needs someone to teach
• 3:15:54
  Speaker 2: in the basics.
• 3:15:54
  Speaker 7: Before he someone someone needed to teach Rand, and they
• 3:15:58
  Speaker 7: needed like a new trialish Forsaken who could do it
• 3:16:01
  Speaker 7: because it needed to be magic from that time, like
• 3:16:05
  Speaker 7: before the breaking right and all.
• 3:16:07
  Speaker 3: The other males have like very personal grudges against Rand,
• 3:16:11
  Speaker 3: so exactly.
• 3:16:14
  Speaker 7: Like he's the most non threatening, ambiguous.
• 3:16:17
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I think he was the only one of them
• 3:16:19
  Speaker 9: who could have been any kind of teacher towards Rand.
• 3:16:22
  Speaker 2: Is everybody else said that he never meets Tom because
• 3:16:24
  Speaker 2: I think there would have been a grudge.
• 3:16:26
  Speaker 3: Oh, epic rat battles of history.
• 3:16:32
  Speaker 7: Just harpen away, don't dun, don't look so kick his
• 3:16:36
  Speaker 7: ass though.
• 3:16:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Tom's way more of a polymath. He's the real
• 3:16:39
  Speaker 3: renaissance man death Harp do.
• 3:16:44
  Speaker 7: Totally with Tom.
• 3:16:47
  Speaker 9: That would be the best rat battle video. Yeah, by far.
• 3:16:51
  Speaker 2: Realistically, Tom couldn't win because if you have like centuries
• 3:16:54
  Speaker 2: to practice. Probably was good.
• 3:16:57
  Speaker 3: But did Hasmodi in practice or did he just Miller
• 3:17:01
  Speaker 3: who now he was actually a composer?
• 3:17:03
  Speaker 2: Fair point. I think he was good.
• 3:17:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think he was good.
• 3:17:07
  Speaker 2: He just killed anyone who was better. Yeah, yeah, that
• 3:17:10
  Speaker 2: is one way to be the best. By that look,
• 3:17:12
  Speaker 2: by that logic, he would have had been to be
• 3:17:14
  Speaker 2: at least a little bit good, because otherwise everybody else
• 3:17:17
  Speaker 2: would be dead and nobody knew what music was. Nobody
• 3:17:21
  Speaker 2: knows us?
• 3:17:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah right, it wasn't that.
• 3:17:26
  Speaker 2: Its movie recently about like somebody suddenly everybody forgot who
• 3:17:30
  Speaker 2: the Beatles were yesterday? Oh yeah, yeah.
• 3:17:34
  Speaker 9: I never watched that movie, but I.
• 3:17:35
  Speaker 2: Sell that, And that's that's Asmonian's thing, right, Nobody knows
• 3:17:38
  Speaker 2: some music sounds except me. So however bad I do it,
• 3:17:42
  Speaker 2: everybody will let me. I read one one bad review
• 3:17:46
  Speaker 2: and then I didn't want you anymore, just probably dumb.
• 3:17:48
  Speaker 3: I'm not really a Beatles fan, so I was, like,
• 3:17:51
  Speaker 3: I'm a big Beatles fan.
• 3:17:53
  Speaker 7: That I did.
• 3:17:54
  Speaker 3: I have recently occasionally put on some Beatles and like,
• 3:17:57
  Speaker 3: this isn't actually as bad.
• 3:17:58
  Speaker 5: As I thought it was.
• 3:17:59
  Speaker 3: But you know, when your parents are obsessed with something,
• 3:18:01
  Speaker 3: it takes a while.
• 3:18:02
  Speaker 2: We have they have the big, the big let's say,
• 3:18:06
  Speaker 2: red door in the room of to other people who die,
• 3:18:10
  Speaker 2: which is probably a good segue into our going forward.
• 3:18:15
  Speaker 2: What does this mean? It's what this this book mean
• 3:18:18
  Speaker 2: for the later story point because the fact that Moraine
• 3:18:23
  Speaker 2: leaves changes a lot.
• 3:18:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 3:18:26
  Speaker 7: I was just wondering if Random adds Moraine's name to
• 3:18:28
  Speaker 7: his list. I can't remember right now, Yes, yes he does. Right,
• 3:18:33
  Speaker 7: he's such a weirdo. Even if he's near someone when
• 3:18:36
  Speaker 7: they die, he's just like, Yep, that name's going on
• 3:18:38
  Speaker 7: my list.
• 3:18:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:18:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And her loss is really big for more than
• 3:18:42
  Speaker 3: just rand right, Like this changes the relationship of the
• 3:18:47
  Speaker 3: Supergirls to the White Tower.
• 3:18:48
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 3:18:48
  Speaker 3: This happens at this virtually the same time as Swan
• 3:18:51
  Speaker 3: is deposed, like this huge amount of shakeup and like
• 3:18:54
  Speaker 3: the isid Eyes and the Novices acceptance relationship to each other.
• 3:18:58
  Speaker 3: Starting with the deposition and ending with the Red Door frame,
• 3:19:01
  Speaker 3: it's like, and all your good guys are gone.
• 3:19:03
  Speaker 2: It also, in my opinion, changes the whole dynamic of
• 3:19:06
  Speaker 2: the books, because before that you had you had the
• 3:19:08
  Speaker 2: innocent farm boys, and you had Mora Rain who knew
• 3:19:10
  Speaker 2: every everything. Come in and lead them into this world
• 3:19:14
  Speaker 2: and explain everything. And now she's gone and they are
• 3:19:17
  Speaker 2: the ones who figure it out by themselves. There's no
• 3:19:20
  Speaker 2: layer above them, right, It's it's a Dumbledore thing, like
• 3:19:24
  Speaker 2: she has to go for them to for them to
• 3:19:27
  Speaker 2: fully actualize their potential, because she'd be a security blanket.
• 3:19:31
  Speaker 2: But it's also from a from a narrative narrative standpoint,
• 3:19:36
  Speaker 2: it's there's nobody left who knows more than the people
• 3:19:39
  Speaker 2: in whose heads we are all the time.
• 3:19:41
  Speaker 7: So you guys know the hero's journey, right the Yes? Yeah,
• 3:19:46
  Speaker 7: So like although with Wheel of Time, because of how
• 3:19:50
  Speaker 7: many characters there are and how large it is, I
• 3:19:52
  Speaker 7: feel like there's many variations of the hero's journey going
• 3:19:55
  Speaker 7: on simultaneously with different characters. But and like photo while
• 3:20:00
  Speaker 7: Rand even thinks Tom died when he loses the like
• 3:20:04
  Speaker 7: when him and matter traveling.
• 3:20:06
  Speaker 9: With Tom, when right when he fights the murderer.
• 3:20:09
  Speaker 7: Yes, exactly, so that that was like zero point one
• 3:20:13
  Speaker 7: version of the death of the what's it called?
• 3:20:17
  Speaker 2: Me?
• 3:20:17
  Speaker 7: Just google the actual image that I can find the
• 3:20:20
  Speaker 7: And then this was the bigger one. This was like
• 3:20:22
  Speaker 7: the main where Marine dies and that like that decides
• 3:20:28
  Speaker 7: him going into the next arc, right mm hmm, yeah.
• 3:20:31
  Speaker 3: Because it really motivates him because now he doesn't have
• 3:20:34
  Speaker 3: anyone he can like go to for advice, Like he
• 3:20:36
  Speaker 3: was about ready to trust her with asking for advice
• 3:20:39
  Speaker 3: and now nope, you are the adult in the room around. Sorry.
• 3:20:44
  Speaker 2: Always super impressed by how she managed to from these
• 3:20:49
  Speaker 2: weird visions that you get and really and how she
• 3:20:52
  Speaker 2: managed to have this tactic that she implied that she
• 3:20:56
  Speaker 2: gets him to trust her by being this subservent person stuff.
• 3:21:00
  Speaker 2: She gets this from these visions. I don't know how
• 3:21:03
  Speaker 2: that works.
• 3:21:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think she like sees like the snapshot of
• 3:21:06
  Speaker 3: like the bracelet, land fear, the doorway rand kneeling, so
• 3:21:11
  Speaker 3: like she's like, Okay, how can I set everything up
• 3:21:14
  Speaker 3: so that way like that snapshot happens. That's that's also true.
• 3:21:17
  Speaker 2: But I meant before how she manages to get him
• 3:21:19
  Speaker 2: to trust her by completely changing everything, Yeah about herself.
• 3:21:24
  Speaker 4: Basically she remembered how to how to control cidar.
• 3:21:28
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's true.
• 3:21:29
  Speaker 3: I mean least that's how she justifies it to herself.
• 3:21:31
  Speaker 2: She knew she knew the concept. That's true.
• 3:21:34
  Speaker 3: This is a nice graphic that Nina. I don't know
• 3:21:36
  Speaker 3: if I've ever actually seen this before, Like I know
• 3:21:38
  Speaker 3: what the hero's journey is, I've never seen this graphic.
• 3:21:41
  Speaker 7: There's many versions of it, of course, there's a lot
• 3:21:43
  Speaker 7: of the Lynx version. You know, you can find it
• 3:21:46
  Speaker 7: for specific books as well, but I think this is
• 3:21:49
  Speaker 7: the basic so it and like, I find this fascinating.
• 3:21:52
  Speaker 7: Once you've seen it, you just can't not see it,
• 3:21:55
  Speaker 7: especially in like fantasy books. I see it everywhere, whether
• 3:21:59
  Speaker 7: it be Lord of the Rings was of course the
• 3:22:02
  Speaker 7: trim stor m hmm.
• 3:22:03
  Speaker 13: I also like this graphic is in a real form. Yeah,
• 3:22:07
  Speaker 13: of course, cyclica makes me happy. I have put in
• 3:22:11
  Speaker 13: the Googo doc two quotes about Marraine, which I really like.
• 3:22:14
  Speaker 13: Maybe somebody else would like to read them.
• 3:22:16
  Speaker 3: For ones, I'll read one of them. Oh, this is
• 3:22:19
  Speaker 3: a good one.
• 3:22:20
  Speaker 12: This is one by her and one about her.
• 3:22:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll read the one that's by her because
• 3:22:25
  Speaker 3: it's a good one. We have made the world dance
• 3:22:28
  Speaker 3: as we sang for three thousand years. That is a
• 3:22:31
  Speaker 3: difficult habit to break. As I have learned while dancing
• 3:22:33
  Speaker 3: to your song, you must dance free. Even the best
• 3:22:37
  Speaker 3: intention of my sisters may well try to guide your
• 3:22:39
  Speaker 3: steps as I once did. Yeah, that's her entire lesson
• 3:22:42
  Speaker 3: that she learns. Like at the eleventh hour, M I
• 3:22:46
  Speaker 3: have to say.
• 3:22:47
  Speaker 2: A radio you've learned to read so well by doing
• 3:22:49
  Speaker 2: your podcast, thank you if I remember your first episode
• 3:22:52
  Speaker 2: and now it's progressed reading.
• 3:22:54
  Speaker 7: Appreciate that she was a soldier, a warrior in her
• 3:22:58
  Speaker 7: ways as much as I. This could have happened two
• 3:23:01
  Speaker 7: hundred times these past twenty years. She knew it, and
• 3:23:04
  Speaker 7: so did I. It was a good day to die.
• 3:23:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the whole. It was a good day to die.
• 3:23:10
  Speaker 7: It's like.
• 3:23:13
  Speaker 2: It goes, it goes back again to the whole. You
• 3:23:15
  Speaker 2: must let people take credit for their own choices.
• 3:23:19
  Speaker 9: Yeah, of all the thousands of times it could have happened,
• 3:23:22
  Speaker 9: this was the day that it happened. And you just
• 3:23:24
  Speaker 9: have to accept it. And it was a good time
• 3:23:26
  Speaker 9: for it to have happened, and.
• 3:23:27
  Speaker 2: Not just accepted, not just to accept it, but let
• 3:23:29
  Speaker 2: them have this. It's not yours, it's not yours to give,
• 3:23:32
  Speaker 2: it's not yours to deny. She did this because it
• 3:23:36
  Speaker 2: was what she wanted to do, basically, and.
• 3:23:38
  Speaker 3: Land could accept it. Land has dedicated his entire life
• 3:23:42
  Speaker 3: to protecting her and he's like, nah, she was a soldier,
• 3:23:44
  Speaker 3: she said, okay.
• 3:23:45
  Speaker 2: He was fine with it at first, and then he bitched.
• 3:23:48
  Speaker 12: Out hard about my nief to Rand, and I was
• 3:23:51
  Speaker 12: so mad about that.
• 3:23:52
  Speaker 5: I was a sad.
• 3:23:53
  Speaker 3: He did not respond well to that, but he at
• 3:23:55
  Speaker 3: least accepted Marine's agency.
• 3:23:57
  Speaker 2: He did, he did. But then he went and he
• 3:24:00
  Speaker 2: went and said, well, now we shouldn't, we shouldn't ever
• 3:24:04
  Speaker 2: love anyone by he was such No, he was such
• 3:24:09
  Speaker 2: a great menta to rant all the time. Every everything
• 3:24:12
  Speaker 2: he said to him was was great and wise and good.
• 3:24:15
  Speaker 2: And then his parting words were just so wrong. Yeah,
• 3:24:19
  Speaker 2: but which is human.
• 3:24:21
  Speaker 9: But still, duck, it's very human, and it's very much
• 3:24:25
  Speaker 9: the stone kind of breaking a bit right. He is
• 3:24:27
  Speaker 9: such a stone faced, stone warrior kind of man. He's
• 3:24:31
  Speaker 9: never been seen from our perspective yet to have really
• 3:24:34
  Speaker 9: any emotion of any kind except for little stuff. That's
• 3:24:36
  Speaker 9: we see his conversations, but then even they're traveling, and
• 3:24:39
  Speaker 9: even then it's very like cold trying to ignore his
• 3:24:42
  Speaker 9: emotions and feelings and trying to do the right thing
• 3:24:45
  Speaker 9: by whatever he thinks the right thing is. So this
• 3:24:48
  Speaker 9: is him literally his emotions breaking through.
• 3:24:51
  Speaker 7: Yeah, like I'm really upset on this. He he knows
• 3:24:54
  Speaker 7: how he's feeling right now about Marine's death, and he
• 3:24:57
  Speaker 7: really doesn't want him to feel ninety to feel how
• 3:25:02
  Speaker 7: he's feeling like and there's a reason why, Like you know,
• 3:25:05
  Speaker 7: doctors and therapists aren't supposed to operator or you know,
• 3:25:09
  Speaker 7: work with their family members. Like, it's different when emotions
• 3:25:12
  Speaker 7: are involved like he was. He was never in love
• 3:25:15
  Speaker 7: with Morain. They were closed, they were good friends, they
• 3:25:17
  Speaker 7: were you know, partners, But it's it's easier to be
• 3:25:23
  Speaker 7: separated from it versus when you're in love with someone.
• 3:25:26
  Speaker 7: When emotions get involved, there's just another level that gets
• 3:25:29
  Speaker 7: added to it, right, That's.
• 3:25:30
  Speaker 2: Why you resisted. That's why you resisted ninety for all
• 3:25:33
  Speaker 2: this time, exactly the whole. I don't want to dress
• 3:25:35
  Speaker 2: you in widows black and stuff. By the way, I
• 3:25:37
  Speaker 2: just wanted to look something up and I realized, did
• 3:25:39
  Speaker 2: you know that the chapter where Morain tackles lamp Here
• 3:25:43
  Speaker 2: is called Choices?
• 3:25:44
  Speaker 3: I never put oh interesting nice because.
• 3:25:50
  Speaker 12: Yeah, sorry, guys, you probably mentioned that, but I didn't hear.
• 3:25:53
  Speaker 3: Because it's about the fact that Rand essentially had already
• 3:25:57
  Speaker 3: made his choices and Morain is like I'm gonna choose
• 3:26:00
  Speaker 3: around your choices for you and the whole concept of
• 3:26:04
  Speaker 3: choice and agency, and yeah, that's good job, our Jay,
• 3:26:08
  Speaker 3: good job.
• 3:26:10
  Speaker 9: Did you guys also know that the chapter title leave
• 3:26:13
  Speaker 9: Takings Chapter forty eight also appears in the three earlier
• 3:26:17
  Speaker 9: books I The World and yeah.
• 3:26:20
  Speaker 12: Yeah, I realized that at some points, like there's not
• 3:26:25
  Speaker 12: the leave Takings.
• 3:26:26
  Speaker 9: There are very very few chapter headings that appear throughout
• 3:26:30
  Speaker 9: the series. The leave Takings happens in four of the books.
• 3:26:32
  Speaker 3: Wow, never noticed that?
• 3:26:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, super Skyli says that he thinks Harriet is the
• 3:26:37
  Speaker 2: one responsible for the chapter title.
• 3:26:39
  Speaker 3: Oh well, thats good job, Harriet.
• 3:26:41
  Speaker 9: So yeah, Bambi, I have them all list to hear
• 3:26:44
  Speaker 9: leave Takings happens, and I have the World in chapter
• 3:26:46
  Speaker 9: ten when they all leave the two Rivers, they're all running.
• 3:26:48
  Speaker 9: Then leave Takings happens in The Great Hunt chapter nine
• 3:26:52
  Speaker 9: when they're leaving the Borderlands after the Merlin head and
• 3:26:55
  Speaker 9: Merlin and Merlin that's how I say it in my
• 3:26:57
  Speaker 9: head had come to Faldara and tries to take them away,
• 3:27:02
  Speaker 9: so they leave the border Lands. And then chapter sixteen
• 3:27:06
  Speaker 9: of The Shadow Rising, Agwang goes to the Waste and
• 3:27:09
  Speaker 9: parent goes into the ways.
• 3:27:11
  Speaker 7: Wow.
• 3:27:12
  Speaker 2: So so in the two books before, it's always when
• 3:27:15
  Speaker 2: the party breaks up.
• 3:27:16
  Speaker 9: Yeah, it's always when parts of the party breaks up
• 3:27:19
  Speaker 9: or part of our super super team basically splits off
• 3:27:21
  Speaker 9: to go on an adventure.
• 3:27:22
  Speaker 7: So yeah.
• 3:27:23
  Speaker 9: And Fires of Heaven chapter forty eight leave Takings is
• 3:27:25
  Speaker 9: when Ninive leaves the circus. Nine even the Lane leave
• 3:27:28
  Speaker 9: the circus and good.
• 3:27:29
  Speaker 3: On the book. So yeah, it's just so this is
• 3:27:32
  Speaker 3: this is a party splitting Land, right because Morain goes
• 3:27:35
  Speaker 3: off to Shindall and Land goes off to Saladar, and
• 3:27:42
  Speaker 3: Ran goes all over the place, goes to pieces I don't.
• 3:27:46
  Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, he saw all over the place. Yeah.
• 3:27:51
  Speaker 9: When I saw the leave Takings title in chapter forty
• 3:27:54
  Speaker 9: eight of Fires of Heaven, I'm like, we've seen this word, Like,
• 3:27:56
  Speaker 9: I've seen this before, I've read this before. And then yeah,
• 3:27:58
  Speaker 9: it turns out it's also the after hitting those other
• 3:28:01
  Speaker 9: few chapters. I just thought that was a really kind
• 3:28:02
  Speaker 9: of cool takeaway.
• 3:28:03
  Speaker 3: Excellent easter egg finding Rand goes on a leave taking
• 3:28:07
  Speaker 3: off his sanity, Thank you.
• 3:28:09
  Speaker 9: Super much, exactly Seth. Yeah, it's one of the episode
• 3:28:12
  Speaker 9: titles as well for the show.
• 3:28:13
  Speaker 3: So yeah, leave taking of his sanity. Yes, super skylike.
• 3:28:20
  Speaker 9: I also kind of if you guys wanted to. I
• 3:28:22
  Speaker 9: had some notes about Avian from Oh Ye Heaven as well,
• 3:28:27
  Speaker 9: because I think I had.
• 3:28:28
  Speaker 2: Not mentioned her here. He no, he glue, I'm so sorry.
• 3:28:31
  Speaker 2: I completely forgot about that.
• 3:28:33
  Speaker 7: That's okay, Oh my god, I believe.
• 3:28:38
  Speaker 9: I mean, there's a lot of ship to cover in
• 3:28:39
  Speaker 9: the tangents, but the cannot be left off.
• 3:28:44
  Speaker 2: That happens if somebody makes notes and everybody's like, yeah,
• 3:28:47
  Speaker 2: that's fine. Yeah.
• 3:28:48
  Speaker 13: Yeah.
• 3:28:51
  Speaker 9: One of the more recent live recordings that I was
• 3:28:54
  Speaker 9: present for, I can't remember what the situation was, but
• 3:28:57
  Speaker 9: I had mentioned in the chat that at the Enda
• 3:29:01
  Speaker 9: really acts like a girlfriend to both a GWayne and
• 3:29:04
  Speaker 9: Rand throughout Wellfires of Heaven and like towards the end
• 3:29:07
  Speaker 9: of the last book as well. You know, she's kind
• 3:29:09
  Speaker 9: of not the middleman between the two, but she acts
• 3:29:11
  Speaker 9: like a support person and a girlfriend both of them
• 3:29:14
  Speaker 9: in different ways throughout the entire book, which I think.
• 3:29:17
  Speaker 2: Is a huge plant for her two romantic relationships basically,
• 3:29:20
  Speaker 2: and they to have one with each others.
• 3:29:23
  Speaker 3: She's the hinge. Yeah, I think that's the word for it.
• 3:29:26
  Speaker 12: That sounds fun.
• 3:29:28
  Speaker 3: I always liked reading reading their relationship as reading Avi
• 3:29:32
  Speaker 3: and Gwen, I've always thought that they were totally like
• 3:29:35
  Speaker 3: dating friends, Like that's just it's yeah, yeah, they become
• 3:29:39
  Speaker 3: such good friends so quickly, and there's a jewelry exchanges
• 3:29:42
  Speaker 3: and like mm hmmm, yeah, well in a grain, I
• 3:29:44
  Speaker 3: like the first sister ceremony is so much like a.
• 3:29:47
  Speaker 9: Wedding, yeah, just a bit more juicy, right.
• 3:29:56
  Speaker 7: More juicy than a wedding.
• 3:29:59
  Speaker 2: It's it's for me, it's really weird talking about about
• 3:30:02
  Speaker 2: uh Elean and Avianda right now, because I always keep
• 3:30:05
  Speaker 2: thinking back on the far sister ceremony that we did,
• 3:30:07
  Speaker 2: because I mean, basically, if around is my Aavianda, because
• 3:30:11
  Speaker 2: I'm of course not the warrienda.
• 3:30:14
  Speaker 9: Well, it's just it's so intriguing because at the beginning
• 3:30:16
  Speaker 9: of the book, like Agwayne goes into Avanda's dreams almost
• 3:30:20
  Speaker 9: by accident and sees her nightmares about Rand. Right, so
• 3:30:23
  Speaker 9: we go from an aviand at the beginning of Fires
• 3:30:25
  Speaker 9: of Heaven having literal nightmares about Rand because she isn't
• 3:30:29
  Speaker 9: really allowed to process her feelings or emotions about in
• 3:30:32
  Speaker 9: real life. She has to be almost a stone warrior
• 3:30:35
  Speaker 9: as well. All of this emotion and feeling towards Ran
• 3:30:38
  Speaker 9: and her responsibility to Elaine is coming out in dream
• 3:30:41
  Speaker 9: for him, and Awayne sees that. So that almost grows
• 3:30:44
  Speaker 9: their bond too in a way because Awayne's like, oh
• 3:30:46
  Speaker 9: my god, Avanna is terrified with him, And this makes
• 3:30:49
  Speaker 9: me wonder like, was Avianda, you know, is like really
• 3:30:52
  Speaker 9: terrified of a man who can channel as well? Like
• 3:30:54
  Speaker 9: is that something that was maybe in her head for
• 3:30:56
  Speaker 9: her terror or was it all just fighting her own
• 3:30:59
  Speaker 9: love and emotions for I don't think it was the channeling.
• 3:31:02
  Speaker 3: I feel like she just brushes that off at one point, Yeah,
• 3:31:06
  Speaker 3: just like that. No, it's it's my own toe that's
• 3:31:09
  Speaker 3: really causing kittens.
• 3:31:11
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I think so too, because he is just he's
• 3:31:13
  Speaker 9: the chi car and he is what he is, and
• 3:31:15
  Speaker 9: I think she accepts that very matter of factly. But yeah,
• 3:31:18
  Speaker 9: I just thought it was interesting that at the beginning
• 3:31:20
  Speaker 9: of the book we see a little bit of her
• 3:31:22
  Speaker 9: emotional and turmoil going on through her dreams, which we
• 3:31:25
  Speaker 9: don't ever see from a reader's perspective in when she's
• 3:31:29
  Speaker 9: in real life.
• 3:31:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think she's way more. She's very
• 3:31:32
  Speaker 3: much like a dude. She's way more scared of her
• 3:31:33
  Speaker 3: emotions than she is of dying. It's a very ideal
• 3:31:38
  Speaker 3: thing she has.
• 3:31:39
  Speaker 2: She has very very strict, a very strict image of
• 3:31:42
  Speaker 2: what she should be, what she should want in life,
• 3:31:45
  Speaker 2: what she should feel, and again has a lot a
• 3:31:48
  Speaker 2: lot of cognitive dissonance about what happens with her.
• 3:31:51
  Speaker 3: And her whole Honor class is really hard.
• 3:31:53
  Speaker 2: Her teaching Elaine Gietol later makes her reevaluate where.
• 3:31:59
  Speaker 12: She might and g in different ways.
• 3:32:02
  Speaker 3: I love that process, that arc of you teach you
• 3:32:07
  Speaker 3: learn the thing better, like an a to a wetlander
• 3:32:11
  Speaker 3: that can actually start to get it, like totally deepens
• 3:32:14
  Speaker 3: her own understanding, which is awesome.
• 3:32:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, and she actually starts with her idea
• 3:32:19
  Speaker 2: of maidens Uto, which doesn't apply to her anymore. And
• 3:32:24
  Speaker 2: it's a really hard process for her that her homemaiden
• 3:32:26
  Speaker 2: training does not apply to her anymore. It coincides, of
• 3:32:29
  Speaker 2: course with her becoming a wise one and going through
• 3:32:32
  Speaker 2: this process which has to be sped up, which makes
• 3:32:35
  Speaker 2: it even harder, which makes it take longer.
• 3:32:37
  Speaker 9: And yeah, yeah, I agree with what Amy said earlier
• 3:32:40
  Speaker 9: as well. Aguain is to conservative for Avi and her
• 3:32:43
  Speaker 9: relationship to be anything more than just emotional support basically,
• 3:32:47
  Speaker 9: like when I say Avian is a girlfriend who them both,
• 3:32:49
  Speaker 9: she's definitely emotional support to Wayne kind of guiding her
• 3:32:52
  Speaker 9: through the IEO culture and teaching her about you know,
• 3:32:55
  Speaker 9: this is dealing with picking up rocks and putting them
• 3:32:57
  Speaker 9: in different piles. Like she kind of guys with through
• 3:33:00
  Speaker 9: the aspects of that.
• 3:33:02
  Speaker 12: If you've run fifty times, if you run naked fifty times.
• 3:33:05
  Speaker 2: Around attend to your friends? Yeah, around the camp here,
• 3:33:07
  Speaker 2: frit Yeah.
• 3:33:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I wonder if conservativism
• 3:33:12
  Speaker 3: in this world is different enough from what we would
• 3:33:15
  Speaker 3: understand as conservativism that that imphibition wouldn't have been there.
• 3:33:18
  Speaker 9: I don't know that she even needed it, though Ograin
• 3:33:20
  Speaker 9: was very focused, Like.
• 3:33:21
  Speaker 3: She gets her hair braided in a week later she's like,
• 3:33:24
  Speaker 3: fuck the system.
• 3:33:25
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, But at the same time, just a
• 3:33:28
  Speaker 2: mention of sister wives and I think make them run
• 3:33:31
  Speaker 2: screaming for the hills.
• 3:33:32
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, Okay, that's good. I still do think that
• 3:33:35
  Speaker 3: they have an emotional bond that's like would build to romance.
• 3:33:40
  Speaker 3: It's that intimate. They cared that much for each other.
• 3:33:42
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I agree, probably it did not physically become lovership.
• 3:33:46
  Speaker 9: But yeah, she's stealing up on Gowan.
• 3:33:49
  Speaker 3: Plus like Avi is, you know, a little bit, has
• 3:33:51
  Speaker 3: a lot on else in her mind. So but they
• 3:33:54
  Speaker 3: they go through a lot of physical trials and tribulations together,
• 3:33:57
  Speaker 3: so there's some bonding.
• 3:33:58
  Speaker 2: There's some bonding, of course. I mean for the for
• 3:34:01
  Speaker 2: the longest time, Aveanda refers to a GWayne as her
• 3:34:04
  Speaker 2: near sister, right, she watches Rand for the friend of
• 3:34:09
  Speaker 2: her near sister.
• 3:34:10
  Speaker 7: I was actually very surprised later on when her and
• 3:34:14
  Speaker 7: Elaine decided to become near sisters. I mean, it makes
• 3:34:16
  Speaker 7: sense they're they're going to be sharing Rand and all that,
• 3:34:19
  Speaker 7: But originally it did feel like we was closer to
• 3:34:22
  Speaker 7: a GWayne than she.
• 3:34:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was, she absolutely was.
• 3:34:25
  Speaker 9: Yes.
• 3:34:25
  Speaker 7: Yeah, if we don't get as much builder.
• 3:34:27
  Speaker 2: We don't know when that happens, but at some point
• 3:34:31
  Speaker 2: Elaine becomes more important to her.
• 3:34:32
  Speaker 3: It's so much of their relationship is super off screen,
• 3:34:36
  Speaker 3: and I hate it because it's I love the relationship
• 3:34:39
  Speaker 3: that comes out of it, and I wish we could
• 3:34:40
  Speaker 3: see it build.
• 3:34:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean if this bathtop scene, which.
• 3:34:44
  Speaker 3: Is more bathing, we all be working right, surely the
• 3:34:50
  Speaker 3: water is the point of the story, Like, she never gets.
• 3:34:54
  Speaker 7: Tiled with men either, and then their relationship makes total
• 3:34:57
  Speaker 7: sense later when they're so awkward around each other, don't
• 3:35:00
  Speaker 7: really know each other, but they're like, Okay, I guess
• 3:35:02
  Speaker 7: you've got to do. But they never show when and
• 3:35:08
  Speaker 7: how she gets closed.
• 3:35:09
  Speaker 2: But it's beautiful.
• 3:35:11
  Speaker 9: Yeah, a lot of man bashing in the background.
• 3:35:13
  Speaker 7: It's beautiful.
• 3:35:14
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 3:35:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, do this praise Jesus. Jesus has come to us.
• 3:35:32
  Speaker 2: It's just after Easter. What do you imagine? Yes, Jesus.
• 3:35:37
  Speaker 3: The next thing I thought was interesting in the going
• 3:35:38
  Speaker 3: forward list was that this is the last that we
• 3:35:40
  Speaker 3: see of accepted Igwain, and I thought that was a
• 3:35:42
  Speaker 3: really cool observation into her transformation in this, like, aside
• 3:35:47
  Speaker 3: from all this emotional stuff she's going through changing friendships
• 3:35:50
  Speaker 3: and continents and all of that. But we'll not continents
• 3:35:52
  Speaker 3: land masses. But you're right, this is the last of
• 3:35:56
  Speaker 3: Igwaine transitioning into being like from being an accepted into
• 3:36:00
  Speaker 3: being a sister, even though she doesn't quite know.
• 3:36:01
  Speaker 9: It yet, she's acting the sister for already basically, yeah,
• 3:36:04
  Speaker 9: she just needs the title now.
• 3:36:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, next time we'll see her, she'll be pretty much
• 3:36:09
  Speaker 2: on her way to being Amerlin. And every energy changes,
• 3:36:13
  Speaker 2: everything changes rapidly from there in her story, like until now,
• 3:36:16
  Speaker 2: she's basically basically tagged along with whatever group was there
• 3:36:21
  Speaker 2: where she could learn.
• 3:36:22
  Speaker 4: She likes that.
• 3:36:23
  Speaker 2: We've talked a lot. I think about how she is
• 3:36:26
  Speaker 2: so good at adapting to every culture she encounters, and
• 3:36:30
  Speaker 2: that's what.
• 3:36:30
  Speaker 9: Yeah, we basically just see her as a driving force
• 3:36:32
  Speaker 9: this entire time.
• 3:36:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, and I think this this uh, this thing
• 3:36:36
  Speaker 2: has now ended, like she absorbed all this, learned all
• 3:36:39
  Speaker 2: this and now and the next time we see her,
• 3:36:42
  Speaker 2: she puts it all to use. She still learns from Swan,
• 3:36:45
  Speaker 2: of course, but she gets way more agency going forward.
• 3:36:49
  Speaker 3: She basically trial runs the accepted exchange program that she proposes.
• 3:36:53
  Speaker 3: Later she goes and spends like all these months studying
• 3:36:55
  Speaker 3: with the al as An accepted.
• 3:36:57
  Speaker 2: It's a shame that she never entered when fine her
• 3:37:00
  Speaker 2: ship that feeling.
• 3:37:02
  Speaker 9: Oh, she would have been so epicacy it should have
• 3:37:04
  Speaker 9: been her.
• 3:37:05
  Speaker 2: Actually from a narrative standpoint, but doesn't didn't didn't work basically.
• 3:37:10
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I like how she takes all of her different
• 3:37:12
  Speaker 9: avenues of practice that she's gone through so far and
• 3:37:14
  Speaker 9: puts it onto a nice little bundle.
• 3:37:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:37:17
  Speaker 7: I think she also uses what she learns here with
• 3:37:19
  Speaker 7: the aisle when she gets kidnapped by the tower and
• 3:37:24
  Speaker 7: put to work as an offs.
• 3:37:27
  Speaker 2: And beaten all the time.
• 3:37:28
  Speaker 7: And beaten all the time. But she is so calm
• 3:37:30
  Speaker 7: and she like in her head when we read her
• 3:37:33
  Speaker 7: point of views, we know what's going on in her head.
• 3:37:35
  Speaker 7: But everyone else is like seeing the amuline and they
• 3:37:39
  Speaker 7: even start calling her that even though she is working
• 3:37:41
  Speaker 7: in the kitchens, right, like something like that happens.
• 3:37:43
  Speaker 9: Well, it's a perfect example of leading by example, right,
• 3:37:47
  Speaker 9: she's not showing that she's getting broken. She's showing confidence.
• 3:37:51
  Speaker 2: Dining the dining hall scenes Bambi right where the novice
• 3:37:54
  Speaker 2: has start coming to her because she doesn't sit down
• 3:37:57
  Speaker 2: on the pillow. Damn.
• 3:37:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all of that strength of will from the ael.
• 3:38:02
  Speaker 2: It's it's such a tiny thing that she that somebody
• 3:38:05
  Speaker 2: brings her the pillow, which already shows that somebody is
• 3:38:08
  Speaker 2: different deferring it to her, and she said no.
• 3:38:10
  Speaker 7: And I think she learns that here right with all
• 3:38:12
  Speaker 7: the punishment that the iel makers.
• 3:38:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I was training never would have gotten her
• 3:38:17
  Speaker 3: in the place Patrick says.
• 3:38:19
  Speaker 2: They drop her and beat her, and she makes them
• 3:38:21
  Speaker 2: look like fools. That's true with it juggling the tiny
• 3:38:24
  Speaker 2: balls of light.
• 3:38:27
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, she just keeps going like day to day
• 3:38:29
  Speaker 3: to day.
• 3:38:30
  Speaker 9: Yeah, well she's just she's such a calm, collected powerhouse.
• 3:38:33
  Speaker 2: She didn't you didn't want me to do this? Do
• 3:38:35
  Speaker 2: you mean you can't do this?
• 3:38:37
  Speaker 3: But yeah, she was. The Tower was training her to
• 3:38:39
  Speaker 3: be breakable, and the Ael made her infinitely bendable instead.
• 3:38:43
  Speaker 2: I think that's a that's one of the quotes I
• 3:38:45
  Speaker 2: didn't put in there, but I think there's the whole
• 3:38:48
  Speaker 2: the Will opens in the Storm quotas from this book.
• 3:38:51
  Speaker 3: I think it gets brought up a few times, but
• 3:38:53
  Speaker 3: I would not be surprised if this is the book
• 3:38:55
  Speaker 3: where we get the most looks.
• 3:38:56
  Speaker 2: At it anything else about it. GWayne, she doesn't do
• 3:38:59
  Speaker 2: that much in this book. I think, No, she gets
• 3:39:01
  Speaker 2: set up, goes through No, she yeah, exactly.
• 3:39:05
  Speaker 9: She she just learns, keeps learning from Avianda and yeah,
• 3:39:08
  Speaker 9: yel and she has her chats with Maraine and that's
• 3:39:11
  Speaker 9: kind of basically we just see her kind of on
• 3:39:13
  Speaker 9: the periphery of everything.
• 3:39:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's her training montage in the background.
• 3:39:17
  Speaker 9: Yeah, we see her be a bit cruel to her friends,
• 3:39:20
  Speaker 9: a bit the eye.
• 3:39:21
  Speaker 3: Of the Dragon playing in the background. I have the
• 3:39:23
  Speaker 3: dry Sorry, I'm sorry.
• 3:39:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just got I just got. Corinthian raps me
• 3:39:29
  Speaker 2: out of my head and the worst, the worst, don't
• 3:39:35
  Speaker 2: don't you know that? I can't think if I'm playing
• 3:39:36
  Speaker 2: music behind my ears, behind my eyes. I mean, oh god.
• 3:39:41
  Speaker 2: Next item on the list of things that change going forward,
• 3:39:45
  Speaker 2: we invent traveling.
• 3:39:47
  Speaker 9: That changes and that just becomes commonplace.
• 3:39:49
  Speaker 2: That changes the pace of the books, and it changes
• 3:39:52
  Speaker 2: the scope of the books.
• 3:39:53
  Speaker 3: So I wonder if RJ invented that because he was like,
• 3:39:55
  Speaker 3: my timeline and my geography are getting out of control.
• 3:39:59
  Speaker 9: I can't have people on horses and wagons all the time.
• 3:40:01
  Speaker 3: But this isn't How do I take transporters? Yeah, for sure,
• 3:40:05
  Speaker 3: I love gateways, but they are so overpowered and underutilized.
• 3:40:10
  Speaker 3: And yeah, one of the best things Brandon Sanderson did
• 3:40:15
  Speaker 3: was get creative. Yeah, that's one of the best things
• 3:40:18
  Speaker 3: Brandon Sanderson brought to the series. It's freaking' andrel's inventiveness.
• 3:40:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's so Brenton Sanderson.
• 3:40:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was what sold me on Sanderson at all,
• 3:40:25
  Speaker 3: I'm just like, Okay, if he can write this good
• 3:40:27
  Speaker 3: for real the time, I guess I'll take a spin
• 3:40:29
  Speaker 3: through his other stuff.
• 3:40:30
  Speaker 2: Of course they could be even more effective, but it
• 3:40:32
  Speaker 2: would have broken everything.
• 3:40:34
  Speaker 9: I mean a lot of things in the series could
• 3:40:36
  Speaker 9: have been more effective. Talking is one of them.
• 3:40:40
  Speaker 3: Let's not be unrealistic.
• 3:40:41
  Speaker 7: This is fantasy, not like, why communicate what I can
• 3:40:47
  Speaker 7: use magic?
• 3:40:48
  Speaker 9: Traveling in the dream to go scout locations is another one,
• 3:40:50
  Speaker 9: Like why didn't they do that with everything everywhere? To
• 3:40:53
  Speaker 9: go investigate and spy, Like if they knew they could
• 3:40:56
  Speaker 9: get notes from Alieda's office that easily? Yeah, Like, why
• 3:40:59
  Speaker 9: wouldn't you just try poke around anywhere else? Anywhere else?
• 3:41:01
  Speaker 3: Literally the gateway Aja, Yeah, it's It's definitely one of
• 3:41:05
  Speaker 3: the challenges in uh the just roll with it trying out.
• 3:41:08
  Speaker 3: The fourth age is us as players, we know how
• 3:41:12
  Speaker 3: underutilized the power was, so we keep coming up with
• 3:41:14
  Speaker 3: things that never happened in canon that like should have worked.
• 3:41:18
  Speaker 3: But like, not only is that not helpful, we're also novices, so.
• 3:41:22
  Speaker 2: You get be super overpowered so quickly.
• 3:41:24
  Speaker 3: We're trying, we try very hard, and then we get
• 3:41:26
  Speaker 3: smacked down by the law of God and it's a thing,
• 3:41:29
  Speaker 3: but it's definitely a problem because they didn't use the
• 3:41:32
  Speaker 3: power effectively enough in canon, and we have had all
• 3:41:35
  Speaker 3: this time to think about it and like engineer better solutions,
• 3:41:37
  Speaker 3: and it playing without that is.
• 3:41:41
  Speaker 9: Like you imagine if Swan could dreamlock when she was
• 3:41:43
  Speaker 9: oh my god, see with that ring, like all the
• 3:41:46
  Speaker 9: places she would aspire, Like I would have gone to
• 3:41:48
  Speaker 9: the white clothes immediately looked up on all their shit
• 3:41:50
  Speaker 9: going on, Like I would have gone all over the place,
• 3:41:52
  Speaker 9: all the different thrones if you can, just the fact
• 3:41:55
  Speaker 9: that you could look at different sheets of paper and
• 3:41:56
  Speaker 9: find information. I would do that every day, yeah, all
• 3:41:58
  Speaker 9: the time.
• 3:41:59
  Speaker 2: Probably probably have like standing use of tiny, tiny gateways
• 3:42:02
  Speaker 2: to all like offices of heads of states in their
• 3:42:06
  Speaker 2: closets or something, and that she had a room where
• 3:42:08
  Speaker 2: she go and put her ear to them in this.
• 3:42:10
  Speaker 9: Yeah, it's like Marine's eavesdropping trick on steroids.
• 3:42:13
  Speaker 3: Right, Like your mission then study is just all of
• 3:42:16
  Speaker 3: these gateways in like a you know boat out wall
• 3:42:18
  Speaker 3: like NASA or something.
• 3:42:19
  Speaker 9: Yeah, yes, yeah, right, all your numerous monitors that they're
• 3:42:23
  Speaker 9: actually literal portals.
• 3:42:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah right, fun to be one woman's CIA.
• 3:42:28
  Speaker 9: If anything, the greenage. I should have been in a
• 3:42:30
  Speaker 9: chart or something like that and utilized it.
• 3:42:32
  Speaker 2: When I when I put that in the notes, I
• 3:42:34
  Speaker 2: just thought about because I recently started reading the first
• 3:42:38
  Speaker 2: book again because I tried to make my partner read it.
• 3:42:40
  Speaker 2: I'm failing so badly at that. But and I realized
• 3:42:44
  Speaker 2: there's so much, so many travel chapters, so many travel chapters,
• 3:42:48
  Speaker 2: and that it all ends now.
• 3:42:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 3:42:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so from from one one minute to the other,
• 3:42:55
  Speaker 2: we go from a lot of traveling to.
• 3:42:58
  Speaker 3: I had never thought of how big the watershed technology
• 3:43:01
  Speaker 3: that is in terms of the narrative.
• 3:43:03
  Speaker 7: Yeah. We were just discussing the leave Takings chapter and
• 3:43:06
  Speaker 7: it takes on a whole new note with traveling being invented.
• 3:43:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, of course, and then you always need like
• 3:43:13
  Speaker 2: narrative tactics to limit it, like parent with a dream
• 3:43:16
  Speaker 2: spike and stuff.
• 3:43:18
  Speaker 9: Yeah, with all of the ketchup time we get for
• 3:43:20
  Speaker 9: not traveling.
• 3:43:21
  Speaker 2: It's the same in any any thriller or something that
• 3:43:24
  Speaker 2: you somehow have to keep people from using the.
• 3:43:26
  Speaker 12: Internet because they would end everything.
• 3:43:30
  Speaker 2: Way too quickly. I'm rereading Dress and Files at the moment,
• 3:43:34
  Speaker 2: and they just solve this by wizards can't use technology.
• 3:43:37
  Speaker 2: It breaks down, so he can't barely make telephone calls.
• 3:43:42
  Speaker 3: That's clever, I mean as a narrative way of adding
• 3:43:44
  Speaker 3: that conflict.
• 3:43:46
  Speaker 2: It's not bad. It's also funny because he's in this
• 3:43:49
  Speaker 2: wizard order where they're all super old, crusty white man.
• 3:43:52
  Speaker 2: They're not all white, but they're crusty old men, so
• 3:43:55
  Speaker 2: they would reject the technology anyways, and he would love it,
• 3:43:58
  Speaker 2: but he can't. He can barely use an elevator, he
• 3:44:02
  Speaker 2: doesn't doesn't have electricity in his house because it breaks down.
• 3:44:05
  Speaker 3: It's actually really intriguing. I want to read it.
• 3:44:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to. You have to power through some
• 3:44:10
  Speaker 2: very very weird description of women. Though he gets better,
• 3:44:13
  Speaker 2: he doesn't get good, but he gets better. But the
• 3:44:15
  Speaker 2: beginning is rough. I love dress, and I love it
• 3:44:18
  Speaker 2: so much because in the in the beginning, it's a
• 3:44:20
  Speaker 2: like detective noir procedural, and then it sneaks an epic
• 3:44:26
  Speaker 2: fantasy setting on you. You don't realize it's happening, but
• 3:44:29
  Speaker 2: at some point, like in the book five or six,
• 3:44:31
  Speaker 2: you're like, wait, what the is that been happening the
• 3:44:34
  Speaker 2: whole time in the background.
• 3:44:35
  Speaker 9: Oh, yeah, it has that sounds really neat either it's.
• 3:44:39
  Speaker 2: Neat that he was starting out at the first ones
• 3:44:42
  Speaker 2: and the first ones are not that good. But it
• 3:44:45
  Speaker 2: gets better, and it gets better quickly, and it gets
• 3:44:47
  Speaker 2: really good.
• 3:44:48
  Speaker 3: Have a little chavinistic at sometimes on the Liz we
• 3:44:52
  Speaker 3: are down to the bottle cap comment, which I don't
• 3:44:56
  Speaker 3: actually have the background to know.
• 3:44:58
  Speaker 2: That bottle cap comment means, oh.
• 3:45:00
  Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I put that in there. If anyone listens
• 3:45:03
  Speaker 9: to the Glass Cannon podcast, bottle caps are a big deal.
• 3:45:06
  Speaker 9: So this Anna putting that in there, or Anna putting
• 3:45:09
  Speaker 9: that in there was pretty funny.
• 3:45:10
  Speaker 2: I said that ran from this point on starts collecting
• 3:45:15
  Speaker 2: crowns as if they were bottle caps, and that made
• 3:45:17
  Speaker 2: cares that.
• 3:45:18
  Speaker 7: I liked it.
• 3:45:19
  Speaker 9: I enjoyed.
• 3:45:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as I said that he conquered year before, but
• 3:45:24
  Speaker 2: now he has the idea as the first nation that
• 3:45:26
  Speaker 2: he actually leads, and it's the start of a trend.
• 3:45:29
  Speaker 3: Basically, he has the hearts and the minds, not just
• 3:45:32
  Speaker 3: possession of the castle.
• 3:45:34
  Speaker 2: Right, and yeah, from now on he doesn't leave without
• 3:45:37
  Speaker 2: owning everything. Yeah, I've walked in, I own it's right. Yeah,
• 3:45:42
  Speaker 2: not taking a fifth, just take the whole.
• 3:45:44
  Speaker 7: Thing, just take he came, he saw he conquered and a.
• 3:45:48
  Speaker 2: Little bit of yeah, leaving it behind sorted out people. Yeah,
• 3:45:52
  Speaker 2: doesn't go well every time.
• 3:45:54
  Speaker 3: No, no, it does not, but yeah he does. He
• 3:45:58
  Speaker 3: does sort of become incapable of not picking up crowns
• 3:46:01
  Speaker 3: whenever he goes to unclaimed kingdoms.
• 3:46:03
  Speaker 2: It's like, right, Emperor face beginning to peek out.
• 3:46:05
  Speaker 3: As Bambi said, for sure, we got Darth and Emperor
• 3:46:10
  Speaker 3: Rand both sort of starting to come out of the wings.
• 3:46:13
  Speaker 10: On this one.
• 3:46:14
  Speaker 7: It's so run though, playing the game without knowing it,
• 3:46:17
  Speaker 7: Like crown's just falling into his lap, even though he
• 3:46:19
  Speaker 7: didn't live to figure So.
• 3:46:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the whole game of houses again. Just it's
• 3:46:25
  Speaker 2: a game of nations.
• 3:46:26
  Speaker 9: His unification obsession kind of reminds me of dlen Are
• 3:46:29
  Speaker 9: a little bit in the storm Light books.
• 3:46:31
  Speaker 2: Just clap round, just clap.
• 3:46:36
  Speaker 7: I was gonna say, dare I say game of truly?
• 3:46:38
  Speaker 3: I was totally going there.
• 3:46:42
  Speaker 7: I was very not doing that.
• 3:46:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my god, I love Baby's comment. The taver
• 3:46:48
  Speaker 3: in life chose him. He did not choose.
• 3:46:52
  Speaker 9: Life, chose live in his best tvere in life.
• 3:46:58
  Speaker 7: Yeah, maybe he's born with it. Maybe it's.
• 3:47:08
  Speaker 12: Yeah, you know, around the east and the West has
• 3:47:11
  Speaker 12: to be ye.
• 3:47:12
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, yes, you can tell we have crossed
• 3:47:14
  Speaker 3: the two hour mark when I recording, our prints are
• 3:47:18
  Speaker 3: starting to short circuit.
• 3:47:20
  Speaker 2: Mark more coffee. Mine is still playing Bohemian rasody as all,
• 3:47:26
  Speaker 2: which is not helpful for like coherent thoughts. No, it's
• 3:47:30
  Speaker 2: not a very coherent song.
• 3:47:32
  Speaker 3: But we are almost at the end of our pseudo
• 3:47:33
  Speaker 3: coherent list, which is cool.
• 3:47:36
  Speaker 9: Yes, this list has been very helpful and we needed
• 3:47:39
  Speaker 9: a list.
• 3:47:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 3:47:41
  Speaker 2: The next I had which we have a time yay, nay,
• 3:47:50
  Speaker 2: I hate that. I hate that guys.
• 3:47:51
  Speaker 7: He's bad.
• 3:47:53
  Speaker 2: He's bad, but but the storyline he starts with the
• 3:47:57
  Speaker 2: Black Tower is actually quite intriguing. Oh yeah, time of
• 3:48:00
  Speaker 2: your life. Yeah, thank you.
• 3:48:03
  Speaker 3: I the Black Tower was the most disappointing but useful
• 3:48:07
  Speaker 3: plot device in like the whole series, Like maybe, like
• 3:48:11
  Speaker 3: I think Faine and and the Black Tower were like
• 3:48:15
  Speaker 3: there staid it to be this amazing either at opportunity
• 3:48:19
  Speaker 3: or villain, and then they just kind of like petered out. Yeah,
• 3:48:23
  Speaker 3: like I love andrel and Pavara taking the Black Tower back,
• 3:48:25
  Speaker 3: but like Rand sets the Black Tower up to be
• 3:48:27
  Speaker 3: like his ace in the hole and it ends up
• 3:48:30
  Speaker 3: like being almost the reason he fails.
• 3:48:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was looming in the background so much, and
• 3:48:36
  Speaker 2: then what was going on there was great. I loved
• 3:48:40
  Speaker 2: the whole storyline of Logain taking it and Pavara and
• 3:48:43
  Speaker 2: andrel and stuff. But the scope and what it meant
• 3:48:46
  Speaker 2: for Rand to set it up and then abandon it, Yeah,
• 3:48:50
  Speaker 2: it was not as realized that it could have been.
• 3:48:53
  Speaker 3: Patrick's bringing up a good question of do we think
• 3:48:56
  Speaker 3: that tame was was a dark front on his own
• 3:48:59
  Speaker 3: power or was he turned by someone?
• 3:49:02
  Speaker 7: I feel like my word goes to he went to
• 3:49:05
  Speaker 7: the rug. I mean he he's been mistreated.
• 3:49:08
  Speaker 9: I think so too, because the Light hasn't really treated
• 3:49:11
  Speaker 9: him well.
• 3:49:11
  Speaker 7: So exactly like he's not been treated well.
• 3:49:15
  Speaker 13: Yeah.
• 3:49:15
  Speaker 3: Now I didn't mean like turned like the thirteen murder.
• 3:49:18
  Speaker 3: I just meant like co opted or convinced or did
• 3:49:22
  Speaker 3: he seek it out? And I agree, I think he
• 3:49:24
  Speaker 3: was a kind of ambitious, ruthless person that sought it
• 3:49:26
  Speaker 3: out because he wasn't getting what he wanted out of
• 3:49:28
  Speaker 3: life converted right, Yes, yes, turn has a very specific meaning.
• 3:49:34
  Speaker 7: And he was captured as well, right like. I doubt
• 3:49:37
  Speaker 7: the Sisters like treated him very well either, seeing how
• 3:49:43
  Speaker 7: they treated around MM hmm.
• 3:49:44
  Speaker 2: Those Red Sisters are so nice.
• 3:49:47
  Speaker 9: He Tamee comes in at the end of this book, right, yeah,
• 3:49:50
  Speaker 9: like the last chapter.
• 3:49:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so this is before he was I put
• 3:49:54
  Speaker 3: it in there. This is before he was shifted to
• 3:49:55
  Speaker 3: not being demondered, right, So a lot of this, like
• 3:49:57
  Speaker 3: initial dialogue has all of that, Like this has to
• 3:49:59
  Speaker 3: be a forsaken, like the way he says everything, and
• 3:50:03
  Speaker 3: he's he becomes not a Foresake, but at this point
• 3:50:06
  Speaker 3: in the writing, the way he's set up and introduced.
• 3:50:08
  Speaker 2: Is like he gets he gets defores Satan.
• 3:50:11
  Speaker 3: It's like a red herring, but it was actually a
• 3:50:13
  Speaker 3: real thing. Then it became a red herring?
• 3:50:17
  Speaker 2: Can we can we agree on calling it a red
• 3:50:19
  Speaker 2: heron whenever we are we have time talking with that.
• 3:50:24
  Speaker 3: It's a red heron head canon established guys, take note,
• 3:50:28
  Speaker 3: thank you?
• 3:50:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah I wanted that.
• 3:50:31
  Speaker 9: Yeah. The next thing you have is that there is
• 3:50:33
  Speaker 9: a very obvious lack of paren.
• 3:50:35
  Speaker 3: Everyone's favorite wolf is no.
• 3:50:38
  Speaker 2: But was it obvious?
• 3:50:39
  Speaker 3: I don't think I noticed until he came he comes
• 3:50:42
  Speaker 3: back in the next book. I'm like, wait a second,
• 3:50:44
  Speaker 3: where the.
• 3:50:44
  Speaker 2: Hell have you been?
• 3:50:45
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 3:50:46
  Speaker 9: I very much noticed because I love hearing I love
• 3:50:49
  Speaker 9: paren too, But a lot of these chapters I was
• 3:50:52
  Speaker 9: waiting for another parent reflection and we never got it.
• 3:50:55
  Speaker 9: So I very I very much.
• 3:50:56
  Speaker 2: Noticed exactly exactly Scott, like I didn't notice my first rate.
• 3:51:01
  Speaker 7: Well, my first date was so long ago that I
• 3:51:03
  Speaker 7: don't remember now, but I do feel like I remember thinking,
• 3:51:08
  Speaker 7: like whenever there's books where there's like very little or
• 3:51:11
  Speaker 7: no mat or peren, I always notice, especially since in
• 3:51:15
  Speaker 7: the book before this we had so much of Pteran.
• 3:51:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so in Path of Daggers we have no mat,
• 3:51:20
  Speaker 2: and in Crown of Thorns will have no Rand, and
• 3:51:23
  Speaker 2: we already had almost no Rand in the Rang Reborn.
• 3:51:27
  Speaker 7: Ironically, that's from everyone else's point of view except his.
• 3:51:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, he sometimes pops the fight in and back
• 3:51:35
  Speaker 2: out again.
• 3:51:36
  Speaker 3: I do like the idea that he has a really
• 3:51:38
  Speaker 3: happy honeymoon offscreen that's so drama free that it's like
• 3:51:41
  Speaker 3: we even need to see it, Like just there's a
• 3:51:43
  Speaker 3: brief happily ever after.
• 3:51:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted us to speculate what's going on in
• 3:51:47
  Speaker 2: the two reverse.
• 3:51:48
  Speaker 9: I think he's just trying to reestab re establish the area,
• 3:51:52
  Speaker 9: right because the big Tralock fight happened, the big tarlock
• 3:51:56
  Speaker 9: battle happened, and his honeymoon time is then establishing themselves.
• 3:51:59
  Speaker 9: Whether he likes an estab.
• 3:52:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, what's Loyal going doing? They're not that many books
• 3:52:05
  Speaker 2: in the Two.
• 3:52:05
  Speaker 3: Rivers, categorizing the trees and the two rivers. If Neo
• 3:52:08
  Speaker 3: is then he's catalogging.
• 3:52:11
  Speaker 2: He's doing it.
• 3:52:13
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I bet he's helping with Luke.
• 3:52:15
  Speaker 3: He's inventory.
• 3:52:16
  Speaker 9: He's putting his circus on right, probably telling I just
• 3:52:20
  Speaker 9: picture loyals. Yeah, he's working on his book. Or maybe
• 3:52:23
  Speaker 9: he's like telling stories to the village children, you know,
• 3:52:26
  Speaker 9: around a fire at night. That's what I just picture,
• 3:52:28
  Speaker 9: this big, gigantic, fluffy man with a group of kids
• 3:52:30
  Speaker 9: around him, like doing daycare.
• 3:52:32
  Speaker 2: Can we have cannon that the presence of Loyal finally
• 3:52:35
  Speaker 2: makes the Two Rivers get like a school system? Yes,
• 3:52:38
  Speaker 2: because that would be nice.
• 3:52:40
  Speaker 9: Oh he does teach the kids, Okay, any that'd be
• 3:52:42
  Speaker 9: why it was in my grain there.
• 3:52:43
  Speaker 3: I adore this. She's worked on his books and he
• 3:52:45
  Speaker 3: sets up formal education.
• 3:52:47
  Speaker 9: He's a gigantic teddy bear teacher.
• 3:52:49
  Speaker 5: Yes, please, this is a thing.
• 3:52:51
  Speaker 3: I want this.
• 3:52:52
  Speaker 9: I love that.
• 3:52:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, and Fiula is basically setting out a
• 3:52:55
  Speaker 2: government and paranis.
• 3:52:57
  Speaker 9: She's doing all the bookwork stuff, trying.
• 3:52:59
  Speaker 2: Not to be in the guver women.
• 3:53:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're like helping like re establish Terran Fairy
• 3:53:04
  Speaker 3: and like, yeah, I.
• 3:53:06
  Speaker 9: See Paren doing a lot of chopping and building and
• 3:53:08
  Speaker 9: physical labor stuff to keep his mind occupied. And then
• 3:53:11
  Speaker 9: fy you in the background, like talking to all the
• 3:53:13
  Speaker 9: wives and all of the wisdoms and all the women's
• 3:53:16
  Speaker 9: circles in all the different areas, like.
• 3:53:18
  Speaker 2: Being administ of new people and new technology, and yeah,
• 3:53:22
  Speaker 2: it's grown.
• 3:53:23
  Speaker 3: I also say that they're also having the family planning
• 3:53:25
  Speaker 3: conversation where they decide no puppies until after the last battle,
• 3:53:28
  Speaker 3: because they never talk about that. There's never a concern
• 3:53:32
  Speaker 3: with fut you know, getting pregnant, like this has to
• 3:53:33
  Speaker 3: be when they're.
• 3:53:34
  Speaker 2: Like, I wanted you if you were talking about puppies.
• 3:53:40
  Speaker 7: Listen, File is a lady of the modern age, al right.
• 3:53:43
  Speaker 7: I bet she was already Moon team man.
• 3:53:47
  Speaker 9: She is a modern woman.
• 3:53:48
  Speaker 3: I'm saying, I'm totally convinced that there is reliable herbal
• 3:53:51
  Speaker 3: birth control in this world, and I think that they
• 3:53:54
  Speaker 3: must they must have decided to not have kids until
• 3:53:57
  Speaker 3: after the last battle, because Paren never freaks out about
• 3:54:00
  Speaker 3: a potentially pregnant wife going into danger, just the wife,
• 3:54:03
  Speaker 3: not the potentially pregnant part.
• 3:54:04
  Speaker 7: So right, I'm just saying File set out to become
• 3:54:07
  Speaker 7: a hunter like she she would have expected some adventure.
• 3:54:10
  Speaker 7: I can't imagine she like was naive, not like she
• 3:54:13
  Speaker 7: wasn't naive to men, right right.
• 3:54:16
  Speaker 3: The Steph does bring up we see her flirting with Yeah,
• 3:54:20
  Speaker 3: But Steph brings up a good point in discord that
• 3:54:22
  Speaker 3: there is the kid's discussion with her parents in Lord
• 3:54:24
  Speaker 3: of Chaos. Of course there is, but I think they
• 3:54:28
  Speaker 3: made their choices before that.
• 3:54:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean she she immediately goes to which
• 3:54:33
  Speaker 2: of my children will inherent which kingdom INNY, So it's
• 3:54:37
  Speaker 2: very much.
• 3:54:37
  Speaker 12: On her mind that she's like starting a dynasty with him.
• 3:54:41
  Speaker 2: But they're young. I think even in their society there sometime,
• 3:54:45
  Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure they would wait until the last
• 3:54:48
  Speaker 2: battle because everything else would be super.
• 3:54:50
  Speaker 3: Seriously, I mean, Elaine is sort of, you know, working
• 3:54:53
  Speaker 3: with a limited timeline, so I can understand why she
• 3:54:56
  Speaker 3: goes for it, but god, damn timing girl, timing.
• 3:55:00
  Speaker 2: And I know also already was the monarch, and she
• 3:55:03
  Speaker 2: knew that she might get killed, and maybe she wanted
• 3:55:06
  Speaker 2: to get the kids out first so that'd be succession established.
• 3:55:10
  Speaker 3: And I mean the visual of eight and a half
• 3:55:13
  Speaker 3: months pregnant Aliens swinging a sword at a trolic from
• 3:55:16
  Speaker 3: horseback is like, I will accept whatever it takes to
• 3:55:19
  Speaker 3: make that that situation happen, and for having bad family planning,
• 3:55:22
  Speaker 3: decision timing is is what we need? Then? All right, fine,
• 3:55:25
  Speaker 3: because it's amazing.
• 3:55:27
  Speaker 9: That that's not a Michelangelo painting, right yeah, charging through
• 3:55:32
  Speaker 9: like the clouds and the beast with her sore and
• 3:55:34
  Speaker 9: her big belly. That's all in my head already.
• 3:55:37
  Speaker 2: Patrick asks if it and if so they and Newmanathron
• 3:55:40
  Speaker 2: end up as one nation. I think that they are
• 3:55:43
  Speaker 2: deliberately say that they would have to have at least
• 3:55:47
  Speaker 2: two kids, so their lines should be split up clearly
• 3:55:51
  Speaker 2: so it doesn't become one nation, because that was one
• 3:55:54
  Speaker 2: of the things that Elaine didn't want to right, because
• 3:55:57
  Speaker 2: she doesn't want and getting of which is fair. Yeah,
• 3:56:02
  Speaker 2: So I think I think they have a conversation about that,
• 3:56:04
  Speaker 2: that they should establish two lines. One that the royal
• 3:56:09
  Speaker 2: line of Sardea and the Stewarts of the two Rivers
• 3:56:11
  Speaker 2: should not be the same line going forward. I think so,
• 3:56:15
  Speaker 2: but of course parents are the my kids should marry whoever.
• 3:56:20
  Speaker 2: So it's like I can imagine like Elaine and Fai,
• 3:56:23
  Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're doing this SUCCESSI blah
• 3:56:25
  Speaker 2: blah blah.
• 3:56:25
  Speaker 3: He was like yeah, because he's the only one who's
• 3:56:29
  Speaker 3: like not born and bred to power. He doesn't have
• 3:56:31
  Speaker 3: a natural background like you marry.
• 3:56:34
  Speaker 2: You married to get a bigger farm.
• 3:56:36
  Speaker 9: Duh, just getting corralled on every side.
• 3:56:39
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he's the steward of the two rivers.
• 3:56:41
  Speaker 5: I think.
• 3:56:41
  Speaker 2: Is the term manetherine as such as a dirty word
• 3:56:45
  Speaker 2: to under yeah.
• 3:56:46
  Speaker 3: Me, neetherine gets put back down, and it's steward of
• 3:56:49
  Speaker 3: the two rivers. As as the birthplace of the dragon.
• 3:56:52
  Speaker 3: It's a it's like a nature reserve, but like politically
• 3:56:55
  Speaker 3: instead of ecologically. Yeah, so conclusions sort of are we there?
• 3:57:00
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 3:57:01
  Speaker 7: So we have this like famous queen in Indian folklore
• 3:57:06
  Speaker 7: who basically like all the men went to fight and
• 3:57:10
  Speaker 7: were killed or captured, so only the women were left.
• 3:57:14
  Speaker 7: And then so all the women went to fight, and
• 3:57:16
  Speaker 7: she had just had her baby, so she had it
• 3:57:18
  Speaker 7: in a sling when.
• 3:57:20
  Speaker 9: She had So this is exactly what I pictured, just
• 3:57:22
  Speaker 9: obviously a lane with that sort. That's amazing.
• 3:57:26
  Speaker 2: I like that she's that she's wearing pink tiger strip.
• 3:57:31
  Speaker 7: Of course she is.
• 3:57:32
  Speaker 2: What else, Richard?
• 3:57:33
  Speaker 3: That is amazing and wonderful? Is this a historical figure? Yeah,
• 3:57:37
  Speaker 3: there's her name. I want to look her up.
• 3:57:40
  Speaker 7: I'm gonna Rannie Lakshmibai. I'm gonna put that on Discord
• 3:57:43
  Speaker 7: as well.
• 3:57:44
  Speaker 9: I like that the baby on her back has a
• 3:57:46
  Speaker 9: very adult.
• 3:57:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean the whole perspective in this is interesting.
• 3:57:51
  Speaker 2: You see the tiny horseman underneath the horse.
• 3:57:53
  Speaker 7: M h weird.
• 3:57:54
  Speaker 2: Awesome?
• 3:57:56
  Speaker 7: Yes, how how quickly did that kid have to grow up?
• 3:58:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Right, Yeah, if you think that you shouldn't, maybe
• 3:58:05
  Speaker 2: shake Newbarnes so having it on a galloping horse.
• 3:58:07
  Speaker 9: This maybe, Oh that's a whole different version of shaking babies.
• 3:58:13
  Speaker 12: Well, it's a choice between this and dying.
• 3:58:15
  Speaker 3: Well right, yeah. It's a really good point where Elene
• 3:58:19
  Speaker 3: is like, it doesn't matter even if I like the
• 3:58:22
  Speaker 3: whole vision of men being like, oh you'll be safe.
• 3:58:24
  Speaker 3: She's like, it doesn't matter if I had that vision
• 3:58:26
  Speaker 3: or not, because at this point, the world ends if
• 3:58:29
  Speaker 3: I don't win this battle, So it literally doesn't matter
• 3:58:32
  Speaker 3: if I'm endangering my babies because I'm endangering them no
• 3:58:35
  Speaker 3: matter what the world is in danger.
• 3:58:37
  Speaker 2: And as I said, she thinks that even if she dies,
• 3:58:39
  Speaker 2: if she's babies, then her kingdom has a queen and
• 3:58:43
  Speaker 2: that's what she needs. Of Course, that she might have
• 3:58:46
  Speaker 2: a boy does not enter her mind, because.
• 3:58:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, she's like, clearly the Queen of vander
• 3:58:50
  Speaker 3: always has a girl dull. There's probably like a special
• 3:58:53
  Speaker 3: you know, like how to make sure that your baby
• 3:58:55
  Speaker 3: comes out as a girl, sort of like handbook in
• 3:58:58
  Speaker 3: the Queen's apartments.
• 3:59:00
  Speaker 2: Those are things.
• 3:59:01
  Speaker 9: So yeah, those are things that I wondered about, like
• 3:59:03
  Speaker 9: stuff in the White Tower and just in general in
• 3:59:04
  Speaker 9: the book series because it's never talked about in fantasy
• 3:59:07
  Speaker 9: series really ever, but like, how do these women control
• 3:59:10
  Speaker 9: their periods every much? How do these women control not
• 3:59:13
  Speaker 9: getting pregnant? You like the Green especially the Green Najas,
• 3:59:16
  Speaker 9: especially with their many warders. Like obviously they probably have
• 3:59:20
  Speaker 9: some sort of channeling powers that they use for that,
• 3:59:22
  Speaker 9: But I would have liked a little bit of detail
• 3:59:24
  Speaker 9: on that, to be honest, because it's just a whole
• 3:59:26
  Speaker 9: different world but never gets acknowledged, and it's a part
• 3:59:30
  Speaker 9: of you know.
• 3:59:31
  Speaker 2: The whole You just need to drink this tea and
• 3:59:33
  Speaker 2: he'll not get pregnant, as a fantasy trope that I
• 3:59:35
  Speaker 2: would love to be incorrect, right at tea?
• 3:59:39
  Speaker 4: How easy.
• 3:59:40
  Speaker 2: I don't have to I don't have to insert like
• 3:59:42
  Speaker 2: personality changing hormones into my body.
• 3:59:44
  Speaker 12: That's nice.
• 3:59:44
  Speaker 9: Depression pills not necessarily amazing.
• 3:59:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, I don't know.
• 3:59:50
  Speaker 9: It's just a bunch of stuff that you know, you
• 3:59:52
  Speaker 9: throw tea at it and there there's your solution. Well,
• 3:59:54
  Speaker 9: I kind of want to know more, to be fair.
• 3:59:56
  Speaker 2: They don't really go to the toilet as well, so
• 3:59:58
  Speaker 2: why shouldn't this.
• 3:59:58
  Speaker 3: True a battle? The fluids don't have been in the
• 4:00:00
  Speaker 3: wale of time. No, No, Elaine makes water only when
• 4:00:04
  Speaker 3: she's pregnant, though only when she's pregnant.
• 4:00:06
  Speaker 2: Right, Elaine, right, right right? It gets mentioned, gets mentioned
• 4:00:09
  Speaker 2: that Elaine and Burgidi a Bergida sync up once day
• 4:00:13
  Speaker 2: up right, which is just yeah, So there are periods, it.
• 4:00:17
  Speaker 9: Feels, which you'd never know until that point, or no, again,
• 4:00:20
  Speaker 9: until after that point.
• 4:00:21
  Speaker 2: They probably have like again, Ninive has like super absorbent
• 4:00:25
  Speaker 2: mosses or something. They put them their underware.
• 4:00:27
  Speaker 3: Or something, yeah, something something. J was a man rights
• 4:00:30
  Speaker 3: from a man's perspective for a male audience.
• 4:00:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, again and again.
• 4:00:36
  Speaker 12: Nobody has to use the bathroom all the time.
• 4:00:38
  Speaker 2: So these details obviously for by the way side.
• 4:00:42
  Speaker 9: I love it too, Bambi, because it's something that I
• 4:00:44
  Speaker 9: definitely notice.
• 4:00:45
  Speaker 12: I don't I don't give him a I don't give
• 4:00:48
  Speaker 12: him a patriarchy.
• 4:00:49
  Speaker 2: Iyebrought for this.
• 4:00:50
  Speaker 7: I feel like that maybe we couldn't be in the
• 4:00:52
  Speaker 7: Wheel of Time if we didn't love crunchy detail.
• 4:00:55
  Speaker 9: We wouldn't be doing this episode if we didn't love
• 4:00:57
  Speaker 9: crunchy detail.
• 4:00:58
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I know so many I know so many people
• 4:01:02
  Speaker 7: who like stopped reading after book three, four, five, six,
• 4:01:05
  Speaker 7: whichever one it was, but they couldn't get through because
• 4:01:08
  Speaker 7: he gets more and more granular as things go on.
• 4:01:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 4:01:12
  Speaker 12: I really can't understand that.
• 4:01:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can't understand not getting into it, like
• 4:01:16
  Speaker 2: not finishing Eye of the World or after I Have
• 4:01:18
  Speaker 2: the World. But if you've already read.
• 4:01:20
  Speaker 12: Like five books or something, how can you write?
• 4:01:23
  Speaker 9: I mean, I just I wish he had taken all
• 4:01:25
  Speaker 9: him know how this turns out.
• 4:01:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't get this.
• 4:01:29
  Speaker 9: I do wish that he could have taken his you know,
• 4:01:32
  Speaker 9: stance on detailing dresses and use that into like, oh,
• 4:01:35
  Speaker 9: then you couldn't channel today because her block was her
• 4:01:37
  Speaker 9: cramps or something, you.
• 4:01:38
  Speaker 2: Know, like that even's so awesome or any of them.
• 4:01:42
  Speaker 9: Like, yeah, I don't know. There's a lot of ways
• 4:01:44
  Speaker 9: that could have been spun to be more entertaining. But
• 4:01:47
  Speaker 9: that's that's just me.
• 4:01:48
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's why she was so angry bandy, she just
• 4:01:52
  Speaker 3: like had pcos that was her real block. Was just
• 4:01:54
  Speaker 3: like chronic pcos it's cramping hard.
• 4:02:00
  Speaker 4: I guess this all the time.
• 4:02:03
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that's true. Set Set says, maybe you don't want
• 4:02:06
  Speaker 7: to do writing about PMN.
• 4:02:07
  Speaker 9: Well Harriet had a bit of influence, right, like that's
• 4:02:10
  Speaker 9: what she was there for. But yeah, that's true. Maybe
• 4:02:13
  Speaker 9: that would have been entertaining too seeing a guy takest
• 4:02:15
  Speaker 9: at it. Yeah, do your research brow No, No, you
• 4:02:19
  Speaker 9: live with a woman and marry one, like it's there
• 4:02:23
  Speaker 9: is a whole subject. The world deals with it not
• 4:02:26
  Speaker 9: know about it.
• 4:02:27
  Speaker 7: No, it's true. But there's a whole submittate for men
• 4:02:30
  Speaker 7: writing women, and they like really make fun of how
• 4:02:33
  Speaker 7: women are sometimes described.
• 4:02:35
  Speaker 2: And this is just like down the stairs.
• 4:02:39
  Speaker 7: These are just normal descriptions. We're not even talking about periods.
• 4:02:42
  Speaker 7: Of stuff which you know they like don't see, which
• 4:02:45
  Speaker 7: is a lot of the times behind the scene.
• 4:02:48
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I really.
• 4:02:54
  Speaker 5: It's true.
• 4:02:56
  Speaker 7: We went from parent to periods.
• 4:03:02
  Speaker 9: As you do, so many parallels. I'm drawing with that
• 4:03:06
  Speaker 9: in my.
• 4:03:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, women just just break the heels of steletters and
• 4:03:12
  Speaker 2: can run. Yeah, nobody would do that. You maybe throw
• 4:03:16
  Speaker 2: your shoes away and then get splinters in your toes,
• 4:03:19
  Speaker 2: but a broken off heel does not help.
• 4:03:21
  Speaker 3: You're just running in the heels, because that's totally a
• 4:03:24
  Speaker 3: thing that is totally feasible. I would never break anyone's ankles.
• 4:03:28
  Speaker 9: Or did you guys see that that one clip of
• 4:03:30
  Speaker 9: the new Oh my God, so the chick from The Joker,
• 4:03:37
  Speaker 9: the Big Harlne pigtails Harley Quinn. Yeah, her movie that
• 4:03:41
  Speaker 9: just came out, the scene where she gives her ponytail
• 4:03:44
  Speaker 9: holder to the other Yeah, birds of Prey, she gives
• 4:03:47
  Speaker 9: her ponytail holder to the other chick actors like in
• 4:03:50
  Speaker 9: the film. And that was such a revolutionary thing because
• 4:03:52
  Speaker 9: you always see women just fighting with their hair loosen.
• 4:03:54
  Speaker 9: That would never happen in a real scenario because your
• 4:03:56
  Speaker 9: hair being in your face is of pain in the ass.
• 4:04:00
  Speaker 2: It would also look awful afterwards.
• 4:04:03
  Speaker 9: Oh yeah, I'd get caught in stuff. People would pull
• 4:04:05
  Speaker 9: your hair and use it against you. Like there's all
• 4:04:06
  Speaker 9: kinds of things that are involved with that you that
• 4:04:09
  Speaker 9: you just don't really think.
• 4:04:09
  Speaker 2: So that's the thing. I know. I'm pretty I'm totally
• 4:04:13
  Speaker 2: aware that wrestling isn't real. But still all these guys
• 4:04:16
  Speaker 2: with the long hair and that tried to pin each
• 4:04:18
  Speaker 2: other to the mat. Why don't you just step on
• 4:04:20
  Speaker 2: the guy's hair. Nobody will move if you step on
• 4:04:23
  Speaker 2: the hair, right, it's the most affecting thing ever, So
• 4:04:27
  Speaker 2: you step there.
• 4:04:28
  Speaker 7: That's so painfully.
• 4:04:29
  Speaker 3: When I knew a guy in high school who had
• 4:04:32
  Speaker 3: a bald spot on the back of his head. He
• 4:04:34
  Speaker 3: was a senior in high school and he had a
• 4:04:36
  Speaker 3: bald spot from a his hair was caught like someone
• 4:04:40
  Speaker 3: stepped on it and something happened. He had a chunk
• 4:04:42
  Speaker 3: of hair ripped out so intensely that he had a
• 4:04:44
  Speaker 3: bald spot that had not gone back in. And he
• 4:04:47
  Speaker 3: was just like big dude with like a proper beard,
• 4:04:49
  Speaker 3: and then he had this like accident induced bald spot.
• 4:04:51
  Speaker 3: So he always got cast as like old guys in
• 4:04:53
  Speaker 3: the drama department because like he was big, tall, had
• 4:04:56
  Speaker 3: a beard and had a bald spot, like a little
• 4:04:58
  Speaker 3: bit of gray, you know, hair spray and poof. He's
• 4:05:01
  Speaker 3: like the old guy while all of us other, you know,
• 4:05:03
  Speaker 3: high schoolers are running around pretending to be adults. But yeah,
• 4:05:08
  Speaker 3: I just yeah, this seral pain. This s a real pain.
• 4:05:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah right, we have actually gotten to the end of
• 4:05:14
  Speaker 3: my notes and two hours and thirty one minutes of recording.
• 4:05:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, holy shit.
• 4:05:22
  Speaker 7: I mean if I could talk to you guys forever,
• 4:05:24
  Speaker 7: I probably would those there is that two hours fo Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
• 4:05:29
  Speaker 7: I know what time do you at now?
• 4:05:31
  Speaker 2: It's a quarter to eleven. That's early for you to
• 4:05:33
  Speaker 2: find My husband has gotten home from work and looked
• 4:05:37
  Speaker 2: into the room and went back went back out again
• 4:05:39
  Speaker 2: and probably went to bed already. So I don't care.
• 4:05:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is This has been such a nice like reprise,
• 4:05:45
  Speaker 3: as like the spoiler con.
• 4:05:46
  Speaker 2: And I don't care how long we go. I probably
• 4:05:49
  Speaker 2: I'll probably right right into the stump afterwards, because I'm
• 4:05:52
  Speaker 2: pumped right now to discussed stuff. And then I never
• 4:05:56
  Speaker 2: even got into my controversial we'll have time opinion.
• 4:05:59
  Speaker 7: Yeah, we didn't get there. Maybe another episode.
• 4:06:02
  Speaker 2: I won't go there in public we should do.
• 4:06:05
  Speaker 7: A stumping out on that actually, so then everybody.
• 4:06:07
  Speaker 12: Will assassinate me on that on your online.
• 4:06:10
  Speaker 9: Yeah, do you want to talk about anything spoiler con
• 4:06:15
  Speaker 9: related or should be?
• 4:06:16
  Speaker 2: Steph wants us to do a woman's opinion on nine
• 4:06:19
  Speaker 2: even valon Luca. I think she likes to flirt. She's
• 4:06:22
  Speaker 2: in love with with Land. She likes to flirt. She
• 4:06:25
  Speaker 2: likes being seen as a sexual person for the first
• 4:06:28
  Speaker 2: time in her life. That's all about She's being.
• 4:06:31
  Speaker 3: Flirted with because he's cute and he lays on the
• 4:06:33
  Speaker 3: flattery real good. But I also really don't honestly qualify
• 4:06:37
  Speaker 3: for understanding that relationship because I don't get flirting.
• 4:06:39
  Speaker 7: So oh I do.
• 4:06:42
  Speaker 2: I flirt all the time. I think everybody who met
• 4:06:44
  Speaker 2: me knows that I've flirt all the time. It's fun. Yeah,
• 4:06:47
  Speaker 2: I think it's super new for her. It's super fun.
• 4:06:50
  Speaker 2: He flatters he so much. He sees her he has
• 4:06:53
  Speaker 2: He has no idea that she's either a wise one
• 4:06:58
  Speaker 2: or no what's it called wisdom or like important in
• 4:07:03
  Speaker 2: any way. She just sees her as a woman and
• 4:07:06
  Speaker 2: thinks she's it's new for her, it's fun. She would
• 4:07:09
  Speaker 2: never have stayed there. She would have gone insane with
• 4:07:12
  Speaker 2: this guy.
• 4:07:12
  Speaker 9: Oh he's annoying. His shit, he drives me crazy. He's
• 4:07:15
  Speaker 9: like that local that comes into the bar when you're
• 4:07:17
  Speaker 9: working and just sits at the bar by himself to
• 4:07:19
  Speaker 9: talk only to you and tries to bother you while
• 4:07:21
  Speaker 9: you're trying to do your job. Like I feel like
• 4:07:23
  Speaker 9: that's what he's doing. I need exactly, just constantly trying
• 4:07:27
  Speaker 9: to talk to her and flatter her and compliment her
• 4:07:29
  Speaker 9: and talk about the most random shit just to get
• 4:07:31
  Speaker 9: her attention. And yeah, maybe it's flattering for a bit,
• 4:07:34
  Speaker 9: but at the end of the day, it's just annoying, dude.
• 4:07:37
  Speaker 12: It's clear generally depends. It totally depends on your mood.
• 4:07:39
  Speaker 12: Like there are days where this is really nice, please
• 4:07:42
  Speaker 12: go on, and there are days so come on, no, no, no, no, dude,
• 4:07:45
  Speaker 12: I'm just trying to live here.
• 4:07:46
  Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, just.
• 4:07:49
  Speaker 2: Existing, thank you very much.
• 4:07:50
  Speaker 9: Yeah, it's definitely nice to be reminded that you're a
• 4:07:52
  Speaker 9: female and that you're attracted, right, for sure, everybody enjoys
• 4:07:55
  Speaker 9: that every now and again.
• 4:07:56
  Speaker 2: But he was just over and it was.
• 4:07:58
  Speaker 7: All that aim of his bloody ye And now, like
• 4:08:02
  Speaker 7: I get what Steph is saying. Like you don't get
• 4:08:04
  Speaker 7: the feeling that she likes it, but she does keep
• 4:08:06
  Speaker 7: going back for more. I feel like she would have
• 4:08:09
  Speaker 7: been way more harsher to shut him down if she
• 4:08:11
  Speaker 7: hadn't wanted it. And I think this is the Matt
• 4:08:13
  Speaker 7: syndrome where you know she's thinking, she's not showing it,
• 4:08:17
  Speaker 7: she's not thinking it even, or she's thinking something different
• 4:08:21
  Speaker 7: but doing something different. Like I think she enjoyed it, honestly.
• 4:08:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And she also got more and more comfortable in
• 4:08:29
  Speaker 2: her body and in her being nice looking, which probably
• 4:08:33
  Speaker 2: has to do with the compliments she's getting. Like she
• 4:08:37
  Speaker 2: doesn't think about I want a good look for this,
• 4:08:39
  Speaker 2: to look good for this dude. She thinks I want
• 4:08:41
  Speaker 2: to look good for Land who's not there, So she
• 4:08:44
  Speaker 2: does want to look good for herself, and this is nice.
• 4:08:47
  Speaker 9: It kind of teaches her that, yeah, right, that are
• 4:08:50
  Speaker 9: allowed to look good just for you, not for any other.
• 4:08:52
  Speaker 7: Purpose, right, And that brings up a good like that
• 4:08:56
  Speaker 7: makes me think that she fights so hard in the
• 4:09:00
  Speaker 7: two rivers to be seen as older than she is,
• 4:09:03
  Speaker 7: not prettier, not more beautiful, not like she needs to
• 4:09:06
  Speaker 7: be seen as the wisdom, so she needs to be
• 4:09:09
  Speaker 7: practical she needs to be like, you know, like I
• 4:09:11
  Speaker 7: don't know if that's shown as much, but you know
• 4:09:14
  Speaker 7: how men don't take pretty pretty women seriously, so she
• 4:09:17
  Speaker 7: she can't go down that road. Yeah, in the two
• 4:09:19
  Speaker 7: Rivers and then suddenly she's out in the world and
• 4:09:23
  Speaker 7: there's this Luca guy who's like not only seeing her
• 4:09:26
  Speaker 7: as pretty but also respects her.
• 4:09:28
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 4:09:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's more that she's not comfortable with
• 4:09:33
  Speaker 3: enjoying the flirting. Like that's more baby, where her discomfort
• 4:09:35
  Speaker 3: is coming from. And she's like, this is new and
• 4:09:38
  Speaker 3: I like it, and I don't know how I feel
• 4:09:39
  Speaker 3: about the.
• 4:09:40
  Speaker 2: Fact that I like it, mm hmm. And I think
• 4:09:42
  Speaker 2: I don't think that she likes it all right. It's
• 4:09:45
  Speaker 2: like a new experience, which is which is normal, which
• 4:09:49
  Speaker 2: is absolutely normal.
• 4:09:50
  Speaker 7: Totally her and the silk dress, Yeah, totally.
• 4:09:54
  Speaker 3: She takes a while to change her opinions about her opinions,
• 4:09:58
  Speaker 3: if that makes any sense.
• 4:10:00
  Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a good right to it.
• 4:10:02
  Speaker 2: And if you tell her that she did, I'll reject this.
• 4:10:04
  Speaker 7: How dare you tell me? I'm evold way her her?
• 4:10:07
  Speaker 2: This this stress is screen moment, it would be her
• 4:10:11
  Speaker 2: this dress. I actually like the spool dress.
• 4:10:15
  Speaker 9: Yeah, did you guys in the discord have any other
• 4:10:18
  Speaker 9: questions or anything, Yeah, or points that you think we
• 4:10:22
  Speaker 9: missed or should.
• 4:10:22
  Speaker 3: A good little tangent. Thank you, Steff. Yeah, spoiler con
• 4:10:26
  Speaker 3: news is that spoiler con is awesome and there will
• 4:10:28
  Speaker 3: be more news about it. Yeah, want to come.
• 4:10:30
  Speaker 9: We are sign up for the newsletter spoiler Con.
• 4:10:35
  Speaker 2: The the principle of a spoiler con is something awesome
• 4:10:39
  Speaker 2: and yeah, who knows.
• 4:10:41
  Speaker 9: Yeah, we want to encourage everybody to sign up for
• 4:10:43
  Speaker 9: the newsletter so that you can stay updated on if
• 4:10:46
  Speaker 9: there are any changes in the next coming months. Otherwise,
• 4:10:50
  Speaker 9: go to the website spoilercon dot org and you can
• 4:10:53
  Speaker 9: find all the current information there. Basically, Yeah, that's all
• 4:10:56
  Speaker 9: we can really talk about right now with everything, but.
• 4:10:58
  Speaker 3: These you know, we all actually physically got to hang
• 4:11:01
  Speaker 3: out in person and talk wheel of time for like
• 4:11:04
  Speaker 3: two and a half straight days, and it was the
• 4:11:06
  Speaker 3: goddamn best.
• 4:11:08
  Speaker 7: It was so amazing.
• 4:11:09
  Speaker 9: So it was such a whirlwind of like meeting people
• 4:11:12
  Speaker 9: for the first time that you had been talking to
• 4:11:14
  Speaker 9: for months online. You know, it's such a it's such
• 4:11:17
  Speaker 9: a surreal feeling of putting faces to discordinate.
• 4:11:20
  Speaker 3: Adjusting to voices instead of emoji strategies.
• 4:11:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I kind of liked it too.
• 4:11:26
  Speaker 7: I actually had very few Wheel of Time related conversations.
• 4:11:30
  Speaker 7: I had a lot of conversations, but very few New
• 4:11:33
  Speaker 7: Wheel of Time ones.
• 4:11:34
  Speaker 3: And they were all, it's actually really true. So we
• 4:11:36
  Speaker 3: talked we love time on discord all the time we
• 4:11:38
  Speaker 3: got together and talked about our real lives, because like, yeah, Nan,
• 4:11:40
  Speaker 3: you and I like we talked like non stop on
• 4:11:43
  Speaker 3: that walk, exactly, and that was all about life.
• 4:11:46
  Speaker 7: I don't remember half of it. It was exactly. I
• 4:11:49
  Speaker 7: don't remember half of what we discussed. It feels like
• 4:11:51
  Speaker 7: such an eon ago. Yeah, I don't think it was
• 4:11:54
  Speaker 7: about real now.
• 4:11:55
  Speaker 3: I remember a long talk about how you grew up
• 4:11:58
  Speaker 3: with not free public libraries. That's the thing I really
• 4:12:01
  Speaker 3: strongly remember. It was like your library costs money?
• 4:12:04
  Speaker 9: What. Yeah, there's a really cool little pala we had
• 4:12:09
  Speaker 9: one night too, where we all talked about how the
• 4:12:11
  Speaker 9: books came into our lives and how we all discovered
• 4:12:14
  Speaker 9: the books and what they meant to us. It was
• 4:12:16
  Speaker 9: just really cool bonding moments throughout the weekend.
• 4:12:18
  Speaker 2: That was that was so great. When we did go
• 4:12:23
  Speaker 2: around the people sitting down on the floor and stuff.
• 4:12:26
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean this this, this, uh, this walk
• 4:12:29
  Speaker 2: through the woods there, that was a Tangent episode all
• 4:12:32
  Speaker 2: of itself. I think you ada, you and I we
• 4:12:33
  Speaker 2: actually talked about the different width.
• 4:12:36
  Speaker 12: Yes, at some point why I.
• 4:12:40
  Speaker 2: Had no idea.
• 4:12:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we went through those little really narrow ones and
• 4:12:43
  Speaker 3: we got on a whole Tangent had the history of railroad.
• 4:12:45
  Speaker 2: Grades because as you do. Yeah, of course, yeah.
• 4:12:51
  Speaker 3: And I tried to remember trying to point out all
• 4:12:54
  Speaker 3: of the mountains and stuff, but it was raining way
• 4:12:56
  Speaker 3: too hard to see, like across Portland, much less to
• 4:12:58
  Speaker 3: all those cascades. I was like, over there is a volcano,
• 4:13:02
  Speaker 3: but there are volcanoes.
• 4:13:03
  Speaker 2: We could we could see the trees, so our gear
• 4:13:07
  Speaker 2: did his job.
• 4:13:08
  Speaker 7: I mean, I feel like that's the kind of thing
• 4:13:10
  Speaker 7: you have to be there to understand how awesome it was.
• 4:13:13
  Speaker 7: Like we can relax spoid like all afternoon, but.
• 4:13:18
  Speaker 3: All the way around the world for a whole twenty
• 4:13:20
  Speaker 3: four hours, just passing the baton talking about how Ason
• 4:13:23
  Speaker 3: spoiler con was.
• 4:13:25
  Speaker 7: Well.
• 4:13:25
  Speaker 9: Seth wants to know what they did wrong.
• 4:13:28
  Speaker 2: Oh you think we listened to you?
• 4:13:33
  Speaker 9: Seth said, I don't know anything.
• 4:13:34
  Speaker 3: I guess everything. I mean you want to be more specific.
• 4:13:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, every episode there's like one tiny thing
• 4:13:43
  Speaker 2: or another way. I think, Eh, but then who cares
• 4:13:45
  Speaker 2: nothing bad?
• 4:13:46
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 4:13:46
  Speaker 9: It's just it's one of those things where like, even
• 4:13:48
  Speaker 9: if you get stuff wrong, who's to say what's right wrong?
• 4:13:51
  Speaker 9: This is your interpretation of what you're reading, sentence by sentence,
• 4:13:54
  Speaker 9: and I appreciate it. I'm pretty sure that.
• 4:13:57
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that Nikola is not super super strong
• 4:13:59
  Speaker 2: in the but she has those talents which make her special.
• 4:14:03
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, yeah, I get it. What did you get
• 4:14:06
  Speaker 3: wrong in this book? I think that's what he's asking.
• 4:14:09
  Speaker 7: When he when Patrick was introduced, well, when he was
• 4:14:13
  Speaker 7: like plugging our show last time, last live recording, he
• 4:14:17
  Speaker 7: said that we'll discuss things they got wrong.
• 4:14:21
  Speaker 5: Oh, and I think that's what.
• 4:14:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I honestly don't know.
• 4:14:26
  Speaker 2: I did not take notes on that. Yeah, I if
• 4:14:30
  Speaker 2: I know, if I know, like three months ago, you
• 4:14:33
  Speaker 2: do this, then i'd have another Google doc.
• 4:15:13
  Speaker 3: That give me the tagging for this whole series. The
• 4:15:15
  Speaker 3: fuck ups were needed.
• 4:15:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 4:15:24
  Speaker 1: Rate us in the Apple Podcast app, or support us
• 4:15:26
  Speaker 1: on Patreon.
• 4:15:29
  Speaker 7: We Good luck,