Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Avatar: The Way of Water with Costume Designer, Deborah L. Scott

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Avatar: The Way of Water with Costume Designer, Deborah L. Scott · The Art of Costume Podcast

• 0:11
  Hey, you put a mask on their face and you want to make sure
• 0:14
  they even on dry land, that he can breathe.
• 0:16
  And it doesn't fog up. And right now, we have a little,
• 0:18
  we had little fans wearing in their a lot of the time, just to
• 0:21
  make sure that you didn't get that fog that you get on a mask,
• 0:24
  just from breathing The Genius of you and your team, because
• 0:27
  I've interviewed a lot of costume designers, not one of
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  them. Um, has been responsible for
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  someone not drowning. Hello and welcome to the art of
• 0:45
  costume. Blogcast, I am your host Spencer
• 0:48
  Williams, and thank you so much for joining me for another bonus
• 0:52
  episode. I am so excited to talk about
• 0:54
  today's special film. You might have heard of it.
• 0:58
  It's only the third highest grossing film of all time.
• 1:01
  Avatar, the way of water. You guys know how much I love
• 1:05
  Avatar. I talk about it, basically,
• 1:07
  every episode with that being said, I said, I am so excited
• 1:12
  for you guys to meet today's guest.
• 1:14
  She is an icon, a legend and was just honored with a career
• 1:19
  Achievement award at the costume designers, Guild Awards.
• 1:22
  You are going to love her costume designer.
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  Deborah Lynn Scott. She is amazing.
• 1:29
  I've gone to meet her quite a few times over the past.
• 1:31
  I would say month. But before we get into it, let's
• 1:34
  take care of our usual business. Let's start the summary, shall
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  we 16 years after After the navi repelled, the RDA invasion of
• 1:43
  Pandora, Jake. Sully lives as chief of the mon
• 1:46
  Takaya Clan and raises a family with materi to the navvies.
• 1:50
  Dismay the RDA returns to colonize Pandora as the Earth is
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  dying after tragic events Jenkins family exiled
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  themselves. From Naman, Takaya Retreats a
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  Pandora's Eastern Seaboard to find Refuge with the emetic.
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  I mean, a clan tar. Learned a way of water now.
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  Let's dive behind a wardrobe. We have director none, other
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  than the James Cameron and costumes designed by Deborah
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  Scott. You know, some of her work from,
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  I don't know, maybe the first Avatar film Titanic.
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  For which she won an Oscar Back to the Future.
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  Minority Report, three Transformer, films, Heat and
• 2:31
  e.t. I am so excited to introduce
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  today's special guest costume designer.
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  Deborah Linscott, welcome Deborah.
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  Thank you very much for having me, pleasure.
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  It's such an honor to be joined by you honestly.
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  I'm a big nerd of. So I'm going to try to keep the
• 3:14
  nerd levels. To a medium today, just kind of
• 3:22
  stood, that's good. But first, I have to concur,
• 3:25
  there's plenty of congratulations in order.
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  Not only were you nominated for a CD GA in the Excellence and
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  sci-fi fantasy film. Category is also announced to be
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  honored at this year's Awards if the career Achievement Award.
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  I mean, what's going through your head right now?
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  Well, it's pretty amazing. I mean, you know, you don't
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  think about it as you kind of go through.
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  A long career, but and then all of a sudden you're like, oh my
• 3:47
  goodness. My peers are actually honoring
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  me. And, you know, it's pretty.
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  It's, that's probably that aside from the fans who, you know,
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  you're so gracious grateful for liking your work, but to be
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  recognized by your peers or, I think is pretty wonderful.
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  The nominations. Pretty cool.
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  You know, hopefully we can squeak out a win but it's a
• 4:12
  tough category, it's a very tough category this year.
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  Lots of lots of colorful costume is like this past year.
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  Yeah, yeah but for you has a really just been a year, it's
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  been a couple years for this film in the process.
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  You've had such an incredible career between Vector future.
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  ET Titanic, the list goes on and on, but for me I was 14 and 2009
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  when Avatar first came out and I was gay.
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  My parents would take me every weekend.
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  It was probably very annoying to them, making them sit through
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  this very long film, but I loved it and it I Like looking back
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  on. Now, it kind of changed my life
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  in a way and it set me on a path to loving costume.
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  Designing, maybe I didn't know it back then, but that being
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  said, it's now, 20 23. It's been a long time.
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  How long have you been working on avatar?
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  The way of water, I started, I think in, in 2018 in the spring
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  we, you know, we I sort of also, because we were working on film
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  two and three for the fans out there, you know threes it
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  coming. So we, you know, we kind of
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  worked on them together for good reason, the story's a little bit
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  continuous and there's a lot of the same elements of design in a
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  way, you know, we get into some very new stuff in film 3 but for
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  Jim to shoot sort of as much in order as he could in terms of
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  the whole comprehension of the whole story, that's why we did
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  that. So it's been, you know, it was
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  I've been on Hiatus for a little bit, but it was probably five
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  and a half six years. For the two films combined for
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  me. Wow, that's incredible.
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  Is that wrong? I imagine, that must be kind of
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  exhausting because most costume designers.
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  I talk to, you know, they were gone for a couple of months.
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  Maybe. I mean, this has been a big part
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  of your life for a long time. Yeah.
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  Yes. I think that's, you know, it's
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  interesting to kind of go that long distance, you know, when
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  you're sort of used to most of us, like you said, you work on a
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  project maybe six months, you know that's that's kind of long
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  for a for a film these days but To stretch it out like that.
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  We also kind of had covid in the middle, you know, click the post
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  production and post-production on a movie and virtual reality
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  movie. Like this is, you know, with all
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  that VFX work and stuff takes a takes a very long time.
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  And I think to, to Jim's credit because he's very invested in
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  the costumes, in the movie, and didn't treat it like a design
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  and go situation where you here's some drawings on paper,
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  and you guys new artist at the digital house, can take it from
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  there. He kept me on through all of the
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  posts. Not only because I was
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  continuing my work on three but because they needed to have
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  someone to Shepherd, the process, through the whole, the
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  effects process. Well, that's agreeable.
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  Pretty cool. Yeah.
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  You recently said in an interview of / films and I love
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  what you said that we are experiencing a brand new
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  frontier for costume designers and I couldn't agree more.
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  Not just this film but so many of the films that are you know,
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  popular at this moment when it comes to film, Such as Avatar of
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  visual effects play a huge role. So a lot of people probably
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  wondering, you know, what is the role like for a costume designer
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  is to costume designer, even essential and a film like this.
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  And I'd argue, it's not even possible if that a costume
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  designer and I know that you could probably speak to that.
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  Yeah, I think it's extremely obviously, in my opinion
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  extremely essential and the reason being that because the
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  public sees it in this kind of animated, Matt, it doesn't mean
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  that the same kind of work, and I think you can see by some of
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  these pictures, the same kind of work went into creating the
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  characters, creating the world, creating both of the two clans
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  in this second film. So it's essential because who
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  else is going to do that job, right?
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  You have to have a head of department and a very, very
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  important thing because we are basically the visual
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  representations of these characters.
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  And you know, That lies with us and it's a very important part
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  of creating a character I designed the hair as well and
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  which is mind-blowing, I did not know that.
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  Until like last night, the great thing about that is because you
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  know, you always want to when you conceive of a character you
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  always conceived of it with a head and face, right?
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  So you know, it's essential to be to be able to do these
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  drawings kind of head to toe and have the elements like you can
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  see from this is Illustrated. Lokiry.
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  It's not exactly, like she looks in the movie, but it's pretty
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  darn close in terms of her body and her hair.
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  So, the concept art for that really influences that the
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  digital artists the costumes are meant to like, you can see on
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  these other pictures. Absolutely. 100% real just like
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  you would do them and any live-action movie and then sent
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  through the process. So that the costumes, look, the
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  goal being as a viewer Our as an audience member, when you're
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  looking at the characters, especially if you thank
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  goodness, go to the theater and see it in a big format that
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  they're so real. Because they are real, you're
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  sitting in your seat. And you can feel like I could
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  almost Reach Out And Touch them. That's how dimensional they are.
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  And that's why you can't accomplish a movie of this kind
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  of grandmas and an importance to with simply a drawing, right?
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  I mean, I wish you could have heard the thoughts.
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  And through my head and that Peters, I was like this, all
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  looks so real. So convincingly.
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  Beautiful. Well, thank you.
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  I mean that's I mean I think that's the that's why I think
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  too, that this is a new frontier for costume designers.
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  This is a new way to work and I think people have been kind of
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  working around it. I mean, certainly we did in the
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  first first avatar. We didn't realize then how
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  important it would be to do the costumes for real at the
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  beginning. It became a Parent through the,
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  through the production. So when we started this it was
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  absolutely a mandate to do it right from beginning to end.
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  And that's a lot of work with a lot of very talented people.
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  You know, I stand on the shoulders of a tremendous amount
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  of very talented artist designers in their own right on
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  paper and certainly the makers who made the costumes.
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  So then let's get a little bit more of the technical side, a
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  little bit more. The part that a lot of us are
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  having a hard time trying They comprehend.
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  So you're making these costumes and they're being scanned in
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  what without may be melting. All of our brains kindergarten
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  version. It's pretty simple.
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  Design on paper. Okay, designs approved.
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  Make the garments. They are made to human scale so
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  that you can see in some of these pictures were the actors,
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  the one on the bottom left or clip Curtis is actually standing
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  on a costume, you know, so that I look at that picture.
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  By the way, I know it. You know, it was pretty early
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  days but we had a lot, a lot of pieces of that particular
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  costume ready to go and you know, we did the wigs so that
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  the actors performances can be informed, just like you would if
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  you were an actor getting a bog on on getting your hair done and
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  walking onto a set for a scene, it's the same thing.
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  So they only wear the performance capture suit when
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  we're capturing their performances, but they need to
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  understand the Ship that their clothes have to their body.
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  So that's extremely important. And then that's kind of a
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  different thing than the process of sending but garments.
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  All the illustrations, every kind of piece of, you know, the
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  puzzle that you have to the digital artists so they can
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  start to recreate it on in the computer, interesting in the
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  simplest of terms, right? And then we kind of Follow that
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  process through to. What I always call virtual
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  fittings, they start a 3D model of the character in.
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  This particular garment we go back and forth, you know, either
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  on a some kind of screen. Sometimes we could do we did it
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  in person. Sometimes we did a do resume,
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  you know, sort of tailoring the costume to fit this nine-foot
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  tall, blue person to write the everything might change.
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  So it's a it's a long process of not only virtual fitting but
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  then understanding how the garments move what they're made
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  out of. And that's where a lot of
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  extensive testing of the garments come into play, so that
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  we can inform the animators and the simulators.
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  So, it's a big dealer, a lot of people involved obviously.
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  Yeah. I mean, and then we add the
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  added challenge of most of this film taking place under water.
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  I mean, yeah. I don't, honestly, I don't
• 13:05
  understand how you did it. It's incredible.
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  I love seeing all the behind-the-scenes photos of the
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  cast underwater. It did kind of look like that.
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  They did sometimes bring. Certain types of fabrics
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  underwater maybe to show the movement or costumes or the
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  water. I feel like movement is a big
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  role in this film in your your role in particular.
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  Absolutely. The movement of a garment is
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  always important in a movie. That's going to be animated,
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  mostly, it's extremely important for the reasons.
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  I already said that. They have to understand it.
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  So and Jim is a not only a big Enthusiast of movement in
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  costumes. But also proof of concept.
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  So here we see Kate Winslet wearing, you know, was very
• 13:50
  difficult to understand how someone could walk.
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  She's you know, she's 30 feet down in this gigantic tank.
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  Oh my gosh, things change weight.
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  You know how do you get it to float and then not fly in our
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  face or not fly up to high all these.
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  These could sort of technical things that we have to do to
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  make sure that the costumes, right?
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  And as well as making the performance capture suits, which
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  you see is this They're basically the same thing that
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  the performance capture suits that people might be familiar
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  with on in a dry stage on dry land, but being underwater, this
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  technology had never been used before.
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  So while the technicians were developing the way to understand
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  the movement and even here, you can see how they have markers on
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  their feet because these characters are Barefoot.
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  So the articulation of what's happening in their hands and
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  feet is extremely important And we had to figure out how to take
• 14:48
  that technology and incorporate it into something that can be
• 14:51
  worn under water. And that took about that took
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  about eight months, because it never been done before.
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  And, you know, there were a lot of developments we did there and
• 15:02
  finally landed with this silver suit because you could really,
• 15:07
  you can see how clearly you can see the body move and things
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  change color, underwater, the bright yellow is very visible.
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  Of all. So that was a technical
• 15:17
  challenge in and of itself which is brand-new.
• 15:19
  And that's why I say for students of costume design that
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  this is the these are the skills and the things that are going to
• 15:28
  start leading you into a different form of The Craft,
• 15:33
  because you need to learn a lot of different things than you
• 15:38
  would, if you were just doing a simple movie, where two people
• 15:41
  are talking to each other. Obviously right, we're going
• 15:43
  Beyond, so, At this point, we're talking about hating and gravity
• 15:48
  and physics and thanks. And that challenge is is
• 15:53
  exhilarating. It's also a challenge.
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  They don't call it that for no reason.
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  And and that's why I think, you know this as more movies, you
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  know, more movies may not be made under water, but they're
• 16:06
  certainly going to be made in this kind of virtual reality.
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  And that's important for costume designers to Learning the new
• 16:15
  skills to have a seat at the table of these movies.
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  Wow, everyone listening those. I'm not often speechless on this
• 16:22
  podcast but today I feel a little speechless.
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  It's just such an overwhelming Challenge and I just, you know,
• 16:28
  I applaud you so much. It's really incredible.
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  Well, thank you. It is difficult when you've gone
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  through the process to kind of be able to backtrack and break
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  it down in simple forms, but you know, just like anything, it is
• 16:40
  a process and I was lucky enough to be be there and be able to do
• 16:45
  it as well as the challenge of just trying to create these new
• 16:48
  characters in a new and you know, Fantastical place.
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  When he found out that a majority of this film takes
• 16:56
  place by or in an ocean where you excited nervous a little bit
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  of both. When he realized the amount of
• 17:01
  work that's going to be happening underwater.
• 17:04
  Oh yeah, that was. Well, you know, you kind of just
• 17:07
  go. Okay, that's that's her.
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  That's your environment this time, right?
• 17:10
  Yeah. It's just you've shot in the
• 17:12
  desert. You start in a forest, you Not
• 17:14
  in very cold, very hot, very different kinds of situations
• 17:18
  for live-action your whole career.
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  And now you're getting this, this is a new thing.
• 17:22
  This is going to be a new new challenge.
• 17:25
  It does bring a brought with it, a lot of kind of technical
• 17:29
  problems because we had to prove to Jim that the fibers and the
• 17:33
  things that we chose worked perfectly like in his what his
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  mind what he wanted and what I wanted from the beauty of the
• 17:41
  clothing so that you weren't leaving these.
• 17:44
  Ian's up to the animators. It's not animated movie, right?
• 17:48
  It's not. So you could draw it all day
• 17:51
  long if you wanted. But instead we proved that this
• 17:54
  is how it would work. So right?
• 17:57
  The Technic technology and the physics, and the real-life
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  informed, that designs, the designs and formed the those
• 18:05
  things too. So it was very, very back and
• 18:07
  forth, right? Which kind of leads me to the
• 18:10
  next part. I would really like to talk
• 18:12
  about your research. You did for this project.
• 18:15
  It's when we start, we see our characters and their Forest Home
• 18:17
  of them on Takaya. But, you know, we're all
• 18:20
  familiar with. We all love.
• 18:21
  By the way, best tragedy strikes.
• 18:24
  The characters Retreat to the protection of the medic hyena.
• 18:27
  I'd love to hear about your research process and formed the
• 18:30
  varying Clans and the influences that you incorporate into the
• 18:34
  costumes. Well, it's, you know, the we
• 18:37
  have the first movie just sort of as a jumping off point for
• 18:41
  the amount of client that You know, there weren't nearly as
• 18:45
  many characters, or as many costumes, and certainly not as
• 18:50
  the children. So it's a big, it's much more
• 18:52
  expanded. So it was fun to have a place
• 18:55
  where we started. And then to be able to take it
• 18:58
  in the directions that I wanted to you know sort of get it.
• 19:01
  Perhaps Bolder more interesting, show that neytiri and Jake are
• 19:06
  now, you know, it's 13 years of past 14 years.
• 19:10
  They have children, all these things would happen to a person,
• 19:13
  you know, and I think Pretty common in a, in a sequel, right?
• 19:16
  That you started, taking that story and going forward with it.
• 19:20
  So I wanted to increase the sort of the visual part of the
• 19:27
  costumes themselves. When developing the new Clan,
• 19:30
  the mechina there, there are obviously a clan that lives on
• 19:34
  the water, I researched pretty much and all and any indigenous
• 19:41
  peoples that live on or near the water.
• 19:44
  All over the world, interesting, right off China.
• 19:47
  India, the Arctic. It's amazing.
• 19:50
  How many, you know, it's an it's an anthropological Deep dive not
• 19:55
  to make a pun but, you know, that's the right costume
• 20:00
  designers are so funny, get that luxury and the fun of kind of
• 20:05
  going back to school, right? Okay, let's open it for opening
• 20:08
  up. A whole new place.
• 20:09
  Let's what do we need to do? So, we did that first.
• 20:12
  And and then I Quickly, you sort of It kind of make rules that
• 20:19
  are important to you. And one of the things that I
• 20:21
  discovered and I, you know, it's not rocket science, but that
• 20:24
  people, who live indigenous peoples, usually use their
• 20:28
  environment to help them create their clothing, that's where
• 20:30
  they get their, and they're usually highly decorative.
• 20:34
  In some way. They might be incredibly
• 20:36
  minimal. Our characters aren't as minimal
• 20:38
  as many clients around the world, their use of color.
• 20:42
  They use of the environment there.
• 20:44
  Their structure within their Clan DC or nollan and Cliff
• 20:50
  Curtis and Kate Winslet here, they're the leaders of this
• 20:53
  particular Clan. So they have you can see by how
• 20:56
  much more metal more minimal the costumes in the background, are
• 21:00
  there showing stature he with his big mantle on his neck, the
• 21:04
  color of His Garment. I love that costume.
• 21:07
  Yeah. You know, who he is when he
• 21:08
  walks in right? You're like that guy's important
• 21:11
  right? It's important for an audience
• 21:13
  member to understand that as well.
• 21:14
  Set the body art. So we ended up settling on, you
• 21:17
  know, Jim was Jim was more settled on the greater
• 21:21
  Polynesian area so that became obvious where because it's a
• 21:24
  warm climate and things like that, but it's amazing.
• 21:28
  Like I said that you can find these three lines all over the
• 21:31
  world no matter what the climate is.
• 21:34
  So that was really interesting to me and kind of gave me a path
• 21:40
  forward and then, you know, I developed the color palette I do
• 21:44
  Developed. And it was an absolute kind of
• 21:47
  joy ride to just be set loose with design after design and
• 21:50
  kind of hone into it at the same time.
• 21:54
  Do you think that we're working hand in hand with that?
• 21:56
  Is you can make a beautiful drawing.
• 21:58
  But if you have to make the costume, there are other
• 22:02
  physical challenges to that. So deciding on the materials.
• 22:06
  And the way these people are they weave they all the all the
• 22:13
  peoples on Pandora, we To some extent.
• 22:15
  These people are very accomplished, they're a much
• 22:20
  more peaceful kind of people's they have more leisure time,
• 22:24
  they're not at War and you know, so it was, you know, like I
• 22:28
  said, it's like it's a joy to kind of create a Fantastical
• 22:31
  world because you can go wherever you want with it.
• 22:33
  We would occur in sometimes two basic touchdowns but there's
• 22:38
  like the black piece that you see in the center of the black
• 22:41
  and blue Pious is a what we call a tow agard, and it's meant to
• 22:44
  To Signal their manhood in that Clan just like the cummerbund
• 22:48
  for the amount of cayenne do for the men.
• 22:50
  Oh interesting. There are things like that that
• 22:52
  are very structured and very well thought out and then it's
• 22:58
  like Oh how we how do we recommend, you know, represent
• 23:00
  that but the materials also in discovering how to make them
• 23:05
  really led to a lot of interesting.
• 23:07
  Not only design challenges but Solutions interesting.
• 23:11
  Yeah, I've believed that the use of textiles was just so
• 23:14
  beautiful. The full, but there was, like
• 23:16
  you said, braided materials. There is lots of use of shells.
• 23:19
  I mean, what was it? Like, just working with a lot of
• 23:22
  these, kind of what might seem like random materials.
• 23:25
  Yeah, I guess it is. Kind of weirdly random, huh?
• 23:30
  But yeah, but you know that it's again, opening up your mind to
• 23:35
  what could it be their environment, dictates that they
• 23:39
  have, they have, they use animals that you hide?
• 23:41
  They use reptiles use. Birds they use plants of All
• 23:46
  Sorts so you can if you can kind of find it in the sort of
• 23:52
  Fantastical pretend environment you can use it, it's really
• 23:56
  smooth like right? So it's like there and then
• 23:59
  shells that Jim always always returns to the Natural real
• 24:03
  world. Those shells that we use are
• 24:06
  real shells, we tried to the Interiors bone collar, on the
• 24:10
  left, is the bone part of it is 3D printed.
• 24:14
  Okay, for obvious reasons, which in a way it's pretty quiet.
• 24:18
  It was pretty hard to make that one.
• 24:20
  That one took a lot of trial and error and the what a beautiful
• 24:24
  piece. Yeah.
• 24:25
  I really that's one of my favorite pieces because it was
• 24:28
  so difficult to make. We went through a lot of designs
• 24:31
  kind of in the same idea but couldn't quite accomplish it in
• 24:35
  this the way that I want it, which was to make it sort of
• 24:38
  fearsome and strong but delicate, It's very feminine,
• 24:43
  you know? But it does have that feeling of
• 24:46
  protection and a warrior kind of feel to it and I'm going around
• 24:51
  and round but they use of the natural world natural textiles
• 24:56
  to create the colors and the weaving.
• 25:00
  And in the leather there's so many things that come into play.
• 25:04
  That leads me to my next question, too, because I felt
• 25:07
  like color played such a huge role in this film color.
• 25:11
  ER really to me, you know, translate to emotion, it really
• 25:16
  brings you into the world. How did you use color in this
• 25:19
  film in the costumes? Well, I kind of stuck with this
• 25:23
  concept of forests and water ocean.
• 25:28
  The amount of cayenne which are there more colorful in their in
• 25:32
  their way and my color palette that I used was really based on
• 25:38
  the Powershell for one thing because it has a Colors.
• 25:42
  And if you've ever picked up a very kind of signed up abalone
• 25:46
  shell, you see Blues greens, I mean, it's amazing.
• 25:49
  It was a challenge for the tech, the tech people to be affects
• 25:53
  people to get all that life that you see with your eyes in this
• 25:57
  sample. And the second thing I used was
• 26:00
  the colors of the mostly Sunrise, but mostly sunset on a
• 26:06
  beach because there are natural world surrounds them constantly
• 26:10
  is and that's where you get these Beautiful oranges, and the
• 26:13
  yellows, and the peaches, and the pinks.
• 26:15
  And, and you don't really see any harsh Reds or and Browns at
• 26:19
  Browns, kind of a base. That's the sort of neutral.
• 26:22
  So you'll you will see some of that.
• 26:24
  But it's really the idea of what takes, what kind of animals and
• 26:28
  plants and, and everything, that that would be on.
• 26:31
  Pandora, I love. I mean, honestly is one of my
• 26:34
  favorite parts of this film was just seeing all the textiles
• 26:37
  working with all the beautiful colors to color palates.
• 26:40
  It just, it was Almost kind of like calming and soothing enough
• 26:45
  costumes. Do.
• 26:46
  Yeah. Oh good.
• 26:47
  Well, I'm glad you felt that way.
• 26:48
  I mean, that's you want to, you know, obviously, we try to reach
• 26:51
  our our audience. Yeah.
• 26:53
  And he want to have them feel what you felt when you're
• 26:56
  creating it and get the all that drama and emotion that you can
• 27:01
  get from an article of clothing. So with all that being said,
• 27:05
  you've designed all these beautiful costumes, so much
• 27:08
  color, so much textiles, but a lot of us tend To forget that.
• 27:12
  You also had to do all the costumes for the live-action
• 27:14
  world to, we have all these soldiers.
• 27:17
  We have Edie Falco, as this really cool General showing up
• 27:20
  and honestly she was a little bit bashful to.
• 27:23
  So what was it like, designing that these live-action costumes?
• 27:27
  Well, you know, we sort of forget about that because it's
• 27:29
  not the fun part, right? It's very technical.
• 27:32
  There's there's, but we had to, we had to do all of the we did
• 27:36
  again, top to toe, all the helmets.
• 27:39
  You know there's helicopters different kinds of Lying and
• 27:43
  apparatus that we had to make sure and again you touching back
• 27:46
  to what reality looks like. Jim doesn't like science
• 27:49
  fiction, it would have been very easy to go complete sci-fi of
• 27:52
  that stuff. That wasn't the format in the
• 27:55
  first film. And it wasn't going to be the
• 27:56
  format. And the second one, we also had
• 27:59
  my associate designer for the live action portion in New
• 28:02
  Zealand. Bob Buck helped me a lot with
• 28:04
  the medical world which again is very reminiscent of film one,
• 28:08
  but we take it even farther right there.
• 28:12
  Heroes are really interesting and then there's a lot of the
• 28:14
  just a technical things of the breathing mask and all that fell
• 28:19
  under the costume Department purview which was different and
• 28:23
  really fun and they die from asks, you know, they had to
• 28:26
  actually work. You know, you're going to hear
• 28:29
  if your dive mask doesn't work. No matter how pretty it looks.
• 28:33
  It goes down there. It's got to work.
• 28:34
  So we worked with some really talented John Garvin, he's a
• 28:38
  Dive Master. So interesting, I would never
• 28:40
  have thought that you were in charge of the Yeah, because we
• 28:43
  had to, we had to figure out how to get it made, but how to make
• 28:45
  it look right. So that what that was, I'm sure
• 28:51
  incredibly expensive quite frankly, but, you know, they're
• 28:55
  saving people's lives. So that's, that's a pretty
• 28:57
  important thing. But Jim likes to kind of call it
• 28:59
  that I, that I use two parts of my, two halves, in my brain, we
• 29:03
  had two production designers. One who just did kind of the
• 29:06
  Earthly, what I would call the live action portion that human
• 29:11
  part and One, get the fantasy world.
• 29:13
  I did both so it was constantly like running back and forth and
• 29:18
  trying to keep those two parts of the movie very different from
• 29:23
  each other as well. And I appreciate, I think it's
• 29:26
  interesting that we kept the live-action soldiers military,
• 29:30
  what not a little bit more, I guess more, what we kind of
• 29:34
  known real life because then it really allows the navi to really
• 29:38
  kind of really blow you away with their High contrasting
• 29:43
  colors and textiles. So I put together if the
• 29:45
  live-action people, you really know who's who and kind of
• 29:49
  helps, you take sides a little bit too, that's very astute of
• 29:54
  you because I think the concept that the real world is more real
• 30:01
  to us fans and audience members watching the movie.
• 30:06
  And again that yeah Jim doesn't like science fiction that much.
• 30:10
  You know, they could have easily.
• 30:11
  Easily gone crazy. But he wanted them to feel real
• 30:15
  to people and then we had to also transfer those live-action
• 30:18
  costumes to Stephen Lang and his group of merry men that are, you
• 30:23
  know, also 9-foot tall and blue. So that was fun.
• 30:28
  That was a different kind of challenge because you're also
• 30:31
  trying to represent colors and fabrics in a much different way
• 30:36
  with the VFX. So it was it was a lot.
• 30:40
  It was a lot to do. We did all the props and it was
• 30:44
  a lot of work for a lot of people and I think a lot of
• 30:48
  people the detail. Yeah.
• 30:50
  And the detail the amount of time we had the the detail that
• 30:53
  we're had to go into and were allowed to was was fascinating
• 30:58
  really just learning things. Like, you know, how to keep
• 31:01
  someone from drowning underwater, perhaps or put a
• 31:06
  mask on their face and you want to make sure they even on I
• 31:09
  landed. He can breathe and it doesn't
• 31:10
  fog up. And right now, we have a little,
• 31:13
  we had little fans wearing in their a lot of the time, just to
• 31:16
  make sure that you didn't get that fog that you get on a mask
• 31:19
  just from breathing, this goes to the genius of you and your
• 31:21
  team, because I've interviewed a lot of costume designers, not
• 31:24
  one of them has been responsible for someone not drownings.
• 31:33
  Alright, so I've listened to a few interviews with the
• 31:37
  incredibly phenomenal. Cast and I heard Sigourney
• 31:40
  Weaver and specifically, Kate Winslet mentioned that one of
• 31:44
  the first times they saw their character was through
• 31:46
  illustrations and K actually mentioned through to costume
• 31:49
  design process specifically. So I was wondering to what the
• 31:55
  collaboration was like between you and the cast and if there
• 31:57
  was one oh, very much. So mean that it's it's different
• 32:02
  because again you're not dressing them every day to go
• 32:04
  out on a on a set. But that information that
• 32:08
  Costume gives it an actor is so important and an intern because
• 32:15
  you're shooting performance capture and you can watch the
• 32:18
  character also unfold in a way that you don't normally get to
• 32:21
  do in a live action movie specifically.
• 32:25
  So you know they would wouldn't for instance when Kate was cast
• 32:29
  she came and the first thing Jim would show her artwork.
• 32:33
  This is who you are. This is our world.
• 32:35
  People knew that they were going to be blue.
• 32:37
  They were going to be tall. Be Again, we have that from the
• 32:41
  first film, but all the different things that went into
• 32:45
  it and then we would show show them pieces like actual.
• 32:49
  Like here's the that neck piece that she wears with it, you see
• 32:52
  the shell so she could touch it. Look at it and absorb this
• 32:58
  concept and then absorb also, I think, being tactile was
• 33:02
  something is so important. We didn't want to lose that as
• 33:05
  part of the process just because they were never going to Wear
• 33:09
  their costume for performance, but they have to keep in mind
• 33:13
  that they are wearing it though. That's right.
• 33:15
  And so sometimes we give them stage pieces, that replicate the
• 33:18
  costumes with out on you that one shot where you see Sam
• 33:23
  wearing that kind of turquoise crazy.
• 33:25
  Looking thing that's a stage piece that would act like his
• 33:30
  Poncho and yet had enough open space.
• 33:33
  So that the markers of the performance suit weren't
• 33:35
  included. Oh, well, that's interesting
• 33:37
  because winds blowing against him, he has to feel the Poncho
• 33:40
  kind of moving across his body. Exactly, exactly.
• 33:44
  So there the interface, what a normal actor would do.
• 33:48
  If your hair is flying in your eyes, you'd go like, you know,
• 33:50
  you brush it back, right? They have to learn to do the
• 33:53
  same thing. So we've put week pieces on
• 33:54
  them, especially under water so that if your hair fell, you
• 33:58
  could move it out of the way, you can't make that up.
• 34:02
  That's real. So, you know, different people
• 34:06
  needed different amounts of Kind of reminders of the costumes.
• 34:11
  The kids, we spent two or three days with the children in
• 34:15
  costume, jumping around, just getting used to the idea because
• 34:18
  for them, they're very young actors.
• 34:21
  They don't have the necessarily the ability to hold it in a
• 34:24
  brand. That's so fascinating with the
• 34:28
  25th anniversary of Titanic raving, it's only fitting that
• 34:32
  we talked about your collaboration, with James
• 34:34
  Cameron, was that partnership and like between you and James
• 34:37
  on, you know, not This Titanic but also Avatar mean this
• 34:41
  relationships. Now gone on for a little while.
• 34:42
  So, how do you guys work together?
• 34:45
  Well, we, we've reached a really, you know, we know how to
• 34:49
  have a you have to have a dialogue with your director.
• 34:51
  You have to have sort of an understanding of what it is that
• 34:55
  they're going to ask of you especially before you start a
• 34:59
  project. But certainly learn more about
• 35:01
  that as you go along with someone and our career sort of
• 35:04
  has taken you know, our time together has been in.
• 35:08
  Chunks of time over 20, 25 years.
• 35:11
  So you learn the, you learn the level at, which Jim works at an
• 35:15
  extremely high level, very precise, very demanding.
• 35:20
  And so, you know, when you say yes that, that's how you're
• 35:23
  going to be allowed to work and asked to work.
• 35:26
  So with the support of him and the producers and all that t, if
• 35:33
  the same on Titanic, we would he would say well we had a
• 35:36
  conversation and interview we did Gather.
• 35:39
  He said that we both really like a challenge that was really
• 35:43
  simple and I say that's an understatement.
• 35:45
  But okay, he knows he's creating a giant Challenge and he wants
• 35:51
  to find the people around him that can that can go along with
• 35:54
  that are willing to take that that let on, you know, it's a
• 35:58
  big deal. So I thought that that felt like
• 36:00
  a really big compliment to me, you know?
• 36:02
  But I'm going to be afraid. I'm obsessed with this.
• 36:09
  So, final question, I believe the way water has and will have
• 36:13
  in a profound impact on film costume visual effects acting.
• 36:18
  I mean, the list goes on and on and hopefully inspires real
• 36:21
  positive change and compassion for the environment and our
• 36:23
  world. That being said, this experience
• 36:26
  has been a long one for you. But now that you are kind of on
• 36:29
  the other side of it, for at least the second film, what did
• 36:33
  this film and experience mean to you personally and
• 36:35
  professionally? Well, professionally it means,
• 36:39
  Huge amount. The, the the breaking new
• 36:42
  ground, the challenge of that is immense and wonderful.
• 36:48
  You know, it constantly keeps your brain and you creative
• 36:52
  sense. Stimulated personally.
• 36:55
  It was it was, you know, it was kind of like retreating into a
• 37:00
  thing. Well, it was exactly like
• 37:02
  retreating into a fantasy world where you could just let your
• 37:06
  ideas kind of go and And instead of being, I love doing period
• 37:11
  pieces, I love doing Titanic. It's a very precise again,
• 37:15
  right? You but you're following
• 37:16
  research, research research in this you have we had that but
• 37:22
  then beyond that was where is your mind going to take you?
• 37:26
  Where is your creative sense and spirit going to take you.
• 37:30
  So it's very rare to have an experience like this.
• 37:34
  You know, there's not that many movies there seems to be more
• 37:38
  now. With the with this sort of
• 37:40
  visual effects world and things like that.
• 37:42
  But to be able to just walk through an amazing different
• 37:46
  door, and let my mind go and let my creative, inklings do what
• 37:51
  they wanted and then and then learn how to harness it down to
• 37:54
  like, okay, well, what do you actually going to do here?
• 37:56
  You know, you can have every wild thought we had.
• 37:58
  I think we probably did 10,000 drawings and eventually you have
• 38:02
  to like, it's this. And this and this and then make
• 38:05
  it so the making was Really fulfilling it was very, very fun
• 38:12
  to work with my crew at what a workshop.
• 38:15
  People are very able with their hands to make things still
• 38:21
  there. Incredible.
• 38:22
  It's incredible. It's think it's so gratifying.
• 38:24
  It's so fun to work together with a, with a group of people
• 38:27
  like that. It sort of discover a new world.
• 38:30
  It's, it's incredible and only, you know, I think what's so cool
• 38:34
  about to is only eat. So many people have had this
• 38:36
  experience of working and that sort of thing.
• 38:38
  Pandora, fantasy world. So it's a, it's incredible.
• 38:42
  And I'm so honored to have gone to speak with you.
• 38:44
  Deborah. Thank you so much for joining
• 38:46
  us. I can't wait till the next time.
• 38:48
  Hopefully it's not, you know, another 13 years but hopefully
• 38:52
  sooner it'll be a couple of years and it's going to be a
• 38:55
  delight. There are two new clans were
• 38:57
  introducing that are wildly different than these two.
• 39:00
  Wow. And and I think it'll be a real
• 39:02
  treat for the senses. I can't wait.
• 39:04
  Let's book the date now for when we could talk next.
• 39:12
  Thank you so much, Deborah. Thank you.
• 39:14
  Thanks so much for your time. You're out of costume.
• 39:21
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• 39:26
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• 39:29
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