Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #091 Jason Flom with Harold "House" Moore

Transcript

#091 Jason Flom with Harold "House" Moore · Wrongful Conviction

0:00
Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject
0:03
Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.
0:07
Speaker 2: I ere and it hasn't been easy.
0:18
Speaker 3: One hundred years.
0:20
Speaker 4: That's man. I'm a kid.
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Speaker 5: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know
0:25
Speaker 5: that was Ah, that was real painful, man, No, because
0:29
Speaker 5: my life was discarded as if you know, like I
0:32
Speaker 5: was a piece of trash or something, you know, one
0:34
Speaker 5: hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted to
0:37
Speaker 5: do things.
0:37
Speaker 4: I wouldn't committing crimes. You know.
0:40
Speaker 5: I was a very good young man.
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Speaker 6: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops
0:45
Speaker 6: have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene,
0:49
Speaker 6: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,
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Speaker 6: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off
0:55
Speaker 6: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so
0:58
Speaker 6: many of these wrongful convictions.
1:00
Speaker 4: The opening.
1:02
Speaker 1: To sell door and I'll walk down stave and I
1:04
Speaker 1: actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt very strange
1:10
Speaker 1: to be, like I said, to be walking without no
1:12
Speaker 1: shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream.
1:14
Speaker 1: But then again it wasn't a dream.
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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. Today's
1:33
Speaker 4: guest is Harold House and that's particularly exciting to me
1:39
Speaker 4: because not only does it mark the first time that
1:41
Speaker 4: we've had an actual movie star TV star who also
1:45
Speaker 4: was wrongfully convicted on the show, but Harold and I
1:48
Speaker 4: have become friends over the last several months, So I'm
1:51
Speaker 4: really excited to have you here. So Harold, welcome to
1:53
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction.
1:54
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
1:55
Speaker 4: And like I always say, I'm happy you're here, but
1:56
Speaker 4: I'm sorry you're.
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Speaker 3: Here before we start. Man, it's just a really say
2:00
Speaker 3: how much it means to have people like yourself that care,
2:04
Speaker 3: you know. So I'm really grateful for this opportunity in
2:07
Speaker 3: this platform to speak out about my situation.
2:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is the first time that you're speaking
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Speaker 4: out publicly about this.
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Speaker 3: It should be my absolute first time ever speaking out
2:14
Speaker 3: about anything in regard to my case publicly.
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Speaker 4: I mean, you were more likely to win a damn
2:20
Speaker 4: Oscar or a Emmy or something than you were to
2:22
Speaker 4: end up in prison at the time that this all
2:25
Speaker 4: came down, and talk about that, because your acting career
2:28
Speaker 4: was taking off before this happened, right, I mean, which
2:31
Speaker 4: is why it must have been such a shock to
2:32
Speaker 4: so many people, everyone that knows you, and not only that,
2:35
Speaker 4: but you're a highly educated guy, more so than myself
2:38
Speaker 4: by far, and you're a person of faith and everything else.
2:42
Speaker 4: That doesn't mean that you couldn't have done something wrong,
2:45
Speaker 4: but it makes it more. It should have been harder
2:48
Speaker 4: for a jury to believe. But anyway, we're going to
2:51
Speaker 4: get into that surreal. But talk about that for a minute.
2:53
Speaker 4: So your career was taken off. What were you doing
2:56
Speaker 4: professionally at the time?
3:00
Speaker 3: Was in a great place career wise? I felt like
3:02
Speaker 3: I had, you know, kind of got to the point
3:04
Speaker 3: where my career was taken off. You know how they
3:06
Speaker 3: say you become an overnight success, But this was the
3:09
Speaker 3: culmination of all the hard work. I was promoting my
3:11
Speaker 3: first lead debut film and Secrets. At the time, we
3:15
Speaker 3: had a multiple city tour. I had just shot the
3:17
Speaker 3: Golden Globe Ammy nominated show Atlanta, where I was guaranteed
3:22
Speaker 3: a season's two series regular. We had just wrapped a
3:25
Speaker 3: Tupac movie I had played doctor Dre and that, you know,
3:28
Speaker 3: a ton of offers were coming in for various projects,
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Speaker 3: film projects, and it was a good time.
3:33
Speaker 2: Man.
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Speaker 3: It was a time where all the work was really
3:35
Speaker 3: starting to pay off.
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Speaker 4: I mean, you were living a dream that millions of
3:40
Speaker 4: everyday Americans have and so many people try. So the facts,
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Speaker 4: I mean of having that rug pulled out from under you,
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Speaker 4: you had a long way to fall. And well, I'm
3:51
Speaker 4: not going to put words out. I'm gonna let you
3:53
Speaker 4: tell this.
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Speaker 3: I was accused of rape at the time by my
3:57
Speaker 3: fifteen year old step daughter.
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Speaker 4: Yes, right, what people think when they hear that word,
4:04
Speaker 4: people are thinking, wait, whoa what? But in this situation,
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Speaker 4: you were set up.
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Speaker 3: It felt like it set up to some except at
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Speaker 3: the time me and my son mother was going through
4:16
Speaker 3: kind of a mild separation because of disciplinary issues I
4:19
Speaker 3: was having at the time with my stepdaughter. There was
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Speaker 3: one incident prior to where I had to kind of
4:25
Speaker 3: like discipline her for like cussing at me and being
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Speaker 3: you know, very you know, belligerent and stuff like that.
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Speaker 3: And so she went to her father's house and even
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Speaker 3: when the incident happened, I called him and said she
4:36
Speaker 3: was cussing, being extremely you know, belligerent, volatile and physical
4:40
Speaker 3: and stuff like that. And it was more a comment
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Speaker 3: like who you're talking to while you've been disrespectful type thing,
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Speaker 3: and that's kind of where all of it started to,
4:49
Speaker 3: where you know, he had at that time went to
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Speaker 3: the police and said I was beating her and choking
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Speaker 3: her and throwing her and all these you know, crazy accusations,
4:59
Speaker 3: all this co the physical conduct, me biting her on
5:02
Speaker 3: her neck. And it was actually police report where they
5:05
Speaker 3: took the young lady away from her father and she
5:09
Speaker 3: admitted that, you know, she had been talking back and
5:11
Speaker 3: that she had got in trouble and that she had
5:13
Speaker 3: caught her father to come and get her because she
5:15
Speaker 3: knew she was gonna be on punishment, and that the
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Speaker 3: officer in the police report said, I took away from
5:20
Speaker 3: her father and told that Lion was against the law
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Speaker 3: and I was here to help and only way I
5:24
Speaker 3: can do that if you be honest. And she said,
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Speaker 3: like I said, I knew I was gonna be in trouble.
5:27
Speaker 3: And she's asked her has she had any other further
5:30
Speaker 3: issues with More at the time.
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Speaker 4: So this is a report from the Gwennett County Police
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Speaker 4: Department says at the conclusion of the interview, I asked
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Speaker 4: the victim multiple times if there were any other problems
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Speaker 4: she may be having with More, meaning you Harold house Moore.
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Speaker 4: She never mentioned more touching her in an appropriate manner,
5:47
Speaker 4: or that he had been biting her on the neck,
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Speaker 4: So that would directly contradict.
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Speaker 3: The allegation from the father, who the reason why going
5:55
Speaker 3: to the setup he made all these false accusations against me.
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Speaker 3: I guess the separators. I don't know what ultimate agenda was,
6:01
Speaker 3: but I guess for us to separate or be back
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Speaker 3: with my son's mom are just envy. But all the charge,
6:09
Speaker 3: the accusations of this physicality, the sexual stuff, all started
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Speaker 3: from her father.
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Speaker 4: It's a very devastating accusation. And we know that once
6:18
Speaker 4: those meals are set in motion, it's sometimes hard to
6:22
Speaker 4: put him back on the car of the train because
6:25
Speaker 4: people get caught up in these lies and then they
6:30
Speaker 4: don't know when to stop and it becomes a very
6:33
Speaker 4: real problem.
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Speaker 3: I think in my case, where it wasn't just a lie,
6:38
Speaker 3: it was the fact that as a child, you wouldn't
6:40
Speaker 3: want your father to appear as a liar. And maybe
6:43
Speaker 3: she feared because he had a criminal history. You know,
6:46
Speaker 3: he had been in prison multiple times. He was known
6:48
Speaker 3: for doing I legal stuff. So I don't know if
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Speaker 3: she felt because at the point they told her like,
6:53
Speaker 3: lying is against the law. So now if you go
6:55
Speaker 3: back and tell the truth, your father's a liar. And
6:58
Speaker 3: at the same time, he was constantly her with financial stuff,
7:02
Speaker 3: you know, from purses to cars. I mean, I believe
7:04
Speaker 3: before it took us three and a half years to
7:06
Speaker 3: go to trial, I think she had four new vehicles
7:07
Speaker 3: before we want to trial. I mean cars that was
7:10
Speaker 3: newer than mine.
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Speaker 4: And I was on television and your case is terrifying
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Speaker 4: because it's something that could have happened to anybody. And
7:18
Speaker 4: that's why I think it's so important that you're here. Well,
7:21
Speaker 4: let's go back to that.
7:22
Speaker 3: So my story real quick in the nutshell was that,
7:25
Speaker 3: you know, we had like an incident, the early incident
7:27
Speaker 3: I told you about it, cussing and talking back. That
7:29
Speaker 3: was in February. So between February and all the way
7:32
Speaker 3: to November, we barely had any inn action. When I
7:35
Speaker 3: would come home and see my child, like we would
7:37
Speaker 3: speak like hey, we was always cordially respectful, but there
7:40
Speaker 3: was kind of like something like hitting tensions. So on Thanksgiving,
7:42
Speaker 3: her mom was like, hey, you should come here for Thanksgiving,
7:45
Speaker 3: you know, not be alone for Thanksgiving. In California, I
7:49
Speaker 3: was like, no, I'm cool. I'm gonna just stay. She's like, look,
7:51
Speaker 3: come and spend time with your son. You know she's
7:53
Speaker 3: doing good. Her attitude change, her demeanors change. You know,
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Speaker 3: she's helping out with our sons, she's doing better at school,
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Speaker 3: blah blah blah blah. So I'm like, all right, boom,
8:00
Speaker 3: I get on the plane. Fly in. That day, on
8:03
Speaker 3: the night that she made the accusation was the night
8:06
Speaker 3: that I took her and her sisters to the movies.
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Speaker 3: So after returning from the movies, they remained downstairs, the
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Speaker 3: two girls next door that were twins that went to
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Speaker 3: the movies with her sister while my stepdaughter went with
8:17
Speaker 3: her boyfriend. So after returning to the house, I left
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Speaker 3: them all downstairs talking, having girl talk or what have you,
8:23
Speaker 3: and I went upstairs and I actually dozed off in
8:25
Speaker 3: my son's room. I played golf that day, so I
8:28
Speaker 3: ended up waking up around about two o'clock in the
8:30
Speaker 3: morning because I still had my golf clothes on from earlier.
8:33
Speaker 3: So at that time I went to go use the
8:35
Speaker 3: bathroom that my son shared with his sisters. Two in
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Speaker 3: the morning, my stepdaughter was on the phone and even
8:41
Speaker 3: at that point. Then I said, hey, it's kind of late,
8:44
Speaker 3: and just left it at that. So I goes downstairs
8:46
Speaker 3: to get ready to get in shower in the master bedroom.
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Speaker 3: Come back upstairs. I'm getting some of my clothes that
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Speaker 3: was in my son's room because, like I said, me
8:53
Speaker 3: and my mom had separated, and so I was like
8:55
Speaker 3: sleep upstairs with my son in his room. The way
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Speaker 3: it set up, it's just like this was her room
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Speaker 3: bath from her sister. You can touch all everybody's rooms
9:03
Speaker 3: right here. You can touch everything. And when I came
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Speaker 3: back upstairs, I her her still on the phone. So
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Speaker 3: I yelled in the hall with like, hey, it's getting late.
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Speaker 3: You need to get off the phone. And even in court,
9:12
Speaker 3: she said he was calling my name. I just ignored him.
9:16
Speaker 3: So I walk in the room calling her name. She's
9:20
Speaker 3: not answering. So I tapped the bottom of the lake
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Speaker 3: and she's fully covered under the cover, like fully covered.
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Speaker 4: She had the blankets on it, right, So you touch
9:28
Speaker 4: her on the top of the blanket like hey, like
9:30
Speaker 4: kind of hey, like you went through to make somebody up.
9:32
Speaker 4: So you literally touched a blanket that was covering her.
9:37
Speaker 3: It was and it was like near the shen or
9:38
Speaker 3: the ankle. It wasn't. She said, I like rubbed on
9:41
Speaker 3: the inside of her thigh. That was in a police report,
9:45
Speaker 3: and then the court she says something totally different. So
9:47
Speaker 3: all of it was constantly contradicting each other. So I'm like,
9:49
Speaker 3: you know, calling her name, and she doesn't me spine,
9:51
Speaker 3: so tap her. Look, I said, hey, you know, I
9:54
Speaker 3: say her name. Take a step toward her head of
9:56
Speaker 3: the bed where she was at. She turns and she's
9:59
Speaker 3: on the phone, and the phone says love like two hours, fifteen,
10:03
Speaker 3: twenty minutes. So I'm like, hey, man, it's getting late.
10:06
Speaker 3: You need to get off the phone. She say, oh, okay,
10:08
Speaker 3: walk out the room. And then too, when I walked
10:10
Speaker 3: out the room, I text you, and I had to
10:12
Speaker 3: text to prove she responded, I said your night. I
10:15
Speaker 3: was getting late. You need to get off the phone,
10:17
Speaker 3: and she responded okay. Next then you know, the neighbor
10:20
Speaker 3: come knocking on the door. She screams her name. She
10:22
Speaker 3: just runs out the house. She never looks at me,
10:24
Speaker 3: never says nothing. So I goes and tell her mom, like, hey,
10:27
Speaker 3: you need to go check on her. She just, you know,
10:29
Speaker 3: ran out the house. She's on the phone with her boyfriend.
10:31
Speaker 3: I think he dumped her or she might be pregnant.
10:34
Speaker 3: I told her mor I was like, she had been
10:36
Speaker 3: kind of being busy, and you know, we knew that
10:38
Speaker 3: she was, you know, maybe sneaking around doing little sneaky stuff.
10:41
Speaker 3: So my initial thought process was like, she pregnant. And
10:45
Speaker 3: so when I want to got her mom, her mom
10:48
Speaker 3: goes next door. I'm lay in the bed with my son.
10:50
Speaker 3: So like fifteen minutes go by and I look outside.
10:52
Speaker 3: I see like a whole lot of police cars. So
10:54
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, what done happened? So I get dressed,
10:57
Speaker 3: get my son dressed, I go next door. I'm not
11:00
Speaker 3: gonna door. The police come like who are you? I say,
11:03
Speaker 3: my name's house. I'm coming to check on my family.
11:04
Speaker 3: They just came over here. I'm trying to see what's
11:06
Speaker 3: going on, you know, everything okay at this timet, I
11:09
Speaker 3: don't know who was it? The girl's next door. Has
11:11
Speaker 3: something happen, something happened anywhere? They was like, oh, we
11:14
Speaker 3: need to talk to you. So I was like, talk
11:15
Speaker 3: to me for what. I'm trying to find answers, just
11:17
Speaker 3: like y'all. They was like, well, can we talk to
11:18
Speaker 3: you next door, and I was like, don't what can
11:20
Speaker 3: you talk to me about? I don't know. I'm trying
11:22
Speaker 3: to figure out what's going on. And so they came
11:24
Speaker 3: to the house and they was like looking around, and
11:27
Speaker 3: he was like, what happened to night to her? And
11:28
Speaker 3: I was like, what happened when? What are you talking about?
11:30
Speaker 3: And I felt like, like, why are you questioning me
11:31
Speaker 3: about what happened about tonight? Whatever? And so eventually he
11:35
Speaker 3: ended up saying what she said, call the police house
11:37
Speaker 3: to try to rape me. So at that point I
11:40
Speaker 3: I snapped. I was like, yo, man, go get her,
11:42
Speaker 3: Go get her mom. I'm not about to do this shit.
11:44
Speaker 3: Go get all them. Blah blah blah blah. Then my
11:46
Speaker 3: son mom comes walking in with the police with her.
11:49
Speaker 3: I was like, what's going on with me? She was like,
11:50
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know. I like, see, this
11:53
Speaker 3: is that shit. This is why I don't want to
11:54
Speaker 3: come here, Like I don't have time for the drama
11:57
Speaker 3: because when I separated, when we started separating February, I
12:00
Speaker 3: don't have time to be interacting. I got too much
12:02
Speaker 3: going on to be interacting with, you know, your daughter
12:05
Speaker 3: and your ex husband and drama. You see what I'm saying.
12:08
Speaker 3: So my whole reason for even going back to California
12:11
Speaker 3: when we separated was to avoid the drama. You see
12:14
Speaker 3: what I'm saying. So it's like, how do I get
12:15
Speaker 3: back in this shit when I'm trying to avoid drama?
12:18
Speaker 3: So anyway, long story short, my initial charge they said
12:21
Speaker 3: I tried to rape her because I tapped her on
12:23
Speaker 3: her leg, like where you can do a DNA test,
12:27
Speaker 3: Like where is any physical Then the thing that made
12:29
Speaker 3: me frustrated was because you see this girl, you don't
12:32
Speaker 3: see nothing physically done to her. You don't see nothing,
12:35
Speaker 3: no physical mark, Like what in your mind makes you
12:37
Speaker 3: think that I just try to rape her? You can
12:38
Speaker 3: look at her. And then another thing that and i'ma
12:40
Speaker 3: just wrap it up, was that she said I tried
12:43
Speaker 3: to rape her. I was in charge with rape, so
12:47
Speaker 3: it's like, how was I not charged to rape? So
12:49
Speaker 3: then in Georgia they have this thing where if you
12:53
Speaker 3: touch somebody with attempt to arouse yourself, I'm like, how
12:57
Speaker 3: did I get aroused from touching her leg? Where is
12:59
Speaker 3: in the where's the indication that you was aroused? And
13:03
Speaker 3: they was like, oh, did he say something to no,
13:05
Speaker 3: I didn't say nothing to you remotely close to anything
13:08
Speaker 3: sexual where but in Georgia. That's why I feel like
13:12
Speaker 3: it was a setup, because you didn't even charge me
13:13
Speaker 3: what she lied with. You put in charge me with
13:16
Speaker 3: something you can get me convicted on. There was never
13:18
Speaker 3: an investigation for rape. Anytime a minor makes any type
13:21
Speaker 3: of outcry some type of rape, even if she recann it, legally,
13:25
Speaker 3: you're supposed to report that to the child authorities, which
13:28
Speaker 3: never happened. You're supposed to do a DNA test, which
13:31
Speaker 3: never happens. So the thing would be for you guys
13:34
Speaker 3: to do the test, but they never did the test.
13:37
Speaker 3: Because at the time she would sleep with her eighteen
13:39
Speaker 3: year old boyfriend, which is statutory.
13:41
Speaker 4: Rape because she was fourteen, she was fifteen.
13:43
Speaker 3: Her boyfriend was eighteen at the time, who you see
13:46
Speaker 3: in this picture. So even if she would have said
13:48
Speaker 3: this and took it back, Whosa said, she's not lying
13:51
Speaker 3: out of fear, and even during trial that's what I
13:53
Speaker 3: was saying. There was discipline and structure set up at
13:55
Speaker 3: my house, and you can see from this photo these
13:57
Speaker 3: were the things that were allowed at her father house.
14:00
Speaker 3: You know where she's acknowledging doing drugs, she's drinking, she's
14:05
Speaker 3: posting stuff about you know all, you know, various things
14:09
Speaker 3: that indicate the freedoms that she would have in her
14:13
Speaker 3: father's house as opposed to mine. I believe it was
14:16
Speaker 3: just rewarded behavior for continuing to support the allegations in
14:20
Speaker 3: the lives that he made up.
14:22
Speaker 4: And you can hear these papers shuffling around, but just
14:24
Speaker 4: can't see it. But the pictures that he's sharing, you know,
14:28
Speaker 4: are pictures of a young girl who is sort of
14:31
Speaker 4: almost looks like she's living the life of a hip
14:34
Speaker 4: hop star for Instagram or something like that, you know.
14:36
Speaker 4: So okay, so she was the painting a picture. She
14:39
Speaker 4: was able to live a life that she wanted to live,
14:42
Speaker 4: a you know, sort of unstructured, flamboyant life, so to speak, at.
14:48
Speaker 3: The expense of staying with her father versus a household
14:52
Speaker 3: of structure. And I think a lot of time, when
14:55
Speaker 3: you deal with the addition of the step father or
14:57
Speaker 3: step mother, but primarily the step father, there's this disconnect
15:00
Speaker 3: between him and the children. And in our case, that
15:03
Speaker 3: wasn't it. Like even when I was working here from
15:05
Speaker 3: NYC twenty two, my stepdaughters came up here with their mom.
15:09
Speaker 3: We went on multiple family trips. I was almost blindsided
15:13
Speaker 3: because I love this child as my own, and that
15:15
Speaker 3: was the hardest part for me to accept to care
15:18
Speaker 3: about somebody and you know, look at her as my own,
15:21
Speaker 3: especially like in my position. I had heard so many
15:23
Speaker 3: times where you know, people recommend you don't even date
15:25
Speaker 3: a woman with children, And for me, I'm not the
15:27
Speaker 3: type of person to allow people to dictate what I
15:29
Speaker 3: want to do with my life. I met their mom.
15:32
Speaker 3: We had great chemistry. I loved her. You know, I
15:34
Speaker 3: still love her. We still have a great relationship to
15:36
Speaker 3: this day as you see we talk. You know today
15:38
Speaker 3: she just called while we were sitting on the area,
15:40
Speaker 3: So we have a great relationship. My son mom was
15:43
Speaker 3: actually my co defendant, her sister, who's her best friend.
15:47
Speaker 3: She also testified and said on the record in my transcript,
15:51
Speaker 3: my sister's telling a lie. No one believes her. Her
15:54
Speaker 3: stories kept changing, and it's in the transcripts. I understood
15:58
Speaker 3: very little about the law prior to They never read
16:01
Speaker 3: my Miranda rights. I was falseter arrested at my house
16:04
Speaker 3: without probable calls the night that she lied. You know,
16:08
Speaker 3: and they say, oh, we wanted to take it down
16:10
Speaker 3: and speak to the investigators. And I was like, well
16:12
Speaker 3: i'll drive. Oh no, we'll drive you and you put
16:14
Speaker 3: me in handcuffs. I said, I said, Monday arrest. I
16:17
Speaker 3: ain't talked to my attorney, and they said, oh, no, no,
16:19
Speaker 3: you're not an arrest. But she had already arrested me,
16:22
Speaker 3: So that is an arrest without probable calls. So then
16:24
Speaker 3: you violated my Fourth Amendment because you arrest me in
16:26
Speaker 3: my house without probable cause or warrant. And then I
16:29
Speaker 3: went down to the police station and it was crazy
16:32
Speaker 3: because my manager told me, he's like, house, don't say nothing.
16:36
Speaker 3: I was like, his name Anthony. I was like Antheony.
16:38
Speaker 3: I didn't do nothing. Why would I, you know, I
16:40
Speaker 3: said people, And I was like, black people shouldn't be
16:42
Speaker 3: afraid of the law. You know, I'm paying taxes, a
16:45
Speaker 3: shitload of taxes at this time. So I felt like, look,
16:48
Speaker 3: these people are hired for public safety reassurance. And I
16:52
Speaker 3: was confident, like and even speaking to the detective. And
16:56
Speaker 3: so that night my manager said, your house, don't speak
16:58
Speaker 3: to nobody, don't ever say nothing. And you hear it
17:00
Speaker 3: all the time. I'll ever talk to the police. But
17:01
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm not afraid of police. I'm not afraid
17:04
Speaker 3: of the circumstance, ar the situation. So I spoke and
17:07
Speaker 3: I got arrested that night. Damn. So I'll say that
17:09
Speaker 3: right now in your podet. I don't care how innocent
17:11
Speaker 3: you are. And even after speaking to lawyers, more innocent
17:14
Speaker 3: people go to prison because of speaking. Whatever you can
17:19
Speaker 3: they will use against your court. You can say I
17:20
Speaker 3: love God and they gonna say you obsessed with God
17:23
Speaker 3: and God made you do some crazy stuff. Prosecutor job
17:26
Speaker 3: is to prosecute.
17:27
Speaker 4: Yep, God made you go push that old lady. Also
17:29
Speaker 4: cliff in a wheelchair and throwing crutches down after you
17:32
Speaker 4: know what I mean. So yeah, and that's something I
17:34
Speaker 4: talk about in the podcast a lot is that if
17:36
Speaker 4: you do get picked up under these type of circumstances,
17:38
Speaker 4: don't say nothing. They say your name, and I want
17:40
Speaker 4: a lawyer.
17:40
Speaker 3: I want a lawyer.
17:42
Speaker 4: So you end up going to trial.
17:44
Speaker 3: Here you go see one of my documents and I'll
17:47
Speaker 3: even let you just read the first sentence. And that's
17:49
Speaker 3: the email that my trial attorney sent to my family
17:52
Speaker 3: immediately following my trial. And if you could just read
17:54
Speaker 3: the first sentence out loud from the email.
17:57
Speaker 4: Okay, so this is privilege and confidentially from your attorney. Know,
18:02
Speaker 4: leave his name out of it unless you tell me differently.
18:05
Speaker 4: And the email says, this was the most horribly biased
18:09
Speaker 4: corrupt trial you can ever imagine.
18:11
Speaker 3: I mean, you can just stop there. Yeah, that in itself,
18:15
Speaker 3: I think speaks volume for the tone of my conviction.
18:19
Speaker 4: It sounds like it was. It was a pretty big mess.
18:23
Speaker 4: I mean, but what was your experience of that situation.
18:26
Speaker 4: I mean, here you are, three and a half years
18:28
Speaker 4: have gone by, presumably you've gone on with your career,
18:31
Speaker 4: hoping to put this in the rearview mirror, and then
18:34
Speaker 4: the day comes and you go to trial, and then
18:37
Speaker 4: what's the paint that picture?
18:39
Speaker 3: Well, up until, like I said, at the time, I
18:41
Speaker 3: was promoting my movie and I had like a lot
18:43
Speaker 3: of friends and you know, relationships with you know, so
18:46
Speaker 3: many people, and everybody was like, well, house, why do
18:48
Speaker 3: you say something. I honestly felt like the truth would prevail,
18:52
Speaker 3: And so I was never like even family and friends
18:55
Speaker 3: that were close to me, and it was like everybody,
18:57
Speaker 3: even my father in my rick, was like how you're
18:59
Speaker 3: really calm, are you know? Everybody's was wondering was I
19:02
Speaker 3: taking it too light? And I was like, no, you
19:05
Speaker 3: can't make me. And this was always Jason has always
19:07
Speaker 3: been my mentality. You can't make me guilty of something
19:09
Speaker 3: I didn't do. And so on my mind going to trials,
19:12
Speaker 3: think there's no way twelve logical people, with all the
19:16
Speaker 3: evidence and documentation will find me guilty. But then now
19:20
Speaker 3: if you take away all of the evidence, all of
19:23
Speaker 3: the character evidence, all of the character witnesses, you take
19:26
Speaker 3: away everything, clean the table off. Now it's an emotional case.
19:29
Speaker 3: So now you have this young child in the midst
19:32
Speaker 3: of you know, the Bill Cosby situation, and why all
19:36
Speaker 3: this situation where you have these public figures taking advantage
19:39
Speaker 3: of women, and this is like the almost the pinnacle,
19:42
Speaker 3: and you know, you know, emotionally, societally, we were feeling
19:47
Speaker 3: a lot of compassion and simpathy towards any woman who
19:50
Speaker 3: made this type of outcry, regardless of it was true
19:53
Speaker 3: or not. It was just the tone of our nation
19:55
Speaker 3: almost at that time. And so you go into a
19:58
Speaker 3: courtnor where you take away every single thing, every piece
20:02
Speaker 3: of paper, evidence, witness that can prove your innocence and
20:05
Speaker 3: now you have an emotional.
20:06
Speaker 4: Case, and why was this stuff not allowed into evidence?
20:11
Speaker 3: The judge and the prosecutor suppressed And I have the
20:16
Speaker 3: suppressions letter here where they intentionally put it on record
20:20
Speaker 3: to remove anything remotely that would do anything that would
20:24
Speaker 3: almost dampen her character or show to me motive if
20:29
Speaker 3: you take out the fact that she's allowed to drink, smoke,
20:33
Speaker 3: be around her boyfriend, her boyfriend spend a night even
20:36
Speaker 3: in the record on court the father committed perjury because
20:40
Speaker 3: they asked them, do you allow your daughter to spend
20:42
Speaker 3: a night and have company? So, like I'm saying, when
20:44
Speaker 3: there's evidence to prove your innocence, and it's not allowed intentionally,
20:50
Speaker 3: and you see that one of the motions to suppress it,
20:53
Speaker 3: and it's another it's to motions.
20:55
Speaker 4: I'm sitting here looking at this document from the Superior
20:59
Speaker 4: Court of Gwinnett where they in fact did exactly what
21:03
Speaker 4: you said. But this allowed any testimony says, including but
21:07
Speaker 4: not limited the references of alcohol and drug use by
21:10
Speaker 4: her skipping school, allegations of domestic violence between her and
21:14
Speaker 4: I guess.
21:14
Speaker 3: Is that her dad, ye who had a history of
21:17
Speaker 3: abuse against her mom and they even had used HERKI
21:20
Speaker 3: studio interrogation video in mine. Mysteriously, the this didn't work,
21:25
Speaker 3: so the jury never seen my.
21:27
Speaker 4: Side of that night of your interrogation.
21:29
Speaker 3: Vient never seen it.
21:30
Speaker 4: Yeah, it looks like it was almost a faded complete
21:33
Speaker 4: I hate to say it. You went through this trial,
21:35
Speaker 4: you knew that they had disallowed a lot of the
21:38
Speaker 4: evidence that would have almost certainly led to your aquitto.
21:41
Speaker 4: You still thought you were going to be acquitted, even
21:43
Speaker 4: though you hadn't been allowed to present evidence that was
21:46
Speaker 4: so favorable to your defense.
21:47
Speaker 3: Because there were still things she said on stand that
21:50
Speaker 3: contradicted the truth. And then I actually took the stand
21:53
Speaker 3: and everything I said was genuine, It was the truth.
21:57
Speaker 3: I recorrected a lot of things that she said, but
22:00
Speaker 3: they didn't know the truth. So it still became an
22:02
Speaker 3: emotional thing.
22:04
Speaker 4: So you were you were done. It was at that point.
22:07
Speaker 4: Really all you're doing is saying I didn't do it,
22:09
Speaker 4: that's it, and the jury is sitting there going, well, oh,
22:12
Speaker 4: I mean you know.
22:13
Speaker 3: And another thing that happened was the prosecutor, in his
22:17
Speaker 3: old mistakements, say look he has all this, he has
22:19
Speaker 3: all he's a great man. He has a non profit.
22:21
Speaker 3: He's doing this stuff for HBCU. He has this amazing career.
22:24
Speaker 3: Everyone thinks he's perfect. And he kept like attacking my character.
22:28
Speaker 3: At one point, he was even referencing my character on
22:30
Speaker 3: Single Ladies, like what did he do for a living?
22:32
Speaker 3: What kind of job did Terrence have on Single Ladies?
22:35
Speaker 3: I'm like, what do Single Ladies have to do with
22:37
Speaker 3: this case?
22:38
Speaker 4: So he's attacking your fictitious character.
22:39
Speaker 3: He attacked anything fictationous that he can attack, he attacked.
22:43
Speaker 3: He's like, what does Terrence Frank do for a living?
22:45
Speaker 3: I was like, man, do you think Robert Donnie Junior
22:47
Speaker 3: leaves Iron Man and think he can fly? It's a profession.
22:50
Speaker 3: Nobody leaves set and think they're that person. I couldn't
22:53
Speaker 3: say nothing, you know, anything rebuttally close to anything other
22:56
Speaker 3: than what they want you to say. And they tell
22:59
Speaker 3: you they asked you a question. Is like that sets
23:00
Speaker 3: you up to fail. I mean that's the only thing
23:03
Speaker 3: they had. That's the only thing they referenced to, like
23:05
Speaker 3: what I do on Single Ladies and some other character
23:08
Speaker 3: what did he do for a living? Like the two
23:10
Speaker 3: characters that were like somewhat urban two or three. It's like, oh,
23:13
Speaker 3: he did music videos and print jab. He just was
23:16
Speaker 3: just trying to present it to the jury like I
23:18
Speaker 3: thought I was above the law because I was successful,
23:21
Speaker 3: or because I was you know, an entertainer or an actor.
23:25
Speaker 3: And his closing statements, because you know, it goes to
23:28
Speaker 3: prosecutor defense, then prosecutor. When he said he wants y'all
23:32
Speaker 3: to believe that he's such a disciplinarian that you know,
23:36
Speaker 3: the father just so lenient that she can go over
23:38
Speaker 3: there and just do whatever, and she wants that she
23:41
Speaker 3: can't do to his house, that she would make up accusations. Well,
23:45
Speaker 3: he has all this going on, he said, but the
23:47
Speaker 3: one thing that simply fails logic, where's the proof saying
23:54
Speaker 3: that if what proof do you have that she can
23:56
Speaker 3: do all these things at her father house versus your house?
23:59
Speaker 4: Right, So what he was referencing was the evidence that
24:01
Speaker 4: he knew wouldn't be allowed in and he was actually
24:03
Speaker 4: turning that into a negative. I mean the record, Yeah,
24:06
Speaker 4: that's pretty And.
24:08
Speaker 3: When he said that, I was like, and I still
24:10
Speaker 3: had hope, because again, when you're innocent, it just never
24:14
Speaker 3: resonated me going to prison. I had done everything at
24:15
Speaker 3: that point in my life to not go to prison.
24:18
Speaker 3: I had did everything I can degrees, educations, speaking out organizations,
24:22
Speaker 3: having my own nonprofit where you know, even a young
24:25
Speaker 3: lady who had survived cancer and all that stuff at Montgomery, Alabama,
24:29
Speaker 3: who I took to the prom She came down to testify.
24:32
Speaker 3: Like I had a courtroom for the people and witnesses.
24:35
Speaker 3: All of their testimony was limited to how long do
24:38
Speaker 3: you know him, do you trust them? Tell the truth?
24:40
Speaker 3: And does he have good community standings? That was it.
24:43
Speaker 3: That was all they were allowed to say. They weren't
24:44
Speaker 3: able to say nothing. Far as my character interaction with
24:47
Speaker 3: the kids, I never I'm talking about when not saying,
24:50
Speaker 3: absolutely never resonated. I guess I was naive. I was
24:54
Speaker 3: in time promoting my movie. My kids were sitting in
24:56
Speaker 3: a rental car.
24:57
Speaker 4: Wait wait wait, the kids are sitting in rental car.
24:59
Speaker 4: Where outside the courthouse?
25:00
Speaker 2: Yeah?
25:01
Speaker 3: My son mom was in the car with them. Okay, yeah,
25:04
Speaker 3: so they were sitting in the rental car and my
25:05
Speaker 3: son mom was right next to her. They were like
25:07
Speaker 3: playing on their iPads, you know, watching them play in
25:09
Speaker 3: the car waiting for me. They got the verdict, so
25:12
Speaker 3: I'm thinking I'm about to walk in, not guilty, Go celebrate.
25:15
Speaker 3: It's been three and a half years. I think I'm
25:17
Speaker 3: just walking and walk back out. I had just brought
25:20
Speaker 3: like lately in their season passes. My kids were sitting
25:22
Speaker 3: in the car with swim trunks on, and I was like, hey,
25:25
Speaker 3: I'll be right back. Let me go in here and
25:26
Speaker 3: get this handled, this situation. I never came back out
25:30
Speaker 3: for two years.
25:40
Speaker 4: So you went to prison and was it a medium
25:44
Speaker 4: maximum security prison?
25:46
Speaker 3: Medium security prison?
25:47
Speaker 4: And it was it as bad as it sounds as.
25:51
Speaker 3: It was bad. I went to a private prison and
25:54
Speaker 3: down in the South, when you go to certain prison,
25:56
Speaker 3: they say you caught sweet because it's not as volatile,
25:59
Speaker 3: it's not as violent, but there was just as much violence.
26:02
Speaker 3: There was just as much drug. Man, there's more drug
26:05
Speaker 3: per quantity in prison than it is on the street.
26:09
Speaker 3: Like there was no drug that you couldn't get access to,
26:11
Speaker 3: whether it's weed, meth, cocaine, heroin, spice. So you know
26:16
Speaker 3: that's the frustrating part. As somebody who pays taxes and
26:19
Speaker 3: who cares, I'm looking at the process, like, wait, you
26:22
Speaker 3: sending all these people to prison and you're basically babysitting
26:24
Speaker 3: grown me in because you're getting food, you getting shelter,
26:27
Speaker 3: they get you closed soap, you know, certain necessities, but
26:30
Speaker 3: at the same time, there is nothing rehabilitative about the process.
26:34
Speaker 3: They make you take some generic classes that if you
26:36
Speaker 3: want to take, you can take. But I'm looking like,
26:38
Speaker 3: how are you trying to help these individuals? And so
26:41
Speaker 3: now it makes sense that probation. You hear meet meals
26:43
Speaker 3: talk about probation, because if there's no rehabilitation, then there's
26:47
Speaker 3: going to be a need for probation because they gonna
26:49
Speaker 3: lock your ass back up. If you're trying to prepare
26:52
Speaker 3: somebody properly, you don't worry about it. It's like your kids.
26:55
Speaker 3: You don't say, you know what, I'm gonna give my
26:57
Speaker 3: kids a full yet probationary period for them to go
26:59
Speaker 3: to school to college. Oh, you prepared them up until
27:01
Speaker 3: eighteen to go out and be productive. And that's not
27:04
Speaker 3: what the penal system likes. So you get the private
27:06
Speaker 3: system where you get thirty six to thirty eight thousand
27:08
Speaker 3: per inmate, twenty eight hundred inmates.
27:10
Speaker 4: We don't have to get a calculator. Calculator, but whatever
27:13
Speaker 4: it is, it's a big number.
27:14
Speaker 3: Thirty eight thousand times twenty eight hundred.
27:16
Speaker 4: What do we got I want you to Okay, you're
27:19
Speaker 4: gonna let me do the honors. Here there's another first
27:22
Speaker 4: unwrongful conviction. Yeah, you never use a calculator. Thirty eight
27:25
Speaker 4: thousand times twenty eight hundred equals So that's one hundred
27:32
Speaker 4: and six million, four hundred thousand dollars.
27:34
Speaker 3: That's a lot of money.
27:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a crazy amount of money.
27:37
Speaker 3: I mean, but anyway, it's a third amount of money,
27:40
Speaker 3: so you don't utilitate.
27:42
Speaker 4: Listen, The very idea that there's a profit modeve in
27:45
Speaker 4: locking people up is insane, right, you know there's that
27:49
Speaker 4: There's that horrible movie Kids for Cash, which documented these
27:53
Speaker 4: cases in two thousand and five, I think it was
27:56
Speaker 4: or seven, where these judges in Pennsylvania were two judges
28:00
Speaker 4: were locking kids up for talking back to the teacher,
28:03
Speaker 4: for jaywalking, for posting one girl made a MySpace page
28:08
Speaker 4: which she said was a joke, just making fun of
28:09
Speaker 4: her teacher, not threatening three months in jail. They were
28:12
Speaker 4: being paid by the private prisons to send kids to jail,
28:15
Speaker 4: little thirteen year old fourteen year olds, to like a
28:18
Speaker 4: real prison too. This was no I mean, they were
28:21
Speaker 4: locking kids up to. I mean, the one kid that
28:23
Speaker 4: haunts me. His name was Charlie. He a lot of
28:25
Speaker 4: them do. But you know, he was since the six
28:27
Speaker 4: months for possession of stolen property. He had a scooter
28:30
Speaker 4: that his parents had given him for a present that
28:31
Speaker 4: they didn't know was stolen, and some other kid had
28:34
Speaker 4: you know, they had bought it in a flea market,
28:36
Speaker 4: whatever the hell they did, right, he had no idea.
28:39
Speaker 4: They had no idea, and they locked him up for
28:41
Speaker 4: six months. And then they keep extending it when you're
28:43
Speaker 4: in there, because then the kid ends up smoking the
28:45
Speaker 4: joint in there because he, like you said.
28:46
Speaker 3: That's what they do. And if you don't get in
28:47
Speaker 3: trouble in prison, they call him manipulating the system.
28:50
Speaker 4: Now, and this poor kid was in for most of
28:53
Speaker 4: his childhood. They managed to extend it and extend to
28:55
Speaker 4: keep penalizing him for different things. And I think he
28:57
Speaker 4: was only out for a year before his eighteenth birthday.
29:00
Speaker 4: I locked up him he was thirteen, and you know,
29:02
Speaker 4: it's just it's so tragic. It's just so damn tragic.
29:05
Speaker 4: But and he did touch on something else I want
29:07
Speaker 4: to talk about, which is incredible too, because I've been
29:10
Speaker 4: working for over two decades. I've been on the board
29:12
Speaker 4: of the Drug Policy Alliance, which is working to you know,
29:15
Speaker 4: in the drug war, right, I call it the war
29:17
Speaker 4: against the war on drugs, right, and bring some sanity
29:20
Speaker 4: back to that all those crazy policies that we have
29:22
Speaker 4: in this country. And I've gotten to know Tony Papa
29:26
Speaker 4: very well works there now. And Tony was sentenced to
29:29
Speaker 4: fifteen the life for first defense cocaine charge, non violent.
29:33
Speaker 4: He was eventually granted clemency by the governor after twelve years.
29:37
Speaker 4: He painted his way out of prison and then he
29:39
Speaker 4: did a self portrait that ended up in the Whitney.
29:41
Speaker 4: The guy's incredible anyway, so Tony Papa and he says
29:44
Speaker 4: he now does communications work for the Drug Policy Lines.
29:47
Speaker 4: And as he says, if you can't control the flow
29:49
Speaker 4: of drugs in a maximum security prison, how can you
29:52
Speaker 4: possibly hope to control it in the streets. And it
29:54
Speaker 4: makes perfect sense. But anyway, we don't want to make.
29:57
Speaker 3: Speaking about the war on drugs. I believe it was
29:59
Speaker 3: nineteen sevent and I don't call me, but it was
30:01
Speaker 3: somewhere in that time frame that I read you know
30:03
Speaker 3: what the maximum amount you can get in the United
30:05
Speaker 3: States before the initial war on drugs was set for
30:07
Speaker 3: any amount of drugs.
30:09
Speaker 4: No, tell me, I don't even know a year. Wow.
30:12
Speaker 3: And then eighty two, I believe Reagan initiated the war
30:15
Speaker 3: on drugs, and.
30:15
Speaker 4: Eighty five all major Nixon started it. When Nick Nixon started, Yeah,
30:20
Speaker 4: every president has taken a table.
30:22
Speaker 3: But eighty five is when the influx started bombarding inner
30:26
Speaker 3: cities by Detroit, the Chicago's crack epidemic took over.
30:30
Speaker 4: No, and Nixon's you know, his one of his chief
30:32
Speaker 4: aides hauled them and I forgot whether he was the
30:34
Speaker 4: chief of staff or whatever. He has admitted later years
30:36
Speaker 4: that Nixon didn't want to war on drugs. He wanted
30:38
Speaker 4: to war on black people and hippies, but he couldn't
30:40
Speaker 4: call it that. And at the time there was only
30:42
Speaker 4: two percent of American public identified drugs as a problem exactly.
30:46
Speaker 4: So he had to create a false crisis, which is
30:48
Speaker 4: what he did, and he declared this war on drugs.
30:51
Speaker 4: And even then, the police departments didn't want to arrest
30:53
Speaker 4: people from drugs, so they created this new incentive where
30:56
Speaker 4: they would give the police departments all extraitaries even if
31:00
Speaker 4: they met quota quota of drug arrests because they didn't
31:03
Speaker 4: want to do it. You know, that's what's crazy. Back then,
31:07
Speaker 4: I think. You know, you're looking at a situation where
31:09
Speaker 4: police officers were going into the to the law, like
31:12
Speaker 4: I think a vast majority of them do, saying I
31:15
Speaker 4: want to protect people. I want to I grew up
31:18
Speaker 4: thinking maybe I want to be a police officer. You
31:20
Speaker 4: know what I mean. You see the uniform, you respect it. Right.
31:23
Speaker 4: It's somehow or other got so twisted where and it's
31:26
Speaker 4: the government's fall by providing reverse incentives for persecuting regular people.
31:31
Speaker 4: Now you have these home invasion rays where they're kicking
31:34
Speaker 4: in the door and you know, and people are getting
31:37
Speaker 4: shot and wounded because they're looking for some drugs and
31:40
Speaker 4: sometimes they go to the wrong house. I mean, it
31:42
Speaker 4: was that horrible case down south. It might even be
31:43
Speaker 4: in Georgia where they threw in the flash bang grenade
31:45
Speaker 4: and it landed in the baby's crib and the baby's
31:48
Speaker 4: now had thirty five operations and everything. I mean, it's madness, right,
31:52
Speaker 4: It's just looking for drugs which are going to be
31:55
Speaker 4: legal eventually. I mean, now, you know weed is on
31:57
Speaker 4: the way, but we still have people serving crazy amounts
31:59
Speaker 4: of time in prison.
32:00
Speaker 3: We noticed just must that have administered drugs are just
32:03
Speaker 3: as harmful, of not more harmful than the none legalized drugs.
32:07
Speaker 3: But they give it to your quantity because they control
32:09
Speaker 3: the quantity. Because they control them output, they can control
32:11
Speaker 3: the money.
32:12
Speaker 4: It's all money, man, Yeah, it's all money. I mean,
32:14
Speaker 4: that's money. But I just posted on my Instagram, which
32:17
Speaker 4: by the way, is at It's Jason Flomp for those
32:18
Speaker 4: of you who don't follow me. But I posted on
32:20
Speaker 4: my Instagram today, you know, because of this Manifhord thing.
32:23
Speaker 4: I mean, he got sentenced to yeah, Syria, what his
32:24
Speaker 4: white privilege, Paul Manifor forty seven months for you know,
32:29
Speaker 4: so many crimes you can't even count them over such
32:31
Speaker 4: an extended period of time. And then my friend Bernard
32:33
Speaker 4: Noble was sence to thirteen years and four months for
32:36
Speaker 4: possession of two joints. Possession. What the hell? I mean,
32:40
Speaker 4: my head's exploding. But and he was a truck driver
32:43
Speaker 4: forty seven years old, seven kids, you know, hit two
32:45
Speaker 4: prior arrests for simple possession twenty something years earlier. He
32:49
Speaker 4: did clean all this time. Let's get to the to
32:52
Speaker 4: the reversal, because the or the ultimate emotion for neutron freedom. Yeah,
32:58
Speaker 4: so how did you actually managed to get yourself out
33:01
Speaker 4: of this miserable predicament? That's what I want to know.
33:04
Speaker 3: I had a motion for a new trial. I was cohersed,
33:08
Speaker 3: pretty much blackmail into taking what they call it alphrod plea.
33:12
Speaker 3: I have the documents if you see right here. I
33:13
Speaker 3: have on record multiple times where they try to offer
33:17
Speaker 3: me these please and I'm like, I'm not taking the
33:19
Speaker 3: plea for somebody to do. I'm not taking the plea.
33:21
Speaker 3: I probably had on record four different times where they say,
33:24
Speaker 3: if you don't take this plea, it's not coming back
33:26
Speaker 3: on the record. So how does this plea keep reappearing
33:29
Speaker 3: if someone declines a plea? Where do you see so
33:32
Speaker 3: many times on record where it resurfaces? And so at
33:35
Speaker 3: the beginning of my most of a new trial they
33:36
Speaker 3: asked me to take a plea. My trial lawyer got
33:39
Speaker 3: up there and talk about the discrepancies and the things
33:41
Speaker 3: that violated my due process. And so when the most
33:44
Speaker 3: for newtrial is granted, it's based off of something that
33:48
Speaker 3: violated your due process. Whether it's an effective sense of counsole,
33:51
Speaker 3: whether it's prosecutorial, whether it's judicial for some legal reason
33:54
Speaker 3: that violated your due process, which is your fourteenth Amendment,
33:58
Speaker 3: which is very important for people to understand. And you
34:00
Speaker 3: got to understand, you know. And I'm gonna say this
34:02
Speaker 3: and be real quick. Martin Luther King's death or his fight,
34:05
Speaker 3: the advocacy for civil rights is superseded just the right
34:08
Speaker 3: to vote. It's for people, individuals to understand. As a citizen,
34:12
Speaker 3: you are given these rights to be an American citizen
34:16
Speaker 3: to where you don't have to fight for your rights
34:18
Speaker 3: if you understand what your rights are. See, we're fighting
34:21
Speaker 3: for something that's allocate, that's for us. When you're born
34:24
Speaker 3: an American citizen, you're giving these rights. So it's kind
34:26
Speaker 3: of like you know, you're going home and fighting for
34:28
Speaker 3: your bed, and it's already your bed. That's your bid.
34:30
Speaker 3: You just have to know it's your bed. So you know,
34:32
Speaker 3: I say this, especially African Americans, know your rights, know
34:35
Speaker 3: your amendments. I didn't personally care about minds before prison.
34:38
Speaker 3: When I went back and I learned my first my
34:39
Speaker 3: fourth how important. The fourth was, the fifth against self incrimination,
34:43
Speaker 3: the sixth Amendment for a legal representation, the seventh, eighth
34:46
Speaker 3: against cruel and harsh punishment for a team due process.
34:49
Speaker 3: So this was my most for a new trial was
34:51
Speaker 3: open on the grounds that I didn't get a fair trial,
34:55
Speaker 3: and at some point doing that process, I was basically
34:59
Speaker 3: pressured either do this or sit in prison two more years.
35:03
Speaker 3: And at that point, of how he been there a
35:04
Speaker 3: year and a half. So what they offered me was
35:08
Speaker 3: my lawyer told me at the time that I would
35:10
Speaker 3: get time served this thing called first offenders, and I
35:14
Speaker 3: would get out and my record to be expunged. And
35:18
Speaker 3: you know, I didn't even want to take it, and
35:20
Speaker 3: I had to call like a removal of court and
35:22
Speaker 3: speed to my mom and my son's mom. They were
35:24
Speaker 3: like all crying, like please just get out your kids,
35:26
Speaker 3: miss you. I'm like, mom, I'm not taking a plea
35:28
Speaker 3: for somebody to do. And it was like it's an
35:30
Speaker 3: alpha plea which allows you to maintain your innocence, but
35:33
Speaker 3: it says you didn't want to go to court. I
35:35
Speaker 3: never mind, won't go on to trial. I know I
35:37
Speaker 3: have enough proof to prove my ennocnce. That was never
35:39
Speaker 3: a case for me. It was never an issue by
35:41
Speaker 3: me not going to trial.
35:42
Speaker 4: So you ultimately accepted the outf for play.
35:45
Speaker 3: Yes, and they told me how to be released. Then
35:47
Speaker 3: I wasn't released. Then I went back to prison for
35:49
Speaker 3: like eight more months.
35:51
Speaker 4: I've heard that story before too.
35:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, they said. And then my lawyer was like, oh yeah,
35:55
Speaker 3: as soon as you get there, they're gonna process you
35:56
Speaker 3: out and I might take up to thirty days. Trial
36:00
Speaker 3: was November seventeenth. He said, you may be home before Thanksgiving,
36:04
Speaker 3: no later than Christmas. I didn't get out till July.
36:09
Speaker 3: So I said another eight months, and that was July
36:12
Speaker 3: of twenty eighteen.
36:14
Speaker 4: So you've been home now for nine months. Yep. It
36:17
Speaker 4: seems like you hit the ground running, though I mean
36:19
Speaker 4: I didn't.
36:20
Speaker 3: I thought I did too until I realized. Come in here,
36:22
Speaker 3: help me realize. I didn't like my probation. I still
36:26
Speaker 3: have a few years left for probation in Atlanta, and
36:29
Speaker 3: that's what I'm fighting for right now, my complete exoneration
36:33
Speaker 3: and expungement of my record. But I didn't.
36:38
Speaker 4: I remember.
36:39
Speaker 3: I woke up probably raised around about Christmas. I woke
36:42
Speaker 3: up just crying, man, just tears, because the psychological effect
36:46
Speaker 3: that this stuff has on you, it's just mind bog
36:49
Speaker 3: You wake up at one point and it blew my mind.
36:53
Speaker 3: At one point I thought about going back, and nobody
36:58
Speaker 3: in my family, this is my first time. Even at
37:00
Speaker 3: one point I thought about going back back to prison.
37:04
Speaker 3: That's the psychological effect that has on you. It's kind
37:07
Speaker 3: of like, I don't even know if you watch like
37:09
Speaker 3: Game of Thrones, like.
37:10
Speaker 4: A couple of seasons theon.
37:11
Speaker 3: Lovejoy where old Boy had broke them to a dog
37:16
Speaker 3: and even if you open they said, once you break
37:18
Speaker 3: a dog, you can open the cage and the dog
37:20
Speaker 3: won't leave out. And that's what prison do, and that's
37:23
Speaker 3: why they have these probationary priscause Psychologically, the impact that
37:26
Speaker 3: it has on you, it breaks you. And that's the
37:29
Speaker 3: whole purpose of it is to break you. And that's
37:31
Speaker 3: why I have my book Never Broken, because despite this tragic, unfortunate, mundane, crazy,
37:39
Speaker 3: malicious to me situation, I feel like there's people that's
37:43
Speaker 3: experienced worse than I have. I know that there are,
37:47
Speaker 3: and I feel like, you know, I have an obligation
37:49
Speaker 3: now with my situation and circumstances, to be a voice
37:52
Speaker 3: for a prison reform for the people that's maliciously prosecuted,
37:55
Speaker 3: falsely prosecuted, and they understand that, you know, just as
38:00
Speaker 3: many innocent people go to prison as guilty people get off.
38:05
Speaker 3: But it's not a justification. What we have to do
38:06
Speaker 3: is pay more attention to what you know, our judicial
38:10
Speaker 3: system and the people we elect. So I encourage people
38:13
Speaker 3: to be aware of who your judges are, who your
38:16
Speaker 3: all your state representatives are, who all your local representatives are,
38:19
Speaker 3: and that's where the power of voting and being aware
38:23
Speaker 3: of what's going on plays its part. We can get
38:25
Speaker 3: out here in Kumbaya and you know, Raley all we want,
38:28
Speaker 3: but we need to put people in office and positions
38:31
Speaker 3: that care about the people.
38:44
Speaker 4: You know, one of the things we can do in
38:46
Speaker 4: this show. If you're listening, whether you live in Georgia
38:50
Speaker 4: or Alaska, it doesn't really matter. Everybody at some point
38:53
Speaker 4: gets a jury duty notice and when you serve on
38:56
Speaker 4: a jury, which I encourage people to do, especially people
38:59
Speaker 4: that are listening to show, who are woke right because
39:01
Speaker 4: they're listening to this show. So you know, if you
39:05
Speaker 4: do get all for jury duty, it's super annoying, Like
39:08
Speaker 4: nobody wants to go. You know, you got to miss
39:11
Speaker 4: out on work and things and whatever. Everybody's busy, but
39:14
Speaker 4: go because go and go, then stay woke, because when
39:19
Speaker 4: you're there, recognize that there's stuff going on that you
39:22
Speaker 4: don't know and you can't see.
39:24
Speaker 3: We have to become more educated, just in general about
39:27
Speaker 3: the judicial process. The jury concept. The way it was
39:29
Speaker 3: founded was, you know, back I believe in the early
39:32
Speaker 3: thirteen hundred or something like that, fourteen hundred. It was early,
39:35
Speaker 3: and they were just sentencing gods just like guilty, guilty,
39:38
Speaker 3: And it got one guy said, wait a minute, you
39:40
Speaker 3: guys don't even know me, like, give me a chance
39:42
Speaker 3: to show you my innocent. Let my peers judge who
39:45
Speaker 3: I am. And so then that's how the jury situation
39:48
Speaker 3: came about. So it's important for you to understand that
39:50
Speaker 3: the whole purpose of the jury duty and the jury
39:53
Speaker 3: selection is for you to recognize this individual as you're
39:56
Speaker 3: a peer. Is it somebody you want in your community,
39:58
Speaker 3: It's somebody you trust. The whole purpose the judicial system
40:00
Speaker 3: is for public reassurance. To make us feel safe, is
40:03
Speaker 3: to know that our government is working adamantly to secure
40:06
Speaker 3: our safety, whether it's offshores, are on shores of you know,
40:10
Speaker 3: of American soil. So it's very important for people to understand,
40:12
Speaker 3: like you said, how I know it's boring. I know
40:14
Speaker 3: you don't want to be there. You can't just go
40:16
Speaker 3: in there and say, well, I don't want to be
40:18
Speaker 3: here there. I gotta go to work tomorrow because this
40:20
Speaker 3: is somebody's life.
40:21
Speaker 4: And then there's that you know, famous quote that it's
40:24
Speaker 4: better that one hundred guilty men should go free than
40:27
Speaker 4: that one incent should suffer. I'm pretty sure that was
40:30
Speaker 4: Benjamin Franklin or the legendary Supreme Court justice Learning Hand
40:35
Speaker 4: who said that our justice system is haunted by the
40:38
Speaker 4: ghost of the innocent man convicted. You know that quote
40:41
Speaker 4: gives me chills, and yet it happens all day, every
40:45
Speaker 4: day and twice on Sunday. And you know, there's that
40:48
Speaker 4: saying that everyone you meet is fighting a battle you
40:52
Speaker 4: know nothing about, so be kind, right, And I know
40:56
Speaker 4: so many of the different people that I interviewed on
40:59
Speaker 4: this show been through these horrendous situations. I mean, some
41:03
Speaker 4: of them in prison for thirty forty years for things
41:05
Speaker 4: they didn't do. And they all have different ways of
41:08
Speaker 4: explaining how they found this extra gear, this this strength,
41:15
Speaker 4: this grace I call it right where they're able to
41:19
Speaker 4: get up every day and project a positive influence onto
41:23
Speaker 4: the world. And you certainly seem like that guy as well.
41:28
Speaker 4: You know, and I know I've spoken to you about
41:31
Speaker 4: this before, so I wanted to ask you and then
41:33
Speaker 4: I'll have one more question after this, But are you bitter?
41:38
Speaker 3: No, sir.
41:40
Speaker 4: And it's interesting because so many people that I talked
41:43
Speaker 4: to civilians about this issue all the time. People have
41:45
Speaker 4: listened to the show. Other people they say, but I
41:47
Speaker 4: don't understand how how can anybody who's been through what.
41:51
Speaker 3: Because that's not the answer. Frustration, hate, anger is not
41:55
Speaker 3: the answer. I love to judge. I love my stepdaughter,
41:58
Speaker 3: I love her father. I love it prosecute. I even
42:01
Speaker 3: love the jury. If I had to do one thing,
42:03
Speaker 3: I would want to sit down like this and just
42:05
Speaker 3: ask them why. And I would want them to just
42:07
Speaker 3: hang out. Just spend one day with me, Spend an
42:09
Speaker 3: hour with me, watch me interact with my kids. Watch
42:12
Speaker 3: me go to a facility or a place and you know,
42:16
Speaker 3: car wash and see a young lady with her daughters.
42:19
Speaker 3: And watch how I tell my sons to go over
42:20
Speaker 3: there and vacuum that car, or go pump that lady's gas,
42:24
Speaker 3: or go grab that lady's groceries. Watch how I'm in
42:27
Speaker 3: a restaurant, I see lady with kids, I pay for
42:29
Speaker 3: her food. You know, it's so many things that I
42:32
Speaker 3: do that the people who know me immediately will go, Man,
42:36
Speaker 3: you're different.
42:36
Speaker 4: It's remarkable, and there's so much to be learned for
42:39
Speaker 4: people who are going through their day to day struggles
42:42
Speaker 4: and may find, you know, aggravations in daily life.
42:46
Speaker 3: But once everything is taken from you, especially abruptly, and
42:50
Speaker 3: then you're broken down to the bare minimum. That's why
42:52
Speaker 3: they say some homeless people are the happiest. They have
42:54
Speaker 3: no worries and so just nothing to cut you off.
42:57
Speaker 3: But to answer that question, we say, how to each
42:59
Speaker 3: and every want to rive at this same place because
43:02
Speaker 3: you've been stripped of everything that the pressures of society
43:05
Speaker 3: that man has. So now when you just have to
43:09
Speaker 3: bear you, you just have your connection with God or
43:11
Speaker 3: whatever you believe in. And so the strength and your
43:15
Speaker 3: relationship with a higher call and the higher being is
43:19
Speaker 3: indicated by how you conduct yourself and how you respond.
43:22
Speaker 3: I know that God has all my steps number and
43:25
Speaker 3: whatever they meant for evil, God meant for good. I
43:27
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been here two years ago. I wouldn't even
43:30
Speaker 3: thought about prison reform two years ago. I will probably
43:33
Speaker 3: be probably with my kids on some island or somewhere
43:36
Speaker 3: kicking it. But my point is this, I've always been aware,
43:39
Speaker 3: but this gave me another fight, you know what I
43:41
Speaker 3: because I'm huge on youth advocacy, and now was the
43:44
Speaker 3: hardest part about this allegation against a child. I have
43:46
Speaker 3: a history in proof and I'll show you documents even
43:48
Speaker 3: after we get off air, where I'm speaking to young women,
43:51
Speaker 3: young men empowering them. So that was the hardest part
43:54
Speaker 3: because my degree is an education from Alabama State University.
43:58
Speaker 3: So when you take away my core, which is the
44:00
Speaker 3: love for advocacy for youth and empowering young men and
44:05
Speaker 3: women in low economic environments, that's what hurt. And in
44:08
Speaker 3: fact that they took me from my kids, Like the
44:10
Speaker 3: hardest part was walking away and knowing that my kids
44:13
Speaker 3: were outside.
44:14
Speaker 4: You know, certainly meeting you when I did. You know,
44:17
Speaker 4: like I said, you still seem like that guy who
44:19
Speaker 4: would be more likely to be on stage accepting an
44:21
Speaker 4: award than then you were to end up in prison.
44:25
Speaker 3: And I mean, I guess for me. And in addition,
44:28
Speaker 3: I think one of the hardest and the craziest situation
44:31
Speaker 3: just being in there. Jay was the fact that like
44:33
Speaker 3: I would look up and I will see myself on television.
44:37
Speaker 3: You know, some of the other guys would kind of
44:39
Speaker 3: be looking like you know that that looks just.
44:42
Speaker 4: Like you know.
44:43
Speaker 3: And when they finally figured it out, it was crazy.
44:45
Speaker 4: That's totally surreal. So you're in prison looking at the
44:50
Speaker 4: TV seeing yourself, watching your previous life literally flashing in front.
44:57
Speaker 3: Of your eyes. Initially, when I first I saw myself,
45:00
Speaker 3: Atlanta was on and they watched it because it's Atlanta
45:03
Speaker 3: Bay Show and I'm in Georgia. You know, a lot
45:06
Speaker 3: of guys have been locked up for so long. They
45:07
Speaker 3: couldn't affiliate me with the character. And then most of
45:11
Speaker 3: them are so negative almost that they don't they wouldn't
45:13
Speaker 3: believe that someone they watched no television would be locked
45:16
Speaker 3: up with them. So that was the first thing. And
45:18
Speaker 3: then when I got to the facility, I was at
45:21
Speaker 3: down in coffee with this ring came on and one
45:24
Speaker 3: of the officers walked in was like, hey, gg, building
45:28
Speaker 3: wants you. So I look up and all the dudes
45:29
Speaker 3: in the wind they're like, yo, coach, because they call
45:31
Speaker 3: me coach. They actually called me coach in prison because
45:34
Speaker 3: I used to help a lot of guys with like
45:36
Speaker 3: basketball and boxing, and you know, with that illegal work
45:40
Speaker 3: because I started doing a lot of legal research and
45:42
Speaker 3: stuff like that. So they all started calling me coach,
45:45
Speaker 3: but they was like, yo, coach. And then after that
45:47
Speaker 3: I was so much love man, Like I never had
45:49
Speaker 3: any incidents where gangs or none of that stuff. Man,
45:53
Speaker 3: you know, the top dogs, I was always cool with,
45:56
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So I don't know if
45:57
Speaker 3: it was gonna get around, but shout out to you know,
45:59
Speaker 3: everybody that's right now that's still in cars. You're ready
46:01
Speaker 3: to keep your head up, man, and your time in
46:03
Speaker 3: the sun is coming.
46:04
Speaker 4: Man.
46:04
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's be crazy, yee. I see myself and
46:07
Speaker 3: multiple television shows, my movies was airing, and a lot
46:10
Speaker 3: of them ironically was happy to be almost locked up
46:16
Speaker 3: with somebody that was successful. And it was crazy because
46:18
Speaker 3: I got so much love and support. So it was
46:21
Speaker 3: they were all rooting for me to get out. I
46:23
Speaker 3: never hit my story. You know, a lot of time
46:24
Speaker 3: when you go to prison, they tell you, man, you're
46:26
Speaker 3: going there on some sex storr they gonna do blah
46:28
Speaker 3: blah blahlah blah. But the guys all knew me as
46:30
Speaker 3: a man first, and everyone was frustrated. A lot of
46:35
Speaker 3: inmates was pissed, like, man, man, you got to get out,
46:37
Speaker 3: You got to tell your case, you got to tell
46:39
Speaker 3: your story. I was got so much support and encouragement
46:41
Speaker 3: from the guys in there because they met me and
46:43
Speaker 3: as a man, they can tell that, you know, I
46:45
Speaker 3: was innocent and so and I mean it was just crazy.
46:48
Speaker 4: Man, that's just an outer body, a trippy, crazy experience
46:53
Speaker 4: that I hope nobody else has to go through. But man,
46:55
Speaker 4: what a what a life.
46:57
Speaker 3: Thank you to all the supporter I got, because I
46:59
Speaker 3: know at one point distribution company had hesitation about my
47:02
Speaker 3: roles like in say, for instance, Tupac. But shout out
47:05
Speaker 3: to Benny Boom and Hutting for supporting me and rioting
47:08
Speaker 3: with me by keeping my parts. Shout out to the
47:11
Speaker 3: producers and Donald and all the guys with Atlanta for
47:14
Speaker 3: keeping my parts. Shout out to you know, Tresa Mega
47:18
Speaker 3: mind for continue to push our project secrets. Shout out
47:21
Speaker 3: to you know, Robbie Reid and you know Tracy and
47:24
Speaker 3: all the people that looked out from BT who initially
47:27
Speaker 3: you know, as soon as I got out, we're trying
47:28
Speaker 3: to put me in projects and working to put me
47:31
Speaker 3: in projects to regain you know, my stature in the game.
47:35
Speaker 3: So thank you all for the support and everyone else
47:37
Speaker 3: and got some real big projects on the way.
47:40
Speaker 4: This has been an extraordinary interview. I appreciate you coming
47:44
Speaker 4: in and sharing your story and everything that you're doing
47:48
Speaker 4: to try to make a difference. I know that this
47:51
Speaker 4: will ultimately work itself out. I hope it will, and
47:57
Speaker 4: then everything will get cleared up, and I know the
48:00
Speaker 4: best is yet to come for you. So you know,
48:02
Speaker 4: I wish you well. We have a traditional wrong for conviction,
48:07
Speaker 4: which is that at the end of the show, my
48:09
Speaker 4: favorite part, I think everybody's favorite part, the producers.
48:14
Speaker 3: Audience, is that it's gone to hear people.
48:16
Speaker 4: I get to actually, just like I said, thank you
48:20
Speaker 4: for being here, and then turn over for the last
48:23
Speaker 4: brief closing thoughts for anything you want to say about anything.
48:28
Speaker 3: Oh just love man. Like I said event yesterday earlier
48:34
Speaker 3: this week with Andrew, one of the owners at the
48:37
Speaker 3: Red Rooster, and they were doing something for Outreach, which
48:39
Speaker 3: is an urban program are for low income families. There
48:43
Speaker 3: are so many organizations, there's so many groups, there's so
48:46
Speaker 3: many entities or organizations that's trying to put it together.
48:52
Speaker 3: I just and close when I'm trying to say, we
48:54
Speaker 3: have to find a way to unify this. You know
48:56
Speaker 3: what I mean, because there's a lot of people doing
48:58
Speaker 3: things all across the nation, the world, and I think
49:03
Speaker 3: we just got to find a way to unify it.
49:04
Speaker 3: We need to get past racial bearers, stigmas and stuff
49:08
Speaker 3: like that. We need to try to stop pointing a finger.
49:11
Speaker 3: I said, I don't have no maliciousness toward anybody. I
49:13
Speaker 3: know there's a bigger purpose. I just want people to
49:15
Speaker 3: become aware. Don't just grow. Evolve and growth us is
49:19
Speaker 3: a part of the human condition. That's something that naturally
49:21
Speaker 3: we all do. We grow, it's aging. But evolved is
49:24
Speaker 3: when you as a person, you see stuff, you see
49:26
Speaker 3: the bigger picture, you know what I mean, Like a
49:28
Speaker 3: caterpillar and I feel like a lot of people just
49:30
Speaker 3: caterpillaring alone. But the purpose is to turn into that butterfly.
49:35
Speaker 3: I know it's a slow journey. It feels like the
49:36
Speaker 3: process of being a caterpillar, and it's you know, whether
49:39
Speaker 3: you're trying to get to this goal, this destiny, this journey,
49:42
Speaker 3: just know that that process is a part of your journey.
49:46
Speaker 3: But the evolution into the butterfly is when you grow
49:48
Speaker 3: as a person and you see that the most important
49:50
Speaker 3: thing that we have that God has given us is
49:52
Speaker 3: each other. Everything that was created other than the earth
49:55
Speaker 3: was made by man, whether it's the iPhone, whether it's
49:57
Speaker 3: the car, whether it's bloonney sandwich. So God, it gives
50:00
Speaker 3: us each other to live abundantly happy with one another,
50:05
Speaker 3: but we take it for granted, you know, be more
50:08
Speaker 3: collectively aware of one another and just try to love.
50:10
Speaker 3: When people say that shit and they be like, oh, yeah,
50:12
Speaker 3: I love each other sounds great, but that's what it's about, man,
50:15
Speaker 3: So I love you. I appreciate you having me. It
50:18
Speaker 3: feels good to kind of get this initially off my
50:20
Speaker 3: chest because I've been holding it out for over two
50:23
Speaker 3: and a half going on three years, if not actually
50:25
Speaker 3: longer than that, because it took three and a half
50:27
Speaker 3: years to go to trial. So like this is my
50:30
Speaker 3: first time speaking out publicly. I'm grateful that we had
50:34
Speaker 3: the opportunity to meet, you know, thank you Fie out
50:37
Speaker 3: in Los Angeles and they sign They're also doing phenomenal
50:40
Speaker 3: work at the Mayor's office and it's a lot of
50:42
Speaker 3: prison reform organizations. At the end of the day, what
50:45
Speaker 3: prison reform means is for us to have a society
50:48
Speaker 3: where our judicial system works fairly for all of us.
50:51
Speaker 3: The domino effect the prison reform helps us with health
50:54
Speaker 3: care by taking money out of these prisons and put
50:57
Speaker 3: them to the healthcare sector, by taking them out of
50:59
Speaker 3: these press and put them to the educational sector. And
51:02
Speaker 3: that's what's most important. So the reason why our prison
51:04
Speaker 3: reform is important because we have to be where our
51:07
Speaker 3: tax dollars and where our money's being allocated, you know
51:10
Speaker 3: what I'm saying. So it's deeper than that. It's a
51:12
Speaker 3: domino effect, and the domino effect is love and it's
51:15
Speaker 3: educating each other. Understand this. You are your own individual.
51:19
Speaker 3: Don't let no entity or individuals stop you from doing
51:23
Speaker 3: what you love.
51:24
Speaker 4: It's a wrap. Thank you Harold House Moore, Harold House
51:30
Speaker 4: being here and sharing your story, and thank you everyone
51:35
Speaker 4: for listening to Wrongful Conviction. We'll see you next week.
51:48
Speaker 4: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
51:51
Speaker 4: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
51:54
Speaker 4: donor to the Enesis Project, and I really hope you'll
51:57
Speaker 4: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
52:00
Speaker 4: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innocensproject dot org
52:04
Speaker 4: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
52:07
Speaker 4: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
52:11
Speaker 4: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
52:13
Speaker 4: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
52:16
Speaker 4: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
52:21
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
52:24
Speaker 4: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one