Latest / Only Fee-Only / #84 - Mastering Empathy and Connection in Financial Planning with Brendan Frazier

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#84 - Mastering Empathy and Connection in Financial Planning with Brendan Frazier · Only Fee-Only

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: How's it going everyone?
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the only fee only podcast.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: In this episode, we have a guest that we are very excited to have you guys listen to today.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: He is Brendan Fraser and he is a chief behavioral officer.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: He is the host of the human side of money, which is a phenomenal podcast.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: He is an Investopedia top 100 advisor keynote speaker and he is building a community of advisors who are mastering the human side of advice.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: This was a phenomenal podcast.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: There were a lot of great golden nuggets that you can take from this podcast about ways to integrate different things into your practice listening, communication, ways to do it effectively, Some experiments that Brendan likes to do out in public at the men's warehouse.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Even this is a really fun podcast.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: We're so excited for you guys to listen to it today.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Enjoy this episode of the only fee only podcast with Brendan Fraser.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: What's up everyone.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of the only fee only podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: I'm Peter Travelo.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: I'm here at my co-host, brock Buckles.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: How's it going today, brock?
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Loving life.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Man, how are you Loving life too?
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Today, we're really excited to have on Brendan Fraser.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: He's the founder of Wired Planning and he's also the host of the Human Side of Money podcast.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Brendan, we're so excited to have you on the show, man.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm very excited to be here.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: The feeling is 100% mutual.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: It's one of those things where I've seen what you guys have been doing from afar for a while.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: This is one of those what I call no brainer decisions where whenever you reach out and say, hey, do you want to come on?
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: It was an absolute yes.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: You'll never regret it kind of thing I'm pumped to be here Awesome.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate that.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: A lot of people they know who you are.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: But for those who don't know who you are, you want to just give a quick 30, 60 second overview of who you are and who you're currently helping.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's many things that I'm not good at.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: One of the many things is being concise in my responses.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: I'm glad you gave me those parameters 30 to 60 seconds.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: If you want, go ahead and hit start and see if I can do it.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Take as long as you want, man, but yeah, so I guess the best way to describe it is been in financial services, for I was telling somebody just the other day Showns Bazaar over a decade going on 13 years started off working as a consultant to advisors, did that for a number of years, which is cool because I got tons of repetition, got to see a lot of different things working, a lot of different scenarios, got to learn a lot of things that I would never, ever want to do if I was to ever be an advisor, but also saw some where it's like these are the things I would definitely do and what I would want to adopt, and so it was a great learning experience, a great chance to break into the industry without having to worry about going and getting clients and some of the stress and stuff that can come with that, and so that's how I broke in Fast forward.
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: Six years later, I was traveling a lot in that role.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: We were having a kid well, not we, my wife was having a kid and so I decided that you know what?
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: I don't really want to travel and I want to be gone when my family's around.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: So I said, all right, now's the time I'm going to move over, I'm going to start, I'm going to open up my own practice.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: I'm going to do the fight, be a financial advisor, open my practice, work with clients, and so started down that path, did that for the next five years again, just like taking about four to five years, taking the things that I learned, things that I liked, bringing in, implementing it.
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: Try to be a student of the game, but at the same time, at the same you guys hear that, by the way, you guys hear that noise of there's.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: They're banging on the.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: Sorry, I know I'm creating editing work.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: I apologize.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: You're good.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: This is happening beforehand.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: They're like banging on the bathroom up there and I was like you can't hear it.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: No, not, maybe for a second.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: You're good, all right, okay.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry for that extra work.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: When you go back and listen to this and edit it out, you'll hear me say sorry again.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: I apologize, all right.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: So at the same time, right as around the time when I was getting ready to launch this advisory business, I've sort of had this realization that I'm probably more fascinated in the human side that I am the actual technical side.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: I don't get me wrong, I'd be on, the kids is calm.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: I'd be reading all the technical articles on retirement planning, but the ones that I enjoyed the most were the ones that had to do with the human side.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: Those are the ones that I was really diving into and in my experience that I had had working with advisors, you would hear all the time something like I feel like more of a therapist than a financial advisor.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: I feel like I'd be better off with a degree in psychology than communication.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: Like well, anybody that's worked with human beings and their money for any length of time recognizes that it's not enough to just simply study and get your designations and certifications like amass all this technical knowledge and expect you can go and deliver advice at a high level.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: It doesn't take long before you go oh, there's a human component to this.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: There's a human being that has emotions on the other side of the table, and money's an emotionally charged topic, right?
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: So in these conversations I would have with advisors, they would all acknowledge that I even polled them at one time and said how well, what's more of your job?
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: Is it more technical or more emotional?
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: And 80% of them said it was more emotional.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: And I just I love asking people questions, so I would go back and say, all right, what do you do about that?
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: If that's the case, which, if that which it probably is, if that's the case, what do you do about it?
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: They would all just look at me, this blank stare, and be like, yeah, I mean, I read a book, right, I watched somebody else do it, and it's like is that good enough?
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: I don't think that's good enough.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: So I was out on a walk with my dog listening to the podcast that I like and thought to myself wait a minute.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: What if?
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Maybe I'm the only person that thinks this stuff is interesting, maybe I'm the only person who thinks we should get better at the human side, but maybe not Right?
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: And the best way I could think of to figure it out was to say All right, there are a lot of people out there who know a lot about the stuff, who have researched, written on it, written books, done research, all kinds of stuff.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: What if, as advisors, what if, I had this podcast where we'd invite these people on and we could, in effect, learn the things that we needed to know from these people that have done the work and then talk more specifically about how to apply it, and so?
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: I kinda thought at that time like, all right, at the worst case scenario, I'll meet some cool people, have some good conversations and I'll learn things that I can apply in my practice.
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: Well, I didn't know it was gonna happen.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: But then you fast forward three, four years later and it turns out that I guess advisors are actually interested in this, and not just in the US.
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: You've got advisors around the world who are saying, hey, I've got this technical side down.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: I need to get better at the human side, the emotional side, how to talk to people, the psychology, the behavior change all the things that I didn't get taught in training, designations and certifications.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: And so once that started taking off in a way that I had always hoped but didn't necessarily know if it would come to fruition that way, once it got to the level where there was demand and interest and that took off, then I said, hey, this is way more fun than working with clients.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: Like I had a client who this was probably the nail in the coffin for my advisory business.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: I had a retired client who every time we would talk, would tell me about her 15 cats, and I just remember sitting there one time being like I would rather talk to advisors about how to build their business and better serve their clients than I would talk about these 15 cats.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: And so she was cool.
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: Hopefully she'll never listen to this.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: I don't know why she would, but I just remember being like, all right, it's time.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: Right, I enjoy this advisor work better, so moved away from working with clients and kind of went all in on helping advisors but do what I call master, the human side of advice.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: And so, peter, I hope that you did not time that, because there's no doubt that that was well over 60 seconds.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: No, I love it, I love it but that at least lays the foundation for the discussion.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: So I mean, just from Brock and I's experience, I mean, and even as young business owners, like in the first year or two, you feel the need to like regurgitate a bunch of info, prove that you know stuff, and then once when you get going into past year four, five, six you start seeing that it's a lot more of the human side of things.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: So where are advisors starting to reach out to you, and is it just like they've been following you for a while and they know they need to do it, like kind of what's the top of your funnel, look like.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's probably a few different entry points.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of it is like you've gotten to.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: They've gotten to a point where they realize, like usually it crops up in a situation where they can't seem to overcome it.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: I guess I'll put it that way.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: So, for example, it could be hey, I was giving, I was working with this client.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: I had told them like the things that they needed to do, but they haven't actually done them.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: Like why are they not doing these things?
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: There's no logical reason.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: There must be a human element to it.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: Or it might be things like hey, I'm gonna meet with a prospective client.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: Like I know that I need to build trust in this meeting, in this first meeting that I have.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: I know that I need to build trust and connection, but also, I'm awesome at what I do.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: I've got all these services that I provide.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: I literally change people's lives because I can do all these amazing things and I want them to know all these great things that I do.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: But how do I do that and build trust and connection at the same time?
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Or it might be somebody that's like hey, I mean, I know I do this whole like goals thing because I think talking about goals is better than not talking about anything, but I kind of feel like I want to have deeper discussions than goals.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: Or maybe one of the common ones, too, is like I've been doing this for a long time.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: I have these clients I've worked with forever and I've sort of lost my passion for meeting with them.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: I got these my review meetings don't have any more zest to them, it's just pretty basic.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: We've standard and feels pretty blah, and so how can I go back and reignite the conversation in a way that's fun and interesting and go beyond like hey, how are the grandkids, what are your goals?
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: And have a deeper, more meaningful conversation?
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: So, in other words, just like any business, I think it always crops up around some pain point where you can't seem to figure out what to do and what.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: Usually what happens is it's like hey, those are the pain points, we'll call them, and then they go.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Wait a minute, and when that happens, they go.
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: How am I supposed to learn this?
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: No one ever taught me these things.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: And so and again, like I said, I sort of took a leap and said I think we need to know these things.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: I imagine people want to know how to get their clients to be more likely to implement and follow through on their advice.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: I think they'd be interested in figuring out hey, I know I need to build trust.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: Everybody says people don't care how much you know, so they know how much you care, but nobody ever tells you how do you do that?
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: They're just like hey, get them to trust you and trust us, it'll work.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: And you're like I remember sitting there being like, yeah, I need to do that, but like, what is that?
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: How do I do that?
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: How do I effectively build trust with somebody, aside from just asking them questions about themselves and trying to make the most of that conversation?
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: So it comes from a number of different angles, but almost always you look up and you go I need help and no one taught me how to do this.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Man, I'm curious how much do you feel like the wholesaling side because you had to go around?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I talked to a bunch of people about different things.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I've noticed in the field and community, especially like having started at a big Fortune 500 company where there's all this sales language and training and how to get to know people and all this stuff, right, yeah, now that I look back I'm like didn't love the company.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: That was pretty good training at the end of you know what I mean, like getting in, learning how to talk to people, learning how to ask questions.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Like a lot of the feeling of financial planners that I've talked to and no fault against them, right, the extent of the insurance knowledge has been what they learned in the CFP curriculum, right, and so they're like they'll ask me simple questions like how do you get into the insurance conversation, like without it being super uncomfortable, and we'll talk about that, and it's like by the end of the conversation it feels like a light bulb, is like, oh, okay, you know what I mean.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, so do you feel like kind of starting that way gave you a little bit of an advantage, having to get in those conversations and go around and talk to a bunch of people.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: Starting what way exactly?
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Like when you originally kind of got in the business and did like the wholesaling and all of that.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: You know, I've thought about this a lot because that was some of the best, like maybe my favorite job I've ever had.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: I think I came a lot.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: I think it helped develop me in a lot of ways and I'm thankful for it.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: I still have some friends to this day from that job, but I would say that the things that I don't know that it effectively prepared me.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: No, I think it's a different relationship, a different quote-unquote sale, a different way of going about.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: Now, trust is trust.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: Don't give me one, but I think so.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: Let me.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: Maybe the best way to explain it would be this so do I think that if you ask people questions about themselves, listen, get them talking about themselves that they're naturally going to be more inclined to like you and trust you and open up to you as a result.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we pretty much know that from data.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: We know that from what the brain does and the articles that are released, but I don't think that's enough, because ultimately, it's like what questions should I be asking?
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: How do I stay curious?
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: And so certainly I would say that I would put it this way I think it laid a good foundation, it opened up my eyes to it's like good sales principles.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: Sure, I think it was also what showed me that it's not descriptive enough, it's not applicable enough.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: It was almost more like hey, here are these broad-based lessons, go and figure out how to bring them to life.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: And so everything that I do is designed around hey, how do we take like the research is done?
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: There's education out there on how to do these things, but how do you practically do it day in and day out, in conversations that you're having with clients and with prospective clients?
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: It was enough to pique your interest, but you wanted to learn more still.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: It felt like it was good, but it wasn't good enough.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: That's fair.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: What's kind of like the first kind of like, once, when an advisor engages with you, like where do they even start?
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure you do like an audit and things like that.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: But I mean, I heard you say sales training and I feel like whenever a fee-only planner here's the word sales, they've stepped on an aunt mound and have this feeling on their skin.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: So, starting there, how do we get over the hump to actually having, you know, a little bit of a human conversation?
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: How do you get over the sales hump?
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I'm just the fear of the word yeah.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: So in one of the trainings that I do it's called the ultimate intro meeting.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: I address this pretty much right up front because and I was thinking about this while I was on a run yesterday it's like if I could map out the power rankings of the most important things you need to be successful in this job and the financial advice industry, it would be number one, mindset, number two, eq emotional intelligence and number three, iq.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: Like the IQ is on its way to just being table stakes and not to mention all the other.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: So, number one it's on the way to being table stakes because we've got computers and technology that are going to be able to do what we do faster, cheaper and more reliably.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Number two it's already table stakes because the knowledge that you've acquired almost everybody else has as well.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: So I mean it's not really a different year Now.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Then you can have good EQ, good conversation skills, you're a people person.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: You know how to be emotionally intelligent and relate to people.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: That's more important than IQ.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: It's more of a differentiator.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: But I think mindset might be the number one thing that separates people from separates advisors from being where they are to where they want to be the example you gave there, peter, I think is the classic but also the most prominent and best example to highlight, which is the sales hub, this mindset of like I don't want to be a salesperson and so I've got a few different ways that I sort of think through this.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: But I guess the two things I would say is this Number one is we have to reframe these conversations and look at it not as selling.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: You're not selling somebody.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: You're sitting there trying to guide them through a conversation, to help them evaluate are you the right fit for me and am I the right fit for you?
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: And so if you truly believe that you can help somebody, that you have value to add, that if they work with you they're going to be better off, their life will be better off, then I would argue you sort of owe it to them to make sure that you're doing everything you can to increase the likelihood that they become a client.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: You're not selling them, but if you truly believe in what you do, then you look at it as I'm not selling you.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: I'm reframing this as guiding you through a conversation to help you gain the clarity to decide do I need to work with a financial advisor or not?
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Because the reality is Nancy Blakey said this on my podcast.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: I've still never forgotten it she does a lot of work around sales process and sales training and she pointed out we have to remember this isn't like going to the grocery store and deciding what cereal to buy.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: People don't make the decision to work with a financial advisor every day or every week.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: It's like you may make it once or twice, so they just simply don't know how to make this decision.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: So you're not selling them.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: You're guiding them to help them give the clarity that they need.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: So that's the one thing that I would say that I'm pretty passionate about.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: It's a little bit it feels a little bit harsh to say it this way, but I've come to truly believe that if you're not doing everything that you can to help somebody go from prospect to client assuming that they want to be helped and that you can help them and they'll be better off as a result you're letting that person down.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: You're making them worse off, because what tends to happen is, if they Well, we don't ever know for sure, but oftentimes what happens is they'll meet with you.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: They don't move forward or they drag their feet because you didn't do a good enough job, because you were worried that you were going to sell them and you didn't want to sell them.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: In the meantime, they're not doing anything with their finances.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: As we know, the longer it takes you to do something, the further you're going backwards or it's less time you can be improving your situation.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: But oftentimes what happens is they'll probably never go meet with somebody else again.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: They may never work with somebody else or maybe five years before you work with somebody else.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: If we go to the technical side of things, you know the number side.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: You know that doing something for five years can make a massive difference over the trajectory of somebody's life.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: So if you're sitting there going, hey, I don't want to be a salesperson, I'm nervous about selling, and it's that mindset that prevents this person from getting help.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: Because you're so worried about being a salesperson, you've let them down.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: You've made them worse off because they should have been working with you.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: And so I'm not saying, whoa, that was bad.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that it's easy to do.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that you can just flip a switch and your mindset shifts, but you got.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: That's why I say mindset's most important, because if you can go in with a mindset that, hey, I'm going to meet with this person, it's going to be the best conversation they've ever had around money.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: I'm going to help them walk out with the clarity of knowing exactly what they need to do to put their financial life in a better position.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: That should be the mindset going in, and if they become a client as a result, then that's great.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: But you're not worried about the outcome, you're just worried about the experience that you're delivering.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Another thing, man too, is like the worst case scenario might actually be like not them, not ever doing anything, but someone else selling them or whatever and getting in front of them and then encouraging them to do a bunch of things that actually set them back way further than they would have been if they didn't do anything at all.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: I mean that's a great point and it's not unlikely.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: It's not.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: It's probably not an unlikely scenario because those people and we'll just generalize here and this probably isn't fair, but we're going to do it anyway- but, generally speaking, those people that we're talking about, who may be selling a product or doing what's not looking at the client's best interest, they're the ones that are good salespeople, by and large, to most of the time.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: And so they have the skills to get them to become a client, because you didn't put a little work and effort into it.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: They're now going to go find that person who can convince and sell them and, like you said, make them worse off.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's a great point.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, go ahead, Pete, do you have something?
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I was just going to throw in the Uncle Eddie coming in to sell the whole life.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, From Truthful Mutual.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: No, I mean he does have more times than not, and the thing is is I've gotten a chance at this point to talk to thousands of planners and there's so many people that are well intentioned that just need that extra.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Like how do I get in this conversation?
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: How do I have it?
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: How do I actually pound that impact home and help these people understand the importance of these concepts that I'm trying to get across to them?
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Because without effective communication and being able to actually say it and get your point across like if everything's trapped in your head and you can't communicate it it's like you understand it but nobody else can.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: So it's really important to be able to master those skills is kind of what I hear you saying.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I truly believe that the foundation of success in financial advice is your ability or inability to build trust with somebody.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: Because if you can't build trust, it doesn't matter how smart you are, how great your technical knowledge is, if you can't build trust and connection early on, you're not going to get that prospect to become a client.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: Or, let's say, you miraculously somehow get them to become a client because their pain is such that they're desperate to find somebody and they don't want to go interview a bunch of people.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: By the way, I have this.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: I also believe that the reason why the sales process, or the way advisors do their first meetings, and the sales process, the reason why it works, it's not because we run good meetings, it's because the bar has been set so low that all you have to do is do an average job and you can still get clients.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: And I think that's probably another podcast altogether, but all right.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: So yeah.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: But the point being is that maybe, let's say, you luck into getting this person to become a client because nobody's better, they don't do any better, the bar's set that low.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: Well, then they become a client.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: And if you still don't have trust, then you're going to be telling them the things to do or recommending things, giving them advice on how to improve their situation.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: And then that's when you sit there and you're like why are they not doing what I told them to do?
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: Like they literally said here I am today.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Here's point A.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: I want to get to point B.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: In five years I mapped out, step by step, how to do that for you and you're still not doing anything.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: It's like well, part of that there's a lot of reasons behind that to behave, you're changing, but part of the reason is that if they fully trusted you, it'd be much more likely to happen.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: So you see that the lack of trust and ability to build trust is.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: It's evident throughout the relationship, from the very beginning all the way through to even if they become a client and working with clients on an ongoing basis.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: For sure.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: No, I think that's fantastic.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Man, let's flip gears a little bit, because you've got an amazing podcast.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear, like, how that kind of gets started and then who are some of the guests and what are the things that you've really learned in that podcast.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Talking through people who are all experts kind of in different fields that you're like man I am like, for having these conversations is making me better and everybody that's listening better.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: So it started again.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: Like where I was out on a walk listening to podcasts, thought, hey, I kind of want to start a podcast, which I know a lot of people have had that far right.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like, yeah, that'd be interesting, I don't even know how to.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: No joke.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: No joke, I had the mic for two years before I ever hit record.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Like in my mind it was going to be this commitment device where I was like, all right, if I get the mic and I post a picture of it on social media, then I have to do it, like I'm holding myself accountable.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: Fast forward two years later and I was like I still haven't done anything.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: So it wasn't just like I snap my fingers and this happened.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: But no, I mean, I think I'd been a student of this side of the game for a long time While the mic was sitting there gathering dust.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: I've been putting together to this day the spreadsheet that I still use of potential guests, people that I think would be fun to have conversations about this stuff with, and it's just an ongoing, ever growing list at this point.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: So, anyways, yeah, just kind of launched it, put it out there.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Like I said, didn't know if it'd be well.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: At first it felt like crickets right.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: You're like is anybody even anybody?
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: even care, and then over time it just kind of steadily picks up some steam, picks up some steam, and so at this point I say it all the time like I'm beyond, I'm sort of blown away at the guests that have been willing to come on and contribute their time and energy to having the and I don't do short episodes, these are long form conversations, right Cause I want to get deep and figure out what to do.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: And so, if you excuse me, if you had told me in 2020, when this thing first started if you'd gone back and told the 2020 version of Brendan, who was new to the mic, didn't know what the heck he was doing I'm not sure I still do, but definitely didn't know that I go back.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: I go back and listen to old episodes and it's like you can hear how nervous I am in my voice.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: But yeah, and so if you had told that Brendan, if you'd said hey in at this point, 108 episodes later, you're going to have, you're going to have had these guests on the show and, by the way, you're going to have had these guests reach out to you to be on the show, I would have.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: I would have thought there was no way.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: There was like literally impossible.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's been and I don't say that.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: I hope you don't hear that in like an arrogant way.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: I say in like a my mind is blown kind of way, how cool it's been to be able to do that, like just people who I would sit around and be like I would 2020, I would have been like I would love to have a conversation with that person.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I get to actually do that.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: I just hit record and talk through things with them.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: So that that's been fun.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: And then, as far as what I've learned, I mean that's I could well.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: I actually have a whole podcast episode on that's called the 10 insights to master the human side of advice, where I literally go through and say, all right, these are the 10 things that crop up over and over and over again in these conversations that advisors need to know, the most applicable practical things.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: But so I can give as many as you want, but I'll say the one that sticks out time and time again is how often when I'm talking to people about especially experts on communication skills, connection, trust, how often the importance of listening comes up, but not just listening.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: How often the importance of listening comes up and the acknowledgement that none of us are very good at it at all.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: And so we all know that it's important, we all hear it's important.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: But I had this guy on last week.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: He teaches at Stanford, he's in the graduate school of business.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: He's like the spontaneous communication guy.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: He wrote the book on it and I was like all right, so what's the like?
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: One thing you think makes the biggest difference as far as like better communication.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: He's like no brainer, it's listening, and I was like, well, I think so too.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: But it's good to hear you validate what I think, because I don't have the research to back it up.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: I didn't write the book.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: But, yeah, it's been interesting just to hear how how consistent that theme is.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: It's like we all know how important it is.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: We all know when we're in the presence.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: I think of a really good listener.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: But there's this book behind me called You're Not Listening.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: That says that the vast majority of people don't have any more than one or two people in their life that actually truly listen to them.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: So to me it's like what an opportunity to a separate yourself from the competition to other advisors but be like, if you can actually listen with empathy, listen with curiosity, make them feel heard and understood, you're elevating yourself relationally to the same place as probably two of the closest people in their life.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: It doesn't mean you have to be best friends with them you can if you want but the connection, their willingness to open up and share with you, is on the same level as probably like a family member and their best friend.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: It's just really really hard to do.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, love that.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: So what are some of the other 10 items to help improve your communication skills?
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: So listening's one.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: So in tandem with that is the power of asking questions and there's research out there that shows that in the study they had two groups and the people that asked just simply asked somebody more questions, that they talked and they got responses from the feedback from the people in the groups.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: They proved it, found that, based on the research, they watched the recordings, they talked to the people and it was like, hey, the more questions you ask directly correlates with more trust, more likability and more willingness to open up and convey personal information.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: And I was joking say like All right, if I'm an advisor and I said and somebody came and said, hey, I have this pill and if you take it you're going to instantly build trust, instantly build like a increase your likability and they're going to open up and tell you the most important things you need to know about their life.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: Because, by the way, the quality of your financial plan and advice is directly related and contingent on the quality of the data that goes in.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: So the better data emotionally you can get about the person, the better plan you're going to deliver.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: So if I said it's going to boost your trust, increase your likability and give you the most important things you need to know.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: We'd all be like, let me take that right away.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: Like that would be the secret, the shortcut to delivering it, but to getting prospects become clients and clients to stay clients forever.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: And so I think we.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: It goes to in tandem with listening, right, but just even the power.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: There's power in just asking questions.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked that, pete.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked that because are you familiar with Scott Frank?
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Do you know Scott Frank?
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: You had him on the podcast.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, all right.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: So Scott Frank might be the best person that I've ever met.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: At that I'll never forget.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: I met him at this past XYPN conference, right, and I was like what is different about this guy?
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: I couldn't figure it out.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: I'm like he's got a cool vibe, he's got a cool aura.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: And then I was like this dude listens better than anybody I think I've ever talked to.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: And then he did, and then the second thing that you said, and then he asked questions and then he listens more.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: And then I was like within 10 minutes of talking to the guy you're like why does this feel so good to be talking to this guy?
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: And it's those two things it's incredible, yeah, I mean.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: so.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: The reason why we know why that works so well is because when you get somebody to talk about themselves, so if you're listening really well and they're talking about themselves, it literally releases chemicals in the brain.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: It lights up the same area of the brain as when you eat chocolate and engage in sexual activities the reward center, and so despite your preferences on chocolate and sexual activity, just know that the vast vast majority of Americans, or no worldwide people in the world, enjoy both of those activities immensely, and so if you can get them talking about themselves, it lights up that part of the brain and that's why I always use this example.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: It's like we think about the last time you walked away from a conversation with somebody and you were like I really like that person, we should hang out with that person, I want to spend more time with them.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: If we, I could, I would guarantee you I would bet everything I had that if we went back and replayed that conversation, you talked more than they did.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: I'll give one quick story on this, because I think it's kind of funny.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: It's a good way to illustrate.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: So I also like to practice what I preach.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Communication's a contact sport.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: So if you don't practice it, you're going to start atrophying, and if you want to get better at it, you have to practice it.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: I got that from Megan Lertz, who I think is one of the best at this in the whole game, and so we talk about this stuff a lot, we do some training on it and it's like communication is a contact sport.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: So I was like I'm going to practice what I preach.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: I go to men's warehouse.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: The other day had to get a tux and I just delivered one of these trainings on asking questions and listening, so it's top of mind.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: I was like you know what I'm going to go in here and I'm just going to focus on.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to ask as many questions as I can.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: I'm going to try not to talk about myself and I'm going to be silent for as long as I can until it feels awkward.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: Those are my rules.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: Ask them questions, don't talk unless asked a question about me, and then try to be silent for as long as possible.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Well, fast forward.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: About 30 minutes later I'm checking out paying for the tux and he's like, hey, dude, we should go grab lunch sometime.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: And I was like whoa, whoa, hang on.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: I don't know what I was going for, I was just trying to practice these things, but it just shows the power of you can build a quick, instant connection in less than 30 minutes by just being truly, genuinely interested and curious in another person.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: The thing that blows my mind all the time is I'm like how is it that I talk about this?
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: And it feels like it's a secret of some sort.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: People are like oh yeah, that's a good idea.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: It's like I think we all know these things.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: We should need to get better at doing them.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: And, by the way I'll finish it with this it's not easy to do.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: Our natural inclination isn't to sit back and listen, because listening is hard.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: It's a lot easier to talk by yourself.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Remember.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: It's like firing the reward center of your brain, like right now.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: Here I am hogging the conversation and it just feels good to be talking about myself.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: My reward center is firing on all cylinders Like Brock.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Peter, thank you for asking me questions.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: Please keep asking me questions when I'm done.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be like those guys are great, we should hang out For sure no, and I think a big thing about like one of the things about listening that I think it's important to communicate is people are like, well, what does it mean to really be intentionally listening?
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Because a lot of people think that means just, I hear you.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: It's like listening intently to someone without thinking about what you're going to say next.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: You're actually absorbing what they have to say and you're being intentional about it, and it's super hard to do, but it's an important thing to kind of bring home and kind of center in your life for sure.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Go ahead, pete.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I was just going to ask.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, I see it thrown around a lot kind of in the XY planning network Facebook page and it comes a lot with young advisors like imposter syndrome and just kind of having a lot of head trash when starting the firm.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Like what are just some general tips, because those first couple of years starting an RIA and that's who most of our audience is XY planning network what are just some general tidbits just to keep your head on right and to make sure that you understand that it's a long game?
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah I mean.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: So I'll give you the one thing that helped, because I think everybody's situation is different.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: So we're thinking about all right, how do I battle this imposter syndrome, how do I get myself in the right mindset, more confident, and stay in this with a long game approach?
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: The thing that helped me the most, at least in terms of confidence and mindset, was when I realized one day I was like, hey, this job that I'm doing, what college job?
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: The work that I'm doing in people's lives, like we're focused on the money, and it literally produces a financial ROI.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: You can oftentimes map back, you can quantify the financial impact you're making in somebody's life, but I would always try to remind myself that the ROI of financial advice is not just that.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: It's three dimensional.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: There's the financial piece, but there's also a time element.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: You're literally saving people time, giving them time back that they can use in other areas of their life, and there's also an emotional component.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: You're helping, you're creating more peace of mind, you're helping them sleep better at night, you're helping them know that their money's aligned with the things that are most important to you in your life.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: And so I guess what I would say is I would challenge you, anybody listen, define me a role, a job.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: So the work that somebody does that is more important than increasing their money, their time and their peace of mind.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Maybe the only thing you could say is, well, certain doctors that save people from dying, because if they die they can't increase these things.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: But by and large, it's like, well, you or we're doing work that helps to maximize their money, their time and their peace of mind, and I don't think you can find a better bang for your buck.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: So in those moments when I'd be like, when I feel nervous or hasn't, like, do that, is this really that helpful, do they really need me?
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: I'd remind myself of that.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: And then, in the times where it'd be like all right, when I would quote a fee that sometimes felt like uncomfortably high, I'd be like, hey, they're literally not going to be able to pay me more than the value that I'm providing.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: Now, I mean, I wouldn't have said it like that, right, but just from my own mindset, it was like yeah, this is absolutely a good investment.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: You're going to make more.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Let's say we just break even on your financial return.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Let's say we don't even actually make you any money.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: You're still getting back time.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: You're still going to sleep better at night as a result.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Well, man, this has been fantastic.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: It was awesome to kind of hear your thoughts about everything.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I think that you have a good perspective, and my favorite thing was the listening, the intentional listening.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: We're going to put the episode in the show notes.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: You were talking about the top 10 things, so everybody check that out and, yeah, appreciate the time today, man.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: And any last thoughts before we let you go.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: No, I mean.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I got lots of thoughts because you opened up the listening box and I could probably go for an hour on that.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: Maybe we do another episode on it.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: But you made the point of like it's not listening.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: It's not just sitting there, but it's like actively listening, being engaged, listening to what they're saying.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: So I like to make this joke just to put everybody, get everybody to accept the fact that there's work to do with listening.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: Well, number one we know that listening is like good driving, athleticism and good looks.
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: People think they're better drivers than the average person, they think they're more athletic than the average person and they think they're better looking in the average person.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: We think that we're good at listening.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: We're generally we're not good at listening.
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: We're all overconfident as far as our listening skills go.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: That's number one.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: Number two is, if all you think that all good listening is is just sitting back, being silent, not talking and sort of nodding our heads or giving some confirmation, I've got bad news for you, my dog and Alexa can do that.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: My dog and Alexa can be quiet and give me verbal or visual confirmation my dog can't.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: Even is when he tilts his head that they're listening.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: So that's good.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: It's not bad to do those things, but that's not actually good listening if Alexa and your dog can do it.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: So there's things to do that's a good place to start, but there's ways to elevate it from there.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: For sure Love that.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: All great notes.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Well, brendan.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming on, man.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: We really appreciate it.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks again for having me.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: This is great, you guys keep doing good work.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Thanks, man.