Latest / Ridiculous History / Inventors Who Died Due To Their Own Inventions: The Irrational Death of Hippasus

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Inventors Who Died Due To Their Own Inventions: The Irrational Death of Hippasus · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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  Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
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  Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our number
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  Speaker 1: one super producer, Max, the Irrational Williams.
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  Speaker 2: Max runs the Numbers, the Numbers guy and Irrational Williams.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have survived.
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  Speaker 3: I am back.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you went on a you went on a bit
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  Speaker 1: of a sojourn, didn't you.
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  Speaker 3: I did. I did. I went to the uh the uh.
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  Speaker 4: I guess it's a midwestern state, but I don't really
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  Speaker 4: understand how it's.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Sort of on the cusp. Right, Yeah, Louis, Missouri. It's weird.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: It feels sort of weirdly southern in some way. It's
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  Speaker 2: been another way is it feels vaguely midwestern.
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  Speaker 4: What I was told is Saint Louis is midwestern, Missouri southern.
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  Speaker 1: So it's interesting. Guys. Oh that's mister Noel Brown.
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  Speaker 3: Hello.
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  Speaker 1: They call me Ben and Bowling. It is, and.
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  Speaker 2: Well for legal and tax purposes. Uh, but I'm going
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  Speaker 2: to get me start on. I'm not gonna pay this guy.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I did.
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  Speaker 1: I took a bath on it, all right, I won't
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  Speaker 1: do it all right, well, like, well there's beending and all.
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  Speaker 5: Well, don't say it on air, but we we we're
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  Speaker 5: talking about some uh, some fascinating rational things today.
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  Speaker 1: This is a unsolved murder from Millennia.
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  Speaker 2: Go.
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  Speaker 1: But while we're talking Missouri, just so everybody knows, uh,
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  Speaker 1: our brother Max was on a vacation and had some
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  Speaker 1: adventures and Max nol I gotta see. I've been to Missouri,
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  Speaker 1: and I love your pronunciation there, Noel. I've been to
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  Speaker 1: Missouri a couple of times, and I was always freaked
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  Speaker 1: out by how far away I was from the ocean.
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  Speaker 3: It is very in land, landlocked.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, don't don't eat this, don't don't eat the fish.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know. It seems like they can get
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  Speaker 2: good fish just about anywhere. We're landlocked here and we're
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  Speaker 2: next to an airport, and we get really nice fresh
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  Speaker 2: fish at our local markets. I wanted to take this
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  Speaker 2: opportunity and talking about the great state of Missouri, h
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  Speaker 2: to shout out a friend of the show, Christy, who
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  Speaker 2: is here visiting in Atlanta right now to see Lady Gaga,
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  Speaker 2: who I went and saw last night, And although our
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  Speaker 2: seats were terrible, it was a fantastic spectacle of a show.
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  Speaker 2: It was like Circa sole A. It was wonderful. I've
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  Speaker 2: got all the song stuck in my head. But Christy
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  Speaker 2: said that calling St. Lewis Saint Louis is like calling
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  Speaker 2: Atlanta Atlanta.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just wanted to give her her due and
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  Speaker 2: just put that out into the world.
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  Speaker 3: It didn't really occur to me that connection.
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  Speaker 1: The bar brothers from a school of humans. Some folks
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  Speaker 1: we work with have said very much the same, and
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  Speaker 1: I'm so happy to hear that. You guys did make
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  Speaker 1: it to the Lady.
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  Speaker 2: Gaga show for the second time. We thought it was
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  Speaker 2: the previous week, and we went. We got all dulled up,
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  Speaker 2: Me and the kid marched our way down to a
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  Speaker 2: state farm arena and there was not a soul in sight.
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  Speaker 3: So you know, it was a trial run.
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  Speaker 2: If anyone gets a chance to see Mother Mayhem, by
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  Speaker 2: all means, please do.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and please note the time signatures, because music is math. Ultimately,
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  Speaker 1: music is math plus poetry.
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  Speaker 3: Son of a bitch.
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  Speaker 1: Pretty good, right, It's pretty good. So we are we are,
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  Speaker 1: by way of irrational segues, we are going to we
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  Speaker 1: are going to explore a story that the Jedi won't
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  Speaker 1: tell you. This is part of our continuing series on
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  Speaker 1: inventors who died in some way due to their own inventions.
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  Speaker 1: This is a special case.
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  Speaker 2: This is especially boy is it ever? You ask yourself,
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  Speaker 2: how can numbers kill? And I gotta say too. When
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  Speaker 2: I saw the headline of this one, the irrational death
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  Speaker 2: of hippoesis hyposis, I read it as irrational death of
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  Speaker 2: hippopotamus and I was excited because that would have been
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  Speaker 2: a throwback to remember the The Hippos The Wild Hippos
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  Speaker 2: a Pablo Star one of our first episodes.
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  Speaker 3: I thought the hit The Wild Hippos were finally getting there.
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  Speaker 2: Due Narco Hippos. For Narco's Narco Hippos? Are those hippos?
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  Speaker 2: What narc are those hippos? What belonged to Narco?
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  Speaker 3: Terror?
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  Speaker 1: Be a cartoon of entity. I recently rewatched Scarface so
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  Speaker 1: I could learn a little bit more about the drug
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  Speaker 1: trade due to recent news. Thanks for the nod Max
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  Speaker 1: acknowledgment that we are in the worst timeline. One thing
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: that's really great about a scarface is back in the
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: day when they used to have to do like edits
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: for television, that one has some bangers. In terms of
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: the replacements of the swears, I'm not gonna say what
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  Speaker 1: the original is. This is a family show, but one
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: of them it turns into from the Bad Thing to
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Miami is just a chicken waiting to be plucked.
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  Speaker 3: So use your imagination. Yeah, jump in here real quick.
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  Speaker 4: My favorite TV edit of all time it's still from
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  Speaker 4: the Matrix, where Neo's on the side of the building
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  Speaker 4: the very beginning and he was like, oh.
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  Speaker 3: Sukes, Okay, don't know that one.
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  Speaker 2: But Big Lebowski also has some really quality ones. One
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  Speaker 2: is this is what happened when you leave a stranger
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  Speaker 2: in the Alps as opposed to the Bad Thing.
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  Speaker 1: It's up there with a so I watch a lot
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  Speaker 1: of foreign films, and it's up there with the weird
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  Speaker 1: translations that attempt to be palatable, where you have someone say, oh,
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  Speaker 1: like the Mandarin would say something like, you know, let's
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  Speaker 1: get it on because we are a family show, and
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  Speaker 1: the translation will be let's spend some time together late
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  Speaker 1: at night.
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  Speaker 2: Now and then make pancakes how and that heck, are
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  Speaker 2: we gonna pivot from Scarface TV at it's back to math.
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  Speaker 2: It was my fault because I said Hipassas, and that
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  Speaker 2: made me think of Hippopotamuss and it's just a whole
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  Speaker 2: horror show. Foh on, But I think I just did it.
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  Speaker 2: We're talking about a Greek.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is the legend of hipposis or hipassis.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you much preferred.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So before we dive in, folks, it is crucial
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  Speaker 1: to note that we as a crew are not math
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  Speaker 1: surgeons or whatever the term is. But for this story,
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  Speaker 1: we do need to briefly explain or explore the concept
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  Speaker 1: of irrational numbers, which sounds like it sounds paradoxical, does
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  Speaker 1: it not.
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  Speaker 2: I think about it with the same level of bewilderment
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  Speaker 2: as I do leap year or or Thanksgiving or Easter.
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  Speaker 2: You know, no, I think I'm more confused by irrational
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  Speaker 2: numbers than giving. Easter is a little bit of a
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  Speaker 2: head scratcher. But Thanksgiving, I know, it's a weird date thing,
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  Speaker 2: but I kind of more or less get it. Irrational numbers, it's.
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  Speaker 3: It isn't a little bit of a heady concept.
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  Speaker 1: M Yeah, all right. So if we were to put
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  Speaker 1: it simply, and this will be important later, an irrational
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  Speaker 1: number is any real number, quote unquote, A positive or
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  Speaker 1: negative number or zero, but it cannot be written as
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  Speaker 1: a fraction. So for a fanci or definition, we could
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  Speaker 1: say an irrational number can't be expressed as the ratio
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  Speaker 1: of two integers.
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  Speaker 2: So this would be maybe to simplify a little bit.
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  Speaker 2: For people that just barely past algebra, like myself, you
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  Speaker 2: might think of this as a repeating decimal.
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  Speaker 1: Right, that's great, Yeah, you nailed it. So decimals that.
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  Speaker 3: Just goes on and on and on.
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  Speaker 1: No, yeah, it's no discernible repeating pattern, right, they continue
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  Speaker 1: being a very famous one. And there are also things
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  Speaker 1: like Euler's number or the Golden ratio.
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  Speaker 2: And stuff like this too that makes me kind of
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  Speaker 2: look at numbers with a certain mysticism. There's a certain
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  Speaker 2: quality of like being able to explain the unexplainable or
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  Speaker 2: sort of boil down the scrits of the universe to
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  Speaker 2: like numbers. And you start to think of like the
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  Speaker 2: movie Pie and Kabbala and numerology and all that stuff.
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  Speaker 2: When I think of irrational numbers and like a number
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  Speaker 2: that just goes on ad infinitum, that starts to kind
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  Speaker 2: of peauk my interest in that direction.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Pie is such a great film. It's a
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  Speaker 1: classic buddy comedy. We've got one.
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  Speaker 2: Totally pleasant, a real good, a real rop. It's one
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  Speaker 2: for the kiddo Police Academy, the movie.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, Police Academy, the movie. Square roots are also Some
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  Speaker 1: square roots are also irrational because they're not perfect squares.
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  Speaker 1: So like if you enter the square root of numbers
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  Speaker 1: such as two or thirteen or eighteen into a calculator,
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  Speaker 1: the answer you get, the reply you get will not
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  Speaker 1: be rational. The square root of two is the best
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  Speaker 1: known of these. As you can tell, folks, this is
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  Speaker 1: a whole messy bowl of spaghetti. But no, I think
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  Speaker 1: we can agree this is on a positive note. It
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  Speaker 1: is an exciting reminder that humanity, even now still doesn't
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  Speaker 1: know everything about math.
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  Speaker 2: Well that's what I was getting at. I mean, I
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  Speaker 2: guess you could see why my head would go towards
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  Speaker 2: the whole mysticism and the secrets of the universe and stuff.
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  Speaker 2: And we have something that is meant to be and
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  Speaker 2: on its surface is completely rational and a way of
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  Speaker 2: boiling things down to very understandable you know, integers, formulas, etc.
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  Speaker 2: To have an aspect of that that's unexplainable, it seems
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  Speaker 2: counter to the whole idea of like the tidiness of math.
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  Speaker 1: You know, yeah, well put and you know in fact, folks,
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  Speaker 1: Noel Max, if we're all cool with this, I would
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  Speaker 1: like to issue an official ridiculous History challenge.
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  Speaker 3: Hmmm. I thought it was going to be a proclamation challenge.
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  Speaker 1: A challenge and invitation way of the open hands. If
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  Speaker 1: you are listening, fellow ridiculous historian, and you become the
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  Speaker 1: first person to solve pie and prove it to us
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  Speaker 1: and figure out where that decimal ultimately ends, we will
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  Speaker 1: take you, Noel Max and yours truly will take you
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: on an all expenses paid trip to a Dave and
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Busters of your choice.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: Preferably you know, one in the the the metro Atlanta area,
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: preferably what I'm geting, we'll go. We'll go over wherever,
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  Speaker 3: whatever your your DNB of choices.
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  Speaker 2: We'll meet you there, all expenses Ben, that's a are.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: Are we sure we can get finance to approve this?
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: We're kind of doing a ask forgiveness loker thing.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I'm also you know what, I'm gonna go
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: ahead and put my money where my mouth is. If
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: you can solve this equation, this lish you know historical quandary.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: I'll pony up the all expenses myself. Oh, come on
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: out of my own pocket. I've got your back.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: Thanks buddy, when you.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Have the Yeah, we got to go haves The's on this.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: That way, we won't get you. Guys are definitely going to.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Max, I noticed you went mute on that one.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: What is there a three way version of Havesy's Triumvirate Tripsy's.
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  Speaker 3: No, no, no, We're a family show.
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  Speaker 1: So for I love the point that you made there
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  Speaker 1: earlier a couple of times. For a lot of us,
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  Speaker 1: the concept of irrational numbers is not simply paradoxical. It
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  Speaker 1: is downright mystical. And according to the legends, we owe
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  Speaker 1: the discovery of irrational numbers to a cult. What's say
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  Speaker 1: we introduce.
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  Speaker 3: Hipposis a numbers cult.
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  Speaker 2: I love it, Like was that one Jim Carrey movie
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  Speaker 2: with the scary numbers.
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  Speaker 1: Over the room. He's in a room.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: He's in a room, and he's I think he's written
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  Speaker 2: all over his face. Even it's called like the numbers.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know if this is there's a name for this.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Whenever there's a number associated with a title or even
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  Speaker 2: a band, outside of blank one any too, because that's
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  Speaker 2: just you know ingrained into my brain.
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  Speaker 3: I can never remember the number part.
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  Speaker 2: You'll often hear me say, it's just it's just this
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  Speaker 2: with some number, I'll never I don't have a brain
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  Speaker 2: for numbers. And that even comes with like remembering addresses
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  Speaker 2: and you know, codes to doors.
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  Speaker 1: And I love numbers, but I don't understand them.
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  Speaker 2: No, you know, I love them too. I think they're fascinating,
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  Speaker 2: as did this cult.
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  Speaker 1: I hope that we make more episodes in the future
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: because I would hate for our I would hate for
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: us to be struck by a meteor or a Shaha
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: drone and then have our last quotations be stuff like
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  Speaker 1: I love numbers, but I don't understand them.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: That was that bient people out on my tombstone. He
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: loved numbers. Noel around who loved numbers but did not understand.
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  Speaker 1: So back around let's say five hundred BCEE or so,
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  Speaker 1: we got this guy named Hipposis h I P P
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  Speaker 1: A s U. S. Of Metapontum, which is you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's common for people of that era to be described
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  Speaker 1: as from a place.
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  Speaker 2: It's a little village right there on the coast of
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  Speaker 2: modern day Greece seems like a lovely place to to vacation.
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  Speaker 2: Some cool historic remnants of you know, Greek column structures
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  Speaker 2: around you can see it was an ancient city of
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  Speaker 2: Magna in Greece.
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  Speaker 1: And our guy, Hipposis, he is a philosopher. He is
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  Speaker 1: an early follower of an enigmatic character named Pythagoras. Now
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  Speaker 1: we all remember the name Pythagoras for one reason, right.
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  Speaker 3: The theorem. Yeah, that's the triangle one.
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  Speaker 1: Right, how do you find the high potten news the
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  Speaker 1: Pythagora pat.
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  Speaker 3: I was high on pot news.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, a square plus B squared equals C squared. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: this was a revolution for the ages. And now it
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  Speaker 1: is an old grade school math question. The thing is,
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  Speaker 1: before we have characters like Plato and Aristotle, we've got
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  Speaker 1: Pythagoras of Samos, And he is the guy who is
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  Speaker 1: running around doing his version of Ted Talks saying math
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  Speaker 1: is the key to the universe.
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  Speaker 3: He ain't wrong, it's not wrong.
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  Speaker 2: I was blown away by how early they figured out
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  Speaker 2: all this stuff. I mean, I was stating the obvious,
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  Speaker 2: but like, it's just these are some smart people who
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  Speaker 2: figured out some very very interesting ways of solving some
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  Speaker 2: very very heady questions using this seemingly on the surface,
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  Speaker 2: very logical, formulaic approach. But Pythagoras knew that there was
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  Speaker 2: something deeper, there was something behind the numbers, and he
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  Speaker 2: took that thinking and more or less built it into
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  Speaker 2: a kind of religion.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so now, Pythagoras, for most of us in twenty
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  Speaker 1: twenty six, Pythagoras is a dusty old name you see
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  Speaker 1: in math textbooks, maybe philosophy books. But to your point,
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  Speaker 1: back in his heyday, his Hauseyon age, this guy was
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  Speaker 1: a cult leader. Essentially, his ideas were so galvanizing, so
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  Speaker 1: electric that people started following him and they created something
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  Speaker 1: called the Pythagorean cult, which he founded and kind of
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  Speaker 1: named after himself in a burst of humility.
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  Speaker 2: This was.
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  Speaker 1: A secretive, mystical communal society blended math, philosophy and interesting
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  Speaker 1: religious practices. Like they were strict vegetarians.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, they believed in the music of the spheres and
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  Speaker 2: in like sacred geometry and all of these sort of
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  Speaker 2: harmonious connections between celestial bodies that they believed could be
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  Speaker 2: explained using a lot of these mathematical concepts, and he
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  Speaker 2: became quite the influencer of the time.
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  Speaker 3: He had over one thousand followers.
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  Speaker 2: At the time who helped him establish sort of an
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  Speaker 2: achrom kind of situation, like a commune, and under his
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  Speaker 2: leadership in that commune, a sort of to your point,
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  Speaker 2: been very holistic approach to living, kind of flourished.
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  Speaker 3: They seemed to have almost like.
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  Speaker 2: An intentional community kind of set.
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  Speaker 3: You know, there we go.
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  Speaker 1: They believed in things like what we would call reincarnation today.
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  Speaker 1: They also had rules that might sound oddly specific, like
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  Speaker 1: you shouldn't eat fava beans. I don't know why with
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  Speaker 1: a nice kiante. Yeah, yeah, nailed it. This thing that
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  Speaker 1: flourishes in modern day southern Italy, this colony that the
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  Speaker 1: Thagoras is leading. They start to become increasingly politically important,
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  Speaker 1: and this makes powerful enemies that ultimately lead to the
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  Speaker 1: ending of this intentional community. That's a story for another day.
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  Speaker 1: For now, it's enough.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you can see why. It was almost the
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  Speaker 2: behavior of like a heretic in a way. If you're
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  Speaker 2: going against the prevailing pantheon and you're saying it's more
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  Speaker 2: important to worship Math than it is to worship Zeus,
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  Speaker 2: I can see how they can make you some powerful enemies.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, especially if you pop off at the mouth with
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  Speaker 1: some easy thing like well, I think Zeus is actually
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  Speaker 1: math and Poseidon is another kind of math. People don't
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  Speaker 1: like to hear that well for sure.
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  Speaker 2: And usually this kind of intense rationalism, I guess you
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  Speaker 2: could call it, even though there certainly was a mystical bent,
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  Speaker 2: tends to fly in the face of like established much more,
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  Speaker 2: you know, rigid religious beliefs that had that worship deities
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  Speaker 2: of some kind, because typically these folks aren't gonna like
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  Speaker 2: put my stock into that kind of thing. I'd bean like,
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  Speaker 2: these these are fantasies, right. It disrupts power structures, that's
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  Speaker 2: the issue. Yeah, And so okay, So it's enough for
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  Speaker 2: us to know now that Pythagoras started occult all about numbers,
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  Speaker 2: saying that reality can be explained through rational numbers and
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  Speaker 2: to your point, through rational thought. Our buddy Hipposis is
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  Speaker 2: an early adopter of these beliefs, and it makes sense
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  Speaker 2: for us even now in twenty twenty six. People have
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  Speaker 2: always endeavored to understand how the world works, and the
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  Speaker 2: claim that the entirety of the universe can be understand
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  Speaker 2: via rational numbers. This concept that everything could somehow make sense. Obviously,
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  Speaker 2: this is hugely appealing, and Pythagoras does end up dying
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: in modern day Italy starves himself, but his followers carry
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: on his traditions for several more centuries. About one hundred
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: years later, the Pythagoreans are maintaining the traditions and they
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: attract the attention of a young up and comer named Hipposis,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: and Hipposis at the beginning is having a great time
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Up until this time, Pythagoreans. Pythagoreans, Yeah, that works. They
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: were busy telling folks and spreading the word to the shade.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: In any case, that all numbers could be expressed as
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: the ratio of integers.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Now let's hold on there, Noel, because okay, have you
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: ever been approached by a cult?
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, the Moonies at the airport, Harry Krishna's the same. No,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: they're different. I think the Moon's and the Harry Christians
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: are a little different. And I know it's sometimes offense.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Did throw around the sea word, and certainly we're not
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: here to denigrate anyone's beliefs, but both of those groups
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: do exhibit some kind of let's just say, uh, recruitment
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: type outreach situation. Yeah, and a scientologists. Have you ever
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: been to LA They'll come at you in the street. Yeah,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: they'll try to get you to come in to the
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: all around Hubbard Museum and take the tour, which you
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: should do because it's interesting.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: But it is a recruitment tactic.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, like Zendik farms we used to have. Again, Yeah,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: they send people out. No, Max, have you been approached
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: by a cult?
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: I remember my freshman orientation or college I got attacked
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: by some people in frats trying to get them to
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: joint of frat?
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: I mean, same thing. What really makes a frat that
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: mus different from a cult type? Yeah.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: It's easier to catch more flies with honey than you
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: do with attacking people MLM.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: So the reason we're asking this folks, and please share
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: your cult stories with us is imagine if you are
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: in an airport or something and person walks up to you.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: They're pitch to you is quote reality is all numbers,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: It's all math, and you're thinking, well, this guy's kind
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: of strange, and then they say further, all numbers can
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: be expressed as the ratio of integers.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: End quote.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: You'd be like, you're the most boring cult leader or
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: you're the most boring cults representative ever. You're a snooze fest.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Aren't you supposed to tell me something weird about ancient
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: aliens or twin flames? But no integers you.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know, man, though, this is interesting what I
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: was getting, because we're obviously talking about the disruption of
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: this orderly way of viewing the universe, and I can
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: see how this numbers thing could have been really attractive
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: because there is something to it that is like so
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: understandable and rational in a way of like explaining a
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: lot of the movement of the stars and the planets
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: and all that kind of thing that sort of is
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: an interesting, easier to wrap your head around alternative some
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: of the more like you know, traditional Greek religious belief system.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: But when you start throwing in this whole idea of like, well,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: what if the numbers aren't as easy to understand? What
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: if there's something else to me? That is where the
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: mystical part comes in. I just wonder how disruptive this
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: must have been.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, along comes are pal Hyposis. From what we know,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: he's an ordinary rank and file cult member, At first
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: they're saying yay number, and he says, yay numbers, and
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: they say be vegetarian, and he says, yay vegetarian, and
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: they say beat me here, Max fava beans, and he says, cool.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I'm still on board. But at some point, according to
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: the legend, he was trying to inscribe a dodecahedron inside
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: a sphere or best shape, the best shape, it's one
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: of the best dice out there. Or he was trying
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: to explain the ratio of lengths in a pentagram one
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: of the symbols, another sarians another six shape for sure.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: And the story goes that while he was trying to
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: figure this out, he realized some of the lengths that
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: he was calculating could not be expressed as fractions. Therefore,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: he provides the first proof of the existence of irrational numbers,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: and he feels like he has to go public, he
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: has to blow the whistle on this rational number cult.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Well and writes, and he was on board with it.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, he was a follower of Pythagoras, so this
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: had to have been mind blowing, galaxy brain type stuff
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: for him as well. And to what I was sort
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: of speculating earlier. It's absolutely true. This flew in the
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: face of everything that these folks believed in and was
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: completely disruptive to their worldview. And I'm sorry if I'm
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: harping on this a little bit, but do you do
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: you kind of see where I'm coming from with like
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: how I how it feels like the mystery part of
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: numbers is more interesting and more a sign of the
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: mystical aspects of it than it being perfect, and like
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: you know, absolutely zero room for error, and like just no,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: it's these these whole numbers. But I can understand how
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: it also at the time would have been really, really
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: difficult to reconcile the two.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: This flies in the face of everything the cult believes,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: their entire worldview. The legend gets a little murky because
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: some people around the time, or within a few centuries
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: after the fact, they would tell you the Pythagoreans took
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: offence at this discovery of irrational numbers, and in other tales,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Hipposis made his results public and he got in trouble
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: not for discovering irrational numbers, but for blowing the whistle
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: about the sect's secret practices.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, there's a little more to numbers than initially met
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: the eye. He's kind of doxing these folks and exposing
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: some potentially problematic behavior.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe so.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: History remembers him as snitching about irrational numbers. But maybe
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: he also so snitched about fava beans and they were like,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: hey man, they'll talk about the beans. That's between us.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: And maybe even this if this means an extra google
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: or something like what did he do?
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: What?
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: We don't really have too much information on what he exposed. Essentially,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: the legend goes that he exposed the existence of things
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: like the golden ratio or pie. He found that there
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: are some numbers that do not jibe with the worldview
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: of the Pythagorea and cult. Got it, but didn't He
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: also kind of expose some of their practices of, you know,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: somewhat heretical behavior like offending gods and all of these
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: various acts of defiance that maybe they were doing behind
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: closed doors.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: That's part of it. Yeah, that's one of the other allegations.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: We do know that the official story, again still legends
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: at this point time. The official story is that he
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: drowned somehow in the sea shortly after announcing he discovered
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: irrational numbers, and some scholars would later claim that he
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: was murdered by fellow cult members. Definite possibility. The juicier
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: version of the legend is that his discovery did not
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: just offend mortals, it offended the gods as well as Yes,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: his death at sea is a divine punishment because he
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: looked too deeply behind.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: The curtain of reality.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, death at sea, Yeah, what are we talking here?
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Kind of just a voyage that went awry of Robert
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Maxwell's situation. Perhaps that's the thing. Like so many ancient tales,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: this one probably got embellished over time or it was
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: made up entirely. We know that a lot of modern
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: authors will say that hipposis did at least independently discover
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: irrational numbers, but there's not really any direct evidence to
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: support that. There's just a bunch of campfire stories in
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: the game of Telephone.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: And can I also just say there is one version
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: of the legend. Man, I found a cool piece on
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Scientific American how Secret Society discovered irrational numbers, And it's
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: the image that they pulled. It's just like it looks
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: like a bunch of ring raths, Like it's just these
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: shadowy figures, robed figures with no faces. It is absolutely terrifying.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: But one version of this legend is that it was
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: the cult members that turned on him and drowned him
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: to death at Seed.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: This was a hit.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the thing. There's a third possibility about
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: his death. This is again a true crime story that
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: remains unsolved millennia later. What if he did discover ra numbers,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: ruffled the wrong feathers and as fellow cultists got mad
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: enough to kill him. And what if later they claimed
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: he was drowned by the gods to throw authorities off
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: the trail, Right, because.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: Right, the divine punishment for his for his own heresy. Yeah,
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: and I don't keep using that word, but I think
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: it's appropriate. It's it's perfect after all? Then, is now
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: the gods are beyond mortal jurisdiction. We also have to remember,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: just to be fair, not to be fun police about
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: this story, but the world was full of different civilizations,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: and they all had their own math wizards at the time.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Right, they had other people who probably understood something like
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: irrational numbers. I don't know. No, I think it's fair
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: to say that hipposis may have independently discovered irrational numbers,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: but it was probably not the first guy to ever
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: think of that.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Certainly not tons of parallel thinking involved these kinds of
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: discoveries you know, throughout history. But since we are talking
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: about legend here, there's another version that says, and this
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: is specifically referenced in the Scientific American piece that I
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: was talking about, that there's a world or of a
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: version of events where none of.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: This stuff is true.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: That the Pythagoreans actually thought it was awesome that he
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: discovered this stuff, and that them, being such math geeks,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: would have been super impressed and hailed it as a
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: as an achievement, and that would have made Pythagorasts himself
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: proud as opposed to rolling in his grave. But the
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: story of the spooky math cult, I think, is a
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: little sexier. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot sexier. It's rational.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Dare we say to enjoy the juiciest version of a
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: But we know one thing for sure. Irrational numbers exist.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: They some of them have yet to be quote unquote solved.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: If that term even applies, and hipposis is definitely dead,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: is he dead due to his own discovery or is
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: this a campfire tale that people told over and over
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: again for thousands of years. We leave the question to you, folks.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you, as always so much for tuning in. We
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: we hope we did right, fellow ridiculous historians, especially.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: If you know more about math than we do.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: And we've got to thank our super producer, mister Max Williams. Max,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: how do we do?
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Oh, Max, the math man Williams. There we go. I
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: will say, you did just fine, just fine, Thank you.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: No. I know this is a shorter one, but you
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: know it is a little math heavy, and there's certainly
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: some stuff that we could have included, like the specific
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: formulas surrounding his discovery of irrational numbers.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: But it would have just made my it would have
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: done my head in.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much for maintaining my mental health
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: by allowing us.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: To gloss over some of that stuff.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Ben, we didn't get to Graham's number, we didn't get
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: to Skew's number, we didn't.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Get to offer my benefit.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Google Plex.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: We've got so much I don't say no, stop stop
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: while you're ahead, starting.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: To feel the migraine coming.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: We've got so much stuff to get to in the future.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed our recent foray into the spiritualism
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: movement or Spiritualist movement with Jonathan Strickland aka the Quisters.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: So a tepid, irrational thanks to him.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think I've put my beef with
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: strict aside for that last appearance.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: You know, he was so, he was so, he's so
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: pleasant and then made that he'll turn at the end.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: Man, sorry, I have conflicting feelings about that man.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Let's just say big things. Also to doctor Rachel Big Spinach,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Lance aj Bahamas Jacobs, the puzzler we call them.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, yes, Chris Frosciotis and he's Jeff cos here
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: in spirit. Also huge thanks to our buddy Main Gosh
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: how ticket Door of Kaleidoscope Podcast Network Fame not network,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: but you know, a production company that makes some incredible shows.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I think we're going to get to hang with that
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: guy come a couple of weeks from now, looking forward
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: to it.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Just the best. And also Noel, thanks to you, man.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: Vou you as well. See you next time, folks.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,