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How to Lead Faithful Innovation in your church · Future Christian

0:05
>> Loren: Um.
0:05
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:08
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church into the 21st century.
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At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now here's your host. Lauren Richmond, Junior.
0:33
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're
0:36
welcoming Tessa Pinkstaff and Dwight Schiley.
0:38
Tessa is the founder of Practices for Life, a
0:41
ministry that invites people to explore christian practices
0:44
as a way to experience God's presence.
0:47
She currently leads the weekly dwelling in the word online
0:50
gathering and serves as a project consultant
0:53
for Luther Seminary's faith lead.
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Tessa is a co author of leading faithful
0:58
Innovation, following God into a hopeful
1:00
future. She has a Master of Arts in ministry
1:03
from Bethel Seminary and is in the process
1:06
of becoming certified as a spiritual director.
1:09
Dwight is vice president of innovation and
1:12
professor of congregational mission and leadership at
1:15
Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.
1:18
He is also a co author of leading faithful
1:20
Innovation and has authored several other
1:23
books. A graduate of Stanford
1:25
University, Yale University, and Luther
1:28
Seminary, he is an ordained episcopal
1:31
priest and has served congregations in Minnesota,
1:34
Virginia, and Connecticut. Dwight's
1:36
experience growing up in a secular home in California
1:39
has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate
1:42
christian community with neighbors in today's changing
1:45
world.
1:46
>> Loren: Let's welcome Tessa and Dwight to the show.
1:56
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond
1:59
Junior. Today I'm, um, pleased to be joined by
2:02
Tessa Pinkstaff and Dwight Shiley.
2:05
So, thank you all so much for being here. We're here to talk about their book,
2:07
leading faithful innovation, which we'll get to here
2:10
shortly. But before we jump into that, uh, Tessa
2:13
and Dwight, anything else you want to say about yourselves for our
2:15
listeners?
2:20
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Yeah, I'll start. Uh, I want to share that.
2:23
What I most love about, uh, the work
2:25
that I do is those moments when
2:28
someone's understanding of who God is moves from their head
2:31
down to their heart. And sometimes you can actually see that
2:34
shift happening, because oftentimes there's strong
2:37
emotion. Um, so what I'm talking about is a person going
2:40
from an intellectual way of relating to God to this
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personal, relational experience of God. It is such a
2:45
powerful thing. Uh, and I want to thank you for having
2:48
us today. It's a pleasure to be here.
2:50
>> Loren: Thank you. Yeah.
2:53
>> Dwight Zscheile: And, um, also thanks for having us. For me,
2:56
my passion is really about helping local
2:59
churches adapt, uh, to connect
3:02
with neighbors and connect with God more
3:04
deeply in today's changing world. And that really comes out
3:07
of, um, my own experience growing up outside the
3:10
church.
3:12
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that, if you would,
3:15
again, also, uh, share y'all's faith journeys. Kind
3:18
of, uh, what that looked like in the past and what that looks like
3:20
today. Tessa, you're welcome to kick off again
3:23
there.
3:24
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Yeah, thanks. Well, I became a
3:27
Christian in college, and when I first started
3:30
my faith journey, my faith revolved around having the right
3:33
answers, knowing the right doctrine, behaving the right way.
3:36
It was all about being right. And there wasn't a lot of room for much
3:39
else because I was first learning what it meant to be a
3:42
Christian. But that's very
3:44
distinct from my journey now. Um,
3:47
it's evolved quite a bit over time, and I'd say now it's more
3:50
about, um, it's about embracing the mystery
3:53
that God has, both knowable through scripture and through the revelation
3:56
of Jesus. But God is also unknowable
3:59
because God is so far outside our finite human
4:02
understanding. I love that.
4:05
What that means is there's always more to discover
4:07
about God, more to explore. And so for me now, it's
4:10
less about being right and it's more about just being.
4:13
The presence of God is what has become core for me.
4:17
>> Loren: That's great, Dwight. Yeah.
4:20
>> Dwight Schiley: So, as I mentioned, I grew up, um, in a secular
4:23
home, grew up in California in a, ah, context
4:26
where Christianity's never been
4:29
particularly well established. And going to church is
4:32
kind of a really countercultural and odd thing to do. And so,
4:35
um, when I came to faith as a young adult, I found
4:38
myself going through a variety of different christian
4:41
traditions, um, just really having a lot
4:44
of powerful experiences in those. And eventually
4:47
settled in anglicanism and was
4:49
ordained, um, been ordained in the episcopal
4:52
church, um, for quite a while.
4:55
Um, and so for me,
4:58
I think of myself as sort of having an
5:01
evangelical heart and an ecumenical soul, you might
5:03
say.
5:05
>> Loren: Yeah, I like that.
5:07
>> Loren: Often, um, say I have a brain of a mainliner in
5:10
the heart of an evangelical. So I think I
5:13
can relate there. Share, if you
5:15
all would, uh, something, a spiritual
5:18
practice that's been meaningful or fulfilling your soul of
5:21
late.
5:24
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Loren, I love this question. Uh, and I want
5:27
to say that scripture meditation is the practice
5:30
that's hugely important for me. We call it dwelling in
5:33
the word in the book, and that's how we practice
5:36
it through faith lead. But what it actually is is it's
5:39
an adapted or a simplified form of lectio divina.
5:42
And, uh, it's something that has
5:45
really nourished me in my spiritual journey,
5:48
and it's a practice that the more you do it, the more depth and
5:51
riches come out of it. Um, the other one that I
5:53
love, uh, that I feel like is something that
5:56
is a little unique to me, is that I'm really into silence and
5:59
solitude. Uh, silent prayer and regular silent
6:02
retreats are an important part of my journey. And then
6:05
the last one I want to say is, uh, simplicity. Um, that's
6:08
a, uh, practice of holding our possessions loosely,
6:10
but also being honest in how we communicate with other people.
6:13
So, like, if I don't want to do something, the practice of
6:16
simplicity invites me to let my yes be yes and
6:19
my no be no. Uh, I love that Jesus gave
6:22
us some good wisdom there.
6:24
>> Loren: Yeah.
6:25
>> Loren: So I guess if you're just done with this, right, you can just be like,
6:27
Loren, I'm done and you're just going to sign out, right?
6:31
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: No, no, that is not good. Today, my yes was
6:34
a yes. I'm here for a reason.
6:38
>> Dwight Schiley: Well, for me, the spiritual practice of simplicity has
6:41
actually been really important in this season of life. Um, my wife and I
6:44
are empty nesters and we're in the process of
6:46
downsizing out of our home we've lived in for
6:49
eleven years into a much smaller place, which
6:52
is great and has involved the
6:55
purgation of a lot of stuff and really kind
6:58
of thinking about what do we really need to carry forward.
7:01
And having been through the process of
7:03
um, trying to help parents, um, who are
7:06
quite a bit older, sort of deal with their stuff
7:09
that's accumulated, um, it's been actually a
7:12
powerful thing to release
7:15
things and just give things away so that someone
7:17
else, um, can use them.
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>> Loren: Those are great. Thank you both for sharing all that.
7:24
So I'm looking forward to, I'm excited to talk
7:27
about this. Um, Dwight, along
7:30
with Tessa and Michael, was not unable to be here.
7:33
Michael Binder, is it?
7:36
>> Dwight Schiley: Binder.
7:36
>> Loren: Binder.
7:37
>> Loren: Excuse me. Michael Binder. Uh, are
7:40
the authors of following God into a hopeful.
7:43
Excuse me, I'm saying this wrong. Leading faithful innovation, following God
7:46
into a hopeful future. This is a book and I was trying to look
7:49
around somewhere. I have the workbook that goes with
7:51
it on my desk, but I must have it
7:54
buried under my other piles of books. So there's a book.
7:57
And then y'all came out with a workbook, which again I thought
8:00
was great.
8:01
>> Loren: I used both,
8:04
um, in churches I've served.
8:06
>> Loren: And I just frankly, was giving a
8:09
presentation at a conference
8:12
this past week and I shared a story
8:14
that we may touch on here of the prayer
8:17
walk. And let me tell you that story just
8:20
it hits wherever you share that, because it's such a powerful
8:23
story. But, uh, before we get into the.
8:25
>> Loren: Details,
8:26
um, just kind of talk about.
8:29
>> Loren: What brought the book, about what inspired the book, that
8:32
sort of thing.
8:34
>> Dwight Schiley: Well, so, Loren, this book is the result of, um,
8:38
us working with our team at Luther
8:40
Seminary, and even before that, with other
8:43
partners, with hundreds of congregations, directly or
8:46
indirectly, over a number of years, where we've
8:49
been trying to help them adapt faithfully
8:51
to the changing context in which they find themselves,
8:54
and particularly to address
8:57
what we think of as a core challenge of learning how to
9:00
connect more deeply with God, each other within
9:03
the congregation, and then with their neighbors. And
9:06
so the book really
9:08
was, um, in our attempt to put into
9:11
relatively, I hope, accessible form with lots
9:14
of stories, um, the learnings
9:17
that we've had, um, over
9:20
years of working, um, with a lot of congregations trying to
9:23
take this journey.
9:26
>> Loren: Yeah.
9:27
>> Loren: And I think it's so helpful. Um, so, uh,
9:30
I want to just kind of like, read through some quotes here, because,
9:33
again, there's so much from this book that really
9:35
stuck out to me and hear y'all's responses.
9:39
So, uh, Tessa, this one really off the
9:41
bat, I think I found this really quite meaningful.
9:44
And I think this is undergirded
9:47
by what I am seeing is this
9:50
implicit belief that church matters. You all write
9:53
that the church is the bearer of God's redemptive mission for the
9:56
world. And at least in some of the circles I run in,
9:59
it seems like there's this more and more.
10:01
I'm not sure what word to say, but this idea that church
10:04
doesn't really matter or is a secondary importance.
10:08
And, uh, you all seem to have a very foundational belief in the
10:11
importance of the church. Do you want to talk more about that?
10:15
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought that quote. It's
10:18
so important. We, um, believe that the church is
10:21
and should be a place where people can actually
10:24
encounter Jesus. And why does that matter?
10:27
It matters because encounters with Jesus and this is
10:30
the living Christ, those are the things that transform
10:33
us. That's what makes it possible for us to bear fruits
10:36
of the spirit and then to actually do the work of
10:38
extending God's grace and mercy into the world.
10:42
We know that God's mission is for the world to be redeemed,
10:45
and the church is the mechanism through which God does
10:47
that. And a lot of what we talk about in the book
10:50
is how, when the church doesn't recognize that it has that
10:53
role, then it becomes. It can be just a
10:56
private club, for example, of programs and social
10:58
gatherings. And it's based on other
11:01
things. But what it really is is it's an
11:04
agency where God's ambassadors are nurtured and trained
11:07
and sent out. And that is why.
11:10
That's why the church matters. And that's also why
11:13
it matters that we make sure that the church is
11:16
an institution that is really fulfilling its mission.
11:19
That's what it exists for.
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>> Loren: Yeah, I want to stay on this point, maybe just for my own
11:24
sake.
11:26
>> Loren: Again, I shared
11:28
that story, a story.
11:30
>> Loren: I referenced from y'all's book in a, uh, little conference I was
11:33
speaking at this week. And, I mean, I pretty much
11:36
said those same words myself. Like, I believe that
11:39
the church is the. I didn't use a word for word, but
11:42
the similar language, the bearer of God's redemptive mission for the
11:44
world. And I think the church is meant to be more
11:47
than just a community center. Uh, kind of like what
11:50
you alluded to, Tessa. Uh. Uh,
11:53
Dwight, do you have any thoughts you want to add to this
11:56
point?
11:58
>> Loren: Yeah.
11:58
>> Dwight Schiley: Well, so I always appreciate Leslie Newbigen's
12:01
statement that the church is the hermeneutic of
12:04
the gospel. The local church is the hermeneutic of the gospel. It's
12:07
the place where the world looks to see the
12:09
gospel embodied and interpreted
12:12
in real life circumstances. And, of course, there's
12:15
all kinds of ambiguity of that, because humans are
12:18
sinful and the church is both holy and human.
12:21
Um, but I do think that the power
12:24
of a local community, of people who are living
12:27
and practicing the way of Jesus is
12:29
essential. And I think the challenges that
12:32
coming out of the long period of Christendom in the west
12:35
at least, we have a lot
12:38
of other purposes that have
12:41
kind of affixed themselves, if you will, to many
12:44
local churches that end up predominating.
12:47
Um, what the main focus is, rather than
12:50
just this participation and witness to
12:53
God's redemptive mission in Christ.
12:56
>> Loren: Yeah. And I want to speak, I guess,
12:59
as a pastor, former pastor, former church leader. This
13:02
is, I think, is what makes.
13:03
>> Loren: It so hard to be a
13:06
leader.
13:06
>> Loren: Is that these are good things. We're not
13:09
saying these are bad things.
13:11
>> Loren: Or unimportant things, but
13:14
I, uh, use.
13:15
>> Loren: The reference of the tail wagging the dog.
13:17
Sometimes some of these good things can get in the way
13:20
of the ultimate purpose.
13:26
>> Loren: So let's talk about this
13:29
idea that.
13:29
>> Loren: You all have of faithful
13:32
innovation. And I'm looking over to my stack
13:35
of books. Uh, I think I've given away several books that,
13:38
uh, I've read that have been good books on this topic
13:40
of innovation in the church. So, uh, Dwight,
13:43
just give some terms there. By what you mean
13:46
by the term faithful.
13:47
>> Loren: Innovation, yes.
13:50
>> Dwight Schiley: So the word innovation is one we have to use really carefully,
13:53
because it's liable to be
13:54
misunderstood, particularly if what
13:57
we mean by innovation is
13:59
invention, or simply the church's embrace
14:02
of the latest kind of
14:05
modern techniques to try to turn around the
14:08
institution. Um, and so
14:11
we don't mean that at all. That word faithful is really important.
14:14
But also, how we define innovation
14:16
comes from, um, some innovation scholars, Denning
14:19
and Dunham, in their book innovators way, and they say,
14:22
quite simply, innovation is the adoption of a new practice
14:25
in a community. And in our case, with the church,
14:28
often that means the adoption of ancient practices that we've actually
14:31
lost along the way. So I would just want to make very clear
14:34
to your listeners here that, um, when we use the word
14:37
innovation, what we're not saying is the
14:40
church needs to grasp after one
14:42
more organizational technique
14:45
to save itself. We think
14:48
that's actually quite wrong. And in fact, the journey that we
14:51
describe is really a journey, again, of connecting
14:54
more deeply with God, each other, and your neighbors
14:57
through simplification of church life, and
15:00
a, ah, refocusing on practices
15:02
that help people go deeper in their life with
15:05
God and participate more deeply in what God's doing in
15:08
the neighborhoods.
15:12
>> Loren: Yeah, it's funny because innovation is quite the
15:14
obsession right now. I feel like in mainline churches, and
15:17
it's at least as I see it,
15:21
it's not about the adoption of new or ancient practices.
15:24
It's about trying new things. Like, I'm literally, I won't
15:27
say, uh, from where it's from, but I was thinking,
15:30
like, I'm literally wearing a,
15:33
a shirt on some innovation conference from
15:36
a certain mainline denomination that was sent to me.
15:39
Um, and then im kind of chuckling because I think
15:41
hes a colleague of yours, uh, the
15:44
book churches and the crisis of innovation.
15:48
I got that book thinking it was a church innovation
15:51
book, and its anything but that. Um, so,
15:54
Tessa, anything you want to.
15:55
>> Loren: Add there about this,
15:57
uh, this different.
16:00
>> Loren: Way of thinking about innovation, not as magic
16:03
bullets or trying the latest gizmo?
16:07
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Yeah, thanks, Lauren. And I want to
16:09
affirm that I love that Dwight mentioned the ancient spiritual practices,
16:12
because I do think that is the key to what we're talking about
16:15
here. I also want to add that the pattern that
16:18
we describe in the book is listen, act,
16:21
share. And what we mean by that is
16:24
listening for the movement, the movement and guidance of the Holy
16:26
Spirit, listening to our neighbors and about
16:29
their hopes and dreams and fears, what keeps
16:32
them up at night. And then from that
16:34
listening, you adopt
16:37
simple experiments. Action learning experiments is
16:40
what we call them. And that's based on what you heard. And you try
16:43
some things in your context. So you are trying something new, but
16:46
it's based on this tradition. It's based on what's come before. It's
16:49
based on the learning and the listening that you're doing. And
16:52
then from there, you talk about what
16:55
you learned and you share that with the community. And then that
16:58
discernment process continues.
17:01
Uh, it's iterative. And
17:04
we find that that pattern was extremely
17:07
effective in the work that Dwight described at the beginning that
17:10
we did with the congregations and the churches, and even
17:13
at the judicatory level as well.
17:16
>> Loren: I love that monarch and listen, act, share. It's so
17:19
simple.
17:19
>> Loren: Go ahead.
17:20
>> Dwight Schiley: Yeah, I'd love to just add a little, kind of thicken this up because I
17:23
think this is really important for us to think about. What do
17:26
we mean by innovation? Um, so one of the
17:29
great core heresies of
17:32
modernity, western modernity, is that humans can save
17:35
themselves. And
17:38
so what we're trying to do in this process, through these
17:41
practices of listening, acting and sharing, is
17:44
actually to subvert that. And we subvert it
17:47
by introducing very simple,
17:49
actionable, accessible things
17:52
that everyday people, ordinary people and
17:54
congregations can try on
17:57
that give them experiences
17:59
of naming God's activity in their lives
18:02
and beginning to name God's activity in the neighborhood.
18:06
And so what we're doing is actually
18:08
subverting the kind of we have to
18:11
fix it ourselves cultural framework that we're
18:14
shaped in, in the west. Um, but we're
18:17
doing it kind of indirectly, if you will.
18:21
>> Loren: Yeah, it's such a different
18:23
model and mindset, uh, to me. I think that's what
18:26
makes it so powerful. Um, so
18:29
kind of to that point, y'all write,
18:32
uh, on page 16. Faithfully innovative
18:35
leadership is less about managing what is truly God's work,
18:38
and more about cultivating an environment in which
18:41
God acts, which again, I think speaks to Dwight, what you were just
18:44
saying. And Dwight,
18:47
I use a highlighting app on my phone and I wrote a
18:50
note here. I cant remember if this was what was in
18:53
the text, but im reading it from my phone. But I wrote a note not
18:56
casting vision. And I listen
18:58
to all, or uh, not all, but several of the
19:01
evangelical podcasts where its all about
19:04
the lead pastor casting a big vision.
19:07
And ill confess, I think sometimes that matters. But I
19:10
think what y'all are saying really strikes
19:13
me as different, yet powerful. Uh, so, Dwight,
19:16
why don't you start with that again? This
19:19
kind of mind shift there.
19:22
>> Loren: Yeah.
19:22
>> Dwight Schiley: So we want local churches
19:25
and all of their people to recognize that the Holy Spirit
19:28
should be the primary leader of the church. And if
19:31
that's the case, the Holy Spirit works among the whole people of God. And
19:34
so leadership is really, really important
19:37
to create an environment in which,
19:40
um, we collectively can attend
19:43
to and name and wrestle with and
19:45
interpret how the Holy Spirit is at work in
19:48
our own lives, personally, in the life of the community, and then in the life
19:51
of the neighborhood as well. So I think
19:54
about leaders as being those who sort of weave
19:57
together and interpret and
19:59
articulate the vision that God has given to the whole people
20:02
of God. But it's a bottom up rather than
20:05
a top down kind of approach.
20:08
>> Loren: Yeah, tess. And I'm, um, thinking about this just again, as
20:11
someone who's been a leader.
20:12
>> Loren: In that context, and I'm curious if.
20:15
>> Loren: You'Ve heard this kind of feedback from other pastors and leaders, like
20:18
the.
20:19
>> Loren: What's the word?
20:20
>> Loren: I'm thinking of, like, the lack of pressure, the kind of.
20:23
The release of pressure to have. To have this big, grand
20:25
vision. Have you all heard any kind of feedback like
20:28
that?
20:31
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: We have with the pastors that we have worked with. They
20:34
describe a sense of freedom. There's a little
20:37
anecdote from the book about one of the pastors we
20:40
worked with talked about having, uh, a cake
20:43
that she was. I don't know if you're familiar with
20:46
the great British Baker.
20:47
>> Loren: Vaguely.
20:48
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Uh, yeah, yeah. Basically, during
20:51
the show, somebody will bring something they've made and they put it before the
20:54
judges and then the judges critique it, but. And she had
20:57
this sense of bringing this lopsided cake to the
20:59
judges, but then through the process of what
21:02
we were doing with her, had the sense that Jesus was
21:05
helping her to carry this cake. And it wasn't just her
21:08
effort anymore. She was being held, being
21:11
supported, and it wasn't about her vision
21:14
anymore. It was about what God wanted to do.
21:16
And she was partnering in that work.
21:19
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:19
>> Loren: And I just. I love that model and that
21:22
imagery of, I mean,
21:25
if anything, just as someone who's been in that leadership role, of not
21:28
having it all on me.
21:33
So I want to move on to.
21:37
From this section of innovation and
21:40
to talk about.
21:44
It's hard to even say the big word that I think is so
21:47
scary, especially in mainline circles, and
21:50
that's failure. Um.
21:55
>> Loren: How does one become
21:58
okay with failure?
22:02
>> Loren: Uh, it's hard to even talk about that.
22:07
I'm belaboring the point here, but I think I'm belaboring it
22:10
because of the fear
22:13
and scarcity. Uh,
22:16
there's this pressure of not only do we
22:19
have small, um, resources, so
22:22
we don't have a lot to risk to begin with, but then,
22:25
because we have such small resources, it has to hit.
22:29
>> Loren: Right.
22:30
>> Loren: So how do we communicate with failure?
22:33
>> Dwight Schiley: Yeah, so we talk about failure,
22:35
really, as, um,
22:38
we try to reframe that around. This is a process
22:41
of learning, and we don't know the answers ahead of time,
22:44
which means that we want to do small experiments as a way to kind
22:47
of behave our way forward. And we want those
22:50
experiments all to be failable in the sense
22:53
that they're not expensive. So
22:56
the kinds of experiments that we talk about in this book
22:58
are all inexpensive, small, on the
23:01
edges of the church's life. We say, don't blow up
23:04
your primary Sunday worship service with a
23:07
big experiment. Um, try small experiments on the
23:10
edges. Experiments are only a failure
23:13
if we fail to learn from them. So I love
23:15
Michael Moyna's statement. There's no such thing as
23:18
failure, only feedback. And so what we're
23:21
looking for is feedback. We're looking for learning. And
23:24
the journey of faithful innovation is really about developing a
23:27
congregation's capacity
23:30
in order to do learning. And learning that
23:33
is different from a kind of expert driven.
23:37
Here's exactly the plan of all the steps we're going to
23:39
take for the next five years. It's much more of, like,
23:42
the book of acts. I mean, the book that we've written
23:45
is really of extended meditation on acts, chapter
23:48
16, which is that wonderful story of Paul and his
23:51
companions taking a missionary journey
23:54
that goes across all kinds of
23:57
territory before finally ending with meeting
23:59
Lydia at Philippi. And, of course, uh,
24:02
that journey includes a lot of frustration,
24:05
redirection, dead ends,
24:08
confusion, ambiguity along the way. And we
24:11
think that's the kind of story that's more adequate to
24:13
describe this moment the churches find themselves in.
24:16
So how do we find our way, discern our
24:19
way, take the journey along the
24:22
way to meet Lydia?
24:25
>> Loren: Yeah, Tessa, I'm thinking about
24:27
failure again in the context of,
24:31
uh, I worked as a chaplain in hospital, so I had to
24:33
do the company wide failure
24:36
training.
24:37
>> Loren: And in the hospital setting,
24:40
there was.
24:41
>> Loren: This obsession with failure. Not like that it was
24:44
okay, or it was obviously
24:46
something to be avoided, but there is this very much
24:50
importance of them trying to build a culture of,
24:52
hey, if a failure occurs, let's bring it
24:55
forward and let's talk about it. And I'm thinking that
24:58
in light of y'all's model of listen, act, share.
25:01
How much, again, y'all talk a lot about culture in
25:04
this book. Uh, how much importance is there
25:07
just to build that culture of
25:10
sharing when failure happens? Because, like, I'll be
25:13
frank, like, I failed, so to
25:15
speak, in some big contexts.
25:19
And to me, it felt like, you know,
25:21
like feedback, uh, was not an
25:24
option. Like, there was no learning.
25:26
>> Loren: I was just, like, it was just.
25:28
>> Loren: Something to be pushed, uh, to the side
25:31
and, like, left for dead, if that makes sense. Like,
25:34
how much of a culture shift needs to happen for this kind of
25:37
important learning to take place.
25:41
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Well, Loren, I appreciate that you brought up the culture piece,
25:44
because we talk, uh, about how
25:46
it matters, what kind of a culture, uh,
25:49
you are fostering in the congregation. It needs
25:52
to be a space where people can more
25:55
easily listen to God, listen to each other.
25:58
And that takes intentionality on the part of the
26:01
leadership. And
26:04
I love what Dwight said, and I agree, of course, about
26:07
the redefining what failure is
26:10
when you do that work, when you redefine failure, as it's
26:13
not a failure, it's a learning opportunity, number
26:16
one, suddenly, that becomes much more easy to talk about.
26:18
So, uh, if you're doing that and you are intentionally
26:21
creating an environment where people can speak more freely
26:24
about the things that they're hearing from God, about
26:27
collectively, what is God calling the congregation to do?
26:30
It doesn't become as much about what are the results
26:33
of this? Did we fail? Did we succeed? It's really about what
26:36
is the journey that God has us on? What is the work that
26:39
God is doing in and through this congregation, and how is it impacting
26:42
the world? I feel like that's a little bit bigger of an answer than you were looking
26:44
for, but that's really the direction it goes.
26:47
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:48
>> Loren: So, speaking of culture, one of the key elements,
26:51
I think, of the culture y'all are trying to
26:54
promote is really this move away from
26:57
a term that's been used, broadly speaking, the professionalization
27:00
and performative nature of clergy.
27:04
You all write, uh, in the latter half of the book about
27:06
people coming to church on Sundays expecting
27:09
to be spoon fed. And there really is
27:12
this expectation, I think, especially
27:16
in recent years. Uh, if you're not being fed by a
27:19
church, it's time to move on from a church.
27:22
As I understand the context of your book,
27:25
you're really encouraging this to be
27:28
a really self led, uh,
27:31
can't say.
27:32
>> Loren: The word, participatory effort,
27:36
certainly.
27:36
>> Loren: Um, I'm thinking about this broadly. More broadly
27:39
speaking, as I think about.
27:40
>> Loren: Like, um, I just had
27:43
him on.
27:43
>> Loren: Ted Smith and his work on the decline of institutions and the
27:46
changing models of seminary
27:49
education, um, and
27:51
credentialing. I feel like this is a win win, I guess, is what
27:54
I'm saying, Dwight. We have this opportunity to empower
27:57
laypeople and also take off some of the
28:00
pressure of clergy who are themselves
28:03
facing some serious headwinds.
28:06
>> Dwight Schiley: Absolutely. So the process that we
28:09
outline is really a lay led process,
28:12
and the role of clergy in it is to make space for
28:15
it and to really serve as kind of like a group spiritual
28:17
director to help, um, the team and then
28:20
the congregation, really ask what Al Roxburgh
28:23
calls God questions, rather than just church
28:25
questions, develop that
28:28
capacity. And so it's not one more thing for
28:31
pastors or church staff to have to take on
28:34
while they are often struggling
28:37
to maintain the voluntary
28:40
association institutional structures in a time
28:43
when fewer people are willing to volunteer or
28:46
invest in them.
28:47
>> Loren: Right.
28:47
>> Dwight Schiley: And so, if, you know, Ted Smith talks quite
28:50
wonderfully about this in his, um, book, the end of
28:52
theological education, around the kind of unraveling of
28:55
this age of association model
28:58
of institutions beyond just the church.
29:01
So what we want to do is say, if you're a
29:04
pastor, if you're a staff person, your job is
29:07
to create this environment in which all of God's people can do
29:10
these grassroots practices that mostly
29:12
happen not in organized church
29:15
programs, but actually in the practices of
29:18
daily life, or in small teams of folks investing
29:21
presence in relationship in neighborhood spaces,
29:24
um, doing prayer walks, or small, um,
29:26
experiments in wherever they are often
29:29
already spending time. So it's not one more thing you're asking people
29:32
to do, to be busy at church or serve on a
29:35
committee. It's really about saying, how can you bring
29:38
a, uh, spiritual, a theological lens
29:41
to the places you're already inhabiting, and
29:44
to pay attention to how God might be leading you there.
29:48
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's helpful, Tessa. I'm thinking about,
29:51
as someone who likes.
29:52
>> Loren: Uh, to study family systems theory,
29:55
consensus.
29:56
>> Loren: Can be a dangerous thing. Uh, as I've heard it
29:59
said, the danger with consensus that kind of
30:02
empowers
30:04
just a single person or minority can really overthrow the
30:07
same the process through their,
30:10
uh, dysfunctional behavior. How does one
30:13
avoid
30:15
demanding? How does one create the culture
30:18
of not expecting complete
30:20
unison, uh, or to,
30:23
or conversely said there might be some.
30:26
>> Loren: People who are, not, to use this word,
30:29
um, mature enough, suppose, in
30:32
their.
30:32
>> Loren: Christian faith, to want to take a faithful step?
30:35
It's a complicated question, but, uh, I'm curious again,
30:38
with culture building, how does one uh, allow
30:41
for that plan for that?
30:43
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Yeah. Uh, we allude to this a little
30:46
bit in the book, and it was part of the process that we had when
30:49
we were working with the congregations. Some of what we
30:52
proposed was finding the core leaders
30:55
that are in your congregation who are ready for this kind
30:58
of work. We had guiding teams
31:01
that the congregations assembled, and that was. It
31:04
was sort of a ripple effect. It starts with the core group that's
31:07
ready. And then as that work is
31:10
flourishing, as the word gets out, as people start talking about
31:13
this sort of has a grassroots ripple where other people
31:16
see, oh, there's something happening here. The movement of the
31:19
spirit is going on here. People are excited. Change is taking
31:21
place. And it's in some ways, that's the basics of
31:24
discipleship. People see that something interesting is happening in
31:27
this pocket of the church, and others want to get involved, and it
31:30
just grows from there. There will be people. I
31:33
want to acknowledge that, and we acknowledge this in the book. There will be people
31:36
for whom this journey is too difficult. And
31:39
there's sort of a blessing of, we see you. We
31:42
know that this isn't what you need. We're going to keep moving.
31:45
We still care about you. It's an important thing to do, but
31:47
it is. You have to acknowledge that not everyone's
31:50
going to be able to do this. And God will take care of the people that
31:53
we have to sort of leave by the wayside as we keep
31:56
moving forward.
31:57
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Thank you for sharing that.
31:59
So I want to read this last quote
32:02
here, Dwight, just because it's so
32:06
potentially, uh, controversial, but I think important. But I want to
32:09
come from your mouth and not mine. Y'all write on
32:12
150. Some churches have adopted identities shaped
32:15
more by political and cultural tribalism
32:18
than by the gospel. This may bring a certain kind
32:21
of energy and engagement from some people, but it
32:23
only confirms the worst suspicions unchurched
32:27
stampers have about how compromised the
32:29
church has become. They just don't see Jesus
32:32
in it. And I think if I can speak for myself
32:35
here, I see this from churches
32:38
across the political spectrum. I don't want to just
32:42
say, um, it's one side or the other. I think we'd both agree
32:45
that it's, um, you know, there can be churches
32:48
of all stripes maintaining this, and I
32:51
think the recourse or the response those
32:54
churches would say is like, look how engaged people are.
32:57
>> Loren: Um, look how committed people are to
33:00
these issues.
33:01
>> Loren: There's really, you know, we're rallying people together.
33:04
There's an energy, there's an engagement, especially of
33:07
young people. Why do you all not, like, maybe
33:10
that's not the right word, but why do you see, like, as the
33:12
challenges in this kind of
33:15
method?
33:15
>> Loren: Uh.
33:18
>> Dwight Schiley: Well, it's a great question, and I think we're in a
33:21
moment right now where in some ways, it's some
33:24
of the last gasps of Christendom, where
33:26
we have these church institutions, and we feel like
33:29
if the primary job is to get
33:32
people to participate and affiliate and
33:35
participate and be energized in the
33:38
institutions, but again, along the
33:40
way, we've lost. What does it mean to follow Jesus
33:43
faithfully, holistically, in daily
33:45
life as a community? And
33:48
so the secular agendas,
33:50
and you're absolutely right, these are on both sides of the
33:53
political spectrum. Um, uh, they're forms
33:56
of idolatry that can actually creep in. And you can say,
33:59
you look at the mainline. When
34:02
mainline churches starting in the sixties
34:05
began to lose their cultural centrality and importance
34:08
and began to decline, the turn was
34:11
often toward, well, we can be relevant if we either
34:14
embrace a kind of therapeutic catering
34:17
to individual self realization,
34:20
or a kind of often secularized
34:22
political activism. And on the right, you can
34:25
see there was the rise of christian nationalism is
34:28
another version of
34:31
this. But all of that is a
34:33
distraction from what it means to really follow
34:36
Jesus in a countercultural
34:39
way in the cultural moment that we find ourselves in
34:42
right now, which is the core work. I mean,
34:44
deepening our identity as disciples and as
34:48
communities of disciples in a
34:50
cultural context that has rejected
34:53
Christianity, um, is hard
34:56
work. It's not easy work. It's
34:58
difficult, ambiguous work that requires a lot of
35:01
careful discernment and a lot of practice. That is actually what
35:04
the church needs to be focused on. So solving
35:07
the institutional problem, getting people engaged,
35:10
is not solving the real underlying issue.
35:14
>> Loren: Yeah, tessa?
35:16
>> Loren: Uh, obviously there's going to be some times where
35:19
church is going to feel compelled to
35:22
act out or speak out on some social
35:25
issues, I imagine, because
35:27
of believing it to be a faithful response. And
35:30
I believe that there are times.
35:33
Have you all given thought to when and where and how that
35:36
might be appropriate?
35:40
>> Loren: Hmm. Mhm.
35:42
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: That's a tough question. And that's something, that's a
35:45
question that I know every church has to wrestle with at some
35:48
point. Um, it's not something that
35:51
we particularly address in the book.
35:52
Um, and I will just
35:55
say personally, that that is something that I wonder about
35:58
myself, uh, as a faithful
36:00
follower of Jesus and also as somebody who has a leadership
36:03
platform. At what point do you, at what
36:06
point are you prompted to take a stand on
36:09
something. Um, the world right now,
36:11
uh, I lead the dwelling in the word
36:14
webcast every week, uh, through faith lead, which is the
36:17
scripture meditation webcast. And even just this
36:20
week we were talking about various sides of the
36:23
conflict in Gaza and all the pastors had a different
36:26
opinion. Here's what I will say.
36:29
I think the ability to speak to each other across difference
36:32
matters. So this doesn't really address the pulpit question, but
36:35
what this addresses is just our ability to talk to each
36:37
other and to see our shared humanity
36:40
and to really recognize that there are people that we love on
36:43
various sides of these conflicts.
36:46
I think that is the gift that the church can give to the world.
36:49
So, a little bit different than what you asked, but
36:52
that's just what I've been wrestling with on a similar
36:55
vein.
36:55
>> Loren: And Dwight, as I asked that question, I'm looking at my notes of the
36:58
listen, act share model and I'm
37:01
wondering how important that
37:03
listen part can be. I
37:06
think there's so much this cultural pressure to always say
37:09
something or do something immediately.
37:12
>> Loren: Talk about that.
37:15
>> Dwight Schiley: Yeah, exactly. Um, I think one of
37:17
the words that we use in the book and that I
37:20
think is worth pausing on is the word energy.
37:24
What is the source of our energy?
37:26
Um, and I think for
37:29
congregations, that source of energy should be the Holy
37:31
Spirit. Um, and
37:36
so I think we need to be very discerning
37:39
around adopting, um,
37:43
or embracing kind of sources of energy that
37:46
may come from other places. Now certainly the Holy
37:49
Spirit can lead us to be energized to
37:52
address injustice, um, to
37:55
engage in social, um, reform
37:58
and challenge social structures. I mean, that's absolutely part
38:00
of what it means to follow Jesus. Um.
38:03
>> Loren: Mhm.
38:04
>> Dwight Schiley: But the listen, act, share process
38:07
is helpful because it begins with let's
38:09
really listen both to scripture and to each other,
38:12
and discern and community, and then let's listen to neighbors.
38:15
I think one of the challenges in the church losing its
38:18
credibility with people in our context today is
38:21
that it's most often led with speaking
38:25
rather than, uh, with deep listening. And
38:27
so when you begin with deep empathetic
38:30
listening without other agendas, and then really just
38:33
to carefully hold
38:36
someone's story and receive it
38:39
and then discern, okay, well, where is this leading me? I'm
38:42
not going to try to fix this person. I'm not going to try to
38:44
come up with some grand scheme to manipulate them. I'm just
38:47
going to say, well, Holy Spirit, where are you leading me next?
38:50
In the same way that again, Paul and his companions were
38:53
led to this encounter with Lydia and her
38:56
companions and friends outside the gate
38:59
of Philippi, down by the river where
39:02
they had this exchange. And then Lydia's
39:05
the one who says, well, you need to come and stay at my
39:08
house, and invites them in, and then ends up
39:11
starting a church in her home and leading
39:14
it, and that becomes the philippian church. And
39:17
they move on after a little while. Um,
39:20
and so the agency of our
39:22
neighbors is really important in this process,
39:26
together with the agency of God, not just us kind of
39:29
acting on our neighbors, but really trying
39:31
to listen and then do small
39:34
experiments that are about deeper relationship.
39:38
>> Loren: Yeah, I really appreciate that. I'm thinking.
39:41
>> Loren: But I'm thinking about, like,
39:44
I feel.
39:45
>> Loren: Like part of the challenge is culturally, like,
39:48
at least in american culture, there's this idea of, like, everything has to
39:50
be a big swing. Like, small bets.
39:54
You're not allowed to do small bets anymore. Like, everything's got to be.
39:56
Just be a big. A big. Go for it.
39:59
>> Loren: Go for the gusto,
40:00
uh, which makes it
40:03
challenging.
40:04
>> Loren: I want to. I want to just take a minute here, because I know we're running out of time. I
40:07
want to take a minute to talk about just
40:10
the tips and tools for churches. And maybe
40:13
if I could just say something like the workbook,
40:16
um, we did at a church I was a
40:19
part of. I led the dwelling in the word.
40:22
>> Loren: Um, on Sunday mornings.
40:25
>> Loren: And it was powerful. It was really
40:27
powerful. And I was amazed at
40:30
how just praying
40:33
and listening, like these simple
40:36
things, how
40:39
powerful it was. Uh, tessa, you obviously do this on
40:42
a daily basis or a weekly basis, it sounds like. So, anything you want to
40:45
say more about some, uh, of the tools you all
40:47
offer?
40:50
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Yeah, well, I wanted to share that this
40:53
workbook actually came first. It came out of the
40:56
experimentation we were doing. The book we wrote
40:58
came second to sort of provide the foundation for
41:01
why we do what we do. So I
41:04
just want to share that with your listeners. That's the way that this evolved.
41:07
So the workbook was first,
41:10
and we saw the fruit,
41:13
uh, in dwelling in the word and many of the other. There's
41:15
tons of practices, as you know, because you've seen this. The
41:18
fruit of the practices was what really got us so
41:21
excited that, hey, we're onto something. The spirit is at work
41:24
here. Congregations are being changed.
41:27
Uh, it was extraordinary. And so we thought, we want to
41:30
share this, and then we want to share why
41:33
we took the direction we did and provide some undergirding
41:36
for that. So, um, can I plug.
41:38
Can I plug the work a little more here? Um, because I wanted
41:41
to let people know that they can actually preview it on
41:44
faith lead's website. And I'll make sure that you get the
41:47
URL for this, Lauren, so that you can share it with your listeners.
41:51
Uh, and I also think that they can
41:54
look at a complimentary chapter of the book as well.
41:57
So it's a great. The book
41:59
and the workbook together, it's sort of a complete package. And
42:02
the workbook is so practical, as Dwight has said
42:05
repeatedly. And he's right, these are simple
42:08
spirit led practices that can be adapted for
42:11
any context. We have complete instructions in there, and they
42:14
bear fruit because the spirit is at work through them.
42:17
>> Loren: And I just, like, again, I feel like I need to get, like, a commission
42:20
on this book from how much I'm plugging it. But,
42:23
like. Like, I
42:26
just want to say, like, as a parent, I have young kids, I have
42:29
a job. My wife works full time. I have a lot going on.
42:32
And I think about, like, I don't need another, like,
42:35
chapter to read for.
42:36
>> Loren: A book group, for church.
42:39
>> Loren: Like, I don't need more to do.
42:43
This kind of thing, I think, is so powerful.
42:46
Um, because it's a. It's not something I have to
42:48
do. Uh, it goes back to a point you all have
42:51
made about just being, um. So,
42:54
again, I want to highly recommend the book. Leading faithful
42:57
innovation, following God into
43:00
a hopeful future. Uh, and also the workbook.
43:03
Tessa, you want to plug the workbook again?
43:06
What's the title?
43:07
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Yeah, the workbook is called,
43:10
uh, it's the faithful innovation leader companion,
43:13
and it is available on faithlead.org.
43:16
And we'll make sure that you all have the URL so that you can check that
43:18
out, get a preview, sign up.
43:20
>> Loren: Awesome. Well, let's take a quick break and come back with some closing
43:23
questions.
43:27
All right, we're back with Tessa and
43:29
Dwight. So thanks so much for y'all's time.
43:32
Appreciate y'all hanging with me and having this conversation.
43:35
And frankly, I'm glad I got to have this conversation, because I think I
43:38
read this book six, nine months ago. Uh, and it was
43:41
like, I need to try to get this to happen. So, as you can all
43:44
can tell, fan of the book, fan of the
43:47
process here. So some closing questions y'all can
43:50
take as seriously or not as you'd like to. Dwight, you
43:53
may remember these before, so you're welcome to pass if you. If
43:56
you don't want to give another answer. So, Tessa, I guess I'll start with
43:58
you. Tessa, if you're pope for a day.
44:00
>> Loren: All right, what do you want to do? With that day.
44:05
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Well, and I was. This question was interesting to me, and I'm going to
44:08
assume that by pope, you mean the head of the global church. Let's
44:11
go with that. Okay. So what
44:14
I would do is I would want to help all
44:17
of the different expressions and denominations see
44:20
what truly unites us as the people of
44:22
God. I think that ecumenism
44:25
is the future of the church. And
44:28
so I loved how you described yourself. I think
44:31
all three of us here, uh, on this podcast today
44:34
have various backgrounds, and we work in
44:36
denominations that are a little bit different than our
44:38
histories. I think that
44:41
in the future, we, as the people of God, are going to be defined
44:44
more by what we have in common than by what separates us.
44:47
So I would work very hard on that. I don't know if I could get
44:50
much done in a day. But, hey, unity is a powerful
44:52
witness to the world, and the world needs that. So that's what I would
44:55
try to do.
44:56
>> Loren: Yeah.
44:56
>> Loren: Boy, is that even possible? More in common than
45:00
Dwight. Anything to add there?
45:05
>> Dwight Schiley: Yeah, I think, um, for me, it would be. I
45:07
would try to help the church and church
45:10
leaders focus on the core
45:13
challenge of learning how to
45:16
follow Jesus and the identity of being
45:19
disciples. And that
45:22
is the core thing, and it's
45:25
not always the core thing of how our churches spend their time. Our leaders
45:28
spend their time.
45:29
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
45:31
>> Loren: A theologian or historical figure you want to meet
45:34
or bring back to life.
45:36
>> Loren: Cassa.
45:38
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: For me, it's Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I went to
45:41
Berlin last summer. I studied at the Bonhoeffer house, and
45:44
I would want to hear from him directly about what it was
45:47
like to give up his position in New York and go back to
45:49
Germany. What would end up being the last time
45:53
he knew. Right. He knew that he might not survive, but he did it anyway.
45:56
And he actually did it because he cared so much about God's
45:59
church.
46:00
>> Loren: Yeah, Dwight.
46:02
>> Dwight Schiley: So our family was in Italy in
46:05
march of this year, and we had a chance to visit
46:07
Assisi, where I'd never been before.
46:11
Um, and I would love to
46:14
meet St. Francis and
46:16
to have the spirit of
46:19
simplicity that Francis brought in a
46:21
time where there were a lot of distractions
46:25
for the church into this moment, because we have
46:28
so many distractions. And Francis is
46:31
someone who had a pure,
46:33
beautiful, pure vision,
46:35
um, of following Jesus in
46:38
complex times.
46:40
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Um.
46:42
>> Loren: Let's do this. Tessa, you answer this. What do you think history
46:45
will remember from our current place in time?
46:50
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: I love this question. And, Loren, I think we are on the
46:53
cusp of something really new. I feel like we are on the cusp
46:56
of maybe a second reformation. Um, I know there's been
46:59
many reformations in between, but something really big
47:02
we know, and we talk about this in the book, that the church as it currently
47:05
exists, is failing to connect with people. And we know that
47:08
change needs to and is happening. So right
47:11
now, I think the church is at a stage where we should be listening to the
47:14
spirit and looking for wisdom from the past,
47:16
looking for wisdom from the early church.
47:19
And I think we're going to look back and see that the people who are at the
47:22
forefront of this movement were the people who were looking at
47:25
how spiritual formation actually works, how we
47:28
actually make disciples, how we actually follow the way of
47:31
Jesus, how we actually live as Jesus
47:34
wants us to live, and then the
47:37
people who are taking that and making their churches
47:39
incubators of that work. So I think we're going to look
47:42
back, see that this season of the church's history
47:45
was a formative point, and we're going to look totally different in the
47:48
future, but different in a way that we are
47:51
returning to God's mission.
47:53
>> Loren: Yeah, I like that.
47:53
>> Loren: I like that Dwight hopes for the future of
47:56
Christianity.
47:57
>> Loren: M well, if
48:00
you look at what's.
48:01
>> Dwight Schiley: Happening in the global majority church,
48:04
there is so much amazing life
48:07
and vitality and growth and
48:10
possibility. And I think that, to me,
48:12
is very hopeful to see
48:15
how even as in the west,
48:18
as we still kind of get
48:21
ourselves out from underneath the weight
48:24
of Christendom and of a culture
48:27
that seeks the good without God, that the
48:29
Holy Spirit, um, is renewing
48:32
the church, uh, in. In the great majority of
48:35
the world, in cultures that are not westernized.
48:38
And we have so much to learn from that.
48:42
>> Loren: Yeah. Right. Especially, like, how to. How to be christian without
48:45
being western. Right. Like, if anything, we can
48:48
learn that.
48:51
>> Loren: Where can share, if you all would.
48:54
>> Loren: Where can people can connect with you and, uh, connect with
48:57
the book? Or I guess. I guess, Tessa, you've already plugged that. So if, uh,
49:00
you all want to share, like, how we can connect with you. You
49:03
all.
49:03
>> Loren: Dwight, start.
49:06
>> Dwight Schiley: Yeah, um, so, again, faithfully.org dot. There's a
49:09
lot of, um, things there, and my
49:12
own personal website is dwightshiely.com
49:14
dot. Uh, that last name is spelled z
49:18
s c h e I l e.
49:21
>> Loren: Great, Tessa.
49:25
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: I'll point everybody to faithlead.org as well. And
49:28
I've actually got a piece on there about Lydia, uh, from
49:31
acts that accompanies our book. So, uh, there's a few articles
49:34
on there. I've even got one about, uh, my trip to Berlin.
49:37
It's a Dietrich Bonhoeffer article, but my personal
49:39
website is practicesforlife.org
49:42
dot, and I would love to hear from some of your
49:45
listeners. So if you want to come find me and send me a note,
49:48
I'd love to talk with you.
49:49
>> Loren: Yeah, well, thank you all so much for hanging with
49:52
me and, uh, engaging in this
49:54
conversation. Really appreciate the book and hope it's
49:57
helpful to churches and leaders across the
50:00
country and frankly, across the world. So I always leave folks with
50:03
a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
50:07
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the future Christian podcast.
50:10
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
50:13
visit future christian.com.
50:16
One more thing before you go, do us a favor
50:19
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50:22
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50:30
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
50:33
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provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
50:42
and go in peace.