Latest / Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence / Polyvagal Theory Is Being Challenged… What Play Therapists Need to Know

Transcript

Polyvagal Theory Is Being Challenged… What Play Therapists Need to Know · Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence

• 0:02
  Welcome to Next Level Play Therapy, a weekly podcast dedicated to supporting the next generation of child and adolescent therapists to provide exceptional play therapy services.
• 0:14
  We'll explore all things play therapy to elevate your work with children and adolescents using the therapeutic powers of play.
• 0:23
  I'll discuss practical tips and ideas so you can provide a transformative experience for your young clients and make a real difference in their lives.
• 0:33
  So get ready to take your play therapy skills to the next level and make a lasting impact in the lives of children, adolescents, and families.
• 0:46
  There we go.
• 0:48
  There we go.
• 0:50
  Little technical difficulties here.
• 0:52
  Welcome to this week's episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 0:56
  And this week we're gonna tackle the debate about polyvagal theory.
• 1:01
  And if you have heard, then you're probably aware some of the components of polyvagal theory are being disputed by s- n- neuroscientists and researchers in the field.
• 1:19
  So s- polyvagal theory, for those of you who may not be aware, was developed by Stephen Porges, and there were some main components of polyvagal theory that some of which we're finding are still true, and some of which are once again, apparently this has been an ongoing debate, once again, being debated.
• 1:44
  And so I actually found out about this probably a couple of months back, just by scrolling on social media.
• 1:54
  And I, I, you know, there's the click bait, is it, is polyvagal dead or something like debunked?
• 2:01
  And I, so I started looking to it a little more deeply.
• 2:05
  In fact, once I realized there were some pretty serious critiques about it, I thought to myself, "Oh my gosh, am I explaining this accurately?
• 2:16
  Or am I just kind of saying what everybody else is saying and trusting that it's true?" Which made me feel really uncomfortable.
• 2:24
  So I actually got some consultation.
• 2:28
  I joined, joined a couple of, uh, one group with a really awesome neuroscientist that I've consulted with, uh, in fact last week just to make sure that I'm understanding things.
• 2:42
  And I, I think because it's so widely used in the play therapy arena, I thought it would be useful to talk about it and start a conversation about it in our play therapy community.
• 2:57
  So just full disclosure ahead of time, I do not consider myself to be an expert in this area of neuroscience and affective or cognitive neuroscience, which is why I consulted with the researcher.
• 3:13
  Um, I do think it's important to make sure that what we are using is, is current, because what we know about science is that it evolves over time.
• 3:29
  Even, even models, you know, play therapy models, they evolve over time.
• 3:35
  And so to me, that's why it's important to keep up with the latest understanding of what's going on and making sure we're using that effectively and accurately in the work that we're doing.
• 3:50
  And I think, I think one of the challenges that happens is because we're clinicians and practitioners, not theorists or researchers, sometimes the, um, neuroscience things can be really, I call it really science-y and it's kind of hard to make sense.
• 4:13
  It's not my area of expertise.
• 4:16
  I had to actually look up what phylogenic means because that's part of part of the debate, which I found really interesting information about that.
• 4:26
  Um, and I thought, "Well, I'm, let's, let's ... I think we need to have conversations about it.
• 4:33
  " So the, with the information that I'm going to present today is just my understanding of the debate, what I've found out by doing some research.
• 4:48
  In the description, I posted some information, uh, where you can find Steven Porges' response to Grossman and the 39 other neuroscientists who are critiquing polyvagal theory.
• 5:08
  I, I posted the Grossman article.
• 5:11
  Those are, those were post- those were published this year.
• 5:16
  So it's a fairly recent debate.
• 5:21
  However, what I also found out is it's been disputed for several years now.
• 5:27
  And I also posted in there if you're on Substack, which is my new, really nerdy place to go to, I found some really interesting, um, articles, one of which is Anna Lund.
• 5:43
  I joined her group as well.
• 5:45
  I follow and consult with Dr. Bertha McDonald.
• 5:49
  She's an affective and co- cognitive neuroscientist.
• 5:53
  So her information is really good.
• 5:55
  Her, her resources are amazing.
• 5:59
  So there are resources out there that I wanna point you to, to help you do your own research and form your own opinions.
• 6:08
  I do think we need to have a conversation about it because there are some very valid points that have been made.
• 6:16
  In fact, if I'm being completely honest, which I am right now, there were some things about polyvagal, even that whole idea of the BodyKeep score that never really sat well with me, but the experts in the field were saying these things and I, I didn't have access to some of the other resources I now have access to, to kind of get a more balanced understanding of it.
• 6:44
  So that whole idea of the body- BodyKeep score, that's a whole other conversation, um, and where stom- trauma is actually stored, that's a whole other conversation, which I, I will be talking about in later episodes.
• 7:01
  Um, and so let's, let's get down to first, what are the main components?
• 7:07
  And this is just a really simplified summary.
• 7:12
  Um, and then as play therapists, h- w- what are we gonna do about this?
• 7:19
  Like, what, how are we gonna use the information?
• 7:21
  Are we gonna make some adjustments?
• 7:23
  All the things.
• 7:25
  So the, the first thing is polyvagal theory looks at the autonomic response systems in a hierarchical way, meaning according to polyvagal theory, according to Stephen Porges, there's an evolutionary development of the nervous system, beginning with the dorsal vagal complex, which is the immobilization for freezing and disconnecting under extreme threat.
• 8:00
  If there appears to n- be no other avenue for safety, the theory is that that's when we go into dorsal vagal shutdown.
• 8:12
  And the, the second in the evolutionary process of development was the sympathetic nervous system, and that system mobilizes for fight or flight.
• 8:24
  And then, and then the, the highest or the most recent evolutionary development is the development of the ventral vagal complex or the social engagement system, which calms and connects supporting safety and the ability for that pro- social behavior.
• 8:46
  So the ventral vagal and the dorsal vagal are both part of the parasympathetic system.
• 8:54
  And according to Stephen Porges, they kind of developed in an evolutionary stage in different ways.
• 9:02
  The other concept that he developed is this idea or this concept of neuroception, and he called them the neuroception circuits.
• 9:11
  So these are the subconscious, out of awareness of conscious thought that is constantly assessing for threat all the time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, and we're not consciously aware of it, and it is the, our, our brain and body's way of keeping us safe and per- make sureing, make sure that we're surviving.
• 9:41
  So, um, and it's assessing danger and threat from the en- environment, and when it assesses threat, it will activate those cir- circuits to ensure survival.
• 9:56
  And then the, the other concept is this idea of co-regulation, which has been around way before Stephen Borges, um, but hi- part of his theory is that the ability to calm one's nervous system is through those safe social connections, and that's viewed as a biological necessity.
• 10:20
  And I have heard him say in trainings talking about five cranial nerves that are part of that vagal system for the eyes and the ears and the mouth, and those are, um, creating either cues of safety or not cuing safety.
• 10:41
  And then the, the other thing that is a component of poly- polyvagal theory is the vagus nerve branches.
• 10:50
  So Stephen Porges, um, proposed that there are two branches of the vagus system.
• 10:58
  There's the newer myelinated ventral vagus system and the older unmyeliated dorsal vagus, and that according to Stephen Porges in polyvagal theory, these serve two very different responses.
• 11:14
  So that's kind of a really, really, really simplified, um, version of the, of the polyvagal theory.
• 11:27
  And so I just realized I forgot to invite people to comment post, post where you're from if you're watching.
• 11:36
  We're talking about the polyvagal debate, so polyvagal theory is being challenged yet again, and what play therapists need to know.
• 11:48
  So I just went over some of the main components of polyvagal theory, and if you're joining live, I would love to know who's here.
• 11:58
  Feel free to post your name in the comments.
• 12:01
  What population do you work with?
• 12:02
  Are you a play therapist or another type of therapist or, or maybe you're a researcher and you can explain this way better than me.
• 12:11
  Um, so post that in the comments if you're watching on the replay, I'd still love to hear from you.
• 12:19
  What are your thoughts?
• 12:21
  What is your understanding about this, this debate about whether or not polyvagal theory is, to quote the words of Grossman and his colleagues, tenable.
• 12:36
  And if you're listening on the podcast, feel free to send me an email.
• 12:40
  Um, if you find the information useful, please feel free to like and share so it gets out to more people.
• 12:48
  I do think this is a, a conversation we need to be having.
• 12:52
  So what's disputed?
• 12:54
  What's disputed is the re- one, one thing is the really fancy term, phylogenic.
• 13:00
  So for those of you like myself who didn't know what po- phylogenic means or you, or more like me, I have to keep looking it up.
• 13:10
  Um, phylogenics is the study of evolutionary relationships among biological entities like species, individuals, or, or genes using DNA, RNA, and morphological data to build phylogenic trees.
• 13:29
  That definition is courtesy of Dr. Google, where I get really good summaries sometimes, and then I have to adjust as needed.
• 13:38
  So what is the critique about, about that?
• 13:42
  So the critique is, um, has to do with the evolutionary theory and history of the vagus nerve, specifically that myelogen- uh, myelinated pathways are exclusive only to mammals or they evolve uniquely.
• 14:01
  And one of the criticisms that I've heard about this, um, from a couple of experts is that the, um, that's not really true in that even, um, that there are some species that do have those myelinated vagal pathways.
• 14:25
  Um, I even heard one expert say that reptiles do have a social engagement circuit, which I found interesting.
• 14:34
  I have no idea if that's true, that's what the expert says.
• 14:37
  I found that interesting, and there will probably be a time when I explore that further and go down that rabbit hole, but it is not today.
• 14:47
  So the other thing that's being disputed is that, uh, vagus nerve and face connection, and so critics argue that the evidence is weak for the claim that newer vagus nerves directly manages that ventral vagal system for social engagement, um, stating that the facial expressions are more directly linked to other nerves and the, and the amygdala.
• 15:18
  So in a nutshell, what I've heard pretty consistently is that there's a tendency to oversimplify or state things that are not supported by research, and, um, that's, that's mostly where the critiques are coming from, and the way that it's being explained, especially the vagus nerve system, is oversimplified and not really accurate.
• 15:49
  So the other, the other critique that's being made is that many neuroscientists argue that the theory, while clinically popular, and it is very popular in the, I would say for, for tho- this is kind of my, my, how I've made meaning of it so far is how it seems to me.
• 16:13
  What, what seems to be happening t- is that the, the experts and the neuroscientists and the researchers are the ones raising the alarm about polyvagal inaccuracies and those of us in the clinical where we take theory and we have to apply it because we're not focused on the sciencey things.
• 16:36
  We are focused on how do I take that science and use it to help my clients.
• 16:42
  So we're the kind of practical application arm of things.
• 16:47
  And I, this is one of the things that I talked with Dr.
• 16:49
  McDonald about is, um, it seems like the, the neur- in the science, neuroscientists, it's so complicated and, and they know so much that it sometimes can feel overwhelming or it doesn't always make sense.
• 17:05
  So we look for people who can help us break things down and make sense of them, which I think is one of the things that we found useful about, um, polyvagal theory, is it helped to break things down and, um, help us understand things in a way that we kind of knew were useful, but we didn't really understand the whole thing.
• 17:33
  And I'm gonna talk a little bit about what's still true.
• 17:36
  I'll talk about that next.
• 17:38
  But I think what's happened is in the clinical arena in the, in the therapy field, we've kind of relied on information that apparently may not be accurate in its entirety.
• 17:55
  And so, um, what the researcher's saying is polyvagal theory lacks direct empirical evidence to support its claim, including the role of the vagus nerve system, which serves to transmit information, um, to other nerves and the amygdala.
• 18:17
  So it, it's not, it, its role is mostly to be the highway to transport the information, and according to the, the expert's critiquing polyvagal theory is that they're, they're saying the polyvagal of the, um, vagus nerve system, ve- ventral vagal is not making this happen.
• 18:40
  What it's doing is it's transmitting the information to those parts of the brain and body that need the information.
• 18:48
  And so the, the, the f- the other claim that their critique that the, um, Grossman and his 39 other colleagues are making has to do with, again, a lot of the unproven anatomical and hierarchical claims.
• 19:10
  And so some critics are arguing that the theory simplifies or misrepresents a complex integrated functioning of the autonomic nervous system and the neuroanatomy is hierarchical with three branches.
• 19:26
  And I've heard that one pretty consistently across all of the critiques.
• 19:32
  And so, um, there are some things about polyvagal that are still true and they predate polyvagal theory.
• 19:42
  These are things that were true, uh, prior to poly- um, Stephen Porges developing polyvagal theory and they're still usable.
• 19:54
  And even the experts, um, critiquing polyvagal theory will say these are true as well.
• 20:01
  So for us as play therapists, and those of us in the community, these, regardless of the critique, these are s- are agreed upon by all of the experts, including Steven Porges, from my understanding.
• 20:18
  So here's what's still agreed upon is that the, um, there is an autonomic hierarchy, meaning many researchers acknowledge that the stress response will often follow a hierarchical pattern, starting So we, we have the social engagement system if there's threat, kind of moving to fight or flight, and lastly, shut down, or we start in shutdown, or we have to work our way back up, but what they're s- what they're critiquing is, it's not a stick, a very strict, like it's only can go in this direction from the, like, hierarchical, and it won't go outside that hierarchical response.
• 21:05
  What they're ... And the reason they're saying, um, that's not true because the, our whole nervous system is in brain and all of the neuropathways are very complex.
• 21:18
  And so, um, and there's a predictive nature to the brain that sets in motion and, um, activates energy where energy needs to go based on its prediction of what needs to happen.
• 21:39
  So that whole, um, fight, flight, freeze, all that's still true, the only thing that's different is it doesn't have to be in a specific order.
• 21:51
  Also, the connection between the mind and the body exists and using some of those somatic strategies that we've been using, like breathing techniques and regulating heart rate, heart rate to slow down and calm the nervous system, calm the brain, all of those are still true, which for us, I feel like as play therapists, these are the main strategies we were using.
• 22:21
  We were using a sp- um, for children whose, who were dysregulated, their nervous system was highly activated, we were using these strategies and they were working, and they, they're still gonna work, and, um, the, the research supports that they will work.
• 22:42
  So that, that ... The ... A lot of the strategies I feel like that we were using are still important.
• 22:51
  So these are, these are still agreed upon.
• 22:54
  Even the experts agree these are true.
• 22:58
  And what's also true, agreed upon with all of the experts is safety's role in our health and mental health.
• 23:09
  The ... So there's an agreement that feelings of safety and social connectedness are really vital for our physical and social emotional health.
• 23:21
  So those things are all very true.
• 23:25
  One of the things that I have, um, found out, which to me, as a clinician is really, really useful, is really understanding the role of the brain and its role in activating the nervous system.
• 23:44
  So when we're talking about nervous system activation, we can't really leave out the role of that predictive job of the brain to take in all this information that it's getting all the time, and it's making sense of it.
• 24:04
  It uses past experiences, which is where the trauma comes in, to wreak a little havoc in this process, and, um, to make sense of what needs to happen, and then the brain will send out those signals about the response that's needed.
• 24:25
  And so I think for me, one of the main takeaways that I've learned about this is we really need to make sure that we're understanding the role of the brain and the role of thoughts that are activating different response.
• 24:43
  So our belief systems and how those belief systems came to be, and we can still use a lot of those somatic strategies that we were using, but also we wanna make sure we're helping to target some of those belief systems.
• 25:03
  So, uh, so interestingly enough, I've been ... I'm gonna digress a little bit and then I'll Uh, to me, this kind of goes to how are we applying it in the play therapy field and how are we explaining things to parents?
• 25:18
  So, so one of the ways that I explain this to parents is that our, our brain is, our, our brain is wired to keep us alive, and so it is gonna, it is gonna make sense of things and activate responses in order to keep us alive.
• 25:39
  And what happens sometimes is that the, the meaning we make of something is going to activate that threat response, and it's based on the meaning that we've made of something.
• 25:52
  Also, I would say because we work with children, we're looking at the development of that neurosystem and of the meaning that children are making, we're looking at that through a developmental lens, children's nervous system, neuropathways, emotion regulation, circuitry, those are all in development and that, that co-regulation with, with their caregivers, adults, parents, I would include even teachers and, you know, other, like maybe daycare providers, all of children need those adults in their lives to be able to h- help do that co-regulation.
• 26:37
  And the way I explain it to parents a lot of times is I kind of go through what I just went through and talk about children's developing nervous system, like their neuro pathways are developing and that's gonna be influenced by their experiences with their caregivers.
• 26:55
  So when they get distressed and upset, then they're gonna have that heightened response because they've made, made meaning of it somehow in their mind and our ability to stay regulated through that process with them, even if we're a little kind of aroused a little bit, a little activated, the more we can manage that and regulate ourselves effectively as the caregivers, then it's kind of like kids This is a really simplified way of saying it.
• 27:31
  It's kind of like they're borrowing or using our regulated state to get to a more regulated state.
• 27:38
  And I frequently use the term regulated rather than calm because the idea is that's what we, we want.
• 27:45
  It ... We want them to get to a more regulated state where they're able to engage more and we use more effective behavior and help to facilitate a shift in their nervous system state that's gonna help them do the things that they need to be doing.
• 28:07
  So that's kinda how I explain it to parents because what I really wanna do is help parents understand that they have a vital role in helping their children who get dysregulated a lot and are having these big, big behaviors that aren't making sense and are overwhelming parents.
• 28:28
  So helping parents understand it from that standpoint is important and then teaching them some strategies.
• 28:36
  And most of us, I think in the play therapy arena, that's, those are all the parts of polyvagal theory that are still true.
• 28:44
  And, um, we can still use those and we can still teach some, some breathing and all of those things and, um, activity that gets out some of that extra energy that they're experiencing, some of that extra, maybe some of that aggressive energy and, and, and get their systems to regulate a little bit more.
• 29:10
  Interestingly enough, I've been taking ... Uh, it's been a long ... I, I ... Anyway, I've had this debate with myself.
• 29:17
  Do I do EMDR or do I not do EMDR?
• 29:20
  Anyways, the stars aligned, and I found some really awesome trainers for EMDR with playful EMDR shout out to Annie Monaco and Anne Beckley Forrest.
• 29:31
  I really, really like them and their team.
• 29:33
  And as I've been learning this simultaneous to updating with polyvagal system or vagal theory and some of the things that we've been taught, including, um, the body, trauma is stored in the body, which is not true, I found out, but that's another discussion.
• 29:54
  Um, one of the things that I really like about EMDR is that idea of, you We're looking at emotions.
• 30:01
  We're looking at belief systems.
• 30:03
  And specifically belief systems, what does that mean about me?
• 30:08
  Right?
• 30:08
  So we can get to some of that shame and guilt and all the things, all the emotions that are tied to those belief systems that are gonna activate a dysregulated state.
• 30:22
  And where are we feeling that in the body?
• 30:25
  And then we can target it all those different ways.
• 30:28
  Now, EMDR has a specific way of doing that.
• 30:32
  And I would say most of the trauma models, the trauma model that I was taught years ago, which most people don't even know about it.
• 30:41
  It's a good one though.
• 30:43
  Um, all had those same components to it.
• 30:48
  So, uh, there are things about polyvagal theory that we can, um, continue to use.
• 30:58
  I think the important thing as play therapists is really keeping up to date with what's currently accurate and doing some research ourselves and getting trusted sources to find out what, what the research is, is letting us know these days so that we can keep up because that's, that's what theory does.
• 31:23
  We're always updating e- apparently even EMDRs updating their way of thinking about things, which I think is awesome.
• 31:31
  So that is it for today.
• 31:34
  Let me do a quick recap that theories evolve as more information is learned.
• 31:40
  And so we wanna keep up with that.
• 31:43
  Um, the, the debate can be healthy and useful to kind of keep us up to date and keeping us sharp.
• 31:54
  I don't, I mean, respectful debate is good.
• 31:57
  Healthy debate and we can still use that information in our play therapy work.
• 32:06
  And that the basic strategies that most play therapists we're using are still true.
• 32:13
  Um, that we still are looking at co-regulation, we're still looking at that nervous system response, we're adding that idea of maybe understanding role of the brain in there and, and that it's a very complicated system of very, and various factors that will influence the response because people are unique, their experiences are unique, and how that gets set up in their, in their brain and in their neuro pathways is unique.
• 32:52
  So that is it for today.
• 32:54
  Um, if you're interested, I didn't talk much about this because, um, but I do have a... If you're interested in ha- learning about using a trauma model to use in play therapy, I am doing another training again on healing trauma through play therapy, a neuroscience and attachment approach.
• 33:17
  I, I am updating my training to include this latest research that I've been finding.
• 33:25
  And so basically, we're kind of going over the neuroscience and attachment using that case conceptualization lens and then walking through a s- the stages of play therapy using a framework for working with children who've experienced trauma.
• 33:47
  So you know what to do, when to do it, and why you're doing it, and then in each stage of the play therapy process, because I think having that framework to know what to do, when to do, and why you're doing it, and how to do it, is really, really important.
• 34:03
  And then we'll also talk about working with caregivers, how you're making sense of play therapy sessions, and some strategies, play therapy activities that you can use.
• 34:16
  So if you're interested in, um, that training, healing trauma through play therapy, a neuroscience and attachment approach, that's coming up in June on June 6th.
• 34:28
  It'll be in person in St. George, Utah.
• 34:31
  There's a virtual online version.
• 34:33
  You can attend virtually as well, and there will be a recorded version.
• 34:38
  I wanna update the rec- um, have that available.
• 34:42
  So if you're interested, pop over to my website at rhplaytherapytraining.com.
• 34:48
  That's rhplaytherapytraining.com, renewingheartsplaytherapytraining.com, register today.
• 34:57
  And here's the thing, one of the things that I've decided I want to do, because I, I think it's really important is we ... I have, um, an online membership.
• 35:08
  I have two online memberships.
• 35:10
  One of our Play Therapy Elevation Circle is more having a community of supportive play therapists where you can staff ideas, get support.
• 35:19
  We do a book club in there.
• 35:21
  We do a monthly consultation in there where you can staff your cases, get support.
• 35:26
  We just did a whole amazing consultation about what to do when a child keeps racking your playroom.
• 35:33
  Some really good support about that.
• 35:36
  Um, we'll also do mini trainings in there.
• 35:39
  We have some more things that are coming.
• 35:41
  Just a way to have some support to stay up with the latest information about going on, helping you with your, your cases, supporting each other.
• 35:51
  So when you register for healing trauma through play therapy, uh, neuroscience and attachment approach, when you register for that training, your registration is gonna include 60 days of access at no charge for new members.
• 36:09
  So if you're not already in Play Therapy Elevation Circle, if you take the training, you, you have access to 60 days of ongoing support.
• 36:19
  So now that gives you the ability to take what you've learned.
• 36:22
  Now you're applying it with clients and now you can bring it back and get support from the group about, um, the best way to help your clients.
• 36:31
  So, um, registration is open.
• 36:37
  Early bird price is ending on tomorrow, actually.
• 36:42
  So if you wanna register, definitely, or, uh, register soon.
• 36:46
  And also, if you're interested, I do have some openings in Play Therapy Academy.
• 36:52
  Play Therapy Academy is a much smaller, um, online program where we s- have a, uh, more strategic approach on developing play therapy competency skills, getting feedback, how do you apply your play therapy model through each stage of the play therapy process, um, that So Play Therapy Academy, we do a much deeper dive for skill development and developing competence and confidence so we don't feel like an imposter anymore.
• 37:26
  Elevation Circle, we do some of that as well, more in a supportive way, and that way you can get access to support so you don't feel like you're doing it alone.
• 37:39
  Both of those provide a lot of support.
• 37:41
  If you're interested in Play Therapy Academy, um, feel free to message me.
• 37:47
  I'm happy to answer questions.
• 37:49
  Well, I'm also gonna put some links in the comments to the training, as well as Play Therapy Academy.
• 37:57
  If you're interested in Play Therapy Academy, just schedule a 30 minute video call with me.
• 38:01
  I'll go over it, see if it's a good fit for you, if it's not.
• 38:05
  Maybe Elevation Circle is a good fit for you.
• 38:08
  If neither of them is a good fit for you, then I've had a chance to talk to another play therapist, and that always makes me happy.
• 38:15
  So, um, all righty.
• 38:18
  So that is it for today.
• 38:21
  And I will see you next week.
• 38:23
  Next week, I'm gonna, um, do a case, a case, um, study.
• 38:28
  So fictitious client, of course, but I, I think it's kind of helpful for a play therapist, like how do we take these concepts and apply them in real time and what's our decision making and thinking process?
• 38:41
  So that'll be next week and it, I will see you next time.
• 38:46
  And again, if you found this helpful, please feel free to share it so that more people have access.
• 38:52
  And I will see you next week.
• 38:54
  Bye for now.
• 38:59
  Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 39:04
  I hope you found the discussion valuable and gained new insights and ideas to support your work helping children, adolescents, and families heal.
• 39:13
  If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review.
• 39:19
  Your feedback helps to improve and reach more people who can benefit from this information.
• 39:25
  Remember, play therapy is a powerful tool for healing and growth.
• 39:29
  Whether you're a new play therapist or experienced, I encourage you to continue your learning journey to unlock the potential of play in your own work and relationships.
• 39:40
  If you have any questions or topics, suggestions for future episodes, I'd love to hear from you.
• 39:47
  Connect with me on social media and visit my website at Renewing Parts Play Therapy Training to stay updated on upcoming episodes, trainings, and resources.
• 40:00
  Thank you once again for listening to Next Level Play Therapy.
• 40:04
  Until next time, keep playing, learning, and growing.