Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #575 Jason Flom with Larry DeLisle

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#575 Jason Flom with Larry DeLisle · Wrongful Conviction

0:05
Speaker 1: Hello once again. This is Connor Hall, senior producer for
0:08
Speaker 1: Rafel Conviction, where I'll be offering case updates, behind the
0:12
Speaker 1: scenes info and insights from cases we've covered over the years,
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Speaker 1: and one case that comes to mind is Larry Delisle.
0:21
Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot of emails from folks on the inside,
0:25
Speaker 1: but Larry is probably the most prolific for two reasons.
0:30
Speaker 1: He usually writes to me during holidays or major life events,
0:33
Speaker 1: which gives him plenty of reasons to write. And two,
0:37
Speaker 1: it's just been so many years since we started writing
0:39
Speaker 1: each other. I mean, my son was just a few
0:43
Speaker 1: months old when we met, and he's going on seven now,
0:47
Speaker 1: and that's not too far off from Larry's oldest. Back
0:52
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine when all this happened, he and
0:56
Speaker 1: his wife Sue lost all four of their children one
1:02
Speaker 1: tragic summer evening when it appears that the accelerator and
1:06
Speaker 1: their station wagon jammed and they sailed into the Detroit
1:10
Speaker 1: River and only Larry and Sue survived. Larry was not
1:16
Speaker 1: only accused of the murder of all four of his children,
1:20
Speaker 1: but Sue's attempted murder as well, but she stuck by him.
1:25
Speaker 1: I mean there's video of this conviction where I mean
1:28
Speaker 1: she falls apart. You can see it on the confession
1:32
Speaker 1: tapes on Netflix. And beyond that, even after she moved
1:36
Speaker 1: on to start a new life and got married, I mean,
1:38
Speaker 1: she remained committed to his innocence, which makes what happened
1:43
Speaker 1: at his parole hearing in twenty twenty three so strange. See,
1:49
Speaker 1: after the release of our initial coverage in twenty twenty one,
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Speaker 1: Jason advocated to whomever would listen, and the University of
1:57
Speaker 1: Michigan Innocence Clinic picked up Larry's case prepared for his
2:01
Speaker 1: parole hearing, And I remember talking to Jason right after
2:05
Speaker 1: the hearing, and apparently it had been going really well.
2:09
Speaker 1: I mean, they exposed the false confession, the evidence of
2:13
Speaker 1: the car's accelerator issues that was presented, as well as
2:17
Speaker 1: how the state's expert had corroborated that those issues existed
2:20
Speaker 1: in his initial report, only to then contradict it on
2:24
Speaker 1: the stand. But then, for some reason, after thirty four
2:29
Speaker 1: years of knowing that this was all just a tragic accident,
2:33
Speaker 1: a lawyer read a prepared statement allegedly from Sue, which
2:39
Speaker 1: reversed over three decades of support for Larry's innocence. From
2:45
Speaker 1: what I understand, her husband with no knowledge beyond what
2:49
Speaker 1: was in the media at the time, which was nothing
2:52
Speaker 1: short of an orgy of projection and violence, voyeurism with
2:58
Speaker 1: a head full of that her new husband has believed
3:01
Speaker 1: in Larry's guilt for all of these years, and who
3:04
Speaker 1: knows may have been in her ear about it, or
3:08
Speaker 1: may have been the catalyst for this alleged statement that
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Speaker 1: Sue didn't even bother to show up in person to deliver.
3:15
Speaker 1: Either way, the accelerator issues in the station wagon corroborate
3:19
Speaker 1: what Larry has been saying all along, but unfortunately her
3:24
Speaker 1: statement was weighed more heavily over the course of a
3:28
Speaker 1: year and a half after this twenty twenty three parole hearing,
3:31
Speaker 1: when finally Larry's parol was denied. So maybe when you're
3:36
Speaker 1: listening to his story, think about whether the physical evidence
3:40
Speaker 1: should be believed over a change of heart and mind
3:44
Speaker 1: coming three decades after the fact.
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Speaker 2: On August third, nineteen eighty nine, after a long, hot
3:53
Speaker 2: summer day, Larry and Sue Delisle took their four children
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Speaker 2: out for ice cream and to watch the boats pass
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Speaker 2: by on the Detroit When Larry pulled out on the
4:02
Speaker 2: street that dead ended at the river. The mechanical defect
4:05
Speaker 2: in their station wagon caused the accelerator to stick. The
4:08
Speaker 2: car sped off uncontrollably, and Larry and Sue's panicked efforts
4:12
Speaker 2: could not save them from launching into the Detroit River.
4:16
Speaker 2: Larry and Sue narrowly survived, but their children Brian, Melissa,
4:20
Speaker 2: Kate and Emily tragically did not. When the water log
4:24
Speaker 2: wreck was pulled from the river, the accelerator stuck again
4:28
Speaker 2: during testing, an issue raised by hundreds of others about
4:32
Speaker 2: that very make and model station wagon. It was a
4:35
Speaker 2: tragic accident, but that wasn't good enough for the police,
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Speaker 2: the media, or the people of Downriver, Michigan. After eighteen
4:43
Speaker 2: hours of interrogation and the usual tricks, Larry tacitly agreed
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Speaker 2: to hypotheticals posed by the interrogator. This couldn't pass muster
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Speaker 2: as a confession for a court of law, but it
4:54
Speaker 2: was quickly submitted to the court of public opinion when
4:57
Speaker 2: the police chief went on TV and said Larry Delile
5:00
Speaker 2: had confessed, effectively poisoning the entire jury pool. Larry was
5:05
Speaker 2: convicted of four counts of murder and one count of
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Speaker 2: attempted murder, despite Sue Delile's unwavering account of his actual innocence.
5:15
Speaker 2: This tragic accident stole their four children, and the state
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Speaker 2: compounded that loss by stealing what has become over three
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Speaker 2: long decades of Larry's life. This is Wrongful Conviction with
5:28
Speaker 2: Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
5:44
Speaker 2: That's me, of course, I'm your host, and today my
5:48
Speaker 2: heart is heavy because of the story you're about to
5:51
Speaker 2: hear and the man you're about to read. I'm proud
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Speaker 2: to call him a friend, and I'm proud to be
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Speaker 2: part of the team that's helping to try to bring
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Speaker 2: justice long delayed to this awful case. So, without further ado,
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Speaker 2: Larry Delisle, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. I'm sorry you have
6:11
Speaker 2: to be here, but I'm glad you're here, humble.
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Speaker 3: And honored to be here with you today.
6:16
Speaker 2: And Larry is calling us from prison in Michigan. Where
6:22
Speaker 2: exactly are you, Larry.
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Speaker 3: I'm in Coldwater, Michigan, which is a Lakeland Correctional facility.
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Speaker 2: And what you've gone through is surely unimaginable to almost anyone.
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Speaker 2: You know, the multiple tragic aspects of this case include
6:40
Speaker 2: obviously the loss of your family, but also the persecution
6:46
Speaker 2: that was wrongfully inflicted upon you by people that really
6:50
Speaker 2: should have known better. And of course, your wrongful incarceration
6:55
Speaker 2: now for over three decades is another thing that nobody
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Speaker 2: could even begin to imagine. But I want to go
7:02
Speaker 2: back to the beginning. Did you grow up in Michigan.
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Speaker 3: Yes, my grandparents raised me from age throughout two years old.
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Speaker 2: I mean, your childhood was haunted by a tragedy, A
7:13
Speaker 2: separate tragedy, right. I mean, I don't know how much
7:15
Speaker 2: one person is supposed to take in their life, and
7:18
Speaker 2: I don't even know if you want to talk about that,
7:19
Speaker 2: but it does come into focus with this case. As
7:22
Speaker 2: this goes.
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Speaker 3: On, you're talking about my father committing suicide.
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Speaker 2: Yes, of course I got a.
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Speaker 3: Call in the middle of the night early eighty eight
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Speaker 3: that my father had committed suicide. He drove down somewhere
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Speaker 3: by the river and put a gun to his.
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Speaker 2: Head, ironically, in the same vehicle that ended up being
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Speaker 2: the central figure in this awful tragedy that befell your family.
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Speaker 3: Most people would not have wanted to drive the vehicle.
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Speaker 3: I didn't want to drive the vehicle. But my father's wife,
7:56
Speaker 3: she wanted to give us something because my sister and
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Speaker 3: I find a way our rights to his house, because
8:02
Speaker 3: we didn't want her to have to remortgage or have
8:05
Speaker 3: to move. So she gave me the car the option
8:08
Speaker 3: of keeping it or selling it. At the time, we
8:10
Speaker 3: had a brand new nineteen eighty seven ford Errow started.
8:14
Speaker 3: We had just bought to go to Disneyland November of
8:17
Speaker 3: eighty seven, when my father had committed suicide, we were
8:21
Speaker 3: talking about getting rid of the aerostar, getting a cheaper
8:24
Speaker 3: vehicle so we can knock our bills down to a
8:27
Speaker 3: point where we can afford to buy a house. Well,
8:31
Speaker 3: when my father committed suicide, the place that I worked
8:33
Speaker 3: for tiremen, God bless him, they had taken the vehicle.
8:38
Speaker 3: They had it completely cleaned on the inside. Now, when
8:41
Speaker 3: I went there that night to drive the vehicle, I
8:44
Speaker 3: had mixed emotions. When I got in, I started crying
8:46
Speaker 3: right away, but after a few minutes I felt calm
8:52
Speaker 3: because my father had taken me everywhere with him when
8:55
Speaker 3: I was younger and older in the station wagon. He
8:59
Speaker 3: loved station I think that was the second or third one.
9:02
Speaker 3: So when I drove the vehicle, I felt a peace.
9:06
Speaker 3: Now it was up to my wife. She drove it.
9:09
Speaker 3: She loved it because it had a lot of power.
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Speaker 3: It just happened to have an intrinsic value as far
9:15
Speaker 3: as helping us to achieve our goals, which would have
9:20
Speaker 3: been to get a house for our children, to get
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Speaker 3: a house for us.
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Speaker 2: Right, well, with four kids, you have obviously in your
9:25
Speaker 2: a mechanic, and Larry is known in the prison as
9:28
Speaker 2: someone who can fix basically anything. But even still raising
9:32
Speaker 2: four kids on that salary, it can't be an easy task.
9:35
Speaker 2: And this case was featured in the Netflix documentary series
9:40
Speaker 2: of Confession Tapes by the wonderful Kelly Laudenberg, and encourage
9:44
Speaker 2: everyone to watch that episode. But let's go back to
9:47
Speaker 2: the night of this awful accident, and we're talking about
9:52
Speaker 2: the evening of August third, nineteen eighty nine, a ninety
9:55
Speaker 2: degree hot summer day and the hottest part of the summer.
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Speaker 3: This was a very, very hot day, and it was
10:01
Speaker 3: a very busy day. I worked close to ten hours
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Speaker 3: that day, running around on my feet. I got out
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Speaker 3: of there as quickly as I could, got the kids
10:10
Speaker 3: in the car, and away we went.
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Speaker 2: Larry and his wife and the children Brian, Melissa, Kadie
10:15
Speaker 2: and Emily had gone for ice cream and were watching
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Speaker 2: the boats along the Detroit River, which I know the
10:20
Speaker 2: kids enjoyed doing that. You had issues with your legs.
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Speaker 3: I was just not properly hydrated, and it caused my
10:28
Speaker 3: muscles to cramp up at different points. I've had problems
10:32
Speaker 3: most of my youth with cramping in my legs.
10:35
Speaker 2: It actually happened to me in the gym this morning
10:38
Speaker 2: when I was stretching. So it's not an uncommon thing,
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Speaker 2: especially when you're dehydrated, like on a hot summer day,
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Speaker 2: which was what the situation was with you. But there
10:47
Speaker 2: are a number of things that played into this unspeakable disaster.
10:52
Speaker 2: And what really happened was as you were leaving to
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Speaker 2: go home, you were on Eureka Road, which dead ends
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Speaker 2: at the river. You stepped on the gap, your leg
11:01
Speaker 2: cramped right up. The car shot off in pain. You
11:05
Speaker 2: reached down to pull your foot off the gas, but
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Speaker 2: the car continued to accelerate. Now you didn't know it
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Speaker 2: at the time, but there was a deep beact that
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Speaker 2: caused your accelerator jam, propelling the car with the six
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Speaker 2: of you inside, terrified and screaming through the barricade at
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Speaker 2: the end of Eureka Road, right into the Detroit River.
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Speaker 2: I mean, you must have relived it thousands of times
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Speaker 2: in your head.
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Speaker 3: Now I try not to. It's still painful today. When
11:37
Speaker 3: the accelerator stuck, it threw me off. I didn't know
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Speaker 3: what was stuck. I got my foot off the gas.
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Speaker 3: My foot was off. My wife even testified my foot
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Speaker 3: was off. She saw that my foot was off, but
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Speaker 3: the car did not slow down. Before I could even
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Speaker 3: do anything further, she reached over in an attempt to
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Speaker 3: help me. It was an inadvertent act, but it startled
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Speaker 3: me for a second and I froze, and before I
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Speaker 3: could decide what I was going to do, we ran
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Speaker 3: out of street. The whole thing took seven to ten seconds,
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Speaker 3: according to officials, seven to ten seconds.
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Speaker 2: We're talking about a section of the street that was
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Speaker 2: three hundred and ninety six feet long. We've already talked
12:22
Speaker 2: about the fact that the car had a powerful engine
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Speaker 2: and it wouldn't take any car very long to cover us,
12:28
Speaker 2: basically just a little bit further than a football field.
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Speaker 2: So add to I mean, all the other elements of
12:35
Speaker 2: pure panic and terror. The fact that the kids are
12:37
Speaker 2: in the car. I'm sure they're screaming, wife's grabbing the wheel,
12:40
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. You're staring at the water. And
12:43
Speaker 2: on top of that, you didn't know how to swim right.
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Speaker 3: No, I cannot. I can tread water thanks to my
12:50
Speaker 3: high school coach. But that's about it. But in the
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Speaker 3: impact itself, I was thrown forward. Half of my head
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Speaker 3: hit around the vizor. There was a bright light, a
13:02
Speaker 3: shot of pain from my neck all the way down
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Speaker 3: my spine. So I was disoriented once I was in
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Speaker 3: the water. I don't even know how I got out of.
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Speaker 2: The car well, I mean, you know, it's impossible to
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Speaker 2: probably imagine. And the fact is that this particular vehicle
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Speaker 2: had known issues. There were over one hundred people who
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Speaker 2: had reported the accelerator jamming on this exact make and
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Speaker 2: model station Wagon.
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Speaker 3: It was a seventy seven Ford LPD station Wagon four
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Speaker 3: six PQB against four barrel carburetor.
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Speaker 2: There was a mechanic who examined the car, Jim Koquell,
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Speaker 2: and he had identified three separate defects, any one of
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Speaker 2: which could have caused us uncontrolled acceleration. One was a
13:51
Speaker 2: kink in the accelerator cable that caused the cable to stick. Secondly,
13:54
Speaker 2: the throttle plates could be heard scraping inside the carburetor.
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Speaker 2: And thirdly, the engine mount was broken in this vehicle,
14:03
Speaker 2: which caused the tilt of the engine, and the tilting
14:06
Speaker 2: pulled at the accelerator cable. So the combination of these
14:10
Speaker 2: factors turned deadly. And as it turns out, they chose
14:16
Speaker 2: to ignore their own test because when they tested the
14:18
Speaker 2: vehicle after it was pulled out of the river, in
14:21
Speaker 2: one of the times when they test drove it, the
14:23
Speaker 2: accelerator did in fact jam.
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Speaker 3: Yes, when they were testing the vehicle and the accelerator
14:29
Speaker 3: had stuck, you had two mechanics there, one for the
14:32
Speaker 3: state who actually was just a bus mechanic who couldn't
14:35
Speaker 3: even start the vehicle for testing. We had an ASE
14:39
Speaker 3: certified master mechanic for us, who is the one who
14:42
Speaker 3: found all the problems with the vehicle, had to start
14:45
Speaker 3: it for them before they could even test it, and
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Speaker 3: an engineer. They were all there to day that the
14:51
Speaker 3: test happened when the accelerator stuck. He was sitting next
14:55
Speaker 3: to the State trooper Sergeant during their tests, and they're
14:58
Speaker 3: testing it with his on the accelerator, testing the brakes
15:02
Speaker 3: to see how long it would take to stop the vehicle.
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Speaker 3: And I imagine it would be quite a long ways
15:08
Speaker 3: with only manual brakes work. And you don't have the
15:10
Speaker 3: power assist, because when you're accelerating, you don't have power assist.
15:15
Speaker 3: Your power breaks don't work. You have to stand on
15:19
Speaker 3: them to get it to stop. In the state trooper sergeant,
15:22
Speaker 3: and he had to do that so hard they broke
15:24
Speaker 3: the seat. Any case, the arresting officer, he's taking notes.
15:28
Speaker 3: He wrote across the top of his notepad in bold letters,
15:33
Speaker 3: accelerator sticking, then swore under oath when he was up
15:36
Speaker 3: on the witness stand. He had no idea why. He
15:39
Speaker 3: wrote that there was nothing wrong with the car when
15:42
Speaker 3: the accelerator stuck. The bus mechanic, the master mechanic, and
15:45
Speaker 3: an engineer, they came running over to the vehicle, according
15:48
Speaker 3: to my lawyer, and the state trooper waved them away.
15:50
Speaker 3: He said, no, no, the problems inside the car. You
15:54
Speaker 3: have engineers and mechanics there to confind it. Get out
15:57
Speaker 3: of the car. Let him find out what's sticking right now,
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Speaker 3: And he refused to do it because the arresting officer
16:04
Speaker 3: probably didn't want them to find it, because if they
16:07
Speaker 3: found a problem, it would approve what I've been saying
16:09
Speaker 3: from the very beginning and what my wife had been
16:11
Speaker 3: saying from the very beginning. The accelerator stuck because it
16:15
Speaker 3: did for you. He shut it off. He testified that
16:20
Speaker 3: he shut it off because it startled him. He's six
16:22
Speaker 3: four to three hundred pounds and it startled him.
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Speaker 2: Did you expect it to remain come.
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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm expected to remain calm. He said. He was
16:30
Speaker 3: going to start the vehicle back up and put it
16:32
Speaker 3: in gear and see how fast it would go. At
16:34
Speaker 3: that point, all you had to do was put it
16:35
Speaker 3: in gear. When he shut it off, it voided the test,
16:39
Speaker 3: and they never got a chance to test it again
16:41
Speaker 3: because by the time they gave it over to the defense,
16:44
Speaker 3: the engine had been so roughly treated during their acceleration
16:48
Speaker 3: test that the engine blew up end of testing, end
16:54
Speaker 3: of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a
16:56
Speaker 3: problem with that station wagon.
17:11
Speaker 2: In a tragedy like this, community members have a very
17:16
Speaker 2: difficult time reconciling the fact that these type of tragic
17:20
Speaker 2: accidents happen when a child is lost, it's easier psychologically
17:25
Speaker 2: for people to assign blame to someone because the randomness
17:30
Speaker 2: of it is too terrifying, especially for people with children
17:34
Speaker 2: to imagine. And in this case, I think that as
17:39
Speaker 2: well as other sort of confirmation biases took hold. You
17:42
Speaker 2: were targeted by the media. They hounded you and basically
17:47
Speaker 2: set up camp outside the house of grieving parents until
17:50
Speaker 2: you agreed to give an interview, and then it becomes
17:53
Speaker 2: And we've seen this in so many cases, whether it's
17:55
Speaker 2: Amanda Knox or so many others, where the media or
17:59
Speaker 2: the authority feel you're either too sad or not sad enough,
18:03
Speaker 2: or too hysterical or too calm.
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Speaker 3: I don't think that people are aware of the fact
18:07
Speaker 3: that that first interview I did in the backyard, that
18:10
Speaker 3: I had had a couple of valumes given to me
18:12
Speaker 3: by a family member, and I don't even remember the interview.
18:17
Speaker 3: All I remember was an airplane going over the top.
18:20
Speaker 3: So if I didn't show emotion for people, it just
18:25
Speaker 3: makes me angry that they're going to point to the
18:28
Speaker 3: fact that I'm not classical as far as how I
18:32
Speaker 3: was supposed to react to losing my children being hounded
18:36
Speaker 3: by the press. I'm sorry, it's just dirty upsetting.
18:43
Speaker 2: Well, let's move on from there. This is a false
18:46
Speaker 2: confession case that has all of the hallmarks that we
18:50
Speaker 2: see again and again, just to paint a picture for everyone.
18:53
Speaker 2: A week after this unimaginable loss, the police picked you
18:59
Speaker 2: and Sue your wife up at seven am and interrogated
19:03
Speaker 2: you till one in the morning. So that's eighteen hours.
19:09
Speaker 2: And we know that when this process goes on interminably,
19:14
Speaker 2: eventually everybody has a breaking point. And even though you
19:18
Speaker 2: told him again and again I didn't do this, et cetera,
19:22
Speaker 2: et cetera, they just wouldn't listen.
19:23
Speaker 3: Is that right to continue to tell me that I
19:27
Speaker 3: wasn't telling him everything he wanted to hear, and I
19:30
Speaker 3: didn't understand what he meant at that point because I
19:33
Speaker 3: was answering all of his questions.
19:35
Speaker 2: I can't leave alone the idea that they were expecting
19:38
Speaker 2: you to recite over and over again exactly what happened
19:42
Speaker 2: when you didn't actually know what happened. In fact, you
19:45
Speaker 2: could not have known that this car was defective, or
19:48
Speaker 2: you wouldn't have been driving the damn thing.
19:49
Speaker 3: He was asking, what could have happened. Why the accelerator
19:53
Speaker 3: had stuck and I didn't know. I had my shoes off,
19:56
Speaker 3: but the shoe gets stuck in there was the accelerator sticking.
19:59
Speaker 3: Why isn't it slowing down? Would you take your foot off?
20:03
Speaker 3: The guests it's supposed to slow down. Period.
20:06
Speaker 2: Let's face it. There was no explanation that you could
20:09
Speaker 2: have provided that would have satisfied them. Because this is
20:11
Speaker 2: a very high profile case. The media is all over it,
20:15
Speaker 2: and everyone had already come to their own conclusions that
20:17
Speaker 2: you must have done this. So then it gets to
20:20
Speaker 2: the point where they give you a polygraph, and polygraphs
20:25
Speaker 2: are wildly inaccurate anyway, but they're effective in terms of
20:28
Speaker 2: getting people to falsely confess.
20:31
Speaker 4: I'm doctor Michael Abramski. I am a clinical and forensic psychologist.
20:36
Speaker 4: At the time of the wild case, I was studying
20:40
Speaker 4: false confessions and I was retained by the court to
20:44
Speaker 4: examine the confession. So I was provided with the videotape
20:47
Speaker 4: of the entire interrogation. It's the first half an hour
20:51
Speaker 4: to forty five minutes. The police officer, Palmitteer kills himself
20:55
Speaker 4: up as an expert and infallible and he also did
20:59
Speaker 4: the same thing with a polygraph. He said the polygraph
21:02
Speaker 4: could read minds, it was infallible, it's never wrong. It
21:06
Speaker 4: gives Delial the tests, which only consists of a few questions.
21:09
Speaker 4: And he leaves the room and he comes back with
21:12
Speaker 4: his head shaking and says to Delile you know you
21:17
Speaker 4: fail the polygraph. You're lying. The technique is to make
21:21
Speaker 4: the defendant feel that their situation is totally helpless. So basically,
21:26
Speaker 4: you set up a dilemma since the polygraph is infallible,
21:30
Speaker 4: you think you're telling the truth. It puts you into
21:33
Speaker 4: a state of cognitive dissonance. You have to find an
21:36
Speaker 4: explanation that entails both of those things. So Palmeteer spends
21:42
Speaker 4: hours pumping him, and largely it's not asking questions. It's
21:46
Speaker 4: telling him scenarios, telling him why he did this, that oh,
21:50
Speaker 4: you're tired and families are burden, and I know how
21:54
Speaker 4: hard your life is. So he is empathic with him,
21:58
Speaker 4: tells him he understand, implies that you know you're not
22:02
Speaker 4: a bad person for this. Lots of people are under stress.
22:06
Speaker 4: They do something rash and the people will be understanding. Basically,
22:11
Speaker 4: what he's trying to do is get Larry to make
22:13
Speaker 4: incriminating statements, and the implication is always that you know
22:18
Speaker 4: you're not going to suffer a bad punishment for this.
22:21
Speaker 3: Some of the things that this man was saying we're
22:25
Speaker 3: actually disturbing to hear. He would try to convince me
22:29
Speaker 3: that he liked to scare his wife. He said he'd
22:32
Speaker 3: drive up really fast behind parked cars and slam on
22:35
Speaker 3: the brakes just to scare her. And he asked me
22:37
Speaker 3: if I ever wanted to do that. He even talked
22:40
Speaker 3: about he gets so mad at his kids, he'd want
22:42
Speaker 3: to stick him in a garbage bag and throw him
22:44
Speaker 3: in a clown And he said, you ever want to
22:45
Speaker 3: do that? And I got angry at him for even
22:48
Speaker 3: suggesting something that heinous to be done to any child.
22:52
Speaker 3: I never said I wanted to do that, But then
22:55
Speaker 3: later on in his interrogation somehow he had me parroting him.
23:00
Speaker 3: They were not confessions. They were brought about by this
23:03
Speaker 3: man instilling guilt in me, making me feel that I
23:07
Speaker 3: was responsible above and beyond the mechanical problems on there.
23:14
Speaker 4: Palmitteer keeps on trying scenarios where Larry will implicate himself
23:19
Speaker 4: and he doesn't and Finally, he tries out a scenario
23:23
Speaker 4: that makes Larry bite. He basically says to Larry, do
23:26
Speaker 4: you know about the unconscious? And Larry does not. He
23:31
Speaker 4: tells them that unconscious means that we do certain things
23:34
Speaker 4: that we don't really know that we've done them. You know,
23:37
Speaker 4: even though you did it, you're not really responsible because
23:39
Speaker 4: you're unconscious that did it, And that starts giving Larry
23:44
Speaker 4: an explanation. And so at some point he makes an
23:47
Speaker 4: equivocal statement such as you think that could have happened,
23:50
Speaker 4: or he starts questioning Palmitteer, and he never says that
23:54
Speaker 4: he did it, but he starts questioning and implying that
23:57
Speaker 4: maybe that did happen, And then the interrogation is over
24:01
Speaker 4: because what he's done is accepted Palmitteer's theory that he
24:05
Speaker 4: did drive the car into the river and that he
24:08
Speaker 4: did want hurt someone. He just didn't know it at
24:10
Speaker 4: the time. But you know, under the law, that doesn't
24:13
Speaker 4: make any difference.
24:16
Speaker 2: The police chief himself went on the news and proclaimed
24:20
Speaker 2: that Larry Delal has confessed. At that point, they almost
24:23
Speaker 2: didn't need a trial. To his credit, the judge did
24:26
Speaker 2: actually suppress the confession and people are probably hearing that
24:29
Speaker 2: saying oh good. But the fact is it didn't matter
24:31
Speaker 2: at that point because they refused to change venue.
24:35
Speaker 4: So it's very important to understand the psychological atmosphere was occurring. First,
24:41
Speaker 4: the news stations had a stock shot of the car
24:45
Speaker 4: being lifted out of the river by a crane, and
24:48
Speaker 4: everybody knew there were four dead children in there, and
24:51
Speaker 4: night after night that was playing. People then started gathering
24:55
Speaker 4: down by the river demanding justice for these four kids.
25:00
Speaker 4: After he was questioned, they announced that he had confessed
25:04
Speaker 4: to the crime, which of course he had not, but
25:08
Speaker 4: you put that in the crowd's mind, it's almost impossible
25:12
Speaker 4: to reverse. The next thing that happened was, of course,
25:15
Speaker 4: of suppression hearing, and that's where I testified that the
25:18
Speaker 4: confession was involuntary. I described the techniques that were used
25:22
Speaker 4: and why what he said was not voluntary. Judge Colombo
25:26
Speaker 4: ruled in Delile's favor and he threw out the confession.
25:29
Speaker 4: Except the problem was that it had already been in
25:32
Speaker 4: the newspaper, and the retractions from the newspaper said things
25:37
Speaker 4: like Lawrence Delile's statements that he intentionally killed his family
25:41
Speaker 4: cannot be used in court. Against them, And when you
25:44
Speaker 4: try to tell people that it's invalid, they believe, oh no,
25:47
Speaker 4: the guy just just realized that he got himself into trouble.
25:50
Speaker 4: He's just denying it now. So they never believe the
25:53
Speaker 4: confession is false. They believe the denial of the confession
25:56
Speaker 4: is false.
25:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if they had caves and
26:00
Speaker 2: wy dot that you could have found someone who didn't
26:03
Speaker 2: on the TV or read the newspaper. But short of that,
26:06
Speaker 2: you're looking at yours. We were unaware of the tactics
26:09
Speaker 2: that were used to elicit that confession, and who can't
26:12
Speaker 2: reconcile the idea that anyone would confessed to crime they
26:14
Speaker 2: didn't commit. But it happens all the damn time. And
26:17
Speaker 2: they charged you with four counts of murder one kind
26:20
Speaker 2: of attempted murder. Prosecutor was a guy named Kevin Simowski.
26:23
Speaker 2: He painted you as a guy who was overwhelmed by debt.
26:26
Speaker 3: The fact of the matter is I was not overwhelmed
26:28
Speaker 3: with debt. I owned less than thirteen to five and
26:30
Speaker 3: made over thirty thousand dollars a year. I just got
26:33
Speaker 3: a house, so they didn't have to make any payments
26:35
Speaker 3: on for an entire year, and I take great offense
26:39
Speaker 3: every time they keep trying to bring up, oh, he
26:41
Speaker 3: was deeply in debt. As a matter of fact, the
26:43
Speaker 3: headlines wanted to point out, oh, he was trying to
26:47
Speaker 3: get rid of his burdens. Well, the police were trying
26:50
Speaker 3: to say, my debt was my burdens, but the people
26:53
Speaker 3: looked at it as my children were my burdens. That's
26:55
Speaker 3: how they were trying to convict me.
26:58
Speaker 2: And here's a very very important thing to me. Your wife, Sue.
27:04
Speaker 2: Now she's gone through the same horrendous boss that you have,
27:10
Speaker 2: and I think it's fair to say that maybe when
27:13
Speaker 2: in her position, if they had even a sneaking suspicion
27:17
Speaker 2: that you might have done it on purpose, she would
27:19
Speaker 2: have been the number one witness for the prosecution. She,
27:23
Speaker 2: in fact, was the only witness to the crime, except
27:24
Speaker 2: for some woman that was out in her balcony on
27:26
Speaker 2: the eleventh floor across the street. Let's not even go there.
27:29
Speaker 2: But she didn't turn on you.
27:32
Speaker 3: She was there, She knows exactly what happened. She saw
27:36
Speaker 3: my foot off there, she tried to help. She was
27:39
Speaker 3: actually demonized by the public for years. She had to
27:44
Speaker 3: move away from down river because they were harassing her.
27:48
Speaker 3: Somebody tried to break into the house. Somebody would call
27:51
Speaker 3: on the phone leaving threatening messages. She couldn't get a
27:55
Speaker 3: job anywhere because of her last name.
27:57
Speaker 2: Well because she wouldn't turn on you, even though she
28:00
Speaker 2: was doing the right thing. So the jury deliberated for
28:04
Speaker 2: nine hours over two days.
28:06
Speaker 3: They came back originally ten to two. The judge sent
28:10
Speaker 3: them back. They came back the next day eleven to one.
28:14
Speaker 3: He threatened to keep them through the weekend if they
28:17
Speaker 3: didn't come back with a decision.
28:18
Speaker 2: We know that in those jury rooms extreme pressure is
28:23
Speaker 2: exerted by people who want to go home. But you
28:27
Speaker 2: can send a note to the judge. You're allowed to
28:29
Speaker 2: do that and just say, your honor, I'm not budging,
28:32
Speaker 2: I'm done here. I'd say ninety nine percent of people
28:34
Speaker 2: serve on juries don't even know you could do that.
28:36
Speaker 2: You just send a note to the judge and say
28:38
Speaker 2: I'm done, I'm not voted to convict, and then the
28:41
Speaker 2: judge has the decision to make the idea that so
28:44
Speaker 2: many people like you, Larry, are spending the rest of
28:46
Speaker 2: their lives in prison because somebody needed to get home
28:49
Speaker 2: and back to their job. This is not a unique thing,
28:52
Speaker 2: and it's something that needs to be addressed. When they
28:54
Speaker 2: filed back in, what were your thoughts?
28:56
Speaker 3: I could tell when they came in. Some of them
28:59
Speaker 3: were smiling, but some of them had their arms crossed,
29:02
Speaker 3: and I stood up. And when they said guilty, I
29:09
Speaker 3: couldn't stand anymore. I had to sit down or I
29:12
Speaker 3: would just pass out. I was so much shock. If
29:16
Speaker 3: this were a boxing match, we won every single day.
29:19
Speaker 3: The prosecutor helped prove our case, even when the accelerator
29:24
Speaker 3: stuck and the police officer waved the mechanics away, saying, oh, no,
29:29
Speaker 3: the problems in the car, Yeah, the problem was sitting
29:31
Speaker 3: next to you taking notes. He wrote specifically across the
29:35
Speaker 3: top of his notepad, accelerator sticking, then swore under oath,
29:39
Speaker 3: I have no idea why I wrote that there was
29:41
Speaker 3: nothing wrong with the car. Bullshit. You knew that the
29:44
Speaker 3: mechanics an engineer that was there would have found the problem.
29:49
Speaker 3: It would have proved that I was innocent.
29:51
Speaker 2: The big mistake to me that among all the other mistakes,
29:54
Speaker 2: was judge not allowing a change of venue, because you know,
29:56
Speaker 2: maybe you could have gotten a fair trial for.
29:58
Speaker 3: What was disheartening too, is that there was a problem
30:01
Speaker 3: with that vehicle. That Ford did recall that engine, but
30:05
Speaker 3: only on the pickup trucks, not on our station wagon
30:08
Speaker 3: for that year. My lawyer tried to enter it into
30:11
Speaker 3: trial at the time, and to judge said that because
30:14
Speaker 3: it was not the pickup truck recalled, he wouldn't allow
30:18
Speaker 3: him to enter in evidence until the trial was over with,
30:21
Speaker 3: so the jury never got to hear it.
30:34
Speaker 2: So you've been in prison of for thirty years. I
30:37
Speaker 2: know you recently survived COVID on top of everything else,
30:40
Speaker 2: But can you explained that the prison experience.
30:45
Speaker 3: Oh that wasn't there for my wife at the funeral
30:49
Speaker 3: for our children. My grandparents who raised me passed away
30:54
Speaker 3: while I was in here. These are just the emotional
30:57
Speaker 3: ones there. This has nothing to do with the pain
31:00
Speaker 3: that I went through dealing with all these people in
31:03
Speaker 3: the beginning. I could tell you that the first ten
31:08
Speaker 3: years were horrible. Matter of fact, the first five I
31:11
Speaker 3: have had more death threats, evil stairs, things thrown at
31:17
Speaker 3: me every day NonStop for five years. I'm surprised I
31:21
Speaker 3: even survived it. And then the next five years, instead
31:25
Speaker 3: of being daily, it would be once or twice a week,
31:28
Speaker 3: and then eventually once or twice a month, and then
31:31
Speaker 3: finally down to once or twice a year. Now I
31:35
Speaker 3: can go several years before I hear a discouraging word
31:37
Speaker 3: from somebody. But I have over the last two decades
31:42
Speaker 3: made a lot of good friends in here. You are
31:45
Speaker 3: the company you keep, so I try to keep company
31:48
Speaker 3: with people I would have as my friends and neighbors
31:50
Speaker 3: out in the world.
31:51
Speaker 2: Can you describe a ray of light that you can identify.
31:56
Speaker 3: The best thing that's ever happened to me was getting
31:59
Speaker 3: on maintenance twenty two two years ago. I've had the
32:02
Speaker 3: opportunity to learn so much about things that I never
32:06
Speaker 3: knew before, so much about repairing buildings, clients, repair heating,
32:10
Speaker 3: air conditioning, electrical I spent one hundreds of dollars on
32:14
Speaker 3: books and thousands of hours studying to get as good
32:16
Speaker 3: as I am. Now. I'm very good at what I
32:18
Speaker 3: do today.
32:20
Speaker 2: You've had appeals over the years, but it hasn't resulted
32:25
Speaker 2: in any relief. Can you explain why that process is
32:29
Speaker 2: dragged on for so long?
32:31
Speaker 3: Well, my lawyer, Frank Eman, did an excellent job throughout
32:34
Speaker 3: the entire process. I owe him everything. The system itself
32:39
Speaker 3: is very slow. The courts don't care if you're innocent
32:43
Speaker 3: or not. They just care did to get a fair trial.
32:45
Speaker 3: I didn't get a fair trial, and I went through
32:47
Speaker 3: the federal courts where they split politically eight to seven.
32:51
Speaker 3: I don't remember if his Democrats Republicans Republicans Democrats. You're
32:55
Speaker 3: supposed to be impartial. You're supposed to vote your conscious
32:59
Speaker 3: what you see. You're like a referee in a football game.
33:02
Speaker 3: You're supposed to judge everything by what you have before you.
33:06
Speaker 3: Every one of the judges said that they are disappointed
33:10
Speaker 3: in the state of Michigan for allowing suppressed evidence to
33:13
Speaker 3: be released to the media before trial. You would think
33:18
Speaker 3: that we get you to the United States Supreme Court,
33:21
Speaker 3: but it didn't. I guess some clerk putting in there
33:23
Speaker 3: in my case doesn't warrant you going before the highest
33:26
Speaker 3: court in the land. My life, my constitutional rights violated,
33:31
Speaker 3: and that doesn't go before the highest court in the land.
33:35
Speaker 2: There's still one remedy left for clemency from Governor Whitmer.
33:41
Speaker 2: You've recently submitted your clemency petition. You know, clemency is
33:45
Speaker 2: to me something that I've been telling anyone who would listen,
33:49
Speaker 2: including people in power, that this is an underused power
33:52
Speaker 2: that is given very deliberately to governors and presidents because
33:58
Speaker 2: they are to serve as the last sort of stop
34:02
Speaker 2: gap to prevent injustices from being allowed to stand. And
34:08
Speaker 2: your case cries out for it, as I think anyone
34:10
Speaker 2: who's just listened to this podcast agrees. So is there
34:15
Speaker 2: anything people can do to help generate momentum for your
34:19
Speaker 2: clemency petition?
34:21
Speaker 3: You could write the pro board, try to contact the governor.
34:25
Speaker 3: I've got thousands of signatures on this petition begging her
34:29
Speaker 3: to hear my case to show clemency. Visit the petition website,
34:34
Speaker 3: sign the petition. She can hear that people are concerned,
34:38
Speaker 3: she may do something.
34:40
Speaker 2: We're going to put a link to the petition in
34:43
Speaker 2: the show notes. Please use your voice. Let's help bring
34:48
Speaker 2: Larry home together. This nightmare has gone on for far
34:51
Speaker 2: too long. Larry. We have a section of the show
34:54
Speaker 2: that is my favorite part each episode. First of all,
34:58
Speaker 2: I thank you for being here and for your courage
35:01
Speaker 2: and for sharing your story. So thank you, Larry Delile.
35:04
Speaker 2: You know our thoughts are with you, and we're going
35:07
Speaker 2: to build momentum for you. With this podcast. This actually
35:10
Speaker 2: the show is called Closing Arguments, and this is where
35:13
Speaker 2: I turned my microphone off. I'm going to kick back,
35:17
Speaker 2: close my eyes and just listen to your words.
35:20
Speaker 3: First off, I would like to say that I am
35:22
Speaker 3: so proud of so many activists out there who are
35:27
Speaker 3: protesting both social and racial injustice, the protesting against wrongful convictions.
35:34
Speaker 3: You have to salute our heroes on the front line
35:38
Speaker 3: in healthcare who are taking everyone who has COVID nineteen,
35:43
Speaker 3: all these tragic deaths that are happening in everyone's family.
35:47
Speaker 3: My heart goes out to you. I would like to
35:50
Speaker 3: thank Ashley Ross and Carla Beck for everything they've done
35:57
Speaker 3: to get to this point. They have been very stunched.
36:00
Speaker 3: They started a petition, they supported a petition, and I
36:05
Speaker 3: love them to death. There are so many people that
36:08
Speaker 3: have written me since the Netflix documentary came out. Bless
36:12
Speaker 3: you all. Thank you very much. Please please stay safe
36:17
Speaker 3: out there.
36:23
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
36:26
Speaker 2: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
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Speaker 2: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for
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Speaker 2: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
36:34
Speaker 2: production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
36:37
Speaker 2: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kleiber.
36:41
Speaker 2: The music in this production was supplied by three time
36:43
Speaker 2: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
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Speaker 2: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
36:50
Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
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Speaker 2: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of
36:56
Speaker 2: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company.
36:59
Speaker 1: Number One and worked hard to ensure that all facts
37:01
Speaker 1: reported in this show are accurate. The views and opinions
37:04
Speaker 1: expressed by the individuals featured in this show are their
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Speaker 1: Her Good