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Three approaches to life: 3. Self-Avoidance · Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast

0:00
Hello everyone and welcome to the Curious Mind Podcast.
0:03
My name is Gabriel Ellis, I am a psychologist, A psychotherapist
0:07
and Buddhist scholar, and in this podcast I like to reflect
0:12
on deep psychological topics, issues sometimes also in
0:17
meditation and I want to bring a little bit more to the surface
0:21
the complexity of psychological and therapeutic thought and make
0:27
them accessible to the public. In the last two episodes I was
0:31
reflecting on approaches to life from different approaches to
0:36
life and the 1st of this series was about the virtue oriented
0:42
type of person. That kind of type of person very
0:46
explicitly and consciously chooses, reflects on and
0:50
implements virtues into their life.
0:55
This is a very conscious project process, and thereby they
1:00
reflect on all the things that they have accumulated in their
1:04
life and their experiences, what they got transferred from their
1:09
parents, from society. They chew it through, as we say,
1:12
in psychological terms, and they retain what they want to keep in
1:17
their life. They throw up what they want,
1:19
don't want to keep in their life and it's basically oriented on
1:23
abstract virtues that should serve as a compass and a
1:30
orientation point. The effect of a successful
1:35
virtue orientation and their life is that the subconscious
1:39
aligns with those chosen virtues and the effect is a harmonious
1:46
and calm way of living throughout daily life.
1:51
Why? Because the virtue successful
1:55
virtue oriented person is quite independent from outside
1:59
circumstances. Whatever happens on the outside,
2:03
the virtue or rendered 1 still follows the virtues and
2:08
additionally whatever happens on the inside.
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So pretty much regardless of feelings, thoughts, hopes,
2:15
wishes, expectations, worries, fears and so on, people adhere
2:19
to the virtues, virtues. And because virtues per
2:25
definition are installments into my own psyche with which the
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whole subject resonates as an effect, the subconscious submits
2:35
itself and gives up its more need oriented logic.
2:41
Because this is somewhat unusual, especially in our day
2:45
and age, we find this lifestyle more in religious or
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spirituality minded people. And in the episode I got into a
2:57
little bit more depth on what the right preconditions are.
3:01
Because of course it's not about people who are supposedly or
3:04
somewhat religious or spiritually oriented.
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No, and the successful, very virtue oriented type.
3:12
There's a whole psychological transformation going on which
3:16
indicates how rare this actually is.
3:20
The second part was about the need oriented type, the need
3:24
oriented approach, and this is something that is far more
3:28
common. This is what I think fits to
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most people living nowadays, and here the logic is different.
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I'm not installing virtues into my mind to which the unconscious
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and the subconscious submit, but much more.
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I'm finely in tune with my unconscious needs.
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Are the needs basically of the unconscious and me as the
3:56
conscious subject that is in tune with my unconscious.
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I understand my unconscious. In other words, I understand my
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needs. I understand what is important
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for me. I understand what I in quotes
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want to do in life. I understand what the
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unconscious wants me to do in life.
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So it's a self understanding that is the basis of the need
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orientation and by following the lead of the unconscious and
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doing so in a flexible non rigid way, I become not satisfied and
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steady and stoic as the virtue oriented person would be.
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I become happy, joyful. There is lust, there is passion.
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All of these things that we associate with a happy life
4:45
nowadays is basically a code for a successful implementation of a
4:51
needs orientation into my life. The logic of that is the
4:58
unconscious. My deeper personality has those
5:01
needs, for example the what I call source needs of closeness
5:07
or love and power or influence. I understand those.
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I implement them and then I get rewarded by my energy system, by
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my unconscious, I get rewarded with positive feelings.
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So I described in more depth those types in the previous
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episodes. So please, if you want to
5:29
refresh your memory or this is the first episode that you're
5:31
listening, go back to those to inform yourself more on the
5:35
previous types. Today I want to focus on the
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third approach, and this is the self avoidant type.
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This is not so much a conscious approach and it's the least
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favourable of the three, but it represents also in many ways
5:55
what we know from ourselves, what we know from other people
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and most importantly what becomes clinically relevant
6:03
because these are the types of people.
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This is the kind of approach that people implement in their
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life, but what they get out of it is usually chronified
6:16
anxiety, chronified depression. And here I want to explain a
6:21
little bit why that comes about and how we can characterize and
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recognize it. So I call it the self avoidant
6:30
type because we exactly lack in this approach and understanding
6:35
and implementation of virtues on the one hand and we lack on the
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other hand also an understanding of the unconscious.
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So we in this self avoidant approach that we involuntarily
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take, we know from other people, we know from media, our parents,
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from society in general, what the supposed needs are.
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But we are unable to really implement them in a successful
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way because we don't know our specific needs.
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Fingerprint, we don't know ourselves that well.
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So we're kind of guessing hit and miss.
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We're doing something here, something there.
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It doesn't work. What is the result of that?
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The result of my specific unconscious is that it sees that
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its needs are not satisfied by me and because of that it a
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punishes me with uncomfortable feelings.
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Basically saying, well if you don't satisfy my needs then I
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will push you to do it. I will force you to do it and or
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it will limit and reduce the quality of our communication so
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that it will in simplify terms it will stop talking to me.
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And when the unconscious stops talking to me, I have even less
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of an idea of what I want and what is important for me.
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And because of that I basically must fail.
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So the result of such a self avoidant approach of self, such
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a self avoidant type is unpleasant feelings and
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impulses. Now many people have that and we
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need still to cope. We want to live our life and
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typical coping mechanisms with this approach is avoidance.
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We want to avoid situations that cause uncomfortable feelings in
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us. We want to avoid thoughts and
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feelings that cause uncomfortable impulses and
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feelings in us. So avoidance is 1 coping
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mechanism. Distraction is another coping
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mechanism. Distraction nowadays of course
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with digital media, social media, music, superficial
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entertainment, social encounters and so there's so many ways that
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we can distract ourselves. Shopping, and naturally our
9:16
society especially, provides many possibilities to distract
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ourselves. So it's avoidance has one
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possibility to cope, Second is distraction is another
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possibility to cope, and a third possibility to cope is to become
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aggressive. Why?
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Because again, I'm feeling those unpleasant feelings and instead
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of keeping them inside, I act them out.
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And the unpleasantness inside turns into an aggression and A
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and an impulse to destroy. On the outside there are people
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who take that also inside. There is very often we see a
9:54
similarity of approaches to the outside world and the inside
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world. And those people are auto
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aggressive. They harm themselves, they
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overly judge themselves, they look down on this themselves.
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And here we when we chew in to the inner monologue of how
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people talk to themselves and we ask them, well, how do you react
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to a failure, for example, in life and work, in relationship?
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It's very harsh what we come to hear.
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I am not worthy of anything. I'm a piece of shit.
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I am not worth living. I'm pointless.
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I'm not worthy of this or that. So this is how people who cope
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with auto aggression, how they deal, how they react to those
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uncomfortable impulses that appear on the inside.
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A skill that people develop with this approach is control.
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Not because it's working perfectly, but it is somehow
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working for sure to a certain extent for a certain time.
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And what those people learn to do is they learn to control the
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environment, which can be financial, which can be
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geographical, which can be at work in relationships.
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So whatever pertains to the external life, this is what they
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learn to control. Especially if they're smart and
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intelligent and or they learn to control the inner life, they
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become good at suppressing emotions for example,
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successfully distracting themselves, abuse of drugs and
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alcohol for example. This is how I directly influence
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my internal system, my energy system and again from my
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experience it might work for a while.
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Let's say people develop a depressive, aggressive or
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anxious style in puberty when they're 12131416 years old.
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It might go well for about 10 years and then the cracks show
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and they come to the limitations.
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So it's not something that is super sustainable, but it might
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enough. It might work enough for a while
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so that they are encouraged A to continue on this path of
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control, self-control and control of circumstances, and B
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it leads them to neglect other approaches of coping mechanisms
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which might be more sustainable and more healthy.
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So they learn to become good in control, and they avoid or they
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don't progress in the development of codeping
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mechanisms that are other than control.
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So they're handicapped on both ways.
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Let's go a little bit more again into the consequences of this
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type. If it goes badly, one is
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anxiety. Anxiety is characterized as the
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fear of or avoidance of in states of mind, feelings,
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thoughts that are unpleasant. This is 1 type and this is a
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little bit personality dependent.
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So there are people who more readily and naturally go into
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the anxiety into developing an anxiety.
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There are other people who are more prone to developing
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depressive episodes or chronified depressions.
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Why is that? What?
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Because the communication with the unconscious is severed is
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problematic. The unconscious stops
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communicating with me, or it stops giving me clues to what my
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needs are. It is.
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If we want to personalize, humanize the unconscious, we can
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say it's pouting because I was neglecting.
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It's more straightforward impulses for such a long time
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that it doesn't believe in our communication anymore, so it
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stops talking to me. And because of that there is
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radio silence. So someone who is depressed and
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I ask them, what do you want in life?
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Who are you? What do you want to do with
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yourself? How do you want to develop to
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all of those fundamental psychological questions?
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They will not be able to give a proper response, or if they give
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a response, it's one that doesn't resonate very well.
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It's something that they rehearsed or picked up from
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books or videos of parents or society.
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So this is again the consequence of the radio silence that the
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unconscious applies due to my failure to react, act on, and
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implement the needs that it communicated to me in the past.
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This is depression, the person who develops, again out of
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inclination, predisposition, a more aggressive style.
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This is when they're not able to deal with the uncomfortable
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impulses on the insides, the disappointments, the failures,
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the fears, and so on, and they turn it into a type of control
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that focuses on destroying the object that seemingly produces
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my uncomfortable feelings. So I go to work.
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My boss is not very psychologically savvy, so they
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are just, you know, shouting complaints and and somehow limit
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my freedom, my budget, whatever my reaction, I don't know how to
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adequately react to that. I'm somehow not in the position
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to quit my job or I'm afraid to quit my job and what I do is I
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develop revenge from disease. One possibility is I go through
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a lot of scenarios of what I could have, should have done, or
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what I plan to say next time. Or I straightforward go into
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revenge fantasies, how I will destroy them online, I will
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physically harm them, I will abuse them in some way.
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It can get pretty nasty, as we all know, when it stays in the
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fantasy realm, maybe they talk behind the backs and so on, so
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those little revenge activities and communications as well.
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But this is a coping mechanism for the inability to deal with
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the discomfort that is a proxy created by, for example, those
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bosses, those authorities, something that is happening
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inside. I'm unable to deal with it and
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my reaction is I want to control or destroy the object outside.
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Generally it's common for self avoidant types to feel depleted.
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They have a lack of energy. They obviously have a lack of
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satisfaction. In life there is a constant loss
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of energy because where is the energy coming from?
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The energy is coming from a successful fulfillment of my
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needs. If I don't know my needs and
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more or less have to guess my needs, then it's hit and miss.
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More often than not I will do something that doesn't fit my
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needs, so I wasted energy without getting him back
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afterwards. So I'm always running on a low
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battery. Another typical expression is
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lethargy, weakness and fatigue. Now as I already mentioned,
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there is in quotes also successes of the self avoidant
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type. They can be good in some things.
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Someone who is successful internally, they become really
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good at distracting themselves, controlling themselves.
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Going now, not to throw all people in there, but some
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percentage of people who are obsessed with self development
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or spirituality are actually people who are self avoidant.
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What they're doing with self development, with meditation,
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with mindfulness, with all those techniques, is a form of self
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regulation that doesn't result in growth but results in
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managing the discomfort within me.
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And when they do it, for example with self development and
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spirituality, they learn techniques of dissociation, The
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lack of fulfillment of needs is there, The uncomfortable
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feelings are there, but they become good in zoning out from
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those discomforts and they become some sort of a shell that
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is walking around again. It's you know that's it's it's
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sometimes more or less difficult to identify those types.
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By no means everyone that is that is engaged in self
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development and spirituality is a self avoidant type.
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But will often find those types and they're why?
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Because they as there is a certain desperation, a certain
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need in to develop mechanisms that help them to manage their
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lives. So they look for those
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techniques and for those tools. And they will use them to this
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purpose. OK, so on the one hand we I want
20:18
to to describe it on a spectrum. We have the successful needs
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oriented person. On the one hand they are in tune
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with the unconscious. They know what they want, what
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they need they implemented into their lives.
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The report with the unconscious is good.
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This is a success. There.
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On the other hand, we have the total failure in that
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department, which leads to anxiety, depression, aggression.
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But we I don't want to suggest that this is very uncommon.
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People who are not professionally or 24/7 engaged
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in the quest of understanding themselves, living their
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spiritual life or living a healthy life and so on.
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In other words, normal people are only more or less well
21:06
equipped to deal with the complexities of their
21:09
unconscious. So to a certain extent, most
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people have to deal with those uncomfortable feelings, and they
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do so partly with compensations, with coping mechanisms, with
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distraction, with suppression. This is very, very normal.
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And so, you know, there's kind of an understanding and depth
21:29
psychology that normal people in quotes are neurotic.
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And this is what they mean with that.
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Normal people are people who to a certain extent have the
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ability to cope with their needs to implement them, but also they
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have to cope with their discomforts and they don't do it
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always very well. So we all know periods of time
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when we are anxious. We all know the periods of time
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when we have less energy depressive episodes which are
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not chronified depressions, and this is quite common.
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We are the ones that are in the middle of the spectrum between
22:08
great needs satisfaction and no needs satisfaction.
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Another type of person that has become quite known and talked
22:22
about these days is someone who suffers from burnout.
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A burnout has, and by the way, this is not an official
22:31
diagnosis. There is no recognized
22:33
international diagnosis of burnout.
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It's only certain countries, a few European countries, who have
22:40
acknowledged burnout as an official diagnosis.
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So let's use burnout in the more colloquial, non professional
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way. A burnout has many similarities
22:52
with a depression actually, but it typically is connected to
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circumstances pertaining to work.
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So to characterize a burnout person strictly by what the
23:07
terminology of depression is not fair because they might have
23:12
quite a few aspects of their life in order that might have a
23:16
good relationship. Hobbies, friendship.
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They do sports, many things that they do they are well equipped
23:23
in, but what they have not managed is their expenditure and
23:29
energy in work. And here we can use the concepts
23:38
and terms that I used to describe the self avoidant
23:42
person a little bit better. With this example, someone who
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is burnt out has gotten a lot of signals from their unconscious
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over time. Quit this job, Leave it.
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Don't work that much. Don't bother with work.
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Focus on family and friends. These are things that they tell
24:04
themselves, or in my terminology, this is what the
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unconscious is telling them Now, what has happened for whatever
24:13
reason. Maybe it's financial distress.
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Maybe it's obligation. Maybe it's fear of not being
24:19
able to change the job within the company, outside of the
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company or whatever it is. For some reason or another, they
24:27
have neglected and ignored those signals from the unconscious.
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So the unconscious was bombarding them every day and in
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those sleepless nights with the messages of stop it, quit, don't
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go, change it, don't let them get to you.
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Learn to say no. All of these things that we know
24:48
that lead to burnout. The individual, the conscious
24:52
individual ignores it. And then, as I described before,
24:56
but here in a more limited way only because of pertaining to
25:00
work, the unconscious stops communicating with them and
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stops giving them direct clues of how to be satisfied and
25:13
happy. So what people who suffer from
25:18
burnout or develop burnout symptoms, what they are reduced
25:22
to is to manage themselves rather worse than better.
25:30
So they try to learn how to sleep a little bit better.
25:34
They try to learn a little bit better how to deal with
25:37
uncomfortable authoritative bosses, with a modeling
25:41
situation at work or whatever it is, But clearly this goes in the
25:48
wrong direction. The unconscious wants something
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else. The unconscious is telling them
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stop it, leave it, let it go. To put it simply.
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So this is the characterization of burnout with those tools and
26:04
concepts that I've described before.
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Another thing that I want to mention is sometimes self
26:11
avoidant people because they have developed those control
26:17
mechanisms. From the outside they might look
26:21
like virtue oriented people and they might actually think as
26:25
long as they're successful that they are virtue oriented people,
26:29
virtue oriented types. Now how can we distinguish the
26:33
two? Again, the virtue oriented
26:36
person does not bother to focus on success.
26:42
A virtue oriented person does not need success.
26:46
They are independent from circumstances they are happy
26:49
with. Implementing in some way or
26:52
another that leads or not does not lead to success.
26:55
They are interested in implementing their virtues,
26:59
applying their virtues to their daily activities.
27:02
They don't need to be successful, change the world,
27:05
change the company, or whatever it is.
27:08
They are happy to just do their part.
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It is the self avoidant type because they are reduced to the
27:15
hope of control, control of others, control of oneself.
27:20
They are the ones that focus on success.
27:22
So if you wonder how to distinguish the virtue oriented
27:26
person and the self avoidant type that looks like one, don't
27:32
get distracted by the labels. Don't just get distracted by
27:35
what people say they are. I care about the environment, I
27:40
care about equality and so on. Rather look at how do they deal
27:44
with non success with frustration.
27:50
Because control, self-control and control of circumstances is
27:55
such an important feature of the self avoidant type and as I said
28:01
people who are smart and basically all the mundane ways
28:09
intellectual and so on. People who are smart and self
28:13
avoidant can become in outside world quite successful.
28:18
They can be managers, they can be CEOs.
28:21
Not that everyone is that type, but because they this was their
28:27
way out, this was the go to tool, strategizing, politics,
28:34
self-control, what we often term as worldly success.
28:41
This is things that they develop in order to get by.
28:45
So when it comes to dealing with stress, dealing with complex
28:49
situations, at work, at politics, wherever, they are,
28:53
the ones who have the tool set ready to go, and that might even
28:59
look quite attractive to the outside, we are intimidated by
29:04
people like that. We might fear them, but we might
29:06
respect them. What we cannot do, we cannot
29:10
look inside of them. And often enough we can only
29:14
read in biographies and from people who know those people
29:18
very well that internally they're empty in brackets,
29:24
depressed or miserable, which is anxious.
29:30
The aggression often enough plays out in daily life anyway,
29:34
in relationships and in work. Those people who are successful,
29:38
they have not much shame to be aggressive towards others in the
29:44
workplace. OK, so since I come to talk
29:51
about how they deal with other people, let's focus on that.
29:55
So how does the interpersonal space, the interpersonal area of
29:59
people who employ the self, avoid and type, How does that
30:02
look like? Because they don't know
30:05
themselves, they can also not represent themselves
30:07
authentically. So the quality of the
30:13
interactive space that they create is marked by
30:17
inauthenticity. They wear a mask.
30:20
They develop a persona, a persona in psychology as a term
30:24
for developing, so to speak, a different person for the outside
30:30
people who know those people well.
30:32
If I'm a friend of someone who is a self avoidant type, I might
30:36
see them in social situations and wonder who is that person.
30:39
Because in a one-on-one situation where they have trust
30:42
and we have friends, they are completely different.
30:45
They might be more introvert, more insecure and so on and so
30:48
on. But suddenly we go to a party,
30:50
we go to some job event and they are eloquent and boasting and I
30:57
might not recognize them. This is the persona.
30:59
This is the inauthentic mask that they have learned to employ
31:03
and to use an intimidating social situations.
31:12
I would like to distinguish in this interpersonal realm two
31:16
types two again approaches of the self avoidant type.
31:20
One is the anxious avoidant approach.
31:23
These are people who stay at home.
31:26
They are withdrawn for them. Interpersonal situations,
31:30
especially with unknown people, are so uncomfortable that they
31:33
simply have learned to avoid them.
31:36
And the other type is the manipulative aggressive type.
31:40
And these are the ones that look successful, commutative,
31:45
attractive. All of those features that might
31:49
look enticing from the outside, but those people internally are
31:55
dissatisfied. Also those people, even though
31:59
they seem to manage those social situations amazingly, yes, they
32:03
get the attraction. And so on.
32:04
So this gives them a little bit of boost, but ultimately they
32:07
also go home and feel empty because they were not authentic
32:12
enough in those social situations to reap the rewards
32:15
of fulfilling the actual needs for acknowledgement and
32:18
appreciation in even more complex interpersonal realms.
32:27
In intimate relationships, How does that play out in intimate
32:32
relationships? The self avoidant type is
32:35
reduced basically to two possibilities.
32:37
One is to become regressive symbiotic.
32:43
They have the tendency to fuse with a partner, to choose
32:47
partners who are willing to fuse with them, and because I don't
32:52
know my needs, I don't know who I am.
32:56
I in a symbiotic relationship I can delegate delegate myself
33:01
knowledge to someone else. I will expect from my partner to
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take care of me. I expect for my partner to read
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my mind, to understand my needs even when I don't understand
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them and to satisfy them. And unfortunately often enough
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with people who have this as quite a pronounced strategy,
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they meet someone else who has the same strategy.
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So they live in this codependent symbiotic regressive state,
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unhealthy, dysfunctional state together.
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So this is the regressive symbiotic expression of self
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avoidance in an intimate relationship.
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The other type is the controlling narcissistic type
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approach quality, The controlling narcissistic quality
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in intimate relationships. Again, I don't know myself.
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I feel uncomfortable. I don't know how to deal with
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this discomfort. So I project this discomfort on
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my partner and let them suffer. This is my way out.
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This is my way of dealing with it.
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I come from work. I feel like shit because nothing
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that I do at work really satisfies my core.
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So I feel down, unappreciated, and so on.
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And then I make my partner feel down, unappreciated, and this
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gives me a certain amount of in quote toxic satisfaction.
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It's not a real satisfaction, but it takes the edge off a
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little bit. At least.
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I don't have to feel what I feel.
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I let the other feel what I feel.
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It's externalized. It's delegated in general, both
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of those in intimate relationships.
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They will display a fear of loss.
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They will display jealousy, and that they will display
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resentment. They will not be happy if their
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partner becomes independent. They will not be happy if their
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partner becomes successful because all of that is
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threatening our delicate interaction, intimacy that is
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predicated on very specific terms that either we're fused or
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I can force you to feel the discomfort that I don't want to
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feel. These are extreme cases, I admit
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that, But I want to show those this.
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Describe those extreme cases so that you develop the sensitivity
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to recognize it in others, maybe even to sometimes recognize it
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in yourself, and then to understand that those people or
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yourself are in lack of two things that actually are
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positive, which is an understanding of my needs or an
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implementation of virtues in my life, and to be practical.
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Both are good and a mixture of the two are good.
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It's good to have for certain fields of life and
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implementation of consciously chosen very resonant values.
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This is the aspect that makes me independent from circumstances,
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outside circumstances, career, being single or in relationship,
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whatever. All those outside circumstances
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or a little bit independent from the inside circumstances to not
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being forced to follow my feels, my feelings, my thoughts,
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wishes, expectations, worries and so on.
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But to have the calm there, a mix of this and a needs
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orientation, where I in parts know myself well, I know what my
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needs are, follow them, implement them, communicate them
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and thus become happy. And this is, I think, what we
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can try to achieve in our life. To have areas where we are calm
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and independent and others where we have the ability to become
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happy and satisfied. OK, this is it for today.
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I hope you've found the characterization of the self
37:13
avoidant type and also the two previous types interesting.
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Let me know if you have further questions and I hope to see you
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next time.