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Transcript

Series 7: The Contenders · The Next Reel Film Podcast

• 0:03
  Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
• 0:04
  Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
• 0:06
  Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends,
• 0:08
  Andy Nelson: our conversation begins.
• 0:15
  Pete Wright: Cats don't have nine lives.
• 0:20
  Trailer: Everyone gets a number at birth. Your number comes up. They know where you live. They come in the night.
• 0:29
  We're here to help you.
• 0:31
  Bearing gifts. You can't do this. Now all you have to do is stay alive.
• 0:39
  Trailer: It's kill or be killed. I'm going to win.
• 0:43
  Meet the
• 0:44
  Trailer: contenders. Dawn, Jeff, Connie, Lindsay, Tony, Franklin. Who's watching back? Because Tony's coming. One will win.
• 0:51
  Trailer: I'm a survivor.
• 0:52
  Trailer: The rest will die. What happened? Series seven.
• 0:56
  Trailer: Just thought I'd look these people up, you know, psych them out.
• 1:01
  Pete Wright: Andy, series seven, the contenders. This is the last in our people hunting people series.
• 1:07
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. A series that went by way too quickly. I've really enjoyed, which I I don't know what it says about me, but I've really enjoyed this series.
• 1:16
  Pete Wright: I have too, honestly. And that surprises me as well because, I mean, I was I I think it's because of sitting in the dark. I've been watching so many horror movies over the last year, year and a half that I'm a little bit numb to stuff that would have given me pause earlier. Like, for example, when the Hunger Games book came out and everybody was reading it, I didn't I was like, I don't wanna be a part of that kind of stuff. And then I devoured it.
• 1:39
  Like, Popular culture. Pop culture. Screw that. Yeah. No.
• 1:42
  And now people killing people is like especially kids. I'm all in.
• 1:49
  Andy Nelson: Oh, like, you are a dark person. Dark, dark person. Yeah.
• 1:53
  Pete Wright: So here we are, with series seven, the contenders. This is a a reality TV satire black comedy mockumentary, and and it's it's contemporaneous to our lived life, like, in terms of ties. It's not a futuristic dystopian thing.
• 2:10
  Andy Nelson: It's No. It's like a alternate present.
• 2:13
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's a good way to put it. It's an alternate present, and, it tells a story of these people who are just given a gun and told to go kill one another.
• 2:24
  And the last person standing is the big winner from writer director Daniel Minahan. How did the film strike you?
• 2:31
  Andy Nelson: I had a great time watching this. And I think it's because Minahan as I start as I was going through this, it clearly felt like Minahan was somebody who had spent some time in reality TV, had a sense of kind of how this type of story was told. And I mean, have to say this film was made in, I think, 02/2001, released in 02/2002, when the film was being shot. Like, Survivor hadn't even started airing yet. And so the types of reality TV, the game show types were really just not as prevalent as they would end up becoming over the next several decades.
• 3:06
  And so it's interesting to see a film that feels so much like the inevitable place where shows like survivor are going to move to. Because as people want more and more types of entertainment and they get tired of of seeing the same old same old, eventually, it's gonna get to a point where, yeah. Well, let's just get it to a point where they're killing each other. And, you know, that's the ultimate. And so it felt like I was watching a reality TV show with like the little bumpers and everything and coming up next, like teasing you for what you're about to see in the in the next part of the episode.
• 3:42
  It played so well. I had a blast watching it. I thought it was clever. They produce it in a way and script it in a way where how TV show producers actually do that same sort of scripting and building to draw you to certain characters and make other characters less interesting. Like, it it just played exactly like all that, and I I really had a great time with it.
• 4:04
  Pete Wright: Part of its success for me is in its aesthetic. And, you know, you're I'm watching it on some more demanding hardware, like upscaling. I want it to be bigger and bigger. And yet, this the the film is shot so competently on digital video to authentically mimic the TV aesthetics of the time that I I found I was able to let go of that pretty quickly. And I I found it really absorbing the act of watching these people just live their lives talking to the camera and no one having a problem with them just shooting at each other and the cameras chasing them, I I thought was sublime.
• 4:46
  Like, that was so deeply, darkly funny to me. Like, it's an it's a tight eighty six minute film, but I think there's something about the pacing with the commercial brake bumpers built in that makes it fly by. I felt like I I we had been watching twenty five minutes, and the movie was over.
• 5:04
  Andy Nelson: It is set up in an interesting way. I mean, it's funny because it you know, all the posters and everything, series seven, the contenders. But the show is called the contenders. We're watching series seven, and it happens to be a marathon. So instead of it ever actually saying on the screen, series seven, the contenders, it's always the contenders series seven marathon.
• 5:22
  Yeah. And I'm just like, okay. So anyway, the title is what it is, but it did feel like a marathon episode, like where they cut together essentially the highlights of an entire season into one hour and a half episodes to just kind of give us the whole thing. And it played so effectively. Like, I just I loved how it played.
• 5:40
  It gave us all of that same sense of the characters and everything. And it was really interesting in the way that it set up this, I don't think dystopian present, but this alternate present where this show is essentially a government sanctioned show where they have a national lottery to figure out what town they're gonna be doing it in, and then in that town, have a lottery to pick which of the citizens of the town are actually gonna be the participants of the show. And so we're getting this setup that's never addressed in the film of this society where, for whatever reason, the government has decided this is a game show that we want to say is an okay thing to put out there where people are gonna be killing each other, and we're gonna be the ones who pick it. Now, you you have to assume the producers of the show are very involved in that lottery because when you get somebody like Jeff, who happens to have a past relationship with Don, you're like, okay, there had to be something in the way that these producers forced that selection because they knew it would create a back a background for the characters for us to enjoy.
• 6:57
  But I love the way it sets up this this society that makes all of this okay. The passersby aren't shocked at all when Don walks into that convenience store right at the top of the film and kill a guy and then asks for bean dip. Like, they're more than anything, I think they're just either a, excited to see the cameras and everything come to where they are. Like, am I gonna be on TV? You know, you can see them, like, running home later to watch the episode and see if they made the cut.
• 7:27
  And two, just making sure that they're not in the line of fire.
• 7:29
  Pete Wright: Right? You know, I I think it begs a a question, Andy. Like, this this whole exploration of violence as entertainment and public spectacle. Like, this movie has both of those. Like, one, people are sitting at home watching TV and watching this happen.
• 7:43
  But two, to your point, like, they're getting involved in it. They are a part of the reality TV experience. The guy at the Quiky Mart, whatever it was, he's a part of it. These people are watching, and they don't feel necessarily threatened beyond Crossfire potentially. Right?
• 8:00
  But Right. Yeah. But ultimately, this is a a thing that we have already the the series seven exists in a post adaptation universe where people are already so accustomed with this kind of entertainment that they're just okay living in it and among it and in partnership with it because it's commerce, I guess. Is that a fair assessment?
• 8:24
  Andy Nelson: Commerce, but also entertainment and the spotlight. And I think that's part of it is, like, to a certain extent, it's like, the guy behind the counter at the convenience store likely sees that moment as part of his fifteen minutes of fame. Right? And and that's what I find so interesting about it because there is this sense in society where people are kind of looking at it like, it's okay to do a show where we kill people because it's on TV. And I might get to be on that show either as a contender and then be famous or just, you know, they're filming around me and, you know, that's gonna be you can see me in the in the background.
• 9:02
  And I think that's what's frightening about it because especially now, you know, twenty some years after this film came out, it feels like we're a lot closer to this than even at the time when they made the movie.
• 9:15
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Right. We're we're moving the wrong direction. Yeah. But is it I mean, I I guess there there's the question for each of us, I mean, individually.
• 9:24
  Why why am I attracted to this kind of media? Right? Why am I attracted to movies that portray this on screen? And I I think it's the other side of why I also love the movie Idiocracy. Right?
• 9:37
  It's that this it's so absurd. It actually is I find it a salve for the world around me right now anyway. Right? Like, it's so absurd that the real world seems more sane, and I think I need that. My mental health requires that.
• 9:58
  Andy Nelson: That's an interesting, interesting perspective because you are in this place where just these awful things are happening. And, yeah, it's we're drawn I mean, it's it's why do we watch why why do we listen to true crime podcasts? Why do we watch stories about crime and murder and all of this sort of stuff? And it's there is this sense of being drawn to these sorts of things of the, well, at least it's not me. It's that same sense of kind of horror movies.
• 10:26
  It it kind of you feel almost more alive when you're watching that sort of film and that awful stuff that's happening because it it makes you it connects you more to that sense of living and life that you that you have, you know? And so when you're seeing other people go through terrible things, you're like, at least it's not me, and I I'm I'm doing pretty good. Yeah. Right.
• 10:48
  Pete Wright: Right. Well and it's it it makes for an exploration of how media packaging normalizes crazy extreme behavior. Right? The fact that this has bumpers and stingers on either side of all of these horrific shootings is yet another example of how we numb ourselves to the message. Right?
• 11:08
  You know, Marshall McLuhan was right. And in so doing, gives us yet another kind of meta critique of American gun culture. Right? I mean, that's we we we can't mention this movie without talking about how easy it is for guns to just become an extra appendage for these competitors, so called competitors.
• 11:27
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It is it's an interesting look at the way that even on the show, these people end up creating their own justifications for everything. Right? Dawn, this is her third round. You know, she's so far killed 10 people, 10 previous contestants she was up against, and now she's up against these five.
• 11:47
  And so she is kind of the returning champion as they say. And she kind of is like, hey, I don't wanna be part of this, but I'll do what it takes to to win. She's pregnant. She's like, I I gotta save the baby. I'm doing it for my baby.
• 12:02
  Meanwhile, you have Sheila, who is the older nurse. I think Sheila's the nurse. Right? Or no, it's Connie. Connie.
• 12:11
  Pete Wright: It's Connie was the nurse?
• 12:12
  Andy Nelson: Connie's the nurse. Yeah. Okay. She's the angel of death. She's she's she but she what's so fascinating is like, she views herself as a very religious woman.
• 12:23
  And even when she talks about kind of some acts that she has done as a nurse, where she has helped quote, helped people with assisted suicides, you get this sense that you're like, is she? Like, what is she actually doing? But somehow she has she's created this this reality for herself where everything that she's doing is okay. She looks at Dawn as a complete crazy lady who is like a terrible terrible person, and sees everything that she's doing as sinful, and she's a she's an awful person and manipulative, and and that's I
• 13:03
  Trailer: think a
• 13:03
  Andy Nelson: fascinating glimpse into these characters that we get where where Connie really kind of paints this view for herself of how all these other people are so awful, and she is such a saint, where we really get the sense that, is Connie really a saint? No. But that's that's, I think, part of the way that these people start, especially once the cameras are on, they start kind of creating this sense of things.
• 13:29
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Right. When really Connie is just not quite as far along the competitor's evolutionary scale as Dawn is. Right? That Yeah.
• 13:38
  Connie is gonna end up in exactly the same place, and we see it. We see it when she, you know, she actually puts up a fight. She actually assassinates people. She's you know, she finds the same justification that Dawn did.
• 13:51
  Andy Nelson: Even going so far as to write these anonymous letters about, hey. If you show up at this place, I can help you. And that's another dark thing where she is willing to to create these these lies to other contestants to get them into a place where she can basically just have a turkey shoot and just pick them off one at a time.
• 14:12
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Which ended up being at a mall, a public place.
• 14:18
  Andy Nelson: Right?
• 14:18
  Pete Wright: Like, what an interesting choice for the film to take.
• 14:23
  Andy Nelson: Right? Absolutely.
• 14:25
  Pete Wright: You know, I wanted to turn attention to Jeff. Right? Because Jeff is the only one who had an intention for pacifism and the fortitude to stick it out because he was already going to die until the very end where he also had a change of heart. And I'm curious your take on his arc. Did you find that, where did that keep you in the film?
• 14:49
  Andy Nelson: Well, I I wanna talk about that, and we'll definitely part of this conversation we have to save because we're gonna have a whole other conversation about the end of the film, which I think is also doing some interesting and manipulative things with us, the viewer, and quote us, the TV viewing audience of this particular story.
• 15:10
  Pete Wright: Okay. That's fair.
• 15:11
  Andy Nelson: But but what I love about Jeff is that it does create this sense of this character who has kind of given up and he's ready to die. And I mean, to the point when they show up with their gun to give to him, say, you have been selected as a contender for the show. Like, he puts it to his head and and tries to blow his head off. He's just he's ready to just die and doesn't wanna be part of it, only to find out that, of course, it's it's not loaded. But what I find so fascinating about him is the fact that this is the storyline that feels like the producers were very much manipulative of the lottery system for this because Jeff has this backstory connection to Don.
• 15:50
  They had been like best friends outcasts in high school essentially with their fantastic love will tear us apart video that they that we see over the course of this. But also this romantic connection and this draw to each other that we see play out. And again, this is exactly what producers do with these reality shows. They find these sorts of connections so that they can, again, it's quote reality TV. They're just filming what's happening, but they're always nudging things in certain directions.
• 16:20
  And so the fact that Dawn and Jeff show up together, you get this draw between the two of them closer and closer until they're finally like, I care too much about you. Let's not let's not kill anymore, and let's go on the run essentially is what happens, which leads to that end where the two of them hold up a movie theater so that they can essentially get out of the country into a safe place. And so I find that to be a fascinating way that the story unfolds. Now, if we are to buy the end of the film as it's portrayed, when suddenly they quote lost the footage, and we're now watching a reenactment of what happened. And yeah, as you're saying, Jeff is the one who suddenly no longer wants to die, and he actually ends up ready to kill Dawn essentially, even though his wife ends up coming in and doing the job for him.
• 17:13
  Pete Wright: Explain talk more about that, though, because I think I I think that, you know, if we are to believe is another one of those, like, loaded statements. What do you think happened in the at the end of the film?
• 17:25
  Andy Nelson: There's what I think happened, and there's also what you can find out if you watch the deleted scenes of this. What I think happened when I watched this is that they put a bunch of audience members, real people. Like, one of my favorite bits was when they're on the phone to the producers, and they're shouting these demands, and all the theater patrons are like, yeah. And then she's just like, that means we're killing you, you idiots. It's like, it was so perfect.
• 17:54
  But, like, the way that I saw the end of the film is okay. So they put all of the audience people at risk, possibly even killing some of them. Who knows how far they ended up going? But my interpretation was, these two somehow did actually force the hand of the producers, the police, the country into a situation where they actually probably did find a way to escape and get out of the country. And the show was never going to depict that, and so they created a false reality of how things ended and came up with the story that could work.
• 18:32
  Now, the only thing that didn't make that work the way that I saw it is the fact that the very last scene of the film, we see, hey, Jeff's actually still alive, and now he's gonna be the returning champ for the next season. Yeah. Fantastic final moment of the film. So that kind of killed that for me a little bit, but I thought, okay, well, then maybe what happened is the cops had to come in. Did they kill Don?
• 18:55
  And now and and maybe shot Jeff, but he's okay, and now he's gonna be forced to come back. Anyway, something like that, I figured had happened. Now the deleted and or the alternate ending of the film that happened is that Don and and Jeff somehow get out of the theater, I guess. Like, they they flee, and the audience members outside are so angry at them for not kind of following through on the rules of the game or whatnot that the audience members or the the fans start beating them. I what sounds like what happens is Don gets beat to death.
• 19:31
  Jeff gets beat within an inch of his life, but is okay. And then the producers ended up essentially, because when we at the very end, we see Jeff's wife, is his wife, Doria. Right?
• 19:44
  Trailer: Mhmm.
• 19:45
  Andy Nelson: She says something like, she's going to jail and she's like, they framed me. They framed me for this. Apparently, what happened or the way that you can interpret it with that alternate ending is that Doria actually is framed for killing Dawn even though it was the fans who killed Dawn. And so she's put in jail. Jeff wakes up in the hospital and essentially finds out he's still alive and and now has to compete again.
• 20:09
  So however you slice it, whichever interpretation of the ending you watch, the only way I I can see it is that something else happened, and the producers wanted to create something that was still good television.
• 20:22
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I I think hearing you talk about it, and I haven't seen that extra ending. But the thing that I I think I prefer about it is that it leans heavily on the fact that the audience the audience is complicit. Right? All along, we're talking about this movie where the audience is a part of it because they are sort of voyeuristically engaged in the experience of the contenders.
• 20:49
  And here, they have a a literal hand in the direction of the show. And I think I prefer the bleakness, the blackness of that ending to the lost footage piece. I don't know. Do you have a do you have a position?
• 21:06
  Andy Nelson: I mean, I can definitely see what you're saying because in in the alternate ending version, yeah, the audience is very complicit because they're literate literally the ones that beat these two down for not basically doing what they're expecting expected to be doing. As opposed to just the producers who are complicit and saying, we wanna deliver something that the audiences are gonna be happy with or or you will give us better ratings. Who knows? I mean, you hear all these sorts of things that they the reasons for why they do these things. I'm fine either way.
• 21:38
  I like the idea of the producers. I I guess the version I like is the one that we ended up watching because it feels exactly like what we would get as a reality show. Like
• 21:51
  Pete Wright: Yes. The dramatic reenactment fits right in.
• 21:54
  Andy Nelson: The producers do some dramatic reenactment, rewrite the whole ending to give it something that they are happier with. It just played well for me. I think if I had seen that other version, I think I I might have scratched my head a little bit going, Okay. Like, I I I feel like and I haven't seen it. I just read about it, but I feel like it may have worked better on paper.
• 22:15
  Yeah. I I can see that.
• 22:17
  Pete Wright: It it certainly works better in podcast for me just hearing about it.
• 22:21
  Andy Nelson: Yeah.
• 22:23
  Pete Wright: I do love how the movie you know, we've already talked about some of the some of the sort of format issues, like committing to filming sort of digital video to mimic the the authenticity of of the era and the platform. I like how it switches between that. That is the professional standard, and then it'll switch to, like, surveillance style footage. I like that we have access to the surveillance cameras. I think that gives it an interesting, another interesting visual texture.
• 22:53
  You know, in terms of the the chase cameras and integrating other contenders, camera people into each shot is really fun. This is super highlighted when she gets out of the car and she's chasing Jeff after he makes the commitment, and the camera person runs out into the middle of the street, Jeff's camera person, to film him running away.
• 23:14
  Andy Nelson: Tony. That's Tony.
• 23:15
  Pete Wright: Oh, you're right. That was Tony and his family.
• 23:17
  Andy Nelson: When he kidnaps his baby.
• 23:18
  Pete Wright: He kidnaps his baby. Right. So she she runs out. She's trying to shoot him, but the cameraman's in the way, and she's getting very, very upset. I think that was such a a great bit.
• 23:27
  I love that the show, the contenders, is not afraid to work the behind the scenes into the the sort of front of house shot. I think that that works really, really well. It's not like survivor, you know, it where we know there are 400 people on the beach during
• 23:46
  Trailer: these competitions,
• 23:47
  Pete Wright: and we're never going to see them. This is, I I think, makes it grittier and more sort of real.
• 23:53
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. No. And I I think that the look definitely lends to that. And the fact that we are kind of having those behind the scenes moments with the camera people throughout, where sometimes, like, she's talking to the camera people, trying to get them to help with something, and they're like, I can't do that. And they're like, Donna would get so frustrated.
• 24:10
  Just like, god, like, forced to have to do these things on her own. Yeah. It's it was nice to see the way that they integrated that, and and I bought into it. Like, I bought into that world of the behind the scenes, the way that they, played that.
• 24:24
  Pete Wright: Do you know what they nailed the best is the is the extreme close-up interviews. Right? Like, in the car where the camera is framing just like eyes, nose, and mouth and and trying to get them to talk about something really intimate or important to them. I think that those styles of interviews are so just rampant in these kinds of of shows. And I think it's, I think it worked really, really well to to once again sell me on the fact that this is a real property.
• 24:53
  I finished this thing, and I felt like this was a real show that I could go watch.
• 24:58
  Andy Nelson: Well, likewise, they have the post interviews, like, after a scene has happened where they'd actually do a sit down interview with somebody to talk about, like, what they had just gone through. Like, that is, again, another trope of this type of programming that they do so well. What I find interesting, especially based on what you said, is that Daniel Minnehan, when he came up with this idea, initially actually pitched it as a TV show. It would be like a fictional version of a reality show, and I guess that it just wasn't sexy enough for the networks at the time. They didn't think that something like that would actually play properly.
• 25:34
  And so so then he ended up just having to pitch it continuously for a number and that was like the, like, mid to late nineties that he pitched that. So it took a few more years before figure finally finding a way to get this thing out there.
• 25:48
  Pete Wright: That's crazy. It you know, it's one of those things. I can see why it would be troublesome because it's almost too real for TV. Right? In the fact that it's completely fictionalized, I can see how it you might get a little bit of a war war of the worlds vibe.
• 26:06
  Andy Nelson: Right. Well, some people certainly, if they had never heard of it and just are flipping channels and land on it, they probably would be left like, oh my god. What have we become?
• 26:15
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Which is exactly the question we should ask, but not for that reason.
• 26:21
  Andy Nelson: Right. Right. Well, especially the way that the show plays itself out. Like, these characters are like, we get some pretty cheesy moments off and on with the characters, some behind the scenes moments of people living their lives, some things that just seem really, like, over the top funny the way it ends up playing out. Like, we never really spend much time with Franklin, but it definitely is clear that he's kind of like a conspiratorial mindset sort of person.
• 26:47
  Like, he's got his windows covered in aluminum foil. He's the one who just before he gets killed, starts spouting off about conspiracy theories and all that. So you're getting some interesting things about all these characters. But the thing that it always takes fairly seriously is the fact that, like, when they're killing people, they like, they're just dead. And like, that's the end of it, you know?
• 27:09
  Like, Merritt Weaver, she's the first one to get killed there when Franklin comes at her, and she's just dead. And and then Franklin's next, and just the two of them are just laying there dead. And that's just like it's just the reality. And so it might play for laughs and reality show response as you're watching a show like this, but it never it never takes the deaths too over the top. It always feels I mean, maybe the one time when Merritt Weaver goes to call in her first kill.
• 27:40
  Like, that might be the one time where she has to call that little their 800 number to the the the studio to to register that she got the kill sort of thing. Like, that might be the one time. But largely, I think it plays, it plays pretty well. It plays seriously enough to to buy into what they're doing.
• 27:58
  Pete Wright: So let's talk about Brooke. Can we?
• 28:00
  Andy Nelson: Brooke Smith playing Dawn. Yes.
• 28:02
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Brooke Smith, who we're actually going to be talking about again very soon.
• 28:07
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. A couple weeks.
• 28:08
  Pete Wright: In a couple weeks, and, I'm excited about that even earlier.
• 28:12
  Andy Nelson: Silence of the lambs. Right? Silence of the lambs.
• 28:14
  Pete Wright: What do you think of Brooke Smith? If there is a if there is a woman who fits in the category of that face, for me, it's Brooke Smith.
• 28:22
  Andy Nelson: She is totally like one of those that that guys, but a that gal. Like, she is somebody that I always register as soon as I see her, and my brain always goes to it rubs lotion on his skin. Like, it just it's straight from Silence of the Lambs. I just remember her so like that performance is just so burned into my head. But she's done a ton of other things.
• 28:42
  She was in Vanya on 40 Second Street. She was in in her shoes. Interstellar. She's a face that I know and recognize and generally enjoy. And watching her play this pregnant woman who's literally she's about to she ends up giving birth over the course of this game show.
• 28:59
  Like, that's how pregnant she is. It played well, and I just thought she was perfect for the role.
• 29:04
  Pete Wright: I did too. She for me, the the longest run that she had on a TV show was her time on Grey's Anatomy, and that happened to be when my wife and I were watching Grey's Anatomy quite regularly. So we had a great run with her as, doctor Hahn. But you mentioned Vanya on 40 Second Street. I wanna lean in on that because I think you watched that because I love it so much.
• 29:27
  Andy Nelson: I haven't
• 29:27
  Trailer: yet. What? Oh god. Andy.
• 29:31
  Andy Nelson: I have I I have it waiting for me.
• 29:34
  Pete Wright: Do you know what we need sidebar? We need when this happens, this is gonna be we need to change the structure of the show just in a little bit. When this happens, when there is a movie that we've been talking about for so long, we need a trade week where I just think you should go watch this movie right now, move it up in your list, and in exchange, I'll do the same with any movie you pick. I just have to go watch it this week.
• 29:58
  Andy Nelson: Wow. Okay.
• 29:59
  Pete Wright: But so if I tell you, go watch Vanya on 40 Second Street, what do you want me to watch this week? I'm writing it down. I'm dead serious about that.
• 30:07
  Andy Nelson: You're gonna watch r r r.
• 30:09
  Pete Wright: Oh, absolutely. R r I'm writing it. I'm pen in hand. I'm writing it down.
• 30:15
  Andy Nelson: See that. I see that.
• 30:16
  Pete Wright: This is serious. Exclamation point. And that's not even in the title.
• 30:20
  Andy Nelson: I'm just yeah. That's I'm excited for you.
• 30:22
  Pete Wright: I'm excited for you. Wallace Shawn, man.
• 30:26
  Trailer: I know. I know.
• 30:27
  Trailer: He's so great.
• 30:29
  Pete Wright: Oh, you're probably gonna hate it. Right.
• 30:32
  Andy Nelson: Now it's been on my list since I saw Drive My Car. I I am like, I need to invest some time in that story. So I, better understand some of those elements, when they bring it up in Drive My Car.
• 30:44
  Pete Wright: Okay. Good. Well, I feel like I'm gonna win
• 30:48
  Andy Nelson: that one. Well, maybe you should watch Drive My Car.
• 30:50
  Pete Wright: Are you changing your pick right now?
• 30:52
  Andy Nelson: I think I am. I think I have to. I'll save RRR for another time. You're gonna watch drive my car because it ties in so well to Von Young on 40 Second Street.
• 31:00
  Pete Wright: Drive my car, Ryusuke Hamaguchi. Yes. Right? Okay. Rent.
• 31:05
  I'm gonna rent it so that I can watch it on the Vision Pro. I'm gonna big screen this thing right now. Look. I'm touch ID ing. Done this week.
• 31:15
  Andy Nelson: Look. Look at that. Just rented it. Alright. You got thirty days.
• 31:18
  Pete Wright: I've got seven days. I gotta talk to you about this again. I'm just saying,
• 31:22
  Andy Nelson: in the scope of rentals, have thirty days. Oh,
• 31:25
  Pete Wright: you have no idea how seriously I take my rentals.
• 31:27
  Andy Nelson: If you really wanna push it, hit start now, and then you get thirty one hours.
• 31:33
  Pete Wright: If I really wanna push it, I'm gonna try and watch it and continue this podcast with you right now. That's how serious I am. Okay.
• 31:41
  Andy Nelson: Oh my gosh.
• 31:42
  Pete Wright: I feel great about this plan. Yes. I love this. The swap. Alright.
• 31:45
  Andy Nelson: So that was Brooke Smith.
• 31:47
  Pete Wright: Yeah. We love Brooke Smith.
• 31:48
  Andy Nelson: Merritt Weaver plays our 18 year old who's brought into this, and the best bits with her are the fact that her parents drive her to all the different areas that she's going, whether it's the mall or the golf course or over to Franklin's house or trailer, and the conversations that she has with her parents, the guns that they're providing for her, like everything about that relationship. Especially, like, over the moment when her dad walks in on her her boyfriend having sex Yeah. And then just, like, continues to have this conversation with his daughter while the boyfriend is in the background just slowly getting dressed. Man, these scenes played so funny. Yeah.
• 32:24
  So funny. I I have to
• 32:26
  Pete Wright: say Merritt Weaver is on the brain right now because she is playing one of the best roles on severance. She's playing Gretchen George, Dylan's outie wife. It is just a lovely and complex portrayal. We don't get enough of her on screen, but every scene where she is she is with him in the intimacy room is just perfect. And to see her in this movie so many years ago is jarring.
• 32:54
  It is really jarring. She's just wonderful, and I feel like I I need to go back and do a do another review.
• 33:03
  Andy Nelson: She's just done so many roles in films, over her several decades in the industry. It's just it's fun to see her in this very early one. It's she did she was great
• 33:13
  Pete Wright: in it. Yeah. She had such, oh my god, such a great run-in in the teens. Right? I mean, goodness.
• 33:20
  Charlie says, welcome to Marwan, marriage story. She's just wonderful.
• 33:24
  Andy Nelson: Birdman. Yeah. Yeah. Tiny furniture. Yeah.
• 33:27
  She did lots and lots of stuff.
• 33:29
  Pete Wright: Yeah. And of course, Walking Dead.
• 33:32
  Andy Nelson: Oh, yes. We talked about Connie. That's Mary Lou Mary Louise Burke who plays Connie. She's a face that has been kind of like a somebody who's popped up in bit parts in all sorts of things over the years. I enjoy seeing her here.
• 33:48
  She does a great job in as the role of Connie. We've talked about her a bit, but, yeah, I I had fun with her. Did you like her in the role?
• 33:55
  Pete Wright: Very much because and I I mean, I think I mentioned it. I think the whole idea of the way she convinces herself to play the game and to use her skills as a nurse to participate, I thought was really great. And and the fact that she had a gun, but she chose injections. And she says early on, I think what makes her complex and questionable is in her interview, she says, allowed to camera, sure. I've helped people die, which makes me think this is gonna come easy to her.
• 34:26
  Right? Like, she's Yeah. Has probably taken others' lives into her capable injectory hands.
• 34:33
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well, she clearly has no problem when she when we first see her inject Tony and kill Tony. Yeah. Right.
• 34:41
  Pete Wright: So I I think it was, I think she's she is a really fun character, and and the fact that she, you know, she came to play makes her compelling.
• 34:52
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. No. She was great. And then Glenn Fitzgerald plays Jeff. He's also like, a lot of these faces are people that I've seen in other things before, but all generally, they're kind of like smaller roles.
• 35:05
  So, you know, in this it's fun in this independent film to see them with bigger roles. I I thought he did a great job here.
• 35:10
  Pete Wright: Me too. And he's been in a number of things that I think are fantastic. Right? I mean, he did long ago, Sixth Sense, The Ice Storm, Flirting With Disaster. Those are these are his top four.
• 35:21
  Flirting With Disaster and Dirty Sexy Money, The Show. All of them fantastic. Like, he's just great seeing him old. You know? I feel like this is this is one of those all of these characters are revisiting them at a very, very young age, and it's it's fun.
• 35:36
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. And then there's Daniel Minnehan, our, writer director behind this film. What's interesting is you kind of look through his career is, you know, we talked about I shot Andy Warhol when we were doing our Mary Heron series, and he actually wrote it with her. And I think he co, co or second unit director of the film. So, you know, he in in some capacity, we I I can't remember if we mentioned him when we talked about that movie, but this was early on in his career when he was working on getting independent films off the ground and everything.
• 36:11
  And it was kind of after, like, right after this film, when he had this shift into television that really ended up becoming his stock in trade. I mean, Feet Under, The l Word, Deadwood, those are like the first few TV shows that he started working on, and then just kind of kept going from there. Grey's Anatomy, Game of Thrones, Homeland, House of Cards, American Crime Story, all the way up to more recent things like, Fellow Travelers and Halston. So very, very busy in TV and, very well thought of in the TV circles.
• 36:49
  Pete Wright: And it's it's funny. Grey's Anatomy and, Ray Donovan, I think that's a that you can kind of see where their where Brooke Smith's path continues to cross with his after this movie. It's interesting to see their lines.
• 37:06
  Andy Nelson: And I think I read somewhere that he actually wrote that role for her.
• 37:10
  Pete Wright: Yeah. And Interesting. I can see it.
• 37:12
  Andy Nelson: What's yeah. What's funny is that, he named her Don Legardo after like an old friend from high school, I think. And the producers were concerned, you know, because you always go through these rights and titles Clearances. Clearances. And they were concerned that they were naming her after a real person.
• 37:31
  And so he actually had to reach out to Dawn and get permission from her, like written permission to use the name because Brooke had already kind of connected to the name and just felt like started working on that character as Don Legardo and really wanted it. So they they got permission from the real Don Legardo, and there you go.
• 37:51
  Pete Wright: Good good on you, Don Legardo.
• 37:53
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. That's great.
• 37:54
  Pete Wright: That's a that's a thing. We should see if we can get an interview with her.
• 38:01
  Andy Nelson: But, yeah, going back to Daniel, I just like you can clearly get a sense that this is a person who understands how TV works. I mean, obviously, all these shows that he works on aren't the reality show types of shows, but he knows how to craft a story in that amount of time. And putting this movie together, I think, just falls in line with that understanding of how to tap into audience expectations in that small format because everything that he's doing here just fits right in line with the world of reality television at the time, 02/2001, and continued, like, as it's going on.
• 38:39
  Pete Wright: You know, it's interesting so interesting about Minnehan is just how little of his personal life is public. Right? His history is made of credits. You know, we know that he went to the school of visual arts in Manhattan and graduated with a BFA in 1987, and that's pretty much it. And then it's just credits, credits, credits, credits.
• 39:02
  And, I mean, I think that's really laudable right now. Like, he's a guy who just exists for the catalog of work that he creates, and, I think he's he's a fascinating apparently, a kind of a quiet personality.
• 39:16
  Andy Nelson: I would imagine that you find that with a lot of of TV directors though, like, who aren't necessarily like the the big film directors who then also end up directing TV like Walter Hill. But the fact that he is somebody who is just kind of like a TV director who just you can guarantee you'll bring in, he'll direct a great episode, and then he goes on to the next thing. I I think that he's probably just made a strong career of just that. And so it's you just haven't had as much of the digging into all the personal details of his life.
• 39:49
  Pete Wright: It's just I I mean, I think it's it's interesting. He's, there are no no controversies, no no cancellations. He just seems like a really good guy.
• 39:59
  Andy Nelson: That's always nice to hear these days.
• 40:01
  Pete Wright: Yeah.
• 40:03
  Andy Nelson: Oh my gosh. Well, I think it's a fascinating film. I definitely think it's one that is worth checking out. It's not easily available. Like, it came out on DVD, and you can probably still find used copies on eBay or Amazon, places like that.
• 40:20
  But otherwise, like the only version of it that's that's out there is a DVD rip that's on YouTube that is, you know, pretty low quality. I mean, it's still you're watching TV quality production, so it plays okay. But it's it this is something that I think would be interesting to see get a little more notice because I think people would enjoy watching it. And I don't know. I feel like there is this sense to crafting a story like this that just I mean, they never ever step out of the frame of the TV show.
• 40:52
  Like, we never get that. And so you're just watching a show all the way up to the end of the promotion for series eight. And what a fascinating, like, way to just buckle down and go all in on this concept. Again, they never give us a sense of this world and why this is okay in this particular alternate present. But because of all that, I just felt like it played even better.
• 41:18
  It just created this sense of this space that I just I I bought into.
• 41:23
  Pete Wright: I think so too. It's it's a funny movie. Right? It it to me, it it works so much better as a as a satire and a social commentary than it does a chase thriller. Right?
• 41:33
  It it just it seems to be soberly lampooning all the right things and poking at all the right things. I had my experience on YouTube. I thought it was pretty good. Like, I watched it on the headset kind of as big as I could get it. And I I think you're right.
• 41:48
  The format, the choices they made for the format made it feel appropriately dated. It didn't feel necessarily like I was struggling to get through a horrible, noisy, old print that should, by all rights, have been cleaned up. It it felt like this is what I would have been watching on TV at the time. And, and so I really, really enjoyed it. The I I think in that regard, the the format really enhances the satirical message and to the point that they never step out of the frame, awesome point.
• 42:18
  Like, I I think that's that's fascinating. It does make me wonder, how would the movie you you give Dan a bunch of money and say, remake this movie right now. Like, what elements of today's media landscape do you throw in to this movie? Obviously, there are a lot more cameras. The message on violence is probably just more extreme, but I
• 42:41
  Andy Nelson: don't think it's any different. I'm not even sure if there are more cameras. Well, maybe, but I I would imagine that you'd also have the people just using their own phones.
• 42:49
  Pete Wright: That's exactly what I'm talking about. Like, are cameras literally in everyone's pocket.
• 42:53
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. Right. Drones. Yeah.
• 42:55
  There's so many different ways they can be crafting a story like this. And I'm curious, like, what especially, I mean, in our pre show chat, we brought up the fact that Edgar Wright is remaking the Runny Man. And you wonder in a world where a game show is out in the public on the streets, are they tapping into found footage type of of production in that sort of thing where anybody watching the show, if they see Dawn running by the house, they can pick up their phone and film it and post it on their socials and tag it, and the network can pull that footage into their own feed and use it. And and suddenly, it's like every single person, like you're like you said, there's cameras everywhere. How does that get integrated into the storytelling?
• 43:42
  I think really interesting.
• 43:43
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I I enjoyed the movie. I enjoyed the hell out of it. I thought it was just really innovative, and it was a great way to cap this particular exploration of our manhunting man, most dangerous game series. I thought it was great.
• 43:55
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. And we haven't even brought up that Will Arnett was the was the narrator and comes in at the end. That was
• 44:01
  Pete Wright: So good.
• 44:02
  Andy Nelson: Just perfect way to cap it off. Well, it's a great film. I'm glad we had it on the list. And I guess with that, we will be right back. But first, our credits.
• 44:23
  Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Fable Forte, Russo, Ty Simon, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at the -numbers.com, box office mojo Com, I m b b Com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
• 45:04
  Andy Nelson: Welcome back to another heart pounding episode of the next real merch hunt. I'm your host, Andy Nelson. And today, we're diving into the cutthroat world of cinematic merchandise. Our contestants have been chosen at random from a pool of diehard movie fans, each eager to get their hands on the most exclusive limited edition designs inspired by the films we love. But there's a twist.
• 45:24
  Only one contestant will walk away with the ultimate prize package. The rules are simple. Navigate the treacherous landscape of the next real.com slash merch, hunt down your favorite designs, and add them to your cart. But be warned, your fellow contestants are on the same mission, and they won't hesitate to snatch up those one of a kind items before you do. Will you opt for a design from our filmmaker filmography series celebrating the visionary works of legendary directors like Akira Kurosawa, John Carpenter, Sergio Leone, and Kubrick?
• 45:52
  Or perhaps you'll show off your geeky side with the Pac Tech shirt from Real Genius. Maybe you'll take a chance on the Blood Moon Centennial celebration design from Messiah of Evil or the classic Rusty the European Tour shirt from National Lampoon's European Vacation. The choice is yours. But remember, in this game, hesitation means defeat. To raise the stakes even higher, we've expanded our product lineup.
• 46:14
  Contenders can now hunt for designs on a wide range of apparel and merchandise from t shirts to tapestries and everything in between. The possibilities are endless, but so are the risks. So, contenders, are you ready to enter the arena? Head to the next reel.com/merch now and let the hunt begin. Remember, every purchase not only grants you a piece of movie history, but also helps support the next reel as we continue to explore the world of cinema one film at a time.
• 46:41
  Who will emerge victorious in this battle for cinematic supremacy? Tune in next time to find out. Until then, happy hunting, hunting, and may the odds be forever in your favor.
• 46:52
  Pete Wright: It's award time, Andy. How to do at award season?
• 46:55
  Andy Nelson: You know, for the type of film for the independent release that it had, it did okay for itself. Three wins with four other nominations. At the Golden Trailer Awards, it actually won two there. One, both for the Red Bands trailer. One, it won for the trashiest trailer, and it won for the best independent trailer.
• 47:13
  At Sweden's Fantastic Film Fest, it won the audience award for best feature film. At the Edgar Allan Poe Awards, it was nominated for best motion picture but lost to memento. At the Deauville Film Festival, was nominated for grand special prize but lost to Hedwig and the Angry Inch. At the Gihon International Film Festival, was nominated for best feature, the Grand Prix Asturias, but lost to Dog Days. And last but not least at the Gotham Awards, it was nominated for the Open Palm Award, but lost to a tie between Hedwig and the Angry Inch and the Believer.
• 47:41
  Pete Wright: Oh, we've seen several of those.
• 47:43
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. You know? Yes. We've seen quite a number of those when we did our, our series on the best cinematography nominees at the Independent Spirit Awards from from 02/2002.
• 47:53
  Pete Wright: I think those are all probably good choices. Yeah. And I still like this movie. How to do at the box office? It make I mean, obviously, it did well enough for Minnehan to get some notice for more work.
• 48:12
  Andy Nelson: True. Yeah. This is really a perfect example of an indie Sundance film. They really unfortunately, for this conversation, they don't publish much budget information. Minnehan premiered this movie at Sundance two thousand one where it was picked up and then released limited 03/02/2001 on two screens opposite the Mexican and Sea Spot Run, not to mention other limited releases of the caveman's Valentine and the widow of Saint Pierre.
• 48:35
  They would expand this to 10 screens over its few weeks in theaters, but not enough to make any sort of dent. In the end, the movie went on to earn a hundred $95,000 domestically and a hundred and 5,000 internationally for a total gross of 537,000 in today's dollars. Again, no idea how well it did, but I have to imagine it ended up being a loss at the box office, which is unfortunate. But as you said, it showed what Daniel could do.
• 49:00
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I I that's a huge bummer that it's a loss at the box office.
• 49:05
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Presumed presumed loss.
• 49:08
  Pete Wright: You know, your presumed is as good as a fact. Right? Come on. Well, again, I had a great time, and I it surprised me. It really surprised me.
• 49:20
  I thought when the when the movie started, was like, what has he gotten me into? That's what I said out loud. And, it was worth it.
• 49:26
  Andy Nelson: It start it started so perfectly. Like, it even had the little countdown at the beginning and everything. It was great.
• 49:31
  Pete Wright: It was great.
• 49:32
  Andy Nelson: Well, I had a great time with this. Lots of fun closing out this series. It was a fun series to to jump into, and, definitely a series that I hope we return to down the road. Me too. So we'll be right back for our ratings, but first, here's the trailer for next week's movie.
• 49:48
  Kicking off our Hannibal Lecter series, it's Michael Mann's Manhunter.
• 50:00
  Trailer: Intruder entered through kitchen sliding door. Nationwide victims. Guys, this is Will Graham of the FBI. One killer.
• 50:15
  Pete Wright: This is what the subject's teeth look like.
• 50:38
  Trailer: Have you ever seen blood on the moonlight well? Multiple trails. Just you and me now, sport. One hunter. I'm gonna find him.
• 50:54
  Damn it. FBI agent,
• 51:05
  Pete Wright: In a world where podcast listeners merely survive on weekly episodes
• 51:10
  Trailer: Only the strongest. Can become Next Real members. Welcome to The ultimate film podcast challenge.
• 51:18
  Pete Wright: Where ordinary listeners transform into elite supporters.
• 51:22
  Trailer: With access to the most exclusive content in podcast history. Do you have what it takes to join the ranks of our champions? No one gets eliminated and no one dies, but only members experience the
• 51:35
  Pete Wright: full next real advantage. Contestants receive
• 51:40
  Trailer: Bonus episodes
• 51:41
  Pete Wright: that the general public
• 51:42
  Trailer: Will never hear. Hear. Early access. Two episodes while others Wake in agony. Agony.
• 51:49
  Exclusive in episode content that will blow your mind. Your very own personal podcast feed customized for maximum listening efficiencies. Only the most dedicated contenders will experience ad free versions of select episodes. Pure uninterrupted film analysis,
• 52:10
  Pete Wright: access
• 52:11
  Trailer: to live stream recording sessions where you can witness the Podcast magic. It happens. Exclusive channels in our Discord community where you'll connect with fellow survivors of the podcast battlefield. And the ultimate prize, the satisfaction of directly supporting the podcast you love. The competition is fierce.
• 52:35
  The rewards are extraordinary. Will you become the next real member contender, or will you remain the nameless masses, forever wondering what secrets lie behind the membership wall? The choice is yours. Join now at truestory.fm/join and change your destinies forever. Actual competition exists.
• 53:00
  All members receive identical benefits. No elimination rounds. The Next Reel does not condone reality TV violence. If Pete and Andy knew what terms and conditions were, they would most certainly apply. Pretty much just sign up, and thank you very, very much.
• 53:14
  Pete Wright: Letterbox, Andy. Okay. What are you gonna do for this movie? Letterbox.com/TheNextReal. That's where you can find our HQ page.
• 53:20
  And here we are. How do we apportion our stars and bars? Stars and hearts
• 53:26
  Andy Nelson: Stars and bars. For this movie? Signing it up for the military. Mhmm. I really enjoyed this movie.
• 53:33
  It's it's interesting going through old reviews like Roger Ebert wasn't as much a fan. He still gave it two and a half, but he also felt like it it played its one thing and it played it too long. Like but I'm just like, for me, it was perfect. I thought it delivered exactly how it needed to deliver. It felt like, I don't know, more connected to our present today than perhaps maybe it did back in 02/2001.
• 53:57
  I loved it. I had a great time with it. I'm kind of torn. Is it four, four and a half? I think I'm gonna go four for now, and maybe down the road, I'll bump it up.
• 54:05
  Pete Wright: I am right with you at four stars and a heart. I really, really enjoyed it. I I think it's a super satisfying watch, and it's absolutely one I'm going to watch again and just delight in introducing people to. And you're right. I mean, maybe does it ever become a five star movie?
• 54:24
  Maybe. Maybe it does.
• 54:26
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Who knows? Well, that will average out to four stars in a heart over at our account on Letterbox, which is at the next reel. You can find me there at soda creek film, and you can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about series seven, The Contenders?
• 54:41
  We would love to hear your thoughts. Hop into the Show Talk channel over in our Discord community, where we will be talking about the movie this week.
• 54:47
  Pete Wright: When the movie ends,
• 54:49
  Trailer: our conversation begins.
• 55:06
  Andy Nelson: Letterbox giveth, Andrew. As letterbox always doeth.
• 55:10
  Pete Wright: Alright. What are you how did you approach your hunt for the perfect survivor review?
• 55:16
  Andy Nelson: I went high. I went to the five star reviews to see who out there loves it that much.
• 55:22
  Pete Wright: And I actually I worry that you and I might have found the same review.
• 55:26
  Andy Nelson: Kobus 15?
• 55:27
  Pete Wright: Dogface boy.
• 55:29
  Andy Nelson: Okay. I'm on Kobus 15. Alright. Go ahead. So I I liked Dogface Boys also, and I almost went with it.
• 55:36
  But I went with Cobas fifteen's, and this is Cobas 15 has reviewed it several times. This is from 09/12/2024, '5 stars in the heart. I found it. I found my favorite found footage movie and my favorite killing game movie, l o l.
• 55:53
  Trailer: How deep. Yes.
• 55:58
  Pete Wright: Okay. Well, mine's a little bit longer from Dog Face Boy. It's a five star and a heart. The kind of perfectly imperfect film where I can stick my fingers in my ears and la la la my way through the bits that have problems since there's so much else I like about it. How can you not adore a movie that basically takes a break halfway through to play a pretentious goth new romantic homemade short film music video for love will tear us apart?
• 56:22
  The only issue I have with series seven is that every time I revisit it, which has been a lot of times, the real world keeps shifting to the state where the absurdity of the parody of reality TV presented here keeps becoming less ridiculously absurd and over the top and more believable. Fab Girls Against Boys soundtrack too. We didn't even mention the Girls Against Boys soundtrack, but it was great. It
• 56:46
  Andy Nelson: was great. Perfect for the movie.
• 56:48
  Pete Wright: So well done, Doc Face Boy. So good. Thanks, letterboxed.