Latest / The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke / 126: Dr. Michelle Jeffries - Eczema "Leaky Skin"? A Dermatologist’s Quantum Approach to Healing

Transcript

126: Dr. Michelle Jeffries - Eczema "Leaky Skin"? A Dermatologist’s Quantum Approach to Healing · The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke

4:59
Meredith Oke: Doctor Michelle Jeffries, welcome to the QVC
5:02
podcast.
5:04
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Thank you so much. I've been so excited about
5:06
this conversation.
5:08
Meredith Oke: So have I. Because we have never had a
5:12
dermatologist on the podcast because you, you
5:18
dermatologists are the toughest people to find.
5:22
Who are, who are willing to acknowledge that
5:25
maybe it's okay to go outside without SPF 9000
5:29
covering all of your skin. So I appreciate your
5:33
open mindedness.
5:34
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yes, yes, there's definitely some open
5:37
mindedness. We're not all close minded, but yes.
5:42
Meredith Oke: So let's start how you got into the, your journey
5:48
and how you came to, to focus on skin because you
5:52
started out studying something else, is that
5:54
right? And then you.
5:55
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Oh, yeah.
5:58
Meredith Oke: Tell us, tell us the story.
6:01
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yeah, so I, I always tell my patients that I
6:04
wasn't born a dermatologist because I feel like
6:08
sometimes when they're there they're intimidated
6:11
and they're like, oh, like she's always been sun
6:14
protected and she's, you know, always done these
6:17
things a certain way. And you know, I wasn't
6:20
like, I, I tanned, I used to lay out in the sun.
6:23
My dad and I used to compete for tans when I was
6:25
younger. I did the tanning beds, I did the whole
6:28
bit. And so just to kind of ease the comfort of,
6:33
you know, patients and things, like, I'm a real
6:36
person, I've been through those things. And I
6:40
mean, my journey into medicine was kind of
6:42
interesting to start with. I had this like, kind
6:45
of odd fascination when I was younger with the
6:47
encyclopedia and that human body section where it
6:50
had those clear pages. And I would sit watching
6:53
cartoons thinking, like, I'm going to understand
6:56
how all this works. Like, this is what I want to
6:57
know. And I was like 7, 8 years old, so it was
7:00
kind of weird. And then, you know, I went on with
7:03
my life and I had some skin issues. Like I had
7:05
acne and I would get hives and things like that.
7:08
And I thought if I was, you know, going to be a
7:10
dermatologist, it was like adults only. And I
7:13
was, I was kind of interested in kids. And as I
7:17
was journeying to go to medical school when I was
7:20
in college, I had my grandma pass that was very,
7:23
very close to me. And then like my first love of
7:26
my life passed suddenly to the one I thought I
7:29
was going to mar. I was like, okay, I am not
7:32
ready for life, death, things. I don't think I
7:34
can be a doctor. Like, I gotta regroup here
7:37
completely. And so I went into psychology. And
7:40
then as I was going through psychology, I was
7:42
like, okay, like I like all of this, but I still
7:45
want to know about the human body. So I was
7:47
taking all these classes and, you know, doing
7:50
anatomy classes in my spare time when I was in
7:52
grad school in psychology. And I was like, you
7:54
know, there's something here. And I was trying to
7:57
figure out, like, what kind of doctor do I want
8:00
to be. I always had this perspective of the
8:03
person as a whole person. Like you can't separate
8:06
out the different parts. And so I really
8:09
resonated with osteopathic medicine. So I applied
8:12
to osteopathic medical school and I was like,
8:14
okay, if I get in, I'll go, and if I don't, I'll
8:17
just continue my career in psychology. And I got
8:21
in, I was like, great, okay, I'm going to go and
8:24
I'm going to, you know, be.
8:25
Meredith Oke: Could you just explain osteopathy a little bit?
8:29
Because I've learned from moving around the world
8:31
depending where you live. It's like in some
8:34
places everyone's like, oh yeah, go to an
8:36
osteopath. And other places are like, what is
8:37
that?
8:38
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: So, right, yeah. So it's all of the same medical
8:42
training as a, as an MD and then we have a
8:44
different perspective on the body. So kind of
8:47
like the come from of where all of the training
8:50
and the teaching that you learn about the human
8:52
body, it comes from this place that the body does
8:54
have ability to heal itself and that if we can
8:57
tap into that and support the body, it can heal
9:00
itself. And then the other principle that just
9:03
really resonated with me was that everything's
9:06
connected. It's not like your muscle skeletal
9:09
system is attached to the muscles and attached to
9:11
the fascia and attached to the organs and
9:13
attached to the skin. And you know, everything
9:15
kind of use, you know, moves as a unit. So if
9:18
they're say, just like from orthopedic
9:20
standpoint, if there's a problem with the
9:22
shoulder, well, maybe there might be something in
9:24
the neck or something in the back or something in
9:26
the knee or something in the ankle or something
9:29
else going on with that area. Maybe it's related
9:32
to the organ systems that are going there. So
9:35
it's just that perspective really, really
9:37
resonated with me. So we get training on hands on
9:42
techniques of where we move.
9:45
Meredith Oke: Osteopathy is, is hands on, but there's a medical
9:48
degree underneath.
9:49
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Absolutely.
9:50
Meredith Oke: Actually know that. I thought it was like
9:51
chiropractic where it's its own separate thing
9:53
without attaching things.
9:57
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Fascinating. And that's why it Just really
9:59
resonated. I could do all of the. Whatever
10:03
subspecialty I wanted to go in in medicine, if I
10:06
wanted to be a surgeon, if I wanted to be, you
10:09
know, a cardiologist, if I wanted to be a
10:11
pediatrician, whatever I wanted to do, I would
10:14
have that perspective and that hands on of
10:17
touching the body and knowing how it works, and
10:20
then just that perspective of it being holistic.
10:23
So it was like, sign me up. I'm ready. That's.
10:26
That's what I want to do.
10:27
Meredith Oke: And where did you. Was this in the United States
10:30
that you studied this?
10:32
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yes. So I live in Arizona. And so my training,
10:38
all of my training has been in Arizona in the US
10:40
So there is an osteopathic medical school here.
10:44
The first graduating class was the year before I
10:47
started, so it was a long time ago, but yes.
10:52
Yeah. So all in the U.S. i just.
10:54
Meredith Oke: I only asked because I. I lived overseas and I
10:59
lived in Hong Kong and a lot of the. There are a
11:03
lot of practitioners there who came from
11:06
Australia. And they were all. They were all like
11:09
osteopathoste pasta. And I had never heard of it.
11:11
And I was like, I've never. How have I never
11:13
heard of this? It's amazing. And they said it
11:15
really depends where the schools are. So I guess
11:18
in Canada there we don't have. We have
11:21
naturopathic, but not osteopathic. And I didn't
11:23
realize the Southwest had an osteopathic college.
11:25
So that's amazing because I've googled around.
11:28
I'm now in the northeast of the US And I've
11:30
googled around for osteopaths. And like, that's
11:33
like, no, there. That's not a thing up here. I
11:35
can't find any, so.
11:36
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Oh, interesting.
11:38
Meredith Oke: Yeah, maybe I should look harder. But I'm super
11:41
intrigued that that exists. And that's so. That's
11:44
amazing. Okay, so you did your full medical
11:46
training with the osteopathic layer. Okay, let's
11:50
keep going.
11:51
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yeah. And then I was going to go into pediatrics.
11:56
I kind of had a curiosity about dermatology, but
11:58
kind of, like I said, I didn't think I could also
12:00
work with kids. And I wanted to subspecialize,
12:03
but I didn't really know much about it. I was
12:05
like, I'll just go into pediatrics and see how
12:07
that works. And then my last year of medical
12:10
school, after I had kind of committed to doing
12:13
pediatrics, I found Dr. Ron Hanson, who is the
12:17
author of the textbook of Pediatric dermatology.
12:21
And he was at Phoenix Children's Hospital. And I
12:23
did a rotation with him, and it was like our
12:27
first patient. We went in and we saw this little
12:30
boy, and he had a rash. And. And the way that Dr.
12:33
Hansen analyzed the rash and went through the
12:36
possibilities of what it could be and what might
12:38
be going on with it and how it could be linked to
12:40
other things, and, you know, all of that, it
12:43
just, like, it was how I thought it was.
12:45
Literally, like everything inside my body
12:48
resonated. My intuition was like, oh, my gosh,
12:51
this is your thing. You gotta go into
12:53
dermatology. And then it was like, okay, how am I
12:56
going to do that? I mean, to go into dermatology,
12:59
it's like, you have to be top of your class. It's
13:01
very, very competitive. People plan for this
13:04
their whole medical school career. Like, how the
13:06
heck am I gonna.
13:08
Meredith Oke: Do that about dermatology?
13:10
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: It's.
13:10
Meredith Oke: It's very super competitive.
13:12
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Super competitive.
13:14
Meredith Oke: Okay.
13:14
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yeah.
13:15
Meredith Oke: So you're like, last minute. I. I want to do
13:18
this, but it's the one. Because, like, going into
13:20
investment banking or something. I did that. And
13:22
they started planning, like, 10th grade.
13:24
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Totally. How am I going to make this happen? And
13:28
then it's kind of like, you know, the universe
13:31
always, like, has your back. I guess it just like
13:34
it. If it's meant to be, it kind of opens the
13:37
pathways. So I shadowed Dr. Hansen as much as I
13:40
could in medical school, and I got into
13:43
pediatrics, I got into Phoenix Children's, and I
13:45
was like, okay, I'll do pediatrics first, and
13:47
then I'll just figure it out. And in my first
13:51
year of pediatric residency, I got a phone call
13:54
from the osteopathic derm residency in Phoenix,
13:58
and they're like, hey, we have a spot. You have
14:01
to give up your pediatric residency, but we'll
14:04
give you a spot in our derm residency. You have
14:06
to apply. We have to go through all the things,
14:09
but we want to see you apply and see what you can
14:11
do. And then Dr. Hansen was starting a pediatric
14:14
dermatology fellowship, and he was like, okay, we
14:19
can actually do your fellowship, and we can merge
14:21
it, and we'll work together. We'll do it
14:24
together. And I was like, oh, my God. I mean,
14:26
just like, the energy is right. And, like, how
14:31
does that happen? And it was like, okay, I
14:34
committed to this pediatric residency. Like,
14:37
that. That was hard to break that promise. But I
14:40
knew that this was the next step of what I had to
14:43
do. And so I went through the application
14:45
process, the interview process, the whole thing,
14:49
and it all Fell into place. I was simultaneous.
14:53
This hasn't been done before and it hasn't been
14:56
done again. It was a simultaneous pediatric
15:01
dermatology fellowship with a dermatology
15:03
residency. It was expanded to four years of
15:07
training instead of the typical three years of
15:10
derm residency after your intern year, and then a
15:13
one or two year fellowship in pediatric
15:14
dermatology. When I started this, pediatric
15:17
dermatology was a two year fellowship you had to
15:19
do after dermatology, and then they changed it to
15:22
one. It was this magical synergistic pathway
15:28
opened up. I was like, okay. Dr. Hanson worked
15:33
closely with Mayo Clinic. I was able to go to
15:35
Mayo Clinic and get some of the dermatology
15:38
curriculum and sit in on that education and that
15:41
training too. And then the osteopathic
15:44
dermatology program was fantastic. I got to learn
15:47
the osteopathic way of looking at skin and
15:51
treating it. And so it was a beautiful unfoldment
15:55
of something I would have never guessed would
15:58
have happened.
15:59
Meredith Oke: Could you explain the osteopathic approach to
16:03
dermatology versus the regular approach?
16:07
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yeah. So in our training, we did all of the
16:11
traditional things that you would do in
16:12
dermatology. So we would do skin surgeries, you
16:16
know, biopsies, prescribing medications and all
16:18
of that. But we would try to also put into
16:21
perspective what else could be going on from a
16:23
holistic standpoint. And were there other
16:25
modalities that we could bring in for this
16:27
patient to support? And then also recognizing
16:30
just the. The psychological impact of having a
16:33
skin issue where everybody can see your health
16:36
issue, and just really like understanding that
16:39
component, and I think that was what really
16:41
brought it. Brought it, you know, kind of to the
16:43
surface for people is like, okay, we understand
16:46
there's like this other part that maybe brings
16:49
shame or, you know, anger or frustration or
16:52
things like that. There are a little bit of some
16:56
osteopathic kind of manipulation techniques that
16:59
kind of move the fascia or move different things.
17:01
But we didn't get a lot of that in the training.
17:04
It was very much more focused on addressing
17:06
things because they were already so advanced. And
17:08
we had to, you know, kind of take it where. Where
17:11
people were at at that point where they had
17:13
already full blown psoriasis all over their body
17:16
and skin cancers, you know, here and there and
17:19
everywhere. So it was great. But it was just
17:21
that, that philosophy, that understanding, that
17:24
connection to the person in front of you.
17:28
Meredith Oke: Okay, so. So the osteopathic model is more
17:33
holistic, you're looking at, as opposed to just
17:36
like, let's Treat this. Let's treat this symptom.
17:39
What's going on with this condition? It's like
17:42
more of a systemic look at where it could have
17:45
come from.
17:46
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Right. I think it, you know, most. Most skin
17:50
disease is like that, though. It's not. It's not
17:54
just always a skin issue. There's more to it. And
17:58
I think as time has evolved, I mean, this was,
18:00
what, 20 years ago? Most MDs are on board with
18:04
that understanding, like, they're starting to see
18:07
those things. So it's not. It's not so different
18:11
anymore. There's definitely a coming forth of an
18:14
awareness of. There's a lot going on. And what's
18:18
beautiful about dermatology is it is a bit of a
18:20
window into what's going on internally. And even
18:24
traditional dermatologists are trained that way.
18:26
We're trained, you know, in traditional
18:28
dermatology because I was exposed to that
18:30
training, too, of this is related. There could be
18:33
a systemic disease. It could be related to a
18:35
medication. There can be other things going on.
18:37
So that's the beauty of the skin, is you can see
18:40
things and you can treat them, and then you can
18:42
see them get better. It's all right there, you
18:45
know?
18:48
Meredith Oke: Yes. And I'm reminded, I know when I first
18:51
started, you know, like many, many years ago,
18:55
reading about mind, body, connection and, you
18:58
know, all of the things, there seemed to be an
19:03
accepted belief in that world that I think the
19:06
line was something like the skin is the first
19:10
layer of exteriorization of something happening,
19:13
like an emotional disturbance or something
19:16
happening internally. I love to hear your
19:19
thoughts on that.
19:21
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yes. So it's kind of like, you know, we have this
19:25
outside environment and we have this internal
19:28
environment, and the barrier between it is your
19:32
skin. And so. And there's connections to the
19:36
internal environment from the external
19:38
environment. And so this is where, you know,
19:40
about a decade ago, I was learning about leaky
19:43
skin, and I was in, you know, doing functional
19:45
medicine training, too, and. And leaky gut and
19:48
all of. All of that. And it was. It was a lecture
19:51
where I was sitting in. It was like my first
19:54
functional medicine lecture. And they were
19:56
talking about leaky gut and all of the pathways
20:01
and the immune system responses and everything
20:03
was just like eczema and leaky skin. And I had
20:06
the biggest aha moment. And I realized, like, our
20:09
external skin, where it kind of meets the inside,
20:13
is like when we go to our mouth and then the
20:16
inside of our mouth to our throat, and then we
20:18
have our inner skin, which is our gut. And so
20:22
there's this like, connection of everything. And,
20:27
you know, our eyes, I mean, there's just like.
20:29
And the skin's great at creating a barrier and
20:32
doing that, but sometimes we do things outside of
20:34
our skin and the barrier is disrupted and things
20:37
come inside. And so there was some data in the
20:41
past several years about peanut allergy. And
20:44
could it be related to what's on the skin? Not
20:47
necessarily eating peanuts, but could it be on
20:49
the skin? And could it be vice versa? And could
20:50
it be this whole thing together? And of course.
20:53
Of course it is. Right. And so there's just these
20:57
connections. And sometimes there's like a. I
21:02
don't know, like a seasonality to your skin
21:04
issue. And so sometimes there'll be something
21:08
where things only happen a certain time of year.
21:10
And the question to ask there is, well, when it
21:13
first happened, what was going on in your life at
21:16
that time? Was there something that could have
21:19
triggered an emotional or traumatic response? And
21:22
going back to that, and then there's like, a
21:24
memory. And then when that season comes up, like,
21:26
okay, are we having a seasonality to it? I mean,
21:29
certainly there can be issues with environmental
21:33
allergens and pollens at a certain time, and if
21:35
it's an allergy thing, but could there be a
21:37
deeper link there. Could there be something where
21:40
there's something that happened? Our body
21:42
anchored that memory, and we know a lot more now
21:44
about trauma response. And then it only comes out
21:48
when maybe those energies of whatever was going
21:50
at that moment kind of seem more aligned. And
21:52
then we realign to that and it comes out again
21:55
because we haven't quite addressed it fully. So
21:58
that's part of it.
22:01
Meredith Oke: Wow. So that's so interesting. So you would agree
22:07
that, you know, with. With that kind of thesis
22:10
that evolved. I don't know when that. That the
22:13
skin. Often if something shows up on the skin,
22:16
it's like. I think. Sorry, I'll finish my
22:20
sentence. Often, if it shows up on the skin, it's
22:22
like your body's first attempt to, like, show a
22:25
signal that something's going on. And if we use a
22:30
suppressive agent, I think it was a homeopath
22:35
that told me this, now that I'm thinking about
22:36
it, it was like, it shows up on the skin. And if
22:39
we use a suppressive agent, whatever was trying
22:41
to exteriorize that way gets pushed back into the
22:44
body and goes and does some other business
22:48
somewhere else or something along those lines. Is
22:53
that like, how would you. What's your. You know,
22:57
you have such a body of research in all of the
22:59
different areas. Like, I'M just curious how you
23:02
could break down even further for us to
23:05
understand, like, what the skin's role.
23:08
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Absolutely. I think. I think there's truth on all
23:11
of it, on all the sides, and that, that's kind of
23:15
where, like, understanding the. Both and, and
23:17
being open and curious to all of the
23:19
possibilities instead of one way of doing it, and
23:22
that's the correct way, and that's the only way
23:25
to do it. And there's another way of looking at
23:27
things. It's. There's multiple different
23:30
experiences and, and realities of it all. So when
23:33
we have something showing up on the skin, it's a
23:36
signal that something's going on. Sometimes it
23:40
can be just an external thing, sometimes it can
23:42
just be in the skin, because the skin has its own
23:45
immune response, its own immune system, it has
23:48
its own hormonal system, it has its own HPA axis
23:51
in the skin. It can just be in the skin. However,
23:54
we also know that everything's connected
23:56
energetically and physiologically, so there can
24:00
be different signals coming up at that same time.
24:04
So if we treat the skin, does it push things back
24:08
in? I don't know. But what usually happens when
24:12
people come and see a dermatologist or someone to
24:14
help with their skin is this is disturbing them
24:17
in some way. It's either itchy or growing or
24:19
bleeding or destructive. So if we can at least
24:21
help them with that, and then if there is
24:24
something inside that they can work on and do
24:26
those inner links and do that inner work too,
24:29
it's synergistic. It's not just, okay, we're
24:33
going to dampen the skin and that'll cure it and
24:36
that'll be done. That's. That sometimes is the
24:39
case, but not always. And then sometimes there's
24:42
something inside that keeps coming up. And then
24:45
could we address that on a deeper level? Could we
24:48
do a deeper level of, you know, functional
24:50
medicine testing and, and see, like, what is it
24:52
underneath it? Is there, you know, an energetic
24:55
thing that can be treated energetically
24:57
underneath there? Absolutely. But when you're
24:59
coming to a dermatologist, it's like, how can we
25:01
fix this external thing and do that while you're
25:03
working on the internal thing? Are there internal
25:07
things we can do in dermatology? Absolutely.
25:09
There's so many things that we can do from the
25:11
inside out to kind of help those pathways calm
25:14
and help them not be so cumbersome and
25:18
symptomatic. So it's like, why wouldn't we want a
25:22
little relief from what's happening in our skin
25:25
as we're working on those other things. Why can't
25:27
we have it all? Why can't we do both? Why can't
25:30
we work on it all? I guess that's always, you
25:33
know, kind of been my come from is like, well,
25:35
why can't we do some medication and then do some
25:38
other things if. If that's the right thing? Why
25:41
does it have to be only medication and only this
25:43
or only energetics and no medication and let it
25:46
fester and you're miserable and you can't sleep
25:48
at night and you know that's messing with your
25:50
circadian rhythm and you know, your cortisol's a
25:52
mess and then your insulin level, you know, so
25:54
it's just. Can't we, can't we just come together
25:57
and do it all?
25:59
Meredith Oke: I love that. Because, yes, I mean, we do have
26:03
access to these, to some amazing medical
26:06
breakthroughs that can relieve our suffering.
26:10
But, yeah, I hear what you're saying. But if we
26:11
just focus on that, then we're not getting to the
26:13
root cause. But if we are a purist and reject
26:18
everything, like, we might not get the relief
26:20
that we need to do the work that we need to do to
26:22
heal, like, at all. Yeah.
26:25
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: It's asking what if. What. What if this could
26:28
help? What if this other thing that seems like so
26:32
extreme and weird, what if that thing could be
26:35
part of my healing journey? What if this, like,
26:38
thing that's been around for ages could be part
26:41
of it? What if this prescription actually could
26:43
help me too? Like, why. What if I did all. What
26:47
if I, like, you know, kind of followed my
26:49
intuition about what I need and how these all can
26:52
work together for me, like, that's. I don't know,
26:56
just asking the. What if?
26:57
Meredith Oke: I'm having this, this memory and it keeps coming
27:00
to my mind, so I'm just going to tell the story.
27:02
It's like super woo. But I, I was listening.
27:06
There's someone I listened to who. He's an
27:09
intuitive. Like, that's what he does for a
27:12
living. And he was telling a story that he was
27:15
getting like a recurring foot fungus. And he was
27:17
doing all of the, all of the natural things and
27:20
all of the things to clear it and heal it. And he
27:23
did like a guided, you know, intuitive session.
27:26
And he got the message, like, this is. I forget.
27:31
Exactly. But basically the message was like, you
27:33
got to put drugs on it. This is like the
27:37
energetic imprint of this requires modern
27:40
medicine. So go do it.
27:41
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Right, right.
27:43
Meredith Oke: And I just love that story because he's like, as
27:45
woo as you could possibly get right.
27:48
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: And that's. And that's the beauty of being in the
27:51
both hand and being open. So he was woo, and I
27:54
think we're all woo in some way, especially the
27:58
audience listening to this too. But. But yeah,
28:01
it's like, why? Why can't we do it all? Like,
28:04
what. What's the hold up here? Why are we
28:07
struggling so much? Why are we putting ourselves
28:09
through so much? And I think there is a lot of
28:11
misunderstandings and misinformation about
28:14
things. And I mean, gosh, coming through the past
28:16
couple of years, it's like there's a distrust of
28:19
things and, you know, trying to trust your. Your
28:22
own intuition and gathering information and not
28:25
knowing, like, what's truth, what's not, what's
28:28
true for me, what's not. And like, we're really
28:30
just as a society, figuring that out. And part of
28:33
it is bringing us back to the anchoring of
28:36
circadian rhythms and nature and all of these
28:40
foundational things that have been going on since
28:43
the beginning of time and all of that. I think
28:48
there's a lot of gifts in that journey of
28:51
figuring that out. And the amazing people you get
28:54
to meet, too. I work very closely with
28:58
naturopaths and some intuitive energy healers and
29:02
functional medicine practitioners and oncologists
29:04
and plastic surgeons, and all of it. And it's
29:07
just depending on what's going on with a patient,
29:11
they might need all of that. They might need a
29:13
little bit of traditional Chinese medicine and
29:15
acupuncture and herbalism, plus maybe we need to
29:19
do some topical treatment, or maybe they need a
29:21
systemic treatment. And. And maybe I'm dealing
29:24
with someone that is very much into energy
29:27
healing and has their energy healing that's
29:29
working together, but we're coming together as a
29:32
team to do that holistic piece.
29:37
Meredith Oke: Yeah. I love this approach, and thank you for
29:40
modeling it in the world and creating a structure
29:43
that is truly integrative in terms you are
29:47
integrating all of the things, all of the
29:49
possibilities, all of the opportunities. Man made
29:53
nature, all of it. So thank you. Thank you, Dr.
29:57
Jeffries. That's a good one. I want to jump back
30:01
to. You said something interesting that I hadn't
30:05
never heard before, which was leaky skin.
30:07
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yes.
30:08
Meredith Oke: And compared it to leaky gut. And you were
30:10
talking and you were saying, like, the skin is
30:12
sort of the external layer, the actual physical
30:15
barrier from a quantum biologic standpoint. Like,
30:19
we talk a lot about how our bodies are
30:21
energetically communicating with their
30:22
environment all of the time. So, of course, like,
30:25
the. The medium I Guess through which they're
30:29
communicating is kind of the skin. So tell me
30:32
what you mean by leaky skin, how it relates to
30:35
leaky gut and how it relates and how you now sort
30:39
of see the quote unquote, quantum health
30:44
practices fitting into it.
30:46
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yeah. So leaky skin. So typically we have these
30:50
two cells of the skin, and they link together,
30:53
and there's different little things that kind of
30:55
go in between that link them together. And when
30:59
those are disrupted and open, there's a leak in
31:02
that system. It's not sealed. And so the immune
31:05
system will try to come there and heal it. So we
31:08
might get, like, that itchy healing sensation.
31:11
The skin cells themselves might be trying to
31:14
repair and trying to, like, come together. And so
31:17
they're trying to do different things that help
31:19
those skin cells, or keratinocytes is the medical
31:22
word, but just trying to get them to come
31:24
together and seal up. And when we scratch it, we
31:26
open it up more, and then it's like more things
31:29
on the external environment can get in. So
31:31
bacteria and fungus and viruses and, you know,
31:34
all the things. Right. And so our body is like,
31:37
okay, now it's open even more. We got to heal
31:39
even more. We get a little bit thicker, and then
31:41
we start to see that th. Thickening of the skin.
31:43
So this is kind of the foundation of eczema, or,
31:46
you know, kind of like a barrier disruption in
31:49
the skin is where there's an opening. The immune
31:52
system's trying to heal it, and then it's. It's
31:54
getting thicker. So eczema is also known as the.
31:57
Meredith Oke: Itch, to clarify, like, that at a cellular level,
32:02
the. They're becoming. The cells are becoming
32:05
kind of looser.
32:06
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yep.
32:06
Meredith Oke: Then there's a gap. Yeah, there's gaps. Okay.
32:09
Which is allowing things in that the body doesn't
32:12
want. So the response is to thicken up.
32:16
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: And get rid of it. Get the immune system.
32:20
Meredith Oke: Oh, okay. All right.
32:22
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: So it's like, let's thicken up and let's get rid
32:25
of it. Let's, you know, increase that barrier so
32:28
that the body doesn't have harm. And kind of
32:31
within the spectrum of skin disease, I feel like,
32:37
you know, our bodies are meant to repair and
32:39
heal, and it may even have, like, a priority
32:42
system of, like, what it has to do. So sometimes
32:46
skin issues are more prevalent or more allowed
32:49
when we're more stressed out. So stress also
32:52
plays a role in how our cortisol is being
32:54
balanced. So if we truly were having this, like,
32:57
extreme version of being chased by a bear, and
33:01
we're trying to get rid of it. If we had a skin
33:02
sore, the bear would be like, eh, no thanks, I'm
33:04
good. Like, there might be something going on
33:07
with this bear. Pray I'm going to let it be. So
33:09
there's that stress response too, that kind of
33:11
almost like allows it. So, so there's that
33:14
internal component of that. And then if there is
33:16
an allergen or chronic inflammation or something
33:20
else going with the body system inside that maybe
33:23
isn't getting addressed and the body's trying to
33:25
have to have to really focus on that. It might
33:28
allow, okay, well, let the skin do that. I got, I
33:30
got priorities here. I got to focus on the heart,
33:32
the lungs, the muscles, like all of these other
33:34
things first. So there's that component that
33:36
plays a role. Then you think of, well, okay, if
33:41
we follow the skin, like I said, to our mouth and
33:43
we go inside. When I was sitting in that lecture,
33:46
they had a picture of the gut lining and I could
33:50
have blinked and it could have been skin and the
33:53
immune system and then the leaks of the barrier
33:57
of the gut, the intestinal permeability
33:59
happening, and then the immune factors that are
34:01
trying to heal it coming in. I mean, it was just
34:04
like, okay, I see that in my dermatology
34:06
textbooks with the skin. I'm seeing this here on
34:09
the screen of gut health. So it was just like
34:12
this aha moment of like, oh, it's not just skin,
34:16
it's everywhere. Like, it can happen other places
34:19
and can it just be isolated to one thing?
34:21
Meredith Oke: Sure.
34:22
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Can it be linked to both? Sure. Can there be
34:24
other things going on? Sure. It's the kind of
34:27
having that living in that realm of possibility
34:29
of maybe what could be going on. And then to your
34:32
point about like quantum, Right. So then we get
34:36
to kind of energy and quantum and the tiny
34:41
particles and photons and all of the cool things
34:43
that I love to geek out on, which has brought me
34:46
to you and the training program is basically
34:50
there's. There's almost like a increasing density
34:54
of, you know, of material when we get to the
34:59
physical body. So there's a, there's a point at
35:03
which things get a little bit more dense. And
35:05
that's where we define, you know, our physical
35:07
body. And so, sure, there can be the gaps, sure
35:10
there can be, you know, the little photons of
35:13
energy and things kind of buzzing around. But
35:15
there, I think there's just a density of when we
35:18
come to the human body, and then maybe those
35:20
densities change as we go more internal. I don't
35:23
know if anyone's really defined like the quantum
35:26
energy of going in through the skin all the way
35:28
into the body and what all those little, you
35:30
know, things quantumly look like. But that kind
35:33
of makes sense to me is like there's. There's
35:36
kind of like maybe less dense in the environment
35:39
of. Of, you know, quantum. And then when we get
35:43
closer to our body, there's a density just like
35:46
the computer. There's a. There's a density that
35:48
creates the computer, even though we know in a
35:51
quantum world there's a lot of space in those
35:53
molecules and all of that. So that's kind of.
35:58
Kind of my thoughts on that.
35:59
Meredith Oke: Okay, this is so cool. All right, so then what,
36:06
in your estimation. I'm not looking for, you
36:11
know, blanket truths here, but in your
36:14
experience, in your estimation, what is most
36:18
likely to cause that leakage in the skin and does
36:22
it. And it's so, so interesting to me that. That
36:25
the exterior and the interior are such a mirror
36:28
because it's. We're all. It's all the same. Okay,
36:32
but what is. What are some of, you know, some.
36:37
There's. I think there's things that would come
36:39
to mind, top of mind, that would cause that
36:41
leakage. But then what are also things that maybe
36:44
we're not thinking about?
36:46
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yes, I know exactly what you're asking. There.
36:49
There's so much there. Right. And all the
36:52
different layers, and especially if we're talking
36:54
integrative. Right. So certainly there's the
36:57
physiology. There's the fact that the cells are,
37:00
you know, we've shown that they're open and
37:02
there's this break. And like, what could have
37:04
caused that? Could it be something outside in or
37:07
inside out? So there's that whole thing outside
37:11
in for. For eczema. And maybe a leaky skin is.
37:15
Could there have been, you know, maybe the
37:19
barrier was a little bit disrupted and then an
37:21
allergen got put on and then the body reacted to
37:24
that and it got more irritated and more
37:26
irritated. And then it, you know, recruited the
37:27
immune system in the skin. And then it got so bad
37:29
the immune system in the body had to come up and
37:32
go, could there be a microbiome issue where
37:36
there's a microbiome of the skin and then could
37:39
that be disrupted and then the immune system is
37:42
responding to that and all these different
37:44
layers. Could it be a food and internal that
37:48
started in the gut and then, you know, unfolded
37:51
into the skin? All of these are amazing
37:54
possibilities, and certainly all of them can be
37:56
true all at once, too. So that's the other piece
37:59
of this is it's not always like, okay, there's an
38:02
irritant on my skin, and I'm more prone to dry
38:05
skin and eczema. And then I ate these foods too,
38:08
that irritated in my body. It doesn't have the
38:11
micronutrients to be able to heal. And there's a
38:13
disruption in the microbiome. So all of this, you
38:16
know, is a little bit of dermatology, a little
38:19
bit of integrative medicine, and a little bit of
38:21
functional medicine where we can dive deep into
38:24
the fascinating physiology and biochemistry of
38:27
how this all works. And then there's the
38:30
energetic piece of it. And this is where things
38:33
get a little different and a little out there.
38:36
Um, and the way that I've experienced this with
38:42
patients is that there usually is an identity
38:45
issue going on with eczema. It's not everybody.
38:50
So this is a hard thing, like babies with eczema.
38:52
I don't know if this applies, but there can be a
38:55
subset of patients with eczema that have this
38:58
leaky skin, that don't know where they're defined
39:01
in life. Who am I compared out in this life?
39:06
Where is my definition? Where is my barrier?
39:09
Where is my boundary? Who am I as a person? I've
39:13
had a handful of people transitioning transgender
39:17
that had horrible flare ups of their eczema
39:20
before they were able to communicate to their
39:22
family of what was really going on with them.
39:27
That is profound. And then once they kind of
39:30
define who they are and are comfortable in their
39:31
own skin and their own body, wow, that eczema
39:35
calms down and could there be, like, the stress
39:37
physiology of it? Yes, and all of those things.
39:40
But that, like, barrier of like, who am I? And
39:43
I'm like, maybe I'm pleasing others and leaking
39:46
out and allowing other people to tell me what to
39:49
do and who I am and I'm not coming from within
39:51
and have this, you know, firm boundary of me and
39:55
who's me. And not everybody that's going through
39:58
that is going to have eczema either. So, I mean,
40:02
some people manifest it in different ways. It
40:04
might be a gut thing where, like, they get, like
40:06
a really upset gut and, you know, maybe they have
40:09
loose stools when they get upset or, you know,
40:11
everybody's different. Some people it's heart
40:13
palpitations or, you know, it's something in
40:15
their heart. So there's. There's all these
40:18
possibilities there. So it just depends on kind
40:21
of what layer, I guess, you want to look at.
40:25
Meredith Oke: Yes. And, yeah, I guess my question was more just
40:28
about saying like, yeah, there are all those
40:31
layers. And I think you know, back to what you
40:38
were saying earlier about not like separating
40:40
them and being like, okay, I have to get to the
40:42
emotional cause of this. I have to get to the
40:44
spiritual cause. Like there might, it might be a
40:46
whole constellation.
40:47
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Right.
40:49
Meredith Oke: And depending what door you're coming in, you
40:51
might be someone who wants to start with emotion
40:53
and like, so you don't need medication or vice
40:56
versa. But maybe it's all, you know, we all need
40:59
a little bit of everything at some point. Yeah.
41:02
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: And it's, it's also an allowance of just letting
41:05
it be, let, letting your journey unfold. And
41:10
because I don't know what your lessons are going
41:13
to be or what you're supposed to do or where
41:15
you're supposed to go or I don't know, I'm, I
41:19
see. I'm going to give information and a guide
41:21
and hold space and do my best to connect you with
41:25
anyone that may be connected to your journey. And
41:29
then, and then it's up to you what you have to
41:31
do. And so it's an encouragement of just
41:33
anchoring into what's going to work best for you.
41:37
What's your journey? It's okay to make mistakes
41:40
and, and I don't think there are mistakes. I
41:42
think it's just like we went down one path and we
41:44
had a lesson and we learned and we're pivoting
41:46
and we're going down something else. And so it's
41:49
just, it's allowing that space and holding that
41:52
space for people and, and letting them have their
41:55
journey and do their thing. And you know,
41:59
sometimes the answers aren't always outside. We
42:02
resource meaning finding the source within from
42:05
looking outside it kind of anchors us back in of
42:08
what, what is right and we come back to source
42:10
inside and then we reference and then we come
42:13
back inside and see and then we might come out.
42:16
We might be able to help people who have been on
42:18
that journey too, but with the understanding that
42:21
it's their journey, everything you did isn't
42:23
necessarily what they need to do too. So.
42:28
Meredith Oke: Yeah, such a beautiful approach, Michelle. I
42:30
really love it. And yeah, I just want to talk
42:35
about eczema for one more moment just because it
42:39
seems to be like such a determined condition. I
42:46
know people who, you know, who have young
42:50
children with eczema who, you know, they do
42:54
everything there is to do from you know,
42:58
circadian rhythm to you know, non native EMFs, to
43:03
food to like loving secure environment, home
43:07
environments and they have made tremendous
43:11
progress. And still this, this it doesn't seem
43:17
to, like, be something that likes to fully
43:20
resolve or you would, you know, even in a. In a
43:23
young child. And so I'm just wondering what you,
43:27
what you see with eczema. And that being said, I
43:32
have. I'm thinking of one woman, Angela Jensen.
43:34
She did just what you, you said. Like, she's now
43:36
studying to be a naturopath and studied applied
43:40
quantum biology because her. She went through the
43:42
ringer with her child. They did an extended
43:44
family trip to Mexico. It resolved. They went
43:48
back home. He. They changed the lights at his
43:50
daycare. It came back. It was just. So, anyway, I
43:56
just, you know, especially for the moms out
43:59
there, I just would love to hear a little bit
44:01
more of your thoughts on eczema and children.
44:04
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a challenging
44:09
situation, especially, you know, as a, you know,
44:13
also being boarded in pediatric dermatology. It's
44:17
seeing the kiddos and the moms and the parents
44:20
suffering, seeing a little baby, like, not really
44:25
able to scratch, but just, like, writhing around
44:27
and the parent just being like, I've tried
44:29
everything. I don't know what to do. I can't
44:31
sleep. And just, just the level of. Of stress and
44:34
distraught that it brings to families. I've seen
44:37
it impact marriages just because, you know,
44:40
parents aren't getting along because they're not
44:42
sleeping and they're miserable and they're.
44:44
They're trying from, like, the deepest depths of
44:46
their heart to do what's best for their baby. And
44:50
so it's one of those things where we don't have
44:53
all of the healing things at our fingertips. We
44:55
don't know everything. We don't know all the
44:58
things. And so we know that there are a lot of
45:01
things that can help. There are a lot of things
45:03
that can dampen the response. And it's being open
45:06
to all those things and also understanding the
45:09
continuum of where it is. So it's considered a
45:12
chronic skin disease. So it's probably going to
45:16
ebb and flow, and then sometimes there's going to
45:18
be things that, you know, trigger it. You're
45:20
like, okay, this was it. They had this certain
45:23
food and this was it. And then sometimes you're
45:25
like, okay, they had that food again and their
45:27
skin's fine.
45:28
Meredith Oke: And it's just.
45:29
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: It's so frustrating because maybe that's not what
45:31
it is. Maybe it's not the food. And then they're
45:34
like, okay, it's seasonal. Like, you know,
45:36
there's a pollen, grass or tree doing it. And
45:39
they do the allergy testing. And they do the
45:41
desensitization of those things, and maybe they
45:43
still have a little bit. And could there be a
45:45
genetic component? Could there be some untapped
45:48
things there? Yes. And so what, what I do in my
45:54
clinic is like, it depends on where we're at with
45:56
things. If we are having a full body severe
45:59
flare, like we're going to put things on the skin
46:01
to dampen that. We're going to do prescriptions,
46:03
and we're going to do it in a very guided, very
46:05
closely monitored way to just get to the point
46:08
where that being can be comfortable, and it just
46:12
takes the edge off of the whole entire family.
46:14
And then once we know what works, what can dampen
46:17
that response, then what are we going to do for
46:19
longevity? How are we going to handle those
46:21
flares? And so it's coming back into the clinic
46:24
and seeing, okay, I had these tools, and I have
46:27
all these different tools. I know how to use
46:29
them. This is what I did for this flare. This is
46:32
how long this lasted. Okay, now let's regroup.
46:36
What do we need to do for the next flare? And
46:38
kind of doing that. And it's a lot of back and
46:40
forth and learning because not one eczema patient
46:42
is like the next one. There's different things
46:44
for everybody. So what I typically do in the ones
46:49
that are open is I work with a pediatric
46:53
naturopath, and then I also work with a
46:55
pediatrician who does some gut testing. And in
46:58
some of these kiddos, we find yeast and they do a
47:01
little mini protocol and they do great. And other
47:04
kiddos, they've done that. And the eczema is
47:07
still there. And we have to advance some of our
47:09
treatments. So it's. It's one of those things
47:13
that breaks my heart. I know I can help. I know
47:16
that I can get the babies a lot better with
47:18
traditional dermatology practice and, and being
47:21
supportive and understanding of what they're
47:23
going through and seeing them regularly and kind
47:26
of giving them something to use to help their
47:29
skin and help their baby's skin. What I think is
47:32
very effective is if I can give a mom something
47:36
that they can put on their baby and it actually
47:38
helps their baby, they feel like they're helping,
47:41
and it's like they're doing something that's
47:44
making it better. There's nothing more
47:46
frustrating than putting something on the skin
47:48
and it makes it worse. And your baby's screaming
47:50
and crying and you don't know what it is. And
47:53
some of the common things that I see for that are
47:56
the baby products and it's terrible. It's like
48:00
we'll have like a certain lotion or a certain
48:03
thing that says it's for babies and it has
48:06
fragrance in it and their skin's already
48:08
disrupted and then they're putting that on and
48:10
maybe it's a cream. And creams tend to be a
48:13
little bit more burny, stingy. And then you're
48:15
putting that on too and it's just aggravating the
48:17
whole thing. And then as a parent, you may think,
48:20
okay, I put cream on and it doesn't work, so I'm
48:22
not going to do creams at all. Like it was very
48:24
traumatic, I'm not going to do it at all. But
48:25
maybe it's using something that's doesn't have
48:28
fragrance in it and it is more hypoallergenic and
48:32
it's more of an ointment, more of an occlusive
48:34
ointment that seals that barrier that's not going
48:36
to burn, sting. So I think if there are any moms
48:41
listening with eczema, just know there's a lot
48:43
that can be done and there's a lot of caveats and
48:46
not to give up. There's a lot to it. And
48:50
certainly you can go down a pathway of misusing
48:54
topical steroids in this way. So you want to work
48:56
with a board certified dermatologist who can
48:58
really guide you on what you're supposed to do.
49:00
Some pediatricians don't entirely understand how
49:03
to use topical steroids, so they refer you to a
49:05
pediatric dermatologist. And sometimes you can go
49:08
so far down this like testing and supplements and
49:11
elimination that your baby ends up malnourished
49:13
and not getting the micronutrients that they
49:15
need. And sometimes all of it works together too.
49:19
So just there's a lot of things there and some
49:24
kids grow out of it and some kids don't. And so,
49:29
and then why is this happening? Why do we have so
49:32
many eczema kiddos? I mean, I think it must be
49:36
something related to maybe our toxic load that
49:39
we're experiencing and then our inability to
49:42
detoxify things that might be one big piece of
49:45
it. So we're getting exposed to all of these
49:48
different things in our environment and then
49:51
maybe we're having toxic emotions, toxic thoughts
49:54
too that we're not talking to anybody about. And
49:58
maybe we're around toxic people that we can't
50:00
escape, like family or, you know, things like
50:03
that. So there's all these different layers of
50:06
things going on. So I think just a holistic
50:10
perspective and knowing that there are things
50:13
that can be really helpful. You may not want to
50:16
do them first thing, you may be exploring other
50:19
things, or you may do them first thing and then
50:21
use the other modalities to help support as
50:23
things get better. So I hope that helps.
50:27
Meredith Oke: Yeah, super comprehensive. And as you talked
50:30
about the onslaught of toxins, both physical and
50:36
frequency, and how to be, how to detoxify and be
50:40
resilient. Let's, let's close out by talking
50:43
about like the quantum biologic approach. How
50:45
does, how does skin fit in and how do you as a
50:49
dermatologist, recommend sun for people?
50:52
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yes. So this is a big shift that has happened to
50:57
me over my career. So, you know, being a
51:01
traditionally trained dermatologist, we're, you
51:03
know, sunlight causes a lot of issues in the
51:07
skin. And so I live in Arizona. We have an
51:10
abundance, abundance of sun. It is all the time.
51:16
And so there is, you know, something that's,
51:20
excuse me, a common sense about it. Like we know
51:22
in Arizona in the summer, we can't be out there
51:25
in the middle of the day for a long time. Like we
51:27
will be fried to a crisp. And even landscapers,
51:32
people that work on roofs, like they cover up. So
51:35
there's truths on all these sides. It's having
51:38
that understanding. But what if when the UV index
51:43
is really low at sunrise and we're able to get
51:48
some of the far infrared light into our eyes and
51:51
our body and there's not any UV risk there, why
51:55
aren't we suggesting people go and outside at
51:58
sunrise and then what about sunset too? So that's
52:03
been a shift in my recommendation is there's
52:06
definitely a benefit of exposure to sunrise and
52:11
then sunset if you can. And then it's off those
52:14
devices at night and going to bed on time and
52:17
being able to wake up in time to go out there for
52:20
sunrise. And then I learned about the UVA rise,
52:25
which I thought was fascinating that, you know,
52:28
about an hour or so after sunset, sunrise,
52:31
there's the UVA rise and how that helps with our
52:34
mitochondria, how it can help with thyroid
52:36
health, how it can help with cortisol. And that
52:38
was fascinating to me. Now in Arizona, there
52:42
might be a tiny window in the summer where
52:44
there's Sunrise, UVA Rise, UVB and Boom. We're
52:48
like full UVA 8. And so it depends on the time of
52:53
year, it depends on skin type, it depends on, you
52:56
know, where you're living and all, all of those
52:58
things. And so there's, there's kind of like the
53:02
nuanced approach of this like there might be some
53:06
things that are okay for a lot of people and
53:08
there might be some things that are okay only for
53:10
a small percentage. Most of my day in dermatology
53:15
is diagnosing and treating skin cancer. If you
53:18
are suspicious of anything that you think could
53:21
be a skin cancer, go and see a board certified
53:23
dermatologist. We have a very, very trained eye.
53:26
We can detect it where we have different
53:28
magnifiers and polarized lights that we use on
53:31
your skin to be able to see it. And so we know
53:36
that UV light might be related to that. But I
53:40
think there's other things too. It's, it came
53:43
down to, it's one thing that maybe we can control
53:46
or maybe we could do something about. And there's
53:48
some other things that maybe we don't know how to
53:50
mitigate or control. Maybe there is. Like you
53:53
live in a city with a ton of pollution and like,
53:56
what am I going to do about it? I don't, I don't
53:59
have the money to see a functional medicine
54:00
doctor and get my testing and see, you know,
54:03
where my toxic load is at and do the detox, you
54:05
know, protocol, you know, gosh, like, you know,
54:08
there's all of that maybe I don't know what's
54:12
going on with my microbiome of my gut and you
54:14
know, if it's leaky or not and that's impeding my
54:17
healing and I don't know about my stress levels.
54:20
Like I'm having a hard time struggling and so I'm
54:23
inflamed all the time and angry and I might have
54:26
micronutrient deficiencies and things like that.
54:29
But it seems like sun was something that as
54:32
dermatologists like, okay, that's something that
54:34
we could at least give some guidance on. It's
54:37
something we can maybe control. And then what
54:40
happened is there is a whole misinformation about
54:43
sunscreen. Chemical sunscreens have gotten the
54:47
spotlight of like, you know, don't put chemical
54:50
sunscreens on your skin. And I would say most
54:52
dermatologists never even recommended those. From
54:55
the beginning. We've, we've anchored into the
54:57
zinc oxide sunscreens and sunscreen where you
54:59
can't cover and covering with clothing is
55:01
actually number one. Sunscreen is probably number
55:05
two. And then, you know, reapplying. And so what
55:11
also has happened with the industry is sunscreen
55:13
used to be sunblock and so then it was, it blocks
55:17
the sun and you're safe and you can be out there
55:20
as long as you want and you're fine and we had
55:24
the FDA take that off a lot of the labels of
55:26
sunscreen, because that's not true. It gives you
55:29
that false sense of security. And even sunscreen,
55:31
it's a screen. It's not perfect. You're still
55:34
going to get some of those UV rays in. Now then
55:37
we go into. Well, if it's. If you're blocking
55:39
yourself all the time, maybe that's not the
55:42
healthiest. And that's where I think things are
55:44
shifting a little bit, that maybe you get a
55:47
little bit of sun without protection, maybe when
55:50
the UV index is around 2, so you get a little bit
55:53
of vitamin D. However, if you have a SNP in your
55:56
vitamin D receptor, it doesn't matter how much
55:59
sun you get. You may not absorb it from the sun
56:02
entirely. So there's that subset of people.
56:04
Right. So we have all of these different, like,
56:07
caveats to everything, I guess. I don't know
56:11
where you want to go with that, but there's.
56:13
There's so much. Yeah.
56:15
Meredith Oke: Super interesting. So if we are, you know.
56:18
Because we talk a lot about that the sun is
56:21
actually the source of life and is good for you.
56:24
Now, obviously, you don't want to get a sunburn.
56:29
That is not good. But what. How do you feel about
56:32
a tan? And how do you feel about. If we want to
56:35
get, like, a really high vitamin D level in the
56:37
summer for those of us who can. Would. Going
56:42
outside.
56:44
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yeah. So that. Yeah.
56:46
Meredith Oke: From the sunshine.
56:48
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: There's interesting data about intermittent sun
56:52
exposure increasing your risk for skin cancer,
56:56
chronic sun exposure lessening the risk. So it's
57:01
fascinating now whether or not.
57:04
Meredith Oke: Intermittent being like, I live in Minnesota and
57:07
I fly to Mexico and I lie out in the noonday sun,
57:11
and then I come back.
57:13
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Or like, what I used to do when I was little.
57:16
It's 50 degrees. I'm gonna lay out. I was a
57:18
teenager, I was gonna get tan. And, you know, and
57:21
then it's like, as soon as it's warm out, I'm out
57:23
there, and I'm only getting sun certain times of
57:26
the year. And the rest of the the time I'm like,
57:27
indoors and, you know, and. And there's also,
57:31
like, we're in front of screens. We're getting
57:32
the blue light at night. Like, there's all these,
57:34
like, different. Different pieces. But to kind of
57:37
answer your question, so, you know, obviously not
57:41
a sunburn. But then when you start noticing the
57:43
browning of the skin, then it's like the little
57:47
kind of keratinocyte or skin cell. There's a
57:49
melanocyte for every, let's say, 30 of those. And
57:52
what it does and it's kind of like, I don't know,
57:55
it's kind of like an amoeba shape, I guess, is
57:57
kind of how it's kind of, I think of it. And then
57:59
the keratinocyte is kind of like a block. And
58:02
what it does is it kind of goes over and it tries
58:04
to cover it and protect it. And then when you
58:07
have more of that network, that's when we're
58:09
starting to see a tan. And then it's, you know,
58:12
depending on what is going on with your body,
58:14
with your immune system, with your stress levels,
58:16
with your exposures, who knows how long that can
58:19
hold? Who knows how long that can protect? And
58:24
then can that keratinocyte somehow, when it makes
58:27
a new layer, because every month we get in a new
58:29
epidermis, can it make a mistake? And does your
58:32
body have the right tools in its immune system to
58:35
catch that mistake, repair it? Are we doing
58:38
things at night to detox and repair? Are we
58:41
getting off devices? Are we healing at night? Are
58:44
we adequately doing that? What is our toxic load?
58:47
What is our detox pathway? How are we repairing?
58:51
So certainly there might be a small set of people
58:54
that, yes, they can BTN and go out and do that.
58:58
But there's caveats like, we don't know. And
59:01
there's a delay, right? So there's a delay in
59:04
what we did when we're younger and what ends up
59:06
happening later. And there is like a senescence,
59:09
there is a dipening of the immune system and the
59:12
repair factors as we get older because the body
59:15
is trying to repair all these other things, too.
59:18
Then what we did earlier, is there a memory and
59:21
is there something going on that gets carried on
59:23
later? We don't know how that life's going to
59:25
unfold. If we have a child who's out getting tan
59:29
all the time, and then later in life they live a
59:33
very toxic lifestyle, there might be more at risk
59:37
for things. It's so hard to answer the question
59:41
with not knowing all of the things and all of the
59:44
details and what's right. And then the photo
59:48
damage, like, that's real. That. Yeah, that
59:51
sucks. That's like. I mean, I would say the
59:55
majority of the women I see all ages into their
59:59
90s. How do I. How do you help me with brown
1:00:02
spots? How do you help me with wrinkles? I don't
1:00:04
do cosmetic dermatology, but all of us are trying
1:00:06
to reverse some of that photo aging that has
1:00:09
happened. And I don't think all aging is just
1:00:11
from the sun. It's not, there's a lot of other
1:00:14
factors that go in it, but it's something that
1:00:16
maybe we can mitigate. So when we are starting to
1:00:19
notice, like, okay, I'm getting a little bit of
1:00:22
freckling and discoloration on my skin. My body's
1:00:25
not maybe ready for this. Maybe I need to work on
1:00:28
some things if I'm getting sunburn. Like, okay,
1:00:31
yeah, too fast, too hard, gotta, gotta calm, calm
1:00:35
down. And so there's just, there's just so much
1:00:38
to, to go over there.
1:00:41
Meredith Oke: I totally, it makes, it makes perfect sense
1:00:45
especially like having such a, an in depth level
1:00:48
of experience. And it absolutely makes perfect
1:00:51
sense that there's nothing that we can say like
1:00:54
just do this and have it not be related to
1:00:58
everything else you're doing. So with the
1:01:00
exception of sunrise and sunset, like it's really
1:01:04
hard to hurt yourself with those. But, but during
1:01:07
the, the high intensity parts of the day, it's
1:01:10
like what I hear you saying is that it really
1:01:13
depends what the whole rest of your life is. Like
1:01:15
are you, are you eating real food? Are you
1:01:19
blocking non native EMFs as much as possible? Are
1:01:23
you sleeping in the dark? Are you like all of
1:01:26
these other things are going to inform how well
1:01:32
your body can handle high intensity sun? Is that
1:01:37
yes.
1:01:38
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: So fair. And also your mitochondrial health, like
1:01:42
so there's an interesting study that came out, oh
1:01:45
my gosh, a long, a while ago, I can't remember
1:01:48
the year. I'm a clinician, not a researcher, so.
1:01:52
But it was about niacinamide or nicotinamide and
1:01:55
how there were two groups of people in Australia
1:01:58
and one group took it twice a day and the other
1:02:01
group didn't take it. And everybody was at risk
1:02:04
for skin cancers that had skin cancers and pre
1:02:07
skin cancers. And when they looked at it a year
1:02:09
later, there's a 23% reduction in squamous cells
1:02:13
and the people that took the niacinamide. And I
1:02:15
was like, oh, of course, mitochondrial health,
1:02:18
it's on the electron transport chain. So there's
1:02:21
something there, there's something there. So that
1:02:24
is something that we recommend is, you know,
1:02:27
there are antioxidant supplements that can help
1:02:29
you as well, to help protect you. It's not all
1:02:33
hats and sunglasses and sunscreen and clothing.
1:02:37
You could also do things from the inside out too.
1:02:39
So there's all of that perspective. And then also
1:02:42
about skin cancer. I mean it's not just one
1:02:45
thing. Even melanoma is not One thing, there's
1:02:49
different types, there's different subtypes.
1:02:52
There are, you know, melanocytes are a type of
1:02:55
cell that is not only in your skin, it's in your
1:02:58
eyes, it's in your sinuses, it's in your
1:02:59
genitalia, it's in your mucosa. So I mean, you
1:03:04
can get melanoma without sun exposure. There are
1:03:08
melanomas that exist in areas that don't have sun
1:03:10
exposure. We do know that we see them more
1:03:13
frequently on sun exposure, those areas. And
1:03:17
melanoma is a very high risk because there are
1:03:20
variants that can break off and spread. And we've
1:03:23
tried to figure out, okay, if it's this deep in
1:03:25
the skin, it's higher risk to break off and
1:03:27
spread. And sometimes that guideline is great and
1:03:31
it's really helpful and sometimes it's not. And
1:03:34
sometimes things progress. And we've done all the
1:03:37
things and we thought it was something that was
1:03:39
in the surface or superficial and did the things,
1:03:42
but it spread more. So there's a lot of things we
1:03:44
don't know about that. And you know, each skin
1:03:47
cancer is named after the type of cell that grows
1:03:49
more than it should. So a basal cell is a basal
1:03:53
layer between the epidermis and the dermis. And
1:03:55
it's that lining. It's the most common type of
1:03:57
skin cancer. And I've heard in different realms
1:04:01
of, oh, it's, you know, it's nothing, you can
1:04:03
just let it be. But there's subtypes, there's
1:04:06
superficial spreading where it spreads, there's
1:04:08
infiltrative aggressive where it goes down. And
1:04:10
it doesn't really look like much on the skin.
1:04:13
It's like a little scar, but it's diving deep and
1:04:14
it's destructive. So why not get those taken care
1:04:18
of with a board certified dermatologist and then
1:04:21
work on like, okay, why the heck am I getting
1:04:23
these? What can I do on the inside? And then
1:04:26
squamous cells, it's, it's, you know, the rest of
1:04:29
the cell layer in the epidermis are squamous
1:04:31
cells. And we have squamous cells in our linings.
1:04:34
So when you google just squamous cell cancer, you
1:04:36
might come across lung cancer of squamous cell.
1:04:38
And that behaves very differently than skin. Then
1:04:41
depending on the type and subtype, location and
1:04:44
size, things behave differently. A squamous cell
1:04:48
that's invasive and we call it poorly
1:04:50
differentiated mean it's kind of like all over
1:04:52
the place and not really defined if it's on the
1:04:55
scalp or on the lip or in front of the ear, it's
1:04:57
a higher risk to go to those lymph nodes. But if
1:04:59
you have a superficial one that maybe is on your
1:05:02
abdomen or your arm, those things less likely to
1:05:06
break off and spread. So there's all these like
1:05:08
nuances when I hear the conversation about skin
1:05:11
cancer information on the different realms. Like,
1:05:13
oh, there's so many things there. And it's almost
1:05:16
like if you think of the types of skin cancer,
1:05:19
it's like watching movie, right? So there's,
1:05:22
there's a ton of different movie choices you
1:05:23
could do or a ton of different limited series,
1:05:25
right? So most skin cancers are the slow burners.
1:05:29
They're like, they kind of slowly will grow and
1:05:32
slowly show up and you're like, okay, what is
1:05:34
this thing? I don't know. This kind of looks
1:05:36
weird. Weird. It's not dry skin, you know, it's
1:05:38
not a pimple anymore. It's a mole that's changed.
1:05:41
It's kind of a slow burner. So we have like those
1:05:43
and then we have like the action packed. Like
1:05:45
this thing's growing. It's coming up like crazy.
1:05:48
We're going in fast and we're getting rid of it
1:05:50
fast and things are going on. And then there's
1:05:52
the happy endings, right? So there's the movies
1:05:55
that, you know, happy ending, everything's great,
1:05:57
we got it treated, we figured out what's going
1:05:59
on, we figured out the root. We're working on all
1:06:02
the things and it's not coming back. And I guess
1:06:04
this conversation can be about eczema too. But
1:06:07
most of them are mysteries. Most of them we don't
1:06:11
know. We don't know how each individual got to
1:06:14
that moment in time. We don't have all of the
1:06:17
information of what were they eating, what was
1:06:19
their lifestyle like, where did they grow up, how
1:06:21
much were they on an airplane, exposed to emf,
1:06:23
exposed to UV light, exposed to toxic engine
1:06:26
stuff from the fuel, exposed to all these things,
1:06:29
you know, were they exposed to a lot of sun when
1:06:31
they're driving? Because we think we're safe in
1:06:33
our cars, but we still get sun in our cars, even
1:06:35
with tinted wind windows. What, what were they
1:06:37
eating? What was their life like? And so part of
1:06:40
this is just embracing that and knowing that
1:06:44
sometimes things are mysterious and sometimes we
1:06:47
go out exploring and sometimes we get information
1:06:50
back and it's really helpful. And sometimes we
1:06:53
revel in the mystery and sometimes that's where
1:06:56
we land of like, I don't know how this happened.
1:06:59
I'm going to move forward from here and go
1:07:02
through what I need to do and find my path.
1:07:07
Meredith Oke: That's so beautiful. That's a beautiful way to
1:07:13
look at health in general. Right. We really just
1:07:17
want there to be, okay, give me the three things,
1:07:20
give me the three things to do and I'll be
1:07:22
healthy forever. And it just, we're on a non
1:07:25
linear trajectory here and so beautiful to hear,
1:07:32
to hear you look at it that way. Especially like
1:07:37
you have the medical background and all of the
1:07:39
things and you're still able to embrace the
1:07:41
mystery.
1:07:43
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yeah, I think, you know, we all have our own
1:07:45
personal health journeys too. Like you kind of
1:07:48
forced to at some point in your life, if you
1:07:50
haven't already, it's probably going to happen.
1:07:53
Not to, you know, wish on anybody, but it's like
1:07:56
we're, we're here for the experience. We're not
1:07:59
here very long. We're here to learn, we're here
1:08:01
to grow, we're here to expand, we're here to
1:08:02
connect. Like we're on a journey. It's like we
1:08:06
are, we're creating a movie here. We're a
1:08:09
creator. What is it? How are we going to live
1:08:11
today? What are we going to do today? What are we
1:08:13
going to explore? What are we going to be curious
1:08:15
about? What pathway, what doorways is that going
1:08:17
to open up for me today? What if I watch Sunrise
1:08:21
and I'm off my devices tonight? Like, how am I
1:08:24
going to sleep the next night? What's going to
1:08:26
happen? And just explain that. What is this UVA
1:08:29
Rise and kind of looking into it a little bit and
1:08:32
being willing to explore and see. Yeah.
1:08:36
Meredith Oke: I love it. I love it. And yeah, and to pay
1:08:41
attention to how our body is responding. And I
1:08:45
will just say your recommendation about Luno
1:08:50
getting spots checked out by a board certified
1:08:53
dermatologist. I wholeheartedly second that. We
1:09:00
have an integrative family physician who supports
1:09:02
us spending lots of time outside. But he's like,
1:09:05
everyone should get checked every year and if you
1:09:08
see anything, get rid of it, get it taken care
1:09:11
of. So I think that's really solid advice and I
1:09:14
think worth just throwing that out there to our
1:09:18
audience because we do love, we do love the sun.
1:09:21
But that is, you know, as you say, we were
1:09:25
infinitely mysterious and we're just so early in
1:09:29
understanding how, how everything really works in
1:09:33
the world. So. So just to wrap up, Michelle, tell
1:09:37
us about sort of where you are now with your
1:09:39
practice. You've gone through many iterations and
1:09:42
how can people find you?
1:09:44
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Yeah, so I work in a traditional Dermatology
1:09:48
practice that takes insurance in Phoenix,
1:09:50
Arizona. It's in a suburb called Chandler. So the
1:09:55
name of that practice is East Valley Dermatology.
1:09:57
So if you're in the area and you just want to do
1:10:01
a skin cancer screening and schedule an
1:10:03
appointment, we take insurance, we do some cash
1:10:06
pay, but it's, you know, a traditional
1:10:08
dermatology practice. I've kind of come to a
1:10:12
point with everything else, all of the training
1:10:15
I've gathered and all of the things that I've
1:10:17
learned, that coming back to just our natural
1:10:21
cycles and the natural things and the cycles of
1:10:25
the day, working with optimizing your circadian
1:10:28
health, optimizing your sleep, optimizing your
1:10:31
skin care, figuring out that there are different
1:10:35
cycles that happen with our gut throughout the
1:10:37
day, that there's different cycles that happen
1:10:39
with our skin throughout the day, there's
1:10:41
different cycles that happen with our hormones
1:10:43
every month. There's all of these fascinating
1:10:46
cycles. And so I've put together everything
1:10:50
together into a concept called the skin clock
1:10:53
method. And it's working with aligning yourself
1:10:56
and figuring out where am I at with all of these
1:10:59
cycles, where am I at with my rhythms, where am I
1:11:01
at with connecting my health and my body with
1:11:04
nature cycles? And how can I align that? And it's
1:11:09
a four part series and, and it works on this
1:11:12
bigger cycle of life. And I call it the luminous
1:11:15
cycle. But basically it's like sometimes we need
1:11:18
to just start with a pause and see, like, where
1:11:21
am I at with everything? And then things kind of
1:11:24
start to be illuminated of what's going on with
1:11:26
us. So that first step is pausing and
1:11:29
illuminating where am I at with everything? I've
1:11:31
never thought about some of this stuff before,
1:11:34
kind of assessing all of those different clocks,
1:11:36
your daily clocks, your monthly clocks, and then
1:11:38
these bigger, wider cycles of seasonal clocks.
1:11:41
And then the next step is we have to make a step
1:11:44
of like, where are we going to emerge? What are
1:11:46
we going to do next? What are we going to create
1:11:48
with our lives? What are we going to do with all
1:11:50
of these things? How is it that we want to live
1:11:52
and making those decisions of creating and
1:11:54
emerging and all of these different cycles of
1:11:56
like, well, what do I want to do? And then the
1:11:59
next phase is manifesting and really living into
1:12:02
that and actually nurturing and sustaining those
1:12:04
habits, getting into those, really syncing up,
1:12:07
really fine tuning, really refining things. And
1:12:10
then we get to a point where we realize, well,
1:12:11
there might be some things I don't need anymore,
1:12:14
there might be some things that I've transcended
1:12:16
that maybe I don't need. And we're letting go and
1:12:18
we're surrendering of things. And sometimes that
1:12:21
lands us in another place of, okay, I gotta pause
1:12:23
again. I'm not quite sure what's going on again.
1:12:26
I just let go of something that was a big deal. I
1:12:28
gotta pause again. And once, you know, this cycle
1:12:31
of kind of illuminating things, things becoming,
1:12:34
emerging things being nurtured and sustained and
1:12:37
manifested, and things letting go. There are so
1:12:40
many things in our lives that do that. So our
1:12:43
breath does that. We have a pause in our breath.
1:12:46
We have an opening of the breath, we have a
1:12:48
releasing of the breath. We have a pause of the
1:12:50
breath. We have that whole cycle. Our skin goes
1:12:53
through that cycle. There's a daytime cycle,
1:12:56
there's, you know, a monthly cycle. Our hormones
1:13:00
go through that. As a female, menstruating
1:13:02
females, we have a cycle that every week we might
1:13:05
go through a different piece of that path. The
1:13:08
day is structured like that too. So we come from
1:13:11
sleep where we're, you know, pausing, and then
1:13:14
the day comes and we're illuminating the day.
1:13:16
We're illuminating what's happening, and then we
1:13:19
emerge and we kind of go out into the day of what
1:13:21
we're going to create. And the sun is rising, and
1:13:24
we're doing different things during that time.
1:13:26
And then we're manifesting. We're doing different
1:13:28
things midday and later in the day and different
1:13:30
activities and different things are going on as
1:13:32
the sun is going, going, and then transcending.
1:13:35
We're kind of letting go at night. Are we able to
1:13:38
let go of what happened during the day? Are we,
1:13:40
you know, able to release that day and look for
1:13:43
the next day? So there's all these different
1:13:45
cycles, and they merge together. And so bringing
1:13:50
that all together is how you can manifest what I
1:13:53
call your chrono beauty and how you're able to
1:13:56
align your cycles and align all of these things
1:13:59
manifest into who you are meant to be, who you're
1:14:02
meant to be, aligning with all of these things.
1:14:04
So that's what's next.
1:14:07
Meredith Oke: Gorgeous. So are you supporting patients to go to
1:14:14
create their or identify their personal chrono
1:14:19
cycles?
1:14:20
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Absolutely. Whoever is interested in it, it's
1:14:23
foundational. It's kind of coming back to our
1:14:26
roots and coming back to the foundations of how
1:14:29
are we nourishing ourselves? How are we living
1:14:31
our lives? How are we handling stress? How do we
1:14:34
see the world? What does that come from? How are
1:14:37
we metabolizing life? And when we talk about
1:14:40
metabolizing Food and, you know, in quantum
1:14:42
metabolizing light is a big part of this too. But
1:14:46
how are we metabolizing just life in, in general?
1:14:49
And so some patients that I see in the clinic
1:14:52
are. This is not aligned with them. You know,
1:14:54
they're, they're not ready for this. It's not in
1:14:57
their vibe. It's not right. And for others, it's
1:15:01
like, yes. So it's, it's, it's not limited to, to
1:15:05
any of that. It's. It's open to who wants to
1:15:08
learn this, who wants to, who's ready for this,
1:15:11
who, who wants to step into this, this level of
1:15:14
healing. And it doesn't, you know, go against
1:15:17
doing functional medicine things because we need
1:15:19
that layer a lot of times, or doing traditional
1:15:22
dermatology and traditional medicine, we need
1:15:24
that too, or doing energetic work. It's
1:15:28
supportive of all of that. And it actually, if we
1:15:31
have these foundational pieces in place and we're
1:15:33
able to recognize these cycles and see where
1:15:36
maybe we're off kilter and kind of realign and
1:15:38
get in tune with that, it might make all those
1:15:40
other things go a lot easier. It might make us
1:15:43
more responsive to those things too. So as I've
1:15:46
kind of like gone out into all the trainings and
1:15:49
then I'm coming back home, coming back home to
1:15:52
all of those rooted things and.
1:15:53
Meredith Oke: All of those things and metabolizing them and
1:15:56
putting them together into their own unique
1:15:59
offering. That's beautiful. It's so funny you're
1:16:04
saying everything has this cycle because I just
1:16:06
launched a coaching program for, for business
1:16:09
owners and I had this. I was trying to think of
1:16:13
how to articulate something, and I had this cycle
1:16:15
come to me and it was like momentum, which moves
1:16:18
into chaos. Could be like creative chaos or it
1:16:22
could be the overwhelmed chaos, whatever, not
1:16:24
like as a neutral world. And that word. And then
1:16:26
that chaos pushes us to seek further clarity. And
1:16:31
then that clarity up levels the business, which
1:16:33
creates momentum, which. So, so everything is a
1:16:37
cycle from our breath to our business. And how
1:16:41
beautiful you're pulling it all together.
1:16:43
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: I love what you just said, because that is
1:16:45
another truth here, is that it keeps up leveling,
1:16:48
like you said, and then you come around to
1:16:50
another cycle, just like you said. And then what
1:16:53
you do now, it builds up to that next layer and
1:16:55
that next cycle that you come around. So just
1:16:57
like you said, what happens in that cycle of
1:17:00
coaching, it. It, you know, primes you for like
1:17:02
that next. And then we go through another cycle
1:17:04
and there's, there's so much I Don't know, like,
1:17:06
a sense of, like, peace of like, oh, that's where
1:17:10
I'm at. Here I am. I'm in the chaos. I'm in the
1:17:14
creative chaos.
1:17:15
Meredith Oke: Terrible. I'm just in a chaos phase.
1:17:17
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Right. And then. But there's something after it.
1:17:19
And yeah, I had momentum. Like, this makes sense.
1:17:22
Okay. And then it just, like it allows you to
1:17:25
open and expand and anchor in. And then open and
1:17:28
expand and anchor in. So, yes. Like, you said
1:17:31
that so beautifully.
1:17:34
Meredith Oke: Oh, this is so wonderful. I love it. I'm so glad
1:17:37
we got to talk. Michelle. Thank you so much. And
1:17:41
I could. I can feel your offer resonating. I know
1:17:45
we're. No one's listening to us right now, but I
1:17:47
can feel in the quantum field, I could hear
1:17:50
everyone going, I want to work with Michelle. So
1:17:54
just to clarify that the chrono beauty piece is.
1:17:58
You see people virtually. It's not necessarily at
1:18:01
the clinic. That's a separate.
1:18:02
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: It's. Yeah, it's completely separate. And so it's
1:18:06
just an online program. It's going to be a series
1:18:09
of online meditation retreats that are optimized
1:18:12
for an optimal circadian day. And so each piece
1:18:16
of it is going to go through one part of the
1:18:18
cycle. And as you go through that cycle, you're
1:18:21
going to go through an optimized circadian day.
1:18:23
Like, we're going to have something happening at
1:18:25
sunrise and then at Uva rise. You know, what are
1:18:29
we. What are we doing now? What is our skin up to
1:18:31
now? What's our gut up to now? You know, all of
1:18:34
that. And so walking you through all those
1:18:36
pieces. So it's still in the. In the. I don't
1:18:40
know, in the ethers of creation. And so if you
1:18:44
join me on Instagram. Instagram @Doctor Jeffries,
1:18:46
or you go to my website, DrMichelleJeffries.com
1:18:51
or the Skin Clock method. Eventually there'll be
1:18:53
things where you can go on the wait list and get
1:18:55
signed up for it, but it's coming very, very
1:18:57
soon. We're putting on some of those final
1:19:00
touches and final evolutions of it. So thank you.
1:19:04
Meredith Oke: I love it. And so. And we'll put the. We'll put
1:19:06
the links to all of that in the show notes as
1:19:10
well. I'm just. Just for people who are, like,
1:19:14
driving and will never look at the show notes.
1:19:17
Dr. Michelle jeffries.com. so D R M I C H E L L E
1:19:24
J E F F r I e s.com or, or your Instagram. Thank
1:19:36
you so much. This was pleasure. Pleasure. And as
1:19:38
you were talking, I'm like, I have 10 more
1:19:40
questions about that. I have 10 more questions
1:19:42
about that. So we'll have to do it again.
1:19:44
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Absolutely. I know. There's just so much. I was
1:19:49
so excited to talk to you about this podcast and
1:19:52
all the things. There's just so much to talk
1:19:54
about and so many layers. And I just. I so
1:19:57
appreciate all the work that you're doing, and
1:19:59
I'm so grateful that I came across you. As I was
1:20:01
looking into, gosh, I want to learn more about
1:20:04
quantum and circadian. What courses are
1:20:07
available, what. What programs are available? And
1:20:10
I was like, you know, going to these university
1:20:12
websites, I'm like, I don't want another degree.
1:20:14
I just. I just want to learn more. What can I do?
1:20:18
What conferences are available. And that is how I
1:20:21
stumbled on you. And so, so grateful. And I
1:20:23
listened to your podcast. I learned so much. It
1:20:26
keeps my mind open, it keeps my heart open. And I
1:20:29
just. I just love all that you're doing and the
1:20:31
rabbit holes that you go on. I'm right there with
1:20:33
you.
1:20:35
Meredith Oke: Thank you. Thank you really a lot for saying
1:20:38
that, because sometimes it's just like jumping
1:20:43
into the void. And I so appreciate your support.
1:20:45
I can feel it. And I'm so glad you found us. What
1:20:49
you're offering to the world is really
1:20:52
outstanding, so thanks.
1:20:54
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Well, you've played a piece in it, for sure.
1:20:57
Meredith Oke: Thank you.
1:20:58
Dr. Michelle Jeffries: Thank you.