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Bonus Patreon Release: the Apache Kid! With Matt Parent! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sounds good.
• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,
• 0:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
• 0:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: No.
• 0:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's less gay cowboys.
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: When you go a little lower, unfortunately.
• 0:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you, oh, now I sound like a- No, that's- Who's- And now I sound like curly from Oklahoma.
• 0:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: There you go.
• 0:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
• 0:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is, of course, the host of the incredible escape the motorbors podcast along with their spouse, Allison.
• 0:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Matt, I'm opening this month just by asking everybody, what's your connection to cowboy western genre or motifs?
• 0:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any favorite series comics movies?
• 0:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I have kind of a complicated relationship with cowboys in general as a native person, but the person from who I drive membership of the Seminolation, my grandfather,
• 1:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: loves cowboy, like media, like desperately, desperately loves it.
• 1:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, he refers to himself as a word.
• 1:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to say on your show.
• 1:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but pronounced.
• 1:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think if you say it, you can say it.
• 1:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I sure.
• 1:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say he refers to himself as an engine.
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, at that then that's why he likes the cowboy movies, because he can kind of like get to like play pretend a little bit.
• 1:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a
• 1:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a, well, I mean, when we talk about Apache skies, there's some, there's some language there, but that's a Mac series, and that's like kind of going for that, but I, I am a little separate from my like identity, a little bored my cowboy media, there's, there's something that like,
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: makes my eyes glaze over a little bit.
• 2:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, there is obviously some really great cowboy media.
• 2:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love three tend to humour.
• 2:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like both three tend to humour.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really love the manuscript, Liberty Valence.
• 2:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that movie is, it's like probably Jimmy Stewart's like best performance outside of maybe it's a wonderful life.
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a, I have a love hate relationship I would say with, with cowboy and western media.
• 2:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So today is going to be a little bit editorial, everybody.
• 2:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Matt and I are from different walks of life.
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're good friends at this point.
• 2:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we have had conversations on the show when we did the Thunderbird about John Proud start up.
• 2:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: So primarily really delving into kind of tropes in Native American or indigenous storytelling.
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: This episode is going to be a little bit like the episode I did on the Lord of the Lut, the Jungle Girl with Haram Scaram and Robin.
• 2:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: in that we're taking a 50s comic and just giving it kind of an analytical lens.
• 3:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be talking about the character, the Apache Kid today, and the Apache Kid is a Marvel comic.
• 3:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let me set this up quickly.
• 3:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: In 1950, the short-running series KC Crime Photographer was retitled at issue number five as two gun western.
• 3:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the spring of 1950, and some comic grates are doing some of their earliest work, including John Dishema and Jean Colin, and the opening feature in this new issue, number 5, is a John Bhushema creation, both the writing and the art, and the character's name is the Apache Kid.
• 3:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now above the logo is we go under the first one.
• 3:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are two faces.
• 3:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's an indigenous man in war paint with feathers in his hair and a white man in a blue cowboy hat and next to both of them it's does starring the Apache kid.
• 3:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: It says it twice as in they are both Apache kid.
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're the same person.
• 3:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: The book is ten cents.
• 3:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: We see an indigenous man on the cover writing a black horse named Knightwind.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's carrying a gun.
• 4:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: He has a bow and arrow strap to his back.
• 4:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's shirtless and warpaint and has a shield that is covered in an insignia that looks like red lightning flanked by black bird totems.
• 4:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: The kid is in the middle and the two there's two groups of armed men writing at him.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: One group is a white and one group is native.
• 4:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: and they both want him dead.
• 4:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm a little intrigued based on this cover.
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's my first introduction to this character.
• 4:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: The quote underneath then says, the Apache kid is he man or devil.
• 4:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we already now at a big problem because man implies the white part of his nature and devil implies the indigenous part of his nature.
• 4:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're gonna go you already.
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now as we open the book inside it says,
• 4:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Part Apache, part pioneer.
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: The most exciting figure in the Wild West was a two-gun, two-knife Avenger, whose name inspired terror throughout the turbulent southwest frontier, caught between two worlds that refused to live in peace.
• 5:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: This intrepid fighter has to had to dodge hatreds as venomous as bullets in order to bring order to the border, which is I love a good rhyme.
• 5:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: tasks that would have confounded armies where the daily assignments of this dual identity doler for justice the Apache kid.
• 5:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm going to do the origin quickly.
• 5:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: There we're going to pause because I just want to set this character up.
• 5:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Chief Redhawk in this story leads his men to attack a camp of quote unquote defenseless white men in stage coaches.
• 5:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: The white men call them do you think it's okay for me to use the word engine if we're saying it in common?
• 5:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think you can say
• 5:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you should say it.
• 5:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would never hear that word myself.
• 5:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know that.
• 5:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: The white men call them engines.
• 5:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: The natives call the white men pale faces.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a white mother named Mrs. Crandel who dies in order to let her son's Allen and her daughter Mary and another kidney Billy Gregory all escape.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the boy Allen is captured by the warrior, the native warrior, brown
• 6:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: and taking back to Chief Red Hawk who sees bravery in this white boy and lets him live.
• 6:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: He plans to raise the child to be loyal to indigenous people and then to send him back into white communities as a spy which frankly is smart because you're at war but they live in your territory.
• 6:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, it turns out that Redhawk, the chief, is working with a white guy named, oh, excuse me.
• 6:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: It turns out that Brown-Tode has been working with a white guy named Fanon, who's been supplying the natives with guns.
• 6:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, white men have the, let the indigenous people have guns.
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be a problem.
• 6:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's criminal action.
• 6:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: If we let them arm themselves, time goes by and Allen impresses the whole tribe of that how amazing he is at everything.
• 6:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: But Brown-Tode and his friend, Crook and I are jealous of Allen.
• 6:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And years later, Allen states, I am not one of you Red Hawk.
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: How can I be like the Apache's when they kill my people?
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you have my notes pulled up, do you want to read Red Hawk here?
• 6:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do not, but I can pull them up.
• 6:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't really tell anyone, I can't, sorry.
• 7:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, that's fine.
• 7:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have war of the realms up, because the plot is kind of complicated.
• 7:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm here to support you.
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha.
• 7:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can.
• 7:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I could just read it.
• 7:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Could you put your mind on?
• 7:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have will pull it up for them.
• 7:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, you're good.
• 7:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Redhawk replies, but they kill us or doesn't that matter.
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Perhaps someday you will see our side of this struggle, young one.
• 7:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Another year passes, and Alan takes the name the Apache kid and the group of white men attack the indigenous community, murdering, murdering.
• 7:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: dozens of warriors and at least two women as they burn it all down.
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Apache Kid realizes that white men can also be evil and so he vows to kill no man neither red or white moving forward.
• 7:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Red Hawk says the pale faces have a saying.
• 7:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: A dead engine is a good engine.
• 7:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: they must be happy for my village is very, very good.
• 7:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that line breaks my heart.
• 7:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a really sad line.
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Allen says, forgive me Red Hawk.
• 7:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I see now that when the pale faces take our lands and our lives, we Apache's must fight the way we know.
• 8:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the boy decides to pretend to be a roving cowboy named Elosius Care, Elosius Care.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the name nobody can take seriously, he says.
• 8:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: but the first time in the village and his cover is blown because grown up Billy Gregory is there and he's married Allen's sister Mary remember he had a sister who lived also.
• 8:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Allen tells Billy everything and Billy puts him in jail where a guard calls him an engine lover wanting to end in uh wanting an end to the bloodshed Mary lets Allen out and he rushes into the prairie where he stains his skin with root juice.
• 8:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: and then applies war paint.
• 8:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he's in red face with war paint and then he starts a grass fire to separate the warring white men on one side and native men on the other side.
• 8:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: The white men end up dying in the fire and the Apache kid chooses to ride on a low.
• 9:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think we've really ever seen his sister again.
• 9:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so the final quote in the story, and so the Apache kid rides into the sunset to accomplish his mission of justice for all, as a loacious care, the tumbleweed cowboy, and as the Apache kid, knife-throwing wizard of the west.
• 9:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the mat.
• 9:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have some I have some some quick just like blanket thoughts very quickly very interesting to say that a caravan full of settlers is is is is helpless as what kind of violence are they going to perpetrate when they get to your land.
• 9:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, but what I will say is you don't remind me of remind me of the movie Dumbo in the movie Dumbo the the Jim Crow Five or to our sensibilities
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: incredibly racist.
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're really, really stereotypical.
• 9:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: However, the time of the movie, having the like supporting cast be these charming black people who will pull me well and want to help our hero actually was unique for a movie.
• 10:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel the same thing about this, where it is like there's some real underhanded things that are said about native people in this.
• 10:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: However, the fact that it's even trying to be like, he's from both worlds, both worlds have violence, both worlds are good in some ways.
• 10:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is does feel sort of unique for the 50s?
• 10:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So for many, many years, Disney, and every movie, and every genre, an entire television shows and franchises have been built around the concept of cowboys and Indians.
• 10:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: One is the enemy of the other, right?
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: We see all of these words used to be cruel to indigenous people from red face to savage to the one that seems to be used a lot here, which is Injin, which is a hate word.
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a way of reducing people.
• 10:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: and they are always the thing to be triumphed over.
• 11:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of stories about a simulation.
• 11:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about this a little bit in the John Proud star episode where like dances with wolves is about Kevin Costner learning that in the natives are actually good people.
• 11:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he marries the white one that lives there.
• 11:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have a lot of stories that will try to give you them as the villain and we have stories that will sometimes paint them in a sympathetic light where we see them more in line with what's actually happening in the world around them, right?
• 11:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: This story tries to be both, which is odd.
• 11:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's make it sympathetic, but also, oh, okay, so let's talk about the good.
• 11:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do you like about the Apache kid-oriented story?
• 11:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I like that he his super power sort of is being raised by natives like that as much as that is problematic there's something to empowering the like the the reason that he has these skills is because he grew up with the Apache right.
• 11:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of his secret identity is that he has these skills and it was trained that way.
• 12:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think like the negative is a little bit of the both sides is that like manifest destiny was a primarily like people coming onto land that was not theirs and pushing them off, right?
• 12:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't say that they weren't native people that did really horrible things in that, but it is a little bit like,
• 12:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are the horrible things you do defending yourself as bad as the horrible things someone else does to it?
• 12:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: One of the groups is invading the country of another.
• 12:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 12:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So a person who is, quote, unquote, a villain in the country that's being invaded is different than the person who's there perpetrating war crimes, right?
• 12:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we have to call it that way.
• 12:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have to let it be what it is.
• 12:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It just is.
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you can, because the thing is there was no conquest of the native, the several hundred nation native nations of the United States, they signed 300 trees with those people.
• 12:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that they don't have those countries in those lands now is because the United States of America goes back on on their treaties, like just does not honor the trees that they made with most of those peoples.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so there is a certain amount of energy given toward outlaws.
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: We see outlaws as kind of heroic counterfigures.
• 13:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: We celebrate them at Marvel.
• 13:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're stay tuned for the trial of the raw-hide kid at the end of the month.
• 13:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: That'll be joining me for that one as well.
• 13:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: uh it's a ton of fun but there's a lot of problems and we're going to keep talking about it.
• 13:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So two gun kit and outlock kit.
• 13:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: In real life we have ones that are really immortalized like you know Billy the Kid and Jesse James and Wyatt are been so many others or if you're more men Porter Rockwell falls into this category if you know that name.
• 13:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: The idea of a indigenous person becoming an outlaw is not something we would often celebrate.
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: We would call that something bad or wrong.
• 13:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: We would see that, abs, them.
• 13:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, like someone to be hunted down.
• 13:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'd see that more likely as a supervillain.
• 14:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: But this person, this character is a white character, literally painting himself in root juice.
• 14:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: in order to be an outlaw and when he's an outlaw people think he's native but then he can wash it all off and go blend into white society.
• 14:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's his literal origin.
• 14:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So can I I want to point something out that the the idea that he's a white person obviously yes he was genetically a white person
• 14:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: that's a very kind of American idea, right?
• 14:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: The blood quantum, it's like how much native are you exactly, right?
• 14:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know, but they're patching out a patchy, yeah, I'm seminal.
• 14:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: But in my tribe, and a lot of tribe, especially the Florida tribe that we are derived from, if you were invited into the tribe, you were part of the tribe.
• 14:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So really, he's a patchy, like based on his origin,
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: taken in as a child and raised among them, he would just be, uh, uh, and a patchy.
• 15:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And a patchy by family, found family.
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: By family, not exactly.
• 15:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But not obviously by family.
• 15:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, root juice.
• 15:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And rubbing.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is the thing, right?
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the, that's what I'm saying.
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, from a Western perspective, they're trying to explain it to white folk who don't know that, at best or they don't know that, at probably probable, right?
• 15:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: The root juice thing is crazy.
• 15:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is the, like,
• 15:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Native people are our copper, brown, tend to, like, sort of kind of pale.
• 15:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them, like, it's a red tent, but so are white people, sometimes have red tents.
• 15:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's so weird to do ridges.
• 15:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what are the problems in this story?
• 15:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are the stuff that in this origin really stand out is like, oh, I'm super uncomfortable with this?
• 15:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the, I think like I said, the, oh, they're going after, um, uh, helpless settlers, that's, that's, that's problematic to me.
• 16:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, red face, it's pretty problematic.
• 16:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Especially his reason for red face, right?
• 16:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: His reason is to like to hide behind it a little bit.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: As he goes to the tax bad.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a certain lens where this is heroic in that he's trying to protect indigenous people.
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: But in order to do that, you have to operate from the there's good people on both sides.
• 16:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Conversely.
• 16:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're having a lot of conversations on the show about like when is it okay to punch a Nazi, right?
• 16:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like these people are invading their land and we're saying like, oh, just trust that white people are going to be fine.
• 16:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it only takes one village burned down, right?
• 16:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like Chief Redhock, like we're saying like our village is very good indeed and that, you know, they, they, it's gone.
• 16:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's heartbreaking.
• 16:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's crazy because the story takes place in like during manifest destiny.
• 16:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So our people are very good indeed isn't like the center of the conflict.
• 16:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: My people have been completely erased.
• 16:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you talk to people like further out, who are later assimilated and conquered, it's even if the same, right?
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like the truth of it is like, oh, when is it appropriate to stop a genocide?
• 17:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like it happened.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: My, my, everyone is a school teacher.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to tell the children what manifest destiny is?
• 17:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, manifest destiny.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, manifest destiny is propaganda by the United States to convince people to settle out West.
• 17:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: That it is our freedom.
• 17:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there's free land.
• 17:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is our God-given right to own from the east to the west coast of this continent.
• 17:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a really, really effective propaganda campaign.
• 17:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's this beautiful, who is it?
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's an angel, this beautiful white angel sort of on the painting that I'm thinking of as like caravans are like making their way over.
• 17:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a beautiful image and we teach it sort of as like this like it was inevitable that we were going to get all the way there, but it's like hundreds of countries.
• 18:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: hundreds of peoples just in between, you know, Missouri where this is supposed to start to, you know, California.
• 18:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So as indigenous people in the real world are dealing with forced relocation and coercive policing and the erosion of sovereignty, you can look all these terms off of it's helpful.
• 18:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: As the U.S. is expanding, there is a real historical figure named the Apache kid.
• 18:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is not someone I have ever heard of before doing research.
• 18:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is a white mountain Apache, born around or he, excuse me,
• 18:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: try to pronounce this appropriately, but a Huskye Bay Nay and Pauval, if you look it up, you can see the spelling.
• 18:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: He became a U.S. Army Scout at Ford Apache and he rose to the rank of Sergeant, which marked him as unusually valued within the Army Scout system, especially for an Indigenous person.
• 19:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, we're going to see all these tropes.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: We shame Indigenous people, but we use them when we need them.
• 19:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we name all of our stuff after their sacred words and you know blah, blah, blah.
• 19:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: The central turning point comes for this man in 1887.
• 19:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: His father, his died and rising tensions are happening within the scout community that he was operating and violence is frequently erupting and authorities are arresting people.
• 19:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a chaotic confrontation in which someone named Al Ciber, the famed chief of the scouts, was shot in the leg.
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Responsibility for the shooting was disrupted in retailings, but the consequences were not.
• 19:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Apache kid, whether he did it or not, is not known, ended up arrested, tried, and then sentenced to prison.
• 19:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So two years later, he escaped a prisoner transport near the Kelvin Riverside Station area, triggering one of the most famous mount manhunts in the region at the time.
• 19:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: From that moment on, he was widely portrayed as a dangerous fugitive, and numerous later incidents were attributed to him,
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: reflecting both the periods instability and the racialized scapegoating that frequently shaped frontier reporting about native people.
• 20:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: His death is where history becomes uncertain.
• 20:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Various accounts say he was killed in Mexico after he escaped in the mid-90s, but there's just no proof.
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: The unresolved ending is part of why his story gets branded, he becomes an outlaw.
• 20:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's the Apache kid.
• 20:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this gets remembered in the books, right?
• 20:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a native guy who got falsely tried, or maybe justly tried.
• 20:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's not just, regardless, he went to jail.
• 20:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: He escaped now thereafter.
• 20:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hollywood has kept this alive.
• 20:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Republic Pictures has a film called the Apache Kid from 1941.
• 20:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of a persona of an indigenous outlaw.
• 20:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: We also see Atlas Comics prior to Marvel has a character named the Apache Kid and we see this reflected multiple times.
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: The idea of the indigenous outlaws reflected all over Westerns.
• 20:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to point out, because this is something that you said and you're 100% right to say it.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: He is an ally, if he did do the things within the United States like that is becoming, right?
• 21:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: He broke those rules, right?
• 21:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: That we're talking just as like, did you break those rules that you have now become under, right?
• 21:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he is an outlaw.
• 21:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just or unjust, right, did he do it or not?
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really what you're saying, right?
• 21:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, the, it's a very interesting thing.
• 21:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's like one country's entire like system is being sort of like taken over by this other one.
• 21:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like what makes you an outlaw is it having been a part of that other system?
• 21:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously like, you know, a lot of the things he's accused of are crimes, it would be crimes among both, both peoples.
• 21:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: um yeah so you can look up more on this guy if you're interested but to shift it back to the character we now have Marvel or Atlas uh creating a version of this in their comics and stacking it up next to the other westerns so we've got the tropes we've got uh the red hawk who is the father figure
• 22:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: to our character, Alan, and then we have his like cover identity as a locious care, and he is his mission statement is I'm the the Outlaw serving justice.
• 22:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Did you get to read a lot of the old 50s comics at all in prep for this?
• 22:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did not recognize that.
• 22:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they were okay, that is just a side irritation.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: All of these are really hard to find.
• 22:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So is that a batch of guys also hard to find?
• 22:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so the Apache Kid takes on a pretty big presence in the 1950s books alongside our other cowboy heroes.
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Some of whom we've talked about, some of whom you know a lot you've never heard of.
• 22:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: In 1950, the short-running series KC Crime Photographer gets retiled at number 5.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I already covered this part, sorry, I gotta skip ahead.
• 22:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so there's another book coming out called Reno Brown, who is a blonde white cowgirl, by the way, and this her series gets replaced at issue 53 and gets retitled as the Apache kid.
• 23:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he has his own book now a white woman that is served by a white indigenous man is it Apache kid 53 or does it just Apache kid 53, but 52 was Reno Brown.
• 23:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy.
• 23:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't realize that they why would it so that upsets my OCD like the like it was Reno Brown and then it's Apache kid.
• 23:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It just runs not the Apache kid.
• 23:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no.
• 23:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Alan or alloyious is the Apache kid.
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Reno Brown is a white woman.
• 23:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so as always, so this time the writer on the book and the artist is Joe Manili, he's in his early 20s at the time, this guy helped create supercy of scandia the black night, he created the ringgo kid, Jimmy Wu and the yellow claw, who are both.
• 23:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: really problematic 1950 stereotypes.
• 23:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: The yellow club might be Marvel's most offensive character, or at least in the top.
• 23:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Manila was predicted to be as good as Jack Kirby.
• 23:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: He was a real up-and-commer, but he died in 1958 at the age of 32 in a train crash, a commuter train crashed.
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't wearing his glasses, and he fell between the cars with the train didn't crash.
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't wearing his glasses, and he fell between the cars of a train while it was moving, and he was on it.
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when they found his body, he was still clutching his art portfolio.
• 24:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: He had a wife and three daughters at home.
• 24:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So sad story.
• 24:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: On the cover of this book, our hero is back and his skin is red and he's surrounded by armed white men and the caption states the most mysterious hero in the West Indian or white man so better than devil better Well, they said a man or devil and then the next thing was is he a patchy or pioneer.
• 24:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe they met white man as the devil the whole time
• 24:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we are not going to review Apache Kid stories one at a time.
• 24:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, I want to treat them thematically, much like in the Lord of the Jungle Girls, like we'll toss out some examples, but we're going to just kind of throw some themes out.
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: One major theme in this is what I would call the theme of intersectionality, the idea that we have various labels that we live in, and we use this man is using certainly a lot of labels.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are some of the intersections you see in this character?
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Please, um, he is, um, he is raised native, he is an orphan, right, he is a white man, right?
• 25:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, he is kind of of both worlds and in those, he, yeah, I love that you bring up orphan.
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I do think that's a piece, but he also is, uh, a man with one home longing for another home.
• 25:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, like, he, he wants to have sympathy for the white community.
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: He grew up with out of family.
• 25:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, he's an outlaw, but also abides by the rules.
• 25:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he doesn't really fit in anywhere.
• 25:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the reality even did just people during this time, we've kind of already delved into.
• 25:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not, it's not great.
• 25:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the stories that we see about them, almost 100% will make sure that you have sympathy for the white man as they're telling the story.
• 26:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even if they say the white man's bad, they had no choice.
• 26:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, most white people are good.
• 26:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's always that.
• 26:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is very, well, it's to a specific audience.
• 26:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's the audience it's speaking to is the ancestors of roughly,
• 26:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: people who did settle these lands.
• 26:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So a theme a lot of a lot of these stories, as we briefly discussed, is the Apache kid trying to keep the peace between the races.
• 26:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have to let them everybody co-exist, like white people are here and native people are here.
• 26:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So why can't we all just be together?
• 26:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what you'll often see in these stories, even, is the natives have been put in one specific area, and there's like a fence dividing the spaces.
• 26:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And here's our spot, and here's your spot, and it doesn't work.
• 26:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, any thoughts?
• 26:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's exactly it, right?
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that like, you're an outlaw, you're breaking the rules, but the rules are what's exterminated your people, you know, like,
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: We also see a very frequent thing used here where a white person will paint themselves in red and then go after someone.
• 27:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or like they'll sneak into the tribe and like rape the woman or kill the person and then everyone's like, oh, I native did this bit, it was literally a white person.
• 27:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a weird, I've been talking on the show loosely a little bit.
• 27:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I grew up Mormon, there's a weird correlation between Westerns and Mormonism.
• 27:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church.
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a whole bunch that goes into the story.
• 27:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: He burned a printing press for reporting that he was a pedophile and then went to jail for that and then got out of jail and ran for president and then ordered the assassination of a former governor who did some really shitty things to Mormon people justifiably.
• 27:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Joseph Smith went back to jail.
• 27:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is Wild West of this shit.
• 27:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: A bunch of white man painted
• 27:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: and stormed the jail and opened fire on the jail and Joseph Smith was killed in this place in Missouri alongside his brother by a group of white men painted in a red face.
• 28:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's there's there's little pieces of history that fit into this trope, but it's Iki every time I see it at the comics here.
• 28:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean it's such an American thing like from our very founding the like the Boston Tea Party is white men dressed up as natives committing a crime and it's a crime that they think is righteous right there they're doing this thing that they think is righteous, but if they got caught the idea would be like, oh, it's just some some Indians out there.
• 28:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's the, for example, in Apache Kid 13, which is a future series.
• 28:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: The natives have signed a peace treaty with the whites, yet another white man poses his native because he doesn't want the treaty and convinces all the indigenous people to go to war.
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we see trends where like native people are like easily convinced, easily led astray.
• 28:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're like a little bit unintelligent.
• 28:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And just like, do we see that trope really frequently?
• 29:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's also, it's coming from a place of, we've already happened for some people, right, that there is this like narrative like, well, it's going to end this way and we're not telling a story about how that was bad.
• 29:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the people who live a way that's not like me sort of have to be the other and different and wrong sort of.
• 29:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's another trope we see here really uncomfortably if you read Apache kids comment you're going to see it over and over again.
• 29:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: the portrayal of Indigenous people, we take their family values and their religious beliefs and that we kind of bastardize them.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you see a lot of villages and wigwams and peace pipes and tribal dances and feathered headdresses and tomahawks and bows and arrows.
• 29:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're helpless unless they have guns and they've got the chiefs and medicine men and rain dances and they're subject to following their gods and they're easy to fool and everyone has a nature name,
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: or a white swan, who's the chief's daughter that will meet a little bit later.
• 30:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: These are uncomfortable because you see those tropes over and over and over again.
• 30:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: No matter who's working on them, and there's a really talented creator.
• 30:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Joe Maneli makes a kowsky, said shores, or any heart, Tom Gill, even weren't a rock who we know from our X-Men books a little bit.
• 30:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any thoughts on this?
• 30:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, we can go out a long tattoo.
• 30:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't want to go in another, like, hey, isn't it really shitty how settler violence is the number one cause of like fascism, like I don't want to do that.
• 30:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's true, it's generally a like a tool of the fascist.
• 30:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 30:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then one of the the most frequent characters we see in Apache could stories is his father figure Red Hawk, but he has to save Red Hawk every time.
• 30:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are some really important characters, primarily the indigenous woman white swan, who's very brave and bold, very tiger lily energy.
• 30:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: but sometimes she's also helpless and then in a few appearances she just wants the Apache kid so much.
• 31:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's such a beautiful man.
• 31:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: The kid learns about a white man doing something bad and then he'll switch to a locious care to get intel and then switch back and forth between his identity.
• 31:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes very quickly like during gun battles like the root juice washed it off put it back odd and in the end everybody's happy and it was all just a big misunderstanding.
• 31:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's every Apache kid's story is that basically.
• 31:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: The narrative hook is good.
• 31:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: The narrative hook that I am of two worlds and I use one identity to go find information to solve a mystery of who is committing these crimes.
• 31:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good narrative hook.
• 31:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like completely separate from some of the troubling like representation.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I get why the like if you're just reading it, you're like, oh, that, what a, what a fun adventure for the Apache kid.
• 31:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, let me run just a few stories across, but we've kind of covered the themes and these, and I don't know that we need to go super deep.
• 31:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: A patchy kid number seven, Flint Shearing is an outlaw trying to protect a gold mine he found by building a massive energy of a fire breathing Native American to scare everyone away.
• 32:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: red face animatronic the Apache kid exposes the villain in another adventure in the same story he didn't say miss you he ties up some natives so that some white settlers can get through the land without harm in a third story when a white man wants to wipe out red hawks tribe the Apache kid and white swan expose the man and then just beat the hell out of him a patchy kid 17 the
• 32:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: yellow wolf has convinced chief tall pine and his son great bear that white men are weak.
• 32:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so they go to war.
• 32:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: But meanwhile Apache the kid convinces young Billy Conquade not to be prejudiced against natives and also you still have the right to defend your family if a native's attacking you which leads to conquade fighting yellow wolf to show who's the strongest and tall pine agrees to peace between the races at the end.
• 32:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's just a couple of stories.
• 32:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Glad he solved that.
• 32:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: We solved racism.
• 33:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait until it's all fine.
• 33:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's all it took.
• 33:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: A patchy kid number nine.
• 33:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a fight with the criminal gang of Gunnar Simmons.
• 33:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: The tribe holds a powow and finds running moose guilty of crimes.
• 33:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: But a patchy kid steps in and wants to give running moose another chance.
• 33:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the next day running moose tries to betray the tribe again.
• 33:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in a series of defeats with it.
• 33:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Apache kid changing back and forth between identities, running moose is exposed and falls to his own death.
• 33:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Later, flaming wolf of the cohoes wants to unite the tribes and war against the white man, but Red Wolf wants peace.
• 33:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And excuse me, Red Hawk wants peace.
• 33:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Red Wolf is a different character.
• 33:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: The kid manipulates events selling the co-hosts.amunition as a loiscious care in order to give them ineffective rifles and then instigates attacks that allow the Apache to win the fight in the end.
• 33:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, we kept the peace.
• 33:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, peace is always the dissolution, but what it's so interesting to me is to see it's not that all of like rain dances or powows or any of these things are necessarily wrong for certain tribes it's that it's become one big mush.
• 34:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, there are just Indians.
• 34:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: They have all of these things.
• 34:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, the near-again set are the ones who do powwows.
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's Rhode Island.
• 34:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's pretty far away from where we're at.
• 34:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at the end of the day, it's just not a white person's story to tell.
• 34:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
• 34:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, absolutely.
• 34:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think a white person who had done maybe research was harder in the 50s for what is worth.
• 34:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: We always give Chris Claremont that same, like, sort of, not grace, but like, we're understanding that some things were harder to,
• 34:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you're right, it's not the white man's place to tell this story.
• 34:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just a couple more, we see in one issue the Apache kid defeats the evil and this name is amazing, boldlyster.
• 34:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: It just sounds like a hook-up site for gay people.
• 34:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like join boldly.
• 34:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, boldlyster is, it sounds exactly like...
• 35:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: He avoids the treachery of old toad, and he tames a wild black stallion named Nightwind.
• 35:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: In another tale, we see him fight a guy named Black Cougar, who killed a Cougar, and then wore its paws on his hands and feet in order to fight the Apache kid.
• 35:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just a white man with like Cougar paws and feet.
• 35:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: He gets framed for, he kills a bartender, who tries framing him for murder, or he, I don't
• 35:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's an issue.
• 35:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: In issue 10, we learn of a tribe that wants all sacrifice themselves to a fire God, but one of them survived and has been posing as the mouth of the fire God, idle in order to drive another native man to adopt the identity of red arrow and start attacking a white colony.
• 35:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: but Apache could expose as the truth and makes peace with Red Arrow.
• 35:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Same issue, Red Hawk's tribe is experiencing drought, and one nefarious member of mighty thunder convinces him that they must sacrifice either Red Hawk or White Swan in order to appease the gods and end the drought, but it reigns and they didn't have to sacrifice any one.
• 36:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: In 19 flying eagle works with the corrupt Jennings to try and cause a war between the whites and the natives,
• 36:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: hoping the government will allow the whites to take over all of the buffalo hunting grounds.
• 36:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: The kid intervenes and uses an artifact the flaming totem to settle affairs as it will only butt burn those who are unjust.
• 36:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean so this is just a sampling of the 50 stories.
• 36:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I did read the entire series.
• 36:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was wildly entertained for like five issues and then I was so sick of it.
• 36:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Which is very similar to my learn of the jungle girl experience at my modest.
• 36:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, I, I, there's part of me that is always really taken a back when these kinds of stories bring up how important Buffalo are to to Western native people because it was the explicit military strategy of the United States to.
• 36:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: eradicate buffalo to like to like star event and my guilty people.
• 37:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just such an interesting like yes, it is and there's almost like a like a naive attack that they would care so much about them, but it's like it's a food source guy.
• 37:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So like what are you talking to like and it's like using potatoes with Irish people a little bit in the very similar way where it's like
• 37:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is the source of a great famine that takes place that was explicitly exacerbated by imperialism.
• 37:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to highlight one more story, just in a little bit of detail, and then we're going to strip gears.
• 37:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's issue number five.
• 37:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's been a time of peace between the Apache and the white man, but longbow, the oldest among the tribe, reminds them quote.
• 37:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are there now old women who wear the noble feathers of the chiefs?
• 37:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do we turn the other cheek when slapped and thank those who slap us?
• 37:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: The white man has invaded our lands, he has driven us out of our homes, how can we live in peace with such as those?
• 38:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Redhawk replies, who's the chief, I bow to your age, oh long bow, but not to your logic, to continue to battle the white man as to invite suicide for our people.
• 38:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: they outnumber us and possess arms to sweep us off the face of the earth.
• 38:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I say live in peace, but let us continue to live and not do battle until our people exist no longer.
• 38:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: A white man then tries to instigate a war, a patchy kid exposes him, quote, The vigilante combine is tried for years to get hired by the government as a private army to handle Indian affairs.
• 38:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Its leaders are ruthless criminals who want to exploit the tribes under the
• 38:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: you came here to create this trouble to discredit the regular troops so you could convince Washington that they weren't capable of handling the job and to turn it over to the combine.
• 38:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we see a man trying to propagate vigilante justice, which is fucking ice these days, and so the white man gets killed with a whole bunch of arrows at the end.
• 39:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Dyes violently on the page and pieces restored and if I had to choose one Apache kid story from the whole run of 50s comics This is the one this is the one Tell me your thoughts even the conversation between Longbow and Redhawk at the beginning I think is very very insightful
• 39:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really interesting because neither, well, we can't know, right?
• 39:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: We can't know if one way is better than the other.
• 39:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there is this idea that, like, well, don't resist, just let it, like, sort of, let them come and be absorbed, be subsumed, sort of.
• 39:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I love how that, that story ends, especially because not only is it, like, it's a white man who's trying to, like, start a war.
• 39:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: The white man who's trying to, like,
• 39:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: take governmental power for like private corporations to start a war.
• 39:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very good villain for this story, especially.
• 39:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because there are many sides of how the West was won.
• 40:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: But privateization is really what ended up causing the need for this, or the desire for this sort of violence.
• 40:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, so fuck him up.
• 40:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hit him with another hundred arrows.
• 40:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So taglines will call at the Apache Kid the most mysterious warrior.
• 40:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Some things will call him like a half breed.
• 40:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: You see that type of stuff.
• 40:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I've covered enough of these types of stories.
• 40:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's cattle rustlers and there's people stealing cows and there's evil white men and there's like warring tribes of Native Americans and it's the out west stuff.
• 40:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, my mom grew up watching things like
• 40:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: and maverick and raw hide and all these shows and this is the stories that we were seeing over and over again in all the Clint Eastwood films
• 40:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, then we have modern retellings of these characters.
• 40:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Apache kid only meets the Tugan kid, I think one time, or no, he meets kid Colt one time, otherwise he's pretty much on his own.
• 41:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we have lots of modern stories, including the ones in the Avengers, where we just saw them go back in time and meet a bunch of cowboys.
• 41:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: We see a lot of modern retellings of these stories and we kind of latch on to these.
• 41:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: So on the show, we've been taking room for that as well.
• 41:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And Matt can attest to everybody when we were planning when I was planning this out I did a lot of talking or texting with Matt and I'm like we have to give like a native perspective if we're going to do this and so the Apache kid is the character I landed on but I really went around and around for a while.
• 41:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's there's a lot of bad answers certainly I think I think honestly what I what I hear from the older stuff and what I read in the newest stuff is there's a.
• 41:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a there's a there's a right headness to the intent that you can kind of see in the Apache kid that it it's it's trying is there is a sensitivity there is a set they're totally is a sensitivity yes the bad the what the bad white guys are bad white guys because of things that
• 42:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: exacerbate the genocide, right?
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is great.
• 42:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's great and correct and good art to make, I think.
• 42:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think in these later stories, I think what's interesting is could we follow Rose and we'll we'll later, but she, you were talking about the intersectionality, sort of adds a new layer to the intersectionality in a really cool way.
• 42:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let's jump to the modern retellings.
• 42:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Apache Kit has only been included in a few of these.
• 42:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, at the start of this month, everybody, you heard my interview with Marvel editor.
• 42:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, the name just flipped my brain.
• 42:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: You heard my interview with my interview, editor Mark Bernardo, about the incredible series of Blade of Glory, which is a really, really wonderful retelling of a lot of this stuff.
• 42:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: The raw-eyed kid monitoring telling is by Rod and Zimmerman, fuck that noise, there's some really funny shit, but there's some really awful shit.
• 42:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll get to that at the raw-eyed kid trial, but one that I think is really special actually, although not problem-free, is a patchy skies.
• 43:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to tell us about this one, Matt?
• 43:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, so patchy skies is by John Ostrander and Leonardo Monco.
• 43:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: John Ostrander this suicide squat guy, I think most of what he's most known for.
• 43:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it is first of all a beautiful looking book.
• 43:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's this got this like beautiful like painterly thing, but he tells the story of the death of the Apache kid.
• 43:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: and sort of a vigilante who is going around and trying to find the people who killed him.
• 43:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's this vigilante that we'll meet in a moment and the two gun kid.
• 43:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we learn, you're the end of this first issue, it's his bride, his wife, Rose.
• 43:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really, really sick.
• 43:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
• 43:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to like spoil this for people.
• 43:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: They should read it.
• 43:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: The unfortunate thing is, oh, it's This book is 30 years old.
• 44:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can spoil it.
• 44:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.
• 44:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 44:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: It will, I mean, it ends very, sort of, what's it called?
• 44:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Better sweet, but it is this, it's more like a modern Western in that way, right?
• 44:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's, it is a Clint Eastwood directed Western, not a Clint Eastwood starring.
• 44:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Western, you know, and it's and it's playing on gender concepts absolutely as we give the the female native woman, the indigenous woman is not at someone we see often represented as anything except helpless in our comics and movies very frequently.
• 44:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
• 44:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's incredibly weird to do that, considering many native tribes are native peoples are native, like, like, like, um, uh, lignages are given matriarchally, right?
• 44:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and how important they woman is to a lot of those cultures.
• 44:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the, you know, we're white culture is taking over, so it has to get even worse for this woman.
• 45:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, that interesting
• 45:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: the Apache kid has half white and half native that he is like, he was of a native woman and like his father was this native man and they're both killed and then like Redhark it's because it's all sort of how she's been told the story but we learned that she is also a mixed woman.
• 45:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: She is, she is.
• 45:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And her name is Rosa Care, so she's married to her.
• 45:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Rosa Care, yeah.
• 45:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's married out, I love she's care.
• 45:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the ego guys is a lot more delicious.
• 45:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think one of the evil guys is again in Richard Trask, which I'm gonna assume is the ancestor of Oliver.
• 45:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you, this is an X-Men podcast technically and the only X-Men thing in this is the Tras family.
• 45:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: We take narrative journeys.
• 45:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm allowed.
• 45:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you?
• 45:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying you're not allowed.
• 45:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is the Western month.
• 45:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: The art in this book is really beautiful and there does seem to be a certain amount of care of placing it in the correct spot in history.
• 46:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is, it's at this like near the end of the West sort of because it's after the Apache hit his lead, it's lived his life.
• 46:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, he's sort of is kind of the historical character too and the historical character Geronimo appears and is very important to this, which I think is good.
• 46:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like when there are many historical native characters who are important to like,
• 46:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: how the West ended, and I like when they get to be represented here.
• 46:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: How did you get there?
• 46:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Jerome will be a real historical figure, I think 80 years and died nearly 1900s, and was an Apache chief.
• 46:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this famous for many reasons, but he's kind of bastardized by Hollywood.
• 46:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: The name Jerome will alone has been, you know, ridiculously associated, like the name Pocahontas in a very different way.
• 46:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Geronimo, Poko Honis, Kimosabe, they're like a bunch of them that get used as, you know, like chief even is one of those like, they aren't slurs, but sometimes we'll see a white character in a book in the 80s call and native character, one of those things, and you're like, oh, that would be very, very racist now.
• 47:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Was it slightly less racist in the 80s?
• 47:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wolverine called Thunderbird dronimo does cause him dronimo and Danielle Moonstar has been called Pocohontis more than one time he's called Pocohontis a bunch and jump a Sam calls her chief as her nickname in the book
• 47:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: You just have to accept that maybe he hasn't put together that that's insensitive.
• 47:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's a cute thing.
• 47:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe like it's a thing between friends, but they're very, a thing you just do ever.
• 47:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
• 47:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're very close, and maybe we're seeing more of their dynamic, like that's her brother.
• 47:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I get it, but still.
• 47:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a Danny Moonstar theme that episode coming out in a few months.
• 47:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a Danny, specifically, but we get to talk a lot about.
• 47:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I sure.
• 47:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, do you have any more sure on Apache's case?
• 48:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I, I mean, I, this is one of the coolest things I've gotten to read on, uh, on, uh, very malkin lane, which is, uh, saying something.
• 48:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've liked a lot of what I've read here.
• 48:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: The, um, I love a revenge story.
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I love, um, the twist, just that, that pure, that page of her, I was his woman.
• 48:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she's got her gun up in there.
• 48:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's, there's something like exploitative about it, but in like the best, what, like a very John R. Stranger style, right?
• 48:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very like the suicide squad in that way.
• 48:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's pretty well done.
• 48:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, beautiful, well, well, we're three similar two blaze of glory.
• 48:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I really enjoyed this book.
• 48:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's very well done under the direction of Trump, Tom Breborek, everybody.
• 48:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this came out in 2002.
• 48:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we also have the Apache kid used in a more modern book, War of the Realms, Journey into Mystery.
• 48:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: War of the Realms is a Thor theme story, under Jason Aaron.
• 48:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: where all 10 realms from heaven to the frost giant, you know, jotenheim and hell and whatever.
• 49:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're all at war with each other and like Malikith is like the arbiter of all this and there's a bunch of evil shit happening and it's steam punk craziness.
• 49:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: This series is nuts.
• 49:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: this is crazy.
• 49:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had read it all before.
• 49:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I, one of the first things I did when I got back in the comics was Reed Jason Aaron's Thor and this is sort of the end of it in many ways.
• 49:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what I want to sort of point out is how often native people are tied to Asgard, like it happens a lot and that is sort of what's happening here and I have never gotten in.
• 49:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, Dan, who's a star becomes a bell creed?
• 49:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's a bell creed, and here in this, like, this, this like, as Guardian story, we're like, who's going to come back and save us?
• 49:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's Rosa.
• 50:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it is, I don't know why I've always struggled with the like thematicness of what who has guard a native people have to do with each other.
• 50:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the writers on this book are a group of like comedic podcasters, the Miguel Roy brothers.
• 50:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry.
• 50:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to, I, I love you.
• 50:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to stop you more than a native thing.
• 50:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to, you have to say this right.
• 50:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: We are on a podcast.
• 50:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're the biggest podcasters in the world.
• 50:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the macaroys.
• 50:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Macaroys.
• 50:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 50:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just, I'm so sorry.
• 50:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to like, they're, they're a company trio of brothers from West Virginia.
• 50:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: They run my brother, my brother,
• 50:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the artist by Andre Lima, Arajo, set up for everyone, War of the Realms.
• 50:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just the journey and the mystery of what War of the Realms is.
• 50:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're this title, I mean, yeah.
• 50:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in journey and chemistry, we're on the run as the world, like all of the realms are sort of smashing together because of Malice, the bad guy from the second form of he was how I understood him, but apparently he's a much darker scarier bad guy.
• 51:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: We follow Kate Bishop and Miles Morales, and some others.
• 51:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Fory a dog that has, that's as dark.
• 51:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I actually didn't understand that and I read the whole thing.
• 51:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think they made it very early.
• 51:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so Kieran Gillen has a 25-ish you arc in Journey Into Mystery about Loki as a little boy.
• 51:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's excellent.
• 51:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the characters that's featured in that book is Fory, who is a talking hell wolf, who just swears and wants to rend flesh all the time.
• 51:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love Fory.
• 51:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Did Loki name the dog after his brother?
• 51:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, oh, why didn't see, uh, do, do, do, do, do, do.
• 51:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it's the child of Garmin, a hell wolf.
• 52:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember how he got his name.
• 52:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't remember.
• 52:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 52:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but there, um, there's this baby that they're trying to, um, so the cast here is Kate Bishop, Wonderman, Miles Morales.
• 52:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Wonderman.
• 52:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Seth Lockett, uh, who's a fun character, Thorie Balder the Brave, and then Druid from the, uh, from the Jonathan Hickman, um, Secret Warriors book, like,
• 52:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: which sort of makes the, the, the Azgardianness a little weird because he's a great, I know he's like a super villain in Marvel.
• 52:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: But he, he is also a super villain in Marvel, who's a great god, who wears like a potnisher skull.
• 52:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: He looks like like such a doof as sometimes.
• 52:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I don't know.
• 52:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't love Marvel, Eris.
• 52:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And Odin and Freya have recently had a new daughter who they're in Lausa, who's a key here.
• 52:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a baby heir to Azgard, Thor's little sister.
• 53:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Aries is trying to get it for Maliketh and everybody else is trying to stop him from getting it and they get to a Western town and all of the sort of like the Marvel Western characters sort of appear as some of some of his ghosts are I guess all his ghosts it was yeah I told you I struggled with this.
• 53:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, yeah, you're doing just fine.
• 53:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the, yeah, there's a giant war, they're running across the realms and when they get to a particular realm, we see the Marvel Western characters show up.
• 53:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we have ghosts and like spirits, it's like a realm of the undead.
• 53:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Phantom Riders here, Reno Jones, Kid Cassidy, Rahide Kid, a guy named the steam rider, Elegila, heart-like fire, Hizuro and Guri, who, these are all like Marvel properties.
• 53:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we get the Apache Kid here as well as a ghost.
• 54:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's Rosa, it's the Rosa.
• 54:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Rosa, yes, she's the last one to be there.
• 54:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she is sort of, um,
• 54:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: She she's kind of like ghost writer reeness that she didn't have before like it's like flaming I don't know where I'm dead.
• 54:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: We can do what we like.
• 54:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: She just she's yeah ghosts can just do whatever they want and and marvel
• 54:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they're running across the realms.
• 54:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're fighting all these things.
• 54:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this becomes a property or land that they deposit themselves in during this big adventure.
• 54:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: The heroes group is affectionately called the babysitter's club through all of this.
• 54:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: We end up at Henschfest at a certain point, which is like the Comic Con for Supervillins.
• 54:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a fun kind of rampant space.
• 54:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's fun to see the Marvel Western Heroes here when they pop it, you know?
• 54:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: thrown to the ground because Wonderman's in his like he's a pacifist that's part of his like new part of his character at the time and he is thrown by areas and he's like what can a pacifist do to the god of war and we we find out he's already hand at the baby off.
• 55:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a it's a really great little moment.
• 55:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, this is just rampant, like, beaten shit up across the realm stuff and a lot of the war of the realms, uh, out, right, go read War of the Realms Punisher, uh, strike force is fun.
• 55:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, there's some really talented writers doing crazy things.
• 55:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even the war scrolls book is pretty fun.
• 55:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's even an uncanny X-Men war of the realm series.
• 55:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's Spider-Man and the League of Realms.
• 55:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's new agents of Atlas.
• 55:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this was like a whole spin-off where all these characters are running around.
• 55:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Juggernaut gets some really glorious moments during this.
• 55:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good time.
• 55:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you've never seen four writers get credited as one person.
• 55:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: No.
• 55:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're just credited as the mathle drawings.
• 55:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's like four of them, I think.
• 55:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the brothers and their dad.
• 55:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any thoughts on their concluding thoughts on the war of the realm stuff?
• 56:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: We also see a bunch of the old Marvel Western supervillains show up.
• 56:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to hear us talk about this in the raw-hide kid trial, but like, raw-hide kid comics, for example, were running concurrently with the original spider-man comics.
• 56:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're very similar.
• 56:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Raw-hide kid is in the old west, but he's just fighting like a supervillain of the month each month.
• 56:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're kind of alarmingly a lot like Spider-Man'sville and sometimes I think the one that's kind of become the most enduring is like a guy that's called the Iron Mask.
• 56:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's like a cyborg guy and we bring him back in comics once in a while as this old Westville and in time travels on occasion.
• 56:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you forming a thought?
• 56:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was I the I like I said at the beginning I have very little taste for like I'm like kind of bored a little bit by by Westernness when it shows up, especially when it shows up and I wasn't expecting it.
• 56:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's it's really interesting where the rums is like this cataclysm of every part of the Marvel Universe sort of smashing together in this like spin off by new
• 57:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: we're like, this is the second appearance of Rosa.
• 57:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Rosa's such a cool character and a fatgie's guys.
• 57:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she's cool here, but she's like, she's going to come here.
• 57:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: But wait, it took me a minute to do some of this.
• 57:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: You said she had go straight her powers.
• 57:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's actually not her.
• 57:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's Kushla, the spirit writer.
• 57:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, man.
• 57:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's going to be briefly in this series.
• 57:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: OK, she does only show up briefly then.
• 57:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been very good.
• 57:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Kushla is a very, is worthy of a big conversation as well.
• 57:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even fans of like, um,
• 57:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: the what if series on Disney Plus like it could be.
• 57:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have characters.
• 57:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I now see where Rose actually is and this is in bear.
• 57:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I for whatever reason.
• 57:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I because Rose is.
• 57:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's an easy mistake to name.
• 57:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 57:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Rosa has sort of a white person name, so I thought that they were just giving her a native name in that moment.
• 58:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as crazy as it is to say, we don't often get to indigenous women in the same comic book.
• 58:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
• 58:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 58:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like you might get echo and Kushla, like, but that's kind of it or Danny Moonstar, like one of the others.
• 58:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, so fun, fun, romp.
• 58:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is an example of how we use these old properties in really fun and almost self-indulgent ways sometimes.
• 58:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the Apache kid, I'm always grateful to friends and Matt, I like to say this anytime I make this kind of request.
• 58:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: You are much more than your identity.
• 58:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are much more than intersectionality.
• 58:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I always want to make sure I have the right represented voices for the right conversations.
• 58:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And for the Apache kid, I definitely needed a friend who has the sensitivity needed, but also someone that I feel comfortable enough with, just to like, let's have fun, but also talk about the fucking problem.
• 58:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: 100% note this I wouldn't want you to have this conversation with just another white guy honestly like to be the I'm much rather be here than that and you've had me on to like, you know, you know, you know We talk about all kinds of adventures 1954 or you're the voice of iron man And we got we got Sabre to the plans.
• 59:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm much I much more prefer to be the voice of Hyperion
• 59:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I consider doing the trial of Hyperion later this year, but it's not gonna fit in the aircraft, but that'd be a fun film, it's a fun film.
• 59:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, we'll maybe, we'll see.
• 59:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me see, I'll someday.
• 59:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'd rather do Gladiator than Hyperion, I feel like it's cool.
• 59:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: One's cooler than the other.
• 59:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very cool.
• 59:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: One research though.
• 59:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any concluding thoughts, my friend?
• 59:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: um, I would love to see Rosa more.
• 59:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that she could be, we could do another, uh, another theories with her.
• 59:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: That said, Apache skies is a very like tight little story and kind of does wrap it up.
• 59:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just that there's maybe a story of her and her husband, uh, having done adventures together.
• 59:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 59:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Something before that story would be kind of cool to find her.
• 59:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the Apache kid himself,
• 59:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't know why we would go back to him other than two sort of like baby three thousand things more sensitively, but I would really want native writers on that.
• 1:00:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, it's the only thing that we want.
• 1:00:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would want to patchy writers on that.
• 1:00:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are patchy writers certainly who could do it.
• 1:00:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So hook marshala rock well on that story.
• 1:00:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, like there's so many, so many places that could go.
• 1:00:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that these characters are interesting.
• 1:00:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Two gun kid is the one from this era.
• 1:00:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: We see the most raw hide kid kind of the secondary.
• 1:00:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk in the raw hide kid trial.
• 1:00:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: You and I it just a few weeks when we record again.
• 1:00:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so glad you're coming back for that one.
• 1:00:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for being willing to do homework and take nerdy journeys with me, my friend.
• 1:00:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love hanging out with you.
• 1:00:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: This was fun.
• 1:00:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I always love being on a very mock-and-line.
• 1:00:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, maybe I should pitch in Apache Kid vs. Lorna the Jungle Girl comic book for Marvel.
• 1:00:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's fun.
• 1:00:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's fun.
• 1:00:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to do that.
• 1:00:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: You should definitely be the one to write that, sorry, no.
• 1:00:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my, my little priestess versus nope.
• 1:00:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: look if she kills her and it's real brutal, I could be into it.
• 1:00:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can find me happy with it.
• 1:00:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they end up together.
• 1:01:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or that, yeah, that's also good.
• 1:01:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fine with that.
• 1:01:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Rosa changes her.
• 1:01:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Her gay boyfriend would be so upset.
• 1:01:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I gave my friend would be really upset, you're right.
• 1:01:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, everybody, hey, take care of yourselves.
• 1:01:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for your support this month.
• 1:01:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Next month on the show in May, we are delving into femininity.
• 1:01:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do some second wave feminism conversations.
• 1:01:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've got some wild content on the main show, but the theme on the Patreon next month is under the category of the only girl on the team.
• 1:01:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: So our initial episode will be about the vapor from the UFOs.
• 1:01:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be covering Ruby Thursday, tattoo from the kiddo mega's gang.
• 1:01:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And away forgot the fourth one, it's not in my brain at this moment.
• 1:01:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So stay tuned, we're going to have a great time.
• 1:01:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we got the trial of Janet Van Dyne to end the month out.
• 1:01:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's one of my all-time favorite characters.
• 1:01:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Love, love, love, love, Janet Van Dyne.
• 1:01:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: uh... where can people find you my friend grandma can underscore land on instagram for me uh... it would be plenty of anything you want to play uh... we're escape the muzbers on instagram uh... if you are listening to this right now um... chad was just on my show escape the muzbers uh... he got pranks it was not escape the muzbers he was on absolute muzbers we did dc stuff i love when people invited their house back yeah yeah
• 1:02:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that's yeah, you can find the other and then Matt also has been participating in what we've been calling the the Western themed month like we're they're I'll put together a whole little like cross-puck.
• 1:02:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I cross-puck.
• 1:02:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're doing Thank you.
• 1:02:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the Marty Marvel Western crossover and I'll go around and skip the modulus right now You can listen to us talk red wolf another book.
• 1:02:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had to download on to my computer because they won't put these really offensive books on Marjol on Monday
• 1:02:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Red Wolf was a fascinating contemporary of Thunderbird in that they were veterans.
• 1:02:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: They both have trouble insignias.
• 1:02:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I like Red Wolf actually.
• 1:02:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 1:02:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like it a lot actually.
• 1:02:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's I've got a Red Wolf.
• 1:02:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a Red Wolf piece on my wall.
• 1:02:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll show you in a second.
• 1:03:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's the one you should bring back.
• 1:03:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: He could be in things I think.
• 1:03:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like right now.
• 1:03:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: He never left.
• 1:03:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:03:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:03:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks everybody for listening that to Alison.
• 1:03:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, love you both.
• 1:03:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see you all back here next time.
• 1:03:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Bye.