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Season 1_ Sidebar 8(M4A_128K) · NO FILTER

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to this week's Sidebar, discussing episode ten
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: of our series on the Case of Caine's Story and
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Lee Clark. I'm here with your sind and Kevin, who
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: are checking in from California.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Hey guys, Hey Susan, Hey Susan.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: So this week we have some disappointing news. Start off with,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: we found out that the Attorney General's office in Georgia
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: has decided to appeal in the Joey Watkins case. Now
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Joey Watkins, it's another Floyd County case we covered in
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: season two of un Disclosed, and he had a hearing
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: earlier this year and the judge ruled in his favor,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: overturning his conviction. So we were waiting to see what
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: the state did. The state could have chosen to do nothing,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: which case joe would have gone back to Floyd County
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and you have to then decided to do or the
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: age could Attorney General could have to appeal it to
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: sport to Georgia, and that is ultimately what they have
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: now decided to do. So we are disappointed, primarily because
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: of the time lost. Joey's claims are very strong legally,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: I'm honestly a little surprised they appealed. In most cases
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: you can assume that they're going to but this one
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: they just have such pen legal grounds that I'd managed
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: to convince myself they might not do it, but they have.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: So we're now waiting probably six months, hopefully not too
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: much longer, definitely end of the year before Supreme Court
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: of Georgia can rule on it, and we find out
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: if they uphold the trial court's ruling and keep this
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: conviction or returned, or if somehow they decide to overturn
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: it and reinstate's conviction.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Now does the Supreme Court have to tell you what
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: points are looking at or the basis of them looking
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: at it?
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Right now, all we know is that there's a notice
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: of appeal filed by the state. We don't actually know
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: what they're appealing on exactly. The thing is, Joey won
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: on three different grounds, and the state would have to
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: win on all three in order for his conviction we returned,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: So they'll have to target all three of them and
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: have to win on all three of them. If they
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: don't run the board, then Joey still wins.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting. So even if they won on one conviction.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Not the other two, it would still be an overturn.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: It would any one of them standing alone is sufficient.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: And he just, especially on this one claim in particular,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: that his legal arguments are just so solid that it'll
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: be interesting to see. I'm glad I'm not writing that brief.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I'll put it that way, because I don't know what
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: you'd write in the trial court briefs after the hearing.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: The state's argument was that there was no evidence that
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: the jurors had discussed the drive test. One juror did,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: but then they have to recite the facts and mention
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: that their own witness that they call to the stand
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: was like, oh yeah, I remember the drive test being discussed.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: I still recall as a man or a woman. And
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: so making the argument that it didn't happen when their
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: own witness as it did, it's going to be a
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: hard cell.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: What's the timeframe for Joey and this whole process.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Optimistically I would hope for ruling by like November, but
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: you know, the law being what it is, horrendously slow,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: it could push it to early twenty twenty three.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Was there a deadline for them to file the paperwork?
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Seeing this today Thursday, the eleventh, wasn't the deadline and
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: they filed last week.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Could they have just filed it because they needed more time?
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Could they take.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Back It's not a very common thing that happens, but
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: theoretically they could withdraw their appeal.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Well, it's all very interesting. Have you spoken to Joey?
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: How is he doing? I have.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: He's disappointed. He had his hopes up a lot because
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: you can almost always assume the state will appeal like
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: maketion me overturned. But he really was thinking, because we
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: were all really thinking that they might not. So it
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: was kind of a blow to go from having a
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: bond hearing scheduled for next week to now knowing that
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: he's still stuck there for six months more at least.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: But again, after we get out of Supreme Court, he
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: goes to Floyd County and it's up to Floyd County
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: to decide what to do. They can choose to either
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: let them go or to put him on trial again.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Once she had a conviction in place, it's all but
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: impossible to get overturned, and it takes years, if not
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: a decade, to get there.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: It's a long process.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: But in this week's episode, we heard about a defense's
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: case at trial that was put on for both Lee
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: Clark and Kane's story. Now, the fact that Lee and
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Kin were tried together was probably the whole ballgame for Lee.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: What's interesting in the Joy Watkins case is that there
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: were true defendants. Joey and his friend Mark were both charged.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: The theory was that like Mark was somehow in the
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: car with Joey when the shootings pposedly occurred, even though
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: there's no evidence that he was actually there. Sounds familiar,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: But in that case, Joey and his co defendent Mark
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: were got their trials severed, so they were not tried together.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: They each have their own trial and Mark was acquitted.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: The jury found him not guilty, so he went home.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: In this case, the motion for severance was denied me
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: and came tried together and absent that. I just can't
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: even imagine a conviction here for Lee, given the amount
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: of evidence they had against him was so minimal.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's the whole concept of the conspiracy, right.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: You keep these guys together because they're in a conspiracy.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: Is that why it wasn't separating in your mind?
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: It's same for Joy Watkins that was a conspiracy between
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: him and Mark. Again, they also made that one a
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: gang case. They claimed that murder was because of a
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: gang of three people with no name. Again, a nameless
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: gang did it despite again no evidence. But here I
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: don't know why the worlding was different. I haven't seen
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: the judges rolling on it. But the judge found that
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: balancing the factors they look at, there was no reason
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: to give Lee and Kane separate trials. We heard about
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Lee's defense, which in terms of his case in chief
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: where he gets to call witnesses to the stand, it
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: was very brief. He called doctor Harvey Howell who said
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: that this is a contact wound based on his and
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: alsis the photographs, and then they called two witnesses to
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: talk about Lee's alibi from that night. To me, there's
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: no real reason to doubt where Lee was that evening
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: because there were probably ten people and all who saw
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: him at his apartment at like a gathering there having drinking,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: being stupid. Apparently someone lit some golden grain on fire
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: and almost let a table on fire, I've been told.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: And this night sticks out, and there was memory because
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: the next morning they find out that Brian was killed.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: So there's no reason to doubt that Lee was there
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: at some point that night. The problem was putting a
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: time on it and thinking exactly when has occurred, because
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: no one involved is really paying attention all that much
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: to clocks.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Well, and we also know no one disputes I mean,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Lee admits it, Jamie admits it, and Kine that the
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: three of them were together and driving around and they
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: dropped Caine off at the Silver Creek Mini Mart and
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Caine says from there he walked, you know, behind the
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Mini martin up up to where Brian lived, so you know,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Jamie and Lee would have been on their way back
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: to Lee's apartment.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know exactly how long it would have
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: taken between when Cain was dropped off at Mini mart
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: and when Brian was ultimately shot, but it wouldn't have
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: been terribly long, we don't think from what we know,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: so it's hard to say.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: It's always stood out to me that no one interviewed Jamie,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: who was in the car, who would have been Lee's
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: alibi witness. I know in the episode we talked about
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: how he maybe isn't the greatest alibi witness because his
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: brother and could say whatever, But to not even interview
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: him seems like a.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Mistake, especially since one part of the case that we're
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: not going to cover the show because it didn't go anywhere,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: is there was a sort of troubled teen girl with
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: a history of making false accusations against people who made
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: a statement. In this case, she talked to Dallas Mattel
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: and David Stewart and it was recorded and she described
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: in detail how Jamie was part of the murder conspiracy
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: and they had planned to kill Brian because of this
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: k marking thing and like violating the gang rules and
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: all that. And she's not used a trial because it's
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: very apparent that her story can't be true because she
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: says that this thing occurs. She has a very firm date.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: She's like, me and Jamie were on a date at
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: the CUSA Fair when he told me about how they
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: killed Brian, and the KUSA Fair was like two weeks
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: before Brian's death. So they ultimately don't go there with
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: that witness. They don't call her, they don't They kind
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: of just like let it go. But they had that statement,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: so you think they want to talk to Jamie to
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: like find out more about his alleged involvement in.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: It and Lee. They never really interviewed Lee either, right.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Well, they did so, they did try to interview Lee,
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: and Lee was like, I'm not talking to you, which
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: is the right answer everyone out there. If you're ever
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: brought into the police station and the officer wants to
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: talk to you about like something that you're being expected of,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: do it, leaded, don't talk. But Jamie's like, he's said,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I would have talked. I don't know why it didn't
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: come to me. They never never tried though. We also
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: heard this week about the witnesses called by the defense
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: for Cane's story, which included Caprice. Now, she was called
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: by the prosecution as well. The prosecution puts her on
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: the stand to talk to her about stuff. She cries
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: the whole time. She denies being involved, obviously and says
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: it didn't happen. But the questions they ask her paid
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: the picture for the jury that she's part of his
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: conspiracy for some reason that's never explained. The prosecutor even
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: says an opening, He's like, now, Caprice was part of
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: the conspiracy. Can I tell you why?
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: No?
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: I cannot, But she was so yeah, He's like, why
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: would she do this? Who knows, but she did. That's
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: not direct quote, but it's very close to direct. He
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: actually was very blatantly about, like open about the fact
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: that he cannot explain for the life of him, why
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: this teenage girl would help conspire to kill her boyfriend.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: But we also heard something interesting from Caprice that kind
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: of struck me, which is that when we talked to her,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: she assumed she thought that Cain and Lee were guilty,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: which I kind of hadn't expected. I think going into it, I.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Remember her feeling like Lee was behind it all. She
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: seemed a little more sympathetic towards Kane.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure it was part of it, but she
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: thought that he was involved with it all. But she
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: was like, yeah, so Lee was outside the window, right,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: And we're like, where do you hear that. She's like,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I assumed, well, Dallas Battle, I'm pretty sure he told me.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: So she has a story in her mind of what
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: happened that Dallas Battle most likely told her about how
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Lee shot Brian through a window, and she never really
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: questioned that despite the fact that she knew she was
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: also accused of being conspirator and that she knows as
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: she heard Brian Stay on the phone. He was playing
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Russian Roulette. She has she heard all those years ago
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: what Dallas Battle told her, and she's never really doubted
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: that part of it.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was surprised when she told us that as well.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Even though she was being accused of being part of
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: the conspiracy, she still believed what she was being told
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: by the investigators.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: About Lee being seen there at the scene.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: We also heard her reaction to seeing Lee in the courtroom,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: and that was definitely not the only witness we've talked
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: to who remembers describing He remembers Lee being having resting
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: bitch face throughout the proceedings. We're having like an angry,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: stern look on his face much of the time.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. People talked about that a lot, and I always
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: thought of, you know, it's interesting that people interpreted that
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: as guilt or lack of remorse or whatever versus just
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: being like an angry seventeen eighteen year old because you're
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: being tried for a murder that you know, you say
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: you didn't commit.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: But that stuff matters, right, like people's perceptions matter when
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: you're dealing in a trial and a case.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: It does. But also when I see photos of them.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Part of me just doesn't understand it because the perception
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: to me, how do you look at those two boys
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: and think, oh, yeah, these are hard and gang murderers.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: They look way younger than seventeen. Lee's was a really
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: small guy. I can't's tall as like six two six three,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: but he's like stick then, and Lee's kind of a
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: small guy, and they have baby faces to me, and
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: there's nothing about them that would match this narrative being spun.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: But you know them and you know the story, right, Yeah.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: But even before I knew it, like I saw those
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: of him, I was like, really, these are the gang
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: members here. So after the conviction, Lee actually kept his
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: attorney for the post the next legal proceedings, the next
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: phase of it. He made the same attorney for the appeal.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: He also had the same attorney for the motion for
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: a new trial that was filed directly after the conviction,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: and the judge that oversaw the case ruled in the motion.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: And what I thought was interesting and the judge's ruling
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: denying the motion for a new trial, he wrote the
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: following about why Lee and Kine were convicted. The evidence
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: shows that Story and Clark were members of a gang
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: called the Free Birds, and that a short time before
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: the shooting, Story, Clark, Bowling, and another young man committed
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: the offense of burglarizing the home of Story's parents. A
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: safelong and his Story's father was stolen, and during the investigation,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: David Stewart interviewed Bowling and he gave the police officer
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: information which resulted in the arrest of Story and Clark. Now,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: if the judge sitting there through this trial drew that
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: conclusion about the Evans presenta you know, the jury didn't
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: have a hope because that is blatantly false. Brian Bowling
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: was not part of the safe robbery, even though the
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: judge came away thinking that. And by the time any
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: allegation is made that Brian ever talked to anyone in
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: law enforcement, all four boys involved in safe theft had
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: already been arrested and charged. There's no evidence that there
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: was any information from Brian that would have helped in
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: the case at all. And also they didn't need it
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: because they had confessions from the people involved, and they
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: also had Debbie Kelly, who saw the car pull up
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: to the Story's place that day. So Brian was like
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Brian really couldn't have helped make a case against them,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: and again, not part of the safe robbery. And yet
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: that's what the judge dot happen. After watching over the trial.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Do you think the defense attorneys thought the same thing.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: I wonder. It does seem like no one really knew
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: what was going on. They do eventually at one point
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: the prosecutor figures out the mistake and he's like, oh, yeah,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Brian wasn't part of the safe theft. That's why he
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: was so valuable as a witness, because it's opening statements
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: like Brian was a crucial witness because he was part
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: of the conspiracy and who's going to testify against Lin Kaine,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: And his closing is like Brian was a crucial witness
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: because he had nothing to do with a safe robbery
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: and therefore he was an independent witness and that's why
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: he was so crucial. So I guess it's heads state wins, tails,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: defense loses.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: But the judge, I mean, if that's in the prosecutor's
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: closing argument and for the judge to still make the mistake,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: does that seem like somebody wasn't paying attention.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, certainly there was a lack of attention paid by
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: a lot of parties to this case. We also talked
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: about Debbie Kelly again, the witness who lived next door
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: to the stories. She's also a cousin to the stories.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: But Debbie Kelly, she's crucial to the case because this
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: whole theory about Knarker's having to die that comes from her.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: It doesn't come from anyone else. But trying to interview
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: her was really a struggle because she was just an
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: extremely leavable witness, and that happens, you know, pretty often,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: But with her, I found myself struggling to formulate questions
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: because anytime I said anything, she would adopt it into
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: her answers, and it was making it difficult to get
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: new information from her.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: New information and to confirm old statements as well.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, anything we asked her she would basically adopt or
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: spin off into a new answer.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: Is it just an overwhelming desire to please or to
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: feel important? She keeps changing her story based on the
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: question of the information providing it.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: I think part of it, for sure was just the
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: natural tendency of any witness hearing about an old case.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: When you have like fragments of memories, you're trying to
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: piece together. That'll happen with anyone, but it was just
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: especially pronounced in heart with her. I remember one time
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I misspoke asking a question and I said Brian when
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I meant to say Cain, And instead of her telling
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: me the story about Cain that I was trying to
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: get from her, she tells a new story involving the
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: same facts. So why this time it involves Brian.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was an interesting exchange with her that they
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: would say that.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: She also told us about how.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: There's something about yes.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Apparently at some point back in when this is happening,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: in ninety seven or ninety eight, she came home and
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: found bird feathers on her like entryway, and she called
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Battle and Stuart and they had to come like offer
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: protection shirt because she was convinced that it was the
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Freebird's Gang leaving a calling card.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: She's an interesting interview, that's for sure.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And we also heard from the other witness who
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: saw the notebook, Nancy Williams, who told us she didn't
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: remember testifying at the trial, which sounds unbelievable when you
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: hear that, but I will say I have encountered that
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: way more than I ever would have expected in working
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: on old cases. It doesn't happen all the time, but like,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: semi frequently I will speak to someone who testified to trial, like,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: you know, twenty twenty five years ago, and they will
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: just flat out insist they didn't testify, And when they
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: see their testimony, they're shocked because yes they did, but
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: they've literally forgotten it. So it can and does happen.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: It just seems so impossible to sort of understand that.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, if one is an expert witness, you can
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: understand that they may not be never testifying because they
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: do it all the time. But presumably she's never testified
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: in another court case in her life.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: You know, we didn't ask her that, But I have
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: spoken to witnesses who tell me, like, when I asked them,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, that's impossible, because I've never testified in
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: any case ever. So I'm less skeptical now having heard
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: it several times from people who I'm confident aren't lying
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: to me. Even though the first time I encountered I
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: remember being just like blown away. I'm like, how could
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: you possibly not remember testifying? I didn't believe the witness,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: And then later on I came to realize, like, it's
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: probably true. He probably just forgot because it wasn't a
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: big deal to him, you know. I think it's also
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: possibly an indication that, like what they're talking about at
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: trial was not something that important to them, or in
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: any event, it didn't leave a memory because outside of
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: the testimony I gave, it didn't really create an impact
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: in the long term memories, which could be the case
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: for Nancy Williams, because her memory now this gang rule Book,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: it was very much tamer than it was when she
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: was testifying a trial.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Right when we talked to her, she described it more
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: as just like kids being kids kind of thing and
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: not really anything scary or anything that she saw and
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: was afraid of.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and her kids were like, oh yeah, if mom
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: was cleaning a house and saw something kind of interesting
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: like that, you'd totally go through it. And Caine says
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: that it was just a song notebook. I think he
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: told me that, like the actual title of it was
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Songs and shit, like like literally that was like written
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: on it with the skull and crossbones.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: He remembered some of the names of the songs even.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: He reade quite a few. I took some of them
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: out but like he was like telling me about like
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: some of the love songs he wrote, Like, wow, that's
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: so in my head, I was imagining that, like maybe
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: the song book was like full of like violent rap
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: lyrics talking about drug use or something. But from everything
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I've heard from both Cain and others, it wasn't like that.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Like it was just some like you know, you know,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: run rock, but nothing in the lyrics themselves. It would
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: cause that kind of reaction from Debbie Kelly or Nancy Williams.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: So the big mystery is what happened to this book.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: We know it existed in some form because Kine says,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: yes he had a book, a notebook of lyrics, but
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: where is it? What happened to it?
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: We just don't know. Ideally, I wish the stories would
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: have been able to find it and have it. Then again,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: it was seven months after the shooting that there's any
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: indication that the notebook's important, and we don't know when
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: the defense finds out it probably was not even until
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: much later on. So by the time Cain's reason to
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: know that the notebook matters probably at least a year,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: So it's maybe he just misplaced it got a new one.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Lost it.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Who knows there was never a warrant to search his
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: house to look for it or anything like that.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: No, there was not, because they thought it was in
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: the casket, so that's where they want to look for it.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: It's this mythical piece of evidence that nobody but these
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: other two that have ever really seen, right yep. And
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: it's used as this sort of this big thing about
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: this conspiracy, but it's never been produced.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: And as we heard an episode, the jury should never
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: have heard about it because it was hearsay and it
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: was not amissable und or any exceptions that they could
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: have used, like it shouldn't have been part of this
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: case in the first place.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Does that mean if there was ever a new trial
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: because the judge made the Supreme Court I believe, made
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: that ruling that the rule book would not be allowed
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: to be evidenced in a new trial.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: It'd be up to the trial court to rule on
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: it again, but likely not given the Supreme Courts ruling
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: on it before.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: And it becomes even more difficult to prove a conspiracy
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: if you don't have this mythical.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Rule book, or if you don't have battles here say
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: testiment about what Charlie's Posley saw right. We also heard
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: about the testimony that Caine gave at his own trial
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: and how that negatively affected Lee Clark's defense as well.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's the one thing that points towards people
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: thinking he was guilty, right, Like, he's looking for who
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: the narc is and you can place him at the
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: mini mart two.
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: Hundred yards from the house, And that's the one thing
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: that stands out as people conceivably thinking that Lee could
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: be involved because you can placement proximity and he's already
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: upset that he's looking for an arc.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: So that's the smoking gun that the prosecution is trying
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: to present, right.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: It seems like this is what actually started the investigation
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: into Lee Clark. Why Lee and not someone else when
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: there were supposedly other freebirds, supposedly other people who would
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: theoretically have an equal motive to do this based on
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: the state's theory of the case, Like, why do they
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: focus on Lee? And it's because they've talked to Kane
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: very early on and Cain tells them what he did
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: that day, so they know he's with Lee Clark.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: One of the things that stood out for me about
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: this episode is Lee's father, Blenn, and I think it
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: becomes clear to the audience how difficult this whole process
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: has been for him. And on the show we keep
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: looking at the evidence and compelling evidence. I think that
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: the emotion and the damage that we can hear sort
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: of done to him in this episode really stood out
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: for me. I mean, I remember when Just send it
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: and I shot that interview, and I believe it was
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: March of twenty twenty one, and seeing how much this
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: story had what had happened, had sort of changed his life.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Sitting there doing the interview was very profound, and then
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: it brought back a lot of memories for me of
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: watching him go through that explaining to us and we
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: were speaking to him as Lee called him. It was
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: pretty It was a pretty intense moment.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: For twenty five years, he's been Lee's prior marry contact
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: with outside world, and he's wanted to get his son help,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: but he just did not know what or how to
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: do it. He doesn't have the money to hire attorneys
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: and fight it to the end. He doesn't know where
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: to turn, and he wants to help his son, but
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: he just literally doesn't know how to do it.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and in talking to us, I think hep you
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: this as an opportunity to finally get Lee's story out
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: to the world, which is what he'd been looking for
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: and what he told us he'd been praying for.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: We had a lot of great listener comments and questions
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: this week. We had one from at Martin Turr on
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Twitter who said, one glaring problem I have with the
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: state theory is that if the murder was the plan,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: why wouldn't they both Can and Lee have gone through
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: the plywood bedroom window. It was come and practice among
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: his friends and would have avoided all witnesses. Just one
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: more thing that makes no sense with a theory, and
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: in short, yes, to me, it's a simple thing, but
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: also it's such a fundamentally hard thing to understand about
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: the state's case, like why have Kin go through the
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: front door, why have Kane put on a scene like that,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: and why does Kan agree to be the one who
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: goes in the front door it is visibly known to
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: be with the victim, whereas Lee is able to theoretically
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: get with no one's saying there at all, when they
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: both just could have gone through the window they wanted to.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking about this the other night
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: actually about why did Kane go through the front door
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: when everyone says, you know, normally he would just go
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: through the back window. And it made sense to me
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: because if he's walking from the mini mart, he's walking
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: towards the house and he's going to come to the
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: front door first. If he's coming from his home, he
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: would be coming towards the back of Brian's trailer, where
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: it makes more sense to come through the window. The
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Bowling family, you know, they remember it being odd that
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: he came through the front door, but because of the
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: direction he was coming, I don't think it it was odd.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: But also like he was comfortable with the Bowling family,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: like he would live with them for a bit after
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: his father kicked him out as the safe theft. So
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I mean it had been the place he was living
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: for like two weeks there, just before this all happened,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: So he was pretty comfortable coming and going there as
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: he pleased. And I remember thinking this case when I
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: started working on it, like maybe Kame's acting weird or
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable because he had like pistol in his pocket. But
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: according to Brian's mother, like he tells her as he's
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: coming in the door, he's got a pistol in his
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: pocket and he's out target shooting before this.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: The thing that struck I think Kenneth and Amanda has
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: as I remember talking to them, was that he knocked
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: on the door right like, it's not even that he
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: came in the front door, so that he knocked, yeah,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: like that normally he would just walk.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: In, but he could see in the window because that's
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: where Charles puslice'es out later and sees there's company over
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: to meet. Didn't stand out that that's strange, And again,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: no one has the statement recorded right away, so we're
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: dealing with statements that came months or even more than
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: a year later on. But there's also like some suggestion
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: that the knocking that was so weird to them was
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: not the knocking on the front door, but the knocking
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: on Brian's door, because there's several people who recall him
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: knocking on Brian's bedroom doors after he came in, Brian
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: asking who is it, and Cain saying it's me, buddy,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: and then Brian saying come in. So it's not clear
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: if the knocking was Strands because I was on the
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: front door or was on Brian's bedroom door. We also
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: got a question from Minus wit Humor on Twitter, who
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: wrote that both the experts in the forensics episode mentioned
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: burning from hot gases and that gunpowder could burn into
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: the bone. Could that burnt bone still hold gunpowder chemical
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: residue's exclamation possible? Well, whether exhiamation is possible, you'd have
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to go through the courts. I don't know how likely
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: it is that anyone would win that motion. Kin has
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: actually tried that before, He tried to move the court
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: to have the body zoomed to check just that, and
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: he was denied. So previously that's gone nowhere. But assuming
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: an exhamation could occur, then actually, yeah, there's probably a
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: pretty good chance that you could determine for certain if
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: it was or was not in contact wound. If it
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: was a contact wound, there should be gunpowder and soot
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: etched into the bone itself, which would still be could
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: still be determined and found. And we also had a
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: question from Casey Williams on Instagram, and she asked how
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: exactly are why did they make an arrest on Lee Clark?
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Prior to Charlie's statement, y'all mentioned he was already in
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: custody when Charlie talked to place. That whole thing happened
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: three days after Lee's and Kane's arrest. The arrest of
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Lean Kine came after first the statements from Angela Bruce,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: who had the party where she says the boys confessed,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: and the statement from Debbie Kelly when she says the
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: NARC's rope book. Within a span of like four days,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: I talked to these witnesses and then they make the
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: arrest right away, and it's only after that they talked
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: to Charlie. So the arrest itself was based on the
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: confession of the party and the Gang Girl book.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: We also got a question by email from Monique who asked,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: shouldn't it be a huge conflict of interest that the
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: lady who cleaned the house and saw the notebook and
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: went to testify was also working with police and interviewing Kane.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: It's not so much a conflict of interest because I
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: would preclude her from testifying, but it's something that could
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: have been used to impeach her and to undermine in
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: credibility that the defense did not really utilize. It's just
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: a very strange situation all around as well. It's not
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: clear how or why this arrangement was allowed to occur.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: All we know is that Debbie Kelly is apparently inserting
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: herself into the case of the stolen safe and doing
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: what she can to get that soul for David Stewart.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: We also had a few people write in to find
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: out when and if we'll be hearing from Craig Burns.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: We will be hearing Craig Burns, not this week, but
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I believe the week after that.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: What's on the next episode.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Next episode, we are discussing the free birds and who
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: are what they actually were, and we're also hearing from
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: a witness that the police never talked to, which is
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Joseph Wilkins who drew the weed eagal note found in
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Brian's casket. Thanks for listening to this episode of Proof sidebar.
• 29:03
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• 29:05
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• 29:11
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