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Designing Your Slice of Heaven with Leo Santana · "What's Next? Conversations with Boomers"

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: You are listening to What's Next: Conversations with Boomers.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Barb Demaray, your host.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Today we have on Leo Santana, who is an interior designer, owns a design company called De novo.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: He is a partner and a founder of the company.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Leo does everything from paint consultations to designing wallpaper, fabrics, interior design, and he also is an avid gardener and loves to decorate the garden and the surroundings of the garden.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought, why don't we have Leo come on and teach us about beautifying our balconies?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: So many of us have downsized from our family home to a condo.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: And we have either a patio or we have a balcony.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: So Leo, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a pleasure to be back and to talk about something, a subject that I love is a passion, is a hobby, and it's something that I always like to do, right?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: So every chance that I have, I am with my hands on the dirt and planting.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: If I have a large pot or a small pot or a big yard, you know, I always liked planting.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this for me will be fantastic.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, great, right.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I forgot to say that you are a return guest.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: And who knows?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: We'll probably have you on again.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, first of all, Leo, what are some kind of basic guidelines around adding flowers to your balcony?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just talk in the general to start with.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one of the things we have to take in consideration, of course, everybody lives in different zones, right?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like we are here in beautiful British Columbia.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, of course, uh, uh we have all four seasons.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Some places in another countries, you might not notice the season so much.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, of course, plants will react to where are they growing, you know, what kind of weather, what kind of seasons you so that's one of the first things you have to take in consideration.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you live and what plants will do well there, what kind of flowers will do well there, right?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first thing.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I plant something that is very tropical, because I love tropical plants, so I have to be careful, because of course, when comes uh the winter, you know, if I don't know what to do with them, you know, how to protect them, they will die, right?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the first things I always consider is where do I live?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what's the kind of weather that I have, and so on.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Once I know that, what zone we live, right?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like in Canada, we have uh four or five different zones.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the main thing because I don't want other plants to be dying on me every time that, you know.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, of course, yes, they are the annuals and there are the perennials.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, perennials will come back every year, uh, as long as they don't die with a frost or so on.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then the annuals, which those are the fun ones because you can just bring color, like instant color, to your garden or to your balcony, right?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, those are the main things that I always concentrate on.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then I can go and choose what kind of plants.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, it's totally up to you, you know, if you like more flowers, if you like more foliage, you know what I mean?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, that's pretty much what I do.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's important, yes, to know the zone.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because, as you say, somebody could decide, oh, I love tropical plants, and then find out later, oh, they don't grow here at all.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: I took a course one time on container gardening.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: So most of us have containers on our balcony, and the rule was have a thriller and a spiller and a filler.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Do you endorse that?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Do you go by that rule as well?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, most of the time, yes, because see, again, it goes back to that.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what kind of plants do I like, right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I personally do like, like I was saying before, I was born in Brazil, so I grew up with tropical plants, and you know, so I like bringing that feeling to my balcony, and so I go with big leaves, right?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like hostas or or calaliles or memento banana leaves, right?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a small balcony, so I have to be careful what I bring because I don't want one plant to totally, you know, the thriller to totally take over, right?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to be selective there.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, I do agree it's a nice way against that rule of tree that we apply in design, right?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Rule of trees.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: So on this case, the thriller, this pillar, you know, and it just creates a nice balance.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing that you have to take in consideration is where if you're grouping plants, you know, okay, your thriller is the one that's gonna grow the highest.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't want to put in front of the other plants, right?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, like everything in design, you have to plan, you know what I mean?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so the plants that are gonna grow the most will be on the back, right?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the demsection, and then these pillars which kind of are it just flows and kind of create that nice cascade or something.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, that that's one of the many ways that you can work with plants.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Leo, maybe we should give people an idea.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you've never planted a container before, or you've planted a container but really didn't know how to do it, give some examples of what some good thrillers are and fillers and spillers.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say, like I was saying in my case, like ornamental banana tree, right?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's they they don't grow very big, they but they do spill.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or a canal lily, right?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: That grows tall and then it has a beautiful flower on top, right?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the thrillers, right?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Even uh ornamental grass that grows nice and tall.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: So anything that, you know, or uh let's say a Japanese maple, right?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a beer on a container, it can be quite beautiful.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be the top, right?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes bamboo, right?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: So everything that will be the most visual impact, right?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that would be your thriller.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: The filler will be something that will be around that plant as a base, right?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's gonna grow, I don't know, maybe no more than halfway than the bigger one, because you don't want to be something that will grow like you know, half to maybe one-third of the main, the thriller plant.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, these pillars, which is usually something like lobilias, right?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or even uh beautiful pansies.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that uh they are the trailing ones, so those that the trails and then cascades or fuchsia, you know, that those nice cascade fuchsia, anything that will cascade.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's with that like small, median, and large, the rule of tree.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm applying with as a designer, I always tend to apply that rule of tree, even with planting.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Leo, can you talk a little bit about labelia?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: I buy labelia every single year, but I have such bad luck with it, it just dies as much as I try to water it.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: What is the secret to keeping labelia alive?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's a secret, of course, a light is important, right?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know your balcony, uh what you're facing, because that's another thing that I was going to mention when we talk about one of the important things about planting is okay, are you facing north, south, east, west, right?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: How much sun do you you have?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And some plants will do terribly if it's too much sun, and others will not thrive if it's too much shade, right?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another important thing when you're picking plants.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now back to lobelia, which actually has been a while since I used lobelia, but it doesn't have to be too much sun, but they do like sun, you know, they will not thrive on the shade.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Most plants that bloom, you know, they need the sun, right?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's why when you have a shady place, things like hostas or ferns, which I love then, they will thrive because they don't even bloom.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, hostas have some blooms to it, but is you will get in hostas more because of the the leaves, really.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: The leaves are the showstopper.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the flowers are not that significant on us.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: But if there's a plant that like blooming, most of them, not all of them, they will thrive if you have enough sun, right?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, watering is very important.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: People, oh, you know, keep watering every day.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, not every plant needs to be watered every day, sometimes once a week.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, depending on the weather, if it's too hot, then maybe a couple of times or so on.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, it's all depending on the plant.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing that happens often is people plant plants with different needs, watering needs together.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: So if I have a hosta, right, and let's say that's quite uh exaggerating, but let's say if I have a hosta and then I have like a cacti, they are not going to work together because a hosta likes you know a wet soil and a cacti is not going to.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And some people sometimes they don't think about that, or even like something that's very common succulents, right?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: They don't need a lot of water.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: You water like once a week, maybe twice uh once every two weeks, because they do you know keep the water, so they don't need a lot of water.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to be careful what I plant with.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: So sorry, back to lobelia.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's because I so much to explain, so I get out of mind.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so but back to lobelia, I would say less sun, not too much sun, because they are fragile, they are so feathery, kind of a nice, delicate plant.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So they will fry is too much sun.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just make sure that before you water, you know, that the soil is kind of a little on a dry side, not only dry, because then immediately you can see that they kind of wilt if it's dry, right?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I always, you know, go in a morning touch.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's still a little moist and so on.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: The soil is not too dry, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the secret.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Not too much light, don't let it totally dry.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully you have a green thumb because that helps a lot.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people, my friends always say, My friends always say, your plants do so well.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: But like my mom, I'm happy to say I do have a green thumb.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have friends that said, Oh my god, I just look at a plant and the plant dies.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Leo, what about you know, planting in a container?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was always taught, not like a garden bed where you're kind of planting, you know, a few inches apart in a container, you cram as much in as possible.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Do you agree with that?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't necessarily agree with that because you know, if you plant everything together, some plants will take over and will pretty much kill, let's say, the not so strong plants.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had that experience.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I went immediately subtraction with my plants.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: I want to plant and put the container, and it looks like it's been there forever, right?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I used to put a lot of plants there, and then all of a sudden I had to start, okay, they are dying.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, there is no air circulation, and that's when you start getting muju and all that kind of stuff.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to be careful with that.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: I do not necessarily agree with that just because I had problems before, because I I am one of those that I wanted the container to look big and beautiful and full of flowers, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that sometimes it can just backfire when you put too many plants.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Gardening is such an experimental kind of thing, isn't it?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Every year is a little bit different, and you learn, okay, that didn't work, so scrap that this year.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're an avid gardener, obviously.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Do you try different things all the time?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: All the time.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I take pictures of all my containers, right?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: So because then I said, okay, this worked well this summer, and I love this, so I will plant that again next year.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or, oh, this one didn't do so well, obviously, is the wrong location, or it's just not, you know, agree with whatever is happening here.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I like it, but it's not going to work next year.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not going to, you know, spend time and money and all that work on something that's not going to thrive.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing that I like mixing is flowers.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And even though it's a container, I always like having some herbs.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I always have like rosemary, I might have a sage, or I might have even mint or basil, because I use those in my kitchen.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's nice to have a little container with that's my herb container.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: But again, uh rosemary doesn't need a lot of water, you know, because it's kind of a Mediterranean plant, so it likes dry and so on.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I cannot mix that with, let's say, with mint, because mint likes to have moisture and you know, a moist soil.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to be careful with that.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: But last year I decided to plant tomatoes.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I have plants, I have flowers, but I decide I want tomatoes, like those uh cherry tomatoes.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: I never planted tomato in my life, right?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: My mom used to plant, and I used to love as a kid just to go and pluck right on the plant and eat, right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought, oh, I want to do that again.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I went and I got this plant, this tomato plant, not realized there was a vine tomato, right?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So all of a sudden these things start to grow and grow and grow.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's taking over everything.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's beautiful.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: But this vine was like the giant and the bean, or whatever, whatever that uh fable is, you know, the magical being.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: So what that's the magical tomato was taking over the the my little bubble.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoy the little tomatoes, but I say, okay, I'm not doing that next year, at least not a vine tomatoes anyway.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you talk about Jack and the beanstalk.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, gosh, there's so much to talk about.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about north facing versus south facing.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we can't cover every zone, every part of the world.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll talk about the west coast of British Columbia.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: You've got a north-facing balcony, and somebody else has a south-facing balcony.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, what guidelines can you give them?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I had the experience with both, because I have a place on North Shore in North Vancouver, facing the mountain.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I got very little, very little direct sunlight.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: So luckily, because I do like foliages, so I research, and there are some plants that bloom north facing with very little light, like fuchsia.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Fuchsia, amazingly, they do very well.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they don't need a lot of light.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: But that there are not many plants that you can put on uh north facing.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I had this beautiful, it's like a forget me knot with those those tiny little blue flowers, and it did so well.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: It just took over, and so I had this splash of uh blue, you know, and then the fusions with the pink.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: So they together came out so it became so nice.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Another one that did very well was the bleeding hearts, also did very well north facing, but the rest was pretty much foliages, a lot of ferns, some grasses that do well actually on a shady garden.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, of course, the hostas, the ferns, and and of course, evergreens.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's for north facing.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Leo, I've always planted, I mean, I'm in a different place than I was when we were last talking.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's not north facing, but I'm surrounded by a very thick hedge.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't get a lot of light.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I put a lot of impatience and begonia in it, and they do okay.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Impatience, they really thrive on shade.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I forgot about that, but they do really thrive very, they really go crazy, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And they last long, they go until the until the first frost, right?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So they go throughout and always blooming.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a good call.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: The other one you mentioned.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Begonia.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: The begonias, yes.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm living on uh English Bay, and we are kind of uh east south kind of uh so we got quite a bit of sun in the morning, most of the morning till kind of uh uh mid-afternoon, depending on uh on the time of the year.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I still have begonias, but what I do, my begonia, I make sure that it's on a shaded side of the balcony, right?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And usually uh protected by other plants, so behind other plants, and they do very well, you know, even though I get a lot of sun, right?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So begonia, and I have to make sure that the soil is always moist and you know, not too dry because they they like that, like they like the coolness.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very important too.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's move on to a south-facing balcony, a balcony that gets a lot of sun.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Tons of sun.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it helps if you have uh a faucet or in a hose uh in your balcony, because what I do is is I do this big water can that I keep going back and forth to the kitchen filled up and back to the balcony.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: But like I was saying before, cacties, of course, but not everybody wants to deal with cacties, they can be very prickly, of course.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: But there are a lot of some loving plants and flowers.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to think what would be because, see, even though I have a lot of sun on my balcony, I still go for more the uh the foliages, and not all of them are good for a lot of sun.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: But grasses, you know, beautiful containers with beautiful grasses, you know, there are so many different kinds of grasses that grow very nicely, and they are low maintenance.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're like I mentioned before, even some herbs that look quite beautiful, or box wood, you know, the boxwood on a container looks quite nice, all sorts of flowers.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, last year, for example, on the container that gets more sun on my balcony, I planted actually wildflowers, and they did so well because they love sun, right?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that container again was kind of taking over because and I got all these different varieties of flowers on the same container.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it looks like a miniature garden, a miniature kind of an English garden because it was so many beautiful flowers.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the good thing about those packages is you not always know what you're gonna get.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I was really happy with that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So this year I did the same thing, right?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I like having those different flowers, and they bloom in different times of the season, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So all season along ahead.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: So those are also very good for salt because uh they had poppies, poppies love the sunshine, like the California poppies, the regular poppies, and another ones like foxgloves.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Foxgloves also love sun, right?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, the pansies, you know, uh geraniums in my building, like the beautiful geraniums all summer along.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and geraniums they also love because again, if you think about in the Mediterranean, you know, if you've ever been to Greece or Portugal, they have a lot of sun, hot sun, and they have beautiful windows, you know, with the all those geraniums, and they are so easy to grow, right?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: You just have to remember to deadhead because the more you deadhead, the more new bloom comes off, right?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: But again, as so many.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have to make a list of uh some loving plants, but that's the thing.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: When you choose new plants, make sure that you read the label, like shade, parch, sun, part shade, and sunny.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Leo, just want to go back to the wildflowers.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you bought a package of seeds and they had a mixture of wildflowers.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 19:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And when did you plant?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: What month did you plant?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: I plant early May because I want to make sure that when they started coming out, it was not too cold because then it could die.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, you plant directly on the soil in a container, right?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to make sure that was not uh going to, and because my balcony is a little protected, I thought, okay, May will be a good time.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: But they germinated like within a week, you start seeing you know the little bits of greens, and when they take off, boy, they take off.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: So we're in mid-June right now.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: How tall are they?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Some already start blooming, and there are some that uh you can see because like on the mix last year, I don't know what I'm getting this year, but on the mix last year, I had hollyhawk, and the hollyhawk was pretty much the last ones to because they grow into a bigger plant, right?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: But when it was like August, they were blooming, they were so beautiful, so much that I actually, for one of my wallpapers and my fabrics, I actually create a pattern based on those flowers.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I basically just draw the flowers, I paint the flowers, and I create a nice uh pattern for wallpaper and fabric.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So again, you know, my garden gives me a lot of inspiration.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: No kidding.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about decor.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find that less is more, or is it just put as much stuff in your balcony as you want because you want to create some ambience, you want it to be an outdoor experience?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: What happened is again, it's like a house, right?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I treat my balcony like it's an extension of my house, right?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is the purpose of my balcony?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want a balcony just to put plants there?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, of course, depending on the size of the balcony, you know, if it's a miniature garden or balcony, that is so much you can put there.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: You still want to be able to step outside, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, of course, new condominios, these moderate condominios, you can find anything from a tiny balcony to a very large one.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is the purpose of your balcony?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you want a place to relax.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, do you have enough room to put, let's say, a lounge chair there, or even a small chair that with a little bistro table that in the morning you can go sit and have a cup of coffee and you know, read a book?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you have a big enough that you can entertain?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Then, you know, when I had a patio, I could entertain.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I Had like a nice you know eight people place table, you know, chairs.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Then I had the a little kind of a lounge sofa, exterior outdoor sofa on another corner, and so on.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, because that allowed me to do that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And some balconies you can do that, other balconies are so small that you won't be able to do it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that more is is better.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Even if I do have a large space, I still want to make sure that's well designed, it's well proportional.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And like I say, if you entertain, then yes, you have to make sure that you have enough place for people to come and sit and have a drink or a dinner.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not that big enough, then I have to think about storage.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I wanna my plants and I need a place to storage my tools, to store uh pots, to storage uh soil or pillows.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a lot of furniture that serve as a double kind of a function, right?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there are beautiful benches that you can sit, put nice pillows, but you open and all your tools and all the whatever you don't need, you don't want to see goes into those.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it depends on the function, what do you need to entertain, or is just gardening?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's just gardening, do you have a place where you're gonna prepare your pots?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you want a little planting station.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a lot of things that you have to consider when you decorating your balcony, mostly are multi-purpose.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: You want to do as much as you can with your balcony, right?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you need uh area to sit, right?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: You need uh uh maybe a small dining space if you have big enough.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you have to have your containers, and then you have to have your heating storage.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the main things that I consider when I'm decorating or designing a balcony.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's pretend somebody wants, they've got a we'll say medium-sized balcony, not tiny, not huge.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And they want a balcony just to go out and relax.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Decorate that for us.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I would do, of course, again, depending on my square area, I will need a place to sit, place to put my drink.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I will get, let's say, if I don't entertain a lot, at least a couple of chairs because I will have some company to come, a friend to visit.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: We want to sit outside, right?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: With uh uh a small table.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now that table can be maybe a medium to large size coffee table with storage, right?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we think about storage because you might want to put things away.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you do have enough room, maybe a little side table that uh you can have uh, you know, even outdoor glasses or a little dish or so on if you really want to entertain.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: I love lighting, especially at night.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you might want to put some nice uh uh lights on your pots, like some lights, uh it can be uh solar power, so you don't even need to connect if you have enough sun.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't, if you're not facing, then you might want something that you can plug in.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, a plant that's litten at night, it looks so pretty, right?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I do have light all year round, not just for Christmas, you know, because um I like lighting even on my little balcony, right?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: When I had a garden, then my trees would have lighting because I think it looks so pretty at night.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe a little area carpet, you know, depending on what kind of floor you have on your patio.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's just a concrete, so maybe an area rug.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or there are other ways of addressing the floor, even a wooden kind of uh tiles that you can put on it and looks quite nice.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you get a lot of sun, you might want to have an umbrella because you don't want to be sitting there and you know being covered because it's too hot.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: What else?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh wall decor.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Some places might not allow, some condominiums might not allow you to put things on walls, but if they do, I would treat like a room.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're decorating a room, it's an extension of your house, right?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it's pretty much it.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if I have more space, then I put more things.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes, you know, you can put even like an outdoor sofa when more people can sit around and you can make an arrangement around that, like pretty much creating a nice little living room outside, right?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, but if you don't, then two chairs is enough, or maybe just one lounge chair where you can actually lie down and you know read a book and a small chair for someone else to sit on it.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: But add plants, even if you're just wanting to go out there and relax, add plants to your balcony along with your chair and your table.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was just talking about the furnishing, but of course the plants.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: And another thing, too, a lot of people don't think about that, but it doesn't have to be always on the floor, right?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: There is the vertical planting.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: There are some wall planters that you can hang on a wall.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: So because you don't have a lot of enough room on the floor itself, use your walls, which can be quite beautiful.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And nowadays, you can buy some beautiful trellises or shelves and those live walls, right?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Depending on the, of course, a little bit more work, but it looks beautiful.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't necessarily have to be all the containers on the floor.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Just getting back to the furniture, I find that it makes a big difference if you spend a little bit of money on nice looking furniture rather than something plastic from Walmart, right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, but I haven't bought any of those.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, of course, you you buy what you can afford, but make sure that it is gonna look nice.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: I remember selling actually some furniture, some raw iron furniture that looks quite beautiful, or buying on let's say even Facebook market, you know what I mean?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: That always people selling stuff, and sometimes it might not be.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I remember one lady she bought these tables that I had uh and chairs, like raw iron chairs and so on, and she loves it, and she was going just to paint, repaint that, right?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes you find amazing furniture and you don't have to to spend a fortune for it.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, I would avoid plasticky kind of things.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, plastic is not my thing, but it's the same thing with like there's a lot of plastic containers that looks quite good because they do look like terracotta and so on.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And for some situations, they are good because they are not going to crack if they freeze and so on, right?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, I do like my real terracotta, my real ceramic pots and so on.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the same thing with furniture, if you can get a beautiful thick chair versus a plastic chair, of course, I'm gonna, you know, buy something like that.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it may be a little bit more maintenance because with Tiki wood, you might have to oil and make it, you know, but it's part of the is the same thing in your house.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you still have to polish your you know wooden furniture if you want to keep for long, right?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: So the same thing for your outdoor furniture, and also when you can see your balcony from your living room, for instance, you're consuming that outside from the inside, right?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: That outside space becomes part of your living space, even just visually.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the that's your balcony, like your garden, it has to be an extension of your house, right?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's nice to flow.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot you can you can do whatever you want, but you should not, you know, have a completely different kind of feel on your balcony than you have in your house.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a more traditional house, you don't want to go outside and have this balcony that's ultra-modern, right?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or vice versa.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: You have this beautiful modern contemporary place, and then you go outside and you have like all antique furniture, and they it's disconnected.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to make sure that what's happening inside is gonna flow into the outside and vice versa.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: When you're doing landscape, if you have a house, let's say, you know, you want to make sure that the landscape matches the house, right?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have this beautiful old traditional home with a garden that is so slicky and and modern, it's just disconnected, right?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Just talking about flooring, do you ever use mad mats?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what mad mats are?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Which would you they're not washable, they're made from recycled material, and they're especially, I guess you could put them indoor, but they've got an outdoor feel to them.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: But they're lovely, and you can get them in all sorts of patterns.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: Mad mats is actually what they're called, and there's imitations of them.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: What do you put on your floor, on your balcony floor?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Our building is from 1959, so it has that retro look.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the tiles that they have there, I love it because it suits the building.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't want to hide.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, like I said, it's such a miniature balcony that anything that I put there is gonna, you know, won't make sense.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: So right now I kept the tiles that we have there.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's those uh red terracotta tiles.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I love them.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think they look perfect with what I have.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: My place in North Vend, because it's uh it's a modern you know condominium, so they have those big uh concrete slats, which is now my favorite.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: So the the dining area section of the balcony, I had an outdoor carpet, right?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I like that because again, it creates different zones within the patio, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have a balcony that's large enough, that's another way of creating different zones, maybe a nice outdoor air rug.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this is where we have our meal, right?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or this is where we sit down.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: So right now I don't, but uh I've seen before and I've done before for clients imitation grass.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, they are not natural grass, but there's some that absolutely you have to take a second look and touch to make sure that's not real.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Before was that green that, like, you can tell a mile away, that's like so fake, right?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I had clients that they didn't want to put a carpet, but they wanted to have that feel that they were outside.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we did the entire balcony with that grass, a little expensive, but it looks beautiful, right?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you have the feeling that you are actually in a garden.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another way of doing it as well.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I usually that doesn't happen very often because not everybody likes that, no matter how natural they look, it's too fake.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I usually rely more on air rugs because there's so many beautiful air rugs, and again, and they are not that expensive.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And some air rugs you can even change them, something more colorful or bright on the summer, and then when it comes fall, you can change it to something more fall colors, winter colors.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, because a lot of balconies, uh, especially if they're a little protected, people still sit outside, you know, or they might put a heater, outdoor heater.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: I have clients that we have, you know, uh heaters outside and they still entertain outside with nice, beautiful blankets on the sofa and so on.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we still could sit outside and and have, you know, another people, if it's again big enough, you can even have a fire pit, right?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's those fire pits and sit around so small fire pits.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: I see those uh all the time in balconies.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you can use if you know how to decorate, you know, how to use your balcony, you can use actually all year round.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: When you were describing your balcony in North Vancouver, I'm curious what color is your carpet underneath the the table?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: On this particular one, I use a blue with some stripe.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I might have some pictures.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: If I had some pictures, I would send and post them.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but uh yes, yes, I had something that was more I didn't want to put too much color because my chairs were very colorful.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: They were the same chair, but each one was a different color.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't want to, you know, put a carpet that was too colorful because then it would be way too busy.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think even with a balcony or a patio without an actual garden, we can create beautiful outdoor spaces, right?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Especially because a lot of people, they don't, you see, I'm lucky enough that our balcony is facing the water, right?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: We are right in English space, so we see the beach and so on.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very, very lucky that way.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: But not everybody has a nice view, right?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like my place in North Bend, because it's on the ground floor facing north, I didn't have a great view.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I want to make the patio itself, the planting, lush, and and you know, because that was my view, my own balcony.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: On this case, it's a small balcony, but we have this amazing view.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's the beach and and so on.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there are some little details that I bring that makes people remember or remind then of a beach place, right?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: So even a little sign on the wall that says beach.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, and I live on Beach Avenue, so the sign was perfect.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's beach and little pebbles, just like little decoratings, uh, maybe a lanter, all these little details.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like decorating a house, not too much, but just enough details to give that feel.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've got a patio.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm on the first floor of my building, and as I was saying, it can only take shade, but I don't sit out there very much, Leo, because I'm right next to the train.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And when the train whistle blows, it is deafening.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I've got large windows, I love to look at it, it does become part of my whole environment.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what was pretty much happening with me.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like I like looking at it.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: So even if I was not outside on my patio, looking outside, I made sure that the little sofa that I had with beautiful, colorful pillows and a statue was right direct to the window.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: So when I'm looking outside, that's what I'm seeing.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like the room went outside.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: So because I didn't have a great view, the planting behind the sofa, the statue, the light at night, you know, the pillows, you know, the little table and so on.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: That was so basically uh the building across, I didn't even notice because I create a focal point, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what people should do.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: If there is something that is not too attractive or what they are not happy to look at, create a distraction.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Put something that your eye will go to that instead of the uh area that you don't don't like or you know, don't like to look at it.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes what I used to do, because again on the ground floor, uh, people sometimes would be walk outside and they could see in my patio.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: But if I was having guests and we are having dinner, I had a screen that I would place so people, when they walk by, they would see a nice screen but won't see us having dinner outside, right?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many tricks you can use to create privacy and to create a focal point.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the statues that I used to have on my patio, I actually moved into this little balcony and still made it work.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Only two of them, of course, uh, but still that they are not that large, but they still work, right?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: But again, even though it's a tiny little balcony and my focal point is really the beach, but I still want to have those kind of uh, you know, little things that I look and brings me happiness, right?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or makes me think of you know, this Buddha head that I have is from Bali.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it makes me think of you know a tropical place, right?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: So something like that.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I just love this because if you don't have a view, create your own view.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, like I said, it's yeah, decorate your outdoor space so that when you're looking outside, you see this, these beautiful plants, furniture, decor, and that's what you look at.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have a view, so I'm really enjoying having a little garden to look out to.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is so fun! Oh gosh, and and I sometimes, you know, when I see a naked balcony, I think, I know it's not everybody's interest at all, but you could create such a beautiful little space for yourself there, and it doesn't have to be huge.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what is worse than an empty balcony for me is those balconies that people just see storage everything in it.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you oh yeah, you walk around and you see boxes and you see it's just like storage room, and I think that is I rather see an empty balcony than see people, please don't.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's just ugly, and your neighbor doesn't deserve to look at your discarded things if you don't have storage means you know, and if it's in your balcony, obviously you don't need that, so get rid of it, you know, sell or I I I just don't understand why people put so much junk on their balconies.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't understand.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's worse and such an eyesore when you're walking past a balcony that is just full of a couple of bikes and boxes and equipment, and oh yeah.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh just one more thing that uh, you know, because we love plants and I in gardeners, even if you're not a real gardener, but most gardeners, if you ask, because you see a lot of uh artificial plants, you know what I mean?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Some areas I might understand, well, or maybe you don't have a green thumb, but you like plants as well.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that there are some beautiful artificial plants, but with artificial plants, eventually they will fade because they are getting sun and so on.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: They look like they really look bad.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if you cannot plant really, if you're really not into the planting and you wanna, yes, there are, but make sure that you buy something that looks very nice.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: And when it starts fading, please replace it.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: But that is kind of a last, last way that I would go in terms of gardening is the artificial.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: I have nothing artificial on my house, but I understand that some people said, Oh, I just can't plant, I don't know how to plant, and I want to have something, then go for it, make sure that it's beautiful.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And when it starts fading, just throw away and get something new.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Good tip.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I just a huge thank you to you, Leo.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: This is really fun, and it's an idea that I had for a long time, and then I just, you know, it took me a while to get it together.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm so glad that you were available.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: How can people reach you?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, yes, my email address is Leo L E O Santana S-A-N-T-A-N-A design at gmail.com.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: So anybody can reach me that way and uh you know send me an email.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also on Instagram, and actually, probably you see some of my garden pictures on Instagrams, Leo.santana decor.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's on my Instagram if you you know if people saw, and there'll be quite a few pictures there.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um on my design site, you can see some of uh my designs, especially for the fabrics, inspiration with the flowers.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of florals there, is uh denovodesign.com.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you again.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: This has just been really great.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, here on What's Next, we cover a wide range of topics.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: We've gone from exercise to gardening.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you again, Leo.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and thanks to my sister for referring you to me, me to you.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: You're very welcome.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh was a pleasure being here again.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And who knows, if you have some subject that you think I can be helpful, I'll be delighted to do this again.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: This episode was written and recorded by Barb Demaray, edited and produced by Aidan Glassy.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: As always, special thanks to our guests for making it possible.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed and you'd like to hear more, follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow the show on YouTube at what's next.convos with boomers.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.