Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Idaho Students Murders: Was Kaylee the Target?

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Idaho Students Murders: Was Kaylee the Target? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Still no motive, no murder weapon, and no suspect. As
0:10
Speaker 1: tensions mount and the small town of Moscow, Idaho. This
0:16
Speaker 1: as we learn according to the four student victims families,
0:22
Speaker 1: one of the girls was the target. That is a
0:28
Speaker 1: huge break in this murder investigation. We also learn the
0:34
Speaker 1: families of the slain victims are actually hiring private investigators.
0:41
Speaker 1: This as an eerie handprint emerges on the sliding glass
0:46
Speaker 1: door of the so called murder house. We also understand
0:51
Speaker 1: the family is questioning where certain people ruled out as
0:56
Speaker 1: suspects way too soon. I Nancy, Great, this is crime Stories.
1:01
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
1:04
Speaker 1: and serious XM one eleven. In my mind evaluating this case,
1:09
Speaker 1: the possibility that, as we pointed out on day one,
1:16
Speaker 1: one of the girls specifically was targeted. If that's true,
1:22
Speaker 1: that is a watershed moment in this case. First of all,
1:26
Speaker 1: take a listen to this. Your daughter and Maddie had
1:29
Speaker 1: different means or manner of attack, and that suggests one
1:33
Speaker 1: of them was targeted. Can you share with us? Do
1:37
Speaker 1: you know? When you can't share either way which one
1:40
Speaker 1: was targeted? I can't. I ask for permission to do
1:43
Speaker 1: just that and they said, no, I'm probably over disclosed
1:49
Speaker 1: information that they wish I wouldn't have said. But this
1:52
Speaker 1: story is going cold. There's less people coming to Moscow.
1:57
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna go sleep my bed knowing that I
2:01
Speaker 1: could get up and I could go to town and
2:03
Speaker 1: I could I could do something, And now I'm not
2:06
Speaker 1: going to go away. You're hearing our friend Pete Hegseas
2:10
Speaker 1: speaking on Fox News too, Keiley Gonsalves's father. Can you
2:15
Speaker 1: imagine that feeling? You're trying to find your daughter's killer,
2:19
Speaker 1: grappling with her murder, and suddenly everybody that seems interested
2:24
Speaker 1: at all in solving the case, one by one began
2:28
Speaker 1: to leave town with me and All Star panel to
2:33
Speaker 1: make sense of what we know right now. But before
2:35
Speaker 1: I go straight out to Stephanie Pagonas, crime reporter, Fox
2:38
Speaker 1: News Digital, I want to hear one more thing from
2:42
Speaker 1: Kelly Gonsalvas's dad. Take a listen to him speaking on
2:47
Speaker 1: Fox knees. I'll cut to the chase. Yeah, there means
2:53
Speaker 1: of dad don't match you. That's they don't end Kaylee's
2:58
Speaker 1: cause of death if that's not based on the autopsy report,
3:02
Speaker 1: and I'll match would indicate that one of them. He
3:05
Speaker 1: doesn't have to. Let's stop playing games, guys. I need
3:09
Speaker 1: somebody step up and be an outfit, be somebody to
3:13
Speaker 1: be a leader. Don't make me do it. I don't
3:15
Speaker 1: want to do it. He doesn't have to go up
3:17
Speaker 1: the steps they're Matt. There are points of damage don't match.
3:22
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say it wasn't leaked to me. I
3:25
Speaker 1: earned that. I paid for that funeral. I paid for that.
3:28
Speaker 1: It's my right. It ain't taking that from me. If
3:32
Speaker 1: you don't want to say nothing, that's your bed. But
3:34
Speaker 1: don't say I'm leaking anything. I paid that bill, sent
3:38
Speaker 1: my daughter to college to get an education. She came
3:41
Speaker 1: back in the box, and I can speak on that,
3:43
Speaker 1: you know, Stephanie Pagans, hold on just my moment. I
3:46
Speaker 1: want to get to a special guest joining us. Ted Williams,
3:49
Speaker 1: former Washington DC Police detective, defense lawyer Fox needs contributor.
3:54
Speaker 1: Start on Power of Attorney. Ted. That just gave me
3:58
Speaker 1: chills all the way down, because I know you like
4:03
Speaker 1: how I was spoken. So many homicide victim's families, this
4:07
Speaker 1: dad and mommy, hear the mom going calm down, calm down.
4:10
Speaker 1: He can't calm down. He's not getting any answers. He
4:14
Speaker 1: is beside himself, Nancy. He's frustrated, and rightfully so. His
4:19
Speaker 1: child that he sent to college came back to him
4:24
Speaker 1: in a box. And as your audience should understand, this
4:30
Speaker 1: is a very very emotional scenario for that man. And
4:36
Speaker 1: when you look at the fact that they talked about
4:40
Speaker 1: this targeting, and then you get worried from investigators, well
4:45
Speaker 1: we don't know who to target was, Well, we don't
4:48
Speaker 1: know if the house was targeted. This is a bunch
4:52
Speaker 1: of b s. Either you put out a legitimate story
4:58
Speaker 1: or you don't say a thing. And under the circumstances here,
5:03
Speaker 1: this father has a right to feel the way he does.
5:07
Speaker 1: And if you think about it for a second, if
5:10
Speaker 1: the killer or killers came through the sliding backs glass
5:16
Speaker 1: door on the back of the home, he would have
5:20
Speaker 1: encountered both Ethan and Zany in on the second floor
5:27
Speaker 1: that home. If they were to target, well, he would
5:31
Speaker 1: have killed him, and it's more likely than not that
5:34
Speaker 1: he would have been left. But the killer or killers
5:38
Speaker 1: went up to that third floor where Maddie and Kayley
5:44
Speaker 1: was sleeping together, according to their father, and they were
5:48
Speaker 1: killed on that second on that third floor. The killer,
5:53
Speaker 1: I believe had to have known something about that home.
5:59
Speaker 1: I believe that the killer has been a killers should
6:03
Speaker 1: we say, have been in that home before. When I
6:06
Speaker 1: heard Ted, the pain and the anger and mister Gonzala's
6:14
Speaker 1: his voice, and I can just see the wife because
6:16
Speaker 1: I've seen it so many times, the wife, you know,
6:21
Speaker 1: holding him by the arm, going calm down, Calm down,
6:24
Speaker 1: calm down, because she knows that when you get crazy
6:28
Speaker 1: and you're angry, the cops don't want to deal with you.
6:31
Speaker 1: They shut you down. But he can't help it. He's
6:35
Speaker 1: at his wits end. I want to analyze what Ted
6:40
Speaker 1: just told us. And remember former Washington DC police detective,
6:45
Speaker 1: not only defense attorney, but detective. He's been on just
6:50
Speaker 1: as many homicide scenes as I have been, if not more.
6:54
Speaker 1: You know, Stephanie pugun is joining me crime and porter
6:56
Speaker 1: fights these digital This is a big deal. This is
7:00
Speaker 1: a very big deal. We've been screaming from day one
7:05
Speaker 1: that somebody, and most likely one of the girls, was targeted,
7:10
Speaker 1: and now we have reason to believe it was gone
7:13
Speaker 1: Salvas's daughter. Now you just heard Ted lay out who
7:19
Speaker 1: was on what floor? Explain what he is saying, and
7:24
Speaker 1: why it is so critical that the killer goes to
7:27
Speaker 1: the second floor, which kind of looks like the ground floor.
7:30
Speaker 1: From one vantage point, there's two people there, they're killed,
7:36
Speaker 1: but he goes up another flight. He could not have
7:40
Speaker 1: gotten in on that third floor. He had to come
7:42
Speaker 1: in through the front door on one or the sliding
7:44
Speaker 1: glass door on two. That he went all the way
7:47
Speaker 1: up to three to continue killing. And there it is
7:51
Speaker 1: where the other two girls were. Explain it, Stephanie, absolutely.
7:56
Speaker 1: So First I want to start by saying, as you said, Nancy,
7:59
Speaker 1: there are three stories in this building. On the top floor,
8:03
Speaker 1: the third floor, Kaylee and Maddie were sleeping in the
8:07
Speaker 1: same bed. On the second floor, Zanna and Ethan were sleeping,
8:12
Speaker 1: and on the bottom floor there were two other roommates
8:16
Speaker 1: who survived these attacks. And we're not harmed now. As
8:20
Speaker 1: the father said, if this suspect did go through the
8:24
Speaker 1: middle floor, he would have had to have gone up
8:28
Speaker 1: the steps because there is no point of entry on
8:31
Speaker 1: the third floor. So, as Ted just explained, if the
8:37
Speaker 1: killer had chosen, assuming the killer did go through the
8:41
Speaker 1: second floor, he or she could have, you know, attacked
8:45
Speaker 1: Zanna and Ethan and then left but instead the killer
8:47
Speaker 1: went upstairs to the third floor, again where there is
8:51
Speaker 1: no point of entry. So that's why mister Gonzalez seems
8:54
Speaker 1: to be explaining that he thinks this was a deliberate move,
8:58
Speaker 1: not just something where a killer just went through the
9:00
Speaker 1: home and attacked anything he or she saw. Let's hear
9:03
Speaker 1: it from Steve will salve us one more time. This
9:06
Speaker 1: is our cut one or two again. Steve was speaking
9:08
Speaker 1: with our friends at Fox. There's a couple of things
9:11
Speaker 1: that tell me with common sense, but I'm not a professional,
9:15
Speaker 1: so I want to specify that. But they've said the
9:18
Speaker 1: entry point was the slider or the window. It was
9:20
Speaker 1: then the middle floor. So to me, he doesn't have
9:23
Speaker 1: to go upstairs. His entry and exit are available without
9:27
Speaker 1: having to go upstairs or downstairs. Looks like he probably
9:31
Speaker 1: may have not gone downstairs. We don't know that for sure,
9:33
Speaker 1: but I obviously went upstairs, so I'm using logic that
9:38
Speaker 1: he chose to go up there when he didn't have to.
9:40
Speaker 1: Another thing, were the injuries significantly different on those two
9:46
Speaker 1: girls I'm talking about Maddie and Kelley says the killer
9:50
Speaker 1: at such a point to go up to the third floor.
9:52
Speaker 1: Were their injuries more severe. Were they posed in any way?
9:56
Speaker 1: Were they and when I'm say posing, I don't mean
9:59
Speaker 1: anything dravagant, I mean were their faces covered up with
10:02
Speaker 1: a pillow? Were they unclothed that were they moved in
10:06
Speaker 1: any way that would also differentiate them from the other victims.
10:11
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut one twenty four. This
10:14
Speaker 1: is Jim Murray at Inside Edition published reports day that
10:19
Speaker 1: Kayley was subjected to a more brutal attack than the
10:22
Speaker 1: other three victims. She was killed on the same bed
10:24
Speaker 1: along with her best friend, Madison Mogan. News Nation reporter
10:28
Speaker 1: Brian Enton is in Idaho covering the investigation. There's a
10:32
Speaker 1: number of different theories possible since her wounds were more
10:35
Speaker 1: significant than Maddie's, is it possible she was the target? Yes?
10:39
Speaker 1: Or is it possible that that she woke up and
10:41
Speaker 1: was trying to fight back and that that Maddie was
10:44
Speaker 1: the target? Time stories with Nancy Grace straight out to
11:02
Speaker 1: forensic expert found of the Cold Case Research Institute. You
11:05
Speaker 1: can find her at Colcase crimes dot org. Cheryl McCollum,
11:09
Speaker 1: Jump in fancy. It depends to me on where the
11:12
Speaker 1: wounds were. So if the killer concentrated on her face,
11:16
Speaker 1: her neck, her chest, maybe even her breast. That's going
11:20
Speaker 1: to be very telling. So it's not just a matter
11:23
Speaker 1: of she had more stab wounds, but where those stab
11:26
Speaker 1: wounds are located could be very talian of this killer,
11:29
Speaker 1: you know, Stephanie Pogonas Johnny Spice ins digital, I understand
11:32
Speaker 1: all the wounds were in the torso area. Is that
11:34
Speaker 1: correct or no? You know, I'm not necessarily sure about that.
11:38
Speaker 1: It could be correct, but what I do know is
11:40
Speaker 1: that each of the victim were stabbed several times. Now,
11:44
Speaker 1: as we heard, mister Gonstald has explained that his daughter
11:48
Speaker 1: did mention that she was significantly injured here. But each
11:53
Speaker 1: of the victims showed signs not only of several stab wounds,
11:56
Speaker 1: but some of them also showed signs of fighting back.
11:59
Speaker 1: The medical examiner also said that investigators believed the victims
12:03
Speaker 1: were asleep when they were initially attacked. It's unclear though,
12:08
Speaker 1: who woke up and who tried to defend themselves before
12:12
Speaker 1: they were ultimately killed. To you, Ted Williams, joining US
12:15
Speaker 1: former DC police detective now defense attorney, we were told
12:19
Speaker 1: that the stab wounds were in the torso, but as
12:23
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullin pointed out, if let's just hypothesize if Kelly
12:30
Speaker 1: or Maddie's wounds were in the breasts or in any
12:34
Speaker 1: other area that would somehow give a psychological differentiation to
12:38
Speaker 1: their wounds that would be significant. Do you know anything
12:42
Speaker 1: about that, Ted, not a lot. The medical examiner has
12:46
Speaker 1: tried to speak out about Webby work pauld on frand
12:51
Speaker 1: the corn or. She is not a medical doctor. And
12:55
Speaker 1: I was really surprised when she gave that interview right
12:58
Speaker 1: off the bat and started giving all these opinions that
13:01
Speaker 1: I would have thought the police would want to keep
13:02
Speaker 1: close to the vest that I remember it and it's
13:06
Speaker 1: surprised living hell out of me. And you're absolutely right.
13:11
Speaker 1: But the information that was given, and let's just say
13:15
Speaker 1: for the purpose of our discussion here that Kayley was
13:21
Speaker 1: the target. That is where investigators would have to thought
13:27
Speaker 1: really significantly working backwards. But if they fought, if they
13:34
Speaker 1: did anything, or there may be some DNA that they
13:39
Speaker 1: will be able to develop us some physical evidence. If
13:43
Speaker 1: you are stabbing somebody, you have a knife. There's a
13:47
Speaker 1: great deal of blood and your hand. If you're stabbing somebody,
13:51
Speaker 1: you have the knife in your hand, there's always a
13:54
Speaker 1: possibility that you could slip within the blood. And I
13:59
Speaker 1: hate to sound so gory about this, but you can
14:01
Speaker 1: flip into the blood and you can cut yourself with
14:05
Speaker 1: the knife. We know that this was a large knife
14:09
Speaker 1: that was used. From all indications, it appears as though
14:14
Speaker 1: one knife, that's all we've heard about, that was used
14:18
Speaker 1: on four of the victims. So and the only thing
14:22
Speaker 1: I hate is this misinformation about it may have been
14:25
Speaker 1: a military knife but is kind of a knife. All
14:28
Speaker 1: we know is that it was a large knife. It
14:31
Speaker 1: could very well been a butcher knife. Yes, anything that's
14:35
Speaker 1: fix blade. You're absolutely right. Okay, guys, I hope you're
14:38
Speaker 1: sitting down here. He comes Dale Carson, high profile lawyer
14:42
Speaker 1: of Jacksonville, but more importantly for my purposes, former fed
14:47
Speaker 1: with the FBI as an agent, former cop Dale Carson. Okay, Dale,
14:54
Speaker 1: let's have it all right. Look, from my perspective, there
14:57
Speaker 1: are two ways this could have gone down, and I
14:59
Speaker 1: think it's fairly clear from the evidence someone either came
15:03
Speaker 1: in on the second floor or someone came in on
15:07
Speaker 1: the first floor. If the timings are not right, and
15:11
Speaker 1: the police are not letting go with the information about
15:15
Speaker 1: why they know how they know when people returned home. Now,
15:19
Speaker 1: the people on the first floor returned about one am.
15:23
Speaker 1: So did they hear people go up the steps to
15:26
Speaker 1: the second floor? Is that how they know what time?
15:30
Speaker 1: And if that's the take no, no, no, del Carson, no,
15:34
Speaker 1: some of them. One of the girls is on the phone.
15:36
Speaker 1: Wasn't it two fifty two am? So we know the
15:41
Speaker 1: murders were after two fifty two am. And I can
15:44
Speaker 1: guarantee you year and damn tee you that's a technical
15:48
Speaker 1: legal word that if they had heard somebody creeping up
15:52
Speaker 1: and down the stairs, they would have done something. They
15:55
Speaker 1: were asleep and their beds when they were attacked. They
15:57
Speaker 1: didn't hear a thing, not creeping, Okay, walking people on
16:02
Speaker 1: the second floor could have left someone into the property
16:06
Speaker 1: and that person could have been in there waiting for
16:10
Speaker 1: the other people to come to the top floor. Okay, Well,
16:14
Speaker 1: there's a unique theory that they let the killer in. Guys,
16:17
Speaker 1: we are talking about the possibility that one of these
16:21
Speaker 1: girls was the victim. And according to reports, Kelly Gonsalvos
16:29
Speaker 1: had injuries that were different from the other injuries, maybe
16:34
Speaker 1: simply more brutal. Stephanie begonis are you getting any sense
16:38
Speaker 1: of how her injuries were different? Police have even mentioned
16:41
Speaker 1: that the family that they are not even communicating with
16:44
Speaker 1: the family in the sense that the family is getting
16:46
Speaker 1: information elsewhere. Yeah, we know about all the families frustration,
16:50
Speaker 1: and I don't blame them. The family is now convinced
16:54
Speaker 1: they're doing the right thing by hiring a private investigator. No, no, no,
17:01
Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut one eighteen Steve and
17:06
Speaker 1: Christie gone Salvas. Somebody isn't communicating. There's nothing being released.
17:11
Speaker 1: It seems like they're trying to suppress the story. We
17:15
Speaker 1: want to put rewards out there, like, don't do that. Yeah,
17:17
Speaker 1: I get it. Your town doesn't want to have reward
17:19
Speaker 1: posts posted all over when you come and you do
17:22
Speaker 1: your rush. You're not going to get a lot of
17:24
Speaker 1: students if they see those things. But this community is
17:27
Speaker 1: not gonna heal and tell this guy's pulled off the streets.
17:30
Speaker 1: It ain't gonna happen. Think it through, It's not gonna happen.
17:33
Speaker 1: He has to be off the streets. We all are
17:36
Speaker 1: working for the same thing and more from Steve Gonn
17:38
Speaker 1: salveus Listen. We know that this is getting three weeks
17:41
Speaker 1: in and it's starting to get We don't want it
17:44
Speaker 1: to go cold. We're reaching out. I reach out to
17:48
Speaker 1: friends down in California today, that have connections that we're
17:52
Speaker 1: hoping to get, raise some money, to get a reward,
17:55
Speaker 1: to get a private investigator, third party, third party. Why
18:00
Speaker 1: the private round? Do y'all worry that at the end
18:03
Speaker 1: of this week that this case made them cold? We're scared.
18:07
Speaker 1: We don't want to a photo up there with the
18:11
Speaker 1: reward offer and information that kind of sounds like you're
18:15
Speaker 1: trying to like suppress the story. I mean, why do
18:18
Speaker 1: you not need help? But hey, I could be wrong,
18:22
Speaker 1: and your officers. I apologize if I'm wrong. Yeah, I
18:24
Speaker 1: want to please forgive me, Please forgive me. But if
18:28
Speaker 1: but if you don't have the information people do know,
18:31
Speaker 1: if they don't, Okay, joining me right now. Renowned private
18:35
Speaker 1: investigator Robert Crispin, former federal Taskforce with the Department in Justice,
18:41
Speaker 1: also with a d EA in Miami. Never lack of
18:44
Speaker 1: business there, former homicide detective now founder of Crispin Special
18:50
Speaker 1: Investigations at Crispin Investigations dot com. Robert, I think I
18:55
Speaker 1: heard Dale Carson moaning in the background. Groaning, don't it,
19:00
Speaker 1: don't hire hire a PI. But if the family is
19:05
Speaker 1: feeling though, that was Ted Williams groaning. Okay, if the
19:10
Speaker 1: family feels like they got to hire a PI, whose
19:13
Speaker 1: fault is that they're not getting information from the cops.
19:17
Speaker 1: So listen, he's not wrong and saying no, no, no. However,
19:20
Speaker 1: I disagree with both of you. There's a reason to
19:23
Speaker 1: hire an investigator, and there's a post of reasons not
19:26
Speaker 1: to hire an investigator. The reason the family wants to
19:29
Speaker 1: bring in an investigators because they're not getting anything from
19:32
Speaker 1: law enforcement. Okay, that's intentional. And you know, mister Williams
19:36
Speaker 1: will tell you as I'll tell you in a case
19:39
Speaker 1: of this magnitude or during a homicide investigation, you got
19:43
Speaker 1: to shut your mouth. Way too much information has been
19:45
Speaker 1: released on this the method, the types of injuries, the
19:49
Speaker 1: weapon used. So when they do catch somebody, because a
19:52
Speaker 1: lot of that information came from the coroner, not the
19:55
Speaker 1: family did. And that never it never should have happened.
19:58
Speaker 1: It never should have happened. But here's here's a good
20:01
Speaker 1: part about hiring an investigator once that crime scene. The
20:05
Speaker 1: right investigator, someone with experience, and I think mister Williams
20:08
Speaker 1: will tell you this. Once that crime scene has been
20:10
Speaker 1: released and the last law enforcement boot is out the
20:13
Speaker 1: door and it's been turned back over to the owner,
20:16
Speaker 1: the first boots that are going in is a guy
20:18
Speaker 1: like me or a guy like mister Williams. Because crime
20:22
Speaker 1: scenes talk to you. As soon as you step in
20:25
Speaker 1: the door. That crime scene wants to tell you what happened,
20:29
Speaker 1: and it's going to tell you from the appearance of
20:32
Speaker 1: the crime scene, the damage, what's been cut out by
20:35
Speaker 1: law enforcement. Is there, you know, is the mattress gone,
20:38
Speaker 1: Is there a large section of the carpet gone? Are
20:41
Speaker 1: there holes in the wall? It just it tells you
20:44
Speaker 1: how this happened. And systematically, the trained investigator can go
20:49
Speaker 1: through and he can tell you, I think this is
20:52
Speaker 1: how it happened. Did they kill him on the first
20:54
Speaker 1: on the second floor first, or they kill him on
20:56
Speaker 1: the third floor first. Well, we really don't know that,
20:58
Speaker 1: although everyone's telling us that. But you know what's going
21:00
Speaker 1: to tell us. The crime scene is going to tell
21:02
Speaker 1: us because if they kill them on the second floor first,
21:04
Speaker 1: we got blade footprints going upstairs. If we got blade
21:07
Speaker 1: fits coming downstairs, then we know that the top one
21:09
Speaker 1: happened first. So what the point of trying to tell
21:12
Speaker 1: you is The crime scene does tell you who did it?
21:16
Speaker 1: You just need to get in there now. I'd like
21:19
Speaker 1: to know what does law enforcements victim advocate UNI to
21:22
Speaker 1: corral these victims and get them in and talk to them.
21:24
Speaker 1: I don't really like the way you said corral like
21:28
Speaker 1: they're a bunch of livestock to be herded into a fan.
21:33
Speaker 1: I mean to get the family in and talk to
21:36
Speaker 1: them and keep them under wraps and explain to them. Listen,
21:42
Speaker 1: we want to tell you certain things. But if I
21:44
Speaker 1: tell you this and victims emotions run away, and they're
21:49
Speaker 1: not law enforcement, the emotions will run and they talk
21:52
Speaker 1: if a specific fact gets out, because when they catch
21:56
Speaker 1: this person, they're going to get a ton more evidence.
21:59
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum joining me. I disagree with both Ted Williams
22:03
Speaker 1: and Robert Crispin because I'm hearing the anger and the
22:07
Speaker 1: frustration and the hurt and the murder of victims family's voices.
22:12
Speaker 1: When every time I hear Steve comes Elvis, I WinCE
22:16
Speaker 1: and I've been there. I've been the murder of victims family.
22:21
Speaker 1: And when you don't know what's going on. It's terrible.
22:24
Speaker 1: The first and you were with me, Cheryl, the first
22:27
Speaker 1: thing I would do is find the victims family, find
22:32
Speaker 1: them at their home, in their backyard, at their office.
22:35
Speaker 1: I'd wait at their car till they came out, get them,
22:39
Speaker 1: explain to them what's happening. You don't have to give
22:41
Speaker 1: away all of your evidence, but when they have questions,
22:45
Speaker 1: you need to feel them as best as you can.
22:47
Speaker 1: You don't need them having to go and I don't
22:50
Speaker 1: fault the victim's family having to go on national TV
22:54
Speaker 1: to try to get answers. That is not right, Cheryl.
22:58
Speaker 1: There's no excuse and not communicating. They should talk to
23:02
Speaker 1: these families every single day. That should be the first
23:06
Speaker 1: thing they do when they get to their desk. Here's
23:08
Speaker 1: what I've got today. This is what I'm doing. I
23:11
Speaker 1: will call you with any updates. I can give you
23:14
Speaker 1: their desk, Cheryl. When you are dealing with a case
23:18
Speaker 1: like this, you get in your car and you go
23:21
Speaker 1: to them, of course, and see them face to face. Nancy,
23:25
Speaker 1: you're you've got a department of only thirty five people.
23:28
Speaker 1: They have got over two thousand tips. They are so
23:31
Speaker 1: out of their league. They need help. So what I'm
23:35
Speaker 1: saying is, if they get to their desk and they're
23:37
Speaker 1: running through their day and there to do list, the
23:40
Speaker 1: first thing they should do is reach out to that
23:41
Speaker 1: family period period. Wait wait, wait, wait please, I don't
23:46
Speaker 1: mean the interrupted I got you look there. A rabbit
23:50
Speaker 1: is right. There is a difference bent between law enforcement
23:55
Speaker 1: establishment or reply with a family, keeping that reply and
24:01
Speaker 1: their protection of an investigation. Law enforcement do not do, not,
24:08
Speaker 1: under any circumstance, have to tell a family everything that's
24:12
Speaker 1: going on, all most of what's going on in the
24:16
Speaker 1: family inform I don't have a problem with that, But
24:20
Speaker 1: Robert is right, you bring in a private investigator. Why
24:24
Speaker 1: can't both of you be right? Why can't we all
24:28
Speaker 1: agree that this family has been unattended. They're not getting
24:34
Speaker 1: the contact with the cops that they need, and they're
24:36
Speaker 1: having to go on national TV to try to get answers.
24:40
Speaker 1: There is a medium between meeting with the family and
24:44
Speaker 1: spilling the whole case and not meeting with the family
24:47
Speaker 1: at ACTE. What's going on here is you've got from
24:50
Speaker 1: investigators in your Shoholder is right. They're inexperience in this
24:56
Speaker 1: kind of investigation. They haven't had a. I'm a side
25:00
Speaker 1: out there put a last seven years. I know so
25:05
Speaker 1: so now very much inexperience. Okay, you know what you're
25:08
Speaker 1: reminding me. I've ted you and Crispin. You're reminding me
25:12
Speaker 1: of my husband, Karen. Start with me. Renowned psychologists joining
25:16
Speaker 1: inside of New York, Karen starting dot com. That's Karen.
25:18
Speaker 1: When to see Karen. David drives like a ninety five
25:22
Speaker 1: year old grandma. Okay, and he'll be going about literally
25:27
Speaker 1: eighteen miles an hour. I put him on ways to
25:29
Speaker 1: see how slowly he's going. I'm like, can you speed
25:32
Speaker 1: up for Pink's sake before I my head blows off.
25:36
Speaker 1: He goes, well, I don't want to run down those children.
25:38
Speaker 1: I'm like, isn't there a happy medium? Can you go
25:41
Speaker 1: thirty miles an hour and not run over the children
25:44
Speaker 1: on the sidewalk? Is there a middle ground here? And
25:49
Speaker 1: I think that's what we're saying, Karen. You don't have
25:51
Speaker 1: to open up all of your files to the family
25:54
Speaker 1: in order to give them what they need. You need
25:57
Speaker 1: to have empathy to the family. It's really essential. I mean,
26:02
Speaker 1: you know what it's like to be addictive. These people
26:06
Speaker 1: need to be in touch they need to They have
26:10
Speaker 1: to walk, and I get it, they need to walk
26:12
Speaker 1: a very narrow line, but they have to be able
26:15
Speaker 1: to let them know what's going on. If they are
26:18
Speaker 1: inexperience right then they need to have other quarry an.
26:23
Speaker 1: I'm getting some information right now, We've got to address
26:27
Speaker 1: and it's about a stalker. Got a one twenty three
26:30
Speaker 1: our friends at kr em very quickly. Investigators say they
26:33
Speaker 1: looked into an incident in mid October, which is where
26:36
Speaker 1: they believe the stalker claims originated that Kaylee made the
26:39
Speaker 1: friends now. According to police, Kayley was an unidentified local business.
26:43
Speaker 1: Two men were seen inside attempting to pick up women.
26:46
Speaker 1: One of those men appeared to follow Kayley out to
26:49
Speaker 1: her car, but did not make any contact with their
26:51
Speaker 1: according to police. Investigators say both men have been investigated
26:55
Speaker 1: and cleared as suspects and also take a listen to
26:58
Speaker 1: one fourteen our friends at Fox. The fact that no
27:01
Speaker 1: one is going to reveal themselves so far as being
27:04
Speaker 1: potentially the person who was going after it means that
27:06
Speaker 1: maybe there was something that went on some time ago.
27:08
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that it happened that night or a
27:10
Speaker 1: week or two before. But I've seen cases post my
27:13
Speaker 1: back experience where it's been two years when someone has
27:16
Speaker 1: come back and who had been felt disenfranchised or in
27:19
Speaker 1: some way anyway disc and harbored that resentment, harbored that feeling,
27:23
Speaker 1: and it came back in committed committee killing. So it
27:26
Speaker 1: is possible that this is something that that's why maybe
27:29
Speaker 1: more difficult for police to find out who the suspect is.
27:31
Speaker 1: It could be further back in the past and very
27:34
Speaker 1: nuanced and very kind of veiled only in the killer's mind.
27:37
Speaker 1: So Stephanie Pogott is shorting us from fox Ney's digital
27:40
Speaker 1: what can you tell me about an alleged stalker? Well, so,
27:42
Speaker 1: interestingly enough, this is something that Kayley is supposedly even
27:46
Speaker 1: mentioned to her own father that she felt as though
27:49
Speaker 1: she might have had a stalker, or she made some
27:51
Speaker 1: sort of comments about her feeling that she might have
27:54
Speaker 1: had one. Now, this is something that police have questioned
27:57
Speaker 1: many people about. They say until just yesterday, they had
28:02
Speaker 1: not disclosed any additional details. Just yesterday, police said they
28:07
Speaker 1: think they might have learned what Kayley was possibly referring to.
28:13
Speaker 1: The police said in mid October, two men were seen
28:16
Speaker 1: inside a local business in Moscow Apparently one of the
28:19
Speaker 1: men appeared to be following Kayley inside the business, and
28:23
Speaker 1: after she left that business, the mail then stopped stopped
28:28
Speaker 1: following her, and he didn't appear to make any contact
28:30
Speaker 1: with her. But police said that when they did speak
28:33
Speaker 1: to both men, they learned that they were trying to
28:36
Speaker 1: meet women at the business. Police said they were able
28:39
Speaker 1: to corroborate this and they have not found any evidence
28:43
Speaker 1: to suggest that either of the men was involved in
28:46
Speaker 1: these murders so far. Okay, question what business it was?
28:50
Speaker 1: I had heard that it was a local grocery store,
28:52
Speaker 1: but unfortunately I don't have more beyond that at this moment. Okay,
28:55
Speaker 1: how does that factor? Anton Williams, Well, it's another lead
29:01
Speaker 1: that you have to follow up on and you have
29:04
Speaker 1: to rule out Dad today. It's interesting about this falcon.
29:10
Speaker 1: I've always believed that it is not part of this investigation,
29:16
Speaker 1: but it leads. Every lead, every lead has to be
29:19
Speaker 1: followed up on, and this is just another lead that
29:23
Speaker 1: was followed up on the stalking lead, and it appears
29:26
Speaker 1: to be going nowhere. But again, Nan, say what I
29:30
Speaker 1: want to say, and I think I a guess understand,
29:33
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of inexperienced individuals in this investigation.
29:38
Speaker 1: I know the FBI is involved, I know that the
29:42
Speaker 1: Idaho State Police is involved. But we have a lot
29:46
Speaker 1: of the inexperienced people running this investigation, and that is
29:49
Speaker 1: very concerning to be well, what about the idea of
29:52
Speaker 1: the stalker Cheryl McCollum, Because it keeps coming up, it
29:55
Speaker 1: keeps coming up. And here's where it's got some legs
29:57
Speaker 1: for me. Her dad believes it. She stayed, did it
30:00
Speaker 1: to more than one person, and she was only there
30:04
Speaker 1: to show her new friend her car, I mean her
30:07
Speaker 1: friend her new car. She wasn't supposed to be there.
30:10
Speaker 1: And this person that murdered these four people took an
30:13
Speaker 1: extra step to go upstairs. He didn't go to the basement.
30:18
Speaker 1: So it looks to me like everything is pointing to
30:21
Speaker 1: Kaylee Bean the target. And if she made that statement
30:24
Speaker 1: and she sold her other car and put on there
30:26
Speaker 1: that she was moving across the country, she gave some
30:29
Speaker 1: information out so if somebody wanted to stop her from leaving,
30:33
Speaker 1: they could do just that. Time stories with Nancy Grace
30:51
Speaker 1: straight out to Cheryl McCallum, Colcase Researchester to jump in. Cheryl,
30:54
Speaker 1: one thing I haven't heard anybody mentioned is whether or
30:56
Speaker 1: not the killer took souvenirs or a souvenir. Bad thing
31:00
Speaker 1: is when you're doing a victimology, the person that could
31:03
Speaker 1: best help law enforcement here was also murdered. And that's
31:07
Speaker 1: each other's best friend. Getting back to the PI, here's
31:10
Speaker 1: the reason a PI might be really good in this case.
31:13
Speaker 1: Locating witnesses. Sometimes people will speak to a civilian when
31:16
Speaker 1: they will not speak to law enforcement. Locating video and
31:21
Speaker 1: searching social media. A thirty five member department cannot tackle
31:26
Speaker 1: a quadruple homicide by theirselves. You know, I've got some
31:30
Speaker 1: of my guests talking out of both sides of their
31:32
Speaker 1: mouth because they're saying, don't hire a PI, and they're
31:36
Speaker 1: saying there's not enough cops. And I want to follow
31:38
Speaker 1: up with Cheryl. McCollum just said, Cheryl, you remember that
31:41
Speaker 1: big Arson murder. I tried right before I left the
31:45
Speaker 1: DA's office, Goode to Court TV. Oh. Yes, that chase
31:48
Speaker 1: was overwhelming. And then I found an incredible resource. It
31:54
Speaker 1: was the insurance company's private investigator, Cort Guy. I had
32:00
Speaker 1: worked this case just as hard as the Arson investigators,
32:03
Speaker 1: and he had a wealth of information. Then my investigators
32:07
Speaker 1: didn't have, not because they're flat footed or stupid or lazy.
32:12
Speaker 1: He just had additional resources they didn't have. And I
32:16
Speaker 1: got a treasure trove of information from that Arson private
32:21
Speaker 1: investigator for the assurance company. So I say, take all
32:24
Speaker 1: the info you can get. I hear somebody jumping in,
32:28
Speaker 1: Is it Dale or Ted? You don't want the detective
32:31
Speaker 1: private investigators to interfere with an already very very complex case.
32:37
Speaker 1: That's the problem. And we only have thirty five members
32:41
Speaker 1: on a department. You can't devote an individual detective or
32:45
Speaker 1: officer to each of the family. I didn't ask for that.
32:49
Speaker 1: What we're saying, Look right now, we don't have any
32:53
Speaker 1: big suspect, none, none, So that means that it could
32:58
Speaker 1: be someone close to the family. We don't know the
33:01
Speaker 1: answer to those questions. And your point is, well, the
33:04
Speaker 1: simply you gotta wait until the detectives who do have
33:08
Speaker 1: access to all of the information have an opportunity to analyze. Well,
33:12
Speaker 1: you know what, Dan Carson, you can set up in
33:15
Speaker 1: your ivory tower, at your your penthouse suite. You've got
33:21
Speaker 1: their meeting clients in your leather chair, blah blah blah.
33:25
Speaker 1: But these families are suffering. And unless the police speak
33:29
Speaker 1: to them and handle them with kid gloves and feed
33:33
Speaker 1: them enough information that they understand these cases on truck,
33:36
Speaker 1: you're gonna have them hiring pis and spouting information on
33:40
Speaker 1: the airwaves because they don't know what else to do.
33:43
Speaker 1: They got their backs in the corner. Yeah, yeah, I
33:47
Speaker 1: understand the frustration of the family, but the families are
33:52
Speaker 1: not running a criminal investigation. I didn't say they were
33:55
Speaker 1: the m The victims are dead. The victims you're dead,
34:01
Speaker 1: and in order to get justice for them, everybody needs
34:04
Speaker 1: to quiet down and let the police do whatever work
34:08
Speaker 1: they can do. If they interfere with that is just insanity.
34:13
Speaker 1: Bill is right, though Nancy you cannot. But you got
34:17
Speaker 1: to look there are two aspects of this case. That
34:20
Speaker 1: is to catch the killer of killers, and the second
34:24
Speaker 1: aspect is the successful prosecution of the killer killer and
34:29
Speaker 1: what private investigator at this stage could interfere with that process.
34:36
Speaker 1: And also, think about it, the private investigator is not
34:39
Speaker 1: gonna have access kill the evidence. The police are not
34:44
Speaker 1: gonna be talking and given the private investigator information, I
34:48
Speaker 1: do agree with everyone here that the family needs to
34:53
Speaker 1: be kept in the loop as best you can well
34:57
Speaker 1: that is happening. Okay, everybody pipe down, Karen start won't
35:02
Speaker 1: see Karen, it better be profound, go just not have
35:05
Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense. This is a mixed message
35:08
Speaker 1: that they're inexperience, they don't know what they're doing, and
35:12
Speaker 1: yet we shouldn't have more people in trying to help.
35:15
Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense. You got the Houdaho, you
35:21
Speaker 1: have the Otdahole State police involved, you got the FBI.
35:26
Speaker 1: And I said, I don't know why you're screaming there's
35:27
Speaker 1: not enough cops. So there are enough cops. What is
35:31
Speaker 1: the private investigator gonna do it? And do not know?
35:34
Speaker 1: We'll let him figure that out because like I just please, yeah,
35:41
Speaker 1: help me out here, man from me about I can
35:42
Speaker 1: tell you exactly what a private investigator is going to
35:45
Speaker 1: do at this stage. He's going to jeopardize the entire investue.
35:50
Speaker 1: Yeah everything, Yeah, law enforcement has done because now polutely
35:55
Speaker 1: yeahst N will tell you you get one shot at
36:01
Speaker 1: these interviews, one shot and yeah, but there is some
36:05
Speaker 1: intator can do. There is something that they can do,
36:08
Speaker 1: and that's to create the nexus between law enforcement and
36:12
Speaker 1: the family. They can demonstrate to the family here's the
36:16
Speaker 1: things that they are doing, and they don't even have
36:18
Speaker 1: to have the information we as old private investigators. No,
36:22
Speaker 1: certain things are going to transpire, and if you communicate
36:25
Speaker 1: that to the family, then all of them and they're like, oh, Jackie,
36:30
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna have to cut everybody's mid Cheryl McCollum,
36:35
Speaker 1: I just want to point out that on all the
36:38
Speaker 1: cases I prosecuted, I never had someone hire a family
36:43
Speaker 1: victim's family hire a private investigator. Absolutely not, and you
36:47
Speaker 1: know why because they were with me lockstep every bit
36:51
Speaker 1: of the way. And no, I did not give them
36:52
Speaker 1: the whole file. And that thought never even occurred to
36:55
Speaker 1: me to give them the whole file or gonna tell
36:58
Speaker 1: them everything. But if they had asked me, I would
37:01
Speaker 1: try to tell them without jeopardizing the investigation. Or you
37:05
Speaker 1: would simply explain why I can't tell you exactly. That's
37:09
Speaker 1: easily explained. But I'll tell you something, Nancy, again, you
37:14
Speaker 1: are talking about a small department and they are over
37:17
Speaker 1: their head. But I want to point out one more thing,
37:18
Speaker 1: not just private investigators, but law enforcement use seis all
37:22
Speaker 1: the time. They use civilians. And the problem when you
37:25
Speaker 1: bring in the state confidential in four months that's what
37:28
Speaker 1: she's saying. And here's the thing. When you bring in
37:30
Speaker 1: the state police to a place like Moscow, they don't
37:33
Speaker 1: work that area. If this guy's in plain sight, which
37:37
Speaker 1: I believe he is, I believe he's a local. I
37:39
Speaker 1: believe he's right there. They don't know the rhythm of
37:42
Speaker 1: that community. Hey, hey, Cheryl, yes, can you open up
37:45
Speaker 1: everybody's mike? This is important, guys. Number one, the family
37:49
Speaker 1: says that cops are clearing people too quickly. Let's hear it.
37:54
Speaker 1: Cut one five. This is Kelly's dad at Fox News.
37:56
Speaker 1: Alibis just share the alibi. If you're not sharing an
37:59
Speaker 1: alib to me, it tells me that you're not one
38:01
Speaker 1: hundred percent confident that it's gonna stick, or you have
38:05
Speaker 1: somebody who's gonna come forward and say, hey, I don't
38:08
Speaker 1: know what he told you or that person's alibi was,
38:11
Speaker 1: but I have this information. I have something. So if
38:15
Speaker 1: you don't share the alibi, it makes it a little
38:17
Speaker 1: bit harder for us to just let those go. And
38:20
Speaker 1: I've said it before, I don't I don't want to
38:21
Speaker 1: make victims out of just by standards and witnesses. So
38:25
Speaker 1: I just share those things, and that would help. No, no, no,
38:30
Speaker 1: you don't go sharing alibis. No, you do not share alibis.
38:36
Speaker 1: None of these people are actually clear. I agree with
38:39
Speaker 1: that the people that come in, they will continue to
38:45
Speaker 1: be suspects of people up interest, but it's driven by
38:49
Speaker 1: the evidence. You don't go to the family and tell
38:52
Speaker 1: a family they said what they said and he's saying
38:55
Speaker 1: that she said. That is not the way you conduct
38:58
Speaker 1: and investigate you. I gotta agree with you on that,
39:00
Speaker 1: Ted William, Stephanie Pagonis. I was struck by a photo
39:05
Speaker 1: that my producer where Sydney they're Sydney, showed me the
39:09
Speaker 1: other day. It's a picture of Ethan, actually the victim Ethan,
39:14
Speaker 1: and he is sitting Ethan Shapen, and he's sitting in
39:17
Speaker 1: the Sigma Kaye house. And it's not just him, but
39:20
Speaker 1: he's sitting in behind him as a window beside him,
39:23
Speaker 1: and right through the window you can look directly into
39:27
Speaker 1: the murder house. I don't think people understand that you
39:30
Speaker 1: can look right into the girl's windows from the Sigma
39:34
Speaker 1: Kaye House. Not only can you see it directly from there, Nancy,
39:38
Speaker 1: but students frequently even walk this path. They will walk
39:42
Speaker 1: from an area behind the crime scene over to an
39:47
Speaker 1: area near the fraternity house. And I believe it's something
39:51
Speaker 1: students frequently do because I've been told from students there
39:54
Speaker 1: that it's called a cut, Yes, shortcut exactly. And you
39:58
Speaker 1: can say when there's not any snow, where the grass
40:01
Speaker 1: is just dead, there's no grass there because people take
40:04
Speaker 1: the cut so many times, highly highly significant, Crispin, Why
40:10
Speaker 1: is it so important? I mean, I've often learned that
40:14
Speaker 1: killers covet what they see. And you could see these
40:18
Speaker 1: girls right through their slide last door. I mean, listen,
40:21
Speaker 1: he didn't go inside there wondering if the blinds were closed.
40:25
Speaker 1: You know, he just went in there on a rage
40:26
Speaker 1: and did what he did. And when he left, I
40:28
Speaker 1: guarantee it, he took a lot of evidence with him
40:31
Speaker 1: and he left a lot of evidence. He left his fingerprints.
40:34
Speaker 1: I guarantee you. He left his blood, he left his footprints,
40:37
Speaker 1: he left a fingerprint, a palmprint, he left something. Every
40:41
Speaker 1: criminal who commits a homicide leaves something or take something,
40:45
Speaker 1: agree or disagree, del Carson. Look, there's no question that
40:49
Speaker 1: when two crime scene, a bad criminal interfaces with a
40:54
Speaker 1: crime scene, they leave something, they take something away. But
40:58
Speaker 1: that's boned away. You've just pointed out. And what Cheryl's
41:02
Speaker 1: pointed out is that those open windows allow an assailant
41:07
Speaker 1: to watch them over time. And this assailant may have
41:10
Speaker 1: known that Taylor was leaving, so he wouldn't have another
41:13
Speaker 1: opportunity to interface with her, and it probably really frustrated him.
41:18
Speaker 1: And today you can use optics to enhance the view.
41:22
Speaker 1: So I would be curious to anybody have optics that
41:25
Speaker 1: are sufficient to magnify those images and store those images,
41:30
Speaker 1: which is what serial perpetrators do and sex offenders. Okay, Cheryl, Well,
41:35
Speaker 1: I would break this down this way. You've got one
41:38
Speaker 1: house that's a crime scene, two bedrooms that are crime scenes,
41:43
Speaker 1: and then four bodies that are crime scenes. And that's
41:47
Speaker 1: how I would have worked this thing. So you work
41:49
Speaker 1: your way out and end to each individual person. There
41:53
Speaker 1: is no way it is not going to be clear
41:55
Speaker 1: who was killed at first. I would have swabbed every
41:59
Speaker 1: stab wom you would know, just like Jeffrey McDonald. If
42:02
Speaker 1: you've got different you know blood types. That knife is
42:05
Speaker 1: going to go from victim one to victim two. That
42:07
Speaker 1: means victim two's got victim one and victim two's blood,
42:10
Speaker 1: victim three would have victim one, victim two, victim three
42:13
Speaker 1: blood and etc. They're going to know they're going to
42:16
Speaker 1: be able to piece this together. We've had a month
42:19
Speaker 1: and we've got to give them a little more time.
42:21
Speaker 1: This is a ton of information to go through when
42:24
Speaker 1: you start talking about videotapes and victimology, and the fraternities
42:29
Speaker 1: and sororities and classes and where they worked, and their
42:31
Speaker 1: families and their exes. This is a ton to go through.
42:35
Speaker 1: Just social media would be somebody's full time job on
42:38
Speaker 1: this thing. Karen Start. I think that it's really important
42:42
Speaker 1: if we keep saying to have those family in touch
42:46
Speaker 1: with and know that it's being worked done, to find
42:50
Speaker 1: a way to communicate with them, because it does take time.
42:53
Speaker 1: Sharaoh's right, and they need to know that this is
42:57
Speaker 1: something that's important, really importance. Like you said, Nancy ched
43:01
Speaker 1: Williams's final thought, I agree with both of your guests
43:06
Speaker 1: that we have to continue to look at this in
43:09
Speaker 1: a broad perspective. You've got to keep their parents engage.
43:13
Speaker 1: There is always a possibility that the parents know something
43:18
Speaker 1: or nugget about the killer. I still believe that the
43:23
Speaker 1: killer had been killer. Should we say have been in
43:27
Speaker 1: that house before. I don't think this was the first time,
43:31
Speaker 1: the first rodeo in that house. And when I say rodeo,
43:34
Speaker 1: I'm not being I'm very over mind for that four
43:39
Speaker 1: college students died in that home. Unfortunately, we wait as
43:44
Speaker 1: justice unfoles. Nancy Grace Crown's story sunning Off, good Bye Friend,