Latest / Silver FM 100.6 / Your perfectionism isn't a problem -- if you know how to use it

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Your perfectionism isn't a problem -- if you know how to use it · Silver FM 100.6

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: This week on Up First the Midterms and the Middle East,
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• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Would you call yourself a perfectionist?
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: Eh? It depends what we're talking about. You know, it
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: takes me a thousand years to write things, and I
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: don't ever want to show you my car. My car
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  Speaker 3: is a hazard.
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  Speaker 2: Oh that's funny, So like opposite extremes.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it depends. It depends, is the answer. What
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  Speaker 3: about you?
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  Speaker 2: No, I definitely feel like I am one, have always
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: been one, and I'm trying to get better at that,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: which is kind of funny, right, because I'm even a perfectionist.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: About being a perfectionist.
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  Speaker 3: You're trying to get better at it.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like there's something wrong with it. People talk
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: about perfectionism like it's a character flaw or something you
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: need to be cured of. And I guess I've taken
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: that on myself. I've absorbed that idea. You feel like
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  Speaker 2: it's a bad thing.
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  Speaker 4: Hmm.
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  Speaker 3: I think when you hear the word perfectionists, there's like
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  Speaker 3: this one image that pops into your head, right, like
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  Speaker 3: maybe someone who likes to get things done in a
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  Speaker 3: certain way or needs everything to be just so. But
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  Speaker 3: what I learned reporting this episode is that perfectionism doesn't
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  Speaker 3: have to be a negative trait and it's something that
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  Speaker 3: you can hartist.
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  Speaker 5: See.
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  Speaker 2: I like that. That makes me feel better about myself.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: It makes me feel better too.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: You're listening to Life Kit. I'm Mariel Sagara and I'm
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: talking with Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle, who interviewed psychotherapist
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: and author Catherine Morgan Schaeffler in twenty twenty three. She
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: wrote a book called The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control,
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  Speaker 2: A Path to Peace and Power.
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  Speaker 3: So she wrote this book after spending years in private
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  Speaker 3: practice on Wall Street, which is a location that attracts
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  Speaker 3: a lot of high power, high achieving women with careers
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: and things like big law and finance. So many of
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  Speaker 3: those clients, perhaps unsurprisingly, are perfectionists, right, Yeah, And what
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  Speaker 3: she found through that work is that there are actually
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  Speaker 3: five different types of perfectionists.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. When I hear that, I immediately want to take
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  Speaker 2: a quiz which type I am? I'm like, which spice
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: girl are you? You know which spice girl are you?
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  Speaker 2: I think that I always wanted to be Jerry, but
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: I was actually baby and now as a younger Lass,
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  Speaker 2: and now I'm sporty.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, you were a baby son and a Jerry.
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  Speaker 2: Mood, Yes, sporty rising.
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  Speaker 3: I guess we can move on, but I want to.
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  Speaker 3: I want to unpack that someday.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to. We need to.
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  Speaker 3: So perfectionists can be Type A right, like intense and
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  Speaker 3: rigid and meticulous. But they can also be messy or
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  Speaker 3: forgetful or lais fait. They can like procrastinate or up
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  Speaker 3: and quit whole projects entirely. But what all these different
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  Speaker 3: kinds of personalities have in common is potential. So perfectionists
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  Speaker 3: see how the world around them can be better. And
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  Speaker 3: that's why perfectionism, when used in a healthy way, can
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  Speaker 3: be a really powerful force for change, a sort of superpower.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely well.
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  Speaker 2: On this episode of Life, kit Andy is going to
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  Speaker 2: talk to Catherine about all the different ways perfectionism can
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  Speaker 2: show up and how we can harness it.
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  Speaker 3: Catherine. In the book, you say, a lot of messaging
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  Speaker 3: around perfectionism is gendered. Let's start there.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, well, you know, I think language really helps control
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  Speaker 4: the way that we think about whether something is good
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  Speaker 4: or bad, and in turn, whether we are good or bad.
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  Speaker 4: And it kind of has this regulatory function where it
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  Speaker 4: teaches us like how to be more of what or
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: quote unquote supposed to be in the same way that
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  Speaker 4: the word bossy, for example, regulates authoritative qualities and girls
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  Speaker 4: and women and why there's no you know, there's no
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  Speaker 4: male version for the word bossy. That's kind of what
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  Speaker 4: perfectionism is turning into. And so I wanted to write
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  Speaker 4: this book to nip that in the bud and just
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  Speaker 4: to say before this becomes, you know, something that floats
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  Speaker 4: around for the next five or ten years without us
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  Speaker 4: realizing what we're doing, which is quelling the ambition and
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  Speaker 4: expressions of power in women by pathologizing perfectionism ad nauseum
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  Speaker 4: and then telling women to find balance, which is a
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  Speaker 4: directive that is given to women so much all over
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  Speaker 4: the place, in advertising and food and podcasts and mommy
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  Speaker 4: blogs just everywhere.
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  Speaker 3: Catherine what's wrong with the messaging about just finding balance.
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  Speaker 4: Well, balance in its original definition of energetic equilibrium is healthy.
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  Speaker 4: But balance, as it has come to mean now is
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  Speaker 4: just being good at being busy. To say that a
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  Speaker 4: woman is balanced is not to say that she's hit
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  Speaker 4: her sweet spot of energetic equilibrium. It is to say
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  Speaker 4: that she can juggle so many tasks and give her
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  Speaker 4: another thing and she won't drop the ball, look at
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  Speaker 4: her go And that has nothing to do with health.
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  Speaker 4: And what kind of balance we're offering to women is elusive.
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  Speaker 4: It never comes, and we don't notice that it's not
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  Speaker 4: here and that it's not real because we're too busy
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  Speaker 4: blaming ourselves that it's not here yet, because we're constantly
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  Speaker 4: getting the message of like, if you just had an instapot,
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  Speaker 4: you could be balanced. If you just had this app
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  Speaker 4: you could be balanced. If you just woke up one
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  Speaker 4: hour earlier, you could be balanced. And I think perfectionists
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  Speaker 4: are people who are not balanced and who are constantly told,
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  Speaker 4: you know, slow down, you're doing too much. You need
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  Speaker 4: to be balanced, as if we are, you know, as
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  Speaker 4: if balance means health, when it doesn't anymore.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, just find balance, that's all you need to
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  Speaker 3: do to find wealth. Take away one. Perfectionism isn't a
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  Speaker 3: bad word or a slight It's a neutral quality, a
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  Speaker 3: tool that, when used correctly, can be powerful.
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  Speaker 4: So I think of perfectionism as a natural human impulse,
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  Speaker 4: one that is healthy, and perfectionists, the way I define
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  Speaker 4: and understand the term, are people who more often than
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  Speaker 4: not see the gap between the reality and the ideal
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  Speaker 4: and long to bridge the gap, and not only long
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  Speaker 4: to bridge that gap, but feel actively compelled to do so.
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  Speaker 4: And how you pursue the ideal and why you pursue
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  Speaker 4: the ideal, those are the factors that determine whether your
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  Speaker 4: perfectionism is healthy or not. If we go to the
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  Speaker 4: how are you pursuing the ideal in a way that
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  Speaker 4: hurts you or exploits or hurts other people around you?
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  Speaker 4: And if we go to the why are you pursuing
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  Speaker 4: the ideal? Because you think achieving you know, one goal
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  Speaker 4: after the next is going to certify your belonging into
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  Speaker 4: some group or some sense of self worth or some
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  Speaker 4: kind of external validation. And there are healthy reasons to
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  Speaker 4: pursue the ideal. And I think it's actually, you know,
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  Speaker 4: one of the forces that make the world go around.
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  Speaker 3: Next up, take away two. People chase their version of
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  Speaker 3: perfect in a lot of different ways. There's nothing wrong
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  Speaker 3: with longing to bridge the gap between your reality and
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  Speaker 3: your ideal, but be wary of how and why you
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  Speaker 3: pursue perfect because there are pros and cons for every
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  Speaker 3: type of perfectionist.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, so the classic perfectionist is what comes to mind
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  Speaker 4: when we all think about the perfectionist. So this is
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  Speaker 4: somebody who is highly organized, buttoned up, and they are
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  Speaker 4: going to do what they said they're going to do
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  Speaker 4: when they said they would do it in the way
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  Speaker 4: that they said that they would do it. And each
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  Speaker 4: type of perfectionist has pros and cons. And the pros
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  Speaker 4: of classic perfectionists is that they're highly reliable and they
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  Speaker 4: add structure to any environment they enter. The cons are
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  Speaker 4: that they can sometimes not be as spontaneous or welcome collaboration,
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  Speaker 4: and those are qualities which tend to engender connection.
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  Speaker 3: And so.
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  Speaker 4: Being with a classic perfectionist, whether it's in a family
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  Speaker 4: system or a work system, can sometimes end up feeling
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  Speaker 4: more transactional, and this hurts both the people around the
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  Speaker 4: perfectionist and the perfectionists themselves. Because classic perfectionists can tend
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  Speaker 4: to feel undervalued for all.
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  Speaker 3: That they do.
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  Speaker 4: Then there's the procrastinator perfectionist, and the procrastinator perfectionist waits
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  Speaker 4: for the conditions to be perfect before they start, and
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  Speaker 4: of course that never happens. So procrastinator perfectionists tend to ruminate,
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  Speaker 4: and that's part of the negative qualities of this type.
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  Speaker 4: And on the positive side, they can prepare so well.
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  Speaker 4: They can see things from a three hundred and sixty
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  Speaker 4: degree angle, they can really understand all the different legs
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  Speaker 4: of decisions, and they are not impulsive, which can be
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  Speaker 4: a real asset. But of course they have real challenges
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  Speaker 4: around getting projects off the ground because they just encounter
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  Speaker 4: so much anxiety around beginnings.
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  Speaker 3: What about messy perfectionists.
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  Speaker 4: The messy perfectionist is in love with beginnings. They can
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  Speaker 4: start anything effortlessly, just breeze through all the anxiety that
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: a procrastinated perfectionists might. But the problem with the messy
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  Speaker 4: perfectionists is that when they hit the middle of a
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: process and the tedium that is involved in staying committed
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  Speaker 4: to goals and carrying out those goals, they can kind
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  Speaker 4: of lose interest and lose energy because the middle isn't perfect.
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  Speaker 4: It doesn't match the perfect romanticized energy around starting. And
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  Speaker 4: I want to make a side note to say that
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  Speaker 4: all of these types of perfectionists can be expressed in
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  Speaker 4: lots of different contexts. So you can be a messy
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  Speaker 4: perfectionist when it comes to dating and love, going on
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  Speaker 4: the first date, love the second date, and then the
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: third date you're like, this person is true really loudly,
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: and I don't like this, and I don't know where
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: this conversation is going, and this and that and whatever.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, how about intense perfectionists. This is the perfectionist.
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  Speaker 4: That's kind of I think publicly we think of someone
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  Speaker 4: like Steve Jobs or Gordon Ramsey on a win tour
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  Speaker 4: as intense perfectionists. They have razor sharp focus. They are
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: really great at generating outcomes. Sometimes they can prize the
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: outcomes so much that they lose the sense of team building,
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: for example, or relationship building in the process, and they
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: get the outcome at the great expense and opportunity cost
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: of everyone around them, sort of satisfaction and sometimes even
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: you know, level of comfort or safety depending on whether
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: they're having outbursts or not.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, and then finally Parisian perfection.
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  Speaker 4: So the Parisian perfectionists. The easiest way to describe it
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: is that they want to be perfectly liked, and that
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: is how this perfectionism manifests on a surface level. But
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: on a deeper level, it's about wanting perfect connection, wanting
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: perfect connection to themselves, to their community, to their partners.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: Maladaptively expressed Parisian perfectionism looks like people pleasing at the
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: expense of sacrificing one's own sense of identity and pleasure.
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: But on the pro side, Parisian perfectionists are genuinely warm
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: people who focus on inclusion, collaborate well, love working with others,
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: and they're effortlessly inviting all of those things in.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: Think you know what kind of perfectionist you are. We'll
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: get into what to do next after the break.
• 12:56
  Speaker 6: Hey, you know that nagging voice in your head, the
• 12:59
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• 14:33
  Speaker 3: Well, Catherine, your book taught me that I am mostly
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: a Parisian perfectionist, and I feel both seen and attacked
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: by this information. How is knowing your category helpful? Yeah,
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: that's such a great question.
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  Speaker 4: I offer all of these categorizations as perspectives and not
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: the truth. I really offer these as starting places to
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  Speaker 4: begin to understand patterns and to say, what do I
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: like about this pattern? What do I want to continue
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  Speaker 4: about that? How does this show up again in all
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: of these different ways with my parenting, with my friendships,
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: with dating, with work, with my family, and my own
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: relationship to myself? And it's just a starting place to
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: begin to ask and answer those questions.
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  Speaker 3: Take Away three Understanding your particular brand of perfectionism can
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: help you better see yourself and use that information to
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  Speaker 3: your advantage. For example, Catherine, you have a lot of
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: tools in the book about ways to work with and
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: reframe our type of perfectionism. One of those was understanding
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: the difference between explaining and expressing something. Could you walk
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: us through that idea?
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: So Explaining is saying what's happening, right, so I am
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: leaving work early. Expressing is saying what's happening and what
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: you feel about what is happening. I am leaving work
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: early because I am feeling stressed. And when you only explain,
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: you know, I need this by tomorrow, and you don't
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: express I need this by tomorrow because I had a
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: conversation with the client today and I'm starting to feel
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: anxious about whether they're going.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: To back out.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: When you only explain, it emphasizes this transactional no team,
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: no collaboration, no sense of actually knowing or connecting to
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: the person. All that matters is the outcome and we
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: just need to get it done. And it really makes
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: people around you feel disconnected, and it can make you
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: feel disconnected to yourself. And if you only, on the
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: other hand, express, which is what a lot of messy
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: perfectionists and Parisian perfectionists tend to over index on, then
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: you're talking a lot about how you feel and what
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: the experience of being you is like, but you're not
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: actually asserting your wants or needs. And so you might
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: say I'm feeling really burnt out. Okay, Well, why don't
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: you explain that you're feeling really burnt out because you
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: have been covering for someone who's been sick for three
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: weeks and you can no longer do that. You've realized
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: that that's not tenable, right, And so I think that
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: part of our communication patterns in some of these personality
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: types can pop up, and they're not necessarily bad. We
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: don't need to subtract anything. We don't need to get
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: rid of parts of who you are. We just need
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: to add to help you connect more with yourself and others,
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: and help you understand yourself and help others understand you
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: better too.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: And finally take away four to better know when your
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: perfectionism't as healthy or getting away from you. Learn the
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: difference between control the power.
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: So control and power, like lust and love, look very similar,
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: they're not the same thing. Control is about manipulating. Power
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: is about influencing. Control is myopic.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: You have to.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: Plan everything one step at a time because what you
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: do next depends on all the factors that you are
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: aware of and have information for. Whereas power is really visionary.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: It allows you to take the luxury of taking great
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: leaps of faith and being able to say no matter
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: what happens with the outcome, I know who I am
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: and what's important to me, and I trust myself that
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: I'll understand what to do next. Whereas control is more frantic.
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: It has a desperate energy and an attendant anxiety that
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: other people around you can feel. And when we feel powerless,
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: we double down on superfer control and it backfires every time.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: In the moment, it feels like being controlling is the
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: responsible thing to do. When you can't find your own power.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: What do we gain when we see control?
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: So I think one of the reasons why people feel
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: locked out of joy is because they haven't forgiven themselves
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: for past versions of themselves that did or did not
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: do something. And if you don't forgive yourself, you don't
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: trust yourself. And if you can't trust yourself, you can't
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: give yourself license to have power. You micro manage yourself,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: you try to control yourself. It's just like a boss
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: who doesn't trust their employee. They're going to be checking
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: in every second on what they do, and they meet
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: that person with suspicion instead of confidence. When you have
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: that kind of relationship with yourself, you just cannot bring
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: your full self to the table. You can't relax, and
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: if you don't trust yourself, you're trying to move through
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: life memorizing the right thing to do instead of trusting
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: yourself and the way that you feel and whether on
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: the most basic level you feel good or not. Just
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: being around this person make me feel good, Just being
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: at this job make me feel good. You don't trust
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: yourself to do that, and so you just end up
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: in your head. You're thinking, you're making pros and cons
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: lists all day, You're denying your instincts, any say in
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: the matter, and you just can't, in my opinion, think
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: yourself through your life. You have to be open, and
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: to be open, you have to be able to say
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: I don't know what is coming next. There is some
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: degree of surrender required for that. You cannot be in
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: surrender and in control at the same time.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Catherine, thank you so much for talking with me today.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: Thank you. This has been such a pleasure to recap.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Take Away one, Perfectionism is powerful. You just have to
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: learn to use it to your advantage. Take Away two.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: There are a lot of different ways to reach for perfection.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: There's nothing wrong with longing to bridge the gap between
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: your reality and your ideal, but be wary of how
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: and why you pursue perfection. Building on that, takeaway three,
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: understanding your particular brand of perfectionism can help you better
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: see yourself and work towards your strengths. Ask yourself, are
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: you hurting or helping the people around you in pursuit
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: of your ideals? Does this action serve to connect or
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: distance you from your values? Are you pursuing this ideal
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: for the right reasons, or are you seeking some kind
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: of art arbitrary external validation. Finally, pick away four, seek power,
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: not control. Remember, as Catherine says, you are perfect as is,
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: meaning you are complete and therefore worthy of rest and
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: joy exactly as you are in this current moment. Don't
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: wait for that mythical perfect balance or to achieve perfect personhood.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: Lean into your strengths and start trusting your own instincts
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: today right now. You got this.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: That was reporter Andy Tagle talking to author Katherine Morgan
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Schaffler before we go. If you have a moment I
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: was wondering, would you rate and review Life Kit in
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: your podcast app Tell us a favorite tip that you've learned,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: or what kind.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Of episodes you'd like the best.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: We love hearing from you. This episode of Life Kit
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: was produced by Claire Marie Schneider with help from Kayla Lattimore.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Our digital editor is Malika Greeb, and our visuals editor
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: is c j Rikolon. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer. Our production team
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: also includes Margaret Serino and Sylvia Douglas. Engineering support comes
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: from Jimmy Keeley. Special thanks to Darius Cook. I'm Mariel Sagara.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.
• 23:19
  Speaker 10: This week on Shortwave, you are what you eat. May
• 23:22
  Speaker 10: not be a phrase you associate with your mental health, but.
• 23:26
  Speaker 11: One in three people have in some resistance in our country,
• 23:30
  Speaker 11: and if you have in some resistance, you are double
• 23:34
  Speaker 11: the likelihood of developing major depression.
• 23:36
  Speaker 10: We explore the link between your body and your brain.
• 23:39
  Speaker 10: Listen on Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR.
• 23:43
  Speaker 8: This is Tanya Mosley, co host of Fresh Air. Don't
• 23:46
  Speaker 8: miss my interview with Coleman Domingo. We talk about euphoria,
• 23:50
  Speaker 8: filling in for Jimmy Kimmel and doing comedy with comedy
• 23:54
  Speaker 8: masters like Tina Fey.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: They're like mad scientists. They almost look at the math
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: of it.
• 23:58
  Speaker 8: Find Fresh Air on the NPR app or wherever you
• 24:01
  Speaker 8: listen to podcasts.