Latest / C3 Connecting, Coaches, Cognition / Coaching for Every Learner: Joy De Los Santos

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Coaching for Every Learner: Joy De Los Santos · C3 Connecting, Coaches, Cognition

• 0:39
  Welcome back to another episode of C3. I'm Courtney Groskin and I'm here with Sandy Heiser.
• 0:46
  Sandy, what's new in your world?
• 0:49
  Oh, you know what? We, I mean, you just facilitated day five of Cognitive Coaching
• 0:55
  Foundation seminar. That was fun.
• 0:57
  It was a blast. I mean, they're long days, but just the content is so good.
• 1:03
  I know. It's, it's, even though it is a full Saturday, it really is a bucket filler those days.
• 1:09
  Yeah, and I'll have to brag a little. We've got a cohort of,
• 1:13
  what, 35 people this time, and they are so dedicated.
• 1:17
  Like, we go for a quick 45-minute lunch, and they come back,
• 1:21
  and they have, like, more energy than they did in the morning because they're
• 1:24
  just so excited to learn.
• 1:25
  Yeah, they really do. They're a good group. We're very fortunate. it.
• 1:30
  And our model this week was a planning conversation. And it was just so cool
• 1:36
  to watch his shifts and his beamers that he had and just diving in and seeing
• 1:42
  where that coaching conversation can move someone and shift their thinking.
• 1:46
  Well, what I loved about the shift that he had when he had that conversation was,
• 1:52
  When she asked him, where are you now compared to when we started?
• 1:56
  And he said, his first words, I think, were, I feel better. And what more could you want?
• 2:04
  Exactly. You felt more empowered. And what was it, like a 20-minute conversation?
• 2:08
  And he leaves feeling empowered.
• 2:10
  It's just like, there's so much power in a coaching conversation.
• 2:15
  Agreed. Today, we have Joy De Los Santos joining us on C3.
• 2:20
  Joy has spent over 20 years in special education, teaching students from early
• 2:23
  childhood through high school in both district and cooperative settings.
• 2:28
  She now co-leads an instructional coaching team that supports classrooms across
• 2:32
  nine districts, helping educators strengthen inclusive and supportive practices
• 2:36
  for students with disabilities.
• 2:38
  Joy holds a degree from the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign,
• 2:43
  and a governor, State University, and Concordia University of Chicago.
• 2:47
  She lives in Illinois with her husband, daughter, and their pet s'mores,
• 2:51
  Tina and Hammy. Welcome, Joy.
• 2:53
  Hi, Joy. Welcome to C3. We're so glad you could join us today.
• 2:57
  Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah. Can you share with us and our listeners what
• 3:00
  inspired you to become a special education coach and what that journey has looked like for you?
• 3:06
  Yeah, of course. I have been in public education for 21 years now.
• 3:11
  All of that has been in the special ed realm.
• 3:15
  But for the past seven years, I've been in administration and it kind of came
• 3:21
  up, you know, we didn't have coaches when I was coming through.
• 3:25
  That just wasn't a thing. And when it did start coming through,
• 3:28
  it was more content based.
• 3:30
  So there are a lot like math coaches, reading coaches, things like that.
• 3:32
  There really wasn't anything for those of us who kind of had to teach all of the content.
• 3:38
  And so when I was an administrator, one of my, I think...
• 3:42
  First tasks kind of in the role I am now is my director had come to us and we
• 3:46
  were talking about the high turnover rate, especially with brand new teachers
• 3:51
  and saying, how can we help support these teachers?
• 3:54
  We were also seeing a rapid increase. So I work for a special education cooperative,
• 3:59
  so districts can refer students to us if their needs are too great.
• 4:04
  And we were seeing a really high increase in number of students being referred.
• 4:09
  And so we said, not only do we want to support our teachers,
• 4:12
  but we also want to support our teachers in supporting our students.
• 4:15
  So that as much as possible, we want to keep our students in district with their
• 4:19
  gen ed peers, you know, as much as we possibly can. So we were looking at different ways to do that.
• 4:24
  And we came across Jim Knight's work, and that kind of started the whole ball rolling.
• 4:30
  So I started primarily just as the admin, getting everything set up.
• 4:36
  Then we added another administrator to the team.
• 4:39
  And we did, we had Amy Musante come in from ICG and her and I connected and
• 4:48
  it kind of just started the ball rolling from there.
• 4:50
  I've done, most of my work has been more on the admin side, but now that we've
• 4:55
  established our team and we were really, as administrators, we were really focused
• 4:59
  on supporting our coaches and making sure that they had what they needed and
• 5:03
  figuring out, like, how do we do this?
• 5:05
  And then, you know, now that we've kind of feel pretty solid in that,
• 5:09
  we are starting to open up some new things where I am getting more opportunities
• 5:14
  to be on the ground in the classroom coaching, which I'm super excited about as well.
• 5:19
  So we're all coaches at heart, no matter what our title may be.
• 5:23
  If we're using Jim's work, and I heard you talk about support.
• 5:27
  So no matter what the role is, we know coaching is at the heart and that often
• 5:32
  is seen then throughout the work.
• 5:34
  Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I love that you're back in classrooms,
• 5:38
  too. That's always fun. Yes, yes.
• 5:42
  It's been a while since I've been able to be in the classrooms for any significant amount of time.
• 5:48
  So I'm really excited to be back in the classrooms. And we're doing some leadership coaching, too.
• 5:53
  So we're going to be working with leaders and helping new leaders get their
• 6:00
  feet on the ground. So, yeah. Love that.
• 6:03
  Okay, well, for teachers who feel overwhelmed by IEP requirements,
• 6:08
  kind of what we were chatting about before we recorded, or supporting diverse
• 6:12
  learners, what's one strategy you always recommend that has a big impact?
• 6:19
  I mean, oh, my gosh, there's so much within the world of special education. It's such a broad range.
• 6:28
  So within one class, you can have this huge range of needs, and it's so overwhelming,
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  especially for brand new teachers, you know, or even people just new to special
• 6:37
  ed, where maybe I've been teaching before, but, you know, I haven't really had
• 6:41
  to worry about the IEPs and the data collection and all that extra stuff. Yeah.
• 6:46
  So my biggest thing, the thing I like to go to the most when I am working with
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  people who are feeling overwhelmed is let's find the thing that's going to give
• 6:56
  us the most bang for our buck.
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  We look for strategies that are going to be able to support multiple students
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  in multiple situations and multiple contexts with, you know,
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  minimal, not minimal amount of work, but, you know, in the long run, minimal amount of work.
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  So it's front-loading some of that work, looking for things that can be more universally applied.
• 7:18
  So a lot of times we'll talk to teachers and come up with a strategy and say,
• 7:23
  hey, but, you know, this isn't just for this kid.
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  You know, it will help this kid for sure, but is it going to hurt anyone in
• 7:29
  the class to have this available to them? And a lot of times we can come up
• 7:35
  with something that then allows us to lighten the load.
• 7:40
  So that's kind of my go-to thing is like, let's look for the thing that can
• 7:43
  help in the most areas so that we're not having to do each individual kind of
• 7:49
  accommodation or modification and things like that.
• 7:53
  Yeah, because so many of those strategies are good for all kids.
• 7:56
  I mean, so many of them are just really good teaching practices.
• 8:00
  Yeah, for sure. I would say with the just kind of it's become more apparent
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  post-COVID, but there's a lot of strategies that are coming out that,
• 8:08
  you know, those of us in the world of special ed are looking at and say,
• 8:10
  hey, that's what we've been doing for years.
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  So, yeah, good instruction is good instruction. You know, good strategies are good strategies.
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  So let's find the ones that are going to help the most kids with the least amount of effort.
• 8:23
  Timeless. Good instruction is timeless. Yes.
• 8:27
  And I love how you highlighted of taking, reducing the load.
• 8:31
  So I always talk about what's one thing we could de-implement if we're adding this in.
• 8:36
  Is there something else that can kind of go away or maybe with this in place,
• 8:39
  will that help lighten the load somewhere else?
• 8:43
  Yeah, for sure. I mean, nobody has extra time. So if we're saying yes to this, what can we say no to?
• 8:49
  Or what can we say yes to that will allow some of these other things to kind of float away?
• 8:54
  Yeah, for sure. Can you give us some insight into how you help your teams work
• 9:00
  together effectively, especially when there's different perspectives on student
• 9:04
  needs? There's such a spectrum of needs.
• 9:07
  Yeah. And everyone has, you know, their own insight and their own opinions and things like that.
• 9:12
  So our big thing is we come back to the data.
• 9:16
  So let's look at the data. Data is impersonal.
• 9:18
  I say people can't be mad at a piece of paper. So, you know,
• 9:22
  if we've got the data that can show us the why behind why,
• 9:27
  maybe why something is happening or why a student is struggling in a certain
• 9:30
  area, if we have the data, we can look at that and that gives us a more neutral
• 9:34
  ground to start from as opposed to kind of,
• 9:40
  I heard we worked with somebody who called it IJK data that I just know.
• 9:46
  You know, I just know the student is struggling in this. I just know it's for
• 9:49
  this reason. I just know.
• 9:50
  And that can start to get really personal and we can start to have some conflicts
• 9:53
  there because we get really emotionally invested in that.
• 9:57
  So take it back to the data. And if we don't have the data, all right,
• 10:00
  let's talk about what do we need.
• 10:01
  And I find a lot of times when we take it back to that, we're able to find a more common ground.
• 10:07
  And, I mean, a lot of teaching and a lot of instructional strategies and things, we have to try stuff.
• 10:13
  So, you know, even having the teams say, hey, maybe we don't all agree that
• 10:17
  this is the best strategy, but it's a place to start.
• 10:21
  And it will give us some information, even if the information it gives us is,
• 10:26
  hey, this was a strategy that doesn't work.
• 10:28
  That's still information. So, but I really feel like bringing it back to the
• 10:32
  data helps to take some of that emotion out of it.
• 10:37
  Yeah, definitely capturing that third point perspective in black and white.
• 10:41
  The data doesn't lie. So what is the data telling us? And then how do we move forward?
• 10:46
  And what other data can we collect to know if something's working or isn't the right fit? Yeah, yeah.
• 10:53
  Okay, what does an ideal inclusive classroom look like for you,
• 10:58
  and how do you guide teachers toward creating that environment?
• 11:02
  I love this question. This is a great question. Because inclusion can look differently
• 11:07
  in a lot of different spectrums.
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  A lot of times there's this idea that inclusion is kind of just pushing the
• 11:14
  kids with IEPs into the class, and they're just there to kind of check a box.
• 11:18
  But for me, really looking and pushing towards real true inclusion is looking
• 11:25
  at access and engagement.
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  So do all of the students have access to being able to learn in this environment?
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  Do they have access to the tools that they need? And are they engaged in learning?
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  Knowing that the target for all students is not necessarily the same,
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  but in that lesson, in that activity, all students should be engaged in learning in some way.
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  So really, that's kind of what I start from when I'm working with our team or
• 11:56
  now being able to work more closely with some teachers and some leaders is looking at, you know,
• 12:01
  can we identify a way that all students can access the materials and the learning?
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  And are all the students engaged in learning?
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  Because it's not really inclusion if we have the students in there and they're just kind of there.
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  So are they engaged? And then the other thing I really like to look at for inclusive
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  settings is, you know, are the students really inclusive?
• 12:28
  Kind of understand. Do they understand and respect the differences of all of us?
• 12:34
  Are they aware of that? Do they celebrate those differences?
• 12:39
  Because I do feel like kids actually are pretty accepting when we start them
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  pretty young, that they can be really accepting and really understanding of,
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  you know, everybody learns different and everybody has different strengths and, you know, it's okay.
• 12:53
  And it's good. We like that about each other.
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  And so being able to see kids have those kinds of conversations or seeing the
• 13:02
  moments when a student notices another student maybe is struggling and runs
• 13:05
  over to help or, you know, knows right away that this student might need help with a certain thing.
• 13:11
  So to me, it's really, it really comes down to that, you know,
• 13:13
  access, engagement, and then that interaction and respect between the students.
• 13:18
  Yeah, like that true integration in like the classroom community.
• 13:24
  Can I ask too really quick, is part of your work with leadership,
• 13:27
  is that around helping school leaders also recognize a truly inclusive classroom?
• 13:36
  Are you sort of working with them on what they're looking for in their evaluation process?
• 13:42
  Yeah, yeah. So that's definitely a component. Yeah.
• 13:45
  You know, as with all coaching cycles, it kind of takes the direction of whoever,
• 13:51
  you know, whatever their priorities are.
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  But we do try to, you know, guide that. And especially with working with the administrators.
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  So we coach not just within our own programs. We coach within our nine-member districts.
• 14:03
  So we go out into our districts and coach as well.
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  And so some of that work from the administrative side has been working with the coordinators,
• 14:12
  the special education coordinators within those districts to talk about what
• 14:15
  inclusion really looks like and how do you build the capacity for that within your programming.
• 14:23
  Not that we don't want you to need us, but we want you to build your capacity
• 14:29
  so that you're serving and you feel confident serving those students to the best of your ability.
• 14:33
  That way, when you do call us in or you do refer a student, we know,
• 14:37
  hey, the student has gotten the best possible shot and they really do need some additional services.
• 14:43
  Okay, nice. Thank you. What's one memorable moment where you saw your coaching directly?
• 14:49
  I'm sure you have many of these, but where you saw your coaching directly make
• 14:52
  a difference for a teacher and their student?
• 14:55
  Yeah, that's that's tough because, you know, there are there are a lot and especially
• 15:00
  coming kind of from that administrative viewpoint.
• 15:03
  Where I see a little bit of an outsider perspective sometimes.
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  But there is one that particularly, it really stood out for me.
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  So it was in our second year of our coaching team.
• 15:15
  And we had gone through lots of bumps and resistance the first year where we
• 15:21
  had really kind of figured out our approach and how we really needed to,
• 15:24
  as Amy always says, build our coalition of the willing and really looking at that.
• 15:29
  And we had this was not I was not personally coaching the person,
• 15:34
  but we had someone on our team coaching a teacher who was a veteran teacher.
• 15:39
  I mean, 30 plus years in special education and had volunteered for a coaching cycle.
• 15:46
  But we're like, oh, I don't know if this is going to be, you know.
• 15:50
  I don't know how this is going to go. And it turned out at the end that she,
• 15:55
  we actually had her make a video because she said this was like a turning point
• 16:01
  in my classroom this year.
• 16:03
  She said, yeah, I was, I'm a veteran teacher, but I was struggling.
• 16:06
  I had a whole set of kids that I hadn't worked with this population before.
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  And she just talked about how working with somebody and having that thought
• 16:16
  partner to bounce ideas off of, just changed her whole perspective on coaching.
• 16:21
  And then she looked at her class and was like, no, I can do this.
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  I can work with the kids that were a little bit intimidating for her because
• 16:28
  she hadn't been in that population in her long career.
• 16:31
  So that's really one of my favorite ones.
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  Just because it just shows the power of coaching and how when you kind of go
• 16:40
  in with that open mindset and really not going and saying,
• 16:45
  I have to, you know, have all the answers or tell what to do or anything like
• 16:48
  that, how we can work together.
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  And it really benefited the students. We saw the data just reflected that.
• 16:56
  And she looked at that and said, yeah, that's exactly it. The coaching had a
• 17:01
  big impact on this data and on these students.
• 17:03
  So it was really kind of amazing to see.
• 17:06
  And truly at any point in your career, like a 30-year veteran, that's incredible.
• 17:12
  Yeah. Yeah. It was great to be able to show, and that was, again,
• 17:17
  part of us building our coalition of the willing, to be able to show that coaching
• 17:21
  is not just for brand new teachers.
• 17:24
  It's not just for people who are, you know, having a really hard time.
• 17:28
  Anybody can benefit from coaching. and it spoke very loudly within the program
• 17:35
  that she worked because she's very respected.
• 17:37
  She's been there a very long time and people said, hey, if she's open to it,
• 17:42
  then it must be a pretty good thing.
• 17:45
  What a beautiful evidence of collective efficacy. Yes.
• 17:48
  You can partner together and make amazing things happen and then how to bring
• 17:52
  other people on board. Yeah. Yeah, it was great.
• 17:56
  Well, we're going to move into the rapid fire portion of the podcast.
• 18:00
  So in about 60 seconds or less, there's no big clock counting us down.
• 18:05
  What's one strategy every coach should have in their back pocket?
• 18:09
  My favorite strategy in almost any situation is use of visuals,
• 18:16
  of visual supports, primarily visual schedule.
• 18:19
  We get a lot, a lot of times we're called in to look at classroom management
• 18:22
  behaviors and things like that. It's the first thing we say is, where's your schedule?
• 18:26
  How do kids know what they're supposed to be doing and what they're going to do next?
• 18:29
  So that's my number one go-to strategy. I love that.
• 18:33
  Is your visual schedule up in the front of that room where kids can access it? Yep.
• 18:39
  If you had 60 seconds with a new teacher, what's one thing you'd tell them?
• 18:43
  I think the first thing I would tell them is, you know that feeling that you
• 18:48
  don't know what you're doing? That's normal.
• 18:52
  That's normal, especially in the first few years, but you're going to feel it
• 18:55
  sometimes all throughout your whole career.
• 18:57
  And to not be afraid to reach out for help.
• 19:02
  As an administrator, I say all the time that asking for help,
• 19:05
  I view that as one of the highest levels of strength because you recognize where
• 19:10
  you need some assistance and you go for it.
• 19:12
  So that's why I tell people, I'm like, hey, sometimes you're going to feel like
• 19:14
  you don't know what you're doing. But guess what? Somebody around here could help.
• 19:18
  So just ask. Yeah, you don't have to have all the answers, especially that first year.
• 19:23
  Yeah, nobody does. You know, even 25, 30 years in, we still need help every now and then.
• 19:28
  Exactly. Where can we learn more from you and with you?
• 19:33
  Well, so primarily it would be on our cooperative website is eisencoop,
• 19:38
  E-I-S-E-N-C-O-O-P.org.
• 19:41
  My email is jdelosantos at eisencoop.org. I'm not super into social media,
• 19:47
  but I am starting some different ventures where I will be posting more coaching related things.
• 19:52
  So you can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook.
• 19:55
  Just search my name and I'll pop up.
• 19:58
  Awesome. Well, we really appreciate your time and having you join us on C3.
• 20:03
  Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Joy.
• 20:07
  We appreciate Joy so much for joining us and sharing her passion for special
• 20:11
  education, coaching, and inclusion.
• 20:14
  What does inclusion look like in your school? How might you support teachers
• 20:17
  in developing an inclusive environment?
• 20:19
  Thanks for listening to C3 and be sure to follow us on social media.