Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Man blames cough syrup for stabbing wife 123 times & Child killed when 325-lbs woman sits

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Man blames cough syrup for stabbing wife 123 times & Child killed when 325-lbs woman sits · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eight Central on Oxygen, the new
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: network for crime Climb stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. This young, aspiring pastor
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: charged with murdering his Sunday school teacher wife. What do
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: you mean by what happened? Year old Matthew Phelps arrested
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: after a detailed and disturbing called to She stood on
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: the floor between labored breadth an alarming admission, and there's
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: your boy knife on the bed. I think I care,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: a disoriented sounding caller telling the dispatcher he took cough
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: medicine to sleep the night before. He qualifies that yes,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: it looks like I did kill her. The knife is here.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: I have blood all over me. However, this medicine made
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: me do it. A beautiful young Sunday school teacher stabbed
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: to death in her own bed, the alleged perpetrator covered
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: in blood. We want answers, this as the autopsy report
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: just released. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: you for being with us. Take a listen to the
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: urgent nine one one call not one one with Badger
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Day rights, probably North Carolina. Okay, and what is your
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: first and last thing? Fun of you coming from saw
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: a number? Yes, sir, let me exactly what happened? I
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: think I chilled my What what do you mean by that?
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: What happened? I had a dream and then that's turn
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: on the lights and she said on the floor. How
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: how I'm blood? I'm highs blood all over me and
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: there's a bloody knife on the bed and I think
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I did it. Okay, do you mean all right? Stay
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: on the phone with me. I'm getting there and get left. Okay.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: I can't believe this. I can't believe this. When did
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: you When did you wake up to find this? I
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: don't even know what time it is? All right, stay
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: on the phone with me, so I'm just gonna ask
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: if you questions. Okay, I'm getting some help to you.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Are you with Are you with the patient? Now? Yeah,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I can see your Okay, all right, how does the
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: how does the patient? How's your She's pretty dyed? Okay?
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Is she is? She awakened? All right? Now? What makes
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: you think she's there? Does she? Wait? She thought? Three? Did? Okay? Oh?
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Good god? Okay? Do you think she is bond beyond
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: any help? I told though, I told I'm too scared
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: to get too close to her. Okay to stay on
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: the phone with me, sir, I'm here with you. I'm
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: here with you and scared. I'm sorry. I've already sent
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: the paramedic s talthy. Okay, I'm saying someone to assist you.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Just please leave everything as you founded? Is there anything
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: else we can do for you? Said? Where's where is
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: the knife? Right now? If I saw the bed, I'm
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: not next to it, so I'm not. I don't have
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: the lesson on there and it to like that. Okay,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: when did you when did you wake up? I don't know,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I took I took more medicine than
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: I should have. What medicine did you take? I took.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I took core seating, causing coldest course seating HUPKEI causing
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: bold because I know it to make you feel good.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: So a lot of times I can't sleep at night. Okay,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: So all right, what is it? What are you sure
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: it's not breathing, She's not losing? Oh my god, Okay,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna stay. I'm gonna stay here. I feel okay.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Just just let's let's least see if she's breathing. Okay,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: all right, Mr Black Just can you see her from
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: where you're at? Yeah, it's so bad, okay, all right,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna stay here on the phone with you and
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: to help get there. Okay, Um, just don't don't touch anything.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Just look at if she is she's breathing at all?
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Is her chest moving? Is anything going on with her? No? Okay, Well,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna leaves dried on me. It's dried.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: The bloods is not wet on me. The blood is dry. Okay,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know what. God, all right, Well, at least
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: we're gonna at least try to help her. Okay, all right,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: just give me this alright. I've already sent the paramedics
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: to help you. To stand a lot on them too.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Exactly what to do next? Okay, are are you right
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: by her? Blood? I can see her us? Oh my god,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: stay with me, sir. I know, I know, just as upset,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: but we were gonna try to do what as much
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: for as you can. If you're not sure that she's gone,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: we're gonna try to help her. Okay, So just listen carefully,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Just listen, okay, sir, first, just just look at her
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: right now? Is it became? Tell me what you see
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: is she gets the chest moving and she's breathing anything
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: at all? This is all he's so deserved. I understand, sir,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I understand, but right now we just want to make
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: sure we're doing as much as possible. Is there anyone
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: else at all in the home with you? But it
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: is it just you and her? Where are you in
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: the house? Where are you in the house there? Because
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: says the why I don't okay, Well, all right, is
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: the door unlocked? Can you can you go do that
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: for me? So I waited paramedics get in? Can are
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: you able to do that? Okay? Go ahead and go
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: ahead and stay on the stay on the phone with
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: and go ahead and unlocked the door. Okay, who would
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: you say, sir? Can you say, baby, go ahead and
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: unlock the let me know when she's done. Now, okay,
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: let me know. Want the doors unlocked. Mha, okay, I'll
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: these the officers are there. I'm gonnas okay, I'm gonna
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: let you go. I'm gonna let you go. Yes, we're
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: talking about the so called cough syrup killer. The aspiring
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Bible student graduated becoming a pastor anytime now, instead claims
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: he was high on cough syrup when he gets some
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: from his job as a lawn care worker, high on
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: cough syrup, and in some kind of a daze, murders
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: his young wife. Now, this is what is so critical.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: In the last hours, the autopsy report has been revealed.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Joining me right now, Steve Helling from People Magazine, Cheryl McCullum,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Institute, and Karen Stark, psychologist,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Joining us out of New York. Steve Helling, you're on
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: the case, explained to me the very latest on the
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: cough syrup murder. The autopsy report came out, and it
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: is brutal. She had a hundred and twenty three either
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: stab wounds or slash wounds, you know, knife wounds, including
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: and this is this is crazy to me. Twenty four
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: staff wounds and twenty cuts to her neck head, So
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: that's forty four slashes or or stabs with a knife
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: on her neck or head. Then she had him on
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: their corso, and then there were all sorts of them
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: on our arms to us. Stave Stave, Stave, Stave Stave.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I appreciate your exuberance. That's always nice in a man
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: to be, you know, enthusiastic. Uh, can you slow it down?
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm drinking out of a fire hydrant.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Break it down for me too much at once. I've
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: got to analyze, literally, I mean, Cheryl McCollum, you were
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: right there in the courthouse and I was trying cases.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: When I had an autopsy report, I literally would have
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: to study each line because it's it's a foreign language.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: It's like you're in medical school trying to understand what
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: they're saying. Cheryl. To pick up on an autopsy report
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: is no easy thing for a late person. Oh, it's
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: not at all, Nancy, And I agree with you. Line
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: by line, word for word is going to pay in
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: a picture here. So as much as I appreciate the enthusiasm,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: Steve Helling from people magazine. Slow down the train, Now
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: start at the beginning. The first thing I heard was
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty three stab wounds. I really don't
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: need no if I need to hear anything else, because
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know how any Let me just say it,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: jackass could sleep through a hundred and twenty three stabs
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: and then wake up and his wife is dead. But
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: you know what, I'm reserving judgment till I hear the
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: whole thing. Tell me, Steve, start at the beginning autopsy report,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Like we said, a hundred and twenty three wounds, which
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: you know, some of them were very deep and some weren't.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: But you know, there was a struggle, and it was
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: quite a struggle. And it's obvious that this wasn't just
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: you know, the first stab wound was not the one
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: that killed her. To Cheryl McCollum, crimes seemed expert and
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: the director of the Cold Case Institute, Cheryl, let's just say,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: without dating ourselves, this is not our first rodeo. Okay,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: let's talk about what exactly you know another thing, Cheryl,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: What I like to do when I look at a
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: crime scene. First of all, I want everybody to be
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: quiet and let me just look at it. Let me
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: look at every single thing. I'll never forget a Jane
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Doe murder. And I was at the scene where the
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: body was found and I saw her ear ring about
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: two ft away from the body and people had already
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: started stepping on it. I went, whoa, whoa, Well, wait
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: a minute, that was so significant that one thing, Cheryl,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: because if you looked at her naked ear you could
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: see that the ear ring had been ripped from the ear.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: The other ear ring was lost. Okay. That said to
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: me that I was not at just the disposal site,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: that this was where the crime occurred, because ripping out
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: an ear ring tells me there was a struggle right there.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: It turned out that that was correct, and it was
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: way out in an open field, way down in South Atlanta.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone would ever have looked there,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: but see that told me something. That told me that
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: one ear ring told me this Jane Doe had been
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: transported there from where we finally, through circumstantial evidence, figured
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: out she had gotten off a mar Ta train station
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: and that that was the killer's m O. Turned out
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: this was not his first murder. He would get people
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: coming off a mart to train and from that one clue,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: as it turned out, Sheryl McCullum, we could crack really
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: the whole timeline in scenario and find the killer. So
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: one clue, one fiber, one bit of d n A,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: anything can help prove a case. Do you agree or disagree?
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Sheryl McCullum, I completely agree, And Nancy, in this case, specifically,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: with all of those injuries and wounds, I'm gonna want
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: to know how many are defensive, if any, how many
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: year postmortem if any, and how then did she wind
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: up on the floor if they were asleep at the time,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: So the timeline is gonna be what time does he
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: say they went to bed? Was she awake when this
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: happened or was she asleep? And he claims on the
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: number one one call, if you remember, he said he
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: just woke up and there's blood all over him. Well,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: if that's the case, that means he's slept somewhere, so
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: there should be blood on the floor where he slept
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: or in the bed where he allegedly slept. So that's
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: gonna tell whether his story has any credibility at all.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: The preacher who blames his wife's murder on a costs
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: syrup overdose now, according to the autopsy report, actually stabbed
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: her one hundred and twenty three times. The twenty nine
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: year old North Carolina woman, who's newly wed husband tells
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: one one he oeded on cole madisine, was slashed and stabbed.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: She was found in a fetal position. To Steve Helling
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: from People Magazine, I'm sure she had defensive wounds on
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: her arms and knees, correct. I mean, if she was
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: in a fetal position, that means she was curled up
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: trying to protect herself, right exactly. And you know, we
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: know for sure that there were um, thirty five cuts
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: and stab wounds to her left arm, and then also
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: sixteen cuts on her right arm. And you know, um,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: considering that she had all these other wounds, those seemed
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: to be things that she was trying to either protect
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: herself in some way, just because there's so many of them.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: I remember, Cheryl, when I first had a defensive wound
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: on a woman's knees. She had been beaten with probably
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: a bat, and then her home set on fire. She
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: she died for smoke inhalation ultimately, but she had a
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: blow to the head. I'm sure you remember the case
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about. But Cheryl, when the medical examiner said, yeah,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: that's a defensive wound, I said, on her knee, and
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: he went yes, because you're curling up and you're getting
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: blows to the you know, from your elbow down, when
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: you're holding your arms up on your your hands and
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: you're curling your knees and legs up, so you're getting
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: defensive wounds on your kneecaps and from the knees down. Really,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: that's where you see the most leg defensive wounds. Would
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: you agree with that, Cheryl, Yes, of course, Nancy. And
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: that's my point about her winding up on the floor.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: She was trying to get away from the bed to
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: the floor. She did that trying to get away from
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: those blows. And I mean a hundred and twenty three Nancy.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: And keep in mind, whatever the scenario is, she has
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: to go somewhere to get the knife, she has to
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: come back and have this horrific assault on her, and
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: then the knife winds up on the bed when she's
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: on the floor. And then again he's claiming he went
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: and slept somewhere while the blood dried on him. You're
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: talking about a great deal of time and a lot
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: of moving around. Nancy. Yeah, for for the blood to
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: dry with me is renowned psychologists out of Manhattan, Karen Stark, Karen.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: A grand jury met on this case and they determined
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: the charge was not involuntary which is under the influence
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: of a drug or alcohol, or voluntary which we also
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: see in d y vehicular homicides, but premeditated murder, which
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: means that they believe he had time to planet intent
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: to kill. Now, of course, intent Karen, is you and
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I've discussed can be formed in the twinkling of an eye,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: from the time it takes you to point a gun
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: and pull the trigger. That's long enough for intent to form.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be a long, well planned scheme.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: This jury, obviously, on what they heard, did not buy
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: I was high on coughts or and I don't remember
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: what happened. They're calling it premeditated murder. What do you think, Karen.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: I know they were under a lot of financial stress. Us.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: He never got a job as a pastor. He was
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: you know, cutting grass. She was working, she had a degree.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: She was working I think as a forensic accountant or
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: an auditor. I think it was and then even had
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: a second job trying to sell home goods from home.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: You know it. She was working like crazy. Do you
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: think the marriage was falling apart? Karen? I think that
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: there was something really wrong with him, Nancy. Even if
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: he were affected by the cough medicine, whatever it was
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: that he was claiming, it would disinhibit him and there
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: would be that part of him would come out. And
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: obviously we can take cough medicine and we don't wind
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: up killing somebody. There's another side to this guy that
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: is not this wonderful husband, this Instagram perfect person who
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: loves his wife. He posted in the past that there
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: was a dark side to him and talked about his
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: dreams and that since he was young, they're very that
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: he has night terrors and hallucinations. There's more to him
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: than we really understand. Wait wait, wait, wait, what what
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: are you saying? Who said he's got a dark side
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: to him? I bet nobody knew that at Bada school.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: He did tell me about that. In a previous um
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: texts and things that he had written on his Instagram page,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: he called himself Marty Radical and there were photos of
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: him dressed in black. UM. He quotes from a band, um,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: there is evil in my head. Do we have the
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: same guy? Are you talking about twenty nine year old
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Matthew James Felts. Yes, I am okay, whoa whoa, Cheryl McCallum.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Did you know this, Nancy? I had seen a couple
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: of writings about that. And here's the deal. I think
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: he's either alibi building ain't seed to say, hey, I'm
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: going to use this later to say I was just
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: bringing and I don't know anything, or it is very
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: possible that that is basically a confession. I'll take you
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: the one. I want to go back through it very
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: slowly if you don't mind here, and so I can
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. Tell me exactly what you know
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: about his frame of mind, Karen Start. What it was
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: was on Instagram. He had posted I'm not sure when
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: in the past and said that he was He called
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: himself Marty Radical. There were photos of him dressed in black.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: He quoted lyrics by a heavy metal band saying there
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: is evil in my head just let me be. And
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: he said that ever since he was little, and here's
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: the direct quote that I read, I've had some strong
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: activity with my dreams nightmares, night terrors, sleepwalking, hallucinations and
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: controlled dreams have all filled my life so far. Dave
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Helling with People Magazine because all of this that Karen
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: and Cheryl are alluding to his postings his dark dreams.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what kind of dark dreams
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: he was having at Bible School. Nobody seemed to know
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: about it there. But now suddenly he's having dark dreams,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: dresses in black and calls himself Marty radical. Sounds like
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: he's paving the way for a mental defense. Why didn't
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: they just break up Steve Helling for Pete's sake? Well,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: that's a good question. You know, I went to Bible College, Nancy,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: and I do know that there's this there's pushed do
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: you get married, married his marriages for life? This is
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: what it is. And if you're unhappy, that's sometimes just
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: the way it goes. And so I don't know if
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: she just felt pressure not to split up. I don't
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: know if she had this dark side. I don't know
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: if this dark side is calculated. But what I do
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: know is that you had a part, a side of
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: himself that nobody in his life seemed to really know
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: about it, and now it's coming out. Well, wait a minute,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: he had it on Instagram. How can you say nobody?
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, if Karen Sarcastral McCullum know about it, I
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: would pretty much say his wife and family and friends knew.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: You know what you say that, But I know so
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: many people who do things online and just their spouse
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: never sees it, or they don't talk about it with
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: their spouse. You know, I can't imagine that she thought
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: for a minute that her life was in any sort
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: of danger. Otherwise she would have left him. So, you know,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: I think this came out of nowhere for her. I
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: don't know about that, because Karen Start, I agree with
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: almost everything you said. Stayed helling with People Magazine at
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Karen Start A lot of times, for instance, and abusive relationships,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: you stay in it, never dreaming that one day it's
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: gonna be your last day, that that blow is gonna,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: you know, knock you down the stairs and you break
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: your net or whatever, you're gonna get pushed in front
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: of a car. I don't know the scenario. But women
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: stay in relationships without realizing or or without allowing themselves
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: to realize they are in mortal danger. That's not that uncommon.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I mean domestic homicide, for Pete's sake, that's the number
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: one cause of death. Unlikes pregnant women. It's all aside.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: It's not blood pressure, it's not childbirth, it's all aside.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: That's right now. See. It's it's so much about um
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: feeling terrible about yourself and hoping and believing that the
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: person that you're with will change, and she did. They
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: were married. She keeps posting all these beautiful pictures of
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: the two of them, So there's a lot of denial
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: that was going on here. They're struggling financially, and she's
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: making them look like the prince and princess of happy
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: couple of them. I don't think that she really understood
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: that this was possible. And as for why he would
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: do that instead of just leaving her, I mean, when
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: you have that kind of a rage inside of you,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: you have a desire to carry it out. You know,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: you touched on so many important factors right there that
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: are going to come in front of this jury because
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: that's where it's headed. He's not gonna plead flat out
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: to life without parole or the death penalty. That's not
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: gonna happen. He's gonna have a showdown in court. Why
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: not roll the dice and see if a jury comes
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: back with a not guilty hung jury or a lesser
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: like voluntary manslaughter. Maybe some nut on the jury would
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: buy the cost syrup defense. But I want to talk
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: about what Karen just said, Steve Helling. Is it true
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: that when police left at home they took four computers, receipts,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: a mortgage statement, a knife, set, credit cards, and Laurence
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: iPhone all that taken from the home, because typically if
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: there's an accident in the home, they don't start rifling
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: through your mortgage statements. All right, there's a reason they
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: took that, Steve Helling. They were in financial trouble, and
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: we he would not get off of his bomb and
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: go get a job with a church or some type
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: of religious organization or foundation to bring in some money
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: to the home. He was just fine with cutting whatever
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: I can get. Interesting, the things that are on this um,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: you know they got from the sort on their search warrant.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: We're not just you know, obviously the knives make sense,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: the bedsheets, that makes sense, but they also got a
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: lot of things so that they could reconstruct this couple's life.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: The best way to you have is to take their phones,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: their computers, their receipts. You'll know, you know, the police
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: will know everything about their finances and whatever debt they
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: were in and everything just on the things that they took.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: So they must be trying to come up with some
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: sort of motive for why this happened, because these aren't
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: physical items that would have been used and murder. These
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: are actually, you know, things about scenes from their life. Well,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: I can tell you one thing, Steve Howling. I know
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: you're the crack investigative reporter for People magazine, but when
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: it comes to men killing women, it's either money or set. Okay, ladies,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: am I wrong? Help me out here, McCollum. Money or
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: sex it always is. I mean, a woman will get
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: mad because you didn't leave a rose on her pillar
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: for the anniversary and she'll blow your head off. But
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: a man, it's always money or sex. Always. Sorry man,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: sorry to break that to you, Alan Duke and Steve Helling,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: But there's your two motives. You don't think there's a
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: girlfriend boyfriends, there's some reason he won't out and had
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: to do it this way. But Nancy, I want to
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: point out something else, really quickly. Look at the details
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: he gave. I'm covered in blood. The blood is broad.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: He gave the exact location of the night, but then
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: he just says I had a dream. He gives no
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: details of the dream. Was he being attacked in the dream?
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Was he the attacker in the dream? Was he fighting
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: some mythical creature I called thes on his story? You
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: know what? He was so dark and smart, Cheryl mccaull um.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Was his dream? I had a dream? Okay, what dream?
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: You're so right? I guarantee you this much. He'll know
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: what the dream is. By the time he goes to trial, Cheryl,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: he'll have that dream down. Pat You'll know exactly what happened.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, he'll be crying on the stand in tears,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: telling the jury about this bad dream. So, Karen Stark,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: you know, I know you spend your days thinking deep
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: thoughts about psychology and dealing with all your clients and patients.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: But you know it's money or sex. It's one of
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: the two, right Karen. I mean, I know that's pretty simplified, elementary,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: rudimentary for you, but can you weigh in on that
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: he may also be a sociopath. He may be somebody
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: who has just been looking for an opportunity to kill.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: To me, when you read those posts that he allegedly
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: wrote on Instagram, that's as though he's coming up with
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: a defense ahead of time. You know that he has
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: these vivid dreams and he annacts things. So I don't
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: really know when it comes to this guy. Money or sex, yes,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: in most instances, but he stabbed her so many times
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: that it makes you wonder, you know, like what was
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: really going on with him psychologically? And he just may
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: be someone who enjoys killing has been waiting to do
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: something like this. Let's pause just one moment to thank
• 27:29
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• 27:34
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• 27:37
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• 27:40
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• 28:15
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• 28:29
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• 28:33
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• 29:20
  Speaker 1: k C. You know I I remember, um, Cheryl McCollum
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: reading a book. This is before I had the twins
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: and acquired my knee motto. If I have time to
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: read a book, I have time to write a book.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: This is when I still got to read books. Um,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: And I was reading a passage. I think it was
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: some book that was trying to convince you to be
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: a vegetarian, believe it or not. Yes, And Cheryl it
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: was talking about now just go with me for a minute.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Steve Helling quick groaning, Um that when you are okay,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: you're going it through a walk, just say, in Central
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Park and a little at monk crosses your path is
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: your first inclination to chase down the chipmunk and eat
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: it because mine is not okay. But if you see
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: an apple growing on a tree, you kind of have
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: a natural instant you want to go pick the apple
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: or the fig or whatever it is. It's just a
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: natural instinct. It fits in your hand, it's not running
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: away from you. I mean, it's kind of a natural instinct, okay.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: And that's always stuck with me, and I never explained
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: it that way. I actually explained it to juries with
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: a story about a frog and a scorpion as to
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: what is someone's nature, But that's another story. But what
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I'm saying is Karen Steve Helling is talking about his nature.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Had he always is that his nature? Does he want
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: to chase down the chipmunk and skin it and eat it?
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, is his nature to kill and this is
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: his opportunity to do it? Or did he kill for sex,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: for love, for some other a girlfriend, because of money problems,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: because he wanted out of the relationship, because he realized
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: he didn't want to be married. Is it true Steve
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Helling that he actually sliced her jugular vein? Yes, it is.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: That was one of the many wounds on her, you know,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: on her neck area. So yeah, I mean, listen, I
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: understand the idea of money or sex, and you know,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be married anymore. But you know,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: that's when you cut the brake lines in the car
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: or something like that. That's not when you stabbed somebody
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty three times. That's more than just
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I have a girlfriend on the side, or we're having
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: money problems. There's a rage there. It's totally different. You
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: know what You're right, I know you're an investigative reporter
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: for the Incredible People magazine. But I think you may
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: have a side a side career in therapy because a
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: hundred and twenty three stab wounds, including the jugular, Karen Start,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: that's a rage killing without a doubt, Nancy. And that's
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: why I really don't think the test to do with um, Oh,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: he was just fantastic guy and then overnight he took
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: this cough medicine and became a rage killer. This has
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: been overnight, Marty Radical had been in existence for a
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: really long time. About this, Jackie has a very insightful question,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: which it would have probably taken me three weeks in
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: front of a jury before it popped in my head.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: But Cheryl McCollum, stabbing or slicing someone in their juggular vein,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: let's think about that that one thing just a moment,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: because if he was in a frenzy killing, I mean, yes,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: I guess technically he could have sliced her in the neck,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: but I mean, when people are trying to protect themselves,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I think that had to be an intentional thing to
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: specifically go for her juggular, no doubt. But here's the thing.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: This guy was in a rage, There's no question, and
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: this could have been that he was going after her
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: because it's something that she was going to do, if
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: she was going to leave him, if she was going
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: to tell people the reason why, and he was not
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: going to let that happen. So to me, it has
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: more of that feel to it. He was going to
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: stop her from either outing him for being gay, outing
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: him for being brogue, outing him for being abusive, whatever
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: it was he was stopping her, Steve Helling, did she
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: have on her pajamas? Was she dressed for bad when
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: she was killed? Was she naked? Did she still have
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: on her clothes from earlier that evening, because that would
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: really tell me a lot. That's a good question. I'm
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: looking here at the report to see if it's if
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: there's anything about that. I don't know the answer to that.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know that I know the number of
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: staff wounds and that type of thing. It would be
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: really interesting to know what she was wearing because that
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: would tell us, you know, what she was thinking at
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: the time. Was she on her way out the door
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: or was she asleep like exactly exactly, That's what I'm saying,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Cheryl McComb about one clue. Can't completely crack open your
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: theory because if she had on her pj's. You know
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: how when you're getting in bed and you're going to sleep,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: very often you'll start going I'm unhappy, or I want
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: to tell you what happened about so and so, because
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: it may be the first time you actually you're not
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: in motion, in movement, you lay down to go to sleep,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: and you're you've got that twenty minutes or so before
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: you fall off to sleep. That could have been when
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: they got into a discussion if she had on her
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: pj's or did she have on Remember that night before
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: she was murdered, she did a video for since S
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: C E N T S. Why I think it's selling candles,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: you know, like Yankee candles or whatever they are now,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: um um, she was selling them, you know, like a
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: little home business. Did she have that outfit on? Because
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: to me, that will totally torpedo his claim he was asleep.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: That would have meant he stabbed her dad before they
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: ever even got in bed. At His whole story is
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: a lie. So it really matters, right, Cheryl, Absolutely, it
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: matters completely Nazy, That's what I'm saying. His version of
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: what time, did you. I'll go to bed. And that
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: was my point earlier where he claims he just woke up.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: I can guarantee you there's no blood on his side
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: of the bed where he went back to bed. There's
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: not a spot of blood near her where he laid
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: down and you know, to the rest of his sleep
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: there and then suddenly woke up with blood all over it.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: There's not gonna be that secondary stain anywhere. Guys, what
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: we're talking and what you're hearing right now is exactly
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: how I would build a murder case. You go through
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: like we've just gotten the autopsy report on this beautiful
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: young girl, and we are gleaning every shred of probative
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: evidence from the autopsy report we can, and we are
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: asking the questions that would prove or disprove one theory
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: or the next. This is how cases are built. You
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: find your deficiencies, you try to shore them up, or
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: you prepare to fight them. And what you're hearing right now,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: wouldn't you a grace, Sheryl, as how we prepare cases
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: to take to a jury exactly like this. Oh, no doubt,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: and Nathy, I remember something else you did one time,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: a long time ago. It came down to mascara. There
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: was a woman that had been murdered by her husband,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: and he claimed that she had already left for work.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: That was the story, so he didn't know what had happened.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: To remember, she did not have a makeup. Remember that.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I just remembered it now that you said it. Yeah,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: and this young woman depends she had just put up
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: a video. She's in makeup. If she's killed with makeup
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: owns and she hasn't finished her nightly routine to remove
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: that make Chryl McCollum, and they're gonna be able to
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: prove it with something just that simple. You know what?
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: I forgot all about that case. I mean, I remember
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: the murderer, and now I remember she had a pretty
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: high powered job, like not a T n T but
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: something corporate. And she would always remember the days we
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: always had to wear a suit or a dress. Pantyhose
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: I know they were created by men. They're like little
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: torture chambers for your pilvis. And okay, so she had
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: I would always wear pantyhose hills a suit, and I
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: mean she had short, um brown hair. Of course, she
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: was the only one working in the home. Supporting her
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: husband and children. Nothing wrong with that. And um, she
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: never would go into the office without her lunch. She
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: always made her lunch to save money, and she would
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: always be perfectly made up. And she was found She
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: had on her work clothes, but she did not have
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: on your right, she did not have on her Misscara
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: or her makeup, which proved to me she was not
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: really on her way to work. She was not about
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: to get out of the car and go into the office.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: She was killed at home and then put in that car,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: and the car was left in a parking garage because
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: of Mescara. You're right, Cheryl McCullum, exactly. And that is
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: how you prove a case. And now we had to Pensacola, Florida,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: the Gulf Shore. A little girl is dead. Why. According
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: to police, a three hundred and twenty five pound adult
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: woman sat on the nine year old little girl as punishment.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: As punishment, she sat on her for twelve minutes, depriving
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: her of oxygen. The little girl is dead. You know,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: right when i think I've seen it all, I find
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: out I haven't joining me right now. Crime Stories contributing
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: investigative reporter Drew and Nelson Drew. Let's start at the
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: beginning what happened that this was supposedly a punishment for
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: the subtle girl. She's nine years old. Her name is
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Dereka Lindsay, nine year old little girl, and her her
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: cousin who's much older cousin, she's in her sixties. This woman,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: the police are saying, she sat on the girl because
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: she was acting out of control, sat on her to
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: where she couldn't breathe. So what I know is Dereka
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Lindsay of Pensacola. This little nine year old girl goes
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: into cardiac arrest after she complains she couldn't breathe when
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: her much older cousin, who she called Aunt, Veronica Green Posey,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: sat on her to punish her for acting quote out
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: of control. I mean a nine year old little girl.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: That could be them yelling or singing, or slamming the door,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: it could be anything. She sat on her as punishment.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Paramedics race to the scene and the nine year old
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: little girl was rushed to Baptist Hospital, where she was
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: immediately pronounced dead. Now this woman, the aunt, the cousin,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: tal's police she sat on the girl in an armchair
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: to discipline her for quote, being out of control. When
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: she stood up, she says she realized the girl was
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: unresponsive and tried CPR. Now Posey says she weighs three
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five pounds. I'm I'm shocked, Karen starts,
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: psychologists joining us what. I've never heard of anything like it.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Neither have I, Nancy. It's such an extreme punishment for
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: a nine year old. I mean, I've heard of time out,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: but this is actually abusive. You don't have to hit
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: somebody to be abusive. This is a case where someone
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: is using all their weight and actually killing a little
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: girl as punishment. Well another thing we know, um, you know,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: and spanking or not spanking is a whole another can
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: of worms. A swat on the booty. I tried to
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: swap the wins on the booty, especially Lucy John Davis
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: just Mr Happy Lucy Well. I tried when they were
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: about too and they had on such thick pull ups.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: They just looked at me like, what what did she
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: just do? What was that? I just, you know, I
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: gave up right then and then I went with time out,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: which was really like a punishment to me because there's
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: no lock on the door, and I have to stand
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: there to keep Lucy in time out. Now my life
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: is a lot easier. And just say I'm taking away
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: your iPad and suddenly everybody shapes up, even my husband
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: taking away your iPad. Everybody just falls in line, lockstep.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: It's awesome. No more time out, know me having to
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: be the bathroom door police woman. So here, I don't
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: quite understand the significance of sitting on a little bitty,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: very small framed nine year old girl trapped in an armchair.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: There's nowhere she could go. She sat there and went
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: into cardiac arrest. Drew Nelson, Do we have any other
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: information about what she did to deserve that, Drew Nelson?
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: I cannot tell you what she deserved, um other than
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: what the police said that her her aunt, her cousin
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: who they called her aunt, said she was out of control.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: But I tell you what is so unbelievable about this.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: This is the last, the last moments of this little
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: girl's life. The last thing she did was complete. She
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: said I can't breathe. She was she was conscious throughout
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: this whole thing. She she and the last thing she
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: did was say she can't breathe and then she couldn't
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: breathe anymore. She stopped breathing. That's the point that um,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: the cousin had to start doing CPR. She said I
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: can't breathe and was crying, crying to be set free.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: We also know this fact to Alan do joined me
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: from l A. We know her parents were also charged
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: in the incident. H James Smith gray Smith charges of
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: child neglect it for failing to report the abuse. Also,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: gray Smith charged with cruelty toward a child. And of course,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: guess what, Posey's already out on bond. Why why is
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: she out on bond. Let's look at her parents. First
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: of all, her mother, the person listed as her mother
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: on the arrest report, Grace Jones Smith, is sixty nine
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: years old. So I'm assuming that this child was adopted,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: perhaps from another family member. But the mom was sixty nine.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: The dad, James Edmund Smith, also charged sixty two. So
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: these perhaps were actually her grandparents, That's one assumption I
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: would make. But they called Posey over to their house,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: they were neighbors, and not only that, being her aunt,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: they're listed as the parents. What does that mean? I
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: don't know. The arrest report says that the mom Grace Smith,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: called her niece Posey over to her house asking for
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: help because she said Dereka is just out of control.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: So Posey came over. This three pound woman came over
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: and hit the child with a ruler and a metal pipe.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: That's when Dereka ran into the armchair sat in it,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: and that's when Posey allegedly sat on her for ten minutes,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: causing the death. A nine year old little Florida girl
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: is dead after a three hundred and twenty five pound
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: woman sits on her as punishment. The little girl is crying,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: say she can't breathe. She's trapped in an armchair because
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: with an arm on either side and a three hundred
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: and pound weight on you, there's nowhere for you to go.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: The little girl begging for help. Karen start. Did you
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: hear about the pipe and the ruler being beaten with
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: a pipe and a ruler? Yes, this isn't your regular punishment,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: as you were talking about, Nancy, with the kind of
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: family that we're used to. And I want to tell
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: you something. When we were taught, if we were working
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: with kids that were out of control and severely emotionally
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: disturbed kids, we were never taught to sit on them.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: We were taught to hold their arms wrapped around them
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: so they couldn't hurt themselves. Never ever have I heard
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: of punishment by crushing somebody. That's just unnatural, cruel, so
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: extreme that it's it's hard to talk about it. A
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: nine year old crushed hitting a child with a pipe,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: I mean right there, that should have landed them behind
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: bars for child in dangerment or child cruelty. But imagine
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: this feeling the little girl had Karen where her parents
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: and the three pound cousins slash aunt. We're all ganged
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: up on her. I mean, when your child is in distressed.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: They looked to mommy, Mommy, help me, Mommy, come come now,
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: help me. But mommy and daddy were in on it.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: They were colluding with her. Harn this little girl and
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: what happened to You need to be you need to
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: control yourself. Go to your room, calm down. We want
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: to hear what you have to say. No, they were
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: all colluding to do extreme punishment, possibly entering her, and
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: no one seemed to be able to pull themselves together
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: and say they could be terrible outcomes as a result
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: of this. This is awful. Well also we know, of course,
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Drew Nelson. We learned that the a guy named Mike Carroll,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: he's the secretary of the Florida Department and Family and
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Children's Services, issues a statement calling her death appalling and
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: claiming they will now work with the Sheriff's office. But
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: he also says the family has had prior interaction with
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: the child welfare system. You know what that means, Drew,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: There's been trouble before, and they left the girl in
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: the home and now she's dead. I sound like a
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: broken record, Ry Nelson. There's a history here there that
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: was something that we've got to dig into deeper with this.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: The mother and the father, Grace and James Smith. Uh.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: Now I see that they are still in jail. That's
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: what the record show that there's they haven't bonded out yet.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Now I don't even know if they were granted bond,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: So we don't know if there is a deeper, longer
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: case that could be going on here. Uh. The person
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: who is accused of sitting Veronica Posey, who is accused
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: of sitting on the nine year old girl, the three
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: pound woman, she did bond. She she got out on
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: bond dollars bond, I was saying earlier, she's already out,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: she's out on bond and the parents are about to
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: get out there just getting the money together to get out.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to imagine what this little girl
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Dereka went through. Could it be Karen Stark, this is
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: Jackie's there that's sitting on her, or just an quote
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: easy way to control her? It's I think it's horrible.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: What a horrible, horrible way to die as a child.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: You're out numbered by three adults, including your mother and father,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: going along with it as you beg for air and cry,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: and they let you die. I think it's a death
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: penalty case. I think that it certainly was something that
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: wasn't thought out. Is it an easy way to control her? Yes,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: if we assume that killing somebody is always an easy
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: way to control them. It's as though they couldn't think
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: of any alternatives, that they couldn't be more creative. All
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: they could think about is, you know, we'll have somebody
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: crush her without any consequences. We have no idea what
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: this little Dereka lived through before this insane act of
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: a three pound she monster sitting on a very slight
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: nine year old little girl until she's dead. You know
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: they got a one way ticket to hell, as far
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: as I'm concerned with, little pit stop in the penitentiary.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend. Do you
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