Latest / Follow the Leighder / Life and Labor on the US-Mexico Border | Cailan Cordwell, Borderlinks

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Life and Labor on the US-Mexico Border | Cailan Cordwell, Borderlinks · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson. And folks, I went down to the border and I brought back a friend, Cailan Cordwell from Tucson, Arizona. Welcome. Cailan C. (they/them): Thank you so much. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Folks, when I say I brought back a friend, I mean, I actually went to the border. I met Cailan and... They're great. They're a fantastic resource for us to talk about immigration issues with boots on the ground. Cailan is the program organizer and coordinator for Borderlinks ⁓ is a nonprofit organization that's been running for 35 years in Tucson, Arizona that with other ⁓ like ⁓ services resources and groups in the area. ⁓ really to address immigration, ⁓ migrant needs, labor needs, women's needs. There are so many things, but what stands border links out across from other organizations down in that region is that they have what's called experiential learning, where they invite groups and they host groups. They're assigned someone like Caitlin ⁓ to guide them around the area. And it was such a wonderful experience. for me and the other seminarians that attended that Border Links trip in October of 2024, I want to say. So that that is our tie today. Again, we are talking with Cailan from Border Links. Cailan, welcome. Tell me, are you are you from Arizona? What's your what's your tie to the area? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, for sure. ⁓ Thanks so much for having me. I have grown up in Arizona my entire life. was born in Phoenix and grew up in Cave Creek, which is a small town ⁓ of Phoenix, kind of part of the Scottsdale area. ⁓ ⁓ went college at ASU in Tempe. ⁓ And I live in Phoenix and work in Tucson, Arizona with Borderlinks. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: tell us how when you got on with Borderlinks, ⁓ what about it appealed to you? Cailan C. (they/them): Sorry, could you repeat that? Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah, what about border links appealed to you? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, well, so the first time that I encountered Borderlinks was on a college trip. My professors took us down for a weekend to go and see this and put on by ⁓ of America's Watch. And so we stayed at Borderlinks overnight. ⁓ and met with one of their delegation leaders and did a little bit of an immigration history timeline and one of their simulation workshops. And so we really tried to immerse ourselves and understand what is it that people are not talking about about the border. And the thing that got me the most hooked, I think, is just that. you can really take groups and show them things that they've never seen before. Like even growing up in Arizona, I had never been to the border. And so when border links took us down to the border and when they took us on a desert walk to see the landscape, to see. what it looks like in Eravaka where people are literally crossing on foot and utilizing the water drop sites put on organized by No More Deaths and Human Borders and all of those organizations. Like that's not something that you can read about in an article or it is something that you can read about in an article but it's not the same as actually getting to see it. And so that to me was just. life-changing ⁓ and getting to see this other side of education that's not so much, you know, like journal articles and peer-reviewed research, but actually emphasizing lived experience from folks. Like we got to talk to people who had crossed the border, who were seeking asylum, who were... you know, waiting for updates on their cases and who actually saw the border and what it was like and could tell you that like, no, it's not a war zone. There's people that live in Nogales that live in Aravaca that do their everyday business there. Like, especially going to Eravaka for the first time, I was like, this is not that much different from Cave Creek. It's like very small town vibes. Everyone knows everyone. They have, you know, your small town bar that everyone goes and hangs out at. ⁓ And so that to me, I think is what drew me into Borderlinks is the opportunity to get to show this to other people and change lives. ⁓ it's not just, you people in don't even know this. Of course, someone who's ⁓ living on East Coast isn't going to get to see this in their day to day either. ⁓ And that's what brought me in. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: And one thing that we had the opportunity with BorderLinks as you saw, you took us to Nogales and you got to be the one guiding me. And folks, I'm going to back up, Cailan, like there's a McDonald's there. It's fine. There's Burger King. It's a city. It's just like we've had, we've eaten meals there and we've been with like locals and local farmers and. ⁓ Cailan C. (they/them): Good. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And it really, it was humbling. And it was, was, it was humanizing, which is your point, which I think is the point of borderline is to like, put other human beings in an experience so that they can learn about other human beings. And one thing that, and Nogales that you took us on was it was the border where we actually got to touch the border wall. It's not a wall folks. It's not in the way that you're thinking like the gray wall of China. They're slotted or slatted metal, I don't want say poles, ⁓ beams and all connected with more wire and chicken wire at the top. But can you talk about, you know, the past 10 years, particularly with President Trump is that he, which I don't even like saying, we'll just call him Trump, ⁓ he has really focused on this wall. Cailan C. (they/them): Thank Leigh/@followtheleighder: But is the wall a Trump creation or how long has the wall been there? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, that's a great question. ⁓ No, he did not put that wall specifically in place. ⁓ So that specific iteration of the border wall that we see, ⁓ I think that's most commonly shown in news videos where it's just these bars, maybe like 20, 30 feet high. And in Nogales specifically, there's like this sort of metal grate covering them. And so like this wall has been installed in pieces over time. ⁓ And so this version of it, we didn't start seeing until I want to say late nineties, early two thousands. I'm really bad at specific dates, but ⁓ before that, we talked to our community partner in Nogales who's lived there for 35 years. And he shares that this part of Nogales, it used to just be chicken wire. You used to just be able to you know, cross either go through the area where it wasn't fenced or just sort of walk over, get your groceries, do your daily business and then go home. And now we have this, you know, 20, 30 foot wall that. predates Trump, but he was saying, you know, we're going to build this big, beautiful wall. But what a lot of people didn't actually know is that there was already existing wall across, you know, hundreds of miles of the border. ⁓ And the places where there wasn't already a wall is where it wasn't possible or wasn't feasible to build a wall. And so instead there were like vehicle barriers that are sort of these X shaped barriers that are just supposed to prevent people from driving across easily. ⁓ and were other sort of similar natural barriers. like rivers and mountains. There's even places in southern Arizona where they tried to continue building the wall and they blew up like half a mountain and then gave up. And so they weren't able to continue building in that direction. So you can actually drive in Sassade to like the end of the wall in that area. ⁓ But the point being that he didn't have this wall constructed, like it was already there. They did add to some sections and one of our community partners, ⁓ Sierra Club Borderlands, Eric Meza has a really good presentation that shows like the different points where they're either adding new construction or ⁓ where things have been added. recently in the last 10 years. But yeah, this wall has been ever changing and evolving. And even in the last couple of years, we've seen it go from. you know, these bars with grating and sort of vehicle barriers that come out and prevent you from coming up close, which that was installed to prevent people from doing what they were doing at the border in Quentro, where people were sort of setting up concert stage and like singing on either side of the border. They didn't want people to get close to it. So they installed these barriers. And there was barbed wire, like rings of barbed wire, just like three or four layers all up against the side of the wall. And for a while they took down that razor. barbed wire, ⁓ but we did see it recently installed again in Nogales, ⁓ which again is just, it's a city. So it's this very urban area where, you know, there's fast food restaurants and there's people driving and there's like kids walking after school. ⁓ And so in this urban center, they've reinstalled these rings of barbed wire. ⁓ And I'll get to go down. this March for a couple of delegations, but I've seen some photos already that like people have woven ⁓ sort of around the barbed wire, like pieces of fabric and like little delicate butterflies and flowers, ⁓ especially in the area where Jose Antonio was murdered by a border patrol near the memorial for him. They've especially been, this has been happening for a while. People put flowers and things in the wall in that area. Leigh/@followtheleighder: we've talked about wall ⁓ and ⁓ I mean border between Texas and Mexico is so long. ⁓ And as you said, there's lots of. ⁓ nature, like mountains, rivers, ⁓ desert. how you spoke to Sierra Club, how is it impacting wildlife migration? for one, and two, is the wall impenetrable? Impenetrable? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, that's a great question. Leigh/@followtheleighder: So those are my two questions I need to like, can you, is the wall, can someone just break in or climb over or whatever? And then also what about wildlife? What does that look like? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, so I mean, definitely it's not impenetrable. So it's, I'm not sure exactly how many billions of taxpayer dollars have gone into this wall, but it's not impenetrable. ⁓ As I said, there is a point where you can drive to the end of the wall. So you can just go around it in that area. And then there are other areas where like people have just sort of taken like wire cutters to cut through certain sections. ⁓ and also like ladders, like climbing over the wall. And so it's definitely not impenetrable. ⁓ And one thing that one of our community partners says is like, yeah, they'll build a 30 foot wall and we'll build a 31 foot ladder. it's not, you know, this is not as easy as just putting something up to keep people out. Like people will find a way through because it... It's not about just like, you put this thing up here to stop me. Like if someone has the desire to come to the United States, they will find a way to do so. And as far as for how it's impacting wildlife, definitely know, like, it's not as easy for wildlife to get around. There are lots of videos that you can see of, like, deer and large mammals trying to find a way through. ⁓ Not a lot of people know, but in southern Arizona, there are jaguars that are native to the area that have been... less and less seen throughout the year so i'm not sure if they're actually going extinct but they're native to southern arizona and northern mexico and they are one of the large mammals that cannot easily cross back and forth through this border we've got so much wildlife and i feel like not a lot of people know that because it's they just kind of picture sand and tumbleweeds and cactus but we have javelina we have coyotes mexican gray wolves the jaguars lines, bobcats. And so some of these things can, you know, find the gaps in the wall and the government was pushed to install these sort of like doggy doors in the fence. So it's large enough that like a bobcat or I've seen videos of like a mountain lion kind of squeezing through to get across. There are things like that in place where they've tried to make sure that wildlife can still cross back and forth easily but... ⁓ Definitely there's this, like we're not considering the impact that this wall has on other life outside of just trying to keep people out. And I think it's also important to mention that. This wall was constructed as part of the Border Patrol Strategic Plan of 1994, which came out of several other operations. And the idea was prevention through deterrence. So making it so difficult and dangerous for people to cross that people just would give up and not try. And obviously that's not been the case. People still will try and still have succeeded in crossing. But by building these walls in urban areas, ⁓ because these are the places where they can build the walls. It forces people out farther into the desert, into the more mountainous regions, into the more dangerous regions where you're just farther away from everywhere. You have to walk for a longer period of time in the elements. ⁓ And so I just wanted to add that as well, that it is part of this policy of preventing people by making it that much more difficult and dangerous. Leigh/@followtheleighder: cruelty is the point. Cailan C. (they/them): right exactly. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and that's a great segue because you talked about desert walks and that is such that was so profound for me. ⁓ Can you speak a little bit about what the desert walk is, who No More Deaths is, and even some of the humanitarian laws or nuances about going on the desert walk? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, for sure. ⁓ This is something that we try to do with every delegation because it's really important as part of that experiential learning aspect to see the desert. And we emphasize that this is never an attempt to try to like put yourself in a migrant's shoes. Like we will never be able to simulate or experience what migrants feel when they are crossing for a number of reasons. One is we're only going on these hikes for like two hours max. We have all of the equipment and everything that we need. have folks who are trained in first aid and CPR. We have our first aid kits, we have a van. ⁓ And if anyone needs to stop at any point during the hike, they're free to stop and wait for the group to pick them up. And they know that we will be there to pick them up. And that's not always the case for folks who are crossing the desert. ⁓ and so when we go on these desert walks, we're often with a guide from No More Deaths, who are a really great organization. There's lots of other orgs that are similar that, go out and provide water at different drop sites across Arizona and across the Southwest. And so they'll leave, you know, those gallon jugs of water. They'll have a bucket, ⁓ that's got a lid that screws on the top to keep wildlife out of it. And they'll put canned foods in there. They make sure that we only purchase cans that have the pop-top lids so that people don't need a can opener to open and consume the food. They'll also add like those safety blankets for warmth because some people don't know that in Arizona even in the winter the weather... ⁓ that's what that is. I low-key thought that was a siren. Leigh/@followtheleighder: My dog. He is howling outside. Cailan C. (they/them): You're okay. So Leigh/@followtheleighder: That was really funny. Thank you. Thank you everyone for being a part of that. It was his song. Yes, I appreciate him alerting me of the alerts. Like he will look me square in the eye and be like, they're coming. I need to harmonize. Okay. But I'm so sorry. Let's start off as reverse. ⁓ Cailan C. (they/them): He's singing the song of his people. ⁓ Thank Leigh/@followtheleighder: There are many organizations that support Desert Walks. You bring up No More Deaths. Talk a little bit about what one can expect going on a border links experience with someone like you and No More Deaths. Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah. So it'll usually be the borderline delegation leader and a guide from No More Deaths or if they're not available, another organization will drive the van out. It's like an hour and a half from Tucson to Aravaca. And on the drive down there, ⁓ pretty soon after you get off the freeway and start driving towards Aravaca, you drive through a checkpoint. There are border patrol checkpoints on either side of Aravaca. So folks who live in the town and have to leave to go to work, school, grocery store have to cross through this checkpoint. ⁓ where they will frequently be stopped and asked, is everyone in the vehicle you a citizen? So we'll drive through that checkpoint. We'll drive another like half hour, 45 minutes to Arabaca Lake and we will go on a hike with our guide. It's about 40 minutes to an hour out. and 40 minutes to an hour back depending. There are a couple of water drop sites and so we change it up. We don't go to the same one every single time, but oftentimes we will park the van, get out. ⁓ We're fully allowed to be on this land. This is public land. We often see people who are camping, fishing, ⁓ just doing their thing out there. And we'll, you know, hand everyone a gallon jug of water, everyone who's able, and some folks pack up their backpacks with canned goods. And we'll start the hike and it can be kind of tricky if there's been heavy rains recently, which is more likely during monsoon season. So like late July, early August ish, ⁓ all the way up to September. And so if the beginning part of the trail has sort of washed out, it might take our guide a minute just to like find a safe path for us to start on. ⁓ But then we'll, we'll hike out and it's, you know, sometimes the viewer are better than others. the gravel is kind of loose and it's a little slippery and slidey and ⁓ definitely have had some groups where a few people fall down, but we're able to just get back up and brush it off. And, you know, we take frequent water breaks ourselves as we go out there. ⁓ and we're able to do that and emphasize that we want to take care of our bodies as we're doing this. And again, like we're not trying to emulate the migrant experience. We're just out here trying to provide water that anyone can use. ⁓ And so when we get out there, some folks choose to, you know, take Sharpies and write messages on the gallon water jugs in Spanish and in English, things like, you know, we're happy that you're here or safe travels or prayers even, which is really sweet. And we'll unload food. ⁓ We'll just sort of take note of if there's been use at the site. No More Deaths often has water drops. They lead several with volunteers and I know someone who goes out regularly like multiple times a week. And so they'll often make sure that these sites are being kept up. And so we're never too worried about like, is there enough supplies there? Because we know that it will be checked up on. But while we're there, we'll also see like, you know, is it being used? Is there a need for more at this particular site that we can let them know about. We like to pack out trash with us sometimes if we can, just because there are usually used water bottles and things like that. We try not to disturb, like, if we see someone's backpack out there, like leaving that kind of thing. Just not wanting to disrespect and then also if there are people still out there that are fearful because they see us, we don't want to cause any harm or panic. And so we just do our thing and then we hike back out. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Can you clarify, so you talked about ⁓ the canned goods and the water, and these are being delivered on American soil to folks who are not American citizens. Is that legal? How ⁓ are you and Nomar Dats able to do that? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, so it's important to remember that humanitarian aid is never a crime. ⁓ And No More Deaths has faced several legal battles in regards to this in the past, but they have never been, ⁓ what's the correct legal term? Like no one has actually been charged or like. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Like convicted? Yeah. Yeah. Cailan C. (they/them): convicted. Like they've been charged, no one has been convicted. They've won their case. But it is difficult for smaller nonprofits to, you know, have to pay out legal fees to fight these battles and waste time and resources on that. But the main thing is, the government has tried to stick with them, littering charges for leaving water out. But they've won their case every time that I'm aware of. because what they're doing is they're looking water out here for anyone. anyone who comes across it. ⁓ Hikers could use it, border patrol could use it. Sure, migrants can also use it. But it's not a crime to leave water in the desert where, you know, people would otherwise die due to lack of resources. And I know there was one prominent case that made the news where Scott Warren, an ASU professor who was with no more deaths was arrested and charged with I believe it was like harboring or something at the No More Deaths camp where they provide medical aid for folks. But that's its own whole other thing. But he was not convicted on those charges. He was providing medical aid for folks who were at their camp with them. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, and it's so wild to talk about legal cases and charges against humanitarians. Like, I'm just like, no more deaths. Like, I walked out with you and dropped water and people think that's... they hate it so much. ⁓ and it's just it's such a heated discussion and in the heat of the desert. ⁓ Can you talk a little bit about ⁓ labor or work along the border? What do labor rights look like or labor conditions? ⁓ Let's start with that first. Let's talk about migrant labor and what that looks like and then we'll talk about DHS labor. Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, for sure. I may or may not know a lot about this. ⁓ I'll see if I can answer your question. ⁓ So I know that... Like along the border in on the Mexico side, ⁓ one source of labor where folks can find work is the Makila factories. ⁓ These are factories that are with US owned companies or foreign companies that have factory sites in Mexico producing like medical equipment, ⁓ computer equipment, things like that. ⁓ And so that is a draw in northern Mexico for folks to work there. ⁓ I know that worker rights have improved. I don't know what they are currently, but I know that in the past has not been great. Like the amount of pay that they get is just not substantial for daily living and like, ⁓ you know. ⁓ being able to sustain yourself and your family. And I've also seen, there was a good documentary that I remember seeing, the Kilopolis, I think, where it talked about, you know, not only is it difficult because they're not getting enough pay, they're not given enough breaks, they're working long hours, they're working like so many days and so many hours a week that are far above what is humane, but also the like chemical exposure and the environmental impacts in the areas where these factories are. and how that's impacting the people who live near them, who work in them, things like that. ⁓ And on the US side, I know that people can work if they get a workers permit. And then there are also cases of ranchers who employ people who are undocumented and don't have a workers permit. And it is much easier to exploit folks if they don't have a workers permit because you're paying them under the table and you're just paying them whatever you think is fair. ⁓ they can't really retaliate against that because you know what is their legal right or what are they able to do if they don't have those documents. And I have heard of cases where like a rancher was trying to help someone who had been working with him for several years who didn't have papers but he'd been working on the farm so he talked to a lawyer about you know how do I help this guy very well meaning he wanted to make sure that he could you know set this right and help this person get a work permit and try to just like improve the overall situation. ⁓ But the lawyer explained to me that like, actually not that easy. ⁓ Because now he's been working in the US without papers for so long, like you have to sort of go through this process of like, he might have to leave, he might have to apply for this other thing. And then like also, you have to prove that ⁓ in order to hire someone from outside of the US, you have to prove that that job can't be filled by someone already in the US, or that no one wants that job. And so there were just like all these steps and all of this money that would get into it for this rancher in South Arizona, for him to be able to pay someone ⁓ over the table. And then also the lawyer explained to him, like, you would also have to be willing to pay him like what he would deserve, like what his actual wages would be with this. So like, can you afford to pay him that and also can you afford to pay these other fees and would you be willing to work with him to, you know, wait out this process however long that takes. But so it can be really difficult for people to find work that doesn't take advantage of them. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, no kidding. ⁓ and thank you for explaining that because there were conditions on the Montekias. Did I say that? Makila. ⁓ Cailan C. (they/them): ⁓ Makila. Leigh/@followtheleighder: They, think matakiya is like butter or something. I don't know why. But these factors that you mentioned, the horrible working conditions. I remember talking to a woman who told me that if a woman is pregnant, she gets fired, and they don't hire people over the age of 35. And they don't hire people over the age of 35 so that when you start your job, you can't leave it. It's a trapping. Cailan C. (they/them): Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And again, are these factories, are they Mexican owned or are American? Cailan C. (they/them): They're American owned in Mexico. So they're US companies. know Intel is one of them. And I know there's other companies that do similar things and have factories outside of the US like Coca-Cola for sure. ⁓ I don't know if I'm allowed to like name these brands. So feel free to like censor those out if that's not allowed. But yeah, they're US owned companies that just have factory sites in Mexico. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. Yeah, so taking advantage of foreign labor and taxes, it's like, it's so slimy. ⁓ Well, and also I want to talk about, you said DHS labor. ⁓ That area between Tucson and Nogales is very rural, very desert. ⁓ There are folks that, you know, when I was there, I saw the Trump and MAGA flags and a major employer for the area is DHS and ICE. Can you talk a little bit about what that's like? ⁓ Have you seen an uptick in applications, an uptick in presence? What has it been like being where you are? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, yeah, so I completely understand, like... the plight of you're looking for work and there's nothing really, this is your last resort, right? You might meet all of the qualifications to apply for a position with border patrol or CBP or ICE because you're just looking for something, ⁓ especially if you grew up and are bilingual in Spanish, that's something that they look for. Or if you have any sort of military experience, ⁓ if you have any kind of degree, It's a job and it pays the bills and they have, they make big promises. ⁓ One thing I think that's been in the news recently is that they... we're having like a $50,000 sign on bonus for anyone who would join ICE. But what I read in regards to that is that a lot of people were misled. It's a $50,000 sign on bonus, but split up between like five years. So it's $10,000 a year. And if you quit or leave ICE in that five year period, you have to pay them back. So. it's like this, you know, yeah, we're willing to help out people who are looking for work and supply them with this really great opportunity. It's almost too good to be true. Because it is because they're asking you to forfeit, you know, your morality and humanity for money that then they could ask you to pay back if you don't follow this contract. ⁓ And it's really difficult. I know. it's similar to how like one of the other big employers is like weapons manufacturing companies. And so people are just sort of forced to make this hard decision of, you know, do I leave the area that I call home to go and find work elsewhere? Or do I just do what I can with what I have? ⁓ But yeah. And I know that Board of Patrol at least has a union because one of my coworkers was telling me about how Board of Patrol their union has made a case for them to not have to work if it's raining outside. ⁓ And so we'll drive through checkpoints that are unmanned, like on the way to Arabaca if it's raining because they don't want to be working out in the rain. ⁓ So I know that there's at least someone fighting for their labor rights. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, I did not know that about the Union, particularly. And it'll be interesting. I'll have to look into that because this administration is very anti-Union and very pro-military and very hierarchy. You're going to stand out in the rain whether you like it or not. ⁓ But it's, have you seen like, Have you seen any protests or an antagonism like right where you are? Does Nogales or Tucson look like Minneapolis? Cailan C. (they/them): Not, I mean, yes, there's been protests and actions in Tucson. I don't think that it looks quite like Minneapolis. think that a lot of people are still, like people who don't live in Tucson are definitely like, ⁓ my God, is it like a war zone? Like what is happening down there? ⁓ and there have been protests and there have been instances where like ISIS confronted and arrested people and people have been pepper sprayed and there have been raids at, you know, restaurant chains like the taco, you know, restaurant chain where they raided like 40 locations all at once. And it was this very coordinated action, ⁓ to look to detain and deport folks who were undocumented and working at this chain. And it's happened with other restaurants as well, in Phoenix and Tucson. But at the same time, it feels like not that much different than what had been happening. So it's hard to say. Tucson has been in this fight for so long and been protesting ICE. And, you know, there's the rapid response teams that are going out and responding to, you know, traffic stops and raids at hardware stores and things like that, that it doesn't feel that different. Like it just kind of feels the same in a way. ⁓ But it also at the same time feels like things are escalating. ⁓ And yeah, it's really difficult to say, especially since I'm not in Tucson, like on the ground every day because I do live in Phoenix and I like drive down for a couple of weeks every other month. But, you know, still when I visit Tucson, like I was just there last month. It's, you you walk around downtown Tucson and it's the same. like people are just doing their thing. ⁓ But I know that for a lot of folks, like there is a fear now of going out, of going to school, of going to work. ⁓ And what's really nice is that there's organizations that offer to accompany people to their doctor's appointments or to their court appointments so that people don't have to feel like they're going into the situation where they might be picked up by ICE alone. ⁓ And so they'll have someone go with them or have community members like pick up their kids from school or help bring them groceries. ⁓ So it's hard to say because I'm not personally someone who would be at risk where I would be like in fear of leaving my home. But I know that there are folks in the community who are in that situation and who are having to lean more on those community resources. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And thank you. That's one of the things as you were talking ⁓ made me think of women and children of migrants and what that might look like. ⁓ Can you tell me what is for some of these people that are going across the desert? Are women and children doing that or how are folks coming across the desert? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, I think it's everyone. I don't think it's limited to one specific demographic. I think historically people kind of assumed that it was only young men, like 18 to 40, that were crossing the desert to come and work for their family and send them into his home. that's not the reality. The reality is that there is no one demographic that is crossing. When I went down with a group to Sasebe a couple of years ago, I think it was early 2024 or early 2025. I'm not sure. ⁓ There was a refugee camp that had been set up by No More Deaths and Tucson Samaritans in Sasebe to help because there was such a high influx of refugees and people crossing. And so when we went down to see if we could help, you know, provide water, make sandwiches for folks, we did see that there were a lot of people crossing on foot that were, you know, women, children, men, people with families, people, some folks on their own. Sometimes there are minors who cross on their own. Those are unaccompanied minors. And I think the way that people cross is different for everyone. ⁓ Some people do come through a port of entry. Some people do cross mostly on foot or take buses as far as they can. There's stories that you'll hear of people riding La Bestia, the beast, this train in northern Mexico. That's a cargo train, so it's not meant for people to ride on, but they'll climb on top. It's very dangerous, but that's how a lot of folks will... travel across the ground faster. And so it's different. There's no one monolith or one size fits all story of how people are crossing. And then there's also people traveling with their guides, with coyotes. And these are guides that they'll pay money to travel with them. and they'll get them to the border. They might get them up to the actual border itself and then say, okay, 20 minutes more and you'll reach Phoenix. ⁓ So you'll have guides that might blatantly lie to people and tell them that they're much closer than they actually are. guys that will be more honest. ⁓ always bring them a little bit farther, but it's hard. And people that travel in larger groups, it can be difficult. Like if someone has blisters on their feet and can't walk anymore, or if they trip and twist their ankle, or if border patrol uses their method of chase and scatter, where they will chase on foot or pursue in a helicopter so that the group separates and people get separated from each other and lost, then people get separated from the group. And it is safer to travel in numbers and not on your own. so those are the cases where we see people losing their lives in the desert because they've been separated and passed away due to the elements or due to being left behind. That's one of the things that can cause deaths in the desert. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And it just makes me think, you know, women and children using the camp days. And I believe I heard a story about how for women it is so unsafe to use that particular method because of sexual assault and harassment. I mean, it's a vulnerable woman out in the middle of the desert and it's a journey to track. How, I have a nice thing. When, Cailan C. (they/them): Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Can you talk about a little bit more about DHS, about ICE? ⁓ When was DHS and ICE established in the United States? When did those come about? Cailan C. (they/them): is a great question. Give me one second. We actually do have one of our workshops is the immigration history timeline. And we have like 40 to 60 slides that show. all of the different events and timelines starting from like 1492 with you can guess what, going all the way up until now with how is policy changed and how we sort of written and adapted. And that definitely has been it when ICE was created. I don't want to. Leigh/@followtheleighder: point in. I'm glad you have this workshop. know that it was meaningful for me because, I mean, immigration policy has long been a reflection of who is quote unquote an acceptable American. And you can see that. I know that other countries, and I'm sure there's racism and xenophobia going on in other countries, border policies for sure, but really distinctly the United States has a very clear idea of who is welcome and who is not. ⁓ And it's a lot of, particularly on the refugee side, I know that a lot of, a lot of why there are refugees are because of American policies. Like us going into another government, shaking stuff up and then being like, I don't know, I'll figure it out. And that's very destabilizing. So, but yes, please, if you have any years on hand, because I know we've always had immigration policy, but DHS and ICE, are those 9-11 related? Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah. And so... Yeah. So in 2001, after 9-11, the war on terror begins. So our sort of response to these terrorist attacks and the creation of Department of Homeland Security happened in 2002. And so this is when the immigration and naturalization services was absorbed from the Department of Justice. And then it was divided into three new in separate agencies. And that was Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, Citizenship and Immigration Services, CIS, or USCIS, and Customs and Portal Protection, which is CBP. And so that is when those agencies were created. They did not exist prior to 9-11. created them as a response to that. And so even in like the 90s, when we were starting to see this heightened response of building up border walls in urban areas and prevention through deterrence and hiring more border patrol agents, these other agencies didn't exist yet. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and that's, cause that's something people are saying now they want to abolish ICE and including my cause I wasn't too familiar on the years, but that is when someone says abolish ICE, it's a knee jerk reaction to be like, but what are we going to do about border security? And it's like, we've actually, we've had something else and this is new, which is kind of sickening when you think about it, that this has been in the works for a while. ⁓ can, are heading towards the end. Kaylyn, could you tell folks ⁓ they could imagine if their organization booked, I don't know, five days with you, a week with you? What would it look like for an organization to book a week at Borderlinks? Roughly. Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ A week with us could mean a week where you get to spend a day going down to Nogales and seeing the border for yourself, talking with some of our community partners down there. ⁓ We're partners with a few folks that just live there. Sometimes if groups cross, they can have lunch with our community partners ⁓ at his daughter's house and she'll cook a meal for us. And there's an art gallery that works with kids on both sides, providing music and art therapy for kids. you know, you could expect a day on the desert walk, which ⁓ really we can tailor to groups. ⁓ We work with different organizations, so like No More Deaths, where we could go out and do a water drop, or we work with a local artist, Aldo and Siso, who installs crosses where migrant remains have been found in the desert. And you can follow him on Instagram as well. ⁓ so we can take groups out and install crosses and have very much this like funeral procession in remembrance of someone who has lost their life at the hands of the US government. ⁓ You can also expect to meet with some of our community partners like Sierra Club Borderlands, Metapostasin Fronteras, and ⁓ Tucson Southside Presbyterian Church, one of the first churches involved in the sanctuary movement in the 80s. And we really try to tailor each delegation to groups. And so if they're interested in meeting with the medical examiner's office, we can make that happen. If they're interested in hearing more about specifically the climate and the environmental impact of the border, we can make that happen. We've driven groups out to Sells, Arizona, the Himdagki, the Tohono O'odham Cultural Center and Museum. all of these things that we can do in addition to workshops that we've created ourselves that ⁓ highlight things like. dismantling the myth that people should just come here the right way or that they should get in line. And these ideas that there are migrants that are more deserving than others. Like how do we dismantle those myths ourselves? what would it mean if we created a future where we're all more free? Where we focus on freedom of movement for everyone regardless of where they come from? And so that's what you could expect from a week with us is a week filled with community partners and workshops and getting to see Southern Arizona for what it really is. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely, and thank you for bringing up the Tohono O'odham Indigenous people. Can you speak quickly or just an overview? How are they impacted by the border? Cailan C. (they/them): Okay. Yeah, so in southern Arizona, ⁓ Tucson and several other areas are situated on the ancestral lands of the Tona'otam people. so along with the Tona'otam, there are the Hi'ichet'otam and the Akamel'otam. And the Tona'otam are the only ones that are federally recognized and have their land. And the land that they've been... allowed to exist on that is federally recognized by the government is right on the border and it's been split by the border. So there's about a 75 mile stretch of the border wall where their land extends onto the US side, but it also extends into Mexico because these are their ancestral lands. And so people who want to cross back and forth have to cross with their tribal ID through the, ⁓ I don't think it's technically called a port of entry, but there's a specific spot where they're supposed to cross back and forth on that land. And so that's one way that they're impacted. And another is profiling, ⁓ being stopped at checkpoints and being presumed to not be a citizen just because they are indigenous and have a tribal ID. ⁓ We've seen this already earlier this year. Someone was detained ⁓ in another state. I'm having trouble remembering which specific news story this was because so much has happened ⁓ in just such a short amount of time. But so basically they were detained but they were Leigh/@followtheleighder: No. Cailan C. (they/them): a member of the autumn nation and had to fight for their release because they are technically they are a US citizen having been born in the US like and so I don't yeah Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. that makes me sick. And to think about, ⁓ you know, the private detainment or detention centers. I know they're popping up in Texas. I know that there's some in Arizona and New Mexico. ⁓ Have you seen more activity or anything up in your neck of the woods? You have. Cailan C. (they/them): Mm-hmm. Right now, actually, there's, I need to follow up and see what the update was. ⁓ There's an old prison in Marana, which is north of Tucson by about 20 minutes, ⁓ that they're currently trying to contract out and turn into another detention center. ⁓ ⁓ And so prior to that, I mean, we have a few detention centers in Arizona in Eloy and Florence that are sort of these far out of the way areas. They do that on purpose to make it harder to get to them ⁓ if lawyers or family wants to meet with loved ones who are detained. And they're just sort of out in these places where you don't have to look at them, where you don't think about them. And so now they're looking at... even having detention centers contracted out in Marana, which is sort of this, ⁓ you know, it's like suburbia. ⁓ And so it's just wild that they're looking at expanding there. ⁓ And I did also want to mention the one of the detention centers in Florence specifically ⁓ used to be a Japanese internment camp in World War II. And This is not unique. Yeah, isn't that so fun? ⁓ So, so fun. And that's not unique. We've heard of similar detention centers. I'm drawing a blank on the specific ones right now, but ones that used to be internment camps or other prisons or places where indigenous kids would be sent away from their families. so... ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: I Cailan C. (they/them): the history of these places, the cycle of continued cruelty in them, ⁓ and using these spaces in that way, it continues. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: And it's, it's just, it's policing and detaining. Like, that's where the taxes are going. It's so... And that's just, know, for me and many of my other, some of my followers, a lot of us have a faith background and that is, it's alarming to our faith. That's not how we see or are guided. And I would like to see a society where, you know, we have come together and built a society that we don't need a deity to save us. Like we've just, we did it, we came together and we were like, yeah, we should help one. And, but. Well, I know that I could ask you a zillion more questions, but we've got to go. there any, how can folks, ⁓ how can folks book with Borderlings? How can they follow up, donate? Tell us how we can find more about Borderlings. Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ You can find us on Instagram and Facebook at border links and you can also find our website borderlinks.org. It's border links, L-I-N-K-S dot org. ⁓ And on that page, you can go to the join us tab where you will find this lovely button that says schedule a delegation ⁓ and you can click that. My email is also on that page as well to reach out to me with any questions if you want to talk about. about rates or things that we can do if you want to come down and stay with us at BorderLinks or if you want to come down and stay for just a few days, if you want to do virtual programming. ⁓ We've even started sending delegation leaders out to folks if they can't come to Arizona for some reason, we can come to you and do programming and workshops. And I think it's really important that everyone right now be... as much as possible paying attention and trying to learn as much as they can, especially with the amount of censorship that we're seeing and just things not being shared out in the news. ⁓ And it would mean a lot see more folks come to Borderlinks because it's not just about ⁓ knowledge that I share, but it's about the knowledge of our community partners and other program organizers and delegation leaders. ⁓ core tenets is that we follow popular education. so. Everyone has lived experience and knowledge to share. This is not just one person has all the answers. This is, this takes all of us coming together ⁓ and sharing and collectively learning together. Like I don't have all of the answers. No one does. And so that's part of why we do what we do so that people can come and hear from folks with that lived experience and that knowledge. ⁓ And I hope to see some of your listeners. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely, absolutely. mean, and folks, we didn't even get to go down. There's surveillance, AI, Israel, contracting, guys, it's everything. There's such a concentrated power of elite, wealthy people. Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: that are running everything. I mean, when I saw driving with you and everyone in the van and seeing all those security cameras and being told it's the same company that's been doing it over in Israel, I was just sick, sick. But thank you, Cailan, so much for your time today. It has been just so informative, so enlightening. And... Cailan C. (they/them): Yeah. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Man, I really hope that this brings you some good organizations and followers and donors because what you're doing is important. Thank you. She froze on me. ⁓ that's so disheartening. She might be refreshing. I don't know. Alright, well it looks like she's having a tech glitch at the end, which is unfortunate. But folks, thank you so much for joining me for another episode of Follow the Leighder. I am your host Leigh Larson, and see you next time. ⁓ ⁓