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Serial Killer Stalks Young Boys in Atlanta, Who's the Real Killer? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece, a city gripped in fear
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Speaker 1: as the body count grows one, two, eight, twelve, seventeen, eighteen,
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Speaker 1: twenty one, twenty eight thirty. Many of the dead young boys.
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Speaker 1: All I can think about right now are my children
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Speaker 1: and my son John David. What was going through the
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Speaker 1: minds of all of these parents when on that day
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Speaker 1: their son didn't come home. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
1:01
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at
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Speaker 1: Fox Nation and Serious XM one eleven. A period of
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Speaker 1: months drag on and on no answers as to who
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Speaker 1: was kidnapping and murdering little boys and young men across
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Speaker 1: the city of Atlanta. With me an all star panel
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Speaker 1: to make sense of what we know right now. But
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Speaker 1: first of all, take a listen to this. It was
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Speaker 1: a phrase uttered by a local television anchor that haunted
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Speaker 1: parents in Atlanta's neighborhoods. It's ten o'clock. Do you know
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Speaker 1: where your children are? Twenty nine children and young adults
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Speaker 1: were killed. The carnage became known as the Atlanta Child murders.
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Speaker 1: More than two dozen were killed or missing, most of
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Speaker 1: them children and mail between the ages of nine. And
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Speaker 1: twenty eight years old. One child vanished after another never
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Speaker 1: seen alive again. Their bodies found across Metro Atlanta strangled suffocated.
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Speaker 1: The first two discovered on August seventh, nineteen seventy nine.
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Speaker 1: By August the following year, the bodies of seven more
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Speaker 1: victims were found. Two teen boys were the first victims.
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Speaker 1: Fourteen year old Edward Hope Smith was missing for seven days.
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Speaker 1: He was last seen at the Greenbriar skating rink. Alfred Evans, thirteen,
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Speaker 1: had just graduated seventh grade. He was missing for three
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Speaker 1: days after disappearing from Eastlake Meadows Housing Project. Their bodies
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Speaker 1: were found in a wooded area off Nisky Lake Road,
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Speaker 1: southwest of downtown Atlanta. The location was just two miles
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Speaker 1: from where Smith was last seen. How did it all start?
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to what went down in July July
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Speaker 1: twenty eighth to be exact. You were just sharing our
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Speaker 1: friends at crime online dot com and XIA. Now listen
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Speaker 1: to our friends at CBS. On July twenty eighth, a
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Speaker 1: woman was walking along this wooded road looking for aluminum
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Speaker 1: cans to turn in for money. When she approached this embankment.
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Speaker 1: People often dump things from passing cars. Here at the
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Speaker 1: bottom she saw a body which had also presumably been
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Speaker 1: dumped from a car the previous night. It was fourteen
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Speaker 1: year old Edward Smith. He had left home eight days
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Speaker 1: earlier to go to a skating rink. He had been
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Speaker 1: shot to death nearby laid the body of his friend,
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Speaker 1: thirteen year old Alfred Evans, He had disappeared on his
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Speaker 1: way to the movie three days earlier. Police were unable
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Speaker 1: to say how he was killed. With me and Alstar
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Speaker 1: pound to make sense of what we know right now
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Speaker 1: with the body count rising, people living in fear, not
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Speaker 1: letting their children go outside for fear the children, especially
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Speaker 1: the boys, would be snatched off the street. The district
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Speaker 1: attorney's office was in a tumult with me, high profile
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Speaker 1: lawyer joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Joseph J.
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Speaker 1: Drouet a author of the Pursuit of the Atlanta Child Killer, Facts,
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Speaker 1: Fibers and Forensics on Amazon. Now, now that's the title,
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Speaker 1: Joseph drol The Pursuit of the Atlanta Child Killer, Facts,
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Speaker 1: Fibers and Forensics. Before I go to the rest of
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Speaker 1: our All Star panel, I want to go to Joseph
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Speaker 1: Drole first. Drole. Do you remember the first time you
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Speaker 1: ever saw a dead body? Yes, I do. When was it?
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Speaker 1: It was when I was with the District Attorney's office
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Speaker 1: when I first started, and we went and watched an autopsy.
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Speaker 1: Oh the good old days at the more watching autopsies,
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Speaker 1: the good old days watching out auntapsy and seeing Saniel
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Speaker 1: good may get through. It's one thing for you or
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Speaker 1: I to see a dead body, because we're used to
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Speaker 1: it now. I remember the first time I saw a
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Speaker 1: dead body in my official capacity as an assistant DA
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Speaker 1: along with you, and I will never forget it as
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Speaker 1: long as I live. But for people in Atlanta to
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Speaker 1: just look over and see a little boy that goes
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Speaker 1: missing from a skating rink and there you look down
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Speaker 1: and you see a dead body. That's a shock to
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Speaker 1: a civilian. It was a shock, I think, Nancy, to
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Speaker 1: everyone that continued unabated for a long time, to the
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Speaker 1: point that it became a frightening and terrifying I think
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Speaker 1: for everybody in the Atlanta metropolitan area. And then somehow,
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Speaker 1: Joseph J. Drole, you ended up as one of the
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Speaker 1: five very brave lawyers to take this on, joining me
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Speaker 1: a longtime friend and colleague, former Deputy Chief of Police
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Speaker 1: in the APD, Lou Archangely, Lou, it's great to hear
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Speaker 1: your voice again. I know you recall the fear and
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Speaker 1: the terror under which everybody was living in Atlanta. Describe
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Speaker 1: it for our listeners that were not there when it
6:12
Speaker 1: all started. Oh, it was. It was horrible because of
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Speaker 1: the uncertainty. At one point there were five In November
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Speaker 1: of that year, there were five children missing at the
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Speaker 1: same time, all of them between ten and fourteen years old,
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Speaker 1: you know, And of course the real tragedy is one
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Speaker 1: of these children, Darren Glass, has never been found. His
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Speaker 1: body is still missing. You know, I can't even imagine that,
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Speaker 1: Lou Archangelo. Every day, every night on the news, you
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Speaker 1: see another child missing. You said five were between did
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Speaker 1: you say nine and fourteen? That was at one point
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Speaker 1: there were five children missing at the same time. But
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Speaker 1: for months there was four missing, three missing, and then
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Speaker 1: ultimately the last wanted to be found was Nathaniel Kat
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Speaker 1: was an adult. He was jumped in the river because
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Speaker 1: the perpetrator evolved evolved. Yeah, and that's very unusual, you know,
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Speaker 1: to doctor Todd m Bar pathologists joining us. He testified
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Speaker 1: in the Shawn great serial killer case. Doctor Barr, thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. People believe that serial killers
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Speaker 1: never change their m O, their modus operandi, their method
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Speaker 1: of operation. So when you see some little boys strangle
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Speaker 1: Dad and then another victim ends up in the water
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Speaker 1: the Chattahoochee, to be exact, many people go, oh, that's
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Speaker 1: not the same killer because there's a different m That's
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Speaker 1: not true, doctor Barr. Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely not true.
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Speaker 1: I've worked on a couple of serial killer cases, and
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Speaker 1: you know, I think the term evolution is an appropriate term.
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Speaker 1: I've seen them go from you know, strangulation and they
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Speaker 1: keep the same modus operandi to uh, you know, uh
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Speaker 1: strangulation with with the evolution to burning them in a car,
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Speaker 1: that type of thing. So, uh yeah, you can't just
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Speaker 1: jump to conclusions if it's not the exact same motive operation. Yeah,
8:16
Speaker 1: perfect example, Joseph J. Drala. We had a then lawyer
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Speaker 1: in our office, Henry Newkirk, that had been a cop
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Speaker 1: in Florida during the Kyo killings. Remember Ted Bundy. Ted
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Speaker 1: BUNDY'SMO changed drastically. He went from picking people up at
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Speaker 1: the beach or in his Volkswagen to clubbing them dead
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Speaker 1: in their sorority house. So that's a perfect example of
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Speaker 1: how m's method of operation can change for serial killers, right, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: I think there's a Joseph gla. I think also the
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Speaker 1: profile is that the FBI said that the serial killers
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Speaker 1: do they change based on the circumstances. And then this case,
9:00
Speaker 1: of course, the changes including dropping bodies in the river,
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Speaker 1: were because evidence was being found the fibers that could
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Speaker 1: identify the killer, and suddenly bodies started showing up in
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Speaker 1: the river without the clothes on. Wow, Joseph, when you
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Speaker 1: say that again one more time about how the MO
9:20
Speaker 1: change after it got out about the fibers. Right, The
9:23
Speaker 1: fibers started being noticed, and by the early spring of
9:27
Speaker 1: the second year, the Georgia Barreau of investigation knew what
9:31
Speaker 1: they were looking for. They were looking for a location
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Speaker 1: that had a green carpet that had some sort of
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Speaker 1: violet acetate fiber on some item, and it had a dog,
9:47
Speaker 1: probably a German shepherd that got out into the newspapers.
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Speaker 1: This was in February and from then forward most of
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Speaker 1: the victims ended up in the river. Jimmy ray Payne
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Speaker 1: was wearing only his shorts red cotton shorts. Nathaniel Cat
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Speaker 1: was naked. Guys the body count rises take a listen
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Speaker 1: to our friends at crime Online and CBS. Two more
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Speaker 1: victims would be found that same year. Nine year old
10:15
Speaker 1: use Of Bell's body is discovered in an abandoned elementary school.
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Speaker 1: His body had been stuffed in a crawl space. Bell
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Speaker 1: was last seen getting into a car on October twenty first.
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Speaker 1: Not quite a month later, the body of fourteen year
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Speaker 1: old Milton Harvey was found discarded on a road in
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Speaker 1: Fulton County. Harvey had actually gone missing before Bell. He
10:37
Speaker 1: was last seen on his bike September fourth, but his
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Speaker 1: body wasn't discovered until November. In November, two more bodies
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Speaker 1: were found. Fourteen year old Milton Harvey was found on
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Speaker 1: the fifth Well. He's unable to say how he died,
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Speaker 1: and three days later, nine year old Yusef Bell. He
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Speaker 1: had been strangled. Nineteen eighty came and children continue to
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Speaker 1: disappear and die. All were poor. All disappeared from shopping
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Speaker 1: centers which they frequented in hopes of picking up some
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Speaker 1: change by helping people with their bags. Not all, but
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Speaker 1: most were street kids from single parents are broken homes.
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Speaker 1: All but two were boys. Ages range from seven to sixteen.
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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. I want to go to
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Speaker 1: Verne Smith, a special guest joining us, formerly Newsweek Atlanta
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Speaker 1: bureau chief and national correspondent, author of The Jones Men. Verne,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. My pleasure the fact
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Speaker 1: that the children were taken in various ways. Some were
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Speaker 1: riding their bikes, others were on the street, and that
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Speaker 1: they were found in so many different places. One stuffed
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Speaker 1: in a crawl space in a band and in elementary school,
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Speaker 1: others in the water and the Chattahoochee. Others are tossed
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Speaker 1: off by a road. That makes it even more difficult.
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Speaker 1: What do you recall? You know, the thing that lingers
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Speaker 1: for me. You know, something that's been mentioned earlier is
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Speaker 1: the what it felt like to be in a situation
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Speaker 1: where there is an unknown terror of literally stalking the community,
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Speaker 1: and so that the sense of just panic and regular
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Speaker 1: citizens not trusting people that previously they had not thought
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Speaker 1: anything negative about it, just kind of had this kind
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Speaker 1: of paralyzing fear of the unknown, which which I think
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Speaker 1: is just something that you have to kind of experience
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Speaker 1: to understand what that was like. You know, Joseph's drew away.
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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even let my children out the door with
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Speaker 1: this going on, That's true, and most people kept their
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Speaker 1: children home. And that's why I think the ages of
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Speaker 1: the victims started going up because it was more and
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Speaker 1: more difficult that and a curview that was imposed made
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Speaker 1: it very, very difficult to find the younger children. So
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Speaker 1: the ages of the victims started climbing as the cases
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Speaker 1: went on and they increased in frequency. What do you
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Speaker 1: recall about it, Former Deputy Chief Police APD. Lou Archangel, Well,
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Speaker 1: the terror extended far beyond Atlanta. I mean, people that
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Speaker 1: I knew in Alabama were concerned and we're bringing their
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Speaker 1: children in. But even though there was never any evidence
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Speaker 1: that the killings spread beyond metro Atlanta, but even I
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Speaker 1: mean Paris, France had things in the newspaper, had articles
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Speaker 1: in the newspaper about missing children. Children have a special
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Speaker 1: place in our heart, and when they're victimized anywhere, it
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Speaker 1: strikes fear everywhere. I'm just thinking back, Lou, about the
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Speaker 1: witness that looks over and sees a dead little boy. Oh,
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Speaker 1: I actually saw one of those victims in the morgue,
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Speaker 1: and what struck me was. It was so little and
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Speaker 1: so skinny. I mean it it was hard to watch.
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Speaker 1: Even as a homicide detective. It was hard to see
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Speaker 1: the body of a young child. What was going on
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Speaker 1: amongst it Atlanta homicide during all of this, well, at
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Speaker 1: first they didn't recognize the pattern because everything was changing.
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Speaker 1: We had victims that were shot, stabbed, undetermined, asphyxiated, and
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Speaker 1: so there was confusion at the start of the case.
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Speaker 1: But ultimately they figured out the pattern that was similar
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Speaker 1: was the age of the victims and it was all
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Speaker 1: children up for the first year of this all children
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Speaker 1: take Listen to our friends at CBS. They have died
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Speaker 1: in many ways, shot, staff, ludgeon, but most all of
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Speaker 1: the recent ones have been strangled or asphyxiated. In some
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Speaker 1: cases the bodies were laid out in full view on
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Speaker 1: their backs with arms and legs extended. Others have been
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Speaker 1: thrown down an embankment, into a river under a building.
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Speaker 1: There are things that suggest drugs, sexual deviation, or cult ritual.
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Speaker 1: There are many theories, but nobody is in jail. The
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Speaker 1: tension and the terror mounting throughout the city of Atlanta,
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Speaker 1: and beyond what you were hearing in the background, there
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Speaker 1: was funeral footage of one of these little boys, and
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Speaker 1: I keep thinking about what former Deputy Chief lou archangel
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Speaker 1: I just said seeing the little boy's body, how tiny
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Speaker 1: and skinny he was. To doctor Jorry Krasen, joining US
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Speaker 1: psychologist faculty Saint Leo University, an author of operations, Doctor
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Speaker 1: Jory Crawsen, thank you for being with us. Who in
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Speaker 1: the world would stab a little boy or shoot a
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Speaker 1: seven eight nine year old little boy? Well, you know,
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Speaker 1: I always look at behavior, and we heard the term evolved.
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Speaker 1: What I really see in research shows it's a maturation. Okay.
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Speaker 1: It starts out like you look at where the children
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Speaker 1: were taken from, and that's kind of a predatory hunting style. Okay,
16:46
Speaker 1: there's no force, you know, it's not like it's a
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Speaker 1: blitz attack. There's got to be some means of an
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Speaker 1: interaction and maybe even get the victim to willingly come
16:55
Speaker 1: with you to a certain point before you initiate the
17:00
Speaker 1: process of killing them. To Joseph J. Droli, former prosecutor
17:04
Speaker 1: and author of a brand new book, The Pursuit of
17:08
Speaker 1: the Atlanta Child Killer, Facts, Fibers and Forensics. It's an
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Speaker 1: incredible work. Joseph Drole it's on Amazon right now, Joseph.
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Speaker 1: Were the boys sex assaulted before they were murdered? No,
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Speaker 1: there is no evidence of that. Of the research certainly
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Speaker 1: a sexual component. Take Lost Our Friends at NBC. Aaron
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Speaker 1: Jackson Junior was among the youngest, only nine years old.
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Speaker 1: Luby Jeter was fourteen, Timothy Hill thirteen, Patrick Valtazar eleven.
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Speaker 1: For almost two years, the bodies have kept coming out
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Speaker 1: of Atlanta's rivers and woods, and week after week police
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Speaker 1: speak of sorrow but not a solution. At Police Task
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Speaker 1: Force headquarters, there are twenty seven faces on the wall,
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Speaker 1: twenty six murdered, one missing the killer. There was a
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Speaker 1: handful of sketches. No one the same wasn't certain to
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Speaker 1: be the person police want. Almost a year after the
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Speaker 1: task force was set up, police can't answer food before why.
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Speaker 1: They don't know how or where, or even how many
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Speaker 1: of the victims may have been killed by the same person.
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Speaker 1: One investigator says, even if the killer walked in the
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Speaker 1: door and confessed, there is not enough evidence now to
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Speaker 1: convict him. Lou Arc Angeuly, former Deputy Chief of Police APD,
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Speaker 1: what at that time of the killer walked in and confessed,
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Speaker 1: You guys didn't have enough to convict him. Oh, that's
18:32
Speaker 1: not true at all. That was a perception in the
18:35
Speaker 1: public and that was certainly reported. But Larry Peterson at
18:39
Speaker 1: the crime lab and the Fulton County Medical examiners and
18:42
Speaker 1: others had found significant evidence evidence like what they had
18:47
Speaker 1: dog hair, They had fibers. They had the unique whelming
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Speaker 1: Trilobal carpet fiber that was very unique that was shown
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Speaker 1: up on it eventually showed up on twenty of the victims.
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Speaker 1: Carpet fiber. Yes, hold on, I'm going to circle back
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Speaker 1: to Joseph Droul on that speaking of fiber, listen to NBC.
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Speaker 1: The killer seems to taunt police and read press clippings
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Speaker 1: I feel well publicized but feudal search along the road
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Speaker 1: in an outlying county. The next child strangled with a
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Speaker 1: rope was dumped there, and when a suburban police official
19:20
Speaker 1: criticized Atlanta's investigation, a child choked to death was left
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Speaker 1: just inside that official's county line. After a press report
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Speaker 1: that police had found fibers on some of the bodies,
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Speaker 1: Six of the last seven victims have been dropped into rivers,
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Speaker 1: all stripped to their undershorts or less, possibly to wash
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Speaker 1: away evidence. Okay, Joseph Droule, the fiber is what linking
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Speaker 1: all of these boy victims together. Nancy. It is significant
19:48
Speaker 1: that the Larry Peterson went to a number of the victims'
19:52
Speaker 1: homes and paint fibers and did exclusionary evidence. You can't.
19:59
Speaker 1: They never ooomed anything. They wanted to know the source
20:03
Speaker 1: of the fibers, and they had to make sure that
20:05
Speaker 1: these fibers weren't in a common part of the victims environment,
20:09
Speaker 1: that these fibers all came from the same environment as
20:13
Speaker 1: the perpetrator. You know, lou archangel He just says something
20:16
Speaker 1: so important because, as you will remember, Joseph Drola, when
20:21
Speaker 1: I tried cases, I would not only try to put
20:24
Speaker 1: together my case, but to anticipate what the other side
20:29
Speaker 1: was going to say and destroy it before they could
20:32
Speaker 1: even say it. And that's exactly what you're saying, Archangelly
20:38
Speaker 1: that once this fiber connection, these very unique fibers were
20:43
Speaker 1: found on multiple victims, not all, but many of them.
20:48
Speaker 1: How many, Joseph had the same fibers on them, Well,
20:51
Speaker 1: fifteen had the Wellman fiber, twenty one had the vialid ascetate,
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Speaker 1: and eighteen had the dog hairs. But the beauty of
20:59
Speaker 1: this is grow outlines so well in the book. It's
21:03
Speaker 1: crystal clear how the fibers are tied together, how the
21:06
Speaker 1: crime lab collected them. How do you do that, doctor,
21:10
Speaker 1: bar How do you get fibers off a body? Yeah,
21:15
Speaker 1: I mean that you can't see them. They're visible to
21:18
Speaker 1: the naked eye, right, And we have these stereotactical microscopes
21:23
Speaker 1: that we look at the bodies with if we're looking
21:25
Speaker 1: for certain types of trace evidence that you can actually
21:29
Speaker 1: zoom in and take a very close up look with
21:33
Speaker 1: these these high powerful microscopes, and you can detect these
21:37
Speaker 1: fibers and then collect them and preserve them. The fibers
21:41
Speaker 1: in this case, Nancy, were obvious enough that Larry Peterson,
21:46
Speaker 1: as he went to scenes, he would see them in
21:48
Speaker 1: the hair and on the clothing of the victims and
21:53
Speaker 1: pull them off and place them on slides to take
21:56
Speaker 1: back to the lab. So they and many of them,
22:00
Speaker 1: number of fibers you know, that were it was obvious
22:03
Speaker 1: that wherever they were immediately prior to death, you know,
22:07
Speaker 1: this was the source of the fibers on them, their
22:10
Speaker 1: carpet fibers. You said, the violent fibers and the dog
22:14
Speaker 1: here showing up one on twenty one victims one on
22:20
Speaker 1: eighteen victims can't be ignored it. As lou Archangel points out,
22:25
Speaker 1: investigators would then go to the victims family home, take
22:30
Speaker 1: fibers from their carpet, around their home, bedspreads, and so
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Speaker 1: forth to make sure these fibers weren't from the home
22:37
Speaker 1: to rule that out. Verne Smith joining US former Newsweek
22:40
Speaker 1: Atlanta bureau chief and national correspondent, When did you first
22:45
Speaker 1: find out? Do you remember finding out the coincidence and
22:49
Speaker 1: of course there is no coincidence in criminal law that
22:52
Speaker 1: these same fibers were on multiple victims. Well, you know,
22:57
Speaker 1: the local newspaper for the the Ajac, the Land Journal Constitution,
23:03
Speaker 1: first broke that story. But UM, some of the forensic
23:11
Speaker 1: um investigators privately we were saying that they were finding
23:20
Speaker 1: links in the later Barty body. So UM for much
23:28
Speaker 1: of of of seventy nine and eighty, uh, the official
23:33
Speaker 1: police word was that, UM, they didn't know whether they
23:36
Speaker 1: were all, whether we were, whether we were looking for
23:40
Speaker 1: multiple killers or single killer. UM. And so for for
23:46
Speaker 1: a while we were under that assumption that they weren't connected.
23:53
Speaker 1: But that was really a stunning moment when you know
23:57
Speaker 1: it was revealed that there was in fact an and
24:00
Speaker 1: you know another thing about the fibers based on what
24:03
Speaker 1: Verne Smith just says, doctor Jory, we hear that as
24:07
Speaker 1: soon as it comes out, as it's led out, which
24:10
Speaker 1: I wish it hattened men that fibers were involved, suddenly
24:14
Speaker 1: the body start turning up naked. So this is a
24:18
Speaker 1: very cunning killer. Yeah, that's part of that maturation and
24:22
Speaker 1: changing of operation. You know, he's learning as he's I
24:27
Speaker 1: guess progressing is the word that I would use, But
24:30
Speaker 1: that's the maturation process and serial killers. Take listen now,
24:34
Speaker 1: a big break in the case. Take us in our
24:36
Speaker 1: friends at truth. The surveillance of Atlanta's bridges pays off
24:40
Speaker 1: a policeman. Here is what could be a body hitting
24:43
Speaker 1: the water. According to the record in the case, three
24:47
Speaker 1: o'clock am in the morning, Robert Campbell, who was a
24:50
Speaker 1: young police recruit under the bridge, her displash and then
24:57
Speaker 1: so lights come on on a vehicle, and so the
25:00
Speaker 1: vehicle slowly began to move in a southerly direction across
25:04
Speaker 1: the bridge. Wayne Williams admits he was on the bridge
25:08
Speaker 1: that night, but he says he did not stop and
25:11
Speaker 1: did not throw anything into the river. When the police
25:14
Speaker 1: followed and stop him near the bridge, Williams cooperates fully.
25:19
Speaker 1: They questioned him some more, searched the car, and then
25:22
Speaker 1: they let him go. Three days later, on May twenty fourth,
25:25
Speaker 1: the body of Nathaniel Cater was found less than a
25:28
Speaker 1: mile down stream from the Jackson Parplay Bridge. The oldest
25:31
Speaker 1: victim yet twenty seventh was found in the Chattahoochee River.
25:35
Speaker 1: With this discovery, the authorities decide that Wayne Williams is
25:39
Speaker 1: the prime suspect. You know, help me out here, Joseph
25:42
Speaker 1: Drew Lay. He has just come out with a book
25:45
Speaker 1: who actually worked this case? A landmark case when the
25:49
Speaker 1: first times fiber evidence of this magnitude had been used
25:55
Speaker 1: in court. Fiber evidence of this ilk Joseph. So you've
26:01
Speaker 1: got Wayne Williams and meetings on the bridge the night
26:06
Speaker 1: a victim is thrown over the side of the bridge,
26:09
Speaker 1: a dead victim. Luckily, somebody, either you guys at the
26:14
Speaker 1: DA's office or you guys lew Archangel at APD, had
26:18
Speaker 1: the brilliant idea to start surveiling bridges. It paid off.
26:23
Speaker 1: This cop actually hears the splash he's sitting there in
26:28
Speaker 1: the dark. He hears a splash and then lights turn
26:32
Speaker 1: on and there he goes a car and the cop
26:35
Speaker 1: sees it's Wayne Williams. I mean he sees the car,
26:39
Speaker 1: doesn't he. Joseph and he didn't see the car. He
26:42
Speaker 1: saw the lights and her radio. Freddy Jacobs, who was
26:45
Speaker 1: at the end of the bridge and the bushes. Freddy
26:47
Speaker 1: leaned out and said, there's a car. It's coming from
26:50
Speaker 1: a stop position right up against the rail and has
26:54
Speaker 1: coming toward me. He watched that car then come toward
26:57
Speaker 1: him and make a U turn in a gravel parking
27:01
Speaker 1: lot at the end of the bridge, where he was
27:04
Speaker 1: seen there by Officer Holden, who was in a catch
27:08
Speaker 1: car and holding pulls in behind him as he heads
27:12
Speaker 1: back north over the bridge, so he backtracked. He dropped
27:17
Speaker 1: the body, goes to the end of the bridge, turns
27:20
Speaker 1: around and heads back the other way. Nancy, What's significant
27:24
Speaker 1: about the bridge was we all thought it was a mistake.
27:27
Speaker 1: When doctor Howard mentioned that he had fibers linking several
27:31
Speaker 1: of the victims. We thought, oh my god, why would
27:34
Speaker 1: he release that. Well, as it turned out, it was
27:37
Speaker 1: that release that compelled Wayne Williams to dump Aaron Jackson
27:42
Speaker 1: under a bridge. Patrick Baltazar dumped under a bridge, but
27:45
Speaker 1: those two didn't even hit the water, they just landed
27:49
Speaker 1: on ground. Well, then he of course matured. As the
27:52
Speaker 1: doctor said, Curtis Walker was found in South River Jojo
27:56
Speaker 1: Bell in the South River. Doctor Howard, by leasing that
28:00
Speaker 1: fiber link compelled the perpetrator, Wayne Williams to start using bridges.
28:07
Speaker 1: And then the FBI came up with the idea of
28:10
Speaker 1: investing a huge amount of manpower to put four cups
28:13
Speaker 1: on every bridge along the Chattahoochee and South rivers. And
28:18
Speaker 1: on the very last day of the surveillance is when
28:21
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams, because he was now using bridges, he was
28:24
Speaker 1: more concentrated. We could stake it out and that's what
28:27
Speaker 1: led to his arrest, to his contact with police on
28:31
Speaker 1: the bridge. For those of you that worked intimately on
28:35
Speaker 1: the case, lou Archangel, Joseph dro La Verne Smith who
28:38
Speaker 1: covered it, what was being done to the little boys,
28:44
Speaker 1: if they were not being sex assaulted, what was happening,
28:48
Speaker 1: Joseph Drola, They were being mostly strangled, and I think
28:54
Speaker 1: you know there was one one victim that got away
28:58
Speaker 1: a young man who was up by Wayne Williams in
29:01
Speaker 1: the middle of the night breaking into newspaper boxes to
29:04
Speaker 1: steal the change. And Williams took this young man, drove
29:10
Speaker 1: him around, asked him various questions, then asked him if
29:13
Speaker 1: he wanted to make some money, asked him if he
29:16
Speaker 1: had money, where he still rent touched his penis, and
29:20
Speaker 1: then william said, I need to get something out of
29:23
Speaker 1: the back of the car, and he went got out
29:26
Speaker 1: of the car, and this young man got the heck
29:29
Speaker 1: out of there and ran and was able to testify
29:33
Speaker 1: a trial about that. Williams targeted these people. They were
29:38
Speaker 1: all vulnerable young people out on the street, many of them,
29:42
Speaker 1: and he told many many people that these people shouldn't
29:47
Speaker 1: be on the streets. So I guess he thought he
29:50
Speaker 1: was doing the police a favor by getting kids off
29:53
Speaker 1: the street by killing them. That he expressed sentiments something
29:57
Speaker 1: along those lines. There were four or five I have
30:00
Speaker 1: witnesses at trials have testified about that that he said
30:05
Speaker 1: exactly that kind of thing that he would then, you know,
30:10
Speaker 1: would then mostly strangle these young men and then disposed
30:15
Speaker 1: of their bodies. They never were found where where they
30:18
Speaker 1: were killed. They were placed different places along roadsides in
30:23
Speaker 1: certain positions. Uh. Some laid out very very carefully. Some
30:27
Speaker 1: had ritualistic little stab wounds on them. A number of them,
30:33
Speaker 1: in addition to dying of asphyxia, had been struck in
30:36
Speaker 1: the head, so he may have subdued them at some
30:39
Speaker 1: point prior to, uh to killing them by by asphyxia.
30:59
Speaker 1: Fun stories with Nancy Grace. I want to talk about
31:03
Speaker 1: Lane Williams and I want to talk about this fiber evidence.
31:06
Speaker 1: Joseph Drewe. It's all laid out in your brand new book,
31:09
Speaker 1: A Blockbuster Hit, The Pursuit of the Atlanta Child Killer Facts,
31:14
Speaker 1: Fibers and Forensics. It's on Amazon right now. Joseph, question,
31:18
Speaker 1: after all the fibers that were detected on the bodies
31:23
Speaker 1: and on their clothing when there was clothing on them,
31:26
Speaker 1: to where did the fibers relate? I mean, where did
31:30
Speaker 1: they connect, Where did they from? Where did they come? Well,
31:33
Speaker 1: the Carbet fiber was wald wall carbet in the William's home.
31:40
Speaker 1: When the police and Larry Peterson, the prime lad of
31:43
Speaker 1: people went with the surge warrant on June third, they
31:48
Speaker 1: go to the home and they find a home that
31:50
Speaker 1: is wall to wall in this green fiber. English olive
31:54
Speaker 1: was the color of green English? What English olive? So
31:58
Speaker 1: you still remember English? Yes, absolutely, And it's this unusual
32:03
Speaker 1: trilobal fiber with the short one short leg and two
32:06
Speaker 1: long legs. They go in way William's bedroom and there
32:10
Speaker 1: is a violet ascetate bedspread which is interwoven with green
32:15
Speaker 1: cotton fiber, and of course that's being found on the victims.
32:19
Speaker 1: They look in the backyard and there's a German shepherd dog.
32:24
Speaker 1: So they have found the source of the fibers that
32:28
Speaker 1: they are finding on so many of the victims. Joseph,
32:32
Speaker 1: how do you believe the fibers got onto the victims?
32:34
Speaker 1: Did he actually bring them to his home? I don't
32:37
Speaker 1: think so. He could have, but it is more likely that,
32:40
Speaker 1: like the witnesses that we had, that he lured them
32:43
Speaker 1: into his car and the car as he would track
32:46
Speaker 1: things from the house into the car, and his family,
32:50
Speaker 1: his mother and father would track everything in the house,
32:53
Speaker 1: would track into the car. So what the crime lab
32:58
Speaker 1: people discovered was on the floors of the car. It
33:03
Speaker 1: was if you swept up what was in there, you
33:06
Speaker 1: would find fibers from all the different things in the
33:09
Speaker 1: house that would yield fibers, so bathmats and rugs and
33:15
Speaker 1: carpets and blankets, all of that would be found in
33:19
Speaker 1: the cars, so they didn't have to actually be in
33:21
Speaker 1: the house and most probably they weren't, Nathew. This is
33:24
Speaker 1: this is the theory of transfer that your doctor guests
33:27
Speaker 1: can refer to. Every time there's an interaction physical interaction,
33:32
Speaker 1: something's left and something's taken. And in this case, when
33:36
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams was smothering these children, and there were over
33:39
Speaker 1: six hundred fibers introduced to trial, nine different types, and
33:44
Speaker 1: ultimately they even found human hairs on the body of
33:48
Speaker 1: Patrick Baltazar that were linked by BNA to Wayne Williams.
33:52
Speaker 1: But yet people still insist, there are people that insist
33:56
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams is in a set. Take a less into
34:00
Speaker 1: our cut. Four WXIA prosecutors ultimately tied Williams to the
34:05
Speaker 1: depths of twenty two victims through carpet fiber evidence and witnesses.
34:10
Speaker 1: Not everyone believed his guilt. There were doubters. I don't
34:14
Speaker 1: believe why william did it. I really don't believe that
34:18
Speaker 1: he did it. In two thousand and five to cab
34:20
Speaker 1: County Police Chief Lewis Graham reopened by cases in his jurisdiction,
34:25
Speaker 1: but nothing to exonerate Williams came from it. To this day,
34:29
Speaker 1: Joseph J. Drole, people insist Wayne Williams is innocent. Now,
34:35
Speaker 1: there were thirty murders. We believe Williams was convicted on
34:42
Speaker 1: a handful of those. There's a movement afoot to have
34:48
Speaker 1: evidence reexamined from the other victims. But my question to
34:54
Speaker 1: you now, Joseph, is what other evidence links Wayne william
35:00
Speaker 1: to many of the boys murners. Well, there were a
35:06
Speaker 1: variety of things as linked. I mean, you had eyewitnesses
35:09
Speaker 1: of various kinds, and of course we presented ten other
35:13
Speaker 1: murders at the trial, so there were twelve murders actually
35:18
Speaker 1: proven at the trial. So you had that there were
35:23
Speaker 1: victims who had fibers from different cars that Lame Williams drove.
35:29
Speaker 1: And this is in addition to the constant fibers from
35:34
Speaker 1: the home, which were probably in the car. There were
35:37
Speaker 1: also the fibers from the car, and there were fibers
35:42
Speaker 1: from thirteen different cars. Thirteen different victims should I say,
35:49
Speaker 1: had fibers from the cars, and as Williams would change cars,
35:54
Speaker 1: the fibers would change as that were found on the victims. Interesting,
35:58
Speaker 1: So all of this was leading back to Wayne William's
36:01
Speaker 1: home and his cars and a very very unique carpet
36:06
Speaker 1: analysis and carpet fibers. Isn't it true, Joseph Droua, that
36:11
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams injected himself in the media business TV radio
36:18
Speaker 1: and he would somehow be the first stringer on the
36:23
Speaker 1: scene of a crime, getting video before any other TV
36:26
Speaker 1: crew would get there, right, and he had scanning equipment
36:30
Speaker 1: in this car. A lot of people thought he was
36:32
Speaker 1: a police officer, and the first car that we linked
36:36
Speaker 1: to him was a Plymouth car that he had decked
36:39
Speaker 1: out as a police car with a blue light, with
36:43
Speaker 1: police radio, scanner, the whole works. So he knew what
36:48
Speaker 1: was going on, and many people thought he was a
36:52
Speaker 1: police officer, that he had a police jacket that was
36:56
Speaker 1: discovered after the trial. And then he moved on to
36:59
Speaker 1: being a TV person, a cameraman, a stringer, as he said,
37:06
Speaker 1: and that put him at the scenes of things. Lou Archangel,
37:11
Speaker 1: did any of the cops notice that this guy Wayne Williams,
37:14
Speaker 1: who sometimes dressed up like a cop, kept showing up
37:17
Speaker 1: the first one on every crime scene obviously because he
37:20
Speaker 1: knew about the crime scene before anybody else. But did
37:23
Speaker 1: anyone put that together? No, they didn't. He actually showed
37:26
Speaker 1: up on one of my crime scenes. But he worked
37:28
Speaker 1: for WSB. He would sell footage of fires and wrecks
37:32
Speaker 1: and homicide crime scenes to WSPTV. But he was a
37:37
Speaker 1: frequent He was frequently present at crime scenes and he
37:41
Speaker 1: had a police scanner. Who is this guy, Joseph Droleet.
37:46
Speaker 1: I know, he's an only child. Both parents were teachers,
37:50
Speaker 1: and they doated on him. I mean they even set
37:53
Speaker 1: up his own radio station in the home. That's correct,
37:58
Speaker 1: And so he was very much a child who his
38:02
Speaker 1: parents would do anything for. And he was in many
38:05
Speaker 1: ways controlling of his parents, and a lot of evidence
38:09
Speaker 1: of that came out during the case that he ordered
38:13
Speaker 1: them around and what why why? What? How would he
38:16
Speaker 1: order the parents around? There are testimony at trial even
38:20
Speaker 1: yelled at them once and said, you know, you'd better
38:23
Speaker 1: not come home and things like that because they wouldn't
38:26
Speaker 1: rent another car for him. Uh. There were evidence of
38:30
Speaker 1: him assaulting his father. So there are a lot of
38:35
Speaker 1: things where they created, you know, this child who who
38:41
Speaker 1: dominated them? Did they help cover up evidence? Do you think, Joseph, oh,
38:45
Speaker 1: I certainly think they knew a great deal more than
38:48
Speaker 1: they let and his mother, I think he would say
38:54
Speaker 1: live for him at different times, including a trial. His
38:59
Speaker 1: father had to know a great deal more than he
39:02
Speaker 1: ever said. And they covered for Wayne completely, you know.
39:07
Speaker 1: They they tried to back up his story about this
39:12
Speaker 1: Cheryl Johnson, this phantom woman that was never found that
39:16
Speaker 1: he planned he was out looking for when he was
39:20
Speaker 1: when he was stopped on the bridge or near the bridge,
39:23
Speaker 1: I should say, was there a circumstance where the father
39:27
Speaker 1: was destroying evidence in the backyard. Yes, and we don't
39:32
Speaker 1: know exactly what it was. They were photographs that were
39:35
Speaker 1: burned in the barbecue pit, black and white photographs. All
39:40
Speaker 1: that was left. It was the remnants of them. And
39:42
Speaker 1: he couldn't tell actually what was in there. But they
39:44
Speaker 1: hadn't done that apparently after Wayne Williams was stopped on
39:49
Speaker 1: the bridge and he went home, and I think some
39:52
Speaker 1: of the neighbors had had even said that there was
39:55
Speaker 1: something something burning out in the barbecue pit in the backyard. Joseph,
39:59
Speaker 1: what was a lot sitting in that courtroom with our
40:03
Speaker 1: boss Lewis Layton and a team a brain Trust trying
40:07
Speaker 1: this case. Well, it was. It was something that was
40:11
Speaker 1: completely engrossing and I could think of nothing else from
40:15
Speaker 1: the time I got involved in the case until the
40:21
Speaker 1: flial was over. And of course it has continued to
40:24
Speaker 1: be something that has come up repeatedly over the last
40:28
Speaker 1: forty years as evidences looked into. It was reopened in
40:34
Speaker 1: two thousand and five. It was DNA testing. There's been
40:38
Speaker 1: movies about it, and more recently, former Mayor Kesel Lance
40:45
Speaker 1: Bottoms had asked the police department in the DA's office
40:48
Speaker 1: to look into it again. They've been doing that for
40:51
Speaker 1: three years. Nothing has changed. There's nothing that would indicate
40:54
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams is not guilty. What about some client that
40:57
Speaker 1: the clan? I hadn't even say the word it's involved. Yeah,
41:02
Speaker 1: that was another interesting development. Two years after the trial,
41:08
Speaker 1: the director of the GBI came to the office and said,
41:12
Speaker 1: there's something I got to tell you. During this investigation,
41:15
Speaker 1: we also investigated the clan and we did a separate
41:18
Speaker 1: investigation in March and April before Wayne Wims was ever
41:24
Speaker 1: even a suspect, and we had them under surveillance and
41:29
Speaker 1: we took samples of things and we watched them and
41:35
Speaker 1: we couldn't find anything. There was no evidence the clan
41:38
Speaker 1: was involved. You know what, Joseph, I guess you said,
41:41
Speaker 1: thanks for telling me. Now anyway, right showed nothing that
41:46
Speaker 1: became a big, big story, you know that, Oh the clan.
41:50
Speaker 1: There was a clan investigation and it was secret. It
41:53
Speaker 1: ended up it was begun and concluded with no evidence
41:58
Speaker 1: of plan involvement before or Wayne Williams ever became a
42:02
Speaker 1: suspector was stopped on them on or near the bridge. Okay,
42:05
Speaker 1: I've got a question, Joseph, that I want to clear up.
42:09
Speaker 1: Are there victims that were never officially proven connected to
42:15
Speaker 1: Williams and do you support reanalyzing the evidence in those cases. Sure,
42:22
Speaker 1: and that's what that's what a group has been doing.
42:25
Speaker 1: You know, folks from the DA's office and the police
42:29
Speaker 1: department are looking at it, and we may find out
42:31
Speaker 1: Williams kill them too, or we may find out he didn't.
42:35
Speaker 1: I'm all for the retesting of that evidence to find
42:39
Speaker 1: out if we can now who murdered those children and
42:44
Speaker 1: young men. When you look back on it, Joseph J. Drouet,
42:49
Speaker 1: what's your takeaway? I mean, obviously it's haunted you to
42:53
Speaker 1: the point you wrote a book, The Pursuit of the
42:56
Speaker 1: Atlanta Child Kill Our Facts, Fibers and Forensics, right, you know,
42:59
Speaker 1: it is something that has continued to continue to be
43:03
Speaker 1: people who are doubters and so forth. Over the years.
43:08
Speaker 1: I've seen so many productions that have been done that
43:12
Speaker 1: for the purpose of entertainment. They don't talk about the evidence.
43:16
Speaker 1: They talk about, you know, the mystery of the case,
43:18
Speaker 1: what mystery he did it? Well, if you don't know
43:22
Speaker 1: about the evidence, you don't know that. And I've had
43:25
Speaker 1: so many people and I think even in the Daily
43:29
Speaker 1: Mail article that was done two years ago, they interviewed
43:34
Speaker 1: various people, a number of people who said I don't
43:37
Speaker 1: think he did it, said I'm not aware of what
43:39
Speaker 1: the evidence was. I've never seen all the evidence. And
43:43
Speaker 1: I found this with many of the mothers, even that
43:45
Speaker 1: they don't know what the evidence was. If they did,
43:50
Speaker 1: they would probably think differently. What is it, lou Archangel
43:54
Speaker 1: about Wayne Williams that everyone wants to think he's innocent.
43:57
Speaker 1: He's not. Oh, Wayne Williams was as child molesting pedophile,
44:02
Speaker 1: He abused his parents. I mean, he's a despicable human being.
44:06
Speaker 1: And yet many people have rallied to his side because
44:10
Speaker 1: they don't know the facts, but they're so clearly laid
44:13
Speaker 1: out in Joe's book that after you've read basically how
44:17
Speaker 1: a prosecutor works, how the criminal justice system works, you
44:22
Speaker 1: will understand the complexities of the case. It'll all come together.
44:26
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams is guilty. I think of killing twenty eight people.
44:30
Speaker 1: That is exactly what I think, Lou, that is exactly
44:34
Speaker 1: what I think. Joseph drew way, this has become a
44:38
Speaker 1: mission of yours. Why well, after the trial, of course,
44:43
Speaker 1: I handled the appeal and other folks involved in the
44:47
Speaker 1: prosecution went elsewhere. So I ended up being the person
44:51
Speaker 1: who has been defending the case, those in the Georgias
44:55
Speaker 1: frame cort and the assisting in regard cathederal Corey's eight
45:00
Speaker 1: habeas corpus. And every time something happens about the case,
45:05
Speaker 1: I get calls about it. So I've been, uh, you know,
45:09
Speaker 1: talking about this case and acting as sort of the
45:12
Speaker 1: spokesman for what happened for forty years. Joe, this is arned.
45:20
Speaker 1: One question, one question that I've wondered about over the
45:26
Speaker 1: years is despite the imposing forensic evidence, do you believe
45:37
Speaker 1: that there might have been a different outcome had Wayne
45:41
Speaker 1: Williams not taken the stand. No, I don't think. I
45:47
Speaker 1: don't think him taking the stand did anything, because the
45:52
Speaker 1: evidence was all there when he took the stand. What
45:58
Speaker 1: it did was dispelled the fact that he could deny
46:04
Speaker 1: this with a straight pace, because he ended up being
46:09
Speaker 1: unable to stick to the story that he had in
46:13
Speaker 1: regard to, for example, what he was doing on the bridge,
46:16
Speaker 1: and that's he sort of melted down on the witness stand. Oh,
46:20
Speaker 1: you got to tell me about that, Joseph who put
46:23
Speaker 1: their client on the stand. Well, you know, the defendant,
46:27
Speaker 1: I think, wanted to testify. Yeah, what can you do
46:30
Speaker 1: with that? When the defendant insists he's smarter than everybody
46:33
Speaker 1: else and insists he wants to take the stand exactly,
46:36
Speaker 1: you can't stop him under the law. You've got to
46:39
Speaker 1: let him testify. What did he do, understand, Joseph, Well,
46:42
Speaker 1: he did real real well for the first part when
46:45
Speaker 1: he was being examined by al Bider, he did real
46:49
Speaker 1: real well. Oh, dear Lord in Heaven. But he then
46:54
Speaker 1: we brought him back the next day because we weren't finished.
46:57
Speaker 1: And then what the FBI founders had suggested was, if
47:02
Speaker 1: you keep confronting him with his eyes, he will probably
47:06
Speaker 1: at some point blow up, and he did. And what
47:11
Speaker 1: made him blow up was he could not answer the
47:14
Speaker 1: question if he crossed the bridge going south towards his house,
47:20
Speaker 1: and he said, a trial, I crossed the base because
47:23
Speaker 1: I wanted to go home. Well, then he turns around
47:26
Speaker 1: at the end of the bridge and goes north up
47:29
Speaker 1: to Interstate two eighty five. Well then he tries to
47:34
Speaker 1: explain that by saying, oh, it's quicker to go home
47:37
Speaker 1: by two eighty five. And of course the question then is, well,
47:41
Speaker 1: then why did you go down across the bridge? And
47:45
Speaker 1: that one thing made him blow up, Yes, because he couldn't.
47:48
Speaker 1: He had come up with different versions and painted himself
47:54
Speaker 1: into a corner. Do you have any doubt, Joseph, that
47:57
Speaker 1: why and Williams is guilty? No, I don't. I don't
48:00
Speaker 1: based on the evidence. I think you know very clearly
48:03
Speaker 1: he killed you know, eighteen or so of them, probably
48:07
Speaker 1: twenty four others. You know, we just didn't have evidence.
48:11
Speaker 1: Some of the earlier cases there was nothing but skeletal remains,
48:16
Speaker 1: and evidence had been dispersed over a period of months
48:20
Speaker 1: and even up to a year. He may have killed
48:23
Speaker 1: some of those people you may have go there in
48:25
Speaker 1: Glass who is still missing? Well, your book The Pursuit
48:29
Speaker 1: of the Atlanta Child Killer Facts Fibers in Forensics on
48:32
Speaker 1: Amazon Now is incredible. Gentlemen, Thank you Nancy Grace Crime
48:37
Speaker 1: Stories signing off good bye friend,