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“Are we infrastructure?” · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
0:23
Speaker 1: On today's pod, the debate over Joe Biden's jobs plan
0:25
Speaker 1: has devolved into a fight over the definition of the
0:27
Speaker 1: word infrastructure. Republicans threaten their corporate donors and their grassroots donors.
0:32
Speaker 1: And transgender activist Raquel Willis joins us to talk about
0:35
Speaker 1: the horrific wave of anti-trans legislation sweeping the country. Before
0:39
Speaker 1: we start, one quick housekeeping note. On last week's Hysteria,
0:42
Speaker 1: Erin and Alyssa were joined by Nse Ufot of the
0:45
Speaker 1: New Georgia Project to discuss voting rights. And today, Dan,
0:50
Speaker 1: they're joined by Hillary Clinton. How about that?
0:52
Speaker 3: I mean, wow.
0:53
Speaker 1: That's a big get.
0:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, seriously.
0:55
Speaker 1: That is a big get. Hillary Clinton on Hysteria. So
0:58
Speaker 1: tune in. Check it out. All right. Let's get to
1:01
Speaker 1: the news. For the last several days, official Washington has
1:04
Speaker 1: been consumed with the question that struggling Americans everywhere are
1:08
Speaker 1: no doubt asking themselves. What is infrastructure? Is everything infrastructure?
1:14
Speaker 1: Is nothing infrastructure? Are we infrastructure? That's right. Republicans are
1:22
Speaker 1: attacking Joe Biden's American jobs plan because it doesn't just
1:24
Speaker 1: spend money on traditional infrastructure like roads and bridges, but
1:27
Speaker 1: things like high speed broadband and clean water and veterans hospitals.
1:31
Speaker 1: And here's what's really upsetting them. Better care for senior
1:35
Speaker 1: citizens and people with disabilities. Marshall Blackburn actually tweeted an
1:39
Speaker 1: attack specifically about the fact that Joe Biden's plan gives
1:43
Speaker 1: 400 billion dollars to care for seniors. She was very
1:47
Speaker 1: mad about that.
1:48
Speaker 2: Republicans are now attacking a Democratic president for life panels.
1:55
Speaker 1: So in response, Democrats are, for some reason, trying to
1:59
Speaker 1: argue that actually everything in the bill does count as infrastructure.
2:03
Speaker 1: One example from Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, who tweeted yesterday, quote,
2:07
Speaker 1: paid leave is infrastructure. Child care is infrastructure. Caregiving is infrastructure. Dan,
2:15
Speaker 1: call me crazy, but one way to connect all the
2:17
Speaker 1: investments in the American jobs plan is by pointing out
2:20
Speaker 1: that they all create jobs, which is even more popular
2:24
Speaker 1: with voters than infrastructure. Or I suppose we could keep
2:27
Speaker 1: having a fight over the definition of the word infrastructure.
2:30
Speaker 1: What do you think? What do you think we should do?
2:33
Speaker 2: I've rarely gotten more worked up about something of lower
2:37
Speaker 2: stakes than this conversation.
2:40
Speaker 1: If anyone just sees our text chain from the last
2:42
Speaker 1: couple of days, it's you and I texting in all
2:45
Speaker 1: caps about how angry we are about this stupid fucking
2:48
Speaker 1: debate over the definition of the word infrastructure.
2:51
Speaker 2: I mean, I've been trying to figure out how we
2:53
Speaker 2: got to this place because it was.
2:57
Speaker 1: And I.
2:58
Speaker 2: I think it began with the idea, and we'll talk
3:01
Speaker 2: about this a little bit later, that there was one
3:03
Speaker 2: more reconciliation bill. So there was probably one more piece
3:06
Speaker 2: of legislation that was going to leave the station in
3:09
Speaker 2: the first two years of the Biden administration, at least
3:11
Speaker 2: major legislation. And it had been signaled it would be
3:15
Speaker 2: an infrastructure bill. It was something Biden ran on. He
3:18
Speaker 2: had his Build Back Better plan. And then a bunch
3:20
Speaker 2: of advocates, progressives in Congress in particular, started making the
3:24
Speaker 2: case that all these other things that were quote unquote infrastructure, childcare,
3:29
Speaker 2: paid family leave. This was the family infrastructure agenda. And
3:33
Speaker 2: we sort of got in this place where we had
3:38
Speaker 2: that we created this debate, right? Where this was an
3:40
Speaker 2: infrastructure bill and we were going to operate by the,
3:43
Speaker 2: in the way the press was going to cover in
3:44
Speaker 2: the traditional political definitive infrastructure, which is roads, bridges, airports, dams,
3:51
Speaker 2: you know, things you build. And the, Advocates were trying
3:56
Speaker 2: to expand the definition of that to include these other
3:58
Speaker 2: very worthy, important things. Now, just because this is how
4:04
Speaker 2: politics in the Twitter age works is there is an
4:09
Speaker 2: immediate homing beacon to the dumbest possible argument. So here
4:14
Speaker 2: we are, right? Does this matter to voters?
4:16
Speaker 4: No.
4:17
Speaker 2: Does it have some political consequences for how this bill
4:20
Speaker 2: passes and what credit someone gets and what blame people
4:23
Speaker 2: oppose it get? I actually think it does.
4:26
Speaker 1: Here's a little story. When I was a speechwriter for
4:29
Speaker 1: Barack Obama, we talked a lot about infrastructure. And one
4:34
Speaker 1: thing I would try to do is constantly look for
4:36
Speaker 1: a word that was not the word infrastructure to put
4:40
Speaker 1: in Barack Obama's speeches. Because I have a hunch that
4:45
Speaker 1: most Americans don't walk around talking about infrastructure or think
4:48
Speaker 1: about infrastructure all that much. So I would talk about
4:51
Speaker 1: investments in transportation, since people know transportation. I talk about
4:55
Speaker 1: rebuilding roads and bridges, rebuilding highways, spending money that will
4:59
Speaker 1: create jobs for people who are going to rebuild those
5:03
Speaker 1: roads and bridges. So all of us speechwriters, and I'm
5:06
Speaker 1: sure you guys wanted us to do this too in
5:07
Speaker 1: the communications office, would try everything we could to actually
5:12
Speaker 1: explain what he meant by infrastructure as opposed to using
5:16
Speaker 1: the fucking word infrastructure over and over again. I would
5:19
Speaker 1: also say that the entire frame of this debate is
5:23
Speaker 1: wrong because even if people do know what infrastructure is,
5:26
Speaker 1: I guarantee you, without even looking at a poll, it
5:30
Speaker 1: is not nearly as popular as creating jobs, which by
5:34
Speaker 1: the way, every single dollar, almost every single dollar in
5:37
Speaker 1: the American jobs plan would do whether it's home care.
5:41
Speaker 1: It's not just better home care for the elderly and
5:43
Speaker 1: people who have disabilities. It's Paying people who have those
5:46
Speaker 1: jobs who care for the elderly and those with disabilities.
5:49
Speaker 1: So that's about creating jobs like changing, you know, retrofitting
5:53
Speaker 1: lead pipes in people's homes so that they have clean
5:55
Speaker 1: water and they don't have lead in their water. That's
5:56
Speaker 1: going to take jobs. That's going to create jobs. Every
5:59
Speaker 1: single thing in this bill is going to create jobs, which,
6:02
Speaker 1: by the way, is why the Biden people named it
6:05
Speaker 1: the American Jobs Plan. So why are all of these
6:09
Speaker 1: Democrats trying to stretch the definition of infrastructure to win
6:13
Speaker 1: some weird battle with Republicans who are saying it's not infrastructure?
6:16
Speaker 1: I don't understand. I don't understand.
6:19
Speaker 2: For people with our experience in the Obama administration, it's
6:22
Speaker 2: a surreal thing because We obviously took office at a
6:25
Speaker 2: time of incredibly high unemployment. Therefore, the best and fastest
6:30
Speaker 2: way to get something on the president's schedule was to
6:32
Speaker 2: make it about jobs. So every scheduling meeting, everyone from
6:36
Speaker 2: all across the government would twist their initiative into a
6:40
Speaker 2: pretzel in order to say it's quote unquote jobs.
6:44
Speaker 1: At least that kind of twisting, though, makes sense because
6:47
Speaker 1: guess what people love? Jobs. People love jobs. Love them.
6:51
Speaker 2: I mean, this was a classic move of the National
6:53
Speaker 2: Security Council would be like, we should do this event
6:56
Speaker 2: with this foreign leader because they're going to buy four
6:59
Speaker 2: airplanes and airplanes are made by people with jobs. And
7:04
Speaker 2: so now you have.
7:06
Speaker 1: I've written plenty of those remarks.
7:08
Speaker 2: And now you have a Democratic administration pushing something called
7:13
Speaker 2: the American Jobs Plan that is incredibly popular. And we
7:17
Speaker 2: are going to define everything against this other term that
7:20
Speaker 2: really means nothing. Because people in politics think of infrastructure
7:25
Speaker 2: in terms of the way we talk about roads, bridges,
7:26
Speaker 2: et cetera. But in every other context, it has a
7:29
Speaker 2: very different meaning. People talk all the time in sports
7:32
Speaker 2: about organizations with great infrastructure, right? That they, when you
7:36
Speaker 2: talk about the San Antonio Spurs or your New England
7:39
Speaker 2: Patriots or whatever, You know, organizations have great coaching, great
7:42
Speaker 2: training staffs, you know, great scouting development that when players
7:46
Speaker 2: go there, they have the best chance to succeed. When
7:48
Speaker 2: they say that the Spurs have great infrastructure, they don't
7:50
Speaker 2: mean they have a great fucking road to the stadium, right?
7:53
Speaker 2: So it's like it doesn't– we have so backed the
7:58
Speaker 2: car into a cul-de-sac of stupidity that it is mind-boggling.
8:01
Speaker 2: And I do think it matters. At least like some
8:04
Speaker 2: of this is just like people like you and me
8:05
Speaker 2: and people on Twitter talking about– It becomes this topic
8:09
Speaker 2: at Jen Psaki's briefing. But I think in the case
8:12
Speaker 2: where it does matter is it gives the Republicans an
8:17
Speaker 2: out for opposing very popular initiatives. Because when you say
8:21
Speaker 2: this is an infrastructure plan, they can say, like Marsha Blackburn,
8:25
Speaker 2: someone who scores an own goal every time she goes
8:27
Speaker 2: on the field, can say, I am not opposed to
8:31
Speaker 2: elder care. I am opposed to, it's not, this is
8:36
Speaker 2: an infrastructure bill, it's not infrastructure, so I am not
8:38
Speaker 2: voting for it, right? We are allowing them to skirt
8:41
Speaker 2: opposing popular initiatives on the merits by saying whether it
8:45
Speaker 2: should be in or out based on this fake definition
8:47
Speaker 2: that we have created.
8:48
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I was going to say. Do you
8:50
Speaker 1: think people see it like that? Like if every Republican
8:52
Speaker 1: votes against $ 400 billion in caring for seniors and people
8:56
Speaker 1: with disabilities, you think people are going to be like, well,
8:58
Speaker 1: you know, it's okay that they voted against that very
9:01
Speaker 1: popular provision because- It wasn't technically infrastructure, and I'm a
9:05
Speaker 1: stickler for the rules. That bill should have been infrastructure only.
9:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, does that really matter? Kind of. I mean,
9:11
Speaker 2: it just– people are surfing the news here, right? And
9:16
Speaker 2: if what you get from simply surfing the news by
9:19
Speaker 2: scrolling through Facebook or whatever else is that Democrats are
9:23
Speaker 2: playing fast and loose and trying to jam a bunch
9:26
Speaker 2: of things into an infrastructure bill that aren't infrastructure, that
9:29
Speaker 2: creates a permission structure for people to be OK with
9:30
Speaker 2: opposing it.
9:31
Speaker 1: And look– You know, I get it.
9:34
Speaker 5: Yeah.
9:34
Speaker 1: What I would say, though, is like if someone asked
9:35
Speaker 1: me about why I was doing that, I'd be like,
9:37
Speaker 1: you know what Democrats are trying to do? People elected us.
9:40
Speaker 1: They gave us power. And now we're trying to pass
9:43
Speaker 1: all the things that we said we'd pass when we
9:45
Speaker 1: were on the campaign trail and ask for people's votes
9:48
Speaker 1: because that's how it works.
9:49
Speaker 2: Yeah.
9:50
Speaker 5: Yeah.
9:51
Speaker 1: We say I'm running on this. I'm running on. I'm
9:52
Speaker 1: going to do X, Y and Z. Then you vote
9:54
Speaker 1: for me. I'm in power. Now I'm going to try
9:56
Speaker 1: to do X, Y and Z because that's what people
9:57
Speaker 1: asked me to do when I ran for office.
9:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going. we are going to do a bunch
10:02
Speaker 2: of things that we told you we were going to
10:03
Speaker 2: do that are good for the economy and they create
10:05
Speaker 2: more good paying jobs. That's the end. Some of those
10:09
Speaker 2: things are infrastructure and some of them are other things,
10:12
Speaker 2: but they're all good for the economy.
10:15
Speaker 1: So, of course, Republicans have made it pretty clear that
10:17
Speaker 1: they're not seriously considering voting for a big jobs and
10:20
Speaker 1: infrastructure bill, whatever may be in it. You know, there's
10:22
Speaker 1: some noise out there. Some Republicans are like, oh, yeah,
10:25
Speaker 1: I'll sit down with the Biden administration and work on
10:27
Speaker 1: a transportation infrastructure only bill. But I'll be shocked if
10:32
Speaker 1: that actually happens. So Biden's real challenge is getting just
10:35
Speaker 1: about every Democrat in Congress on board. Joe Manchin made
10:38
Speaker 1: that tougher this week with a real potpourri of unhelpful comments.
10:44
Speaker 1: He said he wants the corporate tax rate at 25%,
10:46
Speaker 1: not 28%. He said he refuses to allow the bill
10:50
Speaker 1: to pass via reconciliation unless his vote is earned, was
10:54
Speaker 1: the quote. And he said that six or seven other
10:56
Speaker 1: Democratic senators have concerns too. Sure enough, Mark Warner came
11:00
Speaker 1: out and said he wants more input into the bill.
11:02
Speaker 1: Do you think Manchin and these other Senate Democrats want
11:05
Speaker 1: big changes, small changes? How much of a headache do
11:08
Speaker 1: you think this is for the White House? And how
11:10
Speaker 1: much is just normal negotiating with members of your own
11:13
Speaker 1: party in Congress?
11:14
Speaker 2: I think this is pretty normal negotiating. It's just, I
11:18
Speaker 2: think everyone needs to understand that the way the American
11:21
Speaker 2: Rescue Plan passed is the exception, not the rule, of
11:23
Speaker 2: how presidents pass legislation. Joe Biden set up a very
11:27
Speaker 2: specific $ 1. 9 trillion plan, and then Congress passed something that
11:31
Speaker 2: was $ 1. 9 trillion. It was pretty damn close to what
11:33
Speaker 2: he sent up. And here, Biden released broad principles with
11:38
Speaker 2: price tags attached, and Congress now has to go about
11:42
Speaker 2: writing the bill. And I understand that maybe Mark Warner
11:44
Speaker 2: wishes he had gotten an earlier phone call or a
11:46
Speaker 2: more extensive briefing, but he still gets to write the bill.
11:49
Speaker 2: He has all the input, and he can thank the
11:52
Speaker 2: founders for that because he gets to write the bill.
11:55
Speaker 2: And this is– like all Manchin statements are treated as
12:00
Speaker 2: like these giant proclamations and it's like, oh my god,
12:03
Speaker 2: Joe Manchin is flaking on us again. He only wants
12:06
Speaker 2: to raise the corporate tax rate to 25%, three points
12:10
Speaker 2: off what Biden does. And so I think this is
12:12
Speaker 2: all pretty normal. There's going to be a lot of wrangling.
12:14
Speaker 2: There's going to be wrangling on the left. It's not
12:15
Speaker 2: all going to be just about appeasing Joe Manchin. You're
12:17
Speaker 2: going to have a lot of people in the House
12:19
Speaker 2: who are the progressive caucus who looking to include certain
12:23
Speaker 2: things in the bill to ramp up some of the
12:25
Speaker 2: climate spending, et cetera. And so this is going to
12:27
Speaker 2: be a super normal congressional process. And every super normal
12:32
Speaker 2: congressional process is pretty messy. But I think if you were,
12:36
Speaker 2: we don't make predictions, but nothing that has happened yet
12:39
Speaker 2: suggests that Joe Biden is not on track to pass
12:43
Speaker 2: a very significant jobs bill.
12:46
Speaker 1: Look, I think the corporate tax rate should be 28%.
12:49
Speaker 1: I think it should go back to being 35%, which
12:51
Speaker 1: is what it was before Trump cut it. And I
12:53
Speaker 1: also think, by the way, that raising corporate taxes is
12:55
Speaker 1: going to be broadly popular politically. But if Joe Manchin,
12:59
Speaker 1: to get his vote, wants 25 instead of 28, I'm
13:01
Speaker 1: not going to lose a ton of sleep over that,
13:04
Speaker 1: particularly since we're deficit spending these days.
13:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
13:09
Speaker 1: It's not like we needed the 28% to make sure
13:12
Speaker 1: that we could pay for the rest of the bill
13:14
Speaker 1: if he wants it at 25% and then adding more
13:16
Speaker 1: to the deficit on the back end. That's fine. I
13:19
Speaker 1: care more about making sure that the investments in the
13:21
Speaker 1: bill stay robust than I probably do about the tax thing.
13:25
Speaker 1: So that's good. There was some good news for Biden
13:28
Speaker 1: and Democrats this week when the Senate parliamentarian ruled that
13:31
Speaker 1: they have the option to use reconciliation a third time
13:34
Speaker 1: this year, as you mentioned, though. as he is wont
13:38
Speaker 1: to do. Joe Manchin took a big dump on that
13:40
Speaker 1: news when he wrote in an op-ed today that, quote,
13:44
Speaker 1: I simply do not believe budget reconciliation should replace regular
13:47
Speaker 1: order in the Senate. And then he reiterated, quote, I
13:50
Speaker 1: will not vote to eliminate or weaken the filibuster. In fact,
13:53
Speaker 1: that was the title of the op-ed. Lovely. That came
13:56
Speaker 1: after Kyrsten Sinema reiterated her opposition to filibuster reform this
14:00
Speaker 1: week as well, saying, quote, I don't think the solution
14:02
Speaker 1: is to erode the rules. I think the solution is
14:04
Speaker 1: for senators to change their behavior. Yeah, what's easier, fucking
14:09
Speaker 1: eroding the rules or changing the behavior of Mitch McConnell
14:12
Speaker 1: and his gang of bozos? I mean, it's just, where
14:16
Speaker 1: does this leave us, both on the third reconciliation bill
14:21
Speaker 1: and then on all the other things that Democrats want
14:23
Speaker 1: to get done that require reforming the filibuster like HR won?
14:27
Speaker 2: The third reconciliation bill, I think, is important, but perhaps
14:30
Speaker 2: not as important as everyone wants us to believe it is.
14:35
Speaker 2: Where I think it is useful is it is a
14:38
Speaker 2: sort of a break glass measure, right? Where we're going to,
14:41
Speaker 2: I think the right thing to still do is try
14:43
Speaker 2: to get as many things as possible that are jobs
14:47
Speaker 2: and economic related into this infrastructure bill and have the
14:53
Speaker 2: third reconciliation.
14:54
Speaker 1: Jobs, jobs, let's call it jobs.
14:56
Speaker 2: I did. Oh, this is an audio medium, but I
14:58
Speaker 2: did air quotes for the infrastructure.
14:59
Speaker 1: You did do air quotes. Hey everyone, Dan did air quotes.
15:03
Speaker 2: And so, um, But it's good to have another bill, right?
15:07
Speaker 2: But we shouldn't assume that it's going to be really
15:09
Speaker 2: easy to pass a third, really big bill. So it's
15:14
Speaker 2: nice to have. I hope we don't need it, but
15:16
Speaker 2: it is there.
15:17
Speaker 1: I would say, by the way, there's a few big
15:19
Speaker 1: ticket items that I would want to see in the
15:21
Speaker 1: third reconciliation bill that I think they're planning that are
15:23
Speaker 1: super important. I think They are floating the idea of
15:27
Speaker 1: making permanent the child care tax credit that they passed
15:30
Speaker 1: in the American Rescue Plan in a third reconciliation bill,
15:33
Speaker 1: which would be legacy defining for Joe Biden and transformative
15:37
Speaker 1: in this country to basically then have Social Security for
15:40
Speaker 1: kids as a legacy item that would last in perpetuity.
15:44
Speaker 1: And so that every child in this country forevermore has
15:47
Speaker 1: a couple thousand dollars. Their family gets a couple thousand
15:50
Speaker 1: dollars allowance for them. That would be enormous. And all
15:53
Speaker 1: of the health care changes or additional health care changes,
15:57
Speaker 1: aside from what was in the American Rescue Plan, would
15:58
Speaker 1: be in that third reconciliation bill as well, whether that's
16:01
Speaker 1: lowering the eligibility age for Medicare, whether that's letting Medicare
16:05
Speaker 1: bargain for cheaper prescription drugs. So there's a lot of
16:07
Speaker 1: really important things that could be in that third reconciliation bill.
16:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a fair point.
16:11
Speaker 1: So what do you think about filibuster stuff?
16:22
Speaker 2: This is the risk of this as well is I've
16:25
Speaker 2: sort of thought the way this would play itself out
16:27
Speaker 2: was you would use one reconciliation bill to pass the
16:29
Speaker 2: American Rescue Plan. You would use the second one to
16:32
Speaker 2: pass the American Jobs Plan. And now here you are.
16:34
Speaker 2: It's summer of the first year in office and we
16:37
Speaker 2: got nothing else to pass. So the question of do
16:41
Speaker 2: you do nothing for the next year and a half
16:43
Speaker 2: or do you take on the bigger challenge of filibuster
16:45
Speaker 2: would finally ripen? But as long as you have this
16:48
Speaker 2: other legislative vehicle out there, it creates a way in
16:50
Speaker 2: which to avoid the very hard question. Because as we've
16:52
Speaker 2: talked about before, there are a number of senators who
16:55
Speaker 2: very much want to get rid of the filibuster. There
16:58
Speaker 2: is another group, which is probably just as large, if
17:00
Speaker 2: not larger, that would get rid of the filibuster, but
17:03
Speaker 2: really hopes the question is never called. And the longer
17:06
Speaker 2: we can play around with passing things on a budget reconciliation,
17:11
Speaker 2: that question may not get called. And what that means
17:13
Speaker 2: is no significant gun legislation. No voting rights, no $ 15
17:17
Speaker 2: minimum wage according to the current leanings of the parliamentarium.
17:21
Speaker 2: And so I worry about this. And I think the
17:24
Speaker 2: Manchin op-ed is bad. And it's bad and it's just–
17:31
Speaker 2: I mean it– It is.
17:32
Speaker 1: It made me– like he didn't– in fairness, he didn't
17:36
Speaker 1: say anything too new. because he's said that before about
17:40
Speaker 1: the filibuster and he's complained about reconciliation before, though I
17:43
Speaker 1: will say that he didn't draw any lines in the
17:45
Speaker 1: sand on reconciliation in that op-ed like he did on
17:47
Speaker 1: the filibuster. So, you know, I'm sure he doesn't prefer
17:50
Speaker 1: a second or third reconciliation.
17:52
Speaker 2: No one wants that.
17:53
Speaker 1: No one wants that. But he could potentially get there.
17:56
Speaker 1: On the filibuster, though, you know, at one point in
17:59
Speaker 1: the op-ed, he talks about democracy reform in H.R. 1.
18:02
Speaker 1: And he's like, well, I think there's plenty of bipartisan provisions.
18:06
Speaker 1: I think there's ways to improve voting access, election security,
18:11
Speaker 1: campaign finance reform, because he's always been big on that. Again,
18:14
Speaker 1: didn't mention nonpartisan redistricting, which is driving me nuts since
18:17
Speaker 1: it's both the most popular thing in the bill and
18:20
Speaker 1: probably the most important thing that we get done, I
18:22
Speaker 1: would argue, but didn't mention that. But he said, so
18:25
Speaker 1: there's these bipartisan things we can get done around voting
18:27
Speaker 1: and democracy reforms, and we should do it that way.
18:30
Speaker 1: And it's like, all right, man, then go find, you
18:33
Speaker 1: go find 10 Republican senators. So we have 60 votes.
18:37
Speaker 1: who would pass your bipartisan version of the For the
18:42
Speaker 1: People Act. Show us the version of For the People
18:45
Speaker 1: that gets 10 Republican senators if you really want to
18:47
Speaker 1: go play prime minister, which is what you're doing. Like,
18:50
Speaker 1: I kind of think that like someone's just got to
18:52
Speaker 1: call his bluff. And I don't know who's going to
18:54
Speaker 1: do that because there's this delicate dance, right? Where like,
18:57
Speaker 1: the White House, Schumer, the other Democrats, you want to
19:00
Speaker 1: piss Joe Manchin off too much because your whole agenda
19:04
Speaker 1: hinges on fucking Joe Manchin. So I like, how do
19:07
Speaker 1: you deal with this?
19:10
Speaker 2: With great anger, I guess. I mean, this is the
19:14
Speaker 2: same thing.
19:14
Speaker 1: I'm at the end of my rope on this. Yes.
19:16
Speaker 2: This is the same thing with the cinema comments. Like,
19:18
Speaker 2: have you people met your colleagues on the Republican side?
19:24
Speaker 2: Do you read the news? Do you listen to them speak?
19:27
Speaker 2: Do you read their tweets? There is nothing that suggests
19:32
Speaker 2: anything is going to change on that side of the aisle.
19:36
Speaker 2: Even with Donald Trump gone, they are getting worse, not better.
19:39
Speaker 2: So this is your choice as a United States Senator,
19:42
Speaker 2: the career profession in which you have chosen and worked
19:45
Speaker 2: really hard to get to and to keep. And your
19:48
Speaker 2: choice is, I am going to to do very little.
19:53
Speaker 2: I care about things. My constituents care about things. They
19:55
Speaker 2: elected me to do things, but I am choosing to
19:58
Speaker 2: not do them. That is the choice they are making.
20:02
Speaker 2: I think it's very disingenuous. Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin
20:04
Speaker 2: are not stupid. They are not ignorant. They're pretending to
20:09
Speaker 2: be ignorant for the purpose of creating this mythos about
20:14
Speaker 2: themselves as these bipartisan institutionalists. They are lying to create
20:18
Speaker 2: that impression. And I think that is very disingenuous and
20:21
Speaker 2: it is, and their constituents and everyone else suffers because
20:24
Speaker 2: of it.
20:25
Speaker 1: But it's disingenuous, but it's also, I think, points to
20:29
Speaker 1: maybe the only pathway for Biden and Schumer and the
20:32
Speaker 1: rest of the Democrats to deal with them, which is,
20:36
Speaker 1: I sort of said, call their bluff in a more,
20:38
Speaker 1: an angrier way. But if I were Chuck Schumer, I
20:41
Speaker 1: would maybe sit down with Manchin and maybe Biden should
20:44
Speaker 1: do this too and say, look, if you really believe
20:46
Speaker 1: we should do H.R. 1 and do democracy reform in
20:49
Speaker 1: a bipartisan way, show me the piece of legislation that
20:53
Speaker 1: you would want to pass and then and show me
20:55
Speaker 1: the 10 Republican senators that we could bring up. And
20:58
Speaker 1: I'm willing to try that and like let him go
21:01
Speaker 1: do his thing, because maybe what Joe Manchin wants is.
21:04
Speaker 1: is just to be able to say, I really tried
21:07
Speaker 1: to get all these Republicans on board. I want to
21:09
Speaker 1: do something bipartisan. I had the support of the White House.
21:11
Speaker 1: I just supported my caucus. And these Republicans said no.
21:15
Speaker 1: And he wants the Republicans to be the ones to
21:17
Speaker 1: say no. So it looks like they're intransigent and not
21:19
Speaker 1: the Democrats. I don't know. I don't think that's a
21:21
Speaker 1: great option. I'm not saying I love it, but it
21:24
Speaker 1: seems to me like the best of a whole bunch
21:27
Speaker 1: of bad options at this point.
21:28
Speaker 2: I guess this is the, if you're looking for a
21:31
Speaker 2: dark lining in the silver cloud of that third reconciliation bill,
21:34
Speaker 2: is it delays proving the Republicans' opposition. Because now you
21:39
Speaker 2: have another situation where Democrats can go do things and
21:41
Speaker 2: they don't have to worry about Republican opposition. And so
21:44
Speaker 2: where's the moment where we're going to bring up a
21:48
Speaker 2: guns bill that is going to be filibustered? Where are
21:50
Speaker 2: we going to bring up the $ 15 minimum wage that's
21:52
Speaker 2: going to be filibustered? Where are we going to bring
21:53
Speaker 2: these things up to prove that the only way to
21:56
Speaker 2: actually accomplish things is to change the rules or reform
21:59
Speaker 2: them in some way, shape, or form? Still, we are
22:02
Speaker 2: in April, I think, whatever month this is, and Republicans
22:06
Speaker 2: have not really had to filibuster anything because of the–
22:09
Speaker 2: we've been– in some ways, that's a fortunate thing because
22:11
Speaker 2: we've been able to– Joe Biden and the Democrats have
22:12
Speaker 2: been able to accomplish a lot of things. But you
22:16
Speaker 2: still have to prove apparently to– Joe Manchin, Manchin and
22:21
Speaker 2: Sinema are the kind of people who have to jump
22:22
Speaker 2: out of a window to be reminded that gravity exists.
22:24
Speaker 2: And so this is sort of what has to happen
22:26
Speaker 2: in the Senate. But that keeps getting delayed and delayed
22:28
Speaker 2: and delayed. And I worry we're going to run out
22:30
Speaker 2: of runway before that happens. And if we, as we've
22:32
Speaker 2: said a thousand times, and Vote Safe America is so
22:35
Speaker 2: cleverly branded, if we don't pass H.R. 1, we are fucked.
22:39
Speaker 4: Yep.
22:40
Speaker 1: Speaking of which, if you want to learn more about
22:42
Speaker 1: these issues, you want to learn how to get in
22:44
Speaker 1: touch with your member of Congress to really push this.
22:46
Speaker 1: Of course, go to votesaveamerica.com slash for the people. And
22:49
Speaker 1: we have all the tools and information you will need
22:52
Speaker 1: right there. So one fun development over the last week
22:55
Speaker 1: is that Republicans appear to be at war with their
22:57
Speaker 1: own donors. First, there was a New York Times story
23:01
Speaker 1: by Shane Goldmarker and Rachel Shorey about how the Trump
23:04
Speaker 1: campaign tricked their supporters into setting up recurring donations with
23:09
Speaker 1: small pre-checked boxes, which led a huge number of those
23:13
Speaker 1: supporters to to call their credit card companies and say
23:16
Speaker 1: they were victims of fraud. It is not just Trump, though.
23:21
Speaker 1: The NRCC, which is the Republican Campaign Committee in charge
23:24
Speaker 1: of taking back the House, is currently sending out, right now,
23:27
Speaker 1: fundraising appeals that include a small yellow pre-checked box that reads,
23:33
Speaker 1: if you uncheck this box, we will have to tell
23:36
Speaker 1: Trump you're a defector and sided with the Dems. Make
23:40
Speaker 1: this a monthly recurring donation.
23:42
Speaker 4: Ha ha!
23:42
Speaker 1: But it's already checked for you. You don't have to
23:45
Speaker 1: go check that box. And probably you didn't see the
23:47
Speaker 1: box when you signed up. It's in small, fine print
23:51
Speaker 1: at the bottom of the email. And lest you think
23:54
Speaker 1: that Republicans are only threatening their grassroots donors, Mitch McConnell
23:58
Speaker 1: lashed out at corporate America on Monday, warning companies like
24:00
Speaker 1: Delta and Coca-Cola that there would be, quote, serious consequences
24:04
Speaker 1: if they kept speaking out on issues like the Georgia
24:06
Speaker 1: voter suppression bill. Here's a clip.
24:08
Speaker 3: My warning, if you will, to corporate America is to
24:11
Speaker 3: stay out of politics. I'm not talking about political contributions.
24:18
Speaker 1: He's not talking about political contributions. He does want them
24:21
Speaker 1: out of politics. We will come back to that. I
24:23
Speaker 1: want to start with the incredible New York Times story
24:25
Speaker 1: about Republicans just tricking and threatening their supporters into giving
24:28
Speaker 1: them money. Is that kind of fundraising tactic typical? Is
24:32
Speaker 1: it even legal? Is it the sign of a healthy
24:35
Speaker 1: party that excels at persuading people to support it?
24:40
Speaker 2: I think it is in many ways a giant tribute
24:43
Speaker 2: to the Democratic grassroots fundraising machine that the Republicans have
24:47
Speaker 2: been forced to lie, cheat, and steal to keep up.
24:51
Speaker 2: And one of the most fascinating parts of this story
24:54
Speaker 2: is they got these people to check these boxes or
24:57
Speaker 2: to fail to uncheck them, I guess would be the
24:58
Speaker 2: right way to say it. And when the Republican fundraising
25:01
Speaker 2: started to dry up and you saw Joe Biden get
25:04
Speaker 2: a huge fundraising lead, they changed the withdrawals from monthly
25:07
Speaker 2: to weekly so they could get even more money out
25:09
Speaker 2: of these people's pockets. And it is, according to the story,
25:13
Speaker 2: not technically illegal, but it is definitely stealing. If you
25:18
Speaker 2: take people's property without their knowledge, that's definitely stealing. And
25:21
Speaker 2: that's definitely what the Republicans are doing.
25:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's a great piece in the New
25:26
Speaker 1: York Times. And if you go through it, there's a
25:28
Speaker 1: lot of stories, pretty sad stories I know some people
25:30
Speaker 1: are going to say, oh, it's Trump supporters, so it's
25:32
Speaker 1: not that sad. But a lot of people just built
25:35
Speaker 1: like thousands of dollars of bills that they didn't know
25:38
Speaker 1: their credit card has been run up. And it's just
25:40
Speaker 1: like it is un-fucking-believable. that they did this and got
25:45
Speaker 1: away with it. And that a lot of these Republican
25:48
Speaker 1: committees are still doing it. The NRCC is still doing
25:52
Speaker 1: it right now. And not only are they doing it,
25:54
Speaker 1: the fact that they're threatening their donors, which is just
25:57
Speaker 1: so in line with the Republican Party right now, they
25:59
Speaker 1: have like long given up on persuading anyone. It's all
26:02
Speaker 1: threats and intimidations now. They threaten voters, they threaten Democrats,
26:07
Speaker 1: they threaten journalists, they threaten corporations. And now they're even
26:10
Speaker 1: threatening their own supporters. If you don't donate, I will
26:13
Speaker 1: go tell Trump on you that you're a defector. If
26:17
Speaker 1: you don't make a monthly recurring donation, you will be
26:19
Speaker 1: branded a defector. I mean, I don't know how you
26:22
Speaker 1: get more. That's pretty fascist right there. I mean, it is.
26:27
Speaker 2: It's endemic of the whole problem Republicans have, which is
26:30
Speaker 2: the Republican Party has usually won giant senior scam campaigns.
26:33
Speaker 1: Yeah.
26:34
Speaker 2: I mean, it's, you know, they lie about their agenda.
26:37
Speaker 2: They lie about Democratic agenda. They throw a bunch of
26:39
Speaker 2: bullshit red herring issues out there to distract from their agenda.
26:42
Speaker 2: They trick you into donating. I mean, it is all
26:46
Speaker 2: of a piece and it's how you end up with
26:48
Speaker 2: the head of Trump University as the Republican president, right?
26:51
Speaker 2: And the party leader. It's all like, just the grift
26:55
Speaker 2: is the whole thing now.
26:56
Speaker 1: What did you think about Mitch McConnell telling corporations to
26:58
Speaker 1: shut up and stick to what they're good at, which
27:00
Speaker 1: is writing checks to Republicans? Yeah.
27:03
Speaker 2: Has there ever been a less credible threat in history
27:07
Speaker 2: than McConnell threatening to punish corporations?
27:11
Speaker 4: Yeah.
27:13
Speaker 1: That's a good point. Like what? Like it's going to
27:16
Speaker 1: invite serious consequences. Like what? What are the consequences, Mitch?
27:21
Speaker 1: You're currently in a fight with the Biden administration over
27:23
Speaker 1: making sure that there's not a corporate tax hike for corporations.
27:28
Speaker 1: Like that's what you're fighting. You're making sure that CEOs,
27:31
Speaker 1: the one piece of legislation you proposed is eliminating the
27:34
Speaker 1: inheritance tax. So rich CEOs can pass down billions to
27:38
Speaker 1: their kids tax-free. That's what you're fighting for. But oh, consequences.
27:43
Speaker 1: Watch out.
27:45
Speaker 2: I mean, ultimately, Mitch McConnell's greatest passion in life, other
27:50
Speaker 2: than just the pure accumulation of power, is allowing corporations
27:54
Speaker 2: to spend unlimited amounts of money in politics. He has
27:56
Speaker 2: been the plaintiff in Supreme Court cases to allow this.
27:58
Speaker 2: He has pushed for it. It is his primary opposition
28:01
Speaker 2: to HR1, is that it would stop dark money donations.
28:05
Speaker 2: In 2010, when the Obama administration was trying to pass
28:09
Speaker 2: the Wall Street reform bill, which would put the toughest
28:12
Speaker 2: rules on Wall Street since the Great Depression, Mitch McConnell
28:15
Speaker 2: went to go meet with the Wall Street banks. And
28:18
Speaker 2: he brought with him to that meeting. Did he bring
28:20
Speaker 2: the ranking member of the finance committee or a subject
28:23
Speaker 2: matter expert in– regulations?
28:27
Speaker 4: No.
28:28
Speaker 2: He brought John Cornyn, who was the head of the
28:30
Speaker 2: Republican Campaign Committee, so that he can make the pitch
28:33
Speaker 2: that if you give us money, we will make the
28:36
Speaker 2: world easier for you. If you fund us, you will
28:39
Speaker 2: have fewer rules and you can take on more risk.
28:42
Speaker 2: And so the fact that he said this and people
28:45
Speaker 2: who were in Tennessee laugh in his face is really
28:48
Speaker 2: sort of embarrassing for everyone who was there.
28:51
Speaker 1: Well, and he also sort of just like unwittingly made
28:54
Speaker 1: a great argument for passing HR1, which would also help
28:57
Speaker 1: keep money out of politics with like better disclosure rules
29:00
Speaker 1: and public financing of campaigns. So if Mitch really wants
29:04
Speaker 1: corporations to stay out of politics, he should jump on
29:07
Speaker 1: HR1 as a sponsor. Yeah.
29:09
Speaker 2: I mean, there was this great story by Jane Mayer
29:11
Speaker 2: in The New Yorker where she got the transcript, was
29:15
Speaker 2: able to listen in on a strategy call among Coke
29:18
Speaker 2: Industries and Ted Cruz, a bunch of people. And in that, call,
29:22
Speaker 2: the conservatives acknowledged that the anti-dark money, the limits on
29:26
Speaker 2: corporate giving in H.R. 1 were so popular that Republicans
29:29
Speaker 2: couldn't even publicly oppose them. They would have to try
29:31
Speaker 2: to kill them in the dark of night in the Senate.
29:34
Speaker 2: And it sort of speaks to the politics here.
29:37
Speaker 1: So before we move on, we should probably mention the
29:39
Speaker 1: worst Republican fundraising story of the week. Matt Gaetz- is
29:44
Speaker 1: now trying to raise money off of the report that
29:47
Speaker 1: he's being investigated by the Department of Justice for sex trafficking.
29:50
Speaker 1: A story that has just gotten worse and weirder for
29:53
Speaker 1: Gates since we talked about it on the last pod.
29:55
Speaker 1: CBS reported Wednesday night that federal investigators are looking into
29:58
Speaker 1: a Bahamas trip that Gates made with a marijuana entrepreneur
30:01
Speaker 1: who allegedly paid for female escorts. This comes after the
30:04
Speaker 1: New York Times reported that Gates asked Trump for a
30:07
Speaker 1: preemptive pardon before he left the White House, something that
30:11
Speaker 1: both Gates and Trump have denied, with Trump also pointing
30:14
Speaker 1: out in his first comments about Gates that he has, quote,
30:16
Speaker 1: totally denied the accusations against him. Dan, I would say
30:20
Speaker 1: the recent developments in the Matt Gates story are making
30:22
Speaker 1: him more suspicious, not less. What do you think?
30:26
Speaker 2: I would say that who would have guessed that when
30:28
Speaker 2: we talked about this investigation into Matt Gates on last
30:33
Speaker 2: week's pod, that it would be the high point of
30:34
Speaker 2: his month. It has only gotten worse for him. The
30:40
Speaker 2: stories have gotten worse. We have more details about what
30:42
Speaker 2: has happened that are much more incriminating. We're learning more
30:46
Speaker 2: about his other abhorrent but not technically illegal behavior about
30:53
Speaker 2: showing photos of nude women to other members of Congress,
30:57
Speaker 2: these horrible stories about how he conducted himself in the legislature.
31:00
Speaker 2: The more we know the more we hate Matt Gaetz,
31:03
Speaker 2: which I guess shouldn't be a surprise.
31:04
Speaker 1: I was going to say, Matt Gaetz, as gross as
31:07
Speaker 1: you always thought he was, maybe grosser, but you probably
31:10
Speaker 1: should have always known he was this gross. All right,
31:22
Speaker 1: let's talk about another front in the Republican culture wars
31:25
Speaker 1: where children are the collateral damage. This week, Arkansas became
31:28
Speaker 1: the first state to ban gender-affirming health care for trans
31:31
Speaker 1: youth after the legislature overrode the governor's veto. In just
31:35
Speaker 1: the first three months of 2021, Republican legislatures have introduced
31:39
Speaker 1: over 80 bills targeting trans youth, with 26 of those
31:42
Speaker 1: bills focused on excluding trans youth from sports that align
31:45
Speaker 1: with their gender identity. North Carolina Republicans just proposed the
31:49
Speaker 1: most extreme legislation by far. It would not only deny
31:52
Speaker 1: health care to trans youth, it would force state employees
31:56
Speaker 1: to notify a child's parents if they believe that child
31:59
Speaker 1: has displayed gender nonconformity. Joining us to discuss the Republican
32:04
Speaker 1: attack on trans youth is award-winning writer and activist Raquel Willis,
32:08
Speaker 1: who's been the executive editor of Out Magazine and an
32:11
Speaker 1: organizer with the Transgender Law Center. Raquel, welcome to Pod
32:14
Speaker 1: Save America. Yes.
32:16
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me on, John.
32:19
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of this Republican attack is
32:23
Speaker 1: malevolence that preys on people's ignorance. I saw you tweet
32:28
Speaker 1: the other day about how hard it is to distill
32:30
Speaker 1: all the misinformation that conservatives push about the trans community.
32:34
Speaker 1: So I won't make you try to do all of it.
32:36
Speaker 1: But could you talk about the most common and perhaps
32:39
Speaker 1: the most harmful misconceptions around some of these bills?
32:43
Speaker 5: Yes, so I think there has been a long kind
32:47
Speaker 5: of fight from the conservative side against transgender people in
32:51
Speaker 5: our community. The most recent kind of iteration of it
32:56
Speaker 5: has really come about in the aftermath of marriage equality.
33:01
Speaker 5: And so we've become the new kind of cultural scapegoat
33:05
Speaker 5: in a lot of ways in terms of their fight
33:08
Speaker 5: against people who have different experiences. I think a lot
33:13
Speaker 5: of the misinformation is fueled by these longstanding myths about
33:18
Speaker 5: trans people, that we are predatory, that we are not
33:22
Speaker 5: who we say we are, that gender and sex and
33:27
Speaker 5: all of these other distinctions that we have in society
33:30
Speaker 5: are more rigid than they actually are.
33:32
Speaker 4: And so I think also many.
33:38
Speaker 5: People know that there have always been folks across the
33:42
Speaker 5: LGBTQ plus spectrum, right? But when we get to questioning
33:48
Speaker 5: the fact that we exist, then they kind of magically forget.
33:52
Speaker 5: They're like, well, no, everyone kind of fits into this
33:56
Speaker 5: cisgender straight box. And it's like, well, you know that's
33:59
Speaker 5: not real, right? You have met all types of people.
34:02
Speaker 5: So let's remember that as we move forward in this
34:06
Speaker 5: fight for liberation for everyone.
34:09
Speaker 1: Dan, why do you think Republicans are doing this now?
34:12
Speaker 1: 60 bills in 2020, 80 bills so far in 2021.
34:16
Speaker 1: They're talking about how it's a concerted strategy. Why do
34:21
Speaker 1: you think it's happening now?
34:22
Speaker 2: I think there are two reasons for it. One is
34:25
Speaker 2: this is consistent with the long history of the Republican Party.
34:29
Speaker 2: Whenever they find themselves in any sort of political trouble.
34:32
Speaker 2: They go looking for another group to scapegoat, new bigotry
34:37
Speaker 2: to weaponize. That is exactly what's happening here. That is
34:40
Speaker 2: what Donald Trump did with immigrants. It's what George W.
34:42
Speaker 2: Bush did with the gay community. It's what countless Republicans
34:45
Speaker 2: have done with black Americans. This has been from Nixon on,
34:49
Speaker 2: this is consistent. Even if you look at a very
34:51
Speaker 2: analogous point in history for the Republican Party in right
34:55
Speaker 2: after Jimmy Carter was elected, the very first thing the
34:58
Speaker 2: quote unquote new right did was going and trying to
35:02
Speaker 2: weaponize these gay-friendly laws that had passed in cities like
35:07
Speaker 2: Miami and San Francisco across the country to turn that
35:10
Speaker 2: into a galvanizing issue for a divided party. The second
35:12
Speaker 2: part of that, I think, is related, which is, as
35:14
Speaker 2: we talked about before on this show, economic issues divide
35:18
Speaker 2: the Republican Party. Cultural issues unite them. And so they
35:22
Speaker 2: cannot have a conversation about Biden's infrastructure plan, the $ 15
35:25
Speaker 2: minimum wage, because 40, 50, 60, 70% of Republicans support
35:30
Speaker 2: elements of those things. What they can try to find
35:33
Speaker 2: some unity on are these cultural issues to try to
35:35
Speaker 2: find new ways to scare their base that America is
35:39
Speaker 2: changing faster than they are comfortable with.
35:42
Speaker 1: Raquel, what do you think about the timing? I saw
35:45
Speaker 1: you say the other day that as more transgender Americans
35:48
Speaker 1: become visible, sort of one of the effects of that
35:52
Speaker 1: is Republicans deciding that they're going to attack more.
35:56
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
35:57
Speaker 5: You know, I think visibility is in many ways this
36:01
Speaker 5: double edged sword. You know, I think that obviously it
36:04
Speaker 5: can expand some arenas in terms of access. You know,
36:08
Speaker 5: we see more trans people, openly trans people than ever
36:12
Speaker 5: before on television.
36:14
Speaker 4: Screens and in films and and.
36:16
Speaker 5: Now also running in political office. But of course, that
36:20
Speaker 5: also opens us up for attacks. And, you know, I
36:24
Speaker 5: think to your point, Dan, thinking about how important the
36:29
Speaker 5: 60s and the 70s were in terms of this modern
36:32
Speaker 5: LGBTQ rights movement, it only makes sense, right, that in
36:37
Speaker 5: many ways this moment as well is analogous in terms
36:40
Speaker 5: of trans visibility and what it means to now be trans.
36:44
Speaker 5: The number one enemy under attack, I think, in some
36:47
Speaker 5: ways for Republicans. And I think the other piece we
36:52
Speaker 5: also have to understand is like when we look at
36:54
Speaker 5: history as well, some of the first documented folks who
37:00
Speaker 5: were gender nonconforming and probably would have been considered trans
37:03
Speaker 5: by today's standards.
37:04
Speaker 4: Were criminal records.
37:07
Speaker 5: All of this is tied in many ways as well
37:09
Speaker 5: to anti-cross-dressing laws that were a big part of the
37:15
Speaker 5: social fabric some 50 or so years ago.
37:20
Speaker 1: So the New York Times had a piece last week
37:22
Speaker 1: that said all this legislation, quote, has been brought about
37:24
Speaker 1: by a coordinated and poll-tested campaign by social conservative organizations.
37:29
Speaker 1: who are focusing on women's sports out of, quote, an
37:32
Speaker 1: awareness that women, not men, could be more sympathetic advocates.
37:35
Speaker 1: So sure enough, most of the polling on this issue
37:39
Speaker 1: shows broad support, even among Republican voters, for trans rights.
37:43
Speaker 1: 87% of swing state voters say transgender people should have
37:47
Speaker 1: equal access to medical care. 60% of Trump voters say
37:50
Speaker 1: transgender people should be able to live freely and openly.
37:53
Speaker 1: But when A Politico morning consult poll asked specifically about
37:57
Speaker 1: banning transgender athletes from women's sports. Voters supported the ban
38:01
Speaker 1: 53 to 32 percent, including pluralities of women and millennials,
38:05
Speaker 1: while Democrats and even Gen Z were split on the issue. Raquel,
38:09
Speaker 1: I know you wrote an open letter with GLAAD for
38:11
Speaker 1: Transgender Day of Visibility that specifically talks about this issue.
38:15
Speaker 1: How should we respond to what is obviously a very
38:17
Speaker 1: cynical strategy by Republicans to target women's sports and make
38:21
Speaker 1: this issue somehow about women's sports?
38:24
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you know, I think the Republicans have a
38:28
Speaker 5: long track record of not actually showing up for women and.
38:34
Speaker 4: Our fights.
38:35
Speaker 5: So I think that we have to keep in consideration
38:40
Speaker 5: that track record. You know, when I think about the
38:43
Speaker 5: blocking of access around reproductive rights and reproductive justice, right,
38:47
Speaker 5: that is entirely connected to bodily autonomy and self-determination. And,
38:53
Speaker 5: you know, I think we need to make more of
38:55
Speaker 5: those connections there that a lot of the conservative agenda
38:59
Speaker 5: is about policing communities on the margins. So for me
39:02
Speaker 5: as a black transgender woman, the fight for reproductive justice,
39:06
Speaker 5: the fight for more voter protections and access is all
39:11
Speaker 5: connected as well to this fight for trans people to
39:15
Speaker 5: be protected as well under the law.
39:18
Speaker 1: It also seems like they are inventing a problem that
39:21
Speaker 1: does not exist, really. That there is not in schools
39:25
Speaker 1: and colleges across America, transgender Americans try and to play
39:30
Speaker 1: and to compete in women's sports. That's not like a
39:35
Speaker 1: big issue that needs to be taken care of. It
39:37
Speaker 1: seems like more of a political issue that they want
39:39
Speaker 1: to invent out of nothing.
39:41
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
39:42
Speaker 5: I mean, I think that this is the way that
39:44
Speaker 5: they can kind of insert themselves into the identity conversation.
39:48
Speaker 4: Right?
39:49
Speaker 5: They can't say that this is about identity, but truly
39:52
Speaker 5: this is how they can weaponize identity against particularly the left.
39:58
Speaker 5: I think that we have to pay close attention here
40:02
Speaker 5: because the ways that they are using, I think, conservative
40:07
Speaker 5: women in particular to kind of chop away at some
40:10
Speaker 5: of the left. I think also using conservative folks of
40:15
Speaker 5: color to kind of chip away.
40:17
Speaker 4: At many of the fights that the left has taken
40:20
Speaker 4: up is.
40:20
Speaker 5: Going to play out in the midterms and the next
40:23
Speaker 5: presidential election as well. You know, so this is a
40:27
Speaker 5: testing ground for them to see what kind of foothold
40:30
Speaker 5: they can get with making transgender people a scapegoat and
40:34
Speaker 5: saying that they are trying to preserve the rights of women.
40:39
Speaker 1: I also think the point you made about the parallel
40:41
Speaker 1: to reproductive rights is really important. I mean, even Governor
40:45
Speaker 1: Asa Hutchinson, who vetoed the Arkansas bill before his veto
40:49
Speaker 1: was overridden by the legislature, said, you know, these are
40:52
Speaker 1: really tough and private decisions that are made between children
40:57
Speaker 1: and their doctors and their parents. And for the state
41:01
Speaker 1: to interfere in a decision and a health care decision
41:04
Speaker 1: that's being made by children and their parents and their
41:06
Speaker 1: doctors is is such an overreach of the state. And
41:10
Speaker 1: I do wonder if we all sort of framed the
41:13
Speaker 1: issue that way, that here are these children and parents
41:16
Speaker 1: trying to make decisions about their life, about their health,
41:19
Speaker 1: and the government's trying to step in, that's probably even
41:22
Speaker 1: more effective with a lot of voters, I would imagine.
41:25
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I think the values kind of conversation
41:29
Speaker 5: around everyone having access to the health care they deserve,
41:33
Speaker 5: it spills over as well to having access to the
41:35
Speaker 5: education they deserve and as well housing and.
41:37
Speaker 4: So much more.
41:38
Speaker 5: And like you said, I mean, this is completely out
41:42
Speaker 5: of step with this longstanding idea of what conservative is.
41:48
Speaker 4: Conservatism is in the United States, right?
41:50
Speaker 5: That it's about keeping the state out of people's personal
41:54
Speaker 5: lives and personal decisions. And clearly people are not adhering
42:00
Speaker 5: to that, right? This is not about that anymore. It's
42:02
Speaker 5: about who we can make be the villain in this moment.
42:07
Speaker 1: Dan, you wrote in this week's message box about how
42:10
Speaker 1: Democrats should respond to the Republican culture wars. What do
42:14
Speaker 1: you think about how, you know, Democratic candidates should handle
42:17
Speaker 1: this issue. Obviously, there's going to be some Democratic candidates
42:21
Speaker 1: who are running in purple and red districts who see polling.
42:24
Speaker 1: They might get spooked. I know your argument is, certainly
42:27
Speaker 1: my argument, that we shouldn't and can't run away from
42:32
Speaker 1: these issues. We've got to take them head on. How
42:34
Speaker 1: do you think Democrats should talk about this?
42:35
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of lessons to learn about
42:37
Speaker 2: what Democrats have done right and wrong in the past
42:39
Speaker 2: in order to have brought up these cultural issues. I
42:42
Speaker 2: think there's a real similarity to how George Bush and
42:46
Speaker 2: the Republicans used the issue of marriage equality in the
42:49
Speaker 2: 2004 election to what is happening here, which is they
42:53
Speaker 2: had to find a way to make the issue affect you, right?
42:56
Speaker 2: It wasn't that two men were going to get married
42:58
Speaker 2: or two women were going to get married. It was
42:59
Speaker 2: that that marriage was somehow going to devalue yours, right?
43:02
Speaker 2: And that's how they had to go and find this
43:04
Speaker 2: issue of sports participation, right? Like you may, the polling
43:09
Speaker 2: shows pretty clearly people are broadly accepting of the trans community,
43:15
Speaker 2: but they went and found a place where this could
43:17
Speaker 2: affect your daughter, yourself. I think the first thing you
43:21
Speaker 2: have to do is you cannot buy into the premise
43:23
Speaker 2: of the argument. That's a mistake Democrats made in 2004.
43:26
Speaker 2: We oppose the constitutional amendment around making marriage between a
43:30
Speaker 2: man and a woman, but we felt the need to,
43:33
Speaker 2: at the beginning of every statement about it, restate the
43:36
Speaker 2: premise of the Bush argument. And we can't do that here.
43:39
Speaker 2: I think the first step is we have to educate voters. right,
43:42
Speaker 2: to what the issue is and what it isn't. And second,
43:45
Speaker 2: you know, I think whether it's these attacks, whether it's
43:49
Speaker 2: how Trump has attacked immigrants or the way he tried
43:53
Speaker 2: to use the caravan in 2018 is to, you don't
43:57
Speaker 2: play the game, you call out the game. You explain
43:59
Speaker 2: why they are bringing up this issue and say what
44:02
Speaker 2: they are trying to distract from, why they are trying
44:04
Speaker 2: to divide people, why they are victimizing, in this case
44:07
Speaker 2: in Arkansas, children in order to push forward this special
44:12
Speaker 2: interest agenda. You can make a million things, right? Tax
44:16
Speaker 2: cuts for the wealthy, cutting Medicare. This is all a
44:19
Speaker 2: smokescreen to smuggle that through. And we have to really
44:22
Speaker 2: call out and explain why they're dividing people. But I
44:24
Speaker 2: think it begins with educating people about what is really
44:27
Speaker 2: at play here and why their arguments are complete and
44:29
Speaker 2: total bad faith bullshit.
44:32
Speaker 1: Raquel, can you talk about both where the fight goes
44:35
Speaker 1: from here and what can people listening do who want
44:39
Speaker 1: to get involved in this fight?
44:41
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think to Dan's credit, a lot of this
44:45
Speaker 5: is about education and it's about having more of these
44:48
Speaker 5: conversations about the complexity of identity, of gender, all of
44:53
Speaker 5: these different things.
44:54
Speaker 4: I think one of the things.
44:55
Speaker 5: That's important to me is making sure, yes, trans people
45:00
Speaker 5: are beautiful and brilliant and fabulous and all of these
45:04
Speaker 5: amazing qualities.
45:07
Speaker 4: And we're all on a gender journey, right? It's not
45:10
Speaker 4: just trans people.
45:11
Speaker 5: And so when I think about the policing of our
45:14
Speaker 5: gender experiences, this is connected to All of the men
45:17
Speaker 5: and boys who are told they can't express themselves in
45:21
Speaker 5: certain ways and have certain emotions, right? They're being locked
45:25
Speaker 5: out of humanity in a sense. And all the women
45:27
Speaker 5: and girls who are told they can't be strong, brilliant, intelligent,
45:31
Speaker 5: capable leaders, right?
45:32
Speaker 4: Being locked out of opportunity.
45:35
Speaker 5: And for everyone who's dealing with all of that in between, right?
45:38
Speaker 5: Largely trans people, non-binary people, and.
45:41
Speaker 4: So much more.
45:42
Speaker 5: So we're all kind of connected in a deeper way
45:45
Speaker 5: than I think most understand. I think the other piece
45:48
Speaker 5: of it as well is we've got to continue this fight.
45:51
Speaker 5: So one of the reasons that the letter was so
45:54
Speaker 5: important was and working on that open letter with GLAAD
45:57
Speaker 5: was that I really wanted to see what our support
46:02
Speaker 5: actually looks like, right? And it was a signal even
46:05
Speaker 5: to me personally, because I didn't know how many folks
46:09
Speaker 5: supported the trans community, but this was a good demonstration.
46:12
Speaker 5: We got feminist thought leaders and feminist-led organizations to sign on.
46:17
Speaker 5: I mean, now we've gotten, you know, around, I mean,
46:21
Speaker 5: several thousand people signees, right?
46:25
Speaker 4: Or signatories.
46:26
Speaker 5: So I think we've got to continue to find these
46:29
Speaker 5: ways to make those signals to folks that there are
46:32
Speaker 5: people who stand and support the trans community, that trans
46:37
Speaker 5: people are human. So trans children are still children. They
46:40
Speaker 5: have parents that love them, guardians that love them. We
46:45
Speaker 5: have partners. We have friends. We have so many people
46:48
Speaker 5: that care about us as well. We're not just some
46:51
Speaker 5: imaginary concept living over somewhere else, right?
46:56
Speaker 4: We're right here with you in this human experience.
47:00
Speaker 1: Raquel Willis, thank you for coming on Pod Save America.
47:03
Speaker 1: And more importantly, thank you for all the work you're
47:05
Speaker 1: doing to stand up for transgender rights. We appreciate it.
47:08
Speaker 4: Of course. Thank you.
47:14
Speaker 1: Thanks to Raquel Willis for joining us today. Everyone have
47:16
Speaker 1: a good weekend and we'll talk to you next week.
47:18
Speaker 2: Bye everyone.
47:22
Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
47:25
Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producers are Jordan Waller,
47:29
Speaker 1: Jazzy Marine, and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by
47:32
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47:47
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