Latest / The Price of Music / Asking fans to help wind the cables: Picture Parlour on what it's really like to be a touring indie band in 2026

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Asking fans to help wind the cables: Picture Parlour on what it's really like to be a touring indie band in 2026 · The Price of Music

0:03
Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, brought to you by
0:06
Music Ally, the show that both looked at the finances of the
0:09
music industry while bringing you stories from the past week
0:11
in the pop business. I'm Stuart Dredge, and he's,
0:15
well, he's not here this week. Steve's in Texas for seeing a
0:20
lot of good bands but seeing very little good cider.
0:23
So he's in my thoughts and I'm flying solo today, except I'm
0:27
not really, because I've got some guests.
0:29
So today I'm joined by Catherine Ella from British band Picture
0:31
Parlour, who released her debut album The Parlour last November.
0:34
And we're also joined by David Martin, CEO of the Featured
0:38
Artist Coalition, which is an industry body here in the UK
0:40
that represents the rights and interests of music artists.
0:44
So we're going to be talking about the challenges of touring,
0:46
making ends meet when you're an emerging artist, even when
0:49
you're assigned to a major label.
0:50
And we're going to be talking about the new initiative, the UK
0:53
Artist Touring for that Steve and I discussed a bit last week,
0:56
but David is here to give us the full details on what it is and
0:59
what it can mean for artists. None.
1:18
Right, Welcome to The Price of Music.
1:20
Catherine Nella from Picture Parlour and David from the
1:23
Featured Artist Coalition. Thank you for being with us
1:25
today. Thanks for having us and great.
1:28
And I think it's been good. It's been a chance to talk
1:30
about, I think some of the challenges facing artists, but
1:32
also some of the optimistic stuff about how it can be
1:34
helped. So it's going to be a good
1:35
conversation. But I wanted to dive straight
1:38
in, I guess, with the origin story.
1:39
And I'm sorry because I know as a band you probably have to tell
1:41
your origin story to every journalist you ever talked to,
1:44
but you actually met an independent venue, which is
1:47
quite a good grounding point for our conversation.
1:49
So tell me, tell me about those. Those about how you met and what
1:52
that that place meant to you as fans but also as artists.
1:57
Hey, it's Ella from Pitch Paula here.
1:59
And yeah, we met at the Castle in Manchester, which is kind of
2:03
a cornerstone of the music scene in Manchester in Northern
2:07
Quarter. And yeah, it was an interesting
2:10
one. I was basically in a another
2:13
band at the time and I was playing a show and Kate in mega
2:18
fan style ended up coming to that show.
2:20
I was in, I was in the audience right to the front with a huge
2:23
sign. No, we both had the same bass
2:26
player in both of our and I guess back then everyone would
2:29
go to the castle every week and see whoever was playing.
2:32
Rhythm section problems. It's few and far between.
2:36
Yeah, so we, we kind of, I watched Ella's show and straight
2:39
afterwards I've found her in the bar and was like, we we need to
2:42
jam together. Like you're great.
2:44
And that's kind of how it how it happened.
2:46
We that next week I think we met her, we jammed, and the rest was
2:51
history. And then, yeah, I went around to
2:52
your flat and then I basically didn't leave for about 6 weeks.
2:55
We just kept writing and right in and getting to know each
2:58
other and yeah, it was a cool time.
3:01
Yeah, the castle is still going. The castle's still there.
3:03
We were there the other day. It's as good as it was back
3:06
then. So get yourselves down the
3:08
castle. It's a funny thing isn't it?
3:09
Because I remember like when I was at university, Norwich Arts
3:12
Centre was my equivalent. I remember the first time I went
3:15
there I was like, Oh my God, everyone here knows each other
3:17
and I don't know anyone. But very quickly like, wow,
3:20
everyone is so welcoming. It is a community.
3:21
It's not just a place where people go and see bands.
3:23
It's and you said that like you go there every week and everyone
3:26
would go there every week. It was, it was a community.
3:28
It wasn't just a place, was it? Yeah, it's, it's a huge part of
3:32
the grassroots scene. I suppose, you know, it's the
3:35
same when we moved to London, eventually it was we found the
3:38
Windmill, which I'm sure we'll speak about a little bit later.
3:41
But all of those independent venues become kind of a lifeline
3:45
for indie artists. And even just like being a
3:48
student and moving to a new place, you know, you find that
3:52
sort of community and and it's, it's your social, it's your
3:56
social life, isn't it really? Yeah.
3:59
Definitely. I mean, I've even asked about
4:00
the windmill because to me it's like a sort of a mythical place
4:03
because Steve goes there a lot and I'm out in the sticks and I
4:05
go. But it feels like it's a it's a
4:07
place where bands don't just play once they play a regular,
4:10
they have residency, their community, and then they have a
4:12
lot of people kind of playing with each other on it.
4:14
But is that how you found it? Like when you went there was it
4:16
was it kind of like community from the start of view?
4:18
Yeah, I mean, when just what you said when we moved down, it was
4:21
this mythical place. We'd heard about it from way up
4:24
north and everyone who'd been there would talk about how
4:26
incredible it is. And we kind of didn't know where
4:30
to go when we moved to London, did we?
4:32
Yeah, but we we knew of that one place.
4:33
That was the one place, yeah. OK, I guess that's a good start.
4:36
So. Then yeah, we just started going
4:38
down there, watching some shows, having a few drinks, and then we
4:42
got chatting to Tim, the Booker who like was so, so supportive
4:46
towards at the beginning of our journey.
4:48
We kind of owe him sort of everything, really.
4:50
I mean, yeah, we tried to get a gig for so it took months and
4:53
months. And Tim is 1.
4:55
He's like Gandalf. He's like one of those guys that
4:57
he's hard to pin down, but once you kind of click, he he he's
5:00
he's amazing. And eventually we got, we got
5:04
that gig. And then like you said, we you
5:06
just kind of keep going back. It's like you, you get sucked
5:08
into this place and you can't leave because it's just so the,
5:11
the, the feeling of being there. I mean, especially when you move
5:14
to a new place, you know, you're young and you're trying to find
5:17
your scene. You kind of, you go to these
5:20
places and you get this feeling and it's magical and it feels
5:24
like there's like minded people there and there's this, there's
5:27
this search for something new, especially as a musician as
5:30
well. You want to share what you've
5:31
got. And the window is that perfect
5:33
kind of like melting pot of just people who wanted to discover
5:37
new things, people who wanted to share cool stuff.
5:39
And it was, yeah, it was a, it was a pivotal moment for us, I
5:43
think, as a, as a band. And I mean, I'm always wary of
5:46
quoting previous interviews, but I think I read in one of your
5:48
interviews that is it, is it right?
5:49
You you kind of you're playing there and you're supporting
5:51
people. And by the time you had your
5:53
first headline gig, you sold it out, but there wasn't even any
5:56
music out at the time. Is that the the right kind of
5:58
chronology? Which which is that must be an
6:00
amazing feeling as a band like to be building that word of
6:02
mouth purely through having played live and people liking
6:05
you and coming back next time. Yeah.
6:07
I mean, I think that's a testament to how incredible and
6:09
how strong those venues are. Like, you know, it's, it's
6:13
without them, no one would have known who we were at the time.
6:16
And like you said, we didn't really have any music out, But
6:20
because we played the venue so many times, you've got the the
6:23
locals who just love music, who, you know, every time we play a
6:26
new show, it would kind of feel more electric.
6:29
And, and that's testament again to the live scene.
6:32
And and then it's a kind of word of mouth thing of like, you got
6:34
to get to this show. I mean, we still, we still go to
6:36
the windmill now and check out new bands.
6:38
Like there's a band called Little Granddad who we're huge
6:42
fans of and that they've kind of done a similar thing at the
6:44
time. I think Mary in the Junkyard,
6:46
they were doing it with us. And yeah, it's, it's, it's just
6:49
really cool. It's a really cool thing.
6:52
Yeah, it's funny because whenever we do the record the
6:54
show normally with Steve and I'm like, oh, what you've done this
6:56
week is I've seen little granddad again.
6:59
He's the. Second time, yeah, it's, it's,
7:02
it's a thing, but I don't know, it's just, it's, it's just
7:04
really, it's like magical. It sounds quite like whimsical
7:08
and cheesy to say, but it it's a magical thing to be able to go
7:11
see a band like in real time develop because our first, I
7:15
know our first live show must have been God awful.
7:17
I don't know. Tim must have been stood there
7:19
like, oh God, why, why have I let them play?
7:22
But you know, by by the 10th time you kind of like, oh, OK,
7:25
we we know the ropes now. You know this you, you learn
7:27
your sound, you learn what songs you want to play.
7:29
You can flip the set around and it's yeah, it was great.
7:33
I miss it. Yeah, the the community is so
7:36
loyal as well. Like you have people like Lou
7:38
who comes down and films, you know, all of the emerging
7:41
artists. And I've seen the videos, yeah,
7:43
from the. Artists, Yeah.
7:44
And that has been so instrumental, I know, to so many
7:47
artists with, yeah, basically having a fully formatted live
7:52
video on YouTube with the platform.
7:54
And that's how we got a lot of our sort of like early attention
7:57
from industry and stuff. So and not having to release
8:00
music because it's we we on, I know it's expensive to, you
8:03
know, record and release and that's not something that you
8:06
can you can just pull out of a hat.
8:08
So to be able to have people lend the words to a song or
8:13
connect with a tune and not have to release on like Spotify or,
8:16
you know, iTunes that that was amazing as well.
8:19
So big up Lou Smith? No.
8:21
Definitely. I mean, again, Terry forgot the
8:24
crunchy one, but I think did you your first single was
8:26
independent, then you signed to Ireland and the second single
8:29
came out. And I know that I guess a lot of
8:31
people who maybe just don't follow the industry, industry
8:35
thing will think right, Wow, you're signed to A to an
8:38
established label. You might be rolling in money
8:40
yet, but you're going to be OK. You're going to be able to pay
8:43
your bills. Focus on your craft, start
8:46
recording, start writing the first down recording down too.
8:48
And I think people tend to think, right, a deal is the
8:51
point at which everything becomes you're sustainable.
8:54
You're right. I know one of these was my day
8:56
is is how you it's not always that story for you.
9:00
So I guess talk about that time like, I mean, signing a deal
9:03
must have been very exciting. How quickly was that tempered by
9:07
old Jesus? We've got to pay the rent.
9:09
I mean, yeah, it felt like we got the golden ticket.
9:12
We couldn't believe it when we got our first e-mail from a
9:16
major label. We we thought it was a scam.
9:18
So we were sending it around to our mates, like, OK, who's
9:21
taking the Mickey? But then it turned out to be
9:25
legit. And then, yeah, we, we, well,
9:29
we've spoken about this a lot and we like, we wouldn't do
9:31
anything differently. No, no one's going to turn down
9:35
the opportunity. But kind of what you said,
9:37
Stuart, you very quickly learn that maybe it's not the golden
9:41
ticket that you imagine as a kid.
9:44
You know what I mean? Like a common misconception.
9:48
It was something that we we thought too, is if you signed a
9:51
major label deal, you would have like a living wage.
9:53
Like you'd be able to survive financially and then be able to
9:57
make the music. That's not always the case, and
10:01
we didn't know that at the time. Yeah.
10:02
So that's a common misconception.
10:04
But but like Ella said, you know, it's it's literally like
10:08
the the top of the mountain. That's what you think in your
10:10
head. Like it's a total dream.
10:12
You get a major label interested in you like you'd be a fool to
10:15
turn it down at the time every. Artist dream, I think, at least
10:19
for us, is, you know, to be able to focus on your project and
10:22
your art full time while it's being financially stable, it
10:26
felt. Like you.
10:28
Kind of like hacked the system. We were like this, this feels
10:30
too good to be true. But then, yeah, you know, like
10:34
what? What I'd say is, you know, never
10:36
be afraid to ask all the questions.
10:39
If you have any sort of instinct or uncertainty about something,
10:44
don't feel bad or like you're nagging for asking too many
10:48
questions. Because I feel like we did ask a
10:50
lot of questions because obviously, you know, we wanted
10:53
to make sure that we could have longevity.
10:57
And, you know, you get a lot of different things thrown at you
11:00
at once. And yeah, it's, it's kind of
11:03
it's when you don't have the like background or like a
11:06
financial fall back or the expertise and you're relying on
11:10
a lot of, you know, new people who you've met to make these
11:13
decisions for you. It can be quite overwhelming.
11:17
No, definitely. And so how, how was it at the
11:19
time? Because I know, I guess you
11:20
were, you were thinking about going off on, well, you know, if
11:24
you think about national tours at the time, but you're also
11:27
writing and recording presumably in that how, how was that as as
11:31
people, I suppose, how was that that kind of because I guess
11:33
you're also thinking, right, got to pay the rent.
11:35
We've got to be able to eat. We've got to find then we've got
11:38
to find these things. How, how was that experience?
11:40
Like you said it was, I guess it was quite new in that you you
11:42
hadn't had to budget as a band before.
11:45
Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where you learn on the
11:48
job. I mean, I reckon any any
11:50
musician out there would agree with me that when you're growing
11:53
up, you don't necessarily connect business with music.
11:58
Because to me, like music was this world of rock stars and
12:01
fairy tales and you romanticize it.
12:04
You know, you don't realize that behind it is this kind of
12:07
corporate. And it's not all doom and gloom.
12:09
But you know, the reality is that music's a business for for
12:13
a lot of people. And unfortunately, like for
12:16
artists, something that we don't realize early on is that it's a
12:19
business for you. You got to, you got to feed
12:20
yourself, you know, you got family that you might have to
12:23
look after. You got to keep a roof over your
12:25
head. So yeah, I guess early on we
12:28
didn't have have that knowledge. And so when we got the major
12:31
label deal, we were like sick. Like, like, we'll be able to
12:35
live. We can survive.
12:36
We can like pay the band. We we'll have a crew.
12:39
Like we can have a sound engineer, all those things that
12:41
we didn't have beforehand. And it felt like the stakes were
12:44
higher because we could play bigger venues and travel
12:47
further. But I guess something that, and
12:50
again, this I'm sure David will speak about, it is why the FAC
12:53
is so brilliant, is that there are organizations out there who
12:57
can intervene and help with that, I suppose, give access to
13:01
that information that maybe we didn't have at the time, which
13:04
is, you know, yeah, you do have to budget further down the line
13:07
than what you think you might have to budget for.
13:09
And you know, the sacrifices that we had to make early on in
13:13
terms of tour, touring's a huge thing particularly.
13:16
With touring, just the the sheer cost of, you know, getting
13:21
especially a full band and you know, crew sound engineer if you
13:24
have one, like out on the road. And yeah, what we kind of
13:29
realized pretty quickly was how fast that initial advance
13:34
depletes when you're salary, multiple people you're paying
13:39
for, you know, transport, van hire, accommodation, PDS, back
13:45
line if you need it. It goes pretty quickly from
13:48
thinking like, Oh my God, we can, you know, pay rent with,
13:52
with the deal we've got to be in.
13:54
Like, how are we even going to make this next tour happen?
13:58
It's way to think this is something we talked about with
14:00
Steve last week, the idea that there were some things like you
14:03
say, just to be able to tour, you need to have the tour burst
14:05
accommodation. You do.
14:06
But then also like as, as artists, you, you want to put on
14:08
a good show, you want to have the full band, you want to have
14:12
the. And so in a way, I mean, I, I,
14:16
is that something you've also had to face that idea of here's
14:18
what we'd like to do with our live show.
14:21
And it's not even like necessarily stadium pyro at this
14:24
point. It's like, like it's not, I
14:26
mean, just to have the full band.
14:27
Oh, obviously if you would like that, but was that something
14:29
you, you faced with it? Was it also the creative, I
14:31
guess, compromises to make about how we get out and make this
14:34
work? I think it's, I mean, especially
14:36
as a as a rock band, your USP is live shows.
14:39
You know that that's our thing. That's what we love to do the
14:41
most. It's where we find we'd hope to
14:44
find our audiences through live music.
14:47
So to to have to like accept that maybe the show isn't going
14:51
to be what you would like it to be in terms of, you know, not
14:53
having a sound engineer. So maybe the vocals, I don't
14:58
know, feedback. Yeah, feedback.
15:00
You know, all the all those like silly things where I suppose
15:02
like back in the day when we were playing the Castle or
15:05
Gulliver's or the Quarry, that was just jokes.
15:07
Like it's fun. It's like, it's funny, it's
15:09
annoying, but it's fine. But when you kind of like sign a
15:12
deal and you have what you imagine is this toss apart where
15:16
you can go out and play those shows to a because you're
15:19
playing to bigger audiences and and you want to put on the best
15:21
show to think that you still have to sacrifice those things.
15:25
It it was it was a shock to us because we were like, oh damn,
15:28
like, why did we sign all of our rights away?
15:30
Like we we could have just done this ourselves, you know, you
15:33
know what I mean? So.
15:34
I'm feeling good about leaving tape in the background.
15:36
So I might bring you in now, David, because I guess you talk
15:38
to obviously a lot of artists is, is this is this something
15:41
that is, is something you hear regularly from artists who are
15:45
taking their first steps into the business?
15:46
Like I think it came across very strongly.
15:48
They're like there's things you expect and things you don't
15:51
realise until you're doing them and then you have to make these
15:53
choices. Yeah, I, I think, I think
15:56
there's, there's, there's lots that Ellen Catherine have said
15:59
there that that we, you know, that's part of the reason that
16:02
we're doing the UK artist tour in front.
16:03
We hear these things repeatedly. And I think a couple of things
16:07
that that really jump out at me is the, the sort of Wizard of Oz
16:12
element. No artist is getting involved in
16:14
music because they love business, you know, then then
16:17
they're artists because they want to be artists.
16:20
And the, the FAC exists, I mean, often people don't understand
16:24
the FA CS for all artists, not just for independent artists and
16:28
it's for artists at all stages of their careers.
16:30
And, and often say this, that people, so the FAC is there to
16:33
tell you how to do things. We're not really, we're there to
16:36
show you what the landscape looks like because artists have
16:40
lots of different thoughts about how they might want to operate,
16:42
how they might want to run their business.
16:44
Some might want to sign to a major, some might not, you know,
16:47
so we're we're there to shine a light on how the industry works,
16:51
not to direct people in, in how to develop their careers.
16:54
But I will guarantee that that, well should I guarantee, I will
16:59
always guarantee that no artist or certainly no artist I've ever
17:04
spoken to has thought, you know, I really like to be in the music
17:07
business. I'll become an artist.
17:08
You know, it doesn't work that way round.
17:10
You have to retrofit all that stuff and pick up all those
17:13
skills Once you've, once you've decided that, you know, once
17:16
you've worked out that you're an artist.
17:18
And I think that's, that's really common.
17:21
I think the cost element is, is we, we hear about it all the
17:27
time. I think we often as well in the
17:30
industry, we we talk about the division between live and
17:34
recorded, but most artists don't think complete in a completely
17:38
divided manner. But both things are symbiotic.
17:41
I think similarly, most music fans don't go, I'm a fan of live
17:44
music. I hate recorded or I I hate
17:47
recording music and I love live. There's a symbiosis in both of
17:50
those things. And I think that's important
17:52
when we're talking about the, the touring fund as well,
17:54
because they both feed and, and breed off each other.
17:59
And, and I think that you've touched on a couple of things
18:03
there as well around, I think you mentioned this in the
18:05
podcast as well last week, Stu. There are two things that are
18:09
sold in the music industry, recordings and performances.
18:13
If you're really good at those two things, you can make some
18:15
money selling merchandise as well.
18:16
But really there's, there's 2 core things and, and in the live
18:20
sector that the delivery in the presentation of that performance
18:25
that it's the product really. Yes, beer is being sold and you
18:28
know, entrance fees are being sold etcetera.
18:30
But the product is, is the, is the performance.
18:33
And we're trying to do a number of things with the fund.
18:36
I'm sure we'll talk about it a little bit more, a couple of
18:39
aims if you like. But one of them is that
18:42
presenting the music how it should be presented.
18:46
You know, so often we're hearing particularly as a sort of, I was
18:52
going to say a certain level actually is, is right up to
18:55
quite a high level. Now everybody is compromising.
18:58
That's a problem when the whole point of this is to try and
19:02
present your music and grow your audience and, and present your
19:07
art basically how it should be presented.
19:09
So I, I think that's a really key part of what what we're
19:13
trying to do. But yeah, there's, there's lots
19:15
that Ellen Catherine have said that that we hear very
19:17
frequently. No, definitely.
19:19
I mean on the positive side to cheer up.
19:22
I mean, one of the things you've talked before and she's back,
19:25
it's about the kind of community that's built up around the band.
19:27
And and I always I sort of I think twice now about some I'm
19:31
saying the word fans because that is like a one way.
19:35
It implies A1 way relationship you're playing and they're
19:37
liking it. But when you've talked about
19:39
what you're doing with the with the WhatsApp group, you've got
19:41
with like it's, it's, it's a community of people, like minded
19:44
people, but it has that been something that's been the really
19:47
positive sides of actually been getting out there and playing to
19:49
people and seeing, seeing them. Yeah, I think ultimately the
19:53
community is 1, if not the most, one of the most important
19:57
things. You know we wouldn't be where we
20:01
are today without having such a loyal community.
20:04
And yeah, we, you know, they come to we, we have people that
20:08
come to all of the shows that we do.
20:09
And it almost becomes like, well, I suppose a friendship,
20:13
like when you're seeing somebody every single night.
20:16
And yeah, the the the. Great.
20:18
Yeah. I think especially again, on the
20:20
grassroots scene, you do you see the same people and, you know,
20:25
like, even for us, like some of the people who come to our shows
20:27
now, I met at another band's show and got talking to them and
20:32
we just, we clicked and they were like, like, they seem cool.
20:35
I'll check out their music. And then now those people come
20:38
to every show. So it's what's great is it's,
20:41
it's more of a human thing and like you saying to move away
20:44
from doom and gloom. I think the idea of a of a
20:47
community can sound wishy washy to people.
20:49
What, what does this community mean?
20:51
What is it? But realistically, like as an
20:53
artist, that having that direct communication with other music
20:57
fans who are just like, because that's, that's like the top and
20:59
bottom, right? We all just love music.
21:01
We want to be there on stage or we want to be there watching
21:04
someone else on stage and to be able to have a Direct Line of
21:08
communication through the things that you mentioned, like the
21:10
WhatsApp chat and hanging out after shows.
21:13
Like we've had some when we did the Music venue Trust taught, we
21:17
had literally some of our listeners like, help us pack
21:21
down. Like we had no clue.
21:23
Yeah. And they'll be like, it's the
21:25
Radio 6 Dads, man. Like they'll be like, I know how
21:27
to do those wires. Give me them.
21:29
Give me them. I'm like OK.
21:30
Thank you. And did they know how to do
21:31
those wires? They they did better than I do,
21:33
better than I do. That was that was not their
21:36
first rodeo. But yeah, it kind of grounds you
21:40
a little bit when you get cynical maybe about the the
21:43
corporate side of it or whatever.
21:45
It's kind of you play that show and you see those same people
21:49
who were just genuinely there to enjoy good music and and share
21:53
that with each other. And yeah, it kind of reminds you
21:57
why it's worth doing it if you have to make all those
21:59
sacrifices that we were talking about maybe sound quality.
22:02
And I mean, we spoke when we last saw David, we were talking
22:05
about a funny, The funny thing that happened to us, a show in
22:10
Sheffield where we we couldn't have like candidly couldn't
22:14
afford to take a sound engineer. And we had the in house guy who
22:17
was just the bar, the bar staff, because the other in house guy
22:21
had to run to another independent venue and and sort
22:23
them out. So we were like, OK, this will
22:25
be interesting. Let's see how it goes.
22:27
Halfway through the show, I just see this bloke like scream, like
22:32
where's the sound engineer? Like where's he gone?
22:35
Like the feedback was terrible. And I'm like, I can't really see
22:38
anything because the lights are like, you know, the lights are
22:40
in the way. I'd eventually see this bloke,
22:43
this punter just at the sound desk like he's he's effed off,
22:47
he's gone, he's gone. And I'm like, OK, so the sound
22:50
engineer's left. That's crazy.
22:51
The feedback's going crazy. But who had our back?
22:54
Just a, just a Radio 6 dad, just some bloke.
22:56
He was like, let me sort it girls, let me do it.
22:59
So it's that kind kind of thing where like, this could have been
23:02
a disaster. But actually it was funny.
23:04
And in the end it was all right. We were OK and.
23:07
Now he's your. Now he's your permanent sad man.
23:09
Now he's he works with us every every shit.
23:12
Now I'm joking. Definitely.
23:14
Well, I'm going to bring Dave back in in a minute.
23:16
But one thing I think that we we want to talk about, and you've
23:19
talked about this before is, is the kind of the risks that if
23:21
these challenges aren't tackled, if something done about, I guess
23:24
the diversity of people who who can afford to make music and
23:27
tour and become professional artists.
23:29
Because. And it's got up in the podcast
23:31
before this idea that there might be people out there who
23:34
are brilliant artists or brilliant artists in the making.
23:37
But especially if they're, say working class, they might just
23:41
have to duck out because they can't afford it now or they've
23:45
got difficult. But and how, I guess from your
23:48
point of view, how, how big a problem is that or how big a
23:51
risk is that? Because it's one of the exciting
23:54
things about British music is that it's, it's, it's not always
23:57
just been the kind of people from one particular community or
24:00
particular part of the country. I mean, to speak candidly, you
24:04
know, we, we recently parted ways with the label and we had
24:08
to move out of London. We can't afford to be there.
24:11
So that's why we're back up north.
24:13
And that's the reality for working class artists is and we,
24:17
you know, we, we the, the reason we kind of found out about the
24:20
FAC is, is we read something that Lily Fontaine from English
24:23
teacher had had said about, you know, sofa surf and making a
24:29
debut album signed to a major label deal.
24:31
Now, if that's how artists are having to cope signed to a major
24:36
label, what are independent artists doing?
24:39
What are the working class artists doing who don't have
24:43
that look that me and Ella had where we got that deal?
24:46
You know what I mean? So in that sense, it's, it's
24:50
just, it's, it's totally, well, it's morbid, to be honest.
24:53
It's, it's, it's a morbid place at the minute to be A, to be a
24:57
working class artist. Yeah, because I suppose it, it
25:00
seems pretty impossible if, if you don't have like personal
25:06
wealth to fall back on, then it's yeah.
25:09
Like where, where is, where's the money coming from to, you
25:12
know, make it all happen or to buy the gear that you need or to
25:15
hire the crew that you need. And I think that's something
25:18
that's become more apparent to us at this point in our journey.
25:23
You know, even when when you kind of remove just the
25:26
finances, for me, it was about access to information.
25:29
Like I'd never had anyone in my family who, you know, made money
25:35
from art, who understood finances and account
25:39
accountancy. And, and you know, I think it
25:42
was, was it Tom Robinson who did the podcast with you guys?
25:45
And he, he was speaking about when, when it when he began, he
25:50
didn't know he needed a lawyer. And you know, like he just
25:52
signed a bunch of deals and didn't that was us.
25:55
Like, you know, that that's the reality is you don't have that
25:57
if they're not teaching you that in, in the school I went to
26:00
anyway. So if we don't have that
26:03
information or access to it, we don't know that it's out there,
26:06
then we can't protect ourselves as working class artists.
26:09
And also just to know, kind of like know, have that confidence
26:15
to ask, like we said before, to ask a question to to maybe
26:19
question someone who feels like they know more than you do
26:23
because they work in the industry.
26:24
And Speaking of like advice that I give is always trishy gut
26:28
instinct about those kind of things.
26:31
Never, never be afraid to ask too many questions.
26:35
But yeah, there's a real gap in access to information.
26:37
It's basically what I'm saying. Yeah.
26:38
And. It's interesting because I know
26:40
one of the, the sort of the, I guess the cliches I get said is
26:43
people are going, oh, you don't need a label nowadays, you can
26:45
do it yourself. Or people who come out of a
26:47
major jail might say, great, I've got, there are certain
26:49
things I can do now I can take control of things and it's a
26:52
positive thing. But equally like you say,
26:54
there's a lot of work in that Jack of all trades, a lot of
26:57
stuff you have to understand for yourself.
26:59
And it's about how you get access to the information to let
27:02
you do that. Totally.
27:04
And that's where David comes into it really with the FAC is,
27:07
is if we'd have, if we'd have known about that maybe four or
27:10
five years ago, I think we would have made different decisions.
27:13
And like you said, Stuart, it's not all doom and gloom.
27:15
You know, any job you live and you learn.
27:18
You don't just start any job and know everything that you need to
27:20
know and it's going to be OK. If you're an artist and you're
27:25
listening, don't be afraid to become an.
27:27
Artist To reiterate, the music industry is.
27:30
Literally one of the best industries in the world.
27:32
But it wouldn't hurt for artists to maybe have a little bit more
27:35
context and information going into it.
27:38
And that's why it's great. Again, like with the FAC
27:41
amplifying the voice of artists, you know, like I said, we
27:44
wouldn't have known about the FAC and learnt so much if we
27:47
hadn't had Lily from English teacher speaking about it or Gus
27:51
from LJ speaking about things. So it's great for artists to
27:54
just chat about it. There's going to be problems in
27:56
any job, and there's it can it can be.
27:59
And can be fixed. That's the thing I think like,
28:01
you know, particularly with artists is kind of like a
28:03
pressure maybe, you know, internally or like from wider
28:07
teams to be like, you know, just, you know, everything's
28:09
going OK, Tell everyone everything's going OK.
28:11
That you don't need to share like any of these, like
28:14
intricate worries or details. But I think we've felt the most
28:18
empowered when we've spoken to other artists and been honest
28:22
with each other and realized, OK, we don't feel as isolated in
28:25
our situation anymore because actually this is an industry
28:28
wide issue. And yeah, oh.
28:33
Definitely. Well, a good point to bring Dave
28:34
back in. I mean, so we did like last
28:36
week, we did talk about the UK Artistry Fund, so I can probably
28:41
spare you doing the entire spiel about it.
28:43
But I guess to summarise it, it's money that's come from
28:45
donations from stadium and arena gigs an artist can apply for.
28:51
Like is it up to 7000 lbs each? But talk to us about I guess
28:55
what that is and how that's designed to help.
28:57
Because I know it's very much, it's not about we're going to
29:00
pay for your tour and you can do all the pyro.
29:02
It's, it's very specific kind of help, isn't it?
29:04
It it is and I should say this is Phase 1.
29:07
You know, we expect to to be running this more frequently
29:10
and, and with more funding in the future.
29:13
But yes, it's open to UK residents, 18 artists.
29:16
They're 18 plus and, and needs to be releasing original music
29:20
in this phase. And I should I, I caveat that
29:23
because we know it will evolve, but in this phase it needs to be
29:25
it's for headline tours with a minimum of three dates for at
29:28
least 75% of the dates of booked externally.
29:31
So not self promoted. You picked up on this last week.
29:34
Me me booking my my village hotel.
29:36
Wrecked. I'm not.
29:38
I'm not going to do that, I promise.
29:39
Yeah. So capacities of 75 up to 2000s
29:42
are quite broad and the shows need to take place by October.
29:47
And it is a maximum of 7000 lbs or 40% of the total cost of your
29:52
tour. And the reason for that is, is
29:56
firstly, as you, as you sort of picked up on so that people
29:59
can't, can't catch the loophole. Secondly, it's to show that
30:03
there's some demand and some risk in there.
30:06
Like, you know, artists need to get under their very first
30:08
shows. But, but we probably want
30:09
artists to be a little bit further on in that there is
30:12
they're, they're going to go and play to an audience.
30:14
So they need to, there needs to be some risk and somebody else
30:17
taking, taking, taking a, a, a, a, a risk on the shows and
30:23
putting, putting in some funding to the show.
30:25
So artists wanted to have 60% of those costs upfront.
30:30
And the the other reason is to trying to be efficient with the
30:32
money, trying to be effective with the money and trying to
30:35
show that the man rather than going here's 20 grand and you
30:37
fancy going and doing some live shows.
30:39
And there's not really a basis for it.
30:41
We're trying to make that money stretch as far as possible to,
30:43
to help artists develop careers. So that's the reason that it's
30:46
shaped that way. I mean, and it's challenging
30:49
because we're trying to do 4 different things.
30:52
We're trying to, as you say, allow artists to present
30:55
themselves in the right way. So, so many artists come to us
30:58
and say, you know what? I'm, I'm used to playing a trio,
31:02
but I'm playing to a backing track and triggering samples
31:04
because I can't afford to take somebody out with me.
31:08
So firstly, to present themselves right now, if
31:10
somebody comes and goes, I want to take 75 session musicians
31:12
with me. Yeah, they might get caught in
31:14
the system. They're a little bit, they might
31:15
not get through. So there's that part.
31:17
Firstly, some of it's to address market failure.
31:20
So it's not just about new artist, this is not about age.
31:24
This fund the some are the plenty of artists who have been
31:27
sustainable in the past will be sustainable in the future.
31:30
But right now there's a cute crisis in the cost of living
31:33
that means ticket demand is is maybe harder or it's harder to
31:37
raise, raise prices and their costs are much higher.
31:41
So we're, we're sort of solving market failure.
31:44
Yes, we do want to get new artists out as well where they
31:48
might have done some shows. It might be their second tour or
31:51
you know, and we want to because it is really hard now that that
31:55
link between building a recorded audience following and getting
31:59
out on the road. It's it is breaking.
32:01
It's getting harder to get out. So it is some of it is to
32:05
develop careers as well at the earliest stage.
32:07
And then the other point is getting, expanding tours, so
32:11
getting out to more regions, so bringing music to audiences
32:15
rather than having to make them travel, but also allowing
32:19
artists to grow their footprint as well.
32:23
So, you know, maybe even at the 2000 capacity and maybe you're
32:26
doing Academy music Academy music group shows, you know, the
32:30
O2, the O2 shows and you were doing 8 shows, but you're not
32:34
doing, I don't know, Leicester and Brighton because you would
32:37
lose foreground. Well, if we can top up that
32:40
foreground, the artist is going to those two locations, those
32:43
two venues get filled. Fans in those areas are able to
32:46
access that music in those areas.
32:49
And you're paying the supply chain because artists are paying
32:53
the, the largest, the collectively the largest
32:54
employers in, in the live sector.
32:56
You'll have heard me saying this repeatedly.
32:58
And artists are paying for so for so much.
33:01
So if artists are if the activity isn't happening, all
33:04
the infrastructure in the world doesn't doesn't help if the
33:08
activity isn't happening. What we saw in the pandemic crew
33:11
went off to be Amazon drivers, etcetera.
33:14
So it is to stimulate that supply chain of services and
33:17
personnel that rely on the activity.
33:19
Crew, technicians, agents aren't paid, managers aren't
33:22
commissioning if art, if the activity isn't actually
33:25
happening. We talked about Lily earlier
33:28
when we, we took, we went to Parliament with Lily and this
33:32
point came up, MPs saying, OK, So what are the costs for
33:36
artists? And it was just, it was a
33:37
beautiful moment. Lily pulled out a little black
33:39
book and opened it up and went right, photographers and
33:42
insurance and, and listed out all this stuff that artists pay
33:45
for. And actually it's quite hard for
33:47
the public to get their head round that.
33:49
It's much easier, isn't it, to go there's, there's either a
33:51
building there or there's not, or it's either open or it's
33:54
shut. It's much harder to get into.
33:56
It's a little bit to the point that Ella and Catherine were
33:58
making earlier. It's much harder to get your
34:01
head round the business of music and how it actually works.
34:04
And actually that artist is paying for that session musician
34:07
that artists. It is paying the managers
34:10
Commission, is paying agents, paying crew, is paying front of
34:13
house or not paying front of house in some cases, which is
34:15
one of the things that we want to solve because we want the
34:18
music presented better. So we're trying to do a number
34:20
of things, you know, we're trying to achieve a number of
34:23
aims and and ultimately we know that it's the activity that
34:28
needs to happen you. Know I wonder as well I mean you
34:31
mentioned the idea that that people don't understand the
34:34
industry. I wonder if there's always this
34:35
lingering feeling sometimes that like I remember, do you remember
34:38
when people first started complaining about streaming
34:40
royalties like years ago, you know, and a lot of people would
34:43
always say to us, well, you make your money from live, don't you
34:45
need to worry about streaming because you make loads of.
34:48
And there's I wonder if this lingual assumption that if
34:50
you're playing live gigs to rooms full of people, you're
34:53
making good money from it. And yet everything people were
34:56
talking about now is saying, actually, we are probably making
34:59
a loss playing this full room to people who love our music, which
35:03
is I think for a lot of people that's a real a shock because
35:05
they still live in this world where live music is what makes
35:08
the money. And that's all right then.
35:11
I think, I think especially as soon as you, I think because
35:15
it's such a visceral thing, it's such a human thing and such an
35:17
important thing to us live music.
35:19
And I think when you see it, it's, it's sort of, I can't
35:22
remember who, who said the quote, but like, it's music's
35:26
magic, isn't it really? It's the, it's the the only art
35:29
form that's invisible, but it makes you feel incredible.
35:31
And I think there's something in that, that sort of when you see
35:34
a live show, there's that element of it and there's these
35:37
people on stage that you think, wow, that's amazing.
35:40
So there's ultimately even in, you know, relatively small
35:43
venues, people are going well, you must be doing well because
35:45
it looks great and it sounds great and that must be an
35:47
amazing feeling. So you must be doing well.
35:50
But even at those and the reason we've got the capacity limit set
35:53
2000 for this phase, even at that level, you're paying for
35:57
more and more and more to present the audience with more
36:00
and more and more. So I think people don't quite, I
36:03
think you're right. Everybody would go well, you
36:05
make your money from live in the past.
36:07
I think people can't get their heads around that.
36:08
Shirley Manson was was talking about the tour in the US and she
36:15
was saying that that actually, I think they did for 30 dates or
36:17
40 dates. Actually, if they'd done 10,
36:19
they would have made the same money.
36:21
And I think that is quite hard for people to get their head
36:24
round. But again, on those ten dates,
36:27
the band might have made the same money.
36:29
Everybody else would have got paid.
36:31
Everybody else would have been getting paid at the expense of
36:34
the artists. And the other thing I would say
36:36
is the, the, the, the, the ability for right now in the UK,
36:43
the ability for artists at certain level and, and to again,
36:47
that's why 2000 cap is there at the moment.
36:51
The ability to raise ticket prices is really impeded by the,
36:55
by the economic situation in the country right now.
36:57
So this, this, this double hit, if you like, of rising costs and
37:02
the inability to to raise tickets without impacting demand
37:06
is really, really, really challenging for artists at that
37:09
level. And ultimately what we've got
37:12
in, in the time of the price of tickets hasn't really moved
37:15
within those capacity levels. Beer has gone up, your taxi has
37:20
gone up, you know, everything else has gone up, but the artist
37:23
is subsidizing the price of that night out by maintaining their
37:26
ticket price because they're they're fearful of impacting
37:30
demand. So these are the sorts of things
37:33
that are in our mind and that we're trying to solve with with
37:35
what would. Well, look, when I mean just I
37:37
guess to wrap up really, I mean, so one thing is obviously this
37:39
is going to go out I think on the 17th, 18th of March ish.
37:44
So David, is the fund going to still be open?
37:47
How can I just find out more about it will be future rounds?
37:51
What should they do if they want to go and find out more right
37:53
now? Yes.
37:54
So it's go to www.thefac.org/ukat fund
38:01
everything is there. Applications close at 20 very
38:05
specific 2359 on the 20th of March.
38:09
So it's quite tight. If if people are only hearing
38:12
about it now, hopefully they're not only hearing about it now.
38:14
We would say to artists come and join the FAC and we'll keep
38:17
we'll keep you updated about all of this stuff.
38:20
The plan is from our side. We would like to be running
38:23
this. The nature of touring isn't
38:25
conducive to having one round of this per year, right, That we
38:27
would like to be running this on a regular basis.
38:29
We know that the demand is there to be running this on a regular
38:32
basis and right now we've limited what we're doing as
38:35
well. We don't have support tours in
38:37
or festival shows, for example. As we expand that, the demand
38:40
will increase. So the aim is that we'll be
38:42
running hopefully at least one more round this year, perhaps
38:45
more. It it depends on the trust, but
38:47
we'd like to be running this much more regularly because
38:49
that's really that's really responsive and artist artist
38:55
centric. That's the way to do it.
38:56
So the plan is to be doing this much more frequently.
38:59
And look, ultimately there's going to be a point in future
39:02
where an artist is going to be funded from this and is going to
39:06
somewhere down the line be paying in at the top end.
39:08
And I think that's going to be, you know, I think that's going
39:10
to be an incredible moment as well.
39:11
And it's been exciting seeing. I think we were like Harry
39:13
Styles. I mean, I know Harry Styles
39:15
didn't necessarily start playing in the castle, but wolf allies,
39:18
like a lot of these big artists are looking at this and going
39:20
actually, we do want to do a bit.
39:21
We do see where this comes from and and maybe Harry Styles
39:24
didn't start in a tiny venue, but the people who are playing
39:27
with Harry Styles who did, the people putting on the show.
39:30
So it's exciting to see that kind of payback cycle.
39:33
Trickle down effect. Yeah, but I guess Catherine,
39:36
Ella, I mean what's happening next with Picture Parlour,
39:38
because I think you've moved to Liverpool, you've come out of
39:41
the label deal. But what I mean, you've, you've
39:43
got a tour coming up, is that correct?
39:46
Yes, in April, sorry, excuse me in April.
39:50
Yeah, we're going on a headline tour and we're kind of running
39:55
through all the the budgeting and cost of that at the moment.
39:58
So that's been fun. Yeah.
40:00
So we got that tour, which is going to be sick because we've
40:03
not done a headline tour in in quite a few months, really.
40:06
Yeah. So that'll be sick.
40:07
And then to be honest, like you said, being, being out of the
40:09
deal, it feels it's kind of like that freedom that like, OK, we
40:14
can go in any direction. So we've just been writing a
40:18
lot, to be honest, which has felt amazing because we didn't
40:21
write for for quite a while. So we're just kind of building
40:24
up the blocks again, which is a good place to be, I think.
40:28
Yeah. Yeah, I think David talked about
40:30
magic. I mean, for me, I always feel
40:32
like just the the idea of people being having that time to write
40:34
a song is a wonderful thing for me.
40:37
So it's good to hear that you've kind of got that time and you're
40:39
you're getting that even with all the other stuff you're
40:41
having to do in the budgets. So great.
40:44
Well, I mean, thank you all so much.
40:46
And I think like you say, David explained, people can go and
40:49
join the featured artist coalition, find out about the
40:51
fund, find out about the upcoming tour.
40:54
And yeah, I would say thank you both of your time.
40:57
Thank you. Nice one.
40:59
Thanks for having us. So hopefully you enjoyed this
41:01
interview. I mean, there's no hiding the
41:03
challenges facing artists at the moment, but there are also some
41:05
reasons for optimism. So I really appreciate
41:07
Catherine, Ella sharing their experience and David coming on
41:11
to tell us about the scheme and how it can work.
41:13
Normal service to resume next week with Steve fresh off the
41:15
plane from Austin. Well, I'm possibly fresh,
41:18
Depends how it's gone. But thanks very much for
41:20
listening. If you're enjoying the show,
41:22
please spread the word. You can support us by Patreon as
41:25
well, where you can start to be a super fan and join us for our
41:28
usual weekly lock in where Steve and I sit down after hours and
41:32
discuss some of the things we're thinking and doing as well as
41:35
topics on the show. Sign up at patreon.com/the Price
41:39
of Music. And if you'd like to get in
41:41
touch with us, we love receiving your questions, your comments,
41:44
thoughts on what you've heard. e-mail us at the Price of Music
41:46
podcast@gmail.com. Till then, take care everybody.
41:50
Cheerio.