Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / How to Stop Overthinking in Real Time | Donna Jackson Nakazawa | Happiness | E524

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How to Stop Overthinking in Real Time | Donna Jackson Nakazawa | Happiness | E524 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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  Speaker 1: All in the.
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  Speaker 2: Show notes with links to everything. All right, now, let's
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: get into today's episode. Today we are talking about something
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: a staggering number of people experience on a daily basis,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: maybe you, and something that almost no one has a
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: name for, much less a strategy for dealing with it.
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  Speaker 2: It's called rumination.
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  Speaker 3: Those sticky, sticky thought spirals that you get stuck in
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  Speaker 3: and you may distantly notice that you're rehashing that conversation
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: two days ago, or the thing your teenager said in
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: the kitchen, and it's going over and over in your head.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: It's that negative, repetitive thought loop that we want to escape,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: but we lack the skills to get out of them.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: That mental replay, the three am spiral, or the conversation
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: that you had like four days ago that you're still
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: thinking about your brain overthinking, super common, super problematic. There
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: are many consequences of this, and my friends, we need
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: strategies for managing it. And that is what we're getting
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: into today.
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  Speaker 1: This is part of the nuts and bolts of being alive.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: It is a truly human part of our conduction and
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: rumination is really a survival response gong rogue.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: We have so much to discuss, and I'm so glad
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: you're here. If this is your first time tuning in. Hello,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: I am your host. I'm doctor Lisa Marie Bobby. I
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: am a psychologist, i am a marriage and family therapist,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: and I'm also a board certified coach. And every week
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: on Love, Happiness and Success, we're diving into the ideas,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: the strategies, the solutions that can help you grow personally,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: cultivate a better relationship, develop a stronger and more compassionate
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: sense of yourself, and also get subtraction in what you
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: want your life to be including your career or other
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: outcomes you'd like to create. And today's topic could not
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: be in more alignment with all of that, because the
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: way we think shows up in every aspect of life,
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: and being able to manage our mind effectively is a
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: cornerstone skill of being able to feel happy and well,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: have nice relationships, and even get ahead in your career.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: And today we are talking with a true expert on
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: this topic. Donna Jackson Nakazawa is the author of five books.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: She is a science journalist who's explored so many different things,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: including Girls on the Brink, The Angel, and the Assassin,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: and her newest book is called Mind Drama, The Science
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: of Rumination and How to Outwit your Inner Defeatist.
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  Speaker 1: We really do as soon as we bring up this topic.
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  Speaker 1: Mind drama on basically whether someone is you know, a
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  Speaker 1: taxi driver or a friend on a walk or podcast,
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  Speaker 1: so like everyone's way, like okay, me, me me, It's
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  Speaker 1: part of the human condition, it's part of the nuts
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  Speaker 1: simple being alive. And yet one third of adults do
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: not even know what the term means. They're not even
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: familiar with what the word rumination means. So you know,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: as a psychologist. It is very, very difficult to solve
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: a problem that people can't name and won't talk about.
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  Speaker 1: So that's what we're here to do.
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  Speaker 2: Why don't you unpack this experience of rumination what it
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: really means and take us into this thing we can
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: all relate to.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: But like is it well? In the common vernacular, rumination
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: is those sticky, sticky thoughts virals that you get stuck
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  Speaker 1: in and you may distantly notice that you're rehashing that
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: conversation two days ago, or the thing your teenager said
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: in the kitchen, or the comment you made, or why
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: you haven't heard back from someone you texted or emailed,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: or something that happened at a family dinner with your siblings,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and it's going over and over in your head. It's
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: that negative, repetitive thought loop that we want to escape,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: but we lack the skills to get out of them.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: And they're often marked in a couple of ways. One
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  Speaker 1: is replaying the past, as we said, forecasting what's going
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  Speaker 1: to happen with that person's situation, scenario, problem in the future.
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  Speaker 1: In the past, psychologists used to separate out worry about
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: the past or worry about the future, but really in
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: doing the research, no one separates that out anymore because
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: and we'll nerd out about this. It turns out the
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: area of the brain that gives rise to our ruminations
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  Speaker 1: and locks us in them in those sticky, corrosive ways,
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  Speaker 1: it's the same area that gives rise to your worrying
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  Speaker 1: about the past, replaying it at nauseam, and forecasting into
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  Speaker 1: the future. If you want to think about rumination this way,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: you can pretty quickly spot when you're doing it, when
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: you realize you're harshly criticizing and judging yourself and harshly
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  Speaker 1: criticizing others in a repetitive and cyclical way. And it
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  Speaker 1: can also be marked because it makes you feel really bad.
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  Speaker 1: No one ever feels good doing it. So we can
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: go into and break down other ways we can differentiate
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  Speaker 1: healthy thinking and emotional processing for rumination. That's really how
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: we define it.
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  Speaker 2: And it's interesting because I kind of thought we were
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: talking about one part of this but then sort of
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: shifted into another. Like what you're describing to me with
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: my psychologist ear right, is this mental time traveling, either
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: going into the future or back into the past. But
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: then you're associating it with this self criticism or criticism
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  Speaker 2: of others. And what this is making me think about
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: is the science behind a very well established theory of
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: change in my profession called cognitive behavioral therapy.
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, we have the whole cognitive theory, but it's
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: defined by having these unhelpful thinking patterns that tend to
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: come in a few flavors.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: But you're describing two of them.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: That are really powerful and that will vary predictably make
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: you feel badly. So, actually, therapists like me coming with
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: a person who might be experiencing clinical depression or clinical anxiety,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: taking a look at what are those cognitive patterns you're
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: engaging in, because shifting these is part of the path
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  Speaker 2: towards healing, and this is what your work is going into.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I'm add to that that what you're seeing,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: you'll recognize that. In my research, what I uncovered is
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: that clinical psychologists have found, through clinical research through the universities,
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  Speaker 1: that our tendency to ruminate maybe one of our most
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  Speaker 1: harmful human habits. It is tied to a greater likelihood
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: of developing depression, society, substance use, eating disorders, and also
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  Speaker 1: cognitive decline. This is an area of the brain that
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: is associated with Alzheimer's.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't know that.
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  Speaker 1: So the work of Susan Nolan Hoxem at Yale found
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  Speaker 1: that it was the rumination was the biggest transdiagnostic risk
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: factor for these mental health and other disorders. So we
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: really don't want to be going there now. That said,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: just because you're ruminating, it doesn't mean that you have
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: a diagnosis or a mental health disorder of anxiety or depression.
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  Speaker 1: I want to be very clear. This is part of
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  Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of being alive. It is a
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: truly human part of our condition. It is one of
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: the things that separates us from animals is that we
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  Speaker 1: have this ability. Right However, the brain is very very
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: good at getting you deep into your stories. It's terrible
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  Speaker 1: at getting you out of it because of the way
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  Speaker 1: this area of the brain works. And one thing I
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  Speaker 1: like to remind people is that rumination is really a
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  Speaker 1: survival response going rogue. Think of it this way, stepping
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: back across evolutionary time. If you were sitting at the
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: communal fire and you were getting laughed at or dismissed,
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  Speaker 1: or people were rolling their eyes when you walked in
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: and sat down or sniggering. That was a physically dangerous
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: proposition because if you were in some way ostracized big
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: O or little O, maybe you were set further at
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: the edge of the of the tribe, or you could
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: be picked off by other marauding tribes, or you might
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: be fully ostracized. So over time, our sensitivity to emotional
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: social stress evolved along with our immune system, so that
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: at the very first sign of emotional and social distress,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: very first sign, our immune systems prick up to prepare
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: for physical danger. And that is why when I work
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: with young people around the country, I try to help
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: them understand like social distress that is the most acute
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: kind of stress we can face. Our brain clocks it
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: as physical thread and it's helpful to remember that this
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: is how the brain works. But now that neuroscientists have
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: a very good handle through fMRI scans and lots of
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: research how this part of the brain developed to ruminate,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: what causes it to riminate more, and where it's happening
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: in the brain, we actually have some incredible neuroscience based
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: text to get in there and bring our brain back
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: online for creativity and ingenuity and all the good things.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: We really prefer to be thinking about rather than who
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: said what yesterday?
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, I can't wait to dig into those. But thank
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: you so much for explaining that so beautifully. And you know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: to regular listeners are friends with us, particularly when we've
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: been talking about things like relationship loss, heartbreak, recovery, this
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: is when it's so prominent, and Donna, thank you for
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: just explaining this in such a coherent way, that our
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: attachment bonds and social connections are actually linked to our
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: survival drives and exactly that we are actually hardwired to
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: be very sensitive to these shifts in these social fabric
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: or status signals. Are we connected because it was so
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: linked to our literal survival?
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Can we just talk about this though, because I feel
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: like many times people think that there's something wrong with
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: them for having these reactions. They classify themselves as being
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: anxiously attachment or having an anxious attachment style, or they
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: want to say anxiety or depression, when like, no, this
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: is actually how we're all built yees.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So it's interesting you say that. So I do want
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: to say that there are two things I'm going to
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: talk about here, and they go together. One is to
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: touch back to what we were just talking about your audience.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Is that we also know that women ruminate more than men,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and we also know that women happen more robust sort
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: of stress machinery response to social emotional stress. And that
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: is also related to our evolutionary biology and our need
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and desire to keep our kids safe and ourselves saved
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: by paying close attention to social cues. So it's really interesting.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: I've written a lot about that in other books, but
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I also wanted to just say that this part of
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: the brain, and this is for the nerds out there,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: and I'll keep it super simple, but I am a
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: science writer and that's how it is. I love it. Yeah.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: So this part of the brain that we're coming to
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: look at more closely is called the default mode network.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: That is just a super fancy tech word for three
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: areas of the brain here, here, and here which interface together.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: And you guys just listen to this on audio, not YouTube.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: So Donna just pointed to like the front of her forehead,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, forever.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: They're actually not in the same space in your brain.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: They're in three separate areas. And it used to be
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: thought that these three areas were talking a lot to
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: each other. We knew that, but it was like, oh,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: but they're not doing very much. No. No. This is
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: the area of the brain that from the very first
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: moments of conception and of course after birth, is listening
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: for cues of safety, mattering, and belonging, and it wires
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: and fires up based on those messages from our first environments,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: our first caregivers, our first family members, our first siblings,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: onto whether we feel safe or unsafe, that we matter
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: or don't matter. Of course, that's a matter of touch,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: it's a matter of gesturing, it's a matter of bonding.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: It's a matter of attachment to kat he just said.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: And this area of the brain, one part of it
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: wires up in a way that gives rise to stories
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: across our lifetime, what I call those mental movies or
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: montages or film reels. And another area gives rise to
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: those intense emotions, that intense interior emotion that companies those
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: mental montages that kept playing when we're ruminating. And another
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: area wires up somatically for those somatic sensations, feelings in
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: your body, like feeling a knot in the pit of
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: your stomach. So why am I telling you all this?
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Why am I telling you these nitty greedy details about
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: your brain, because here's what I want people to know.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Your ruminations. Things you ruminate about the movie montage is
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: the intense emotions, the somatic, bodily sensations that arise, and
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: all intertwine to keep you in that relentless thought loop.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: That thought spiral over and over and you just wish
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: you could get out of it, and you find, oh
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: my gosh, I drove all the way to this doctor's
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: appointment my head was just honest, thing that happened this morning,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: or something at work. All of your rumination is a
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: signal fire from your past. It is a stignal fire
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: from your past that is asking you to pay attention
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: to those exiled parts of yourself, whether it's the anger,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the hurt, the humiliation, the lost, the grief, the wishing,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: the wanting things that happen, and above all those messages,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: the self beliefs that you have carried along inside of
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: you your soul and really are not yours to carry anymore.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: It's beautiful, so well said, And to not be angry
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: or annoyed with yourself for doing this, but really lean
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: in and take a closer look and understand why it
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: makes sense, and.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: What part of yourself needs attention. Also, we're all ruminating
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: more than we used to. Research shows us that we're ruminating.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: These areas of the brain on fMRI scans are lighting
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: up more intensely and more often than they did five
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: or six years ago. Of course, we have a million reasons,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: living in a perfect storm of a fire hose of
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: unending news, or sending a lot of time on the
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: war where algorithms are activating that stress, sense of conclusion, exclusion,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: social emotional fears that we have, and of course the
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: pandemic barely in the rear view mirror, and school shootings
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: and wars breaking out all over the globe, and a
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: loneliness epidemic. So we see that reflected in epidemiological studies
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: of well being. We're seeing some of the lowest levels
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: of well being reported among people, young adults and adults
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: then we have in decades, many decades. So I line
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: up all those stats in the book. But when you
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: put it together, the neuroscience, the fMRI scans with the
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: epidemiology of how we're doing, we're ruminating too much. You're
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: not alone. I guess that's what I want to tell people.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: You're not alone.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Well, that's also why your work is so important, Donna,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: which is giving visibility into yes, a, you're not alone.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: But I know you also go into some very specific
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: and ideas and strategies that we can begin to apply
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: in order to start getting out of those thought spirals
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: and feeling better. And so when we come back from
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: this very quick break, I'd love to get into that
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: and also though highlight the importance of it, because this
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: is gaining intensity, it's getting more prominent. And you also said,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: while this is so common, everyone is vulnerable to it.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: If you can't get a handle on it, it.
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: Does contribute to bigger and more intense experiences, including actual
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: capital d depression, anxiety, I feel like trauma.
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• 23:34
  Speaker 2: So donad. Just before the break, we were talking about
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: the importance of your work and the science of rumination,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: and the promise was that we are going to start
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: exploring some of the strategies or ideas that you've uncovered.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: They can help people start to get our handle on
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: their internal experience. It's the best start point for this conversation.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: I think that the thing we always want to remember
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: is that we are all ruminating about the same things
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: for the same reasons. The number one thing we ruminate
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: about is whether we matter to the people who matter
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: to us. We are wired to replace stories around mattering
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: and belonging. And yet here's the thing that got me
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: in researching the book. None of us have been taught
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: a single strategy to understand what rumination is, why it happens,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: and how to get out of it. So let's dig into.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: The strategy, actually share a personal thing, just in response
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: to what you share. Yes, I'm sitting here reflecting, and
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: maybe you could speak to this. I am fortunate enough
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: to be in a place in my personal life where
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: I feel like secure in my personal relationship ships and
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: and like, you know, I've been married a long time,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: generally positive relationships with most people, and so certainly if
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: something weird happened or I was like, you know, she
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: seemed a little off.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Is she mad at me?
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Like, I can definitely go there, right, But but I
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: tend to ruminate or worry about things related to like
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: more practical things or you know, being a business owner,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: like there's it's like more yes, crimination, but also like
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: financial safety and if this and that kind of thing,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: and so like I'm just curious, are there different.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Dimensions of this or did.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Your work uncovered that it's really primarily relational or does
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: this tend to show up in different ways for different
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: people in terms of nature of their wells.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: I guess we're going to get into that. Oh, okay,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: I think I'm going to make you a guinea pig. Yeah,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: I'm ready. So so let's think of it this way.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Your category rising, Okay, relationship belonging, as being different from
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: our basic you know Maslow need or belonging. Okay, we
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: have a need to know that our work matters. Relationships
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: are key. It so is knowing that our work matters,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: that we are seen in a way by our community
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: or the world around us in a positive way, that
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: we have a contribution to make. So there is mattering
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: and belonging regarding our work. Financially, we ruminate about money.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: We all ruminate about our work because in that hierarchy
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: we must have. Remember Maslow's hierarchy, Like the very basic
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: need is to be able to provide food, shelter, housing,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: so that we can meet these other needs. That is
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: the very first layer of knowing that we belong in
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: our safety belonging resonates for a lot of people. But
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: another way to slice it is safety, financial safety, work, safety,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: safety in the workplace. So often we're ruminating about relationships
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: in at work, but we absolutely ruminate a lot of
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the interviews that I've been doing have been for work
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: organizations because we ruminate about our work. Are we being seen?
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Are we mattering? Here is the work we're putting out
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: there mattering? And of course we're tied to the need
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: and desire to provide for our families. So let me
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: make you funny pick. So the most effective way that
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I know to help people recognize their rumination and step
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: out of it, get a little distance from it, and
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: then of course there's more work to be done. But
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: if you're willing to go through the Missed framework with me,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: this is a framework that I developed first of all
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: writers of acronyms. So there you go. Missed. I chose
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: because guess what, when you're ruminating, you're lost in a
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: mist of your feelings. You can not see clearly what
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: that looks like in the brain. Two hundred and sixty
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: seven areas of your brain that need to light up
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: for thought, for working through problems, for compassion for yourself
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: and others. They're stuck in that one little area of
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: the brain, the defaultment network on lockdown. So the Missed
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: framework really draws on what we know about the brain
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: to help us recognize our own personal rumination patterns. So
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you to think about something. You
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: don't have to share it with us in detail, but
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: something that you've been fixating a little bit on, ruminating
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: on a little bit, and it just keeps coming to
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: your mind. It keeps spinning a little bit relentlessly more
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: than you would like it too. It doesn't have to
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: be about a person or a human interaction. It could
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: just be something completely different. So about something and.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: What comes to mind when I ask, that's good and
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: actually there's an immediate answer, and it's a bit of
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: a pattern and just a tiny bit of context. My
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: primary I love doing this podcast. This is a passion
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: project for me. To hang out with people like you
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: and provide great ideas for our friends that are here
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: with us is like my favorite thing. But my day
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: job I run a counseling and coaching group and I've
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: talked about this on the show. I'm in a season
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: where it's really in a lot of transition. I think
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: in the past it has been more traditional counseling and
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: coaching and now really moving more into supporting therapists with
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: their continuing education and development and as part of that
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: exploring coaching psychology and launching different programs and support. But
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: as a business owner and a time of transition, having
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: to think a lot about do I have the right
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: people in the right seats, And it is this is
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: a person that is being paid to do X Y
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Z role and it isn't happening this way? And how
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: do I solve this problem? And the investment versus the outcome?
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: So that is where I tend to go. But to
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: your point, some of it is relational, some of it is.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I think of your own business.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Well, but there's like security survival drives, and you know
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: it's all tied to financial decisions. And I want to
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: go deeper into too, my story certainly and walk through
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: your steps. I have to ask you one thing I
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: mentioned in detail at the beginning, that that women tend
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: to be more primed to notice like social fluctuations, like
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: disturbances in the force. Is there any evidence that suggests
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: that men might be more wired around that safety stability?
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Can I provide? Because in my own situation, I'm the
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: primary bread earner for my family, and so have you
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: noticed that breakdown in gender roles?
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: Well, you know is that women and girls tend to
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: ruminate more in certain areas. The brain get more perfuse,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: more active when we're ruminating in ways that I find
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: this so fascinating, that cause us to act in ourselves
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: in self derogatory ways, to criticize ourselves interesting, and that
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: what we see is that when there is high stress
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: in the developing male brain, we see more areas of
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: the brain get activated that are associated with acting out
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: behavior attention focused. For girls and women, areas of the
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: brain are activated that are more correlated with kind of
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: like a climate change in the brain that is associated
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: with what we see in anxiety impression.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Interesting that external versus internal.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: I think we all recognize that as women our tendency
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: and when we are talking about the workplace, and I
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: am doing an interview about the workplace, we see women
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: turn in on themselves, war right about their work, more
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: second guessing, more fear. And then that of course pumps
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: up against the impossible expectations that women face. Right, like
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: you like me, right your own business. But you're too assertive,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: you're too aggressive, You're too you're just too passive. Right,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: you can't hit the right mark no matter what you do.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: And so when I hear you talking about staffing and
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: scaling up as a female business owner, and I can
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: just feel your demeanor is extremely kind and other oriented
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: and relational, and you have that air about you. It
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: just emanates and I can see that making these decisions
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: when they're tied to your personal families, breadwinning and livelihood
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: and supporting your family and whatever it may be paying
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: for you your kids college and the twenty year old
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: car or whatever. We all have this and the relational
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: need to run your business in a thoughtful way that
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: reflects real leadership. It's difficult and it can get sticky. Yeah,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: I don't think that that's anything but a reflection of
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: how much you want to make things work for everyone
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: around you, which is by the way, relational.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: But but yeah, it's like bringing it all into focus,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: and it truly is part of a whole, you know,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: and I think probably most people here with us right
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: now can relate that it's driving from this you know,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: certainly need for a connection, but also like a responsibility
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: to others, responsibility to my family, to the business, to
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: the people that my business supports. I mean, like so
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: many different things. And it does literally keep me up
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: at night. I go through the days, I'm usually okay,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: but when I lay.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Down to sleep and then it's like number one time
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: we reiminate for one time we were remade. So let's
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: do missed or you're right, I'm ready. So let's remind
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: people that mist is an acronym I've created for the
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: kind of way in which we get lost in our
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: negative recursive thoughts virus, and it represents M is for
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: mental imagery or movie montages montages, And we're doing that
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: because there is one area of our brain that gives
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: rise to those that gets us stuck in rumination. And
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: then we're going to do EYE, which is for intense
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: interior emotions, and those are the emotions that come along
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: with those movie reels that we've seen a thousand times before.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: With our rumination, thought patterns, and tea, we're going to
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: tie it all together. So if you're ready, I'll start.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: I'm ready, and I just want to make sure everybody
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: who is here with us. This isn't just the Lisa Show.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: So Donna's going to walk us through these things. And
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I need to know that you're.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Doing it with me.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: And if I know that, then we can go on.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, And I like that too, because why are we
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: doing this work? People aren't, So when people describe their
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: movie montages, it's usually a series of images or reels
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: that you've seen a lot, replayed many many times. Your
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: brain keeps loading up the same things. They could start
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: as early as young childhood, or be earlier in your
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: life or one minute ago. And so we begin they
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: tell us a story. This area of the brain develops
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: a story about us, And so we start missed by
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: asking ourselves by sort of saying, okay, let me look
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: at those reels. What is being turned up over and over? Oh,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: here's my old story of how, and give you examples
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: how I'm always dismissed, or how there's never enough, or
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: how I'm never enough no matter how hard I work,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: or here's my old story of how my voice doesn't matter,
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: or here's my old story of how no matter how
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: hard I work, I have to work harder. So I
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: don't want to put words in your mouth. It is
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: very important, everyone, very important that the words you choose
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: are your own, because the words that your brain is
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: most likely to pay attention to are the words that
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: come from you. That's why when you're putting yourself down
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: or criticizing yourself, you listen so keenly because it's coming
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: from you. So choose words. Here's my old story, whatever
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: story those movie montages are pulling up for you from
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: across the lifetime of who you are or how others
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: feel about you with real granular specificity. The brain responds
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: to specificity here.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, and so this is good and I'll share mine,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: but thank you everybody you know, do this for yourself.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: I think the work domain, I think it really relates
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: to like try, rust and a sense of balance. I've
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: been in situations where what I keep thinking about is,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: you know, if I'm I'm you know, paying you X
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: y Z money salary in order to help me create
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: these results for my business, and if you cannot do that,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: or if your work isn't effective and I have to
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: step in and start doing significant parts of your job
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: for you, which then adds to my workload, this math
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: doesn't add up for me anymore. But then I feel
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: guilty and I go into well, okay, starting that I'm
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: doing wrong.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, thanks for stopping me because I started going
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: down the track, don you, because it's this culmination spiraling.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: So let's take a pause and let me just break
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: that down for you and see if this way, please,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: we're gonna try to get your m in this. Okay,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: montages the movie a little tighter. I'm going to try
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: to name that movie a little bit more tightly, Okay,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: And we're I'm just going to take a stab at it,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: and then you just refined from there because it has
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: to your words. So what I'm hearing is, here's my
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: old story of how I have to do all the
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: work for everyone all the time, exhausted, exhausted and angried. Yeah. Yeah,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: here's my old story of how I have to do
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: everything for everybody to get any results. Nobody listens. I
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: have to do it all, and it makes me feel
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: angry and lonely and afraid whatever. So start from the top,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: because now we're adding in intense emotions. You went ahead,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: you went right for it, Lisa Marie. You were like,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: here's my story, here my emotions, but try just just
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: meating it up a little bit. Here's my old story
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: of which makes me feel, but your words not. And
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: I mean to consolidate it.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: You know, if I'm in a relationship where there's an
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: agreement a you know it is a transactional type relationship.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: This is what we're doing, and that I feel like
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: the other person might not be you know, the right
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: fit or whatever. And then I do I can feel
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: the emotions are I can feel angry, I can feel
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: but also guilty, anxious, around What am.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: I going to do? How am I gonna fix that?
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Let's start from the top. Oh, from then, here's my
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: old story of how I have to do everything for
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: everyone and people mess it up and I have to
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: fix it or whatever which makes me feel okay, and
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: then stop after the feelings. Then we'll add in the
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: next step. Okay.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: The old story is that not everyone is trustworthy. People
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: who are are absolute gems and we can build and
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: grow together. But if I'm in a relationship with somebody
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: that I can't trust that starts to feel bad for me,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: then I have to fix it one way or the other.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: I have to fix it by stepping in and doing things,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: or I have to fix it by getting out of
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: that relationship.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: And that is hard for me.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: So it's like anxiety either way, no good choices. But
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: it's related to that trustworthiness.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: So here's my old story of how people I depend
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: on and always trustworthy and when they're not, I have
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: to fix it and that makes me feel angry and afraid. Yeah,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: and that shows up in my body. Where do you
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: feel it right now? Where you feel attention talking about this?
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I usually feel it like people can see meuseic like
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: my solar plexus area. Yeah, right where you're going ribs meat,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: that's where it goes for me.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, So started from the make your rumination code, here's
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: my old story of X, which makes me feel why
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: and shows up here. And then stop and try to
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: make it as tight as you can because you're doing
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: this because the next time you catch yourself ruminating about
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: this and we can talk about how to catch yourself,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: this is going to help you snap out of it.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: And so make it as visceral and tight as you can.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Shorter is better. Okay, you can shorten it after today.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: I want everyone who's doing this know that today it
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: may be fifty words, and that is beautiful. But every
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: time you use your personal rumination code through the missed framework,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: you're going to make it shorter and shorter so that
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: when you're activated, you see it very clearly. So go ahead. Okay.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: If I suspect I'm in a relationship with someone that
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: I can't trust to hold up there under the bar again,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: which is not always true, but if it happens, then
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: I feel angry, anxious, overwhelmed, exhausted, good and I tend
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: to feel it as a knot in my stomach.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Great, you tied it all together. So now I just
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: want to ask you a question. Okay, we like Spearman.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Wait, hold on, Donna, let's take a quick break.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Cliffhanger.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: And then on the other side of this break, you're
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: gonna ask me the power question. This is all going
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: to come together and everybody here with us and me
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: are going to be transformed because of it.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: How does that sound pressure? No, broad.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: We talk a lot on this show about the mind
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: body connection, and research keeps showing that metabolic health is
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: directly tied to mental health. I personally have been experimenting
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: with thoughtful intermittent fasting for both energy and cognitive clarity,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: but I know firsthand that fasting on your own is
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: really hard and you can end up.
• 43:14
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  Speaker 2: slash lhs. That is one last time is shopify dot
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  Speaker 2: com slash lhs. Okay, Donna, we're back, And just before
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: the break, you were working me through this beautiful missed process.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: I'm connecting with all these things, so our friends Lisa
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: listening to us, and now we're gonna pull it all together.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: You were about to ask me a power question. What
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: was it in doing the missed framework?
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Did your eminive thoughts, your thoughts I really feel just
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: a little more outside of you rather than inside of you.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: Did any part of your rational brain kick in and
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: start to see it from a more rational perspective rather
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: than feeling lost and stucked down inside to the vortex
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: of your relentless thinking.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: Can I tell you, Even just being able to put
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: that into words in a fairly succinct way, it was like, oh, yeah,
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: that's what it is. But what it also did do
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: it was made me reflect on the way that I
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: also have many deeply trustworthy relationships in my life and
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: also in my work life that I am so incredibly
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: grateful for and so it sort of made me see
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: the instances where it's different as like outliers, and that
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: was also comforting. That's actually what was going on inside
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: of me.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: So by seeing or missed pattern our personal code for rumination,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: we actually get those that area of the brain that
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: I talked about, the depaultment network. We get it to
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: stop firing on a loft circuit. It opens up and
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: starts talking to the rest of your brain so that
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: you can gain perspective. You have a lot of trusting
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: and loving relationships in work and life and home. Your
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: brain does something really powerful through neuroscience. It goes, oh, okay,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: you caught me. I have been trying to get you
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: to pay attention to this for so long, for so
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: long and process it because inevitably, for all of us,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: things that we keep coming back to, the reels that
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: reload and reload, they're trying to tell us something about
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: our early life experience. And in some way, that feeling
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: that you have to do double time when other people
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: are less than trustworthy, that you have that fear around
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: other people's untrustworthiness, that you have to fix it, that
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: it's going to cost you something is an old story.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: As you said, you started with, here's my old story.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: It means something you're saying that this rumination isn't linked
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: to the circumstance of what's going on in the present.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: It is, and it's linked to the past. It can
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: seek no fire from your past. It is asking you
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: to tend to that thing. We all grow up and
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: we may have had wonderful parents, but maybe in some way,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: as you know better than anyone as a psychologist and
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: working with clients and a coach, there's even you know,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: we understand trauma very differently now right. We used to
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: think it was you were locked in a closet, or
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: someone you know hit you or what have you. But
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: we understand the trauma in many forms can just be
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: growing up with a pretty critical parent. It can be
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: growing up feeling that you didn't matter, that no one
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: thought you were special or had your back. We have
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: twenty years of research on adverse childhood experience.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: So let me ask you this, and this is as
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: a psychologist but also a psychologist that practices coaching psychology,
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: because here's something I have been aware in our culture
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: that you know, this kind of conversation is happening and
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: things are getting tied back to early childhood trauma, which
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: is real and of course, like ACES questionnaire, I mean,
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: if there are a lot of adverse childhood experiences that
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: will show up in your life and it does need
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: to be dealt with, And the thing that I'm curious
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: to know is research on what you're saying, because like
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: for me, thankfully, Donna, this may surprise you, but I
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: have a strong amount of hidden privilege that I'm so
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: grateful for, which is that I my parents were incredibly trustworthy,
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: they were loving, nothing bad ever happened to me like
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: capital t trauma, you know, I mean, parents are both
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: had their personalities and but so you know what I
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: also am curious about is it must it always be
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: tied to some like deepness and is their research to
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: support that, Because so here's what I would say.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: We know that for individuals who have early adversity, could
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: be the little tea as you're referring to, growing up
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: with a hypercritical or neglectable parent, or parents divorcing. All
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: of these are in the ACE questionnaire. They're all well
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: researched in terms of the relationship. Two later, higher rates
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: of rumination. Most commonly related to higher rates of rumination
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: in his adulthood is growing up with a parent who
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: routinely put you down or critiques not prizing right, because
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: those voices live inside our heads. It's also true that
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: there is a lot Paul Conti neuroscientists says, no one.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: There's no no adult who hasn't had trauma. We have
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: trauma across our lifetime. We know that when trauma happens
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: earlier in life, it has more more vociperous effect on
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: the default mode network. And we know individuals who grew
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: up with little TA trauma or big TA trauma are
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: more likely to ruminate more quickly and more spontaneously. What
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: researchers see are what are called spontaneous spontaneous ruminative patterns,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: in which ruminating about one thing starts to get you
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: remating about lots of things right at the same time.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Danger.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, see that in fMRI scans. But we also see
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: that adult trauma, adult difficulty, adult adversity that begins to
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: fall into a certain pattern also begins to create ruminative patterns.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: So there are lots of different kinds of adversity that
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: we think of as grown up adversity that are related
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: to more rumination. One of them is growing up female
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: because their parents might have been very trustworthy, but growing
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: up female, growing up as a minority, growing up you know,
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: anyone across the who's gender fluid, any group that is
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: in any way marginalized, people of color, growing up female.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: So we know women ruminate more than men. What we
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: don't know how much of it is that areas of
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: our brain are more trained across evolutionary biology to be
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: more attuned to social difficulty, social threat, social harmony, and
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: the fact that women face more criticism for bodies, rains, voices,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: more sexual harassment, more of a sense of unsafety coming
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: through young adult years and into the workplace, and that
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: women are still earning far less than men, so on
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: and so forth. So that sense of untrustworthiness may not
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: be a childhood thing. Not all of us have a
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: story from childhood that is signaling to us into the
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: future to resolve our ruminutive patterns. But somewhere this story
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: of untrustworthiness has been the And what rumination tells us
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: is that this is the thing we want to pay
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: attention to. We get caught up in is she in
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: the right job, is she doing a good job? But
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: we're also being asked to go, where is my voice
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: around knowing whom to trust and what to say when
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: I don't trust someone? Because here's what I want you
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: to know everybody about rheumation. It robs you of your
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: true voice. It robs you of your true wisdom, It
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: robs you of your true knowing in watching women and
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: men find their true voice. The young med student who
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: couldn't figure out what specialty to go into and was
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: going to be a surgeon like his father, but was
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: miserable with his mentor who was critiquing him every day,
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: did this work around his ruminative patterns. He changed his
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: specialty to child psychiatry. Yeah, somewhere inside of you, Lisa Marie,
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: you know exactly what to do about these people who
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: are untrustworthy. You know exactly what to do. Rumination keeps
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: you in a relentless thought pattern, with this seductive promise
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: that you will figure out the answer, but the answer
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: doesn't come. That is not productive thinking. Somewhere in there,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: that thought spiraling is covering up the voice inside you
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: about whom to trust, what to say when you can't
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: trust someone, how to deal with the people you can't trust,
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: And when you begin to see that, and the patterns
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: fall away. I see people speak up with clarity, with knowing,
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: whether it's with their husband or friendship, and relationships change,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: and we change because when we speak up from that
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: uncovered self, there is no residual rumination anymore.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: That's powerful stuff, Donna. So let's land this plane. And
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: I'm also going to assume that the entirety of your
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: answer to my next question can be found at length
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: in your book called Mind Drama, The Science of Rumination
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: and How to Outwit your Inner Defeat. So the whole
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: answer we will find there. But the short answer I'd
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: love to hear is, so you're saying that when we
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: connect with our inner wisdom, when we connect the dots
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: and say, oh, here's why I have a tendency to
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: ruminate about XYZ, and this rumination has been obscuring the
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: fact that my real story is this, then it melts away.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: I am saying that, And then I'm also saying that
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: there are a hundred more strategies we follow. Of course
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: you're in my book. There are more steps. I'd like
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: to say that you could just do one thing, and
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: I can tell you you'll ruminate a less Yeah, but
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: we have to also go into our body and do
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: other things. Once you get this awareness that you're caught
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: in rumination, now we want to build up the brain
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: for higher level thinking or creativity so that we redo
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: those neural paths of the past.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: Perhaps the companion workbook to Mind Drama, the side sub
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: Rumination will be out at perhaps at some point, and
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: we could walk through all of the stuffs, because you're.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: They're all in mind drama. They're all in there, They're
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: all there. My Kindred Strategies, amazing book. This book is
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: very interactive. Get ready to have some fun. Okay, we'll
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: have some fun.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: But then one the one strategy can can you leave
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: us with an idea a recommendation for how to then
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: find that voice this like this, this is the true
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: thing about you, because it sounds like that's the full crump,
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: that that's the moment, and then of course many things
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: to do on the other side of that in order
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: to integrate everything.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: When we do the missed framework, really we come up
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: with a knowledge or an insight about a belief that
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: we've been carrying our whole lives that is not ours
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: to carry anymore. We start to realize this is a
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: belief that was put inside of me when I was
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: too young to sign on for it, where it was
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: I sure as a kid, if I believed that my
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: voice didn't matter, or you know that no one cared
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: what I had to say, or that I always messings
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: up or I had to work harder, we have that belief,
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: and we internalized it as children do, because we weren't
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: bold enough to make the essential leap that the problem
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: was not inside of us. We thought, oh, if I
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: can change this thing about myself, then the bigger problem
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: in my family or my world or at school will
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: go away, or with the bullies in the neighborhood, it'll
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: go away, and I'll melt away. The fixing is in me.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: And what this work does is it shows us that
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: underneath the old story is a self that signed on
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: for beliefs that aren't ours to carry anymore. When we
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: set those beliefs down, we begin to get an awful
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: lot of clarity around things we've been putting up with
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: that we shouldn't be putting up with, Things that we
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: want to be able to say to people that we
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: haven't found the courage yet. To say, and that voice
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: begins to bubble.
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: Up inside of us in ways that we all recognize
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: because it feels old and it feels true. So I
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: would say that that is really where people want to start,
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: and it's a very beautiful process of emerging from old
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: patterns that don't serve you anything.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: So then what you're saying is if you can connect
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: the dots and start to understand the origins of this
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: where you bought into some of these ideas that maybe
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: aren't true, then being able to see those as their
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: own thing will allow you to access maybe other things
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: that are true, that the inner wisdom, the the clarity
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: of no I do know how to handle this, or
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: I do have the abilities all of this problem. That's
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: what you're saying, Okay.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, And also if you walk into family reading and
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason there is a sense of just being
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: dismissed or or you know, I hear a lot of
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: stories about family of that and shrim people or dynamics
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: that are in their families that don't feel good to
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: them anymore. But once we do this work, instead of
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: leaving and ruminating about it per a week, we're able
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: to walk in and go Okay, I see this, I
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: see this. Here's my rumination code. Okay, let's stop, let's
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: cancel that where I have a lot of things in
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: the book called ballistic interrupters which our brain will listen to,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: so that once we code the story, once we see
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: the story, we can be in real time in a
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: high stake situation and we can literally say, oh no,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: not today, don't you're not going to breathe, I'm not
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: going in the story. Day, we step out of the story,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: we added aside, we set aside its corrosive quality, and
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: then our voice has been waiting to emerge all this time.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: It simply cannot rise in the face of a story
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: that doesn't serve you. I get it.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: This is reminding me of an incredible conversation I had
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: with legendary doctor Dick Schwartz. Ifs he's talking about this
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: concept that there's this essential self that you carry within
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: you all the time all and that are you know,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: exiled or activated, the parts of ourselves can can obscure that,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: and then what you're saying reminds me an echo of that.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: If you're able to manage the rumination differently, is really
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: just making contact with this part of yourself that's always
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: been there. It's just get lost in the noise.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, And we have so many different body practices to
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: help us to into that, and so many visualization practices.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Visualization turns out is extremely nourishing for your brain. Yeah,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: and helps you to regrow ner neural patterns around your
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: really are and that essential voice in a way that
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: is super protective for the brain but also very empowering. Amazing. Well,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: and I know.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: This is just a starter pack that you go to
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: so much more of this in great detail in your
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: book Mind Drama, The Science of Rumination and how to
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: Outwit Your Inner defeat And as remeter, we've been talking
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: to Donna's.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: Defeatist Defeatist Inner defeat.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: With your Inner Defeatist. Thank you, som. I appreciate it
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: and you'll look for it. Donna Jackson Nakazawa is the author,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: So Donna, this conversation has been fascinating and also personally
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: quite helpful. I've had my little mini therapy session with
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: you today.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: I love it. And are people who want you know
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: more of you or to keep up with you? Where
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: should they go?
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: I understand you have a substack situation going you can
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: find me at.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: Healing Together with Donna Jackson Akasa on substack, even find
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: me on Instagram. You can certainly find me on Donna
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: Jackson dot com, Donna Jackson Kazowa dot com. You can
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: see all my books there, and mind Trauma is failable
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: wherever books are sold, wherever you like to get your books,
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: whether it's your local independent bookseller shout out to them,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: or Target or Walmart or Amazon, It's it's everywhere. So
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Really enjoyed it.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Appreciate it.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: My gosh, that was such a fascinating conversation with Donna
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: Jackson A Kazawa.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: I feel like dots have been connected and I'm kind
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: of in a different place than I was when we
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: first launched into this episode. And I really hope that
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: you had the opportunity to go on this journey with
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: me and maybe connected some dots of your own. That
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: was a great time, And of course Donna talked a
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: lot about other skills and strategies that she has written
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: out for you in her book, and let's talk more
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: about what to do with all of this in terms
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: of your next steps and takeaways. And so you know,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: one of the things that I was honestly sitting with
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: is I was talking to Donna and as we were
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: kind of digging into that is how incredibly helpful and
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: important it is to have someone with a different perspective
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: walk you through things and also provide you with feedback
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: reflecting things back to you also, but like holding sort
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: of firm boundaries like no go back and do that again.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: And you know, hey, let's be real, We're living in
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: a day and age where we can talk about things
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: to our hearts content with GPT and my goodness, it
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: is absolutely easy to get into spirals, ruminate and try
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: to find answers and go down rabbit holes there. You know,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: not even just our own minds anymore. Now we have
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: like an external hard drive brain that we can do
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: this with. And so in some ways that is why
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: it is more important than ever to have human relationships
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: in your life, people to do this work with, to
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: provide the structure and support you need to get into
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: those to those deeper places. If you are interested in
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: connecting some of those dots with a clinician on my
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: team here at Growing Self You're so welcome to do that.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: It all starts with a free consultation to meet one
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: on one with a clinician on our team who would
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: be licensed as a therapist but also have specialized training
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: and experience as coach. So you also heard me and
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: Donna going back and forth around you know, Yes, our
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: thinking patterns, our core beliefs are generated by our life experiences,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: and sometimes that can be related to actual historical trauma.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: That there may be old unfinished business with the past
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: that is currently creating a lot of problems for you
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: and that needs to be addressed through clinical mental health treatment,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: particularly going into trauma focused treatment that can help take
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: some of that super reactive energy out of those old
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: memories and help your brain relax a little bit.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: So if you're.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: Dealing with unresolved, unmetabolized trauma, so to speak, it's going
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: to be a lot easier to get hooked into stuff.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: And that like negative thought spiral, that's part of the
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: symptom cluster of PTSD, quite frankly, and it is also
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: true that every single one of us has had all
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: kinds of different life experiences that have shaped who we are,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: how we feel, how we view the world, and it
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean that there is deep psychopathology attached to
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: that or that there is a need for clinical mental
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: health treatment. It is also very helpful to simply connect
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: your dots get insight into who you are and what
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: your values are and your personality and the way you're
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: wired and your life experiences.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: And how all this culinates to.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is why I am the way that I am.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: And now what are some things that I'd like to
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: do a little bit differently in terms of the stories
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: that I tell myself or the way that I navigate
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: my own internal experiences like you heard me and Donna
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: doing today. And that is absolutely one thousand percent in
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: the realm of fantastic coaching, and that's something that we
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: do at my organization as well. Therapist who are certified
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: as coaches who can work with you one on one
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: And in case I haven't talked about this recently, we
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: have a unique opportunity to grab eight sessions of excellent
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: coaching with a licensed therapist who is practicing coaching competencies
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: to walk you through a transformational arc that will help
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: you get clarity into who you are, what the obstacles
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: are that you might be facing how to name those,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: how to put them into language, and how to begin
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: developing a plan to shift the way you are operating
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: in a way that helps you get more of what
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: you do want and less of what you don't. And
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: through my organization, with a program that we have, you
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: could do eight sessions of this at a deeply discounted
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: rate like seventy for five or more percent off the
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: usual ticket price. Typically coaching with a licensed therapist who
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: is also a certified code, which is around two to
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: three hundred dollars a session. I mean it's more expensive
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: than like regular but mental health treatment focused therapy because
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: it's more specifically focused on outcomes. But we have opportunities
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: for you to do that at like forty nine dollars
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: a session at my organization. So come to growing self
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: dot Com slash Grow to learn more about those opportunities
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: and grab eight sessions of coaching at that discounted rate
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: that I was talking about. Growing self dot Com Forward
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: slash Grow. Okay, that is all for today. Magical moments
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: we're had. I can't wait to do this with you again.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: I'll be back in touch real soon with another episode
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: of Love Happiness and success, take care